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Have you heard of this thing called LIV Golf? I think it's called LIV.
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I don't know how you pronounce it, LIV. No, I don't. What's LIV Golf? LIV Golf.
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Okay, so You know about the PGA Tour.
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It's like the the main It's like the NFL of golf, right? No, golf.
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So So, LIV Golf is a competitor to the PGA that just emerged out of the woodwork. It's Saudi-backed. Exactly. It's Saudi-backed rival.
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And these guys are basically trying to It's like they're trying to spin up a new league by brute force.
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They're investing hundreds of millions of dollars.
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I think they pledged Yeah, yeah, me too. Big big swings.
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So, this is not This is the opposite of SPS, right? So, this is BDE.
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So, so basically they they put the Saudi public investment fund put in They pledged $400 million to start the league.
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I think they've even committed more than that now.
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I thought they offered Tiger Woods like $500 million or something crazy.
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News came out Yeah, they offered him $800 million and he said no.
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Which is like just kind of an insane thing.
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So, but they have signed other huge stars.
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So, Phil Mickelson, you know, Dustin Johnson, this guy, you know, Brooks Koepka or whatever who who recently won the the he he won like four majors or whatever.
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Cameron Smith, who's like this young star, he signed a $100 million deal.
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Dustin Johnson, $125 million deal.
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Phil Mickelson, $200 million deal.
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They offered Tiger and didn't get him yet.
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All right, what's going on, dude? Um How are you? Fantastic.
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So, I have something that I've been thinking about that I've been wanting to talk to you about.
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I started um Have you ever seen that video of Adolf Hitler at the at the German Olympics in 1936 when he's watching the Olympics and he's like rocking back and forth. Have you ever seen that?
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Bro, you can't be blonde-haired, blue-eyed, and coming on here starting off saying, "Have you ever seen my favorite video of Hitler?" No. No, no, no.
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Have you ever seen that video? the charts, bro. We're trying to go up.
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Have you ever seen that video of him like So, he's like basically he There's this video that I saw a couple weeks ago where he's at the Olympics and he's rocking back and forth and he's very clearly on drugs.
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Like some type of coke or something. Like he's on drugs.
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And I started getting curious about it and I started looking into this.
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And someone in the comments said that there's this really good book called Blitz, so I bought it. It's right here.
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It's called Blitz and basically it's a It's called Blitz: Drugs in the Third Reich.
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So, basically uh after reading it, Hitler and a ton of the Nazis, as well as just a ton of Germany, starting in the 1930s, like uh morphine, heroin, and meth was invented and they used to think that it was like a miracle drug.
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Doctors were like, "Take this meth. It makes you feel great.
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Um it's like this It's like a It's like a It's like a miracle drug.
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Like you you get euphoria.
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You want to stay up all the time. You'll eat less.
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It's this wonderful drug."
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And like it was a legal drug that Bayer, you know, b a y e r, the drug company now, they were like selling this [ __ ] and they would even put it in chocolates.
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And there was like a chocolate that you would eat that had a little meth in it and it was like always satisfied or something like that.
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And like it was so common and turns out Hitler was a junkie.
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He was getting injected with meth uh for years and that's one of the reasons why, you know, like when they were getting bombed the very last minute, he was like, "Oh, no, we're doing great."
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Because he had like these like, you know, he was like hallucinating, you know, he had like thoughts of grandeur, typical meth [ __ ] And I started thinking about this.
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What other stuff in history was supposed to be one way and be happening like one time, but turns out it was for a totally other reason?
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And I started looking into it.
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So, for example, Henry VIII, he was the Have you know what Protestants are? No.
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That's I've heard that word a thousand times.
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I knew you wouldn't know. Dude, Protagonist? No.
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So, like there's like the Catholics, and then there's the uh the Protestants.
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It's basically like if you're like an evangelical Christian, if you're a Baptist, if you're like all these other different types of Christian religions, you're probably a Protestant.
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Maybe by definition you are.
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Anyway, someone came up with it, like Martin Luther came up with it, and and and in the 1500s, the King of England, he basically like had like eight divorces because he couldn't have a kid. Like it was it was him.
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He was infertile, and the Pope was like, "Hey, you can't have these divorces anymore. This is bullshit."
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And he's like, "No, [ __ ] that then.
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We're going to switch to Protestant cuz that allows like, you know, me to get a divorce, and I can have all these kids."
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And so now like there's a billion Protestants in the world because he just turns out like wanted a divorce.
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And then like there's this like there's this like story that you you ever know how Barcelona people say Barcelona really funny? Like Barcelona. The lisp, yeah. Yeah.
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There's like this urban myth that the uh king of Spain had a lisp.
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And someone's like, "Hey, you know it's pronounced Barcelona."
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And he goes, "No, from now on it's Barcelona."
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Because, you know, that's just how I say it.
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That's just My first million. Yeah.
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Yeah, it's like you know, if Mike Tyson ruled the world.
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Uh and I was thinking about like what other stuff did we think that was going to be like, you know, was for this like grand reason, but it's really just like, you know, like the guy's dad said something.
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Like like George Bush invading like, you know, looking for weapons of mass destruction because like his dad was like, "You know, you're not strong like your brother."
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And like he or you know, Because he couldn't find the remote one time.
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Now he's got this complex.
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Or he had this like leftover like mission accomplished banner.
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He's like, "Well, we got to do something with it."
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You know, like what else like what else in history has been done just for like totally the opposite reason.
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I don't know, but I bet there's so much, like I think about this with food all the time when I see, oh, you know, uh you know, people like, oh, you know, that the active ingredient in Advil or aspirin comes from this like oak tree and like blah blah blah.
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I'm like, yeah, but how do we figure that out?
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Like, who was just gnawing on trees and was like, you know what, this one, I had a headache earlier and now I don't have it anymore, right?
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Like, all foods with like, oh, this one kills you, this one's good for you.
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It's like, uh okay, but like, you know, who were the testers?
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Who was figuring this out along the way?
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I actually think that that was probably like, what's the most fun time to be alive?
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Was then, when nothing when no one knew anything about anything.
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Like, you didn't know what was food and what was not food.
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Like, how much just random soil has been eaten by somebody being like, this has to be food.
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And then somebody else is like, you know, sees a chicken running by is like, no, I think under that feather under those feathers there's something there.
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Dude, there's all kinds of good stories like that. it.
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So, like, have have you heard about like the invention of LSD? No.
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The guy, uh he it was a European doctor, he was trying to like right?
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Yeah, he was just trying to make like, uh I forget what it was, but some type of antibiotic, like just something normal and he got a little bit of the of the [ __ ] in his skin, like he like touched it funny and he was like, oh my god, this is awesome.
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And then he like starts tinkering with it even more and he goes, all right, let's try this and he gives himself a huge dose and he starts riding home on his bicycle, he's like, nothing's happening, like this didn't work.
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And then all of a sudden it hits him and he like has the biggest trip of his life and then he like, you know, changes everything.
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Yeah, I feel like penicillin, there's a whole bunch of drugs that were discovered by by accident, for sure.
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Yeah, it's it's I don't I mean, I don't know where you want to go with this topic, but I don't want to go anywhere.
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I just thought it was interesting.
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This book, like I just been reading this book about drugs and like the Nazis and I was like, it's crazy.
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Like the book says that they at the time in the 30s and 40s when World War II was happening that something like 60% of German doctors were addicted to morphine and they were the ones like, you know, voting on what the laws were going to be around, you know, how these controlled substances are handled. It's it's it's crazy.
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It changed my It didn't change my perspective, but you know what I mean?
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It's just like a an interesting read.
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Let me tell you a interesting story.
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Have you heard about this math teacher in Florida? No. No.
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These stories can go one of two ways. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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Did the dog Was he on Dog the Bounty Hunter?
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I'm not I mean, this could go a bunch of different ways. Yeah.
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Is there a funny like viral video of him in a 7-Eleven? No, so I get this.
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So So Brandon was telling me about this. This is kind of amazing.
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So there's this guy Okay, so you know like um you know there's like kind of like school competitions where there's spelling bees or math competitions or whatever.
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So there's this math competition and there's this kind of strange thing going on where one small school, it's not a private school has won like 15 out of the last 17 of these math competitions.
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And people are like, "God, what is going on at like Buchholz High School?"
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And the story is kind of amazing.
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So there's this guy, Will Fraser.
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He's a he starts as a banker on Wall Street and he's doing like bond trading or something like that.
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And the guy is you know, this is like in the the 80s.
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He's like you know, this is the heyday of of of where you know, you've ever read this book like Liar's Poker and things like that.
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It's like the heyday of Wall Street, people making tons of money. Um he retires by 27.
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So he's made a bunch of money.
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He's like, "Dude, this is too stressful of a lifestyle." did he make?
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I don't want to do this anymore.
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I don't know exactly how much he made, but enough to retire at 27.
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So let's assume it's you know, like I would say 10 million at least. Okay. That's my guess. So he buys a Ferrari.
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He drives down to Florida.
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He's like just dreaming of like a slower, calmer life."
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He's like, "You know what?
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I'm just going to go to Florida, bought this Ferrari.
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I'm going to just play a bunch of golf, play a bunch of basketball, and I'm just going to hang out." Do Ferrari [ __ ] that. Yeah.
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For for a decade, he's, you know, that guy you see on like Tuesday at 1:00 p. m.
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just like hanging out at the park and you're just like, "How do you know You don't have a job? Like what's going on?" He's that guy. He does it for 10 years. No income.
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10 years, he's just chilling.
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And he plays a bunch of golf.
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And along the way, he's sort of like, "Yeah, you know what?
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Like I'm feeling a little aimless.
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Don't have the great you know, purpose in my life at this point."
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So, he's like he reaches out to a local high school and he's like, "Hey, um can I teach golf over there?"
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They're like, "Ah, sure."
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He comes over and teaches golf.
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He was like, "I like teaching actually.
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Even on Wall Street, I actually I I I liked teaching the young guys."
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So, he's like, "What What else?
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Can I teach like a finance class?
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You know, I'm a former Wall Street guy, made it big, retired.
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Can I teach a finance class?"
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They're like, "No, we don't have finance, but you can become a math teacher if you want."
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And he's like, "All right, I'll do it."
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And so, he goes and becomes a math teacher.
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And he walks in on day one and he's like, "Listen, let me tell you this right now. I don't need this job.
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You guys You guys give me any [ __ ] this will be my last day."
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And they're like, "Okay." You know, respect.
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And so, he gets One day, he's like checking his mailbox as a teacher and he sees this math competition coming up.
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He's like, "Oh, like that's cool. Let's try this."
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So, he enters into the math competition.
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They go there and they get smoked.
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They get fifth out of sixth place.
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So, they're second to last.
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And And he's like, "Dude, I couldn't even solve some of these problems. Like this was hard."
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But like the flip you know, the switch got flipped.
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The competitive switch in him gets flipped and he's just like, "Actually, I liked that competition.
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I miss the competition of Wall Street where it was just like completely dog-eat-dog and you were like high intensity."
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And so, he decides to do it again.
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And again, and again, and he and he he he goes and he they get fifth the next time. Then they get third.
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And they so on and so forth.
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And he basically decides that we are going to dominate these competitions.
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And that's exactly what's happening.
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Dude, isn't that the best when like 15 out of 17 isn't that the best when someone just like sees like a small opportunity and they're like no one takes this as seriously as we're going to take this. Let's do it. You know what I mean? I love that.
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Just like that cheerleading movie that we watched on Netflix that it's like they just like yeah, they take it to the the highest degree.
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Yeah, the one that you made popular.
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So the So the guy So people are like, "Dude, what's your secret?
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What are you doing differently?" blah blah blah.
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He's like, "Oh, I just took a different level of intensity.
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He's like it's just insane hard work."
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He goes, "You know, average math teacher gets 72 hours of classroom time with their students per semester.
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And then they hope that after school some of those kids come and they learn for an hour, you know, once a week or whatever.
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That's what they're putting in."
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He goes, "Oh, I just switched it.
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First, I took all the good math kids, I put them in the same class kind of like almost like, you know, like blended of age.
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But like he's like I put all the best people in the same class so they would compete with each other.
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Then we used our class time to start preparing for these competitions.
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Then I started creating summer camps where we could get 80 hours in 4 weeks.
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So the equivalent of a full semester of teaching in this high intensity thing.
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He's like, "And I just developed a program."
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Cuz they're like, "Are you the best at math?"
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He's like, "No, I don't even teach the advanced math stuff.
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Like one of my former students teaches like the hard stuff.
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I just build the program."
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He's like, "I put the high school students with the middle school students.
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And that because the middle school students sort of idolize the high schoolers and they teach down and then the middle schoolers rise up."
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He's like, "So I built this program where one alumni basically like the older kids teach the younger kids, the younger kids even teach the even younger kids.
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And we just put in way more time."
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He's like, "Then I started scouting like this is like, you know, Alabama football."
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So he'll go and he'll look at the scores of other schools and he'll find the high performing kids and he'll recruit them to his program.
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The reputation got built where they started winning.
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So, now parents are coming inbound and being like, "Please take my kid."
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Uh and he's like, "We only have so many spots. I'm sorry."
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And so, he's built this like talent pipeline.
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And not only that, they actually the talent pipeline goes even further.
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Now, companies like McKinsey and the big banks, Wall Street, they come recruit from his high school.
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The big schools, Ivy League schools come recruit from his high school because they want his students now.
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So, he built like a a platform for where they can go, which helps them recruit even better students.
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And so, like when COVID happened, What's that? Where'd you read this?
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It's just like The I think they So, it's been in just like the local Florida news for a while, and then I saw something Yeah, but what were you doing when Brandon sent me the article. Who's Brandon?
14:10
No, he sent this article from the Wall Street Journal or something.
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It was like paywalled, so I only got the first paragraph.
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I'm too cheap to pay for it.
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But, I was like, "Oh, what's the story?"
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And then I found all these local Florida papers that had that had the the rest.
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And so, um they said like during COVID, they were like, "Oh, you got to teach remotely."
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And he's just like, Uh oh, okay.
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Yeah, we're going to downgrade the intensity?
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He's like, "Hell no, I resign."
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And then he went to a church, rented out the church.
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He was like, "Hey, if you guys want to come and train here, we could do this."
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And 140 kids went and trained daily in his church during COVID when everybody else was had to lower their intensity, he ratcheted it up. old is this guy now?
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So, now he's like in his 60s.
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And so, he he's been doing this now for like, you know, a number of years.
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So, he took He was basically 27, he took 10 years off, so he's closer to 40, 10-11 years off.
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And then basically from 40 to 60, he's just been dominating this one thing.
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Uh isn't this incredible? This is incredible.
15:05
I think there's a few things. One, just the intensity.
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Number two, I think sometimes if you pick like a lot of people, including me, we want to move to San Francisco, New York, LA, and try to become like a medium-sized fish in a big pond.
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I think there's so much to be said about being the best or a big fish in a little pond and like you can make a name for yourself and have a way better life.
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Like this random dude is having so much more impact by creating a being like the guy for like this very small math contest versus, you know, rich he's probably way more fulfilled than being just like another hundred million dollar banker.
15:43
Dude, I I want to get diagnosed with a bad case of SPS.
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I want small pond syndrome.
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Like I I I am a huge believer in this.
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Dude, when I so I lived in Houston in high school and Houston I went to a big public school 5,000 kids and kids from all over Houston and basically um I my life was basketball. I loved basketball.
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And I remember a game in ninth grade um the varsity coach I was on the ninth grade team and I, you know, the the goal would be to someday be on varsity.
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And the varsity coach watching our game and for some reason I think I scored like two I had like two threes to start the game.
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And then all of a sudden the most athletic kid on their team decided like nah, this guy's not going to like see the hoop again.
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And he starts picking me up full court.
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Basically like from the moment I can move this guy's like in my shirt.
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And um you know, and I I can't I literally can't get by this guy.
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Like I'm trying to go left, I'm trying to go right.
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I cannot get by this guy.
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And I don't know what to do and I'm just basically like getting frustrated.
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So coach calls time out the the coach calls time out.
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The varsity coach walks into the huddle and I think he's going to give me this like epic advice.
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Maybe like that varsity advice.
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How am I supposed to get by this guy?
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And he just goes, you will never play varsity basketball. Oh my god. And I was like, what?
17:04
Thanks coach Hollingsworth.
17:04
And he's just like, if you can't handle this guy, you will never like he's cuz he's like, I thought you might be and now I see no.
17:13
It was like some motivational thing.
17:14
And And he just gave you a wedgie and walked away. Exactly. Exactly. [ __ ] nerd. Yeah, exactly.
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Like, "Hey, I'd like to report a bully." Yeah.
17:26
It's Is there a checkbox for faculty? But But he was right.
17:32
And in in the Houston pond, I was nowhere near athletic enough to be whatever.
17:34
Now, luckily, my parents uh my dad gets a job in in Beijing.
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We moved to China in the 10th grade. I go to China.
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First day, I start playing basketball.
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The You know Ask for autographs.
17:49
don't get protein over there.
17:49
Yeah, these kids don't get protein. Everybody's scrawny.
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Every I'm blowing by everybody.
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Varsity coach walks over.
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He's just like, "Hey, what's your name?"
17:57
Uh I end up being captain of the varsity team.
18:01
You know, I got a girlfriend.
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Like, my life changed for the better.
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Like, everything got better. Because I caught SPS.
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I got small small pond syndrome.
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And I was able to go be a varsity player over there. Captain of the team.
18:16
of a of a football team of a football team in rural Alabama with 100 students. They lived the life. Screw the big city. Live that life.
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You know what I'm saying?
18:26
And there was a part of me a foggy part of my memory that remembered like, "You ain't [ __ ] Do the man thing and squash that down.
18:35
Yeah, it quickly got washed away.
18:35
And like, I forgot and I thought it became like, "You're the [ __ ] You're the [ __ ] You're the shit."
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And that That's what you want to do in life.
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This guy This guy's doing it right.
18:45
I actually have this dream, too.
18:46
I was like, I just kind of want to retire and coach high school basketball.
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Like, I think that would just be a lot of fun.
18:50
And and and yeah, you know, this small pond thing, I think we're on to something.
18:56
I I've thought about this for a long time.
18:57
I thought about moving back to St.
18:58
Louis for a minute, but my wife wouldn't down.
19:00
But I was like, "Dude, I could just be the man here."
19:03
Uh you know, I could buy a million-dollar house and it would make the news.
19:05
You know what I'm saying?
19:07
Like, a million dollars in San Francisco or New York is a studio.
19:11
But I was like, it would be it would be one of the biggest purchases of the quarter. I would make the news. It would be awesome.
19:15
But, then I realized I you know, I don't want to do that.
19:24
Yeah, I I don't want to do that.
19:25
Uh Bro, What else you got?
19:26
By the way, I have I have straight fire today if you want uh if you want more. There's yeah. All right.
19:30
I've got fire, too, I think.
19:32
Did you see what I have in there?
19:35
Uh no, I don't even have the thing open.
19:36
Oh, well, [ __ ] Um well, you could Screw me. one. Well, okay.
19:40
So, I spoke to like a a bunch of different companies this week and they gave me all their revenue, all their profit.
19:50
And a few of them are interesting, and I could just like bullet point and quickly go through a few of them. You want to do that?
19:56
By the way, explain why does somebody, you know, why does somebody just give you all their revenue and give you all their profit, as you say?
20:03
Cuz it sounds like a unrealistic and b like you sort of like tricked them, but that's not the case.
20:09
No, I said give me Okay, so um I've got this like a community that I'm running that I'm not going to talk about yet, but it's like a CEO community.
20:15
And when they join, they tell me all types of interesting information so we can place them in the right group.
20:21
And I messaged eight of them and I said, "Hey, can I talk about you on the pod and can you answer these questions and am I allowed to reveal all of your information?
20:29
Well, all if I am I allowed to reveal the information that you gave me?"
20:33
And they said, "Yeah, sure." So, that's how I got it. So, nothing like crazy.
20:39
Um which one you want to do?
20:39
All right, I got a couple of them, actually.
20:43
Give me the most interesting one first.
20:45
Let's do uh okay, well, here's one that's actually not on I don't even think I put it on here.
20:49
But, have you ever seen those pedal taverns in um like Nashville and Denver?
20:53
It's like the bars that you like pedal with like a Is there they're honestly pretty obnoxious.
20:58
But, you know what I'm talking about? No, pedal what? What do you mean? I don't understand. tavern.
21:01
So, basically Like you like leave the suburbs of San Francisco, but in a lot of other cities, Denver, Austin, Nashville, like these like style cities, there's these things called pedal taverns.
21:13
They kind of look like um imagine a bar in the middle and there's eight people sitting on one side and eight people sitting on the other side.
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Now, imagine that being on top of a four-wheeled platform and you're pedaling that platform while you're drinking booze.
21:28
You've never heard of that?
21:30
But you're outdoors, right?
21:31
Yeah, outdoors, on the street. Yeah, yeah.
21:33
So Yeah, it's like a some party thing, yeah. Yeah, I get it.
21:36
The guy who created one of the first ones is in the group and his name's Pete and his business does He bootstrapped it from nothing just out of school.
21:43
He It's getting close to 8 million a year in revenue and just the pedal taverns do about 5 million a year in sales.
21:49
Quite profitable and they're using the profits to buy the real estate that their pedal taverns stay in overnight.
21:57
That's a pretty interesting business. Um let's see.
22:02
Another one is uh Have you heard of um Let's find another one.
22:06
Have you heard of You probably never heard of this.
22:07
So, here's an interesting one.
22:09
There's this business called The Peak.
22:10
It's ran by this guy named Brett.
22:11
So, it's a daily newsletter.
22:14
So, just like The Hustle, Morning Brew, whatever.
22:15
Mostly bootstrapped, only in and it's in Canada.
22:19
And so, every day it gives you the news you need to know about Canada, Can- Canadian news.
22:25
Uh only a team of 10, 90,000 new newsletter subscribers, not that much, and doing about 3 million in revenue with with a million in profit. Pretty good business.
22:35
A small team of 10, 90,000 subscribers, 53% open rate, 67,000 monthly podcast listeners.
22:39
The guys were like kind of good uh writers, but not really that good, and they just started like writing and cold emailing people and hiring writers and after two or three years, it's already at about two or three million in revenue.
22:55
So, what are they doing differently cuz that's more revenue per subscriber than most, I think. So Is that right?
23:01
Yeah, it's pretty good, but basically they just said that within Canada, like there's not that many there's not as many publications and B2B advertisers, soft software companies, they don't have that money places to advertise and so these guys have just done a really good job of getting the banks, the telecommunication companies, B2B software companies, all these like high-end enterprise companies to advertise with them. Got you. That's pretty good. Um Okay. Uh We'll do one more.
23:32
tell you about a company fine. You can go. Okay. Okay.
23:35
Okay, I want to tell you about a company that you may have heard of.
23:38
Have you heard of this thing called LIV Golf? I think it's called LIV.
23:41
I don't know how you pronounce it, LIV. Or live? Wait, LIV? Yeah, just LIV.
23:49
No, I don't What's LIV Golf? LIV Golf.
23:52
Okay, so you know about the PGA Tour.
23:55
It's like the the main It's like the NFL of golf, right? No, golf.
24:03
So So LIV Golf is a competitor to the PGA that just emerged out of Saudi Arabia thing. Exactly.
24:11
It's a Saudi-backed rival.
24:11
And these guys are basically trying to it's like they're trying to spin up a new league by brute force.
24:19
They're investing hundreds of millions of dollars.
24:23
I think they pledged Yeah, yeah, me too. Big big swing.
24:25
So this is not This is the opposite of SPS, right? So this is uh BDE.
24:30
So So basically they they they put the Saudi Public Investment Fund put in they pledged $400 million to start the league.
24:37
I think they've even committed more than that now.
24:40
they offered Tiger Woods like $500 million or something crazy.
24:44
News came out yeah, they offered him $800 million and he said no.
24:48
Which is like just kind of an insane thing.
24:50
So but they have signed other huge stars.
24:52
So Phil Mickelson, you know, Dustin Johnson, this guy, you know, Brooks Koepka or whatever, who who recently won the the he he won like four majors or whatever.
25:00
Um Cameron Smith, who's like this like young star, he signed a $100 million deal.
25:04
Dustin Johnson, $125 million deal.
25:06
Phil Mickelson, $200 million deal.
25:08
They offered Tiger and didn't get him yet.
25:12
But um And Phil can only be on It can only be on LIV and not PGA. Exactly.
25:18
So, it's a competitive thing.
25:19
So, PGA is like there's like, I don't know, uh 60 events a year or whatever.
25:24
And then there's like four majors.
25:24
What these guys are doing is like there's eight events and they all matter.
25:28
They're going for more of like the NFL model uh versus baseball, right?
25:33
Baseball has you know, almost 200 games a year and you know, they don't really matter, but there's there's sort of always something on.
25:38
Whereas the NFL is like there's like 17 Sundays or 18 Sundays and like they each one is going to matter.
25:44
So, that's what these guys are trying to do with the golf model.
25:46
Um and to like put this into context, you know, Tiger Woods in you know, has earned $121 million in all of his PGA winnings like over time.
25:54
I you know, obviously he makes more through sponsors and and you know, um other sort of like paid events and things like that, but just from the PGA, his lifetime I think earnings are $121 million.
26:05
So, LIV is coming out strong and basically giving these guys like Tiger Woods' lifetime money as a guaranteed contract instead of the way the PGA works is it's like there's a prize pool for every tournament.
26:17
There's $9 million for every tournament. The winner gets three.
26:20
Everybody else gets like a piece depending on how you finished.
26:21
And they just do that over and over and over again.
26:24
And so, they do 48 events a year and um and and so, LIV comes in and they basically are giving guaranteed money away instead of saying you have to win in order to be there.
26:35
And so, PGA makes like a billion and a half dollars looking at the number now. 1. 5. A little bit over 1. 5.
26:43
And you know, 85% of that is like their their tournaments and the media rights and ads and all that stuff that comes from that.
26:48
They have like a nine-year They're in year one of a nine-year contract. And then Mr.
26:52
Steal Your Girl comes in and is starting to just take these stars away and and basically is is trying to you know compete with them.
27:00
They also have like prize prize money as well.
27:01
And so they need you know they would need to generate like a billion dollars as well to sort of like have like a similar economics.
27:10
But what's the play here?
27:10
Is do like Middle Easterns watch a lot of golf? Is that the stick?
27:14
Is like this No, I I I I don't know if that's why like maybe like you know there's like that weird thing where like Russia really loves like women's basketball.
27:23
I don't know if you know this.
27:24
Like if you're a great women's basketball player you play college in the United States then you try to make it in the WNBA and the WNBA pays you basically nothing.
27:33
Like you know you'll make like 70 80k Yeah, like a shoe salesman salary.
27:37
And then you'll get like 300 400k for playing the off season in Russia. Yeah.
27:42
And everyone's like why does Russia care this much about women's basketball?
27:43
Like nobody asks questions and like yeah it's a little bit whatever.
27:46
I don't I don't know exactly what's going on there but um But that's like you know they disproportionately like that sport.
27:51
And so maybe there is something in in Saudi Arabia for this or it's just they have a huge amount of money and they see the business opportunity where PGA basically had a monopoly on this.
28:00
And if you can create a successful sports league these are worth billions and billions of dollars.
28:06
Like we both love the UFC. UFC sold for I think 4.
28:08
2 billion dollars um which in my opinion is Under.
28:13
now like very low undervalued for where it is and that's like the UFC is like fringe compared to NBA NFL like these major major major leagues.
28:22
What's more popular golf or or or UFC? Golf, right?
28:28
I think golf is not more popular but it generates more revenue more lame? Who beats up who?
28:35
A golfer with their club or a UFC fighter with his hands? I [ __ ] hate golf. I hate golf. I cannot stand golf. Golf's not a sport. Golf's an activity. Answer this honestly.
28:53
How much of your thinking at the end of the day boils down to who could beat up who? Most. Most.
28:59
I think that I think cuz that's like that's like something that we're all like uh like we're all afraid of.
29:07
Like the guy who at the end of the day is like, "Oh, I can kill anyone in this room with my bare hands."
29:12
He is uh I you know, he's the true the true dog. You know? He has nothing to fear. Somebody said this once.
29:21
I was reading like a NFL scouting reports.
29:23
Like there was a draft of four quarterbacks.
29:26
They're all like top prospects.
29:26
It's like, "Who's going to go number one? Who's number two?"
29:29
And the guy who does like the draft, he said this is a line that I thought was so badass.
29:32
He goes, "If they were all on vacation and going for a road uh you know, they they're walking out to go to the car, they would all throw the keys to Mark."
29:43
Like they would check the keys to Mark and be like, "Mark's driving."
29:46
And they were it was like this like alpha male thing.
29:46
And I was just like, "What was this analogy and why did I love it so much?"
29:50
Like if you just said that if it was like, "Hey, Elon, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates go out to dinner, um Who's paying?
29:59
Who's picking up the check? Yeah, yeah. Who ordered the Uber? Yeah.
30:03
Cuz none of these guys are driving.
30:05
Do you when you're in a room like at a restaurant, Who sits aisle?
30:09
How how what percentage of the time when you're at a restaurant do you look around and be like, "Who's ass can I kick and who's can I not?" Zero. 0%.
30:18
But I know that you do, which is why I asked you this question cuz it's hilarious. about that? Zero. 0% of the time.
30:25
Dude, I can I cannot stand golf.
30:25
Any sport that you wear khaki pants to to like play, it's not a sport. That's not a sport. It's an activity. It's a hobby.
30:35
It's checkers, but it's not, you know, like It's barely a job if you have to wear khakis. It's barely a job. Yeah.
30:44
Like I sported Sport is out of the question.
30:48
like khakis and a college shirt.
30:48
That is not that's I mean that's not a sport.
30:52
Like you you don't sweat. It's an activity. It's a hobby.
30:56
Uh this is amazing though.
30:56
I I I don't Like let's get rid of the Saudi Arabia thing.
31:02
Uh I think it's pretty cool.
31:02
But if you're Phil Mickelson and you have [ __ ] you money hardcore and Saudi Arabia who has, you know, a lot of human rights issues offers you this, what do you do? Do you take it or not?
31:15
So you double your net worth probably for him.
31:18
So I think you can't take it alone in a vacuum cuz you're not trying to go sit on an island doing nothing uh by yourself and like lose all your relevance.
31:27
You lose your future earnings if you do that.
31:28
But you say what I do is I say to them, "Look, I'm in if you can go get 40% of this list to join."
31:37
And you could tell them "that Phil's in if you're in."
31:39
And I would basically say you need to sweep the and a critical mass of us so that this is relevant, that this is considered the top class.
31:48
I'm not going to go play in the B league or the D league uh by doing this.
31:51
And I would tell them that and I would say I'll I'll do it.
31:55
You're going to have to cut the fattest check of your life and you got to go get 40% of this list.
32:01
So there's a there's a price that you would take for sure. Oh, of course. Of course.
32:04
If you know, if somebody said, "Hey, you got to go do this podcast on on Android."
32:09
And I'd be like, "Is Android even Is there a podcast player on Google?"
32:13
And they'd be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's we're we're putting a lot of investment into it." I'd be like, "All right. All right, I'll do that.
32:19
I'll I'll take this podcast to SoundCloud.
32:20
I'll I'll take it to the to the Google Play Store.
32:25
But I'm going to need to see seven and a half million dollars."
32:29
That's what I would say about this podcast.
32:30
I would I would move this podcast for seven and a half million dollars. That's my price.
32:33
There's there's a price to pay to to a [ __ ] I'm down.
32:35
But uh So, we actually were going to do this.
32:39
So, at one point in time, I had a startup that was based on like streaming video games.
32:46
And Twitch was the like 900-lb gorilla in the room that was like It was the big streaming platform, and we were just like we were trying to build a tool that worked on top of Twitch.
32:54
Like, streamers could use it when they use Twitch.
32:58
And it was working, and every day we'd come in to work and we'd work really hard on this tool, but like there was definitely a part of us that was like, "Dude, how did we end up here?
33:03
We're making this like tool for Twitch streamers that like is free, and then we're hoping that we can like after they all use it, then we might be able to monetize this other way.
33:13
We're just like this guppy in this like in the in the in the ecosystem in this food chain.
33:18
We're like that little fish that like swims in front of the whale's nose.
33:22
Like, whatever that thing is called. Like, we're that."
33:23
And I was like, I looked at Furqan and I was like, "Man, don't you just want to be the whale?"
33:28
And he's like, "I just so badly want to be the whale." And I'm like, "Yeah. So, what can we do?"
33:32
He's We just like made We went to the room. We said, white board.
33:35
We're like, "How would you like compete with Twitch itself?
33:37
How would you just beat Twitch?"
33:40
And I was like, "Dude, look at the numbers."
33:41
So, we we like ran the numbers.
33:42
We're like, "Twitch has this insane power law where you can see that the top, you know, X hundred streamers.
33:50
If you take the top 300 streamers, they basically make up all the viewership.
33:54
All the all the meaningful viewership.
33:55
Like, you know, I don't remember what the exact ratio was at the time, but like any power law, it's like, you know, the top 1% or whatever make up a very significant portion of viewership.
34:03
So, let's say make up some numbers.
34:04
Let's say the top 300 made up 50% of the viewers at any given time.
34:10
I was like, "So, Twitch is worth Twitch sold for a billion dollars like a decade ago or whatever, yeah, 7 years ago.
34:14
It's probably worth five, seven billion dollars now.
34:18
You're saying that if we could take, you know, half of that half.
34:23
If we can get to a quarter of that, we'd be worth a bill you know, we might we might have the equivalent 25% of the traffic.
34:28
We'd be worth, you know, a quarter of what they're worth, which is like a billion dollars today.
34:33
How much money would it take for us to throw at those people? Right?
34:37
Go get 25% of that through top 300.
34:39
How much money would it take for us to go throw at them to be like, "Come join our new thing." ?
34:44
And we like game theory the whole thing out.
34:45
We're like, "All right, this guy makes this much today.
34:48
We basically need to offer him like 10 times what he's making today."
34:51
How much do How much do do some of these guys make just on Twitch?
34:54
So, shortly after that, the contracts exploded.
34:57
But, like at that time, the top guys were making like single-digit millions per year off Twitch.
35:03
So, like let's call it between 1 and 5 million.
35:07
Uh plus there's some endorsements you don't really know how to track and you know, they they sell some amount of t-shirts. It's hard to know.
35:11
Uh and then it sort of exploded.
35:13
Guys started signing like, you know, 10, 20 million-dollar uh deals.
35:16
But, they're they're they're like multi-year deals, 3-year deals, something like that.
35:20
So, you know, they're making 6 million guaranteed or something like that, 5 million guaranteed, 10 million guaranteed.
35:25
So, uh that was like the kind of like our what our estimates were for the very, very top guys.
35:32
We thought, "Okay, so how much would we need?"
35:34
And it's like we basically did the math and we're like, "Okay, I think you need I don't remember what the number was today, but let's call it let's just pretend it was 150 million.
35:42
We need 150 million dollars to go throw at them."
35:43
But, it's like if I told you you could go raise 150 million dollars saying you needed 150 million dollars in order to pay the streamers and tell them, "Bail on Twitch, come to our platform.
35:53
And when you come to our platform, you're going to bring your audience and we're going to make all this money eventually through other people coming."
36:00
You get this much guaranteed.
36:00
All you have to do is just continue to stream and you have to promote it in this way and let us promote you. Can I make a prediction?
36:07
need 5 million to build this platform.
36:09
My prediction is that would never work.
36:11
I don't think that works. Okay, so tell me why.
36:12
I'll tell you how it how it obviously it didn't happen.
36:15
So, so you know, you're partly right.
36:16
But, tell me why you think.
36:17
Well, I know that you didn't really try to do this, but or I don't know in earnest.
36:21
I don't know if you you didn't raise 150 million dollars.
36:23
I think maybe the PGA Tour could work. Maybe.
36:25
But doing this for consumers, you need to have like a brand and you need to have some magic about it.
36:32
It's kind of like you know, even if you put all of like the resources into creating a boy band, like sometimes that [ __ ] just don't work.
36:41
Even though like everything like everything on paper it's like, well, we got the the blonde hair kid, we got the mixed race kid, we got the the dancer, we got the singer.
36:50
Like on paper this checks out.
36:52
You know, like this should work. You know what I mean?
36:53
We should be popular in Korea by this point.
36:54
And it's just there's there's no magic, right?
36:56
It It [ __ ] just happens.
36:59
And then like you have some like, you know, kid who just like sings a funny song and makes a joke about like wearing a cowboy hat and he gets hugely famous like Lil Nas X or something. It [ __ ] just happens.
37:08
And I think that there's like a bit of magic that probably would be missing out when you're cuz with consumers it's quite challenging to like grab their attention.
37:16
It's like getting a a cat to play with something.
37:18
It just Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Right.
37:22
So So So I do think that that that's part of it, but there have been instances where people have thrown money at the problem and it actually worked, right?
37:29
For every Quibi where you just raise a bunch of money, you go try to do the thing, it doesn't work.
37:34
For every one of the every 10 of those, there's one where you're like, no, actually they did kind of just brute force their way in.
37:39
I don't know if you remember this, but when TikTok first launched, TikTok was lame as hell, dude. TikTok was lame as hell.
37:46
It was pigeonholed as like the lame version of musically, which was a pretty lame thing.
37:51
It was like 12-year-olds lip syncing videos. And now TikTok is huge.
37:55
And what one thing that happened in between, I remember meeting a guy and he was like, yeah, you know, TikTok is going to spend a billion dollars marketing the app?
38:02
Cuz I was like, dude, there's billboards in San Francisco like at bus stops to download TikTok.
38:07
I was like, do they really think this is going to work?
38:09
And we had an intern uh not an intern like a like a kind of just like a junior guy who worked for us.
38:15
He was in ninth grade and he worked at our company.
38:16
And I was like, he he started mentioning TikTok.
38:20
And I was like, is TikTok actually a thing?
38:21
He's like, yeah, you know, we just kept hearing about it, kept hearing about it, kept hearing about it.
38:25
And then they started just paying all of the top YouTubers and Vine people to just make TikToks. It worked.
38:31
you know, eventually it just worked.
38:33
Like it was like, we all think it's lame, but like we all kind of started to use it.
38:37
And then sure enough the lame thing fell away too by the end of it and it like, you know, became like a pretty mainstream thing.
38:42
Like TikTok really did brute force their way down.
38:43
They did a bunch of other things right, good product, great algorithm.
38:46
They did a bunch of other things right.
38:48
I'm not saying they didn't do that.
38:48
But it's not like they started with this like brand love and authenticity and like loyalty and things like that.
38:55
So let me tell you how this this uh Twitch thing played out.
38:56
So I had a hunch that you might be right. So I approached Discord.
39:01
And I said, hey Discord, do you want to buy us?
39:03
And they're like, uh maybe, who are you?
39:05
And like what do you want to what do you do?
39:06
And I was like, oh, we do this thing today, but here's what we would do with Discord.
39:11
We would help you compete with Twitch. You have brand love.
39:12
Like Discord's one of the most loved brands in gaming.
39:14
It's like you have the brand you have brand love, but you don't do this today.
39:18
We will build the platform and like we can use this strategy to do this.
39:21
And they were like, well, okay, this is kind of like a crazy big pivot idea.
39:24
Like respect the audacity and things like that. What role? know. CEO.
39:30
And you said, hey CEO, I'm Sean, this is what I do.
39:32
Can I come to your office and pitch you?
39:34
And then you went to the office and told him that or you told him this all Exactly. Exactly.
39:38
Why did he take your meeting?
39:40
at the end of it at the end of it his his take was basically like, we will acquire you if you want.
39:44
Uh I don't know if we'll pay the most.
39:46
So, you know, that's that's I don't know if the deal will happen.
39:51
Um and I don't know if we would do this, but the fact that you can come in here and whiteboard this on a wall makes me want you to like come here and do things.
39:58
And like and and his like takeaway That's the biggest [ __ ] artist thing I've ever heard of and you almost pulled it off. What was the guy like? He's amazing. He's a young guy, right?
40:07
He's like a young nerdy dude. Citron, yeah.
40:10
I was like I I I never met Zuck, but I was like the way he talked about their product, the strategy, and like his like com like confidence, his like quiet nerdy confidence, I was like, "Oh, I don't want to compete with this guy and I see why they've kicked everyone's ass.
40:21
Like, this is like this guy's really smart and just really uh like has a point of view about the way this needs to go.
40:30
And like it's a simple, it's understandable, it's different.
40:33
And I just feel like he's going to execute on that.
40:38
Um I think I'd gotten a warm intro through his investor, his lead investor.
40:41
I told his lead investor, "Hey, we're thinking about selling."
40:44
But I I went to him and I was like, "Hey, we're thinking about selling.
40:47
Would you do this deal or not?"
40:49
And he was like, "Well, you should first talk to the Discord guys." And I was like, "Great.
40:52
You know, that's exactly what I was hoping for."
40:53
You know, cuz I I just need to create a bidding war of some kind to get the, you know, best deal possible.
40:58
So, can you make that intro?
40:59
So, he just emailed him and was like, "Um you guys should meet."
41:00
Uh like, you know, "Here's his email."
41:03
He's like, I think he warm intro'd, "You should meet."
41:06
And then I just said, "Hey, I'd love to come by the office today and like uh you know, 40 minutes I'll sketch out what I have in mind and like, you know, you can decide if I'm That's so funny.
41:16
or if I'm genius or I'm nuts and you can decide if you're first I don't know what I said.
41:21
Yeah, he was just like, you know, "Would you like to come like be one of the like C-suite type people?
41:26
Cuz I don't think we're going to do that plan that you outlined, but I like you."
41:30
You know, this is like, you know, there's not Uh I don't I don't know we didn't get that Dude, this is how which you can be a leader.
41:36
Everyone needs the confidence of a Sean Perry. This is a great story.
41:38
This is um proof that you can just create [ __ ] out of thin air. Value.
41:44
Yeah, you can create value out of thin air.
41:47
at my last startup the the best thing I did ultimately in that in that company was I did right by the team and the shareholders of like at the end I put my best foot forward to try to get us the most value we could.
41:56
Um that was like, you know, of all the things I did that was the best one.
42:02
And like I tried to do many other things.
42:03
Well, I tried to find product market fit, tried to scale, tried to hire a great team.
42:05
And I did some of those okay, some of those poorly.
42:08
But the one thing I did great was this this process.
42:10
Let me let me finish the story here.
42:11
So, then So, I'm like, "Okay, these guys don't want to do it, but maybe we could still do it."
42:16
And so, we start trying to set up a meeting and I realized pretty quickly, "Oh, you have to do this as one You have to do this as like a coup, cuz it's kind of like a rebellion.
42:27
And the I was like, we need to do two things.
42:29
We need to wait till people are pissed off about something that Twitch does, which big companies will shoot themselves in the foot.
42:34
They'll come out with policies, they'll they'll make some statement, they'll change some feature, they'll change the revenue split, and people get annoyed.
42:39
I was like, "So, we need this capitalize on that."
42:41
And then secondly, we need to get everybody all at once.
42:44
You know that movie that's out there people like every everything everywhere all at once?
42:47
That's how I was like, "That's how we need to do this.
42:49
We can't just get We can't just slowly negotiate one by one.
42:52
It won't feel like there's enough momentum."
42:54
And so, I was like, "We need to do this at Twitch's big conference where all the streamers will go to.
43:00
All the big streamers go."
43:01
Cuz most big streamers, they don't leave their house.
43:02
They're like They're like me, but they actually have like, you know, they're actually you know, rich and famous from their streaming, but they can't leave their room. That's like their job.
43:10
And so, they they go on vacation very little.
43:12
They take very few days off.
43:14
The one thing they do is they often go to TwitchCon cuz they can meet their fans and it's the big event.
43:19
So, I was like, "We need to do like a dinner the day before the day of or the day after the conference.
43:22
Probably the probably the day before."
43:24
I was like, you know, "This might be the worst time cuz they're going to be up in, you know, the Twitch kind of like ecosystem, but it's the only time we can get them all in the same room."
43:29
I was like, "And we'll lay out our case, which is basically, look, you guys are going to make stupid money.
43:36
If you all are in, there's no risk to any of you individually, because you're If you're all there, this will actually work.
43:41
And see, like you don't have to be play by Twitch's rules anymore.
43:44
Like you have, you know, say in this thing."
43:48
I can't find this client info.
43:50
Have you heard of HubSpot?
43:50
HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application.
43:56
Every team can stay aligned.
43:56
No out-of-sync spreadsheets or dueling databases. HubSpot, grow better.
44:04
Dude, there's this like there's this like famous meeting that happened in in Atlantic City in like 1930s and that's when they it was all all the mafia guys they got together and like Al Capone and all these guys and that's when they like formed like the syndicate or whatever, you know, like the mob and like, you know, it's us versus everyone.
44:17
That that's basically what you did.
44:19
You had like your little mob meeting and that sounds awesome. I I didn't do it. I wanted to do this. I didn't even get there. Why?
44:25
Because there was one thing that happened and when we ended up getting acquired by Twitch uh and it was like, "Hey, let's grab a drink. We'll celebrate."
44:31
So we go to the first time I met him like other as in the office.
44:36
And we go to this bar and you know, we're talking about stuff and I was just like, you know, uh I was like, "What do you think's the How would somebody beat Twitch?" And he's like, "Hmm." He's like thinking.
44:44
He's like, "It's pretty hard.
44:46
We do have like a pretty good business and like, you know, it's hard to compete against these like marketplaces once they get big."
44:52
Did he know about your meeting? know, you could No, no.
44:55
So I go I go I go, "We had an idea.
44:57
Uh I don't know if this would have ever worked.
44:58
We got very close and we didn't pull the trigger ultimately.
45:00
Uh but I always wondered like would this have worked?" And I told him the idea.
45:06
He goes, he goes, "Yeah, we've thought about that.
45:08
Like that Like I don't want to quote him, but like the the gist of what he said was, "If you were going to do it, that's the only way to do it.
45:17
But we knew that and that's why we started signing exclusive contracts with all these guys and specifically exclusive contracts that don't line up.
45:24
So we would make one expire in June and another expire in January.
45:27
Another one expires in Right. the following year.
45:32
He's like, "So that nobody could ever like they're they're all off cycle payment all off cycle contracts so that nobody could come and like, 'Oh, they're all going to be free agents and we we sign them all right away.'" Tiny ass detail. Tiny detail, right? And I was like, "Wow."
45:45
And then sure enough this actually did end up somebody did try to do this.
45:48
So uh Microsoft came out with this thing called Mixer and they went and they tried to get the top streamers.
45:52
They gave Ninja like, I don't know, some stupid 20 30 million dollars to come stream on Mixer.
45:56
He said yes cuz he's like, "Dude, if I'm making four or five on Twitch and these guys will give me 30 guaranteed um to go sit here for 2 years. All right, I'll do it.
46:05
And they tell me like this is integrated with Xbox, it's going to like drive me a bunch of new viewers. Cool.
46:10
And then they tried to get Shroud and tried to get a bunch of others, but they did it too slowly.
46:13
And so So this attack did actually end up happening company went out of business, didn't it?
46:21
Yeah, cuz they couldn't get the critical mass.
46:22
They couldn't get enough people to say yes.
46:24
Um But like this did happen.
46:26
Like the Chinese streaming platforms tried to do it.
46:28
Like a whole bunch of people tried to do this against Twitch at the same time.
46:32
And Twitch did a you know, a fairly good job of not only this off-cycle contracting, but also figuring out it's crazy.
46:38
There was like this this uh this like theory which was how many of your favorite streamers need to move before you move?
46:46
And so they looked at like, okay, if I'm a viewer, if I spend 100% of the time just watching Sam, and Sam leaves, okay, I have a high likelihood of leaving.
46:54
But as long as I can get you to watch like four people, the odds of all four leaving are very low.
46:59
And if if one leaves, I'm like 95% chance to just stay.
47:02
How about the fact that they probably hired some like MIT like rocket scientists, and he's like thinking for years like I'm going to I'm going to help get man to Mars, you know?
47:10
I'm going to help I'm going to be part of saving the world, the human race.
47:14
I'm just a little small part of this, but I'm helping.
47:20
And he gets his job offer from SpaceX and it's 135,000.
47:23
And then he gets his job offer from Twitch and it's like 140,000.
47:26
And he's like, And they got free lunch though.
47:31
Like you know, like it's it's like the office is down the street from my house.
47:36
You know, I can do I can this this space thing will always be here.
47:38
You know, like their office is beautiful.
47:44
And then they take that Twitch office, and then they spend the next 8 years of their lives, and the only point is figuring out how to make it so a streamer can click a button, and like a cat pops up on their shoulder like like an emoji. You know what I mean?
47:56
Or it's like, how do I just make it so like on Monday Night Football the first the the down line the yellow line moves perfectly with like the you know, how do I do that?
48:06
You know, space will always be there though, but like how do I get this like first Yeah, I'm just imagine someone like dedicating their lives to that.
48:12
That that sounds horrible to me.
48:17
That is um not far from the truth and in fact some people try to use that to their advantage.
48:22
Um like you know, Steve Jobs did that thing where he's like recruiting John Sculley or whatever he's like, you know, when are you going to stop selling sugar water to kids and come like help change the world?
48:33
And uh uh Scott Harrison the CEO of Charity: Water he's like I remember he came to Silicon Valley he was recruiting for Charity: Water and I was like, how do you recruit from like Google?
48:41
You're this he was trying to hire somebody from Adobe I remember.
48:45
He's like, yeah, she makes four times as much as I'm going to offer.
48:46
I'm like, how why would she take a like a huge pay cut like that like four X less?
48:50
He's like, I just got to hope that she wants to do something that actually matters. I was like, well, okay.
48:56
And he actually did succeed in recruiting a bunch of really interesting people.
48:59
Um but yeah, you know, it does happen like when you're at these companies it's like, what percent of your life goes towards like being like you know, can we get you know, chat engagement up a point two percent?
49:12
Like can we get the uh you know, if I add this emoji of this like you know, bouncing cat like are you 34% more likely to come back next week?
49:22
Like you know, there's a lot of life that comes down to you.
49:26
If you work a big tech company, you're working inside of a slot machine and you're looking at this like person sitting down on the stool and you're like, can I get another four quarters out of them?
49:34
Like what do I need to let's hey, make that light flash over there.
49:38
Hey hey, cherries you got to flash. Yeah, that'll do it.
49:41
wife you know, went to this fancy uh Ivy League school.
49:43
She's this brilliant woman and she was at Facebook when we started dating and she was telling me what she do. She's like, I'm a PMM. What's that stand for?
49:51
Product Marketing Manager.
49:53
And I was like, "What's that mean?"
49:54
She's like, "Oh, well, we just help people um like we want more people to use Facebook."
49:57
I'm like, "Oh, are you guys like the thing that puts like the jet above India so like they get free internet access?"
50:04
She's like, "Oh, no, not really." Um well, what do you do?
50:07
She's like, "Well, you know, I create um different products to help people to use Facebook."
50:10
I'm like, "Okay, but what do you really do?"
50:13
She's like, "I'm uh making it so you could put a sticker on your picture and more people will spend just a little bit more time on this app." And I'm like, "Oh, okay.
50:23
Yeah, you should quit, right?"
50:25
And like that's That's what she quit. She's like, "Yeah."
50:27
And went and did something that actually she cared about.
50:29
But uh yeah, I remember hearing about that.
50:31
I'm like, "Oh, that's why you went into debt for all these universities.
50:34
And that's why you did all that was so you can, you know, walk around the Facebook campus for like 3 hours a day and make like a sticker of like Poo Gene the cat or whatever the [ __ ] that thing was called.
50:45
You remember that thing, Poo Gene or What was that thing?
50:47
It was like a It was like a Japanese cat.
50:52
No, I know what you're talking about. It was called like Poo.
50:53
Remember how Facebook like they they would have all these like Japanese cartoons?
50:56
There was like that dog with his tongue hanging out. I don't remember. It was a thing. It was like Poo Gene.
51:01
It was like a cat that was Asian and like it was like a series of stickers that Yeah, it's it's the thing in Snapchat that that dancing hot dog which has been seen more than like any cartoon or animation ever.
51:11
Uh it's been seen like 10 billion times or like 100 billion times or something like that. It's like yeah.
51:18
This hot dog is actually more popular than It's like the stupidest way to tie my reminds me of the that TV show Silicon Valley.
51:24
One of the apps that they said was amazing was Nipple Alert and it alerts you of erect nipples uh in your vicinity.
51:30
I'm like, "Ah, this sticker thing. That's Nipple Alert. Sounds good." Yeah.
51:36
Honestly, when I was there I when I was I I didn't think it was like, you know, a waste of sort of time and energy in that sense. Like I don't know.
51:44
Maybe even now that I'm older okay because Twitch is like this is like this cool subculture.
51:48
We're nerds, no one likes us, we finally have a space that we can do this stuff.
51:51
Facebook, I think it's different.
51:55
And I respected the game theory of it.
51:55
I was like when this whole like contract thing was going down and they were like, you know, how much basically the question of how much should we bid?
52:02
I was like I don't know, you know, like it's like in sports there's like this moneyball movement where you're trying to figure out the value of a player and if you can accurately forecast the value of a player you have an edge in winning in the in the in the league.
52:16
The same the same thing is true now for all these like big media platforms that are like in in Twitch's case here, they were bidding for content.
52:22
So they were bidding for for this.
52:23
And you know, I went and met with people or like you know, talked to people who are at Netflix and it's like, "Hey, how do you decide how much to spend on the production of this or how you know, how do you figure out if it was worth it to spend, you know, whatever $100 million on House of Cards?"
52:37
And like and you go there and you meet you know, you meet the guy who's doing that same thing, right?
52:40
Like the brilliant data scientist whose like job is to like AB test the thumbnails of, you know, like the the new Garfield movie to figure out which one is going to lead to higher engagement like lower churn.
52:53
And it's like yeah, you know, you're you're AB testing thumbnails for for you for for Netflix and YouTube and all this stuff and like, yeah, that's like it kind of feels like, you know, bringing a gun to a knife fight type of thing.
53:04
Like you're you're you're Damn, like really this is where all the stuff goes. it's a scale.
53:09
It's not binary, it's a scale, you know?
53:11
And so for some companies it's like, "Oh, no, this is just way too lame."
53:15
For others it's like, "Ah, this got a little pinch of lame, a little half a cup of lame, but like it's mostly pretty cool."
53:19
You know what I'm saying?
53:21
Netflix, I actually think that's cool.
53:23
It's like, "Oh, I'm giving the world a little bit of entertainment."
53:24
Facebook, it's like, "I'm just making people hate themselves."
53:29
Yeah, the thing that I the way I ended up thinking about it was um like do I matter here?
53:34
Like uh if I left like who cares?
53:39
I I call this the Jenga law.
53:41
Like if you remove this block from the Jenga tower, tower's still there.
53:45
Okay, guess that wasn't a key block.
53:47
Like you know, sure we'd love to have it there.
53:48
It's more better if it's there, but like Nah, nobody really cares. Believe this.
53:52
Like if I don't really matter here, then like it's very hard for me to get excited.
53:56
And that's kind of an ego thing, but it's also like an impact thing.
54:00
Like if I at a startup, like I can I can just by myself create a product, give value to customers that didn't exist, and I can capture a huge amount of value.
54:10
And at a big company, I'm neither the key person creating the value, nor the key person nor the person who captures any of the value, right?
54:17
Like your value capture inside of a company is is is fixed.
54:19
Like you you get paid what you get paid in most cases, you know, aside from like maybe a bonus that you could get.
54:25
Um whether your product succeeds or fails, which is why a bunch of products fail or go really slow inside these companies cuz it doesn't matter.
54:32
You don't get You don't get a prize if it works.
54:35
Uh you know, you get you get praise.
54:37
And so and and and then the other side, which is like, you know, does this matter?
54:41
And I think there is a counter argument.
54:42
Like I talked to um this guy Josh Elman and and actually even the the chief product officer at Twitch, this guy Dan.
54:47
I was like, Dan, why why do you always join you know, worked at Google, worked at Nextdoor, worked at now Twitch.
54:52
I was like, why are you doing this big companies?
54:55
Like have you ever wanted to go do your own?
54:56
He's like, Yeah, but I wanted like impact, scale.
55:00
And I was like I was like, oh I was like in my head it was always if I'm at a small company, I have a bigger impact cuz I am big relative to the company.
55:07
He's like, Yeah, but that's not how you think about it.
55:09
Like here if I can improve one product that 10 million people use, or at Google, you know, a billion people use search, uh you know, every single day.
55:18
And so if I can make that better, he's like, I created the book search, you know, feature.
55:22
I was you know, on the books team, we created that project.
55:24
So now you could like search for books and like a bunch of people on Earth do that.
55:27
At a startup it would be very hard for me to do that.
55:30
And I was like, Okay, like that is the counterpoint is like if you're if you're working at Apple and you're working on the App Store, like you know, the App Store if a billion people use it every single day, I guess like making that better reaches a billion people.
55:43
You know, making their life 1% better or whatever, you know, that that day is is higher impact than than at a startup.
55:49
But it doesn't feel that way.
55:51
The action doesn't feel the same to me. No, I agree.
55:53
You want to do another topic?
55:57
Can I give you a framework that I think is uh pretty dope that I that I heard? Mhm.
56:03
So, I was talking to somebody about like, you know, um I guess I can't really say what I was talking about.
56:09
Uh but I was talking about something.
56:11
It was sort of like, you know, let's say the topic of money.
56:13
Like, you know, should I do this should I do this?
56:15
It's going to yield this amount of money or not?
56:17
And the person was like, "Well, the way I think about money is um you know, he goes, "The value of money is what can you say no to if you have this money?"
56:29
And I was like, "What do you mean by that?"
56:30
I was like, "That's interesting."
56:31
I started He he actually he didn't even respond.
56:32
But I was like, uh I my head I was like, "That's interesting.
56:35
I've never heard that before."
56:37
And so like, I started thinking about it and I go, "That's true."
56:40
Like, people always say, you know, "I want financial freedom. I want freedom.
56:44
You know, I don't care about money. I care about freedom."
56:46
That's like a common thing you'll hear.
56:49
And it's like, "What does that actually mean?"
56:49
I was like, "Oh, it's actually not the freedom to do something.
56:51
It's the freedom from having to do something."
56:54
So, it's like, "What can I say no to?"
56:56
So, let me give you kind of like So, I started thinking about my own life.
56:59
I was like, "When I had $25,000 in my bank account, I could say no to a really shitty job.
57:04
Like, I didn't have to go flip burgers or be a janitor cuz I could I could pay my like monthly bill.
57:08
Uh and I could do that for like, you know, 6 to 12 months and like, cool.
57:12
That means I didn't have to go get a bad job, a shitty job today."
57:17
"Then at like 100K in the bank, you can say no to like a shitty manager.
57:21
It's like, okay, I don't I can't just retire, but I can like quit this job, take a gap, and like find another job and I don't feel like this like financial stress in doing that.
57:27
So, 100K lets me say no to a shitty manager.
57:32
I was like, half a million, that's when I could say no to like, I don't have to work for a couple years.
57:35
I could just say no to work for a little bit.
57:38
Temporarily say no to work. to 12 month thing, yeah.
57:41
Yeah, I could go for a year.
57:41
I could try a startup or go trap backpacking or whatever.
57:44
Like I could pursue a passion of some kind.
57:47
So that's a new thing you could say no to.
57:49
It's like work for a little while.
57:51
Then it kind of like, I would say 3 million, you can just say no to jobs.
57:54
Like, uh, I'm only going to work for myself.
57:56
I can bet on myself and and give myself enough time to figure stuff out without having to stress about it.
58:04
At 10 million, I think you just say no to working in general.
58:05
It's like, all right, like my money makes enough money.
58:09
I just don't need to use my time to make money if I don't want to.
58:13
And then it kind of goes on and I I think at 3 million you say no at like I I've been thinking about this as well.
58:17
Um, at like between some number, maybe around a hundred, you say no to having to be in one location.
58:23
So for example, right now, I rent a place in one location and I own a place in another location.
58:31
If I had a hundred million dollars, I'd probably own three or four homes and just like, hey, let's just go from place to place to place.
58:35
I don't have to spend any time organizing a rental or or anything.
58:39
And then maybe around like two or three hundred, it's I'm going to say no to wasting time at an airport.
58:45
I'm just we only You know, we only fly private.
58:48
I think it's that, but the numbers are a little bit less.
58:50
I said at 50 million, I think you could say no to any inconvenience that money can solve. You could. I think you could.
58:54
But you could fly private at 50 million.
58:57
You don't have to own the jet. You could fly private.
59:01
You could hire assistants to do anything you need.
59:03
You could hire, you know, chefs and drivers and and and, you know, errands and and accountants and anything you don't want to do, you don't have to do.
59:10
I talked I talked to a guy the other day who owns a jet and he said it's it's about two and a half million a year in expenses. He owns it.
59:15
If you want to rent it, I think you could go most you can go to a lot of places and spend half a million dollars a year.
59:20
And if you have You have million, that's that's doable.
59:27
But you can't own like an $8 million house in Brooklyn and then a $3 million house in Austin and then a $5 million house in LA.
59:33
But, you could own pretty nice [ __ ] in those places. Right.
59:37
And so, you know, like the top ladders, you you get to 100 million and I think you could say no to the way the world the world works, you get to change some rules.
59:43
And at a billion, I think you say no to like politicians, you say no to the police, you say you say no to a bunch of people when you get to a billion because you have the ability to kind of fight back.
59:54
You you they they kind of there's there's a different level of respect.
59:58
So, to me, I liked this framework of what does this amount of money allow me to say no to that I want to say no to?
1:00:06
Did you what would what hourly rate would you say no to right now?
1:00:08
For for a project that you don't want to do, for a 1-hour phone call, what would you have to accept?
1:00:17
So, like I think there's there's like what you say and then there's like what you actually like what the market clearing price actually is.
1:00:24
So, you would you would Right now, I charge $2,000 an hour and I take about 2 hours a week of phone calls.
1:00:30
Would you do that or not?
1:00:33
So, that's the exact borderline.
1:00:33
So, on GLG, that's like what you can the max you can set my rate to is 2,000.
1:00:39
And if I get a if I get a bid and I'm like, "Ah, this phone call doesn't sound like it's going to be a lot of fun."
1:00:47
Um it's like right at that borderline where I feel like I kind of should.
1:00:49
Like uh for an hour I should do it.
1:00:54
Dude, I take And I don't I I don't think the calls cuz I need the money.
1:00:56
I take the calls cuz I feel guilty saying no.
1:00:59
And so It's the same thing, right?
1:01:00
Like feeling like I should means feeling like I want to say no, but I don't think I should.
1:01:05
And therefore, if I say no, I kind of feel like I made a you know, I'm guilty, right?
1:01:09
Like What I've done is I've used the app Intro and I just like for example, I'm flying down to your event and then I'm flying to LA.
1:01:15
I I schedule it so I know when I'm going to be Well, I know when I'm going to be in the Uber and I just make my availability there.
1:01:24
So, I'm like, "Sick, I'll just take this in the Uber and now I can afford like I can justify a $200 Uber Black because I'm making $2,000 in this hour.
1:01:33
And so, I'm going to be comfortable and I'll order even early.
1:01:37
So, if I arrive early at the airport, I can just sit outside of the airport and finish this call."
1:01:39
So, that's kind of how I've been justifying it now.
1:01:41
But, it feels weird selling time per hour and I don't even know if I like that in general. Yeah, exactly.
1:01:48
So, I would say my true answer is if I don't want to do it right now, I think that the number is something like two or $3,000 for an hour.
1:01:56
If I do If I just If I If I don't want to do it, I actually just don't do it.
1:01:59
But, if it's like borderline, if I'm not sure if I want to do it or I don't think I would like it, but it's not so painful, I think that's my current thing.
1:02:05
Uh but, I'm actively trying to get away from it. Like um Uh What was it?
1:02:11
Something that came up yesterday that was like this and I was like I was By default, I was just going to say yes and I was like, "Should I say yes to this?
1:02:17
Let me just like recheck what I want to be saying yes to because I think that, you know, one of the most important decisions in your life is what are the things I'm going to say yes to and what are the things I'm going to say no to.
1:02:27
So, there's your default box, which is like, "Oh, I I obviously say yes and no to these things."
1:02:32
Then, what are the non-obvious things?
1:02:33
So, it's like I want to be saying yes to things that I know will be fun and help me grow but scare me a little or put me out of my comfort zone. Right?
1:02:41
So, it's like I know I want to say yes to that.
1:02:43
I know I want to say yes to uh if my friend is in town, I want to go pick them up from the airport or if my mom needs to get to the airport, I want to drive her there.
1:02:50
Like, I want to say yes to tasks that like um I don't want to do, but I actually want to be the person who does those things.
1:02:58
So, I'm just like I'm deciding consciously what are the things that are like What What should I be moving into the yes box and what should I be moving into the no box?
1:03:05
What's some [ __ ] I do today that I should be saying no to?
1:03:08
Do you have a polite way of saying no to all the inbound or do you just ignore?
1:03:13
I used to just ignore and then I realized like it's totally fine to just say um hey this sounds cool, but um I just got my hands full.
1:03:22
I don't want to do anything else.
1:03:23
Or like, hey this uh you know um hey you know uh thanks for reaching out.
1:03:30
Um I don't want to do any more phone calls than I'm doing right now, but if that changes I'll let you know. Yeah.
1:03:35
And like I'll just say something and I think you know people A they just appreciate a response more than a blowoff.
1:03:39
And B I think there's some level of respect for um Awful emails. Yeah.
1:03:46
honest and like just saying look I I don't like I don't want to do that.
1:03:48
Um you know I I've decided I want to travel I've decided I want to travel less, you know.
1:03:55
Um so I'm going to say so I'm saying no to travel.
1:03:58
Dude I had this guy messaging me saying he wants to come on the pod and I was just like I ignored it.
1:04:01
I ignored it cuz I hate when people ask to come on because I'm like dude, why are you going to make me say no?
1:04:06
Like we I say no to everyone practically, even good friends.
1:04:09
Like we just say no to most everyone.
1:04:11
And this guy he was like uh I was like hey or he was like can I come on? I'm a huge fan.
1:04:15
And I just said like thanks for reaching out.
1:04:17
Like I didn't even I tried to avoid it.
1:04:18
Like it was quite obvious.
1:04:20
And he's like uh hey so can I come on?
1:04:22
And I go, you know, this isn't a good fit, but I really appreciate you listening.
1:04:25
And he was like um can I get some feedback?
1:04:28
I was like it's just not a good fit.
1:04:29
And he goes, okay, but why?
1:04:30
And I was like uh okay, cuz you're not interesting and you're not that successful.
1:04:35
And uh he was angry at me.
1:04:36
And I was like dude, what what the hell?
1:04:38
I mean, I was trying to like you know, make a point of like avoiding this topic and being kind, but you if you're going to ask for feedback, and I'm going to tell you you know what what what it's about. Don't get angry. Right.
1:04:52
He's like what what's not interesting about it? He said.
1:04:53
I go, it just there's you know, I just don't care about you.
1:04:59
So my my my Goldilocks thing here was I was too cold when I just blew people off cuz they didn't like that.
1:05:03
And then they would just stop like, you know, I I found I would miss opportunities because I wouldn't reply to things.
1:05:08
Uh miss opportunities that I cared about in the long run.
1:05:11
And then the two hot was I would just be like, I don't do phone calls.
1:05:14
I was like, okay, you know, you're you're sort of a jerk for just being like, I don't do phone calls or like I don't meet with people I don't know.
1:05:21
Or like, you know, I don't do this.
1:05:24
It's like too hard of a rule.
1:05:24
And I found that this the sweet spot was somewhere in the middle of just saying uh you know, hey, thanks, but but you know, I'm trying to do less of this right now.
1:05:33
Or or sometimes I'll say like um they'll be like, hey, did you want to do this?
1:05:37
I'll be like um you know, I haven't decided and you know, like I don't know.
1:05:42
I don't I don't even know what I want yet.
1:05:43
So let me get clear on what I want and then I'll come back if I if I, you know, when I get clear, if I ever get clear on it.
1:05:47
But like it's not about you.
1:05:49
I just don't know exactly what I want to do right now.
1:05:52
And like I'll just say like something honest like that and I found that that that tends to work a little bit better.
1:05:56
Dude, we went from Hitler to Saudi Arabia to saying no to people. Mental models. Yeah, mental models. Good pod.
1:06:05
Um you uh I'm going to be in LA on Sunday.
1:06:10
You're not coming, right? To LA on Sunday? No, I don't think so.
1:06:17
I'm going to see you in What are you going to What are you going to LA for? I told you about it.
1:06:19
I'm hosting an event there.
1:06:20
Dude, for the New York event that I'm hosting, we've got like 1,300 RSVPs.
1:06:24
I'm eager to see how many show up. to cut that down, right?
1:06:27
You can't You can't do it.
1:06:29
You're going to do a 1,000-person event?
1:06:31
No, that's how many people said they're coming, but it's free.
1:06:33
So like maybe half will come.
1:06:36
Um but we put up 10 grand.
1:06:37
to do a 650-person event?
1:06:40
Dude, it's all guys, by the way. It's all guys.
1:06:42
I like scroll through, it's all dudes.
1:06:45
I can smell that event already. Ugh, yeah. It's [ __ ] up, man.
1:06:49
So many chads are going to be there.
1:06:51
And then I'm doing the same thing in LA and that one has like five or 600 RSVPs.
1:06:57
Um I just uh you and I were talking about an event and I was like kind of like actually This is like a toilet decision and I just wrote it on Eventbrite on my phone and just posted it right away and people signed up and there's seven are committed. So, we're doing that.
1:07:09
And then I'm going to be going to And then we're going to go to the Carolinas for the thing you're organizing, which everyone's been reaching out to me.
1:07:14
Did we talk about it last pod?
1:07:18
Yeah, we mentioned it at the end of last pod.
1:07:19
Dude, so many people are reaching out. out about? They want to come.
1:07:23
They Basically, people wanting to come, and I'm like, "I This isn't No. No, sorry. It's not my thing."
1:07:29
But So, so I came up with a I was like, "What do we call this?"
1:07:31
And I was like, "I want to call it Camp MFM."
1:07:36
So, it's Camp MFM, and I was like, "We could do these a bunch We could do a bunch of these.
1:07:38
We could just do like adult summer camps, basically." Great idea.
1:07:42
What is something that's really fun?"
1:07:44
Cuz I don't want to go to something that's like Like even this like thousand-person meet-up, like I'm sure it's cool and there's cool people, but a different purpose.
1:07:50
It's a party versus an experience.
1:07:54
Yeah, so I want to have experiences.
1:07:54
You know, when you were like, "I'm a [ __ ] artist, man."
1:07:57
You know, that that's how I am.
1:07:59
Like, "I'm going to have experiences."
1:08:01
This is going to be a good one.
1:08:01
Now, we got to come up with another one.
1:08:02
Let's go to like whole And so, some of these will be like this one, which is like ultra like more like super exclusive, right?
1:08:08
There's only There was only supposed to be 12 people going. It's expanded to 24.
1:08:11
And you know, that's a lot.
1:08:14
I wanted it to be more like 12, but I'm like, there'll be those, and I think we should do some that are for like Dude, if you can like if you know the phrase, you know, "We don't do public math, manifest cowboys," you know, "Sam wants to own a lake."
1:08:28
Like, if you know the inside jokes of this pod, then you're that's your admittance into the to this this camp.
1:08:34
And I was like, "I think we should do these like twice a year that are just like fun and awesome and get people together."
1:08:40
And I was like, "I think Camp MFM should be the thing."
1:08:41
I never wanted to do the work for this.
1:08:46
And neither do you, and so that's like, you know, one of the challenges, but But it wasn't a lot of work for this one, was it? of feel like it is.
1:08:51
It's a lot of Because as soon as I try to do something, I'm like, "Let's make it [ __ ] awesome, then."
1:08:56
Like, you know, so like all of a sudden, like for this basketball thing, we got like Nike's giving us all like like sneakers like from like one of their players and then we're getting like custom swag.
1:09:05
We rented these like dope Airbnbs. We got like a chef.
1:09:09
We got like all this stuff come together.
1:09:10
I was like well if we're going to have good people let's get like some like good names in here.
1:09:13
Let's get like some people we're excited to meet.
1:09:17
And then it's all coming together and like but like each one of those down like now I want it to be like awesome if we're going to do it.
1:09:22
We want to have like you know a good experience.
1:09:25
$300,000 a year to do cool [ __ ] but we get to be there at all the events. Yeah, okay.
1:09:34
If somebody wants to do sponsor camp camp MFM you could do this and all the money will go to basically hiring a planner to actually like do these things for us and and secondly to to you know the the venue and logistics of it. All right, that's a pod. I'm out.