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This is a 18-wheeler [music] headed straight for us.
Search this video
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And if we don't, you know, get out the way or figure out how to stop it, um, we're going to get crushed.
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Things are going to have to be a lot more personalized. Mr.
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Beast has 440 million subscribers.
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And I think there will be 440 million different Mr.
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Beast versions for each person um, based on the data.
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There will be creators that will be on their own and and just like um, have that authentic connection.
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But I think there will also be people that don't exist that are creators.
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So AI creators that are making the perfect content for you.
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And so just let the best win.
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>> Hi everyone, I'm [music] Nick Wilon Adventures.
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I am still guest hosting Infinite Loops today because Jim is still [music] being uploaded to computer.
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Today I'm joined by Revan Lazarus, the founder and CEO Jamie AI which is building at the intersection of media AI and digital advertising.
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He's here to join me today to talk about exactly [music] that.
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Please enjoy conversation.
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>> Hey Ramen, how's it going? >> Good. How are you? >> Good. Good.
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>> So, why don't you walk me through exactly what you're up to and what you've built at Jimmyi? >> Yeah.
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[snorts] Um, well, first, thanks for having me.
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Uh, super stoked to be here.
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So, at Jamie, we are a um AI platform for uh podcast networks and digital sales teams.
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So we essentially allow sellers and the whole content organization to understand uh their content in their portfolio in a deeper level and then use that content and that data to help make sales and production materials like custom decks, runup shows, stuff like that.
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And then be able to query across the entire uh content suite to figure out what's exactly working, what's not working, um and then what's going to work for brands.
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what's going to work for brands. So I was going to ask so with that description help me think about it in terms of like actual show production pre-production pre-production production post-production and marketing and social >> totally
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>> the whole the whole gamut >> the whole suite on so we mostly focus on the pre-production uh side uh typically what happens is we'll ingest your entire portfolio but specifically on a show basis we'll analyze what has actually
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worked based on retention so figuring out this giant retention graph which is like a L-shaped graph has all these peaks and valleys like what will be on this video as Well, and then figuring out at scale based on those retention uh spikes, what is actually working for
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your audience, what's not working, how can you improve your hook, your transitions, um your editing, and so when you are prepping for an interview, you know, exactly what questions are going to create those spikes or at least more so of that. And then additionally,
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And then additionally, uh put together a full interview map from your guests.
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So, for instance, if you're researching me or somebody, typically our guests are a little bit more famous than myself, um, can look at their past interviews, can figure out what's actually worked well on social for them, um, and then do the full research.
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So, watching up to 500 hours of content to figure out, um, exactly what they've talked about before, what they haven't talked about, what actually did well, but maybe they've only spoken about it once, and then what you should really touch on based on what your audience typically likes, uh, based on your past videos. You're famous to me.
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You're already so famous to me.
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Um so so when you're when you're communicating all this, are you working directly with talent? How big is that team? Um maybe some examples. >> Yeah.
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So typically we don't work with talent.
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We work with the producers or the networks that work with the talent.
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And so we usually are, you know, with the producers that are making those uh run of shows, those interview maps.
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Um and so some of our customers are Way Sports and Entertainment, which started New Heights with Jason Travis Kelce.
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Um they also do Carmemelllo Anthony show and Andrew Santino's show.
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Um, we also have uh Dear Media, um, which has the Skinny Confidential and, uh, podcasts like, uh, Khloe Kardashian's podcast.
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Um, and then we work with a bunch of other, um, great shows like, uh, I'm Ross and Brown show who's a big NFL player.
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Um, and a sweet of those guys.
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>> Sports, pop culture, it doesn't even matter the content that you're covering.
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All it matters is that you have a system. >> Exactly. Yeah.
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So like uh an example is um you know we work with uh a few different shows at uh at Amazon's Wondery Network.
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So that's like Baby Kiki Palmer which is a more pop culture show.
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We also work with a show that is uh Zack Sang show which talks to music artists and producers and songwriters um or you know now they they have uh other sports shows as well.
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So we work on on those shows so across the board. When did you start?
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>> We started officially March 1st um of building this product.
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However, I'd been producing a podcast for 6 months before that and doing all the editing and um pre-production and doing all the ad sales and so feel like I've been in podcasting probably two years.
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Um but yeah, just building this probably a year and a half ago.
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What's the biggest change that you've experienced from beginning to now in terms of where you thought you'd be um providing media services or production services to what you're actually doing today and how's AI affected that?
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Yeah, I think when we first started, I think there wasn't a lot of buy in um from production teams with AI.
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I think that um probably you and I are trapped in this bubble of like tech and um you know SF or even New York and LA like it's a AI is a big deal and a lot of companies you know call it a year and a half ago um just weren't in that state of mind of like oh AI is going to change the way we do everything.
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Um and I think that's starting to happen but I think even at the grand scale it's not the way the world operates right now.
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So that has slowly started to be like oh we need to work on AI initiatives and I think more companies have had budget now um allocated for that and are open to experiencing and especially like top down like really saying like hey this is going to change our business.
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This is a 18-wheeler headed straight for us and if we don't you know get out the way or figure out how to stop it um we're going to get crushed.
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And so I think a lot of um those teams have been more willing to uh be be interested in what we're doing.
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>> The the difference in attitude cuz I've come across this a lot in some of the media projects we we do at Tron Adventures is um what's the biggest difference in narrative when 18 months ago you're saying hey are you thinking about this and they say no to AI why versus why are they saying yes to AI today. >> Yeah.
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I think a big portion of it is AI 18 months ago was pretty crap for what they do.
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they do. um especially on the creative side uh you know ask AI to write you a story or a book it's pretty horrible and so I think you know it was people testing it out um chatbt 4 3 and doing it once and saying oh this isn't good enough for what I want to do and like sort of writing it off versus now I think if you can show like hey we're
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trying to actually write line by line or give you very specific insights um I think showcasing it like that versus saying oh here's the whole story of how you should do an interview which is even how we started um has really grown and then I think additionally like uh especially with us I always had thought we would be a sort of like
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pre-production content tool um because I actually originally when I was producing a podcast that was the thing I was worst at great at selling ads but I was bad at doing pre-production um and so shout out the guys here for for doing all the production um but so I originally thought like you know maybe a lot of other people have this issue or it's a
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huge cost driver um in a lot of other production companies they're spending a ton on producers and I was like maybe that shouldn't be case um or they should spending glass or a producer should be working on um more shows rather than just like you know three producers on one show which is typically sort of how it was going. You'd have a executive
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You'd have a executive producer, regular producer and associate producer and um now I've realized that like attaching yourself from a business perspective to cost versus revenue um is like a huge and so uh we've been really focused on how do we make companies more money instead of how do we save them more money.
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Um, I don't really think anybody's interested in saving money when they can just make more. So, that's fantastic.
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Um, well, something I I heard you say is, you know, they were just using it wrong or the the AI capability wasn't there or it's just not something they were able to spend enough time on before they realized the value.
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Now, it's just much more apparent.
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But also, you're you're bringing that to the forefront for these people who may not be spending 24/7 thinking about it. >> Definitely. Yeah.
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I think that, you know, uh I would never say like, you know, our users are using the product wrong because they're using it how they think they should use it, right?
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So, they're always using it in the right way. We just have to adjust.
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way. We just have to adjust. Um and so I think that like a great deal of it was, you know, the insights that we were pulling were just sort of lackluster on what a really good producer could And I think as AI has evolved and um especially we've evolved with their
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customers to figure out what do they actually want because obviously me running a podcast that's one podcast versus a producer who's done this for 10 years and works on five podcasts um is a is a little bit different in terms of the the output they're looking for. And
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And then also like just doing everything through a data lens can be really challenging with creatives because creatives obviously are like this is an art form to me and I know exactly how my audience thinks and how they work.
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And so really convincing them to like take a look at the data which I think has happened a lot more recently when you look at shows like Dire CEO or uh even caller daddy like huge data centered focus.
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I think a lot of it um yeah, you can you can tell.
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So like when you look um at the comments sometimes you'll see even on Diary CEO of like Steven doesn't ask enough follow-up questions or it feels sort of like heartless and it's because he's like optimizing for retention.
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So he's not asking the follow-up question that's a weak transition.
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He's just cutting straight to the next question.
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So when you feel like, oh, I'm sort of done with this answer, you're already on to the next question.
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And I think like it it isn't the natural flow of a conversation.
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when you watch it, you're like, "Oh, this guy's mom died and Steven didn't ask like wasn't like that heartfelt about it."
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Um, and it's because he's like, "How do we keep the viewer um staying for longer?"
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And so, there's a there's a give and take to everything.
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Um, but when you're really optimizing for retention and for views, um, I think it it does work.
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Like, his channel has um grown dramatically in the past year, year and a half, and I think a lot of it is because of the their optimization on the data side.
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the willingness for a show to take on like a data analytics approach and like really really really like focus on that.
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Does it matter how big the show is or is it like literally any size show any podcast?
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This is alternative media, right?
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So like doesn't cost a lot of money just to produce one episode of a podcast if you wanted to do it on the lower end.
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Does it matter or does it matter?
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Does does the size of the show matter?
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>> Yeah, I mean I think always the size of the show is going to show more impact on the changes that you do.
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I think a lot of the time that on a smaller channel, you're really looking for that human connection.
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Um, so you're really like hoping that somebody falls in love with the content that you're making.
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And I think the optimizations can actually happen later on.
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Um, so for instance, if you're starting a podcast, what you're really going to want to do is just define who your audience is and make sure that they love your content regardless of the optimizations.
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I think the optimizations come a little bit later when you've grown your audience.
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And now you can say, "Okay, how do we grow to a bigger audience or how do we expand our pool?"
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One thing I love about Mr.
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beast is like you'll look at his old videos.
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There's no optimization, retention, um anything, right?
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He's saying uh Logan Paul for like a million times, right?
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Or something like that in a row.
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It takes him like 48 hours, something crazy.
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It's like there's no retention there.
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Like nobody cares about I I if you're going to watch the next second.
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Um and especially a lot of the the early stuff, it's like how do you just build that audience?
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But now that he has the audience, he's like, okay, how do we optimize this to keep people watching for longer to attract more um people?
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You know, he's got this purple cow theory.
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just wants to do stuff that nobody's ever done before.
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Um, so that you click on his I trapped, you know, two pilots in a plane for a hundred days.
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Uh, the winner gets the plane, it's like, all right, there's not a video like that that exists on the internet.
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Um, and so then it's like, okay, how do we optimize?
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But initially, you just have to have an audience that truly loves what you're making.
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And I think a lot of that just comes from being authentic and being yourself and then figuring out the the optimizations later.
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>> It's no secret that people want to know everything about their audience and demo matters.
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What are the most non-obvious characteristics of demo that you think have an outsized impact on a show?
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>> Well, let's walk through some let's walk through some of the obvious ones.
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It's like geography, age, gender, what else?
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Yeah, I don't know if like, you know, if you have any control um over your demo and really like, you know, obviously you can do paid media to a certain demo um and market towards that demo, but I'm not sure if that actually gives you an advantage.
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I think there's like unique advantages um to every demo and it's just about how you position, right?
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So like older demo um going to have more money to spend, right?
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So you can say that to advertisers.
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Younger demo is going to be more interactive with your content.
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They're going to watch more of it.
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Um so there I think there's pros and cons to to each of that.
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Um, what I would say is like you just want a demo that like is obsessed with you in any realm the same way like you, you know, the older generation is obsessed with the news and um, you know, Anderson Cooper and whoever, right?
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They they'll watch anything that he does.
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Um, versus, you know, you have younger audiences that will, one I say is a great one is this guy Jake Shane.
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Jake Shane is probably I don't know how many followers on Instagram that he has now, maybe 2 million.
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million. But his audience is um so deeply connected to him will watch whatever he does and performs at such a high level where it actually doesn't matter that he has 20 million you know followers like his 2 million are real 2
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million that all love him as like their favorite and so you'll look at like the you know forb this out uh on like creators who made the most money like Jake Shane like continuously at the top is because his audience like really cares about everything he does. So
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So whether that's a brand promo or an event, um his audience shows up versus you'll have other creators that have 10 times as many followers, but it's sort of like loosely following um to where they don't really care.
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A lot of examples I give is like men or women that are um very attractive but don't necessarily have that connection with the audience and so they have a lot of followers cuz people care to see what they're up to um but they don't really interact with their content versus, you know, somebody that just is like really cares about their audience, their audience really cares about them um and then has that massive pull.
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So, I don't really think it's a a demo that necessarily matters.
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It's just like how strong can you get people to connect with you?
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Um, how many people get can you get to show up for you um if you need and so I think that is the the main thing I would look for when like building an audience is how deeply are people connected to your authentic self.
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>> Do you put a lot of thought into like literally people showing up for that for that content creator of that or for that person like in terms of real life events or physical events and does that even is that within scope of what you're what you're thinking about?
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I mean on the on the sales side um you know a lot of the stuff that people are starting to sell is personal appearances for social media creators or comedians um and anybody doing podcasts and I think that you know obviously having that that backing of like hey we can get you know 20,000 people to show up for a venue um is huge versus like I think we're going to struggle to get people to come to this thing.
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Um, and I think you'll see that at, you know, big temple events, whether it's, uh, the All-Star game or the Super Bowl or, um, Grammy parties or whatever it might be, uh, that saying to a brand like, "Hey, we can get real pull here," is actually the difference of millions of dollars, um, versus like not having that in your back pocket.
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And I think there's plenty of creators that can offer that because they just can't get people to show up.
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Um, but there's also plenty of uh, creators that probably can get people to show up and should.
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Uh, and I think that's a big lever that's not being pulled right now.
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>> When pe when c when these creators are are pulling on these like real life events, how often do you recommend or how often do they want to have some sort of third party sponsor as a part of that event? >> Always.
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>> Or are they just there's are they just saying, you know what, this is going to be some somewhat closed off. Um, >> always. >> Yeah, always.
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Um, I think, you know, there's not a lot of opportunities for creators to make money outside of third parties or starting their own, you know, their own company, which is super challenging.
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And I think it's great that creators are now like full-scale businesses.
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They are the marketing operations.
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They are the uh product, they are uh and they can create separate products.
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Um, but I would always say like, you know, if you can get people to show up for you, I think like doing personal appearances with a brand is super underrated.
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Um, I know obviously you have things that are um, you know, maybe like a a closed off thing, but I think that's because the creator just wants to um, have some authentic time with their fans, but um, I would say like when it comes to Temple events, it's Coachella and stuff like that.
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Um, make your money, you know, so like I'm I'm all for that.
15:55
Tell tell me a little bit about that because we were talking about that the other day how um the use of social media hasn't really changed like one generation to another and it's like the first time in history where you've got one one older generation kind of doing the same thing that a younger generation Yeah.
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Um I think just in general with technology like you don't really see generations shift that quickly to new tech whether it was um software or uh the iPhone or social media you know with uh with Facebook.
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I think a lot of it um has been sort of slow growth and slow adoption.
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And now that I think, you know, with uh with short form content, I think it's allowed plenty of the generations to um sort of come together in the sense of like, you know, 8-year-olds are uh watching Tik Tok and Instagram and 80-year-olds are watching Tik Tok and Instagram.
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Um and I don't think that's ever really happened in a technology shift.
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in a technology shift. I mean even if we think about AI um right we have this group of call it 12 to you know 30 year olds that are all in on AI and then maybe a small section of you know tech executives that are really big on it or just company executives um but that's really it like this middle section um
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doesn't really exist and then the upper section like you know the uh 60 plus is not really like interested in in using AI or if they are it's very slow adoption rate and I think one of the things that's super interesting is like um how simple and easy short form content has been and also how addicting it's been for good or for bad. Um but
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Um but you know I will uh I will say I mean you know whether it's like my parents or my friend's parents um plenty of people are constantly uh you know on the use of short form content and I think that's why the the digital market um in terms of [clears throat] the advertising uh world has grown so dramatically.
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Um, you know, I think it's something like uh $700 billion on digital ad spend uh in the past year, which is insane.
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>> It's so large you can't even really >> you can't even measure it.
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>> Can't even like really appreciate how big that number. >> Yeah.
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And so I think it's just like it it's a really interesting time um both with AI but even just in general on social media um that you have like basically everybody in the world on one technology which is a new technology.
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I mean, short form content is, you know, really start to pick up 2019. So, my guess, 2020.
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Um, and so within six years, you have probably 100% of the demographic using a piece of technology.
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Um, I think it's pretty insane.
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How are sales teams differentiing themselves then in this market? >> Yeah, good question.
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Um, I think a big thing with with sales is like trying to prove that your audience has a unique fit with this brand.
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And I think a lot of it has been typically like, hey, X company, you have budget and we have a great product.
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Um, and there's not much overlap.
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And I think that we're starting to see this world of uh of advertising with short form content, long form content, content in general really see a dip in perceived ROI.
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I think for a long time it was like, oh, we'll have creators or we'll have podcasters promote the product and everybody will know about us and we'll do more sales because everybody knows about us.
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because everybody knows about us. So brand awareness and I think now I think brands are starting to realize like one we have the power of social media too on in our own right we don't need massive creators we can use micro influencers or hire our own marketing team to do um influence where we don't have to pay
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them more than their base salary and so I think you're starting to move to a world in which everything is turning ROI based um so those are like direct response brands um but even for the brands that aren't direct response or don't need to see a huge ROI like Pepsi or Coca-Cola um what they need is like a real proof that there's an audience overlap. And I
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And I think that's what a lot of people are struggling to do.
19:39
I mean, if you're a sales team and you're managing 25 shows, good luck watching all the content, good luck looking at all of the personality social media pages um to see like who's actually using X products, who's actually talking about certain things.
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It's just at the scale even with the AI models, it's it's impossible to figure out all of this.
19:57
And so that's something we're really focused on um is providing proof behind the pitch.
20:01
So figuring out across people's socials like hey maybe you're an agency and you rep a thousand creators and you want to look who's drinking uh Pepsi, right?
20:08
And so you'll look and you'll say, "Oh wow, we have 50 creators that in you know 40% of their vlogs drink Pepsi." Great.
20:15
We can clip that, send that to the brand and really have a differentiating factor rather than just like hey this makes sense because like we have all these creators and you should do a deal with us.
20:23
And then I think additionally like uh there's a world in which like sales teams need to get creative about um the pitch.
20:30
So like that is like appearances that is doing short form personal um which is just starting to I think ramp up.
20:36
I think some companies like our customer wave has been doing that for a long time and now I think sort of uh the general market has realized like oh we need to both be selling personal and uh podcast.
20:46
So like you know both on the the company level but also on their individual and that's how we're going to get the most bang for our buck and figuring out deals um to which we can get some sort of portion of that um to really incentivize this full holistic um integration.
20:59
integration. I see how brands may struggle to one identify ROI or if the budgets are so big whether that's even a priority it's more about like you say audience overlap and um real interest um where they their brand awareness actually makes an impact but for podcasters for creators the ROI is the brand sometimes isn't it right it's
21:20
their sponsorship dollars so how do creators think about ROI is it only ad sales and sponsorships >> they're starting to see this um boom at least with the bigger creators of figuring out how can I be um a part of the marketing engine in a deeper way or how can I be part of the company in a deeper way and I think that's allowing creators to ask for like way better terms. So for instance like hey like I'm
21:44
So for instance like hey like I'm going to promote this but like I also want equity in this company or I also want backend on my promotion.
21:50
So yeah you're going to pay me a million dollars to do this promotion but then I want two and a half% of everything I sell.
21:55
Um, and so I think it's starting to get to a point where um, creators are recognizing their value if they have it, right?
22:02
Like there's still a lot of proof to be had, but if you are recognizing that this is working, like how do we get some sort of percentage of the the upside?
22:08
And then additionally, I think with creators, like a lot of it is working with brands uh, that you see a future with.
22:14
You know, one thing um that I had said to a lot of the creators that we work with is there's no point to work with a brand, you know, for uh three months and then never work with them again because you're essentially like branding yourself alongside them.
22:27
And what you want to look for is brands that have, you know, um that are on the up and up that you can grow with.
22:33
Um and as they grow, you know, maybe there's more opportunities for you to grow alongside them.
22:39
And so I would really encourage uh creators to sort of like define what type of creator they are and work with companies that they truly love rather than just like for a check.
22:47
Um which I think a lot of people fall into because they need to.
22:51
And it's like if you built a social media following and you want to do it as your full-time job, you're going to have to make money somehow and the platforms aren't going to pay you enough.
22:58
Um and so really figuring out like what brands uh do you see a future with is I think super important.
23:03
>> While podcasting is alternative media, it's also been around now, I'd say, for a good hot minute.
23:07
What does this look like in 20 years? >> Yeah.
23:10
Um, on that note, shout out to my my dad.
23:12
My dad had a podcast in the 90s.
23:15
Um, he would do uh interviews with uh Broadway uh producers and put it on a website.
23:21
Um, find the find the link.
23:21
Um, but yeah, shout out to my dad.
23:24
Um, I think in 20 years it looks super interesting in the fact that I think things are going to have to be a lot more personalized.
23:31
Um, I think that, you know, we might start seeing versions of creators or podcasters that are, um, hyper specific to the individual.
23:39
Um, one thing I've been saying for a long time is, you know, Mr.
23:42
Beast has 440 million subscribers.
23:45
And I think there will be 440 million different Mr.
23:47
Beast versions for each person um, based on the data.
23:52
And so, I think this has to be a platform overhaul for the platforms to be really looking and measuring the data.
23:58
data. And I think the platforms potentially have the ability to now work together in a crossplatform manner of like how do we without getting too like big brother but like how to track people from one platform to another to figure
24:09
out what content they're actually interested what are they watching um and then uh to make sure they have the most personalized experience to them and I think really there's sort of this like hockey stick curve moment that I think is coming with personalization. And so
24:20
And so whether that starts out with there being four different Mr.
24:24
four different Mr. increase um for every 100 million people um I think could be an interesting play and I think that your you'll probably start to see that in the next um 5 to 10 years and then hopefully 20 years like you're only watching the content that is most um applicable to you and that you love every moment of it and looking at the
24:42
retention data to make sure every moment that you could be watching content you you're watching the best content for you I think it's a little scary um but I think it's sort of the way the world's uh moving of like just personalized everything um I I mean, you have AI agents working on everything to make your life as personalized and perfect for you. Um, so I don't think content
25:00
Um, so I don't think content would be any different.
25:02
Mass personalization, mass customization. Fascinating.
25:08
But doesn't that go counter against one of the things that's most important to between the creator and the audience, which is keeping like an authenticity or a trust factor?
25:16
And if they think they're just uh watching some AI tweaked version of Mr.
25:21
Beast, does that make it less compelling?
25:25
probably um I don't know if people will care is the thing.
25:27
Um you know I think like content short form content like it's like a drug.
25:32
>> I think if you're just watching like the perfect thing for you I don't know if you like actually care about the authenticity and that you feel this connection.
25:39
And I think there will be creators that will be on their own and and just like um have that authentic connection.
25:45
But I think there will also be people that don't exist um that are creators.
25:48
So AI creators that are making the perfect content for you.
25:50
And so whether that's actually Mr. Beast or that's Mr.
25:53
style videos um or whatever it might be.
25:55
I think you'll have this um duality of AI creators and regular creators and just let the best win.
26:00
Um and I think that you probably um we'll see just because of the bulk content that these AI creators can make that is much better content and perfect for you.
26:12
You'll probably start to see a shift in um adoption there.
26:13
So I want to say it here, just because the creator doesn't exist, i. e.
26:17
an AI creator doesn't mean there can't be in real life events. >> Yeah, totally.
26:24
I mean, >> there's holograms.
26:26
There's I mean, the robots.
26:27
I mean, there's a lot of ways to bring an AI creator into the physical world on in some sort of location. >> Totally.
26:34
And I think a lot of these events that are based around creators, whether it's, you know, temple moments, so Coachella and the Super Bowl, don't actually have a lot to do with the creator themselves.
26:44
I think it's people that like the creator all being around each other.
26:47
And I think the creator as the center point um is super interesting, but like and maybe there's a meet and greet and stuff like now, but it's actually not like the driving factor.
26:55
It's like, oh, so and so is throwing an event and like great, I'll go and I'll support them.
26:58
Uh but also get to be around everybody that's sort of like me that we all have this shared interest.
27:03
Um so I don't see why it wouldn't be different.
27:05
And yeah, you could do holograms and and all that stuff.
27:08
And you know, maybe 20 years we'll have robots. Who knows?
27:11
>> In terms of Super Bowl halftime shows, this year's Bad Bunny.
27:13
this year's Bad Bunny. uh [laughter] like this when Bad Buddy like the the hedges around his performance and people were literally in the in the stand saying I can't even see the show but the show is epic in so many ways across social med >> okay there you go but you probably seen
27:29
a million clips on social media about it and that's that's the that's the point >> yeah [snorts] um I think actually was super interesting um so I was there and yeah I couldn't see anything um on the halftime show um and so you know I'm like watching the big screen um but I think like there's so many, you know, those hedges like um funny story. Um
27:45
Um we're we're sitting uh we're like in the end zone um and we're watching these people run out in like you know hedges like in in grass costumes >> um and we're like oh my god like the hedges are going to start dancing or something and we just figured out like >> just I thought the same exact thing and I was waiting for it to happen totally never happened. >> Me too. Never happened.
28:06
And I started thinking about it and I was like, "Wow, it's just so much more efficient than rolling out these giant, you know, uh, hedge, you know, fake hedges like on wheels."
28:15
Just like, "Yeah, like dress people up and them and just have them run and it'll be much more efficient."
28:19
Um, and >> is that why is that why they did? >> Yeah, 100%. >> Oh god.
28:23
>> And just like a like you think about it, you can have all these people just run and move and make this um, you know, uh, stage without actually having to build the stage.
28:30
Um, which I think was really interesting and also created like some great social media content for them.
28:33
But yeah, I think like you know everything is uh becoming hyper tailored to like the growth um sort of uh economy in the sense of you know I think old Super Bowl halftime shows were probably great like you watch Michael Jackson or Rihanna the you know even whatever that was 5 years ago.
28:55
Um it's like that is probably a great experience for the people at the stadium.
28:59
Um it was a horrible experience for basically everybody at the stadium this year.
29:03
Um, I mean, the music was phenomenal, but like impossible to see anything that was going on.
29:07
Um, and so I think like, you know, it's really saying like, hey, we're gearing this and I actually thought this was like a great stance, but like, um, because it was so controversial.
29:15
Um, and so many people didn't like it.
29:17
It was like, we're going to make sure everybody sees it and so we're going to tailor it for the perfect, you know, TV social media content.
29:23
Um, and we're going to blow this out because who cares about the 80,000 people that are here?
29:25
We care about the, you know, 800 million people that are going to see this.
29:30
Um, which I thought was awesome.
29:32
Uh, and so big uh big Bad Bunny fan.
29:34
Um, first Bad Bunny concert 2017. So I'm I'm an OG. Yeah.
29:41
>> And human and human stages. >> And human stages. Yeah. Um, it was really great. Yeah. What a show.
29:46
Let's talk about the AI creator system overseas.
29:52
What's happening here, China, generative AI generally? I know.
29:55
I mean, we talk about it all the time already just within our teams.
29:59
um how are you seeing that um use in your own workflow, but also um what are some competing forces there that kind of raise your eyebrows?
30:10
>> Yeah, I mean I think short form AI content in general um is is super interesting.
30:16
I think you're starting to see more and more of it um on Instagram, Tik Tok.
30:21
Um but yeah, especially these uh Chinese uh Tik Tok competitors, um I think like a ton of the content uh like maybe the majority is AIdriven content.
30:32
And I actually like think there's a um a huge growing um force there in terms of like we don't really care like if this is a human or not.
30:42
We just want the best content.
30:42
Um and I think that u you know you're starting to see a lot of that.
30:45
I will say like sometimes like I'll watch a piece of content on Instagram reals or something and I won't realize it's AI until like halfway in.
30:51
Um and I think the models are just like getting that good.
30:55
Um and I think even you know like uh Tik Tok's uh competitor in China actually has a video model like that they they are building. >> Talk about choir. >> Yeah.
31:05
So like choir I think has a um AI video model like within their app.
31:08
Um, and so like I think it's just starting to become more and more and so wouldn't be surprised if Tik Tok then allows you to make, you know, AI videos and has a their own model um, and stuff like that just to encourage the the bulk of content because, you know, these platforms are in the business of showing you the most content and keeping you on longer so they can show you more ads.
31:29
Um, and so it's to their benefit to just have more content on there because if you can service more people and they'll watch for longer, um, it benefits them.
31:36
And so, um, I know there's, you know, like, um, uh, Meta has like, you know, AI content flags and and stuff like that.
31:43
And I think they're doing that to make sure people are safe and there's like, um, a difference of like misinformation and stuff like that.
31:48
Um, but I don't know at scale if that's going to keep up because I think people will just want to watch. >> Yeah.
31:54
Or if it's even defensible. Exactly.
31:56
>> I mean, it's like can't stem the tide. >> Exactly.
31:58
And so, um, I think that's super um, super interesting.
32:01
And again, like if you're giving me the best content for me, I don't really care if it's AI, if it's likeformational and I'm getting like my latest news that's perfectly curated to exactly what I want.
32:11
I don't care if an AI is telling me like here's the news and this is everything that happened versus, you know, some talk show host or um some news anchor like how are brands thinking about it though?
32:24
>> Do they care either way?
32:24
I don't really have a good answer.
32:25
>> I don't have a good answer for that. >> Yeah, I don't know.
32:27
If I was a brand, I could probably have a better um analysis.
32:30
But I mean, I think like in terms of how I see brands using AI is like there is so much marketing material that is now being pushed out, whether it's Nike or Porsche, they're all using like AI B-roll.
32:43
And so they're taking like photos of the car, of the shoes, and saying like with AI, let's make this look c in certain ways.
32:49
And so I think they're doing a lot of marketing um around AI video and AI photos and stuff like that.
32:54
But I'm not necessarily sure um how they're thinking about it with creators and podcasts.
32:58
Um but like I know the assets they've been able to make um and how quickly they've been able to make them is unparalleled.
33:06
>> Yeah, the commercial industry has been one of the earliest adopters of generative AI and infusing that in in the commercials and brands don't seem to have a problem with it at all.
33:13
um the economics are just really compelling and so it's interesting how generative AI one the quality of it but also where it takes hold in certain parts of like entertainment and media um has it's not necessarily like a completely like linear adoption or like an all-in-one adoption.
33:31
It's happening in some places faster and sooner than others.
33:33
That's just a result and I think a factor of like the quality of of what you're dealing with.
33:38
And as that stuff gets better, I think one of the holy grails is going to be um actual long form film.
33:46
And and once you start talking about that, I don't I don't think it necessarily replaces Pixar tech or um other types of film formats, but it's just it's just another type of film that people become used to and start enjoying um consuming. >> Yeah.
34:01
I put Paul Walker in like one of those Fast and Furious movies after he was dead.
34:05
So it's like, you know, that was CGI. >> CGI.
34:07
Yeah, >> it's all the same thing. >> Um, right.
34:11
>> It's a different version, different tool.
34:12
>> And I think there's a lot of like AI is catching a lot of flack for the name and what it it is, but like people have been doing some version of uh you know, making things that didn't exist for a long long time um within content.
34:23
Um like you know whether that's making something look like New York but it was filmed in Canada, right?
34:30
Like there's like it happens all the time.
34:32
Um, and so I think like just because it's tech doesn't necessar necessarily mean it's wrong or it's different tech.
34:37
Um, and so, uh, yeah, like it's been happening forever and I think it's just like part of the process.
34:43
And I think even for, you know, these animators, right, that like their jobs getting taken, it used to take them like four years to make a movie.
34:50
Now it takes them like in terms of the animation, like couple weeks.
34:54
Like that's pretty awesome.
34:54
Like now they get to work on, you know, a bunch of of projects.
34:57
I know Pixar uh in general like they had to pitch three movies.
35:01
Um like each writer or each animator had to pick like they had to pitch three different movies.
35:05
Um and so now and they would choose the best one, right?
35:09
And so now if you have a team of 10, instead of pitching three, why not pitch 30?
35:12
You have all the tools to do so.
35:13
And so I think it actually just makes content better.
35:16
And I think it makes the level of content you can create that much more interesting.
35:19
And so I think it just benefits the whole ind industry and benefits um the audience.
35:24
And I think that um I think if it was if it had a different name or if it was associated with something more positive, I don't think anybody would have an issue.
35:31
Um and I think you know one thing I've been seeing is like these uh commencement speeches and how like the graduating class is like booing anytime AI or artificial intelligence is measured. Have you seen those? >> No, I haven't. >> Okay.
35:44
So it's like you know it's like uh somebody speaking at UC at Ford at um you know really like any like any school and I saw this whole compilation.
35:52
and I saw this whole compilation. like they uh they'll mention like oh the growth of AI or artificial intelligence and the whole graduating class buoying and it's like >> I I don't I think it's like insane um and you know I think we are also like trapped in this like tech world and venture world um and so we see like all
36:09
the positives um but I think a lot of people are just seeing like this as a as a negative and um I would I would hate for that to actually be the case because like you know I remember watching that and I was like you know AI did your homework like why are you booing it like this helped you get through Um, so I think that's my that's my take. >> That's great. Um, [laughter] no to go >> That's great.
36:26
>> That's great. Um, [laughter] no to go back to even you go back to movies even how I think certain types of formats and movies will come back into fashion like the original like when Harry met Sally romcom like doesn't really get made anymore or if it not for the big screen if it does it gets made like an episodic or like a miniseries format or it's on
36:44
Netflix and and it's just a different totally format but like something like that comes back into play when AI can totally generate the setting in every single scene and it's a new and it's a specific speific spot in New York or in Paris or wherever and like suddenly like production value the production costs of that film will just go way way down. And
37:02
And yes, you can make it faster, but also you can make a different type of movie that people probably haven't seen in 10 years or 20 years.
37:11
>> Oh yeah, you can make a movie you want to make without the budget of the the studios needing to give you, you know, $300 million to make this movie.
37:16
Yeah, there might be a way there might be a a renaissance in like the pool away from like Marvel cinematic huge big budget movies where that becomes 90% of what you see in theaters and maybe goes back down to a lower percentage but because other types of films come out.
37:33
>> I I mean I think something that's super interesting is uh probably you know it's not um content related but just the I think the overall job creation that will probably happen with AI.
37:43
Tell me more about that because everyone talks about AI and like the scarcity mindset like it's going to replace jobs but I actually think it's going to but anytime we talk about innovation I think there's a there's a net positive that happens. >> Yeah.
37:54
I mean I was talking about this last night at dinner but like even if you just think about like the HVAC industry like you know how many jobs are going to be created to cool all these data centers like uh hundreds of thousands of jobs in the US to like in in HVAC that will probably pay pretty damn well.
38:09
Um or you know I heard uh a bunch of actually different people give this uh analogy but about radiologists and it's like oh AI can now analyze X-rays so all radiologists won't have jobs.
38:20
It's like no people are just going to like get more X-rays or like people are going to like need to understand every little thing a tiny bit better.
38:25
So there's just going to be more jobs or um there's going to be more software engineers nonetheless.
38:31
I think this is a huge one that everybody's like oh rest in peace to all the software engineers.
38:35
Um which I don't necessarily believe is true at all.
38:37
I think there are so many things in our daily life that like we could use software for that we don't because it's too expensive to build for a marginal benefit technical barrier of knowledge. >> Exactly.
38:47
Um or it's like hey that doesn't really matter to have software because like I'll just get by and like plenty of things in my life that I'm like could be improved by software that I'm just like I put up with or I do the process because it is what it is and like there's no worth building a piece of software for it.
39:00
Um but now because you can build software for anything.
39:02
Um I think there's just going to be 100x the amount of software needed to be built and software engineers will need to build that because in order to make it production grade it can't be vibe coded like it just won't happen.
39:14
I think what you'll see is a a revolution of everything getting just getting software attized.
39:20
Um and so uh I'm uh I'm very excited about the industry in general.
39:26
And you know, one thing I heard um Jeff Bezos say yesterday was uh this is like, you know, digging out your basement with a shovel and somebody comes along with a bulldozer and it's like, "Let me help you."
39:36
And it's like, "Why wouldn't you say yes?"
39:38
Like it's just going to help.
39:40
Um or even uh the fact that, you know, like right now, um most uh households are like dual income, but like it might not need to be.
39:47
It might need to be single income because you can just be that much more productive.
39:50
there's this um I think there's this like mindset that uh AI is like going to hurt and I think that it probably will hurt if you think that um or if you don't adopt it, right?
40:02
Uh and I think it's like all a mindset like I uh I just turned 25 and I was probably going to work a regular job and like I was not a programmer.
40:12
I was like I was going to be working in podcasting and selling podcast ads which is a great business like make great money.
40:18
Um, but I think the level of impact uh that I've been able to have because of AI and just adopting AI and it's like I get to work with phenomenal people, hundreds of people that are impacted by our product and by what we do is like the most rewarding thing ever.
40:35
Money aside and I think like so many people don't realize like you can change thousands of people's lives by saying like, "Wow, I have this painoint. I solve this for myself.
40:45
I can probably solve this for a lot of people."
40:47
And I think it's never been easy to start a company.
40:48
I think it's never been easier to build a product um and get it out to millions of people with short form content.
40:54
Um and so I would say like all of these like new grads that are booing AI is like you have the opportunity to like one make a ton of money um right now because you are the right generation for it.
41:04
Uh but also like you can just benefit your own life.
41:08
Like if you're going to go work a corporate job, build AI agents to automate the stuff you hate about your corporate job.
41:13
There's like a million things to do.
41:15
Um and so like I think you just have to dive in.
41:17
Uh because I think this is like the biggest revolution in history and you know I've been going to like AI conferences for like four years before like AI.
41:25
I remember thinking like >> I'm sure the nature of those conferences has changed even four years. >> Oh my god.
41:29
It used to be like AI is the biggest thing that's going to happen and now it's like okay it's here and we like thought it would be like a quarter of the size.
41:36
Um and I think like this is I mean this is in my opinion 10 times as big as the internet.
41:42
Um I think this is going to be every company.
41:43
I think you're actually going to start to see a uh a break up of these like semi-large companies.
41:51
I think there's going to be these huge companies which are these model companies um OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, etc.
41:57
Uh and then you're going to see like all of these small niche companies in AI and in software that are, you know, much smaller market cap.
42:05
Uh, and I don't think there's going to be any like uh500 billion dollar software companies that exist because they're just going to get crushed by the models or they're going to get crushed by the really small company doing it better.
42:16
Um, and this is I think this is a big thing like >> everything that can be like hypervertical is going to exist and then everything that isn't is just going to be these large language models.
42:24
So, insurance, large language models, but you know, maybe specific type of um you know, unique insurance that's like a super one-off like very much these small companies um or even in like podcasting, >> classic cars insurance. >> Exactly. >> Yeah.
42:43
>> And so I think like you're going to have these model companies, these five model companies that are going to be worth tens of trillions of dollars.
42:48
Um I mean the Anthropic is going to be worth a trillion dollars this year.
42:53
They're going to do a trillion dollars in revenue in a few years.
42:54
Um, and then you're going to have all these smaller companies that are super hypervertical, uh, and have the ability to just service their customer better than large language models.
43:04
But the companies in the middle that are just doing regular software that are now worth couple hundred billion, I don't think stand a chance.
43:11
Um, and I think like it's it's a very concerning time for like those companies, but I think like everybody else that's fresh, it's like how can you pick something that's a smaller industry?
43:22
And I think like the investing world too from from your side as a as a VC is like there are companies that are going to be worth trillions of dollars and there's probably companies that can just be worth billions of dollars and like that's probably it.
43:33
Um like there's there's not going to be, you know, hundred billion dollar companies um in software.
43:40
I think it's just going to be the models and like everybody else on the smaller side.
43:43
Um, and so it's really interesting time to be like a semi-large company and I I'd wonder how um Salesforce and and all these other companies um feel and I think like um you know they obviously have a great integrated product that's very sticky and so I think the like short term is probably like pretty bright.
44:01
I mean the revenue keeps going up and up and up.
44:02
Um but I wonder like you know 20 50 years from now what does that look like?
44:06
Um because obviously like this break up of like the small companies and the massive companies isn't going to happen in the next five years.
44:13
People are still stuck in their workflows and stuff like that.
44:16
But slowly like you can have Anthropic make you a CRM.
44:18
You can have it do all your automated emails.
44:20
You can have it build your entire Salesforce pipeline.
44:23
Uh you can have it do data enrichment.
44:24
You can have it do everything.
44:24
Um so it's an interesting it's interesting time or like you know Figma like stuff like that.
44:31
Like Figma is great and it um you know helps companies ship software and I actually like I'm sort of bullish on Figma.
44:36
Um I think nobody is uh but like because of the software boom I think you all need some version of Figma.
44:43
Um because you know cloud design is great um but you still need it to be productized and I think Figma has a lot of room to grow.
44:49
Um but even stuff like that like it's not a hundred billion dollar company.
44:53
I mean the market just showed that.
44:55
Um and so I think you're just going to have these companies that are like super niche and these companies that are extremely general and nothing in the middle.
45:03
I think if you have nothing in the middle, what you have is really a larger SMB um economy.
45:06
really a larger SMB um economy. So small mediumsized businesses that you know oscillate between um you know making a run at growing um but also our lifestyle businesses um run by you know what we would have considered mom and pop maybe
45:23
10 years ago but being run by mom and pop um at that level and they become lifestyle companies that are actually profitable and it's just a different type of middle class to anywhere from like lower to middle to upper middle class that that comes into existence. Um, and and if that's the case, you
45:40
Um, and and if that's the case, you know, I I think you have to think about how that eventually gets consolidated because there's just always going to be a like a recycling.
45:50
There's a cyclical play when you know, you have um when you have a decentralized set of companies and they're all maybe hyper hyper specialized.
46:00
specialized. I think you always have another person that comes in and says how can we combine how can we aggregate how can we optimize even this and so you know I don't know if that happens when you have the you know tens of trillions
46:14
of dollars type companies that are in the background because um especially in in in advertising in advertising technology a decade ago one of the most common refrains when an ad tech company was pitching an investor is what if Apple decides to what cut you off, cut you out. What if Google decides to cut
46:31
What if Google decides to cut you off or cut you out?
46:33
And that that's the same exact narrative that's going to begin happening where like great, you're this type of hyper specialized vertically vert verticalized company, but what if you lose access or what if anthropic or anthropic or or open AI decide to do what you're doing tomorrow?
46:51
And and and so there's always a risk there.
46:52
But what I think people realize if if you kind of maybe go a level deeper is that Apple and Google never really kicked a lot of people out.
46:58
And so it actually ended up being like a huge net positive and an additional part of the economy um that that was able to to just to live. Um >> totally. Yeah.
47:09
I think you know obviously like the the model companies need the small businesses to pay their APIs and to keep them alive.
47:14
Like it's where the majority of the revenue is coming from is from businesses.
47:18
Um, and so I think the I'd be less worried on like the the niche stuff of like what if they cut you out, but what if they do what you start doing or what if the models become so good that your niche company doesn't matter.
47:30
Um, I think is is super interesting.
47:33
I do think though that like the the big company is never going to be able to service this specific exact customer and make them feel like this product was extremely built just for them.
47:43
Um, which I think is the difference.
47:45
And I think customers will be willing to pay for like this product was made just for me which is why I think these companies will be smaller because you can't make that many just for me companies.
47:53
And so like you know um Anthropic is not going to come and take your you know like even like my business like the market's not big enough right but like are they going to do insurance?
48:03
Are they going to do a healthcare? Absolutely.
48:04
Are they going to do finance? Absolutely.
48:06
There's a million of these other verticals that are trillion dollar industries.
48:10
Um which is why like I'm sort of bullish on this take is like you need to pick a niche.
48:15
you need to monopolize the niche and figure out growth later, but you need to be really good at doing something that yeah, maybe short isn't the biggest market in the world.
48:21
Um, but that you can make the forme product.
48:23
Um, and that's sort of what I say is like I want the the customer experience to be like, wow, they made this in-house for us.
48:30
Like that's how I want it to feel.
48:30
Then there's only so much you can grow with that before you have to change up the way you you think about um your company and and doing products.
48:37
But it's also why like companies like Palunteer and um all these forward deployed companies that do it really well because they go in, they look at your business, they spend a couple months doing it and they say, "Okay, great.
48:47
We know how everything works.
48:48
We're going to make you custom software for you."
48:49
And so they're actually like, you know, Palunteer is like a consulting company.
48:54
Like they're a software consulting company.
48:55
There is, you know, as much as Deote or McKenzie that come into your business and okay, yep, we know what's wrong.
49:00
We know how to fix things and we'll make you software.
49:01
um yet they're also getting um you know the the ARM multiples like SAS companies which is kind of crazy.
49:08
Um, [snorts] but I think that's sort of where you're going is just like how can you make custom solutions for like specific companies in specific like niche industries.
49:15
And then I think uh sort of what you were saying um on on that growth side is I think that like these companies are going to be huge.
49:23
And I think that like they're going to be more nation states than they are companies.
49:27
And I think that like it's we're playing a very dangerous game where like you're giving the power to like five people.
49:32
Um, and it's just like you get into a point where like they don't want to be public companies because being public company now sucks and uh their valuation >> they'll say the SpaceX. >> Yeah, exactly.
49:44
But I mean I I think SpaceX would be a private company if they thought they could raise money at, you know, 1.
49:50
75 trillion in the private markets. They just can't.
49:52
Um, but you have, you know, Anthropic is going to raise at 900 billion where in the public market it probably can't get 900 billion.
49:59
Um, but in the private markets definitely can. no problem.
50:01
And so I think they're going to try to stay in the private markets for as long as possible.
50:07
Um which leads them to just like have less customer favorability when it comes to like feeling a part of this company.
50:14
I think that like you'll get to a point where um you know like if Anthropic or Opening Eye was a public company and people could invest and they'd be happy for the growth, they'd want to see more and so you wouldn't have I think so much like um booing at graduations because people people could feel like they could take part in the upside.
50:30
But I think they're going to try to stay private companies for as long as possible and you know potentially not even when they go to fund raise in the public markets not raise that much.
50:37
I think SpaceX is only raising 75 billion out of 1.
50:42
75 trillion and so like they're not giving up really any percentage of the company.
50:46
Um, and so I think like it's it's going to be really interesting um to look at how these model companies operate and then also like how they give back um in a way to the people or else like it's there's going to be like riots.
50:59
Um one one thing I heard this week was, you know, when um Hershey's was making their factory in Hershey, Pennsylvania, uh they made a theme park, amusement park, right?
51:08
Like they have like roller coasters.
51:10
Um I was like, "Yeah, sorry for like creating all this traffic noise and pollution in your town.
51:16
And so here's an amusement park.
51:17
It's like what is the equivalent to that for the model companies?
51:19
Like hey, sorry for putting a data center in your backyard and sorry for like creating all this havoc.
51:26
Like what can we do to give back?
51:27
Like >> universal basic income. >> Exa Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. But like Exactly.
51:32
>> Well, as as the companies get huge, um back in 2022, 2023, there was actually a lot of discussion around how actual nation states would have their own nation state models, their own AI models.
51:43
Um, I think that conversation's gone a little bit by the wayside just with the growth around the privates like like Anthropic and Open AI, but that could very well just come back into into the dialogue into the fold.
51:57
Um, these companies are getting so big that may maybe they're just partially owned or or partially they're heavily regulated to the point where it becomes like a phone company. >> Yeah.
52:09
You know, I used I used to think there was a scenario in which um OpenAI could no longer raise enough money to continue to grow the way they wanted to grow with with their burn and so they were going to have to like rely on the government.
52:22
I no longer think like that.
52:25
Like I mean I used to think like this 6 months ago um that like yeah I think they're just going to grow so fast and I don't think they're they're going to be able to raise enough money and they're going to be the most powerful company potentially in the world.
52:34
Um this is before Anthropic obviously like went on tear.
52:37
Um, but like they're uh who's going to fund them?
52:40
The government and then the government's going to have an AI and then you're going to be asking all your personal questions, right?
52:45
And so like all this stuff um in the same way of like um I think there was you know a couple years ago there was this fear that um you know quantum computing would basically like break everything.
52:59
>> Um and so that like you know it would break all your communication systems.
53:02
And so uh you know there was this scenario I had thought of in my head which was like if it happens and for instance like you can't send any encrypted messages and right everything is just out in the public.
53:11
the government has to create some anti-quantum uh computing phone, right?
53:15
So now you're on a government phone, right?
53:17
And now they're listening to everything you say.
53:20
And there's a world in which like >> So we're back to where we started. >> Exactly.
53:22
There's just this this world in which it's like an it's an infinite loop of um just like you know corruption of like you know privacy and like I think there's there's a world in which like there's stuff like that that's scary.
53:37
Um, and I think these AI companies are like verging on like the the scary side for like most people.
53:42
Um, I'm obviously like super bullish on on these companies.
53:45
I think these companies are great for the world.
53:46
Um, but I don't think if they don't start giving back to the public in some sense, I like I think there will be like riots in the streets like for real.
53:53
Um, so it's going to be it's going to be interesting.
53:58
I mean, short-term disruption would lead to higher rates of unemployment um across like younger populations, which which is always a recipe for volatility.
54:08
Um and also real and also a recipe for more socialist mindset, I would argue.
54:15
>> It's been doing pretty fun conversation. >> I know.
54:16
I mean, you speak at like a thousand words a minute. >> Yeah. We got a lot here.
54:21
>> Well, it helps when you're an expert in something and you've devoted your life to something to be really, really good at it.
54:26
I think you speak very very quickly.
54:28
Anybody would speak very very quickly because there's just a high degree of confidence and knowledge around it.
54:32
So, um I think that comes through. So, thanks for the time. Thanks for coming out.
54:36
And uh maybe we'll do we're going to do we're going to do another one of these. >> I'm in. Cheers. [music]