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Tetrogrammaton.
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[music] There's so many Beatles documentaries, [music] so many McCartney documentaries, and almost all of them seem to be about the same thing.
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either Beatle Mania or songwriting, both of which great topics, but there's a whole other world.
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And I was interested in the musicianship aspect of it.
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And I couldn't find books or films about the Beatles as musicians.
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So that was the focus of 321.
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Having that experience thinking, who's a popular artist who may not be seen as they actually are?
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And I thought about Jay because people think about Jay as a great businessman, executive, billionaire, married to Beyonce.
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I just thought it'd be really beautiful to show that that artistry because without the artistry, none of the other stuff happens.
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And I'm so happy he decided to do it. >> Yeah.
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Especially because he doesn't really do many interviews.
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I don't feel like watching it, I it occurred to me that I don't think I've ever heard him speak at such length before.
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I remember hearing that you wanted your first album to be your only album.
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>> Yeah, >> that was your original plan. Yeah. >> Tell me about that.
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>> I don't know where that thought came from, but it was it was serious for me. >> I had these goals.
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I have one record, it'll go gold. >> I see. >> And that'll be it.
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And then I'll have this company.
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I've always thought like a like a a businessman, >> you know?
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It was like I was fighting an artist.
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I didn't love being an artist.
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I didn't like shooting videos.
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I didn't like interviews.
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cuz I ain't like speaking.
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>> Yeah, >> I was pretty much introvert.
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This was the way I spoke.
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I would never talk like that if you were sitting around me.
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People that sat around me was like, "Go look it up."
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Everyone says, "He was so quiet.
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He never said anything blah blah blah."
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I would never talk like in those days.
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I would never have a conversation, you know.
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It and it was part of the you know my job not talking to people keep yourself thing stay in the shadows you a hustler you going to be on TV that goes against everything who are you there's no early footage of me would never let any cameras come around me >> film me oh no we going to have a fight like there's going to be a problem filming me you so everything I was doing was counterintuitive to how I lived.
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And I didn't I didn't I didn't like the music business.
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I wanted to do it cuz I had a dream and I had a talent to do it, but I didn't I didn't want to be in >> Yeah.
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You didn't aspire to be an artist.
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>> I didn't aspire to be an artist. Yeah.
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So, I was like, I'm going to do this and then I'll have a company.
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>> Daniel, to some people, you and Rick linking up is a bit of an unlikely pairing.
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And so I wonder what was it about your conversations or things that you share in common uh that made you think that you guys should actually work together?
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>> Then we was hanging out and then he said I want to show you something and then he showed it to me. I was like I liked it.
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These are my thoughts and you know he mentioned Jay-Z thing and I thought cool.
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He said it's 8 hours long.
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So I was ready for 8 hours.
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Then by like three and a half it was it's so dense. It was hard. It was like steep.
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>> But then I was I wrote some thoughts that I had about it.
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Oh this and that and this and that and this.
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Remember he said verbatim he's like he said I don't know what you're talking about. I think you do it. So why don't you do it?
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And then I was like what you mean? He said you do it.
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I was like all right cool. But then I did it.
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What's mad is that like I just I love music and so I get I get bored of modern music.
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There's no feeling in it. There's money in it.
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And then like I just finished listening to Jay-Z chronologically just randomly.
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I was just like just going to my favorite artist and listening chronologically. So yeah.
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Was it wasn't like oh this work.
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It was just that kind of like he had this idea and I had thoughts about it.
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Then I just was invested. >> Yeah.
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And I I think I share your sentiments especially perhaps where rap is concerned that there isn't as much feeling as a lot of the rapid needs that I grew up on because I think that for a lot of people Jay's always spoken about as one of the best to ever do it.
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But I think for a lot of modern rap listeners that's not necessarily something that's apparent to them.
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They don't really understand why that is.
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And so you know rap is always something that I consider to be like my first musical love.
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It introduced me to politics.
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It sparked my interest in social issues.
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I wonder what does hip-hop maybe mean for the both of you?
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>> Well, it came along at a time I was going to school at NYU and some kids in school had mixtapz and there was no hip-hop on the radio.
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It was a totally underground form of music, same time as punk rock music.
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I was listening to more punk rock at the time and I started listening to these tapes and it felt like it feels just like punk rock to me.
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had the same energy of young people, street level, something to say, saying it.
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It wasn't uh from the conservatory. And that spoke to me.
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And then when I went to NYU, I started going to hip-hop clubs.
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It was one, which was a reae club, six nights of the week, and one night a week they had hip-hop.
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And I would go to that every week, Tuesday nights.
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And at that time, the only records that you could buy that were hip-hop really were for DJs.
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They would be 12-in singles, but very limited.
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And none of them had the energy that I experienced going to the club.
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So, as a fan, I just wanted to make something that sounded more like what I heard at the club, really like documentarian of hip-hop.
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And those were the first Def Jam records.
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>> And Daniel, how about you?
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What's your relationship with hip-hop?
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I was I was the only boy in my household like so with more R&B that was in my house child Lauren Hill and then I just record everything on the radio like HFM or like >> DJ279 I would just record rap like that's all I would do is just listen to
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music remember I would go on holiday my mom and I just just have CDs like 2J listen and now I look back at Kafri was just articulating what was happening to me that I wasn't able to like talk about and all the feelings I had and the frustrations I I don't know. It was like painting my
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It was like painting my inner world. Yeah.
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>> One of the things you said earlier, Rick, was about how this documentary kind of shows a side of Jay-Z that we don't really know or get to experience very much.
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And I remember being quite struck by there's a tenderness.
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There's a real tenderness to him and a real sort of eloquence to the way that he articulates himself.
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You know, I think a lot of musicians outside of rap can really struggle with which is why they are often drawn to music.
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And I remember feeling emotional at certain points particularly when he spoke about the relationship with his father.
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And I wonder was there anything for you Rick that you found surpris so many things.
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The fact that he never wanted to be an artist really like the whole thing happened to him and he never wanted to be famous.
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The worst part of his job is that he feels like he doesn't really have the personal life that we all have because fame comes with all these traps.
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And again, he's not complaining.
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He says, you know, he's thankful that it all worked out the way it did.
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But it wasn't anything he was looking for.
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He wasn't yearning for fame, just the opposite.
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He wanted to be in the background always.
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So, that was one of the things that kind of blew my mind.
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But many many all through it.
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I've seen interviews of Jay from the past.
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And he's always been rapper Jay-Z in the same way that before he was rapper Jay-Z, he was drug dealer Jay-Z.
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So there was always this mask and you never knew what he was thinking and you would he would only give you what he wanted to give you, but you never really felt like you got to meet him.
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But I knew him in real life. I knew him.
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And here everyone gets to see this is really him.
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And the fact that it's as long as it is, at the end of it, you really know him.
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And a friend of his, Tata, who's been with him from the beginning, watched the whole thing crying.
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Now, he's been with Jay every step of the way since kids in school. Every step.
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And he watched it and he said, "I didn't know half of what he said."
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And this is someone who's with him every day of his life because he doesn't talk.
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He's he is a very >> private person and he felt comfortable and opened up.
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I'll tell you some of the the secrets of the way this was made. It wasn't a film shoot.
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When you go to a film shoot, there are cameras all around and there's a big production with a lot of people and then in the middle of all of this technical stuff, there's an actor or two in the middle doing some little thing.
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But to the hundred people on the set, that's insignificant.
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They're working on the the technical aspect of it.
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I went to visit Robert Downey Jr.
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Downey Jr. when they were making the movie Iron Man and there were a thousand people working and he would go out on stage to do his thing and of the thousand people there I think there was maybe one who even paid attention to
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what he was he was totally insignificant in this giant machine and I remember thinking this doesn't feel right it doesn't feel right so the way this was made was Jay knew we were making this But in the space, there were no cameras in the space. Couldn't see any cameras.
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Couldn't see any cameras. Couldn't see any people.
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We walk into the building together alone.
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One guy comes over and puts mics on us and leaves.
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And then we step out into this big room and we sit at this table and start having this conversation.
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And within 7 minutes, you realize it's not a film shoot.
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And we are two people in this big empty room.
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It's dead silent and we're having a real conversation that goes on for hours and hours and hours over several days.
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>> So, the reason you haven't seen him like this before is because you couldn't make it the way you normally make things and have it feel like this.
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No one came in and said, "Okay, action. Let's go." It wasn't like that.
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>> I was going to I was going to ask, you know, how did you create the conditions to get him that comfortable to open up in that way?
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And that was >> it felt exactly like this.
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felt like we're having this conversation. We're not on the PA.
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I'm really in the moment with you having this conversation. It's like that.
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It's a very intimate thing.
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And because it was silent, because there was nobody else in the space. You couldn't see anyone.
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All the people working were all dressed in black and had no shoes on.
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So everything was silent in the place.
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And they were all >> hidden and far away and in the shadows.
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>> My favorite line was, "Jiggle man is diesel.
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when I lift the eight up.
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So diesel meaning strong. He said you he's diesel. >> Yeah.
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>> And then the eight referencing a gun 38.
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He said diesel when I lift the eight up.
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>> But the second meaning of that when Kobe and Shaq won the championship.
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There's a famous photo of Shaq holding him in his hand. man is diesel.
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They call Shaq Shaq diesel cuz he was so strong. Sugar Man is Diesel.
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When I lift the eight up, Kobe number was eight. >> Wow.
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>> So, he had Kobe in his hand. >> So cool.
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>> And so, another element of the documentary that I really love is how you draw attention to the lyrics, not just on screen, but you know, Jay-Z gives the context behind them.
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And despite rap containing more lyrics than most genres, if not all genres, I still think lyrics can often kind of go over the heads of some people.
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So, was it really important for you both to have that element, you know, where he's breaking down his lyrics?
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Because >> that was the initial premise of the whole thing was showing Jay-Z through his lyrics.
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If you could read them, you could see the care, skill, difficulty, complexity in those words that if you're not reading them, you would never know it.
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You know, you might know the hook of the song and you might like the beat and you might sing along, but nobody knows what he's really saying except a a tiny tiny portion of the audience. M.
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>> So that was the really the hope was to find a way to share what a great artist he is and his art is lyrics.
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That's his that's his art. >> Yeah.
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And Daniel, how about >> the word on stream give it objectivity.
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And so it removes the prejudice that lives in the idea of how we see rap.
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lives in the idea of how we see rap. So what happens is is that like there's there's things in the idea and the concept of rap how it lives in society and culture that stops you from really listening to what these guys are doing
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like and really seeing what I'm hearing and connecting to it allows you like a bigger picture into what they're actually doing is what I feel >> I think one of the surprising elements for me is that seeing the lyrics on screen and you realize that nothing is sill like everything is very layered. I
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I think we're constantly bombarded with this idea that our attentions are the worst they've ever been in human history.
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You know, our attention span is what I mean.
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You know, what made you confident that you could do a documentary in this style without much other footage, just Rick and Jay talking and still hold people's attentions?
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Was that ever something that you were nervous about?
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>> I just think we're here to do stuff that hasn't been done before. >> Mhm.
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>> I don't care what people say.
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>> We're here to make art. Huh? Yeah. >> Good.
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Like I think it's just like a wizard industry or artistry. What side you on?
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>> If it works, it works.
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If it doesn't, it doesn't. Don't watch it.
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If you like it, watch it.
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Like that kind of like we Why are we Why are we kind of internalizing and having to judge in us?
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It will connect to who it needs to connect to.
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>> I feel like if you like Jay-Z, longer is better.
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>> I know if there's something I'm interested in, I want more. I don't want less.
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>> So maybe it's not for everybody, but for the people it's not for, they won't even like one episode.
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But the people who like it, maybe it's not enough. >> Yeah.
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>> You know, it can go on forever if you're really interested.
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>> I wonder if there any moments during documentary.
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Is there anything in particular uh you know that you can maybe talk about that you're quite excited for audiences Daniel?
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>> There's so much like 444 >> is a great you know it's like at that point he hadn't listened to it back. >> Yeah.
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That's one of the most incredible things is this is a song that's one of his most personal songs.
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Came out several years ago and I said, "Let's listen to it."
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And first thing he does is he reacts like, "Oh, you going to make me listen to this?"
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Like, >> and then we listened to it.
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And the first thing he says is, "I haven't listened to it since I recorded it. Never."
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>> And it's the most personal song you've ever heard.
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But the the fact that he could record something so personal and share it with the world, but it would be too much for he himself to listen to.
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He told the story also with his mother where where he lyrics that he could never say to his mother yet he puts it out on a record for the world to hear and the mother hears it as part of it.
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But we learn from this that his way of communicating, his only way of communicating is through lyrics. That's how we know him.
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That's how anyone knows him.
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That's how his family knows him is through what he puts in the words.
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Because if it's not in the words, it's not what's happening with him. And he won't say it.
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>> Man, I can't believe I wrote that.
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It's so again, I was 27, but still early in my career. >> Yeah.
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>> And you're saying that as a person, you wouldn't have said these things in real life. >> Not a chance. Not a chance. crazy.
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And I was saying also that the first time, you know, hearing this would be on record.
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It wasn't like it was a heads up either.
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It wasn't like some let me sit down. This is what I'm saying.
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Like 444 is way different.
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When I wrote that uh smile about my mom, >> it was a conversation like, "Hey, this is listen to this the first time.
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My first time hearing it."
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She was like, "No, it's my story to tell."
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And I was like, "Yeah, but you know, I mean, mentally, you do this process."
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And it was like a a real conversation until like maybe a month later she came to LA and she had wrote written that poem on the plane and she came like, "Listen to this."
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And it was like uh it was like her saying yes to the blessings and like the completion of a real >> healthy conversation about speaking about certain things.
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You know, this was unhealthy.
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It was just like you said was therapy for me, but it wasn't all the way fair to people.
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>> Let's talk about what's going on in your head to allow this to come out in your art. >> Even that is radical. >> Yes. Exactly.
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These are the words not to be said and you're laying it out.
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>> This was the only place was my only outlet for to to release these.
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You know, you can hear the shame and guilt and all of these verses.
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>> I say later on and then in more than one way cocaine numbs the brain.
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Like you you start numbing yourself to things that you would never do. >> Yes.
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>> Like you start losing yourself in that.
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Like it's always like I always say it's two sides of substance abuse.
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You know people get addicted to that feeling and adrenaline to being hustlers and being in that life that like you know you start overlooking things.
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You have to you have to compartmentalize. >> Absolutely.
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To be able to do it >> to be able to do it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yes. >> Yes. >> You know what I mean?
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You have to like make these versions of yourself.
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You have to splinter off into all these little versions to justify what you doing.
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Say, "I'm gonna do that, but I'm not going to do this.
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I'll sell drugs to this person, but I won't sell to a pregnant woman."
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>> But you end up living in a really small box. >> Yeah.
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And and I could hear like just dealing with that like dealing with that and dealing with in a real there was like like in a real way like >> in a real way in a poetic way.
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You feel the emotion in it >> and in the context of someone who's you hear bragging on records, this is shocking, >> right? >> It's shocking.
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>> It was always the moment and this I believe was the last song on the album like when the last song came in where I was super introspective.
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Even on the first album, the last song is regrets.
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When I was young, you used to hold me.
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>> Was a rapper saying you used to hold me.
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You told me I was song to my mom.
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When I was young, you used to hold me. Told me I was the best.
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Everything only thing I want is only that I regret or in order to survive.
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Had to learn to live with regrets.
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Again, this compartmentalization of like I had to put away those feelings.
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I couldn't deal with regret and mistakes.
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You got to you got to keep going. Can't dwell on it. Oh man, I did that. Keep going.
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And once you start doing that, obviously you burying your feelings and burying those feelings, they're not going anywhere. No, >> they're there.
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>> I wonder maybe you have kind of touched on it a little bit with your last answer uh around, you know, artistry or industry, what side are you on?
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Is there any advice that you would give to uh emerging artists in film or music?
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emerging artists in film or music? uh you know what qualities do you think are needed today to be a trailblazer in a time where you know we live in an attention and economy where everyone is competing for idols so what is important for you to to perhaps say to emerging arts
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>> I think connected to this are you doing it to express you doing to impress >> so if you're doing it to impress then go and you're going to be you know round about and trying to go these execs going well I don't think so these people that are non artistic telling you about your art and then you're like no no >> like what don't make sense to me. And I think that
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And I think that like what he was talking about, I don't think you like try and be like just just let it out.
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Had stuff I wanted to express and that was my my language >> of doing that.
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That was with the tools that I had available.
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And then when I got more tools, I in different different ways.
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But it's like the fullness of expression. Just do it.
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Just let out and don't don't worry about the outcome.
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It's easier said than done, but it's easier said than done.
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>> Yeah, I would say the same.
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I would say make it totally personal.
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Make your favorite thing. You're the audience.
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It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
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If you get a lot of criticism, that's fine.
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If people hate it, that's fine.
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It's actually better if people hate it than if they don't care about it.
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>> So, if you make something that that warrants some energetic reaction, good or bad, that's better than mediocrity. >> So, go hard.
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Whatever you do, take it as far as you possibly can and see what happens. >> Yeah.
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Well, this one is, you know, just for me because I always feel like I can I get to know people sometimes through the music that they like and, you know, I always think what we gravitate to, what we essentially vibrate to, uh, speaks volumes.
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So, you know, out of curiosity, you know, what are some of your favorite Jay-Z songs? >> Uh, okay. What was a great moment? Yeah.
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In this right is when he said he figured out when he when he did hot dog life and he figured out how to like combine the real story of what he's been through in melodies >> and he like opened that door and then like I listened to that album the other day. Yeah. Volume three.
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And I think I just love volume 3 >> just how he sonically grew and it was just like Yeah.
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And I think that album means a lot to me. Yeah. >> Okay.
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Well, you maybe it's an album.
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Maybe song is too difficult.
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No, I'll say there's a there's an >> the opening song on the J electronic album.
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I don't know what it's called, but it starts with Jay rapping >> and he's just on fire.
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I can't I can't believe we didn't include it now that I think about it.
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I can't believe we didn't include it in the series.
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>> So, that's the opening song on the J Electronica.
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>> That's the opening song on the J Electronica.
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And it's weird because it's J Electronica's album and the first thing you hear is Jay-Z and it's insane.
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So, that's the first thing that comes to mind is like >> the Jay-Z that I love. Okay.
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So, for all of us who don't know that, I don't know, I'm not sure if I know that one or maybe we should check that out. Okay.
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So, is this a creative venture between the two of you that we can expect more from perhaps? >> Hope so. >> We're good. >> Okay.
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Well, well, we look forward to that and and thank you again for for making this wonderful documentary. [music] Tiff religion. [music] Tiff religion.