0:00
There's like Build-A-Bear for bears, like we can be the like build anything store.
Search this video
0:03
Like I want to be able to like go somewhere and just build like almost like What's that thing from Star Trek?
0:08
>> Captain Picard says >> Tea, Earl Grey, hot.
0:11
>> That beverage has not been programmed into the replication system.
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>> Sketch, sketch again, mold it, reshape it, trash it, and then start all over.
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This is how product design used to work for cars, shoes, clothes, and more.
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But one company is changing all that.
0:24
This concept is a new design tool for designing the real world, turning dream sketches into three concepts in minutes with AI.
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And companies like New Balance, Ford, Canon, and more are already using it.
0:37
This week on Access, you'll hear the full story from founder Jordan Taylor's first jobs at Honda and Nvidia to building a tool for designing the future of, well, everything. Let's get into it.
0:51
It's a funny time to be chatting with someone at the center of both hardware and software design.
0:56
We have to talk about the Ferrari Luce, and we need to get your thoughts ASAP. What do you think?
1:03
>> First, how do you say Luce? Luce? Luce? Luce? Luce?
1:11
>> I think it's Luce, like Italian, like a you know, like an Italian like kind of vibe. >> For light. >> Yeah.
1:16
No, you know, it's interesting.
1:16
I actually like it as a product, right?
1:22
Like Now, is it a Ferrari?
1:25
>> off like a serious burn. >> Okay.
1:29
Like the brand, I don't know, like Ferrari is the thing to represent that as a product, maybe not, but like it standalone, no badges, like I'm like, "Oh, this is great.
1:39
This is like a great like product."
1:41
I think just when you put the like Ferrari brand on it, it just sets such a like expectation or like preconceived notion that you're kind of like it confuses you.
1:51
I don't know, it's like an illusion, but I I like it. I'm a fan. I'm actually a fan.
1:54
I love the interior the most.
1:56
>> I love the interior as well.
1:56
I got to see the interior in person with Johnny actually a few months ago.
2:00
And it was crazy cuz it was the first time that a car had been unveiled like this where they showed the interior to everyone before the exterior.
2:08
And then they had a another event before this that I didn't go to where they just talked about the the drivetrain or I don't even know what you call that with an EV and the software.
2:21
So they were staging it out and when we saw the interior it was like um I don't know.
2:26
We talked about this on a past episode.
2:27
It was exploded out like iPhone parts that are on a table, right?
2:32
And um you could like sit in You couldn't sit in it but you could see part of the cockpit.
2:36
So it was really strange.
2:37
They were showing like part of it and no one could really infer what the thing looked like and I guess it's because uh they knew that the exterior was going to be so controversial. I don't know.
2:46
It was a very unique uh experience seeing the interior of the car.
2:51
>> That's all Yeah, I saw the I know exactly what you're talking about.
2:52
It's kind of like almost like floating like exploded view.
2:55
Yeah, I saw images of that.
2:56
Yeah, no, it's it is worth celebrating so it was it was really cool.
3:00
>> Well, I know you've worked at Honda in the past.
3:01
You've worked in car design.
3:03
Now you make an app for designing cars and other products.
3:06
Do you think uh the process of shipping something as controversial as that is going to change or at the end of the day it still just comes back to getting executive sign off on something crazy? >> Yeah.
3:20
Like do you think it Do I think it's going to change like they're going to go back and like redo it or something like that or >> Yeah.
3:27
>> Yeah, I don't know like >> Oh, they're not redoing it else. Come on. >> No, no.
3:30
You know, like >> It's a $650,000 car.
3:33
>> It's it's an expensive change and it's not like the Sonic movie where you can just like go back.
3:37
Remember when the Sonic movie first came out and they kind of had a similar like like reaction and uh no.
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I think they're just going to roll with the punches.
3:45
It's like it's controversial now but I think it'll age very well.
3:50
I think maybe like our grandkids might be like, "Oh my god, you were there when the Lucid like woah."
3:55
Like I don't know, who knows.
3:57
>> Why do you think it will age well?
3:59
Cuz it looks like um like yeah, I don't mean to insult your former employer, but like a like a Honda concept car meets a Tony Stark Audi or something like that.
4:10
It just doesn't look like Ferrari at all. >> I know. I know.
4:13
I'm I guess it kind of depends on what the what the catalog of products will be, but to kind of like support it, but like is it just like a one-off thing or is it kind of like a grander like are we going to see an SUV follow up and look like this, right?
4:27
Like that definitely matters a lot, but it definitely has this like staple in like the tell of the times.
4:32
Like I feel like the Cybertruck had a similar like oh wow, that's more of like a tell of the times as much as it is like a product that's meant to make money in some It was like more of this like expression. I don't know.
4:43
I just think it's like one of those things we'll like be able to like point to and be like, "Oh yeah, that was that moment in time for this brand and like it's iconic because of that more so than like the way it looks and and things like that. Yeah, I don't know. It's cool.
4:54
I think the story around it is just interesting.
4:58
>> So one more question before we take a step back and talk about the origins of Vizcom.
5:03
I know every AI model has its preferences.
5:06
When you start riffing on ideas about a car with Vizcom, is it pro tactile buttons or pro screens and software buttons? >> Oh man. Oh man.
5:16
I mean, it it really comes down to the intention of course, but like I'm someone personally when it comes to cars, I do like the buttons, not going to lie.
5:26
Like there's just something about when you're driving and like I'm just like trying to change like one thing, one thing.
5:31
I got to like go through the menus and stuff. It gets really hard.
5:35
Now, the argument is like, "Well, if the car's driving itself, you don't need to." But I don't know.
5:38
I just think there's something about it responding to you in some way that feels tactile.
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Like tactile or that like tactile tactile. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we go. Um >> Lucha Lucid. doesn't matter. Tacto.
5:51
>> Yeah, tact Kyle tacto I don't know, but essentially yeah, who I think it yeah, comes down to the intentions, but I'm pro buttons.
5:57
We have we have enough screens. Yeah, we got this thing.
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>> Yeah, you know, it was interesting.
6:01
I think it was with Cleo Abrams Johnny Ive was giving an interview with the for the final unveil of the exterior and talking about multi-touch and he said something when I was there for the junket for the interior as well about how multi-touch is just not designed for a car and I mean he helped work on multi-touch and invent multi-touch.
6:20
So he knows what he speaks of, but the idea that you're interacting with an interface and touching a screen and this kind of flat UI that you really have to visually look at does not make sense for a car at all.
6:35
In fact, it's quite dangerous.
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And so I guess if you were going to approach an interface in a car from first principles, you would go pretty analog, wouldn't you?
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>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's >> about >> You know, like foundationally multi-touch is not a bad idea.
6:47
I think it's just like the context in which you're putting that is matters a lot, right? Like >> Yeah.
6:54
>> iPad kid Roblox daycare like okay like yes, that makes sense.
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But like okay, I'm trying to like get home safely.
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Like yeah, like it's just the context of that is just a little bit odd in the situation.
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But yeah, it's I think they they found a really good Oh, I love how you can like rotate the screen by the like handlebar. >> Oh, that's so cool. >> Yeah, it's so cool.
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I think that I think >> Another thing Johnny was showing us was he was obsessed with the vents.
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The vents are aluminum and they have this clicking noise, this very satisfying magnetic almost clicking noise when they open and close.
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And he would just like he kept like opening and closing them in front of us.
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It was the most Johnny Ive thing ever. >> Of course.
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>> The subtext is that the tactile things are more satisfying.
7:38
And I think that's one of the fun things about doing what you do, Jordan, making software for the real world, as you say, is that whether it is the ridges on a clog that you're making, like a Salehe Bembury, you know, clog, or whatever it is, or the knobs in a car.
7:55
It's like human beings enjoy tus- touching and twisting buttons and pressing things and turning things and doing their turn signal or whatever.
8:05
And I think in some senses, you know, Tesla talks about uh how much simpler it is, but I feel like that's just a disguise for how much cheaper it is to not have any of the physical buttons. Yeah.
8:16
That's how they made the car so cheap. >> Yeah, I know.
8:18
Sometimes you can lean into the the consequences as like a feature. But, uh I I don't know.
8:24
There's just something, if we go back to when we're like kids and babies, like babies, for some reason, they learn you learn through touch.
8:32
Like I I I tended like Montessori school for a bit when I was a kid, and like we learned so much through play, which was like just like a fascinating thing. I don't know.
8:39
There's something very innately human about like physical interactions, especially in today's time, which we can I could talk about forever.
8:48
Um but, yeah, it's an interesting thread to to go down.
8:52
>> Well, switching gears, take us back a little bit.
8:54
How did Vizcom come to be?
8:54
I know there was a viral Reddit post.
8:57
I know you built an Instagram account that had tons of followers for concept design.
9:04
Take Take us back to where it all started. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. So, let's see.
9:09
So, yeah, so my back- grounds in car design.
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I went to school, art school.
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And at this time, you know, there's Art Center in Pasadena, kind of like out where you are, Ellis.
9:16
We have that in the Midwest called CCS.
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And there's like these design schools all around the states.
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And I think Behance was kind of the only place where you could see what other designers were doing.
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We were always curious, like, oh, what are other students doing?
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So, I created this community called Designers Pen on Instagram, purely around car design.
9:31
And that's kind of how I originally started, I guess, like Vizcom.
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I I came at it from the the community first approach.
9:39
So, fast forward to like 2020, 2019 or so, I started working at Nvidia.
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At the time, like the state-of-the-art models, this is like super dating me, but like like BERT was like this language model back then that was like state-of-the-art.
9:52
It could like tell you the price of a burger and it was called StyleGAN as well on the image side, right?
9:58
So, just these early inklings of just seeing like what computers can do in this untraditional way.
10:04
I was like, "Wow, like you're telling me this can generate a human face of someone that like doesn't exist."
10:09
It was It was really bad.
10:09
The quality was like literally like a Nintendo Game Boy Advance kind of situation.
10:14
But, I was like, "Oh, wow, like >> Was this pre-Will Smith eating spaghetti?
10:19
>> Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:19
This is pre-like even the idea of generating a video was still like very sci-fi.
10:22
It was like, "Oh, that's 20 years out or something."
10:26
Um, but, you know, that little inkling of just seeing it do what it could at the time, I was like, one I had gave me enough conviction, but it also was like the signal of, "Oh, this is the worst this will ever be."
10:38
Uh, so, fast forward, COVID happened and I was like, "Okay, well, I'm now we're all working from home and I have some time to kind of do my own thing for a bit.
10:45
So, that's when I made that Reddit post.
10:47
I I trained a CycleGAN, which was this convolutional neural net on my own artwork from school to see if it could generate a car design of sorts.
10:56
Um, and it could and it was really bad and it was meant to be something that was a starting point for designers.
11:02
I never meant for it to be something to like generate a perfect car.
11:05
I was like, "Oh, this is going to be something where people draw on top of to further develop."
11:09
Um, so, I made a Reddit post about this.
11:11
It was like a really bad React app.
11:14
Um, but then I I I woke up and I was like, "Oh, wow, like a lot of people actually resonated with this.
11:17
Like, let me just keep developing it."
11:19
And then my co-founder, who I've known since fifth grade or so, which is kind of crazy. And he was in Michigan.
11:25
I was like, "Yo, dude, like so, I got this extra room in Mountain View.
11:28
Like all my roommates went back home because of COVID.
11:30
Like you should come move in with me and we'll work on this thing.
11:33
Like, I don't have a name for it yet, but we'll like we'll work on it.
11:36
It kind of like renders your drawings for you.
11:37
And he was like, "Oh, that's kind of cool." So, Caylin drove out.
11:40
Uh then we just kind of like grinded that out for We had So, I left and then living off my savings for quite some time.
11:46
Um and we live by a Costco.
11:49
So, shout out to Costco, man.
11:50
Those hot dogs came in clutch cuz they're like a dollar fifty. You can get one for one.
11:55
>> uh peak Is that not peak product design? >> Oh, definitely.
11:58
When it comes to pricing and packaging, like, the Costco hot dog is like that's what you should aspire to get there.
12:06
Yeah, so that's kind of the the short end of the story, but that's that's kind of how the originally came off the ground.
12:11
It was just like having the foresight, but then also the insight into how designers work, which which was myself.
12:18
I was just like building this for myself.
12:19
And then I wasn't like trying to like build a company.
12:21
I I wasn't like, "Yo, like, I got to be Mark Zuckerberg.
12:25
Like, I got to build a company."
12:26
Like, like that wasn't like my intention at >> But you did have the house uh in the South Bay. >> Yeah, I did.
12:33
>> You were zucking it a little bit. >> Slightly, slightly. I was in Mountain View.
12:36
But like I was like I wasn't like my intention at all.
12:38
It just kind of like happened on accident.
12:40
Um but yeah, that's a little bit about how how it started and uh the problem space.
12:44
But >> Yeah, shout out Costco, the only product uh the Costco hot dog that resists inflation. Uh I think.
12:54
Uh Yeah, that that is a unique aspect of of that that I always enjoy about Costco.
13:01
>> Yes, and the rotisserie chicken as well, which is a money maker for them.
13:05
And the pizza, all of it.
13:06
>> Uh glizzys, the perfect shape, the perfect product design, and tactility, warmth, all the things humans need. >> Yes.
13:15
>> Um well, how many So, how many designers are using Viscom now? >> Uh let's see.
13:19
Um >> And do their bosses know?
13:25
>> So, definitely in the the hundreds of thousands.
13:27
Uh I don't have I don't know the exact number.
13:28
Their bosses do know and it's because it's very much like a bottoms up thing where they're usually bringing it to them versus the other way around.
13:37
Um cuz we we put a lot of emphasis on students especially and you know, I think when students graduate or get internships, they they usually bring this come with them as well.
13:44
So it's it's I would say you know, even when we first started talking LSD, the zeitgeist or the the sentiment around AI I would say AI has had probably one of the worst PR um things in the last like either eight or 12 month.
13:58
I don't know what changed or it's kind of always had a rough thing, but I I don't know.
14:02
It's >> Jordan, what changed is they said all your jobs are going to go away.
14:05
That's that's what changed.
14:08
>> Yeah, like when that turns >> Turns out people don't like that very much.
14:10
It went from we're going to make a robot move and we're going to make Will Smith spaghetti to your jobs are going away. That's what happened.
14:19
>> Yeah, I know and it's it's it's played in our favor in the sense of being able to stick out even more in that way, but yeah, it's it's it's it's fast you know, I I think one thing about Vizcom even from the get-go, I was always obsessed with this idea of the drawing.
14:35
Like the drawing is the starting point and there's something about a drawing that is just so innately irreplaceable.
14:42
It's similar like language, right?
14:43
It's like we're always going to be talking or communicating to each other verbally through audio in some way, but I think a drawing like I think that's where the name comes from.
14:52
Like visual communication like Vizcom.
14:54
Like so and what when in a world where we're leaning on the human capabilities and and in a world where it's like automation versus acceleration, right?
15:02
Like I'm very much in this camp of like accelerating how designers already work and how they already think versus like yo, we're going to create this like overlord thing that's trying to like get rid of all of it, right?
15:12
Like I think that's not the right approach in this space, but that's how I think about it personally.
15:17
Um but >> that like in like a like a sarcastic way.
15:21
Like yo, we're going to create this overlord, but like people are literally saying that these days.
15:25
Like it's not it's like not even a joke.
15:27
Like what was it yesterday, Alex?
15:29
Like the Anthropic people were saying you said this in your newsletter.
15:32
They're like, we're building God.
15:35
>> Yeah, I mean Bill Gurley has this great thing he calls the Dr.
15:37
Frankenstein theory of Anthropic, which is that they actually believe they're building this crazy all-powerful deity.
15:43
And I actually do think many people there believe that.
15:47
I don't think they don't view themselves as like a a normal tech company. >> Oh yeah.
15:51
>> A lot of the AI researchers do believe this.
15:53
And so then it's interesting to use those models to build a product like what you're building.
15:58
And I was going to ask this um earlier, but it's it's I think even more interesting now.
16:03
Like I'm curious how you use the models.
16:05
And when you started, were you using a specific model?
16:10
Like was there an insight with a model that you were specifically using that you said, oh, I need to build a product layer around this?
16:15
And then how are you using the models now? >> Totally. Totally.
16:19
Um so back then, the first model we were using was called StyleGAN 2.
16:23
And this came from Nvidia.
16:26
Um and at this time, there was no idea of like what's called like text conditioning.
16:32
So you couldn't like use text to like create something.
16:36
You just It was domain specific.
16:36
You give it images and you just press a button and you get something randomly.
16:41
Like there was no control per se. >> What was this? 2023? >> This is 2021.
16:47
Uh 2021, I guess I sent you guys an old demo video of like what our first pitch looked like.
16:51
Uh but yeah, 2021 and then fast forward a few years, uh uh Stable Diffusion came out, right?
16:57
So I don't know if you guys remember Stability AI.
16:58
That was like a huge thing.
16:59
And then once the diffusion models became kind of the new standard, uh we we just moved over to that because I was like, wait, so you're telling me not only can I give it a drawing, I could also give it like text description to help guide that drawing in some way.
17:13
So that was like a massive unlock.
17:13
And then that's when control started becoming super important cuz it's like, okay, we're now going from this random shotgun approach thing to this more, hey, my intentions can really come through.
17:25
Um and then kind of fast forwarding till today, it's like now we have these like consistency models that can like really understand what you're trying to do.
17:32
Like that that intention translation is no longer a problem as much as it was before.
17:36
So, this is kind of now a collection of like, you know, a lot of open source models, but like some of the the big models, of course, like Claude to help us like translate, okay, like what's the intention from the user?
17:45
How does the model best understand that?
17:49
Um and then some of the off-the-shelf image models, you know, you got like the the nano bananas of the world, the Quins, things of that nature, um to then kind of help, you know, actually distill those images.
17:58
So, so yeah, that's kind of how it works today.
18:00
We're we're more so focusing on the what do what are the capabilities these models unlock rather than kind of like, okay, let's start from the text first as far as like, how do we invent some brand new thing?
18:13
Let's kind of focus on the problems.
18:14
And then really understand what are the user pain points and then kind of ask ourselves, okay, like what Okay, now how does the model fit in that situation?
18:23
>> So, uh I remember back when we worked together, I don't know, it was like a couple years ago at this point, um you said that a sketch is better than a text prompt for AI or maybe it has more character, more elements of your individuality.
18:39
Um do you do you still believe that? Why is that? >> Yeah.
18:43
I just think there's this like I don't know if you guys are working out, you ever heard some someone say like, oh, the muscle mind connection or like when you're working out and you're actually like thinking about it, you can like feel it almost more and you're like, whereas when you're kind of like autonomously like, ah, I'm just going to like get it done.
18:57
Like there's just something about like the mind and like your hands and the intention you can get across with that like connection versus trying to describe like like right now if I try to describe a green cube in like this like igloo room.
19:13
Like I could probably get something, but in my head I have a very clear and I have the ability to sketch.
19:18
Like what does a green cube look like in an igloo?
19:20
Exactly how I Jordan Taylor want it.
19:22
I think as far as capturing a creative intention, a drawing is just like maybe not the end all be all, but it's like a piece to the puzzle that is necessary in order to really capture that.
19:35
Um cuz I think we're just inherently very visual creatures, too.
19:36
And so I just think me personally as well high school I love drawing and it's just I can get a lot more across there than try to communicate uh >> Jordan.
19:45
But what if you're like me and you can't draw? >> Oh man.
19:49
I mean if you can't draw, I mean that's there's definitely a ceiling.
19:52
I think there's still capabilities you can do purely with text, but still like even just simple annotation.
19:58
I'm not saying you got to be like Michelangelo out here, but even just like the idea of like Oh wait, it's like what did you mean exactly?
20:05
I was like no no, this guy over here was supposed to go over here and then do this thing.
20:08
Like I don't know if you guys remember this is kind of like spilling some beans of what we're doing, but like when you were in we were in middle school high school your teacher would do like the English teacher would put like three lines under your the first letter that meant like oh that's supposed to be capitalized.
20:21
Or they would do that like P with the double lines that's like oh I meant it's a new paragraph.
20:27
And you like she didn't have to tell you that but like that little hieroglyph was enough to kind of communicate a whole thing, right?
20:33
So I think there's maybe net new ways we can invent new visual ways to communicate, but um I don't know.
20:40
I just think it's it's very interesting. >> Yeah.
20:42
Uh speaking of visual communication, I mean we used to say this at Snapchat all the time that like our our uh our friend Jacob Andreou Alex uh who uh where is he now?
20:51
He was a VC and now >> He's the head of Clippy.
20:55
>> He's running that company. >> of Copilot. >> Yeah.
20:58
>> Yeah, so one of the things he once said when he was a young man at Snapchat, he said humans are IO constrained.
21:02
And I was like what the hell are you talking about?
21:06
And he's like, "Well, you have to translate all these ideas and feelings in your head into words, and that's texting.
21:12
And no wonder there's so many miscommunications and whatnot.
21:13
Thus, the idea of Snapchat where you send pictures and videos, it's just more natural to the human being."
21:21
But, you also think, "Well, the words give the AIs so much to work with in terms of structure that made LLMs work."
21:29
How How does that actually work with the AIs and like your doodle? >> Yeah.
21:35
>> Is it a similar mechanism or >> It's It's very similar. It's very similar.
21:38
Um but it's like it's a combination of the two.
21:41
So, there's like this idea uh I'm going to kind of try to simplify this.
21:45
So, it's like there's noise.
21:47
And then there's like a text description.
21:48
And then it kind of like basically is trying to like distill that noise and your input as like a way to kind of like generate something that's net new to some degree, but guided by the text.
21:59
You can almost think of it's like guardrails.
22:00
Like you're introducing more guardrails.
22:02
Like text is like, you know, you've probably heard of like context like a million times like in the last month, but that's and that's one way of setting context.
22:09
I think uh a sketch or an image is just like another way of giving context to the model to like reason through.
22:15
It's like similar to us, right?
22:17
It's like if we have the right context, like I don't know, there's something also about like memes. I love memes.
22:22
And I the reason I think they're so genius as well and I think there almost needs to be like an economic class around like um memeology or something like this.
22:30
But like >> Did you see the Nicholas Cage the Nicholas Cage interview where he explains memes?
22:37
>> This thing we call memes meme uh memification.
22:39
I coined the word memification. What is a meme really? I mean, what is that?
22:43
Because the memes were not unlike the dreams. >> Anyway, sorry. Continue.
22:47
>> He definitely He had an early like 2010s like meme run.
22:50
Like I don't know if you guys remember the those old formats where it's like the baby with the fist and like the old like We we evolved so far since then, but I think >> a visual language, right? >> Exactly. Exactly.
23:01
Like that if I send you Arthur's angry hand, that communicates almost just as much as if I were to like give you a huge paragraph of like how I felt about a situation.
23:12
>> As we also used to say in all of our Snapchat texts, a snap is worth a thousand words. >> Yes.
23:19
>> And then the advertisers go, "Ooh." >> Ooh.
23:23
Yeah, no, Snapchat was so ahead of its time.
23:25
Like I haven't used Snapchat in a long time, but yes, definitely super unique in its in its own right.
23:31
>> Therein lies the problem with the stock price, Jordan, what you just said. Uh sorry, that was bad. >> Yeah.
23:37
>> So, uh I didn't realize until we just been chatting, but I've actually been vis-comming uh with my daughter.
23:42
I recently finally got an iPad for her Access Live show a couple weeks ago, and I got an Apple Pencil Pro cuz I can expense it to myself, and we've been doodling in the Apple Notes app, and of course my 5-year-old discovered that there's actually an image gen built into the Notes app now.
24:00
And if you draw like a little plant, and you do this rainbow like pen in Apple Notes, circle the plant that you drew.
24:10
Let's Let's say it's a flower, and then you write flower into the text, and it generates you a flower.
24:14
Uh and that's kind of it, isn't it?
24:17
Um with that said, I do not really have much faith that Apple is actually using the doodle almost at all. >> Yeah. I love Apple Notes.
24:26
I always default back to Apple Notes in a lot of ways.
24:31
Like I was like a heavy Notion user, and like I just went back to Apple Notes. I don't know.
24:35
I I love Apple Notes, but that's that's essentially it.
24:39
Like the the experience you're kind of creating you're describing there, that's one aspect of it.
24:43
>> She absolutely loves it. >> Yeah.
24:46
>> Um I mean, have you had Yeah.
24:48
>> Apple Notes is also beautiful for just how dumb it is, and how simple it stays despite how much software is getting >> It proudly still can't search. >> Yeah. Oh my gosh.
24:57
Dude, the new photo I'm going a little bit off topic but the new photo gallery is terrible. Like is it just me?
25:04
Like I don't know how you guys feel about this but like I can't all right.
25:08
It's it's I can't I hate it.
25:08
I don't like I'm like where did this photo just go that I saved or took? Like I don't know. I don't know.
25:13
Maybe I'm just I'm entering with the kids called unk status now. So that's probably it.
25:18
>> So So Jordan, we've been talking about the inspiration for Viscom, a little bit about how it works. And I I get that.
25:25
I'm curious though, how is it being used?
25:28
What is being made with this?
25:28
Can you point us to concrete I'm setting you up here quote unquote concrete examples of things that that Viscom has made. >> Yes. Wait. Okay.
25:39
Can you guys give me like two I'm going to go I can grab something really It's like right outside the door. >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, go get it.
25:47
>> This is something Okay, I I really want to show this off. This is really cool.
25:50
Here's what I can show you.
25:52
>> He's got pretty good bookshelf game there.
25:55
He could fill in the middle but >> Okay.
25:59
So before I show you guys the objects so so the the flow I guess or kind of the space we focus on.
26:04
So going from paper to production, right?
26:06
That's that's kind of the the area of focus.
26:10
This is what industrial designers do, footwear, automotive, all these people they sketch, they render, create 3D models and then they either 3D print, mill, create prototypes and then mechanical engineering makes it real.
26:20
Um so where does this add the most worry Where does this Where can you unlock the most value here?
26:26
So footwear companies um let's say someone like a New Balance, right? or a Nike.
26:30
They they're using our tools to help visualize and physically understand maybe how their early concepts might look like much earlier in the process.
26:39
So you can think of it's like these guys up until this point they never had like a a debugger.
26:43
Like a programmer can like write something and be like oh yeah, that doesn't work. That doesn't work.
26:47
There's so the ability to fail faster here is kind of a new concept which is crazy.
26:53
Um, so so in the shoe world, right?
26:53
We we worked with these guys called So Zellerfeld, right?
26:56
I don't know if you guys They make the This is a shoe.
26:57
This is a 3D printed shoe, which is a crazy design of these like It's this idea of like two hands coming together to kind of like >> meets a Yeezy. >> Yeah. Dude, exactly.
27:09
Um, so these are super neat and this is like So Zellerfeld's out in Austin, Texas.
27:14
They have these custom 3D printers for shoes and exact And it's it's actually really soft and like, you know, you can actually like bend these and stuff.
27:20
It's almost like a croc material.
27:22
And then these ones are super cool, too.
27:24
So these are called the Catapills.
27:25
These are like these caterpillar 3D printed shoes.
27:27
So these started out as a drawing in Vizcom, and then actually became something you can hold.
27:33
And this is like in, you know, like the whole like make it real story, right?
27:36
It's like not only producing things that stay on the screen, but like stuff you can actually physically hold.
27:41
Um, so that's >> could totally be seen wearing those around Los Feliz on a weekend.
27:49
So, uh, I actually got the uh, Salehe Bembury Crocs. >> Of course you did.
27:54
>> And my wife said that they looked like like human flesh.
28:00
And they were also kind of like a pinkish color, and so I had to return them.
28:03
And I was up I was up clicky clicky clicky waiting for the drop, trying to secure the shoe.
28:10
>> She made you return them.
28:12
>> I mean I mean they did look they did look ridiculous.
28:15
>> This is very unsettling to hold, by the way.
28:17
Like it's quite literally hands on feet situation here. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
28:22
>> Yeah, it's it's really cool. So >> alien on a Yeezy.
28:25
>> Um, so so did someone just sketch that shoe, put it in Vizcom, and then AI made the 3D model that was then printed? Is that what happened? >> So they sketched it.
28:34
They use some models to visualize it first.
28:37
And then they kind of iterated.
28:40
So we've created a lot of very novel interfaces to kind of help you explore forms, color materials, um, height, width, things of that nature.
28:50
And then we're able to then take that and then generate a 3D model from this.
28:53
This is like a mesh that gets exported into like an STL file and then that gets put to the actual printer.
28:57
There's some processes in between like something called a slicer that kind of helps you set it up for the printer etc.
29:02
But yeah, a lot of these are straight-up generated 3D models that then got prepped for manufacturing and just print it.
29:11
>> And for people who don't understand the complexity of this like me, how long would that process have taken pre-Viscom?
29:16
Like would someone have to really draw every part of the shoe?
29:19
Like what has changed in the process?
29:25
>> The the rate at which you can fail.
29:25
So before one even understanding and knowing this is what you would have wanted to do, would have just taken much longer.
29:36
So before you you're spending Photoshop like time in Photoshop quite literally coloring and kind of visualizing like a a flat 2D line drawing.
29:44
Um and then you're going into like a Rhino, a Blender, Modo, like these 3D like Maya for example, to then try to understand that.
29:51
First of all, then you got to first Okay, first I'm going to sketch this from multiple views because you don't have multiple views at all.
29:59
You just have a side view maybe.
29:59
So now you got to Okay, I got to draw that out.
30:02
And then you got to build that manually and first interpret it first in 3D cuz there might be some loss in translation here.
30:07
So that's like another thing, right?
30:09
The the designer's intention and clarity of his thoughts now are able to stay way more intact versus like before all of this.
30:15
So you see the same thing happening in software, right?
30:19
Now the designers can kind of like push PRs.
30:20
You're like, oh, there's no more of this like pixel correction back and forth situation.
30:25
The same thing's happening in the physical world.
30:28
Like the designer is now able to kind of really carry his like torch, I would say, much further in the process of going to production versus before it was kind of like a multi-handoff process of like everything I just mentioned before required maybe seven different professions.
30:43
Um now it's like these are all starting to converge into like one thing.
30:47
Similar to this like this PM versus engineer versus designer conversation we see happening in software.
30:52
It's like that same thing is starting to happen in like physical product creation.
30:57
So >> And there's a And there's an argument to be made that yes, that's kind of taking jobs away.
31:02
You described a bunch of jobs that are getting kind of pulled into one.
31:05
But at the same time, I think what you're building shows how AI can help humans be more human, do things more efficiently.
31:14
It's an interesting counter narrative to a lot of the doom and gloom out there about AI just wholesale replacing people.
31:21
And maybe you didn't have a a strong POV on this when you started cuz you started like pre-all this, you know, narrative that we were talking about earlier.
31:27
But I'd be curious to hear how you're hearing I'd be curious to hear the reception you're getting from people in the design world to this.
31:36
And I know there's a lot of fear about AI in every creative field, and I'm sure there is in this design in the design world that you're in as well.
31:44
>> Yeah, I I I I I hesitated to say the words like taking away.
31:47
Like I almost feel like it's evolving jobs, right?
31:52
Like Like a videographer existed 50 years ago, but they look very If you showed him a videographer today, he'd be like, "Wait, is that even my We What do you mean that's my job?
31:59
That's That's That looks very different from what I'm doing today."
32:02
Um so I I think just the the makeup of a lot of these jobs are just going to change fundamentally, right?
32:08
Like this exact situation here would have been a a news broadcaster 20 or 50 years ago.
32:11
Now we're It's like no doubt, we're now podcasting.
32:15
It's like the same thing, just maybe a slightly different title.
32:19
Now we have four deployed engineers, but I think that was maybe like consulting back in the day, possibly.
32:23
Um so I I I I really do think it's an evolution.
32:26
And so to to kind of go back to your question, so I think from the beginning we were always in this camp of authorship.
32:35
Like how do we instill authorship?
32:38
And you kind of lose the sense of authorship when you when you lean too much on these models doing things for you.
32:44
And you kind of feel this with Claude and like LLM's a little bit where you're like yes, it can do these long-running agentic tasks, but I'm like, ah, like I feel like I needed to like intro like I don't know, like I feel like I lost my sense of authorship slightly.
32:55
It and I don't know if that's like a knightly human I'm still trying to figure this out. I don't have the answer.
33:00
But I don't know if it's us trying to seek like a sense of purpose still or if authorship is something that's just something we we truly just need as people.
33:09
But that's something we've stuck to from the the very beginning.
33:11
I did not know at the start though that the kind of public zeitgeist would evolve into what it is today and have such a negative I saw some like Google exec dude giving like a uh college talk thing and like he's like, "Guys, like graduate and use AI."
33:27
And they're all just like, "tomato, tomato." >> This is Eric Schmidt. >> Some Google exec guy. >> Eric Schmidt. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Eric Schmidt. And I was like, "Dude."
33:35
I was like, "Oh, man, this is bad."
33:36
Like I doesn't he doesn't know. He doesn't know. Yeah.
33:42
>> Well, so what do you think changes in modern shoe design as a result of tools like this?
33:47
Am I going to be downloading uh models and 3D printing my own shoes in a few years or do things get more experimental?
33:53
Do more people become designers who may not have been? >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
33:57
So the the last two where, you know, I don't think everyone will, you know, we had a we had a moment we all had laser jet printers in our house.
34:05
I don't think I have one still cuz I like printing stuff and collages, but I feel like that's not as crazy as it once was.
34:11
But so I don't think that will happen, but I do think it's going to push the envelope of what is actually possible.
34:17
It's like I like these kind of ideas I'll just showing you guys.
34:19
It's like it's like, "Whoa, like okay, like this is almost a a reflection of the tool just as much as it is the person themselves."
34:26
Like the the the reason cars in like the '70s and '80s looked so boxy it because no one couldn't think of curved cars.
34:33
It was It was more so a constraint driven by the tools.
34:35
But the moment Alias came out that allowed for curvature in 3D uh to be a lot more accessible, then we started getting these more like jelly bean like early 2000s PT Cruiser kind of like looking cars and stuff.
34:48
And it like we didn't just all of a sudden get more creative.
34:51
It was like, oh, the tools enabled that.
34:53
Um so I think with generative AI, it's like, man, we're going to see some really funky products potentially.
34:57
Like the next IKEA catalog in like 2030 is going to look very fascinating, I believe.
35:03
>> Alex, did you know that uh the car I drove around in college was a silver PT Cruiser with flames on the side?
35:08
Is that on brand or is that an aberration?
35:13
>> You said flames on the side?
35:15
>> Yeah, they were uh flame magnet decals that my grandma got me and I just like I just like like tore around Ann Arbor, Michigan slipping and sliding all over the ice in my uh front-wheel drive PT Cruiser, yeah. >> The Hamburglar. >> Yeah.
35:32
>> So Jordan, tell us tell us the story of the team member who built a concrete keyboard uh from scratch.
35:39
>> The concrete keyboard, man, I wish I could go grab that.
35:40
It's upstairs, but uh yeah, so Amal Lucas on our team.
35:42
So it was kind of a collab between me and him.
35:45
I have like a little doodle and I did a quick VisCom render.
35:47
I was like, yo, like, we have this concrete keyboard, that'd be so funny.
35:50
And he's like, wait, like, wait, I think we can actually do that.
35:55
Like I actually have cement that I could pour and like try to do this.
35:56
And I was like, oh, wow, okay, cool.
35:58
So he took it all the way.
36:00
He He generated a 3D mold for it um and then we we we sliced it in half, poured some cement in there, and then built like a functioning keyboard.
36:09
It was It was kind of wild to see.
36:09
And like that's an example of there where it's like I would have never thought of or even wanted to put the effort into visualizing that initial cement keyboard to want to then be like, okay, let's make this real now.
36:21
Like so getting to that conviction much quicker.
36:23
But yeah, that was a wild situation.
36:26
And then holding it in your hands is like it's really satisfying to use.
36:30
I actually use it like pretty much every day at my desk.
36:32
Um it's like a it's really chunky, but it's cool. I love it.
36:37
>> And people say mechanical keyboard bros are annoying.
36:39
This is a whole new level.
36:42
But I mean this is beautiful though.
36:42
I mean it's just like, you know, having a kid.
36:46
I mean it's one thing if your kid is going to vibe code in app, but it's another if they're going to like draw something and then make it somehow, whether it's with a 3D printer or otherwise.
36:56
I mean, I know some dads who play with 3D printer stuff all the time and that that that seems like a net good for humanity in a very obvious way.
37:03
You know what I'm saying? >> Yeah.
37:07
>> Um and yeah, I mean how does it feel to be working in the hardware world versus so much of tech that's making like digital stuff, you know? >> Yeah. Uh it's interesting.
37:14
We're we're definitely at the intersection.
37:16
Like a lot of the stuff we do is still very software as far as what we're providing, but to then see it manifested physically is like really cool.
37:24
Like I just think in general like things that are super high fidelity and digital and stay digital on our screens, the the the signal of effort is no longer there.
37:36
Like it's like you see something super cool on the internet now and you're like, "Okay, like that's cool."
37:40
Like it doesn't have that same like like 10 years ago you see like a really nice rendering, you're like, "Whoa, like first of all, how did he do that?"
37:48
>> knows their Yeah, spent nights on this. >> Exactly.
37:51
So I think the next signal is like, "Okay, well then how real did he make that thing?"
37:56
That's like, "Okay, like the physical becomes the new signal of effort in my opinion."
38:00
So just kind of really leaning in in that and like being a part of it is super cool.
38:06
Um and seeing like even these like shoes, right?
38:08
It's like "Okay, well, like this is like there's something here."
38:12
We're still in the early innings of this in my opinion, um but it's it's cool to be a part of the the the early signs of it being uh real.
38:21
>> Yeah, I'm curious where you see this going when you you know, you've raised a decent amount of money and the business is growing.
38:27
You said you've got hundreds of thousands of designers on the platform.
38:31
Are you coming for all of these, you know, legacy creative tools, the Adobe stuff, maybe even something like Figma?
38:39
Like where do you see this ending up with what you're building with Fathoms of Fun?
38:45
>> Yeah, I think it's it's really focusing on that that paper to production pipeline.
38:48
So, understanding to the best of our abilities how physical products are made in the real world.
38:55
And then just keep going down that value chain.
38:57
Now, I always jokingly say internally like, "Hey guys, if there's like Build-A-Bear for bears, like we can be the like build an anything store."
39:04
Like I want to be able to like go somewhere and just build like almost like what's that thing from Star Trek?
39:09
The um uh >> That like fabricator thing.
39:14
>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
39:14
Like >> Captain Picard says, "Earl Grey, hot." >> Yes, exactly.
39:18
Like if we can do like I forgot what this is.
39:21
Someone will someone will comment it, but like like if we can do that, like that experience of like can I really hold my ideas?
39:26
Like now, what does that look like as far as form factor?
39:31
Do we get into the world of hardware?
39:32
Like do we have to start inventing that new ways to like build things because of what's happening upstream?
39:38
I don't know, but I do see us being the ones to unlock the kind of like instantaneous like you know, I upload a drawing and next thing you know, it's in the mail at the end of the day or something like that, right?
39:50
Like some kind of like physical thing.
39:53
>> Do you think that process gets to a point where someone like me who doesn't really understand this workflow at all, especially how it used to be, could create a physical product in the same way that I can now code with Cloud Co-worker Code X without knowing that I'm coding?
40:10
Do you think that eventually I'll be able to make something physical with this? >> Yes, totally.
40:15
Like and I I kind of I try to stay away from the word easy and more so on accessible because easy to me almost like degrades the the craft of or like it like it makes something seem like it's less valuable.
40:30
Like it's it'll be easier yes to do these things.
40:33
Now will you be able to make something as good as like a designer from like Muji or like T engineering?
40:39
Maybe not but like you will be at least able to play the game that they're playing to some capacity which is kind of what these like LLMs have done for like like like widespread of folks who >> I do pretend I am as good as Fukasawa and the Muji products he's made but I cannot yet prove it.
40:59
Cuz I can't make stuff yet.
41:02
>> Yes and that that's where the whole like taste conversation comes up and which I'm like and I I still kind of like try to understand like what that means sometimes but like yeah it's that's stuff where like your judgement and that kind of stuff comes in which is which is really hard which is really hard.
41:18
>> I am a believer in that.
41:18
I mean you know I am a writer by trade but as you saw when we were together Jordan it's like I I have I have the heart of a product designer.
41:29
And I think of words as part of the product design of like helping people experience the entirety of a product you know and a lot of times those words can in turn inspire the product in mind and people have all sorts of experimental ideas in their mind and I feel like historically it's just been gatekept by whoever could could make that stuff.
41:54
>> Like like words are are your like brush or or medium to do something of sorts.
41:59
Like I think you're starting to see this a little bit more where physical outputs of sorts are becoming like the medium of like whether it's marketing like you'll see someone kind of like do like I saw someone do a cassette tape release for an album which is fascinating.
42:11
I like, oh, wow, that's interesting.
42:12
Or Um what's the one space movie that came out recently?
42:15
You could scan a QR code, download a 3D file, it's part of the promo, and then uh 3D print that. >> Mary, probably.
42:23
>> Yeah, yeah, Project Hail Mary.
42:23
They had like a little like >> Yeah, yeah, I heard that movie I haven't seen it yet. I heard it's great.
42:27
Um but there's a lot of good movies coming out recently.
42:31
But anyway, it's like yeah, it's stuff like that as far as like using physical things as like another form of expression, I think it's going to become a lot more accessible, yeah.
42:40
>> So I think one of the things that informs your taste and judgement, um we don't talk to very many founders from Detroit, uh where I'm also from.
42:46
How How do you feel like your your background um has informed how you how you build differently? >> Oh man.
42:55
>> And you are And you are in the Valley, so >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
42:58
>> Yeah, the Midwest, man.
42:58
Oh gosh, I like I didn't realize garage bands was like a Midwest thing.
43:03
Like someone told me that I heard I saw a tweet or something.
43:06
Someone's like, oh, they're trying to cosplay or something.
43:08
>> We don't We don't even have garages here.
43:10
>> I'm like, you guys don't even have garages.
43:11
Um same with basements and stuff, right?
43:13
Um but I think like being from Michigan, one, you get all seasons, but the most prominent one is winter.
43:19
And when it's wintertime, like you do not really want to like go anywhere.
43:24
Like I don't know, you like even the idea of going to warm up your car is like this like oh my gosh.
43:29
So you inherently just spend a lot of time indoors.
43:32
So that just naturally caused me to like play on computers, like woodshop stuff with my dad in the garage, like So I think just being in that environment kind of ushered those kind of things.
43:45
And then also, I don't know, there's something about the Midwest where the like career thing being your personality, kind of like forced not that not being a thing, almost like forces you to like just try a bunch of stuff.
43:58
Like I was into like Magic the Gathering.
44:00
I was like I had tried playing guitar.
44:03
I just like I don't know, I tried like a bunch of random stuff.
44:05
Um and I think maybe my main >> were we not hanging out?
44:07
I was playing Magic and going to the Detroit Auto Show every year.
44:11
I'm sure we brushed shoulders at that event.
44:15
>> Yes, we probably crossed paths at some point.
44:17
>> seminal for me seeing all the concept cars back then. >> Oh, yeah.
44:21
>> Like that was the future. >> That was the future.
44:23
Like seeing the Detroit it's sad what they've done with it now, but back then like the auto show like pre-internet getting really like algorithmic social media stuff.
44:31
It was like woah, like I'm here.
44:33
And like former magazines, Nintendo Power.
44:36
Like I was really into this stuff. So like I don't know.
44:41
Maybe it's just like the time period I was in the Midwest.
44:42
I'd be curious what someone 10 years younger than me thinks.
44:45
But all of these things kind of like is what I don't know.
44:51
Played a part into how I've developed my mindset.
44:54
>> Jordan, considering that you worked with Ellis at one point, I like to ask every guest who's done that and we could maybe end it here.
45:04
Was Ellis actually helpful to you?
45:04
What did he come up with?
45:07
What were his shower thoughts?
45:07
How did they translate into meaningful venture dollars that you raised?
45:14
>> Yeah, I was I was actually so I think Chris was the one that originally brought this up and I was I was relatively skeptical.
45:19
I was like, "What do you mean like words? I got words in my head. Like I can do this.
45:21
What are you talking about Chris?"
45:22
I was like, "Chris, bro, we have GPT now. It's like 3. something."
45:26
I was like I was like, "Chris, we can just like Like Chris, we can we can figure this out."
45:31
He's like, "No, Jordan, like trust me.
45:32
Like I know you care about stories.
45:33
Like this is something like I was like, "Okay, great."
45:35
So yeah, it was it was awesome.
45:37
Like the whole like make it real statement.
45:39
Like what you see on this hot here, that that really stemmed from that exercise, right?
45:43
Ellis like I don't know if you remember that.
45:44
Like we we went through a many different iterations and just kind of like really getting to the core ethos timeless nature of like what it is we're trying to do.
45:54
Like in a world where the mission is now the moat, right?
45:58
Like I don't think it's no longer like technology is going to solve that. >> mission is the moat.
46:02
>> That's going to go on Ellis's website.
46:04
You got to be careful, Jordan.
46:06
>> No, but like that's what we say this I say this a lot internally cuz I'm like, guys, like the moat is not what we're building per se, it's the reason why we're building it is more so the important aspect of it.
46:14
So, Ellis really helped at least us to establish that direction.
46:18
And it's pretty timeless.
46:21
Like even the make it real video we released almost 2 years ago now.
46:24
You watch it today, you're like, oh yeah, yeah, we're still trying to do that.
46:26
Like that is still holding up today.
46:28
So, yeah, that's that's that was a fun exercise and yeah, cool process.
46:35
>> Ellis like smoking a big blunt with no shoes on and he's sitting cross-legged with you, you know, in the park in SF and he's just like, "Make it real."
46:48
>> Yes, but on a Zoom call. >> That's less exciting.
46:51
>> I love how like romantically you think about it, Alex.
46:53
Like I'm literally sitting right right at this very spot in a cave with no natural light.
47:02
Uh just like in the Just like in the Detroit winter. I know, I know.
47:07
Um all right, last but not least, predictions for industrial design for tech.
47:13
I know we talked about Gentle Monster before uh before you came on.
47:17
We've got the new Loom lamps that are kind of stainless steel robots that do your laundry.
47:22
What do you think is uh next for for for product design and tech? >> Oh, man. I don't know.
47:28
>> have the best glasses that people actually want to wear?
47:29
I know uh it was just reported this week Apple's working on it as well. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:35
I think OpenAI's really going to surprise people with their dime thing.
47:40
Like I just think that's really going to shock folks.
47:43
Um I I I haven't tried it yet, but I've heard many great things.
47:48
I I just think that there's something there potentially, but I love the Sunday robot, actually. I love that thing a lot.
47:57
>> Shout out former guest, Tony. Another Alys client. >> Oh, no way, really? Oh, wow. Okay, that's awesome.
48:02
I I love there's something about just like the personable aspect of it, so but yeah, I don't know.
48:10
>> has a hat, which makes all the difference, just like us.
48:14
>> Genuinely, I there's something about the similarity.
48:17
Like, now, do you robots need eyes? I don't know.
48:19
Like, human, do we really want to like see that?
48:21
But, um yeah, I don't know.
48:23
I think the open AI hardware devices really going to like blow people's minds, potentially.
48:26
Like, I wouldn't underestimate that.
48:29
>> Ooh, what do you expect it to do? >> Yeah.
48:32
>> Yeah, what do you know? >> Uh So >> something.
48:36
You wouldn't be saying that if you didn't know something.
48:38
>> No, I just think it's going to be something very surprising.
48:41
Like, like, whoa, like, I didn't maybe think of things could be that way.
48:45
Or like, similarly, like when GPT dropped, you're like, oh, whoa, I didn't even expect to even be talking to my computer or like, I didn't expect this to be a way to interface with this stuff. Star Trek.
48:56
>> Jordan, here's here's what I think.
48:56
This is a semi-informed take, and I want to get your reaction.
49:00
I'm expecting ambient, contextually aware, lots of sensors, like a puck or, uh you know, almost like a Walkman that you could wear, put in your pocket it when you need it, set it on your desk, set it on a table between you and someone else.
49:16
But, it has like a like a like a personality. It's it's proactive.
49:21
Like, it'll interrupt you mid-conversation and say, "Oh, actually, no, your books, you can't do that." Or something like that.
49:27
It's like almost this this other being.
49:28
I think they may tweak that.
49:31
I don't know if maybe, you know, there's probably contention internally about how much of a being to make it.
49:35
But, uh that's my bet is that it goes in that direction, which would be, like you said, it'd be pretty pretty unique and pretty new. Um react to that. >> Uh maybe.
49:46
I mean, that sounds really cool. Haha.
49:48
I I you know, one thing I like to relate these two sometimes is like imaginary friends.
49:52
Like when you're a kid, you have your imaginary friend and like it feels so real and like he he doesn't like he only reacts when you react.
50:01
Like it's not maybe as pro- active maybe I don't know. I don't know. I I honestly don't know.
50:04
I can go down this rabbit hole forever, but I I do think there's something there where people I love the this thing called the the little guy or something.
50:11
Like the little It's like a star. >> Another former guest. >> Oh, really? No way. No way. >> No way. Okay, no way. No way.
50:18
>> God, you you Jordan, do you really not know that else did that, too? That Daniel did that.
50:22
>> not I swear to God on my life.
50:23
>> Well, but Daniel said that I didn't do any of it on the show. So >> Oh, that's true. Yeah.
50:27
>> There's something about this like Sunday little guy.
50:30
Uh like there's just some I don't know like I was talking to Chris about this the other day.
50:34
It's like and somebody posted this really funny thing.
50:36
I'm sorry I'm going to load over time, but like teen engi- someone was like teen engineering taste slop or like aesthetic slop.
50:41
And I was like oh, that's I get what you're trying to say.
50:45
Like they're almost like a victim of their own success.
50:46
Like them being so good and like people being able to be like ha, my favorite product is iPhone and teen engineering like it almost like puts it's like it's like yes, we know that.
50:57
Like we already know we could we all we can all agree that that's good.
51:00
So So yeah, I don't I don't know how to explain this kind of like thread between like Sunday little guy like that world, but I don't know.
51:07
There's something novel about it still to me.
51:08
Um sorry, that was kind of like a a word salad. >> That's how good.
51:12
What's important to me Alex Alex now has proof that I I do have taste and I am the taste maker that I that I aspire to be. >> Make it real. >> Yeah. Well, thank you Jordan.
51:22
We will let you get back to the workshop. >> Yes.
51:27
Yeah, thanks for coming on.
51:29
No, thanks for having me and I love what you guys are doing and this is great. So >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you.
51:34
>> And that's it for this week's episode.
51:35
Stay tuned after the break for Alex and my reactions.
51:41
You know, we need more people in the tech industry like Jordan who think about AI as not something that's replacing people but empowering them.
51:49
And I think if more people building this talk to like Jordan, I think you wouldn't have uh politicians railing against data centers and Bernie Sanders pitching a sovereign wealth fund for AI companies like he did in the New York Times the other day.
52:02
I think this rhetoric about AI is really a result of the way that leaders, especially at the big labs, have been talking about it.
52:11
And then you've got people like Jordan who are actually building tools that hundreds of thousands of creators are using and sees it, I think correctly, as an empowerment thing and also just a natural evolution of how these jobs change with new technology.
52:28
>> I mean, it sounds so silly, but like to be solving a real problem.
52:33
Which is that you have to draw manually every single side of the shoe.
52:37
Uh and how much longer it takes to see if things are working or not.
52:39
You know, that's a real problem.
52:40
I mean, that's why they we didn't get super into it, but that's why like you have companies like New Balance, Ford, and Canon.
52:46
I mean, I assume it's a lot harder to get your tool into Ford than into a new tech startup that is always in the market for trying new tools, right?
52:57
>> sounds like he's winning on product.
52:57
I mean, he said it's bottoms up and you know, the designers are bringing it into their workflow and into their companies.
53:04
And that's, you know, that's how Slack grew back in the day. That's how Figma grew.
53:07
That's how all these great kind of generational SaaS, you know, creative platforms, collaboration platforms grow initially.
53:15
So, it seems like he's approaching it right.
53:17
And yeah, to go from, you know, kid in Detroit, works at Honda, goes to Nvidia, we didn't say this in the interview, but gets shouted out by Jensen during a GTC keynote a few years ago, and now doing his own thing. It's it's cool. It's very cool to see.
53:32
>> I'm also hopeful that we will have more characterful products in the world as a result.
53:38
I think at the end of the day these companies still want to make something that is mass market appealing, but you have to hope that if you could present your idea better, that it has a higher chance of getting through executives and other barriers internally.
53:52
And I mean, you know, we're we're in a time with a lot of visual consolidation, I think, especially in tech.
53:58
I mean, former guest of the show, Carl Pei, you know, his whole mission is to make tech fun again.
54:02
And I'm wearing the Nothing headphones now, even though they don't connect as well as Apple AirPods.
54:08
And they aren't as seamless, and they don't have quite the same Apple TV spatial audio experiences, but I'm wearing them cuz they they rule, you know?
54:17
>> Well, it's cuz you want to look cool in Tokyo Town in downtown LA.
54:18
That's I mean, Tokyo Town. Yes, exactly.
54:23
>> Um and so I do think there is a desire for a lot of this stuff.
54:26
And as Jordan alluded, the Teenage Engineering design that tech is kind of the alt tech hipsters have been following for the last 10 years maybe a little bit a little bit played out.
54:37
We have to see what's next, but >> Yeah.
54:40
>> You're already seeing like a lot of interesting innovation, whether it's in shoes or glasses or some of the new cars, you know, as much as you might hate something like the Ferrari Luce or even the Cybertruck, they're at least putting things into the zeitgeist that are so different that maybe they give someone the freedom to try something new and experiment. >> Yeah.
54:59
>> I also just want to acknowledge how we're thinking about the show.
55:01
You know, we're about what? Uh September.
55:06
We're about nine months in. Time is a blur. 30-ish episodes.
55:10
And we've experimented a lot with the kind of guests we have on, the format, how much we do news, whether we talk at the front, whether we talk at the back.
55:18
And I think what we're doing this episode and what I think we've decided we're going to do more of is really explore these more earlier stage interesting companies and founders that you know, I think it's going to be a mix of us putting you on to things that we think are cool and unique.
55:36
And then also maybe some, you know, names in the early stage world that are a little more known to start.
55:43
But I think we're we're going to make it mix it up and make it interesting.
55:47
And yeah, I feel I feel good.
55:50
I feel good about the direction we're going.
55:52
I think I think we bring a good balance to these conversations where we're not going to glaze the guest too much, but you know, we're also very genuinely interested in how these interesting startups are getting built.
56:06
>> How are you thinking about it as opposed to your newsletter?
56:08
I mean, I feel like it's been a little bit blurry who's going to be interviewed where.
56:12
I'm sure that weighed on you a little bit.
56:17
>> Well, the newsletter is such a fast-paced thing.
56:18
It's very on the news and very quick and a little more business-focused, right?
56:24
I mean, I I'm very interested in the stuff we're talking about the show, but I on the show, but I also have a lot of interest in kind of how AI is impacting the financials of these companies, the economy, the palace intrigue of the executives, where they're going, all of that.
56:39
And you're definitely going to be getting that in Sources.
56:40
And then, you know, sometimes people can only talk for 20, 30 minutes.
56:45
And I think this show is a good example of a format where, you know, you really get to know someone more. It's a hang.
56:54
And I think a newsletter isn't a hang.
56:56
And that's that's something that that I'm more cognizant of lately.
56:58
I think people want They're looking to newsletters for something to get out of it.
57:05
And not that you don't do that with podcast, but I think there's this hanging out aspects of a good podcast that we're trying to achieve here and it just it doesn't lend itself to the fast-paced quicker world of the newsletter.
57:18
>> Please send us feedback if you like the new format or hate it or have ideas for how to improve the show. You could find us. Where can you find us?
57:28
You can feel free to email me Ellis@meaning. company.
57:33
If you made it this far, you deserve to know my email.
57:35
Yeah, I've never given my email on here ever either.
57:38
How would you like to be found?
57:40
>> I haven't given my email on here ever either. I'm Alex@sources. news.
57:43
I'm a little scared to say that aloud.
57:45
I've got an alias on my website that I filter a bit.
57:46
You know, the real heads who are listening at this point, they can actually email me.
57:52
>> Yeah, you don't want to that's the beauty of creating a new email address is that you're not yet in the PR wankster email database.
58:03
Which you will never ever get out of.
58:07
>> Yeah, and you know what?
58:07
Just saying that means that an agent has likely crawled this transcript and I it now is in the PR database. So.
58:15
And that's it for this week's show.
58:17
Thank you to Jordan for coming on.
58:19
>> Yes, if you like this show, don't forget to like and subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. >> We are access.
58:24
show online and you can find us in video via accesspod on YouTube.
58:30
>> And if you really like this episode, we'd love a five-star review, a thumbs up, and if you really feel like it, share it with a friend.
58:38
>> You can find me @jhamilton on Twitter and at meaning.
58:40
company for your storytelling needs.
58:43
>> You can find my newsletter at sources. news.
58:46
>> Access is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and the show is produced by Hook Creators. >> See you next time.