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Game changer. >> The very first. >> Yeah.
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>> Beats one world premiere world record. Changed >> Americana. >> Saved us. >> Shut up. >> Serious. >> No. >> Not even kidding.
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Did >> I ever tell you about that?
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I think I have told you about that first meeting that I had with Jimmy.
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>> Well, and then I'll tell my Jimmy story.
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You tell your Jimmy story.
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>> I don't know if I told this story or not. I was at his house. Trent was there. Trent Resnner. >> Yeah.
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>> And obviously I was my pants.
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I was like >> I've been there. >> Yeah. I was like 19.
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Um, we came to talk to me about like the future of music and they were talking about Apple Music and Beats One and >> they were like, you know, I think they initially intended for it to be a social platform where you could like comment and engage and then they moved away from that.
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But anyway, >> we had connect which was kind of we dabbled in a bit. Yeah. >> Yeah.
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But I remember he was like he was so austere >> and he had someone bring him he like rang a phone and then somebody came in with this like silver tray that had a vitamin water with a straw in it on the tray.
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I was just like whoa >> I feel like I'm with like music mafia right now possible.
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>> I was like this is crazy.
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Like I'm like am I going to leave here a made man?
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Like >> you know what's funny?
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I think I think when we did that interview around the album you did with Trent Attakus at your old gaff >> uh somebody did bring a venom water in with a straw in it.
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So I think for you so I think maybe you carried that behavior through.
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>> I wish I took something else from him like impeccable business skills or something. >> Fine. You're doing fine.
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He brought me into his office 3 days after we launched a global radio station in 3 months and told me two days earlier how we had achieved a miracle and how incredible it was and how he was going to be my friend for life and how he pulled the whole thing off and two days later >> brought me in and said, "Have you broken a song yet?" >> Yeah.
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>> And I said, "What are you talking about?"
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He's like, "You've been on for two days.
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You haven't broken a song yet." >> Two days ago. What are you doing? What are you doing? I told you, man.
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It doesn't make sense unless you break records.
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So then uh I went back and told the story before, but we're here to talk about this era and amongst other things.
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So let's do it once and for all for the fans.
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I went to the studio and I said to my team, new friend JJ Corsini, now super close, extra tight bff, JJ Corsini now.
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>> I said to him, man, we need to find a song really fast >> like tomorrow. Like >> tomorrow.
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And he came in the next day and he was like, "Dude, play this."
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>> And we played New Americana. >> Oh god.
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and uh >> lived to fight another day. >> The rest was history.
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>> So 10 years on as we sit here in our brand new studios, feeling like one of the best shops in town truthfully. >> Yeah.
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>> Like you know the idea of telling stories and getting to know artists like yourself and having the space to be able to truly understand what's in your spirit has worked >> and I really mean this.
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It could have been very different if you hadn't released New Americana.
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>> It would have been different for for everybody here.
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Would have been really different for me. I'll tell you that much.
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So, we should we give ourselves a little polite round of applause for being alive at this point and saying congratulations. You >> did it. >> Still doing it. Still doing it.
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>> You are a reflective person as an individual.
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I'm sure you give me that You've always given me that vibe that you like to absorb what's going on in your life, learn from it, try to move forward.
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But >> as an artist, you're restless. You're a futurist.
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You're moving forward and trying new Do you know how happy I was to know that we were going to get a chance to reflect about this record? >> Oh, I love that.
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because I wasn't sure you would do it. >> Oh, yeah. Abs.
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I mean, I'm so proud of this album.
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I think a lot of people like, you know, um they try to distance themselves from their early work.
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And I think I certainly did for a period of time, you know, like it felt like an an unwanted reminder of like myself before I had grown or before I had figured out, I guess, before I learned the rules, you know.
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And so in the time where I was very conscious of the rules, the time before the rules was uh jarring >> and then I very quickly learned that the rules mean absolutely nothing and there's no reason to pay attention to them.
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In which case, you know, Badlands then became just so beloved to me. >> I love that.
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I love that you kind of had to go through the whole the whole kind of tumble dry to realize you sort of had it right the first time listening to yourself. >> Yeah, definitely. Oh my gosh, 100%.
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I mean, I think that, you know, there I could I couldn't have I couldn't possibly make this record again, you know?
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I couldn't do it all over again.
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And people ask, you know, they're like, "You want another album like Badlands?
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Make another album like Badlands."
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>> What do you think they mean by that?
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What are they looking for?
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>> You know, I think that what they're looking for is >> it's not like you're not conceptual.
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Every one of your albums has a through line, right?
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>> No, I think the thing that they want from me is something that's impossible to attain at this point.
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And it's kind of like it's more energetic. It's more abstract.
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And it's that kind of sense of that that naive courage of having not yet failed but also having not yet won.
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You know, you're kind of existing in this in between space.
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You're like um it's like Schroinger's record, you know, it's like it hasn't won, but it hasn't failed yet either.
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And so I think that there was a lot of um just natural and inherent decision making that I was doing.
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Um, also like as evidenced by the record, I was I was really unashamed of my ideas.
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And I think that that's something that starts to happen to you as an artist is you start to worry about the way they're going to be received or you say like I can't say this or I can't do this, especially in the context of yourself.
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There was no context of me yet.
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And now when I make a record, it's like how does this what does this mean in the context of the last record?
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>> You're wrestling with your identity one project at a time. >> Yeah, absolutely.
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back then I feel like you were rejecting everyone's version of you and you were just like all of you.
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That's what I felt like Badlands was to me. >> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. And it's funny because I was so right without even knowing that I was, you know, I I saw this interview clip of me cuz we were digging through the archives, you know, we were putting this anniversary together and there was um a
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clip of me in the back of a car coming from like an interview or something like that and I was on the phone doing another interview and there's just this I have sunglasses on and like a leather jacket and I'm like in the back of a it's ridiculous. And I'm like, they're
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And I'm like, they're filming me, you know, and I'm like like Miss Hot Shot and I'm like uh on the phone and this is a clip of me going I just don't ever want to be one thing, you know?
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Like I just don't ever want to be put in a box or like defined in any way.
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I just like want to be able to like I want to be able to do everything and try everything.
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And I just like I refuse to be defined.
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And when I look at it, I'm like, "Oh my god."
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I'm like, "Someone needs to humble you right now."
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And little did I know that would happen, you know, it was like that humbling, it's inevitable for everyone and it would happen to me eventually.
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>> Um, but I was so correct and I was so prophetic in that eventually my career would take the turn where I would become, you know, more uh genre experimental and sort of less defined by what the expectations of me were.
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And and it was actually kind of nice to see that clip because I was like, "Oh, well, if that's the one thing, you know, according to 19-year-old me, the one thing I want to do is not be defined as one thing."
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I've certainly succeeded at that.
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So, you know, there's a lot of um there's a lot of uh personal success in that reflection, I guess.
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>> And some healing, too, because >> Yeah.
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>> Everybody's running from themselves at a certain point in their lives to figure out who they >> I've been going in a circle. Yeah.
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And and that and that and there's some real truth to that, too.
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>> I think it's really cool when you can like stop on your journey for a second and just acknowledge that the younger you >> for all of the tone maybe not being quite right the way you're saying it or what you're wearing or how you're presenting it, >> you make it's all make believe at that point. >> Yeah.
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>> But the truth is in there regardless.
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And I feel like everybody wanted you to be a pop star and you are, but you are a shape shifter and you change the shape of pop every single time. And you do. >> Thank you. I appreciate that. I I don't I don't know.
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It's like I I think, you know, I think that >> it was funny.
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I was really adamant in the beginning.
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I was like, you know, >> I really didn't like being called a pop star in the beginning.
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>> I really didn't like it.
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And uh I I think consciously because I really wanted to be cool and I don't know that I thought pop was cool at the time. >> Yeah.
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>> And um >> Well, it wasn't until you and Lord and a few of you came along and actually it up to >> I think pop is quite cool and we've talked about this before.
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I think that, you know, people underestimate the science behind making a pop record and how like, you know, how unbelievably cool it is to understand uh formula and the the way that societyy's going to like engage with a record and how to make something universal but also singular.
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It's like, you know, I do think that's very cool.
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think that's very cool. And you know, we can talk about this later, but like as I grow in my career more as a songwriter and I'm writing for other people and I'm thinking about, you know, those kinds of things, it's like I've certainly
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embraced pop more, >> but I definitely have taken, >> you know, I I I resented being called a pop star at first and then I had, you know, a period of time where I >> most certainly I there was no way I could not have made the argument that I wasn't one. Then,
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Then, you know, it became really clear to me that I had to make a choice.
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Um, and that choice had nothing to do with like the label or the container of pop star.
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That word has def certainly become like um a bit of a like a spectre though in when I look at my my career because it's it's like are you always a pop star once you were one?
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Do you stay one once you've become one?
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are do you are you not one anymore when you stopped does that mean you ever were it's like very um >> just always felt that you just didn't like what came with it and so for me >> no I didn't and I didn't >> you know so that was what you were rejecting so it's like cool if you want to call me a pop star that makes total
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sense because yeah man I'm fabulous and I have no problem presenting my vision and vivid color >> and I have no problem making it the most immersive creative experience for you as possible >> but don't make me sit in that narrow seat and clap everybody and just be a dick about it And that and that does come along with the territory historically. And I think you can be a
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And I think you can be a modern pop star now and reject >> Yeah.
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>> the baggage that comes with it. >> Yeah.
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I I did not like being >> that famous. >> Yeah.
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>> Um and I thought that I was going to >> I did cuz when I was a little kid, I was like I wanted to be famous. I really did.
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>> And I I envisioned the whole thing and I thought that I would be excellent at it.
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Um, and I did all right with it for a little while and then it just was it got to be so much. Um, >> yeah.
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>> And then I I had, you know, a period of time where I was like, well, if I walk back now, I'm going to look like I'm failing.
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It's not going to look like a choice.
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And then ultimately, I just that didn't matter anymore.
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I had to do what I wanted, what what was right for me, what was safe for me, what was best for me.
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Um, and it still confuses me to this day.
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sometimes where like you know I'm always I'm always a bit surprised um with myself and the jour the the journey I've been on did not take the shape that I thought it was going to I I really thought that I was going to be um ravenously climbing and I still I don't want you know my fans to hear this and think that that implies a lack of desire to work or a lack of desire desire to work hard cuz it's not that at all.
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It's just I I have a really quiet little life, you know, separate of all of this.
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And I really enjoy it, you know. I really enjoy it.
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And um as long as I just get to keep making records, making anything really.
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It might not even be records. I don't know.
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I might, you know, I'm only 30, so I might change my mind and start, you know, putting all of my attention into writing and directing or >> You already are.
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You've already got a show coming.
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>> I'm dipping my toes in it.
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You know, >> you won little by little really easily. You won.
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I mean, everybody who gets on a journey and and has to face that strange combination of what you wanted your whole life and the expectations you set for yourself and then they're matched. >> Yeah. >> Here's the thing.
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The world goes, "Ah, >> you want it all." Well, outstanding. We have it all to give. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> We have it all to give. >> Yeah.
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>> And then it's like, okay, everybody has to decide like, is it going to take me over?
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And we see where that leads. >> Yeah.
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M >> and it can lead to some very very dark and sad places. >> Absolutely.
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>> Or are you going to find a way to bring it back to to find some balance? >> Yeah.
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>> Some some sense of flow and and to dictate a little bit more about how you show up and what you choose to spend your time on. >> You won.
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Your last tour is the most successful tour you did. >> Yeah, I know. It's crazy.
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>> So, and Badlands is like currently it's like climbing the charts as we speak. >> Yeah.
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It's definitely in the top 50 or something.
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No, it's like Yeah, it's up there.
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It's like so 10 years old.
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So, >> so, so we'll talk a little bit more about what success means as conversation unfolds because you're having it, but I I can only imagine we can get to the to the punchline, which is it it's actually >> Yeah.
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>> It's way better now than it was even when it felt like it was all to grab.
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>> I've I've landed on the home planet again. You know what I mean?
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after like my whole little journey, it feels it feels more similarly to how it did then, minus all of the the fear.
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And don't get me wrong, I still get the fear and I still get the hunger.
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You know, there are definitely times when I'm in the studio making a record because the problem the problem for me is like and I and I say this and this is going to probably someone's gonna think that this sounds arrogant of me, but whatever. I >> doesn't matter.
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>> The the thing is is like I could I could do it. I absolutely could.
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I'm an excellent songwriter.
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No >> I know that I could do it.
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I've written so many hits.
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I could write so many more.
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My my lack of participation in that is not for an inability. It's a choice, you know?
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Um, but I do get the hunger where sometimes I'm like, should I just rip it? Should I just rip it?
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Just put out a pop album with a bunch of like smashes on, you know?
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It's like literally, >> maybe I'll just rip it.
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>> maybe I'll just rip it. I was just talking to Djon who I love >> me too >> yesterday and it was his first on camera thing he's ever done really cool and we were talking about process and I was talking about dress and I was like do you feel icky when you listen to dress now because you're such a shape
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shifter and I was like that's such a copyright you know to tell you that dress looks good on you and it always will flex line >> absolutely >> and he was like oh he was like and he said he said no I can I can I can do that like you know so it's exactly the same thing like he you have the muscle in you but it doesn't make it you >> doesn't mean it's who you are. >> Yeah. Well, I think the compromises that >> Yeah.
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Well, I think the compromises that I have to make in doing that are ones that I'm just not willing to make because I have to strip my songs of all the things that I love about them to reach that point.
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I'm certainly capable of it, but you know, all of the specificity and all of the, you know, uh the the self-referential or contextual nuance like in the songs like those have to go away for a record to really go in in um in a pop space.
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or you have to be so so famous that people get all those references and they're invested and they care almost like from like a reality TV point of view.
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>> Can I keep you a little honest on this point though?
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I I don't know if maybe I think you're undervaluing the music, the pop songs you've created.
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A I don't think that there's >> you'll feel the compromise.
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I'm not trying to I can't argue with that.
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But from a listener's point of view, from a fans point of view, I don't feel like you're compromising any of the of the intelligent nuances or the places and spaces you move it in.
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>> I've gotten lucky a few times.
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Some of them have landed one foot in the, you know, like like a record like You Should Be Sad, for example, is like >> is very specific to me.
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Um, >> and uh, or record like Nightmare, you know.
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Um, >> or an album like Badlands.
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need to remind anybody in this room that this is now three times like certified platinum and was on the Billboard top 200 for a really long long time.
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>> It's a very successful album and it is a deeply conceptual >> very personal. Yeah. >> Right. Absolutely. >> Very personal.
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I mean it is literally the environment what I always got from I think fans all got from it was it is you breaking free from all of the restraint. >> Yeah. Absolutely.
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Also just so funny at the you know cuz I didn't know the half of it man.
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I didn't know the half of it.
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>> So, what did you learn along the way about this record you didn't know at the time?
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>> Well, I learned that, you know, you have to be careful about the way you prophesize because I wrote a lot of songs on this album about the restraints of my life that were very real to me. You know what I mean?
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I um before Badlands, my life sucked. It was not good.
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I you know what's going on?
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>> Well, I was I didn't have anywhere to live for like a long time, you know.
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live for like a long time, you know. I wasn't speaking to my parents and um at best I was couch surfing or like you know hooking up with guys I didn't really like so I could stay at their house and at worst I was like you know sleeping on the street you know and so uh and it felt like an adventure
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sometimes it was really scary but I feel like the way that I was romanticizing it at the time kind of got me through and maybe that was my like my guardian angel of the whole thing you know it's like um I don't you know, like if you walk with confidence over the hole, you don't fall into it cuz you don't know what's there. It's like kind of like having that
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It's like kind of like having that experience in a way.
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I was also just, you know, I was 18 when it started and I was dealing with a lot of mental health issues that I didn't really understand.
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I felt really claustrophobic in my own body and I would later come to find that that was due to like a number of things that I needed to figure out about myself.
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myself. um and all things that were addressable and you know there was a future for me where I could be more comfortable in my own skin but I didn't know that at the time and the record is really about you know vacating a restrictive or oppressive state of being or place or environment
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and um >> it's in the videos I mean you're literally presenting multiple versions of yourself >> I'm being like burnt at the steak in some of them you know it's certainly like I was certainly feeling um I was feeling it and uh you know I um I had a tough go with it. I had a pretty tough
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I had a pretty tough time as a teenager.
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I was exposed to like a lot of um like danger and violence and and things that like I didn't realize how bad it was at the time like until I've gotten a lot older.
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But um yeah, I had some pretty like heinous experiences that um >> were like informing a lot of that of that music.
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Um, and again there's I just didn't know I didn't really I didn't know that it wasn't normal largely due to a lot of the media I was consuming like a lot of like bad movies and good movies about bad things were like you know my my main character syndrome was that I was you know a protagonist in this storyline. >> This speaks to me.
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This movie speaks to my experience. >> Yeah, absolutely.
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And now in retrospect, I go, you're not a protagonist of like a cool Areronowski film.
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You're a child and you should be safe.
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This is not okay that this is happening to you, you know.
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Um, but I channeled it all into into Badlands.
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And a lot of the themes of the record are like, you know, um they're um they're in response to that violence in spite of that violence, both, you know, physical or symbolic.
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Um the record's like hypersexual, you know, in a way that I thought was normal of an 18-year-old.
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And again, look back on and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, where's your mom?"
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you know, um, I just really felt like a grown up, >> hyper hyperdeveloped in in ways that you shouldn't have been forced to. >> Absolutely.
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>> I thought I was such a grown-up.
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I thought that I had done all the growing up there was to do. >> Yeah.
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>> And I was fully ready to navigate the world as a capable and uh, as an adult with absolute agency.
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Oh, that is so scary at that age and especially when your dukes are up because I felt like we're listening to this album, right?
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You know, it is um I I >> It's defensive already.
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>> Super defensive from the jump.
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>> Super defensive, but it's also as I listen back to it and I've listened to it over the years and gotten to know you and seen the growth as an artist and also got to know you a bit.
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>> Oh man, the vulnerability is has just, you know, it's like so funny.
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It's like when you go to therapy, right, and you think you've got it all figured out and then the stuff starts to really starts to show itself and the surface changes.
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You have the moment of, "Oh, I I never realized that before."
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>> And you look around at your own personal garden at your yard and all the stuff that is growing there is completely different to what used to grow there.
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And it's all bright and beautiful and fresh and great.
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And I feel like this album had all that stuff that was just under the surface, but we listened to it and we were all drawn into the concept and we didn't know enough about what you'd been through.
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So, it's like, "Oh, okay.
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Look at this really strong voice coming through in pop music.
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Wow, what a distraction." >> Yeah, absolutely. No, it certainly was.
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also was like kind of one of my uh I didn't realize the failure I was setting myself up for as well in certain ways because there's so much emphasis on my age at the time which is funny is everyone was like you know I was like teen star teen phenomenon or like child star. >> Yeah.
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Well I which I didn't realize at the time you know >> I I definitely didn't realize that I was a child star.
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Um, and I think most people would be really surprised to hear me even say that I was a child star cuz I think most people contextualize me as being like 25 or 26 when Badlands came out.
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It's like no, I wrote it 189 and then it came out when just out just before my 20th birthday I think. I don't know.
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But um I um you know I there was all this you know voice of a generation you know youth leader.
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Um but then simultaneously because I had maturated myself so much um by the time I got to like last year like the year before I found myself having to go around and remind people how young I am.
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Um, like I remember when uh the news broke that my fiance Aan and I were dating and uh a lot of people were like, "Oh my god, she's so much older than him.
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Like, why is he with her? >> He's older than me.
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He's three years older than me."
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older than me." But because everybody remembers him as 19 on television and they remember me as like the grown-up making grown-up albums 10 years ago, they've done this math in their head where they've decided that he's still how they see him on the television and
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that I must be 10 years older than I actually am >> because they felt like I was 28 when I was 21, you know, and so but it was just an interesting thing to witness where I found myself, you know, I remember posting last year and being like, you know, today's my 30th birthday and people were like, "What? >> It's shocking." >> It's shocking."
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>> You know, they were like, "What are you talking about?"
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>> To me, it's shocking because of the amount of distance you've traveled and covered and what you've achieved in such a a short period of time.
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But you're right, and I think it's a fair observation to make. >> Yeah.
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>> That, you know, you are younger than perhaps your work and the public perception of your identity would would would afford you. >> Yeah.
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>> I think that is in part because of the maturity of your music and the way that you approached it, whether you were fake in it. >> Absolutely. >> Or not.
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Well, but it's it's half and half.
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>> And you know, most people don't have the time or energy to be fair to look deeper than the image you want to present.
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So, you know, it's kind of my job to some degree as someone in conversation to go, who is this person really?
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But most most people, including me, sometimes when I I just go like, oh, I'm going to take that at face value.
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>> You know, okay, she's really mature.
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She knows what the she's doing. >> Yeah.
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Child, >> imposter syndrome isn't even really crossing our mind until a little bit later on.
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>> But also, you know, >> your dukes are up.
24:55
Well, it meant I was doing a good job selling it if people couldn't see that it was a facade or defensive selling something for sure. Yeah.
25:03
Think about that first interview I did with you.
25:04
Got my baseball c on your defelling like this.
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>> Your defenses were up.
25:09
>> Yeah, >> they were up. So funny. >> I'll never forget it.
25:10
I mean, I remember you coming in and we were just going to celebrate the fact that we'd both had a mutual win.
25:15
>> You know, that you had this song hitting and it helped us and d and you were so just like, well, I guess that's kind of it for me now. I'm just a pop star now.
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I suppose everyone's just going to and I was like, "Oh this is way deeper than I thought it was going to be out the gate."
25:29
>> Well, I think that one of the things I've been desperate for in my Do you >> remember that? >> Of course I do.
25:32
I'll never forget it again.
25:34
I had the baseball cap on.
25:34
My hair was really short.
25:37
>> I was talking way too loud into the microphone cuz I had never done like a real interview before.
25:41
I didn't know how to do I didn't know how to do anything.
25:43
This is the thing I need people to understand about Badlands.
25:44
Okay, I'm gonna get real with you for a second.
25:46
I need everyone to understand.
25:47
I didn't know how to do anything.
25:53
>> But you told us >> I was lying. I was lying. I was lying. I didn't know anything.
25:58
They were sending me out on red carpets next to celebrities that I had posters of on my bedroom wall.
26:06
And I had like, you know, my I had clothes from my bedroom closet on.
26:13
I had no one had ever taken my picture before.
26:15
I didn't know how to smile and hold my body. I didn't know anything.
26:20
I, you know, I got ready today and I got like my special lotion for the camera and like the eye drops that make my eyes look all nice and white and sparkly and I know how to do my makeup and I know how to do the thing.
26:30
It's like 10 years of having to learn that all these tricks that everybody has. I got out there. I wasn't media trained. >> I was dirty. I was poor. I didn't know anything.
26:40
I needed dental work done.
26:40
I wouldn't show this side of my face when I smiled in pictures cuz I was missing teeth that were visible cuz I grew up poor.
26:48
I didn't have access to dental work, like to health care.
26:50
Like I I hadn't seen a doctor in years and I'm walking red carpets next to like Beyonce. I'm 19.
27:00
>> Like I have no I haven't I've never had a pedicure in my life.
27:01
Like I don't even I don't have no idea what I'm doing. No idea.
27:06
Don't know how to talk to people. Don't know how to dress.
27:08
Don't know what I'm supposed to say.
27:09
no context for the the things that I'm saying right now.
27:14
People are going to have access to them 10 years from now.
27:17
>> Y >> I just was like, I have no choice but to just get out there and just fight and win and prove that I deserve to be here just like everybody else.
27:28
And if I'm being honest with you, I don't know if I did, but I I think the this the fact that I stayed even though I probably didn't deserve to. >> Hang on.
27:39
Deserve >> means means maybe that I did deserve to. If that makes sense. >> Yeah.
27:43
It doesn't matter whether people thought you should be there. You should be there.
27:48
>> I don't know if I even really I think that the reason I was like that was because I didn't think that I should be there.
27:54
And so I had to >> horrible imposter syndrome to be going through. >> Well, yeah.
27:59
>> And understandably so. I'm not saying it's not. It totally makes sense.
28:02
>> Plucked from absolute obscurity and thrown into, you know, like I I'm going to be honest with you.
28:08
Like I when I see someone like Sabrina Carpenter, she was supposed to be famous her entire life.
28:12
She's an absolute superstar.
28:14
Every day I go online and I see a new video of her when she's 5 8 10 12 like immaculate.
28:19
like in a sparkly dress performing, lighting up the room, absolute confidence, like knowing she's supposed to be there and kind of just like biting the time till she ripens into okay, now you know it's her time and she's she's just and I know she worked really really hard, you know, like this time that she's having right now.
28:44
She worked years and years and years to be here for real.
28:48
>> I just I would have loved to have had a pop star like her growing up, you know.
28:52
I think she's she's amazing.
28:54
>> Who did you have instead? >> Oh my gosh.
28:55
Well, I had when I was really little, obviously I had >> I had Britney, I had Destiny's Child, I had Janet, I had Christina, Gwen.
29:06
You know, Gwen was a huge deal to me, especially just because of the way that she was constantly evolving her sound and linking up with unexpected producers and creating unexpected very committed to the visual aesthetic.
29:23
>> Punk rock kid from Orange County, man.
29:23
I mean, you know, I mean, find yourself in a pop room like that and you're Gwen Stefani, you're like, "Oh, I know how to subvert this shit." >> Yeah, totally.
29:30
Always looking for the subversive angle, you know, which I I really really loved.
29:34
And then, you know, I had people who were accidental pop stars, you know, that I really looked up to like Atlantis or >> where did the darkness come from?
29:40
Where did the where did the dark where did where did the all that stuff is great?
29:44
And obviously that many of those stories became edgy over time because life happens, >> but where's the darkness girl?
29:52
>> Yeah, I'm a rock girl. >> Where's that side?
29:53
What is that side of you that ended up on Badlands and has subsequently fought for attention every single album you've ever made?
30:00
>> Well, I think that I really, you know, obviously Trent is obvious.
30:01
You know, I really liked how sort of, you know, um, bitey and ballsy, mouthy and he was, you know, I really like I just admired his like >> broken, >> his angst, broken.
30:17
>> His songs are so broken.
30:18
>> And he had such an authority over that as well.
30:20
Like when you sometimes when you hear a musician sing, you're like, >> how bad could it be?
30:25
The opening song on Badlands is Castle and it opens with this like industrial.
30:31
>> It's an industrial album, you know?
30:31
I'm pulling from 9 in nails all of the time, which like god little did I know, you know what I mean?
30:38
Like what that would mean in the future.
30:39
And and you know I uh and there's a reason why a lot of people think Love and Power is the best album I've ever made.
30:45
And it's because I'm so unbelievably at home with Trent Attakus as producers because I've been and I said this in our interview with them.
30:53
I've been ripping them off my whole life.
30:55
>> Yeah, but it's deeper than that.
30:55
Totally fair, but it's deeper than that.
30:57
You know there is a thing about gravitational pull between the people who alter our DNA and chemistry through clear inspiration and the ultimate journey towards coming face to face with these people either as a fan, as a friend or a collaborator. >> Yeah.
31:09
And you look at someone and go this is material I know how to work with.
31:11
I'm I can I can handle this >> speak this language. >> Absolutely. Yeah.
31:15
And that was like you know and but but I've always been Yeah.
31:20
I've always been really really rock influenced and like you know in all all types of rock you know like I think that I I got my first My mom was like really cool.
31:34
She was just really cool.
31:34
She was like a '9s she was like an 80s new wave kid and like a '9s club kid. >> Was she a young mom? >> Yeah. Yeah.
31:40
>> Yeah. Yeah. She was 20 when she had me and she dropped out of college and she um but she raised me on like you know the cure and the Smiths and >> uh Depes Mode and um a lot of female singer songwriters too you know she had that like
31:57
>> she had that like uh >> all those all those all those guys are very female singer songwritery too I mean Robert Smith Martin Gore I mean writing from that perspective >> Martin Gore is such yeah no absolutely yeah they're all there lot a lot of that
32:12
and then you know she and then she was growing with the times too so you know I was really little listening to like Blink182 and Green Day and like you know my mom would drive for hours and break down the Angels and Airwaves box car racer Blink182 you know I'm in the back
32:26
of the car I'm like how many years old like you know she's telling me the lore it was crazy >> she's getting you deep on box car racer >> you are one of a few hundred,000 people who know a lot about box car racing >> absolutely that was my education as a kid. >> I'm just saying we could do nerd out
32:42
>> I'm just saying we could do nerd out about that all day, but if there was 100 other people in the room, they're just like, >> "What are you talking about?" Yeah.
32:47
My dad listened to, you know, um like just a lot of like hip-hop, New Jack Sw, you know, >> I think you and No, no pun intended because the obvious raised on Biggie and Nirvana of it all, you know what I mean?
33:03
But it's so true and and a a lot of it snuck in and influenced >> my records in a lot of ways.
33:07
is like the syncopated nature of the way that I write is from growing up listening to rappers or listening to you know the signature syncopation of New Jack Swing.
33:16
>> Um and then you know my mom obviously put this like deeply um alternative perspective.
33:22
I was, you know, we all know what it's like to be five, six, seven, eight years old in the back of a car and you hear a song on the radio and you can't really understand what it's about, but you know it's making you feel, you know, and you're just having that cinematic moment of like you're gaining consciousness.
33:39
You're like, "Oh, the world is happening.
33:42
>> Your DNA in real time." >> Absolutely.
33:44
I think about all the time with the music I play for my son. My son is so funny.
33:48
His taste in music is hilarious. He's four. He just turned four. >> Yeah.
33:52
So, he's getting his identity up.
33:53
He's just like, "No, mommy, that." >> Yeah.
33:55
His favorite group is Tribe Called Quest. >> Yeah.
34:01
I mean, the coolest kid ever.
34:04
>> Holy >> The coolest kid ever. He's so cool. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And he's >> outstanding.
34:09
So, you're like just bumping Lowen Theory in the car and he's just >> Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.
34:12
Like, I can't even tell you.
34:14
Like, he'll be like, "Mommy, I need New Balance sneakers because he's like five." >> Yes. Like five.
34:19
He's like, "I want New Balance sneakers." like five.
34:22
And then I told him I was like, "We're going to He says something.
34:25
>> When's the last time you heard a funky diabetic?"
34:27
>> He's also he knows every word to every song. >> Yeah.
34:31
>> Every morning on the drive to school, I go, "Ender, what do you want?
34:34
What do you want to hear?"
34:35
And he goes, "Bugging out."
34:37
And I'm like, "Oh, you got it, dude. Bugging out."
34:39
Like, >> yo, microphone check one, two. What is this?
34:44
>> Yeah, he's he's amazing.
34:44
He's like >> what a legend.
34:47
>> What a cool thing to like do. Also, I'm so lucky.
34:49
My friends with kids his age are stuck listening to like the most annoying music ever.
34:55
>> Awful >> And my son is like, >> check it out.
34:57
>> Yeah, >> that's coming for you, too. >> Oh, I know. >> That's for you, too.
35:00
At some point, and I mean this with the greatest love and respect, our little vanity projects grow up and decide that they have their own taste.
35:08
>> And then it's just like, oh >> Well, I don't even know where he found it.
35:11
That's the thing, cuz it wasn't like I sat him down and put him on to it.
35:12
It was something he just like subconsciously picked up on. >> He's got good taste.
35:16
And by the way, that's going to serve him really well because as you know and everybody who's in the arts or anybody in life really knows, taste is your differentiator.
35:22
So he has great taste and and long made that continue.
35:27
But there will be a time when he probably plays something and you're like >> I'm be like, "What is this?" >> God damn it. >> I know. I'm like, "What?
35:32
I have a 20-year-old brother, so I go through it with him sometimes." >> Wow. >> Yeah.
35:37
He's like, "I said something the other day." What' I say?
35:40
>> I had I had an outfit on. I had an outfit on.
35:43
And I and this is again he's part of the the generation that's aging me against my will. >> He's 20. I outfit on.
35:50
I was like is this like cool or is it giving too like net spend?
35:55
>> Why did you even ask him?
35:56
>> Well, I was like is this cool?
35:56
I feel like I'm it's giving too much like net spend to holl like destroy lonely.
35:59
And he was like how do you know what any of that is?
36:04
>> And I was like because I'm cool. I know what's going on.
36:07
And he just gave me this absolute look like I was his mother.
36:10
mother. like this look of disgust like why do you know what net spend is >> you were that kid you would have the same >> deal no I was here's a secret this is the secret knowledge about me I was only rebellious in ways that were unconscious it was very difficult for me to consciously rebel >> you consciously want to please
36:30
>> straight A student I am such a straight A student which is like it's not cool to be that way but I am I'm still that way >> like I was late to this interview and I was having a meltdown in the are I was like I was like I like to be punctual like you know I don't know it's just I I think that I Okay I >> I love the unconscious rebellion though too. >> Yeah. When I didn't know that I was >> Yeah.
36:53
When I didn't know that I was doing it. I was very good at it. >> Yeah.
36:57
>> And then sometimes I would find out that I was rebelling and I'd be like really really am I in trouble? No. Okay.
37:01
I'm going to keep doing it then.
37:04
you know, and then there'd be other times where like I think there was an like an oppositional defiance in me a little bit.
37:11
It's >> that always preceded change, did it not?
37:14
Was that always not the last step before you decided to take a turn left? >> Yes. Yes.
37:17
I don't ever I never have and even when I was younger rebelled for the sake of rebelling.
37:21
I'm not like a shock value artist, you know, like when when I've rebelled, it's been really intentional.
37:27
And a lot of the time it's been in response to like an institution or a system or an expectation that I feel is inherently unfair.
37:33
Like I have a real like justice thing, you know.
37:36
Um >> and so like, you know, there's been many a conversation between me and the guys where, you know, whether I'm 19 or I'm 25 or it's last week where I'm like, "Well, that's they just can't they can't do that because I did this."
37:48
And they're like, "Well, that's how it is.
37:50
And I'm like, "What do you mean? >> What do you mean?"
37:52
And they're like, "That's just Ash.
37:55
That's just how it's going to go."
37:56
And I'm like, "But that's not no no that's not fair because I showed up with my part and then they told us they were going to blah blah blah, so they have to blah blah blah."
38:05
And they're like, "Well, they didn't and we can't make them."
38:08
>> And my brain just like goes, "Doesn't anybody care about doing the right thing?" >> Yeah. It's tough.
38:12
like keeping their people just don't care about and I've realized also part of that is due to the reason that I've always had so much more to lose than the people around me. You know what I mean?
38:22
So like I always want to do the right thing and I want to work really hard and do my best because I've always had so much more to lose.
38:26
I'm I'm on album six next and I still have a chip on my shoulder >> still. >> Yeah.
38:33
I'm always >> still Are you still worried it can be taken away? >> Logically, no. >> Good.
38:41
illogically every day of my life because I'm going to be honest with you, you know, it it kind of was and I and I uh I didn't handle that well at first.
38:50
I didn't handle that well at first.
38:53
I got I came around on it and I'm like, you know, I'm really happy.
38:58
>> What did you lose though? What do you mean? What did you lose?
39:00
Well, I think the timing is really unfortunate that Love and Power followed Manic because what happened after Manic and at the tail end of that album cycle was COVID was um Tik Tok becoming the primary marketing vehicle and music discovery vehicle.
39:29
at that time >> and uh I got pregnant and I had a baby and I told myself I'm going to take these two years and I'm going to make this experimental record that I'm so proud of.
39:42
I still my favorite album I've ever made.
39:44
Um and I made this movie IMAX film, you know, I did all this stuff and then um I was like I'm going to retreat a little bit into um I'm going to become a little bit more mysterious.
39:58
I've been just like running my mouth and telling everyone everything about me. Yeah.
40:03
Especially with that record because it deserved it.
40:06
>> Um, >> and so I had budgeted about two years of that for myself mentally, like spiritually budgeted, you know.
40:12
I was like, I could probably afford two years of not being like plastered all over everyone's faces, especially coming off of Manic, you know, I was like on the radio all the time, like, you know, and I was like, I feel like I've established myself enough that I can afford to do this.
40:27
Um, and I I was probably this probably true. I was probably right.
40:29
But then, um, after that two years, I was like, okay. And then I got sick.
40:34
And then came two years that I didn't budget for.
40:39
And you can go away for two years.
40:43
I don't know if you can go away for four.
40:46
I don't know if you can go away for four.
40:47
And that was kind of the lesson that I learned.
40:49
Um, I didn't plan for that second two years.
40:56
I planned to, you know, get through the first few months of my son's life and then get get back at it, you know, and probably make another record like Manic, to be honest with you. I was like, "Okay, cool.
41:07
I did this experimental record and now I'm going to go back to, >> you know, what I did before COVID and before having my son, which is I'm going to go back to being a big ass pop star, you I'm going to like I'm going to have another without me and another this and go do a you know world tour and like cuz I did it you know I've established myself it's not going away. It did. It absolutely did.
41:30
Um it was harder and harder for me to get records out.
41:33
It was a whole generation of young people who were not familiar with me because they all came of age in that fouryear gap.
41:43
Like, you know, a kid who was 12 when Manic came out was 16 turning 17 by the time I was ready to be putting out music again, and they just didn't know anything about me. Yeah.
41:54
>> I was the girl who had like a couple hit songs on the radio when they were a little kid on their way to elementary school in the car with their mom. >> Yeah.
42:00
>> Their mom liked without me.
42:00
Their mom sang along to Graveyard.
42:01
Their, >> you know, their aunt liked Closer.
42:03
And so that was a shocker to me cuz I'd always been like a hip with the kids artist.
42:10
And then all of a sudden I was like, "What the hell is going on?"
42:13
>> You know, having people be like, "Oh yeah, my mom really liked her when I was little."
42:16
But does she still make music? >> I was terrifying.
42:20
>> Um, >> and it was because I had taken all that time off >> and it was time that I didn't account for >> taking all that time off.
42:28
>> Well, it wasn't on purpose, you know, >> to be really pedantic about the language here. >> Well, and it sucked. >> Yeah, >> it sucked.
42:34
I was like, what are you talking about?
42:35
Oh god, it was melting down every day.
42:37
I was like, this is so unfair. So sorry, man.
42:38
You know, the thing about time is just so brutal.
42:40
And I have this this developing relationship with the concept of time and art where I really really try to not let it define the experience.
42:51
>> Well, I know that now.
42:52
>> Yeah, >> I know that now.
42:52
I know that about >> cuz it is illusionary.
42:55
And it's not to say that what was happening wasn't real and wasn't deserving of any kind of reaction of like, hey, we need to regroup and figure out what I want cuz I'm not done here.
43:04
Well, that's totally valid, >> but you kind of would have done that anyway.
43:10
And I think when time starts to really be the defining characteristic of whether or not what you're doing has any value, we've got it wrong.
43:18
>> Well, I think that that's symptomatic of the b of the business, though.
43:20
It's symptomatic of the algorithm of the industry, you know.
43:24
Um, >> yeah, we've done a shitty job of letting the things that matter to between the artist and the fan get swept up and the and the desire for efficiency and and algorithmic >> surfacing.
43:37
And it's like, I get all that and I'm not I'm not a I'm not a I'm not an enemy of progress. I wouldn't be here. >> Look at this place. Like, I'm into it.
43:46
But I also think that that two things can be right.
43:50
>> And I think that that the things that are timeless should come along for the ride. Yeah.
43:55
Otherwise, >> it takes a long time for something to become timeless, though. >> Yeah.
44:00
But if we know in our heart what truly matters and we can make make it work with the that's kind of developing around us, Yeah.
44:06
>> we're going to make that better.
44:08
>> Like the Badlands is a great example of it cuz when that record first came out, panned panned like you know it was reacting with the kids, but generally speaking, a lot of like stuffy old reviewers were like this is cringy and juvenile and you know, whatever else and people didn't like it or didn't get it.
44:24
you know, eight years later, people are like, "Oh, Badlands was so ahead of its time, defined a generation."
44:29
You can't call an album an album that defined a generation when it just came out because it hasn't done that yet. You know what I mean? So, so like totally.
44:38
And I and I think about that a lot when it comes to like Love and Power, especially The Great Impersonator. You know what I mean?
44:42
Like that record is about a very very specific thought, a very specific feeling.
44:45
And that record might not ever have its biggest day until the day that I die, which could be whenever.
44:51
And hopefully it's very long time from now, but who knows?
44:53
And that's record's going to be rediscovered and the context of it is going to be reevaluated. >> Keep your thought.
44:59
But just to add that really quickly, I think music is like uh plants.
45:02
I think it's a real living breathing organism.
45:03
I think energy is around us and all the time.
45:05
And I think that music as we think of this invisible trade of like I made it dinner somehow.
45:10
How does it get from you to me?
45:10
Well, how it's living, breathing, going from people to people and changing their lives. It's on its own journey. >> Yeah.
45:19
>> Badlands is an example of that now.
45:19
and so will impersonator and all the other records you've done.
45:23
You made it, released it.
45:24
It's living and breathing and growing.
45:27
Right now, someone is putting that record on for the first time.
45:31
Just think about that for a second.
45:32
Right now, somebody is actually playing that album for the first time and it's changing their life. >> No.
45:37
And I know that about the records and it helps when I'm making them.
45:38
But, and this is the thing that I'm going to posit you. >> Pitch it.
45:47
A lot of people consider if I can't have love, I want power to be the best record of my career.
45:51
Like my magnumopus, like my absolute like I'm in the truest form.
45:57
I worked with, you know, some of the most prolific acclaimed musicians.
46:00
They brought the absolute best out of me.
46:04
I came to them with my best material before they even touched it.
46:07
Um, it was my most successful attempt at a concept record as an artist who has been like I've been trying to make concept albums my entire career.
46:20
>> The record is it takes a while for people to get it and every year more and more people get it and every year more and more people like it and it's the record that I do think people are going to consider to be timeless which means that it's a success.
46:31
I don't know that I necessarily care about the um the numerical reception of it, but this is what I'm positing to you.
46:43
The consequences of doing that are that I got dropped from my label. >> Unthinkable.
46:48
I got dropped from my label and then I had to go sign somewhere else and I had to go sign somewhere else 10 years into my career having multiple number one hits, massive records, number one albums, you know, triple platinum albums, four times platinum albums, and I made that record and then I couldn't get the tools or the resources to make another one.
47:16
and especially not make another one to the standard that I that had become expected of me.
47:22
So then if I fail again and then I have to go make another record and I have even less faith and even less resources, then I'm stuck.
47:32
And then what will happen is then 5 years later when people decide that Love and Power is timeless and one of the best albums of the decade or whatever they decide that's going to be great and I'm going to love when all those articles come out, but none of it none of it is going to help me get my music made.
47:45
So what did you learn from that?
47:49
>> Uh well, I certainly don't regret it.
48:06
I certainly don't regret it.
48:06
I am so proud of that record and I'm proud of the one that followed it.
48:14
Um, if I regret anything to be honest with you, it might be the big one because I set an expectation for myself that um I wasn't able to promise every time And I part of me wishes that I had kind of just kept going at the speed and the stasis that allowed me to create comfortably and connect with people.
49:11
Um cuz there was like I said that period of time where I was chasing chasing chasing chasing chasing chasing chasing.
49:21
Um, and it does feel like in a way you curse yourself for climbing so high up the mountain when you start falling because you're like, "If I hadn't gone up so high, it wouldn't have been it wouldn't have been such a big fall and it wouldn't hurt as bad on the way down, >> you know?" >> Mhm.
49:50
But anyway, all of that was to say that I agree with you about making records that are timeless.
49:54
And I agree with you about making records that ignore the algorithm and ignore the the expectation because you and I are artists and we care about art and we both truly truly feel that way.
50:05
But there does come a point where the industry doesn't operate that way.
50:12
>> And I've just chosen the path of putting my head down and just making the records that I want to make.
50:19
and to the best of my ability.
50:21
>> But every album you've put out from Badlands on has allowed you to put new tools in the box and they're your tools. >> Yeah.
50:28
>> Which means that that you don't have to rely on anyone else's tools one step at a time.
50:34
And so what I care about as a fan of yours, like we're buddies, >> but I'm a fan. >> I want album 52.
50:45
And to get to album 52, there isn't a human being that doesn't go like this. It is a guarantee. There is no that.
50:55
And the best the best in our lives, the best we can hope for, the ones that really see it through, the Neil Youngs of this world, they know this and they just make the art and they move forward. >> Yeah.
51:12
>> And they move forward with it. And that's not advice.
51:14
That's just an observation based on what we're talking about.
51:16
Like, you're a career artist, Ash. Straight the up. >> I hope I get to be. >> Who's stopping you? >> I don't know.
51:27
>> I can't make an album right now.
51:31
I can't make an album right now. I'm not allowed to.
51:36
>> I can't make an album right now.
51:39
>> Yeah, I don't like the sound of that.
51:40
>> Yeah, what's the reality?
51:40
because The Great Impersonator didn't perform that the way they thought it was going to.
51:46
And if I'm being honest with you, the album sold 100,000 copies first week.
51:50
That's a pretty big first week, especially for an artist who hasn't had a hit in a long time. >> Yeah.
51:54
>> The tour is the highest selling tour of my entire career. >> Yeah. >> That up.
51:59
>> They want manic numbers from me, >> right?
52:02
>> Everyone wants manic numbers from me.
52:02
I can't do that every single time.
52:04
It should be good enough that I do it once in a while.
52:08
>> It should be good enough, >> but it's not. It's not.
52:10
And what would be considered a success for most artists, a success story, a 100,000 albums first week in an era where we don't sell physical music, okay, with no radio hit, nothing.
52:27
But it's a failure in the eyes of, you know, uh, in the context of the kind of success that I've had previously.
52:35
And that's the hardest part, I think, of having been a pop star once is because I'm not one anymore, but I'm being compared to numbers and to other people that I don't consider lateral to me. >> You know what I mean?
52:50
>> Like, you know, a couple years ago, yeah, it was me and Ariana quote unquote fighting for number one on the Billboard chart. And we weren't fighting. We were texted. We loved it.
52:59
It was like the best time ever, that era, the without me, thank you, Next, Seven Rings. Like, that was amazing. It was an amazing time.
53:06
But if my record comes out and sells 100,000 copies first week with no radio play, no real support, and the comparison is, well, why isn't she doing Taylor Swift numbers? Are you kidding me?
53:20
I made an experimental concept album about how I almost died.
53:25
>> Yeah, >> I'm not going to do those numbers.
53:26
But I'm doing pretty damn good.
53:28
Those are strong numbers.
53:30
It's still in the top 10 of female artists first weeks.
53:35
but it's not good enough because it's not, you know, what the pop star I once was, even though I'm actively making the choice to not be.
53:41
And the problem is is that because I have such a dedicated fan base and I love them and God bless them cuz they're the only reason that I'm even able to make anything at all that I can sell that many copies of a experimental concept album about death. And they support me.
53:58
You know, the same hundred thousand people that bought Badlands first week are going to buy those records every time I put out an album.
54:07
Thank God and God bless them and put me in a position where if you actually compared me to the other types of artists who are making the type of music that I am making, I'm killing it. >> Yep.
54:23
>> But that's not what I'm up against.
54:23
And because of that, I'm at the bottom of a category that I'm not in anymore when I should be at the top of the category that I'm in now. >> And it's hard. >> I know. >> It's really hard.
54:44
>> I'm going to say, as much as I hate to hear you speak like that, I also kind of love it. You know why?
54:50
>> Well, because nobody's saying this. >> Not just that. Not just that.
54:51
Because I because I really think that like I think I think I think you're the one who like kicks this down the road and changes And I know it's hard.
55:01
I know it's heavy and I don't wish it upon you, but you are as God made you, mate.
55:05
And at the end of the day, you're going to make the art you're going to make.
55:08
>> I mean, by being subconsciously rebellious. I'm just yapping.
55:09
I'm going to find out later that I did something terrible right now. I didn't know.
55:12
I didn't come in here with a plan to say something shocking.
55:16
It just that's the truth.
55:18
You know, >> should I steno this All you said was, "I've made really great art that's performed above my expectations and I would like the opportunity to continue to do so."
55:26
That is all you have said. >> Yeah.
55:28
I just think that label I just think controversial about that.
55:31
And if you have a relationship, okay, this I'm going to give myself a job.
55:35
If you have a situation with your relationship who are business partners, >> Yeah.
55:40
>> that you don't feel is meeting your expectations, >> good oldfashioned communication, >> fashion. You know what?
55:46
What are we doing here, guys?
55:48
>> Cuz I want to keep working. >> Yeah. Should I go to work? >> No, for sure. >> Let me go to work.
55:51
And who knows what's going to come out.
55:52
I might even hit you with another one.
55:54
But I reserve the right to find out. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Fair. >> Yeah.
56:00
Also, I've always been very transparent, you know.
56:03
>> I think it's what makes you one of the many things that makes you really special.
56:06
And uh I'm really grateful that today I'm still sitting here and you're still sitting here. >> Thanks, man. >> We're alive. >> Yeah.
56:13
>> Your beautiful family. Yeah.
56:14
>> This album is a triumph on day one. It's a triumph today.
56:16
The tour is going to be amazing. I can't believe it, man. So crazy.
56:21
>> People are going to lose their >> Yeah.
56:23
>> Just take that energy that everyone's got for you and just push it forward into whatever you're doing. >> I am.
56:27
Also, at the end of the day, like one of the things I keep trying to remind myself, like, you know, postgrade impersonator and all the events of it.
56:35
This is something that was really important to me on the tour. Yeah.
56:38
>> Um over the summer >> is I've finally gotten to a place where I'm like, it's just not that serious.
56:45
It's just not that serious.
56:45
And that's why Badlands worked is because I needed to survive.
56:49
I did everything was riding on that album, but it just wasn't that serious.
56:52
I was making music with my friends.
56:54
I was like, you know, like getting drunk in Anony's bedroom, like recording vocals on the foot of his bed with his roommate, like, you know, just like messing around like rooftop in Brooklyn, playing demos to a bunch of strangers.
57:04
Didn't get like locked up, you know?
57:07
My demos are like locked up now.
57:08
Before I was like, "Hey, you want to hear my song?"
57:09
Just like playing stuff, talking.
57:11
And on the tour, I was like that, too.
57:12
was like, you know, they'd come in, they'd be like, "Oh, there's a rain delay or there's this.
57:16
The production's not working.
57:16
We have a problem with the guitar."
57:18
And I'd be like, "Whatever, man. It's a concert.
57:21
People come here to like drink a beer and watch the show and like, it's all right.
57:24
Everything's going to be okay."
57:25
And that's how I feel now, too, is like I do get hyped up when we're talking about this stuff where I'm like, "God damn it, I want to make music."
57:30
And I don't want to feel, >> you know, beholdened to past versions of myself or whatever else.
57:38
I want the freedom to evolve and the freedom to go when it sounds so intense.
57:41
But also, I'm sitting here with you.
57:43
Today was my son's first day of school. He's four.
57:45
He was so excited to go to prek. I have chemo tomorrow.
57:49
I'm starting a tour in a couple weeks.
57:52
My life is full of ups, downs, you know, just absolute uh tragedies and triumphs beyond my wildest comprehension.
58:04
And my job is just to bear witness to it and then write about it.
58:10
And that's all I have to do till the end of time. hell.
58:13
Are we Are we grateful to you for that fact? >> Thank you, >> Hoy. Love you. >> Love you.
58:19
Thanks for letting me come talk and about