[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] hey everybody this is Sam one of the producers of conversations with Tyler today we're releasing two bonus episodes to go along with episode 193 featuring Steven Jennings these two episodes show fascinating elements of the daily life
the culture and the politics of Nairobi and Kenya as a whole in this episode part one you'll hear from Harriet Mory a young woman working in Tatu City a 5,000 acre mixus development just north of Nairobi after this episode make sure to
check out part two to hear from the perspective of an elder katai gji who also works in Tatu City for a contrasting perspective of the rapidly developing country of Kenya now on to the show conversations with Tyler is produced by the mercus center at George
Mason University Bridging the Gap between academic ideas and real world problems learn more at marcus.org for a full transcript of every conversation enhanced with helpful links visit conversations withth tyler.com hello everyone and welcome back to
conversations with Tyler I am sitting here right outside of Nairobi Kenya in Tatu City and I will be speaking with Harriet morti she's a 22-year-old Hostess and waitress she works at a restaurant roast by carnivore located in Tatu City she's worked there for a year
and a half and she has strong interests in the hospitality sector she studied Supply Chain management at The kiambu Institute of Science and Technology in kiambu County she loves reading books watching movies and also traveling she comes from kirinyaga
County her Village is called Kumi it's near Mount Kenya I am told the area has spectacular views especially in the morning it can be cold but it's ideal for cash crops such as coffee and te she is a Kiku speaking the Bantu language
and that is one of 42 tribes in Kenya harot welcome thank you so much what for you makes Nairobi such an interesting City why is it the place you chose to live and Nairobi just has so much to offer in terms of opportunities career-wise also it's a very nice place
to be in Nairobi and the part of Nairobi you live in why did you choose that part of the city at this I chose because one it was close to the school where I was and now it's close to the place where I walk so it's convenient for me to move around
and languages you speak BTU right that was your family language yes it is English obviously and you speak kiswahili sure any other languages not for now no what else would you like to know maybe a bit of Italian Italian yes have you ever been to Italy no but I do
have a friend who just moved in there like last year if you dream of going to Italy what do you think you will see or do I would say it's the views for me and I also know it has a variety of job opportunities around that place also the
pay can be quite good more than it is here do you eat Italian food in Nairobi ever not really it's very good see if you can get some I like pasta very much we do have pasta though and the artworks in Italy they're they're very beautiful very interesting to see
sure you say you you like to read books what are some of your favorite books or kinds of books I would say fantasy history Adventure uh yeah what would be something you would read in fantasy let's see Den K will be my writer to go all the way yeah his books
actually he covers almost every range that I actually mentioned yes and for history what do you like to read about about Kenya or about Italy other countries history is quite interesting cuz actually to specialize in Kenya we have different tribes and they all have
different histories which can be actually fascinating something that you didn't grow up with or did experience on your way growing up how do you think about what makes KIU tribe different or special I would say it's special cuz
kikoyu in general is a BTO language but it's divided in different mode of languages cuz we can actually speaku but different versions of it maybe from the internet Nations to the way you communicate yeah to different way to different words to mean the same thing
but say the culture or the personalities are they different for Kiku not really not really same as other people in Kenya yes what are you most proud about when it comes to Nairobi I'm proud about the growth I have seen Nairobi
grow since Al enough how old were you when you left your village I would say I was 10 so that was 12 years ago that's a long time yeah and what made you decide to leave uh one the reason why I left my place was I was offered a sponsorship in a school around
kangela yeah so I left for school and given that you have to choose high schools around your area I choose around Nairobi and that is how I found my way in Nairobi and that's because you're ambitious and smart yeah and did your parents come with you or you came here
at age 10 alone no I my parents were left back in kirinyaga but I used to live with my aunt and uncle and they took care of you yes they did and how many brothers and sisters do you have I only have one brother we two and he's still back in the village
or he came here or no he's still back in the village and what does he do he's still in school he's 13 years old 13 so a younger brother yes when you see families in Nairobi a lot they only have two children you're part of a family of two children do you
think that's the future of Kenya yeah cuz the economy is quite hard as it is and having more children is the one that is leading to all this Street children a lot of people in not good businesses like theft and stuff and if you think of your future you think you
want two children or something different or maybe no children I'm okay with two two yeah yeah yeah I understand what do you watch on YouTube I do watch podcasts yeah podcasts Story Time which podcasts these guys can podcast or American I know these huge guys in
America like Joe Rogan and Tim Ferris so yeah like those ones but I can't recall the names but what do you find interesting about it like what do you listen for or what topics the evolving technology that is coming along you could say the AI you can see the
people who are privileged on like they have money they help a lot of people they just create a random way of reaching out to people who actually need their help so you're interested in Tech what social media do you use social media we do have a Tik Tok
yes we do have Instagram we do have a YouTube WhatsApp as well but which do you like what's your favorite Tik Tok all the way because it's more fun yeah do you make Tik Tok videos I do I actually do and can you tell us how to get to them sure what's your site
address it's Hazel Hazel yeah Hazel Jones Hazel Jones yes on Tik Tok and what are your videos about mostly it's about how I spend my days and my work at roast yeah about how it go about my days and you do these in English not Bantu or
both both depends sometimes it's dancing yeah it makes it interesting when you have a little bit of everything so you'll dance and then you'll talk yes and your friends watch the videos many strangers watch they do they actually do when you listen to music what do you listen
to for me in music it's about the message conveyed in the music I'm more of an old soul the worst life kind of vibe yeah so you listen to rhythm and blues yes I do Beyonce of course he's your favorite or my alltime your alltime
favorite yes the lemonade album by her is one of my favorites oh that is an amazing one and there's a new one I forget the title but I think that's quite good it's a 1970 sound for a lot of it a lot taken from disco and earlier musics okay I'll be sure to check that
out and in Kenyon music what do you listen to I used to listen to a bit of Bongo you know Bongo of course yeah yes we do that um we also do that right now gon a bit it's the clubbing Vibe do you listen to Nigerian music yeah they are afrobats that's very popular now
also in America really absolutely a lot of big Nigerian stars now in the US on YouTube most of all ah that is interesting yeah yeah and you go out to clubs at night sometimes I do yes and that's to hear music or to meet people or how do you think about it just for
fun mostly it's more about having fun just letting lose a bit from the normal schedule and work and everything also it's a nice way to hang out with friends like you all can catch up and talk about what has been going on cuz we're all on
different paths right now could you tell us a little about the restaurant where you work sure there the restaurant is roast by Carnival right now I'm the waiter stroke Hostess but Hostess is my main thing I just help out a bit in service interacting with people cuz as a Hostess
in overall I manage and make sure that all the guests visiting the restaurant they are served quite right they have everything they need yeah and just checking up on them every once in a while so you have to oversee the other staff and make sure that
working well yeah what's the main mistake sometimes they make I wouldn't call it a mistake but when we are a bit overwhelmed you have like five six tables you're handling and they all want your attention so you can't be there all at once so somebody
has to step in to help out and that's you yeah what kind of food do they serve mostly it's about Meats we offer different types of meat Meats do you serve game like ostrich or just like beef chicken goat right now we doing the beef chicken goat but uh in our main
restaurant in carival they offer all that the world even the crocodiles is goat your favorite meat no I'll go with beef beef yeah yeah goat is more like traditional meat right yeah for ritual ceremony mhm older people prefer goat yeah I think they do because
depending on the turnup I see at work on a daily basis many people prefer to go for the goats that age do you like Indian food I hate the spicy Parts too spicy and maybe you don't like it so much yeah you like ugali of course I do
that's the main like your staple food for breakfast or I wouldn't say that I will say I'm more into rice but I I do love ugali cuz where I'm from rice is like readily available cuz we're just around the Moa region and that is where you get the best rice the pishu rice
that's a little unusual for Kenya right there's more wheat here than rice overall true but the region where I come from there's more rice more rice that's great yeah have you ever had like jolif rice from Nigeria or Ghana no I it's a good
dish it's hard to make but I make it very well in Nigeria okay yeah and the job you have why did you take that job okay I took the job cuz one I'm am passionate about the hospitality industry I love that the way you go to a place that is not your own and you meet
different people and you get to get a treatment that will make you remember the place and want to go back there over and over again also in restaurants that is where you find people people mostly want to unwind about their days so the people can be quite talkative and it's
amazing you get to interact with different people from different places how ambitious are you h on a scale of 10 I would say an 8.5 so you want to own your own restaurant someday of course that would be a dream come true and what kind of
restaurant would it be I want to go for a high-end restaurants yeah and it would be Kenyon food yes or something else food from your village a lot of rice or what's your dream I will have a mixed match of everything more like giving the people what they want
cuz from where I'm at I can be able to see what it is that people love what they like I can Miz in that you think you're a good people person like very friendly Cooperative yeah I can say that about myself a good boss yes are you good at getting mad at
them and firing them if you need to fire them oh not the firing part that one I leave it to the big bosses but if it's your restaurant you are the big boss yeah I will say I love giving people chances before I am done completely
done why do you think the cost of living has become so much harder in Nairobi in the last few years the government what do they do wrong everything I just have a million questions I would like to ask them because the management controls everything the government governs
everything so they are the ones who are calling the shots and right now what they're doing they're pressing on people so much so you don't think they're running the country that well yeah and you think it's a question of voting for some of other party or you think deep
structural changes are needed both a little bit of both we could use both cuz right now we need a complete change around the government we need to switch things up a bit so we can run smoothly like we used to a while back if people try to start a small
business do you think it's very hard they need to get a lot of permits spend a lot of money get licenses or is it easy so if you went to start your restaurant how hard would that be it will be a bit hard I would say I actually try to start
selling clothes a while back sometime last year but one and it was a bit hectic one reaching out to people second before finding a spot and the permits as you said so you find the kjo people as they call them they are quite distracting for the people who are
trying to start up their businesses and you your clothing sales was it from a physical store or online a physical I used to do physical and also WhatsApp used to help me a lot by then reach out to my friends reach out to people from
school you talk a lot on WhatsApp yes I do yeah yeah so you're very extroverted uh yeah I can be extroverted and introvert cuz I'd rather be indoors all day than go out and have fun why would you rather be indoors all day what's your thought there I enjoy my
company and umies yeah and the movies it's the storyline for me when I start a movie and I love the storyline I just want to go with it till the very end what kind of movies do you like a little bit of everything it's the story line for me if it's drama if it's horror if
it's a thriller if it's fun to see but is it like Bollywood movie Nollywood movie Kenyon movie Us movie Hollywood Nollywood us all of those yes and do you have like a favorite movie of some kind right now what I've been following up on is
power power political power or you mean just people who are strong it's the story line for me cuz uh the power started when I was quite a bit young and I have seen the people who are acting grow till de and they're still doing it so I've SE them grow that
industry and the story line is quite captivating you mean electrical power no just political power yeah so you like movies about political power yes do you think power corrupts people oh it sure does cuz when you really want the power you have to go through extreme stuff and
the people who come out of that process they care too much about power maybe yeah you have a Mobile smartphone right yes I do how much time do you spend on it given that I work for like 10 hours in a day I would say spend like four 5 hours maximum and you think that's the
right amount too little too much uh it's too little sometimes cuz when I'm tired from work sometimes I don't even look at my phone I just want to get to bed and sleep but it makes you happy when you do it it does and what kind kind of phone
do you have I have a techno spark 8C and that's Android system or what yes it is and where where is it made China yeah yeah you see a big Chinese influence in naobi yeah I can say that how do you think that's going for me I don't think
I have much to say about it I'm just happy everybody is trying to find their way cuz when they come and they make things a bit cheaper for us that is way that is exactly what we need and they help create jobs right yes by investing have you ever been to
America no I haven't what's your main impression of it from what you see you can tell the truth I won't be offended I think it's a nice place but I will say the blending in or do I say fitting in before you actually do familiarize yourself with everything that goes on
around that could be quite a challenge do you think we're crazy sometimes when you all go out on the black people yeah do you think we don't respect our parents enough no I wouldn't say that cuz it's all about the upbringing yeah and it happens in every
place different countries yeah and the race problems in America what do you think they come from technology how so technology cuz your technology is more advanced it is way way more advanced than it is in other places and you think that increases racism in some ways not
really but the platforms they the fact that nobody knows who's talking to who it makes people have the courage to speak out what they want and not everything that they do speak out is good and then they become worse Maybe over time because they're saying too
much true including you know messaging services or online yeah do you think the world will fix that problem or what do you expect the world can fix it but it all starts with an individual cuz once you want to change it and you influence
the people you're hanging out with or the people you have around it goes like that and maybe with time we might see some changes are you an optimist about Kenya yes I am do you think you'll live here your whole life or you'll try to go to Italy or somewhere
else I wouldn't mind traveling but Kenya is the place I would like to be like for living Kenya is the place to be but I would like to visit other places you like the climate here everything about Kenya is amazing the people the food H especially the
food but not the Indian food not the Indian food and in the food have you seen that change in your lifetime for the food yes so you've been in Nairobi 12 years how is it changing it is changing quite a lot because with time the people are forgetting about the indigenous foods
that we used to get at home right now around Nairobi given that it's more of um residential place you don't find a lot a lot of places where people want to grow this stuff and the thought of getting them from The Villages and transporting them to where you are can
be quite hectic cuz some may spoil on the way their budget may be just not pocket friendly so yeah people are more reliable on the junk food part around Nairobi than it is around the village areas do people here think about the
British much this was once a British colony is that an important issue or you've all forgotten history taught us a lot about what happened in the past yeah but with time we have seen the changes and by now people have adjusted to the day-to-day
living do you think being a British colony was good for Kenya or bad for Kenya not so good it is an in between cuz we all had something to learn like the Christianity mode came along that time and yeah at least we go to Lear something from them but they treated
people here very badly yes yes they did do you go to church I do Christian yes which branch I'm a Catholic what makes Catholic appealing to you the unity there's no much diversity as it is in the Protestants cuz whatever is being taught in the American church is
whatever is being taught in The Village Church we have the same Bibles the same readings scriptures for every Sunday it's programmed that so long as you're in the Catholic you're getting the same information do you think fewer canyons are going to church than
before yes I will say that and that concerns you or you think it's okay it does concern me cuz I'm also affected cuz I work six days in a week and Sunday is one of the busiest days you can never never get enough Day on Sunday so personally for me I would
say it has affected kenyons a lot workwise yeah if you marry someone you want your husband to be religious Catholic or it doesn't matter so much it doesn't matter so much just if he's a good person yeah there's this cult in the south of
Kenya Paul McKenzie I read about this in the newspapers how do you understand that what's your sense of what happened there uh that's a tricky and interesting topic at the same time but I really don't get what teaching it is that these people are getting to the extent that
they can go and undergo the fasting session and the leader is not undergoing the same thing you know that is something that is controversial so it is weird I'm not in support of it yeah we've had things like that happen in America of course what do you think
of women's rights in Kenya are they strong enough yes they are how could women be treated better nothing I will say that is not being done right now you think it's really pretty good yeah it is cuz in terms of leadership we're given equal
rights in terms of speaking our minds out it's allowed I think it's quite okay you just need to work your way up to the top and then for women you think have the same chances as men yes they do yes are you worried about any of Kenya's neighbors so there Somalia Ethiopia a
lot of fighting does this concern you or it feels very distant I wouldn't say it's distant because every Kenyan is a human and I believe so long as no one is trying to attack the other one and we're all trying to live in peace everything is
going to work out quite fine cuz it's all about the peace and the humanity and the friendship between the countries that's a very Catholic view right yeah it is and Kenya takes in a lot of refugees how how do you think that is going I'm not sure how that is going to
be going in the next few weeks or months cuz with a GMO cut outs I don't know how that is going to work out how's it work working out with Uganda as a neighbor I don't know how they handle it I haven't read much about it but if they're doing okay I think
that's good but do you worry that Kenya is better run than most or all of its neighbors and that you will receive a lot of problems through your borders no you just think Kenya will be safe it's strong enough no but I wouldn't say the management in Kenya is quite as good
good as our neighbors around I would say we're all working our way yeah to try to improve lives around what would you do to improve the schools here the schools curriculum what would you change I will take it back to the 844 system and what is that
system right now what they're doing it's called the CBC they have a variety of things they're teaching in schools some that were not even teachable before they're even teaching PE in schools nowadays and that's good you think or no it is okay
but right now what people need is to go on with what they used to do you mean stricter more math more reading and writing yeah just to make sure everyone can read and write very well yes I will say that how good do you think your school
was okay I have been in different schools in primary and secondary I was in one but schools were how do I say it it all depends with the schools cuz we have the public sector and the private sectors and the two can never match cannot match or even come close which is
better it is not better but it is okay but of though the private the public which of those two kinds of school gives you the better education the private of course private yeah how is it you ended up Curious from your family from a teacher you were born that
way for me I just wanted to see more than just what was around me and coming to Nairobi was the best thing if you were to travel somewhere else but in Africa where would you want to go the most in Africa I'll go with Uganda yes why Uganda it's just a thing about Uganda
and the way of living there is not as expensive yeah the people seem very friendly when I meet them other places uhhuh yes you have that impression yeah people can be friendly but it all depends on the approach and if you think of visiting
somewhere in Asia where do you think of going in Asia that's a funny one let's see that's a tricky one I'll have to research on that when Co came here uhhuh how bad was that for you you were you couldn't go outside you couldn't meet with friends
or how was it or maybe not so different how would you describe it it was quite hard and it actually delayed my school year I had to extend time in school comparing to what I would have and it was tough it was tough times do you think the country is over
that not really not really yeah so people are still depressed or upset or frustrated yeah people right now are trying to find their way back cuz Co really affected a bunch of people many people became jobless relating with one another became an issue because of the
social distancing yeah and you stayed here or you went back to your your home place actually did both I went back to my place but I also came back to Nairobi yeah in your village do you see large animals very often yes so you see Lions elephants
giraffes we do have elephants we do have hyenas not all the animals are there but we do have some of them and you've seen them so many times you're not excited or you're still excited when you see them it's exciting cuz you know you're not
used to seeing them on a daily basis and it's always fascinating to see animals are any of them dangerous for you yes they are you know our place is near Kenya like I said and sometimes they run away from the forests and they're coming to people's shbl to eat
so it can be a bit scary and which one is the most scary the elephants all the way because they're so big and strong and they might just step on you and they're fast these things can chase you so fast yeah are the hippos scary yes they are they are scary but
you don't get to see see so many of those around kirinyaga there's just a lot more elephants yeah how do you think your village is doing in terms of its economy are people getting richer happier or do you think it's stuck it's stuck I have been there like
a couple of times and I can't say I have seen as many changes as I would expect to see in that span of years why do you think it's stuck the Curious people leave yes that is one and the people are a bit closed-minded about opening up their minds to things they make it more
superstitial than it should be so they don't have so much Christianity they have older beliefs yes I would say that like what would be something they might believe in let me say like in case you're having disputes or let's see one when you see
an owl they say that somebody's going to die or something right yeah and they believe it yeah yeah and sometimes it actually happens weirdly enough and how much of your village is Christian everybody so they blend Christian and earlier beliefs together
yeah how are women's rights in your village do you think the people have not opened up their mind as they should like I said so for the women around that place it's more of like a home BST thing not many of them go out to look for jobs or even
want to do much about studies they just know they should stick around at home to help their husbands and all and raise children so not so much opportunity yeah but Nairobi is much better you think yes it is yeah yeah and you think you'll always live in or near
Nairobi always could be a tough time but but mostly yeah and what do you see of tatto City you work there right yes and you're optimistic yes I am very much so you see a lot of progress jobs coming people visiting yeah Lex see I got a chance to meet you
yes maybe your restaurant will be in Tatu City sometime yeah maybe hopefully will you encourage your brother to move here yes I will you think he might yeah he is very much interested did you or he ever think of moving to Mombasa or some smaller City
or you just think it has to be Nairobi because it's the best the biggest you know it's all about giving a place a chance cuz coming to kambo for me I mostly came because of school around the kambo Institute and me moving to T city was closer to school and still closer to
where I walk what is Campbell Institute it's a long C Ro it's a college and they what is it they teach mostly it's I would say more of the physical kind of stuff like they have business courses like how to build things yes we also have the hospitality
in the their Hospitality there they do teach Hospitality yeah so it's more you studied Hospitality no I haven't you want to or you think you know enough already I only mind to cuz it is something that I'm passionate about but what I did in
school was the procurement the Supply Chain management what did you learn from that there's a lot and there's procurement in almost everything be it hospitals be it companies be it the hotels be it schools procurement is everywhere and it's fascinating how people do
that do you think you need a degree in Hospitality to advance further or you think you can advance just with experience the school is important the school beit is important cuz the papers will also help a great deal but it's all
about it all Narrows down to what you learn on the ground cuz mostly what is in the books is not what normally happens in the places of work it's very different do you think you'll go back to school or it's too much a waste of time I will go back to school but
first I want to learn more learn more on the job yeah what kinds of things do you want to learn you know interacting with people sure takes a lot of courage and humility cuz not everybody is quite friendly some people just come like I
said they want to unwind their days and sometimes they're not that good cuz they can be harsh at times so that part well is something that I would really like to impound on the humility part cuz it's it's it's a bit tricky I will say that what questions might you have for
me how do you like it in Kenya so far well this is only my second day so far I like it very much the Green Vistas are very beautiful this part of Kenya is quite peaceful I've had very good food it's been good to see Steven again but most
of it I haven't seen so I'm going on Safari in a bit my wife is coming okay tomorrow uh and she will join me here mhm I want to come back sometime and see the coast see the north so this time I will only see around here and then Safari okay and for the food people are
very friendly here and it it feels easy to me okay that is great and for food what is one thing that you would like to try maybe the meats I once visited Tanzania uhhuh and I very much like the ugali now I don't know if it's the same here but I go to these meals and
westerners they feed me everything but ugali so I hope I can get some more ugali oh sure you can pass by roast and you you'll be sure to get some okay but unlike you I I like Indian food I like very spicy we have the spicy part too yeah so I will do
that on Safari I'm not sure what they serve me but I think I have no choice yeah but sure since you're in t City you might pass by roasts we'll give you the ugali okay great okay and if you think about America what is it you wonder about America about America is their way of
living their education how they know so much at a very young age they're also quite friendly Americans they're pretty direct fairly open I think yeah final question what is the next thing that you want to learn what is the next thing I want to
learn you know right now the way the country is evolving I believe it's all about gaining a skill you need to have skill cuz employment the deductions are getting worse and you'll rather be self-employed than it is being an employee so for the skills I would like
to learn more in about technology I don't want to be left behind I want to learn more do you use chat GPT by the way oh yes I do and what do you do with it I have another few more questions then um I learned about chat GPT through
a YouTube channel and also I have colleagues who are so much impressed by it and I just like the way it makes work easier for everybody but it also poses as a threat cuz once you're getting the AI to do all that stuff for you you might not need the employees as you do
but do you talk with it does it write poems for you do you ask it questions yeah all of those when I have burning questions when I want to know something cuz when you're in the night shift I would say I'm not much of a newspaper person or news
so CH is my way to go just more fun yeah Chad and Tik Tok Harriet Meri thank you very much you're welcome thank you too for having me it's a pleasure thanks for listening to conversations with Tyler you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts
Spotify or your favorite podcast app if you like this podcast please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review this helps other listeners find the show on Twitter I'm Tyler Cowan and the show is at cow and convos until next time please keep listening and [Music] learning