like I say it all the time you know um that we should be comfortable with being vulnerable and I think I lost that for a second I kind of was like this a little bit like okay what do I you know how do I move how'd you feel when you finished that take oh my goodness it was the first take why am I not surprised sometimes you got to put yourself in a place where that where there's just zero analysis right
exactly and zero pressure and when you do one you think well I can do a thousand so it's almost it just takes the edge off it yeah I see how it is I think so I I feel like with that it was such an emotional experience for me yeah so it just happened it wasn't anything I had to like all right let me try to get this note I wasn't even planning on singing that hat I never sang that hair on a record before wow so that really
was you were caught up in it you just decided to go for it so in that microscopic detail right there of time because like you say you haven't got the notes right now in front of you there's no rehearsal going on here yeah you've got to make a snap decision in that moment I'm gonna go for it yeah can you describe that feeling or is it too difficult to put into words I can't really put it into words
um I mean the setup of the whole song like how everything kind of happened I really believe it was from God because it's just it's crazy like I had been through such a tough time in 2022 like it was a really difficult year an amazing year I did so much stuff yeah you were busy but it was it was a personal growth a lot of change yeah a lot a lot a lot of change a lot of personal change career all kinds of
change and it was very very hard for me I I was so unsure I'd never been so unsure and it was a great time I feel like I'm 18 Again like like I feel like where I was when I made volume one like yeah discovery mode which is great but with more tools yeah exactly exactly it's like the next step it's a very pivotal time in my life so um I actually was um speaking to Diane Warren about working together and I worked with her when I
was 14. what yeah years ago yeah very very briefly end up in the studio with her someone introduced me to her and she kept up with me since then and then I called her I was like would love to work with you and uh and this was like in the fall and then we made it happen and got in the studio and she was like I've been working on this song and she played me the chords for this song and immediately
I was like oh my gosh like how did you know this is like the type she's like I didn't I don't know I just feel like this song is meant for you and I put my thing on it and I produced it out and turned into this this moment but yeah I think it's sent from God oh there's so much to dive into there um I'm gonna I'm gonna touch on the thing that that um we've never really spoken about which is when you first came out
you know it was really important I think it felt to me as a fan of your music at the at the gate that whatever it occurred before was not where you stood in that moment it was like this is me now when I'm not gonna go down that road I'm gonna only gonna go forward yeah and we all respected that because the music was so compelling it was amazing it's the first time I've ever heard you refer to an experience
you had pre her yeah it's the first time we've ever even gone there yeah in relation to Diane Warren but my question is like are you starting to feel more comfortable acknowledging your journey to the point of becoming her absolutely I think um it was the beginning of her when I started to like I say it all the time you know um that we should be comfortable with being vulnerable and I think I lost that
for a second and I think it was the expectations of like people around me and I I kind of fell into that like okay the success is here like you have to maintain that you have to protect it you have to do what you did before but better this time and it's like you can't do that and it's like we try to formulate and box um Artistry and try to turn it into something and it's just it just has to be what it is and I think um I kind of
was like this a little bit like okay what do I you know how do I move and it was it I started to kind of like be in my head a lot and I've finally let go again it's crazy right like you you and you will again and again yeah yeah you don't care in the beginning you just do and then you work and and then suddenly you have to think about what you do and then it ruins it well also accolades uh
I mean even though obviously the constructs the our species created these items of value and share them with others to make ourselves ultimately feel better too like you're the best it makes me feel good to say that right so it's a strange thing trade that we have even though it's the truth but we we ignore the fact that every time we Heap one on you it gets heavier yeah it's like physical it does it does get really
heavy um but I know it's like a gold star and you just have to remember like okay the recognition is nice but it's not why I'm here and it's not why I do what I do and it doesn't Define what I do it doesn't make me a better or worse creative and it doesn't stop life from throwing change at you and making things tough too exactly right it's not like I'm her I can navigate all of this with ease it's like nah so okay this is one of
those moments where I'm going to leave it up to you to go as far as you want I but I am interested to know kind of what 2022 what parts of a 2022 inspired this song and and what you're willing to talk about so I was extremely busy I did two tours in a movie yeah and um there was so much of course like Award Show season and all this great stuff and it was so much fun you know all those moments but
I really had a moment of like wait wait wait wait what am I doing and who am I doing this yeah and why am I doing this my whys are changing it's crazy you know like obviously not the same person you are at 15 18 21 now 25 like um and I really started to question everything around me and I think I was an autopilot for a really long time so 2022 through the busyness like I still
was like what am I doing so uh you know I was on tour with Coldplay which totally like changed my whole perspective in music and life like 60 to 80 000 people a night it was just saying they carry themselves through it man it was insane and so much fun and I just was like oh my God the power that you feel in a stadium it's not an arena it's not a theater it's a stadium you know um that like changed my whole thing you
know and and I felt like I was exactly where I wanted to be you know um but just having those like those big stage moments and then kind of going back to the hotel and being a little isolated I really had to sit with myself and all these things that I might have suppressed and ignored you know I think everybody kind of dealt with this because of the pandemic yeah you know you finally start to acknowledge what
has been there under beneath the surface and it kind of comes out and you're like wait am I really happy do I like the person I'm becoming do I do I like the people around me you know and and what is what is my intention um and I had those moments and I wasn't sure I wasn't sure how to answer those questions you know that's tough knowledge to sit with yeah because if you don't have the answers immediately
but you've unlocked the truth yeah and it's simmers that's tough yeah because you only you can live with that until you have the courage and the decisiveness to make decisions exactly how long how long were you sort of in that space of of letting it you know just brood for you man I don't even know I think um there were so many things I knew but I kind of like excused or I kind of like oh well it's
supposed to be this way you know and I procrastinated on it yeah and I think a lot of people kind of made me feel as people do in this industry for some reason they kind of make the the artists feel a little powerless you know and a little bit um like their voice doesn't matter and that's crazy because they make you feel crazy yeah they make you feel crazy I can say it there's a sense of like yeah
you're the artist in this equation right so what do you truly know you just focus on the music focus on the creative everything else happened let everybody else deal with it and it's like wait a minute wait a minute I know a little bit Yeah and I've learned a lot more yeah exactly so um yeah I just realized how much I was allowing you know things around me to be weaponized and I didn't I didn't want that anymore so I I really
had to remember who I am and that I am worthy you know and that I'm enough and that yeah I just had to remind myself that and I'm now I'm like you know what I'm here I'm here but you know it was it was a it was a crazy year of having to go through all of those those questions and all of that doubt so I could stand strong today you know and know like this is exactly where I'm supposed to be this
is who I am now in this time and I'm so thankful that I went through all of that because I I grew so much because of it but um in the middle of being on tour and movies and all these things you know um it's such a blessing to to be here now well it's a lot of distractions that we create for ourselves and a lot of them are very good ones some of them are super self-destructive and not good but
some of them are really good like work we consider that ambition opportunity we're like why would I say no to this and it's like okay you can say yes to it yeah but understand make sure you're not avoiding something in the process right that's the trick exactly and I think you know I I'm very emotional person I always have been and that's why I create um and it's such an outlet for me studio has been like therapy for me lately so
I'm excited for you to hear everything but it's good to be in your feelings and then get up and be a g about it you know what I'm saying like that's been my whole so interesting like it doesn't surprise me hearing your music that that you that you now can um says to to everybody that you know a self-described emotional human being I feel things deeply yeah yeah I think when you first came out I hope you take this the right
way there was a sense of like I'm in charge I'm in control yeah things are going to be fine I'm I'm moving the parts around yeah so so as you're kind of like opening up and I'm hearing all these new observations which are wicked for me and everybody else like it's awesome to hear you acknowledge that that you feel things that that you do feel the emotion of life in a deep deep way absolutely I think I'm constantly
trying where I was constantly trying to control or figure out you know and that was just overcompensation and now um you know what I mean like it's just over conversation when everything is out of control you're like what can I control you know and and let me be perfect you know it's not real life so you know what's bad for the heart is good for the art like that's been my whole it's been my whole thing lately
um but yeah no I think in the beginning for sure I was like surrendering to a lot of what I felt and still trying to grab onto what I could and not letting people in and now I'm like you know what here I am yeah welcome back that's so good it's so good the music is incredible um it's called The Journey you know uh one time I was working in a second-hand vehicle store in the basement 15 second
story and um I was selling a lot of you know really cheap stuff to people and there was no windows in there and I was broke and I just moved to London it was a really tough time in my life it was also really exciting and I didn't know what I was going to do next and this really eccentric old man from Europe came up to me and he never uttered two words to me before but he was a regular and he looked at me he didn't know who I
was or where I was from and he said to me remember New Zealand it's the journey that matters not the arrival and then he left what somehow he knew I was from New Zealand even though we'd never spoken to each other and that's what he said to me it's the journey that matters not the arrival we had not had a discourse wow he obviously just looked at me and decided that that's what he was going to say
from somewhere inside his experience he shared that I've never forgotten it so the concept of the journey is a deep one for me wow that's crazy that's a crazy crazy story that's awesome don't you love those moments I love those moments yeah because what it makes me realize is I don't know anywhere near as much as I think I know exactly right I'm completely Nutley out of my depth like everybody else and isn't that kind of
the point of the journey um to push forward but ultimately realize that we have to relinquish control in order to eventually arrive anywhere yeah absolutely where does the lyrics come from for you you know when I heard a lot of the things being said I was like oh wow I mean it's so simple but you know saying things like every step you take is like one more step along the way like I had to also realize
and not be resentful of my journey because that's easy to do you know you look back and you feel better you feel upset you feel angry and it's like no all of those things are supposed to happen you know and they all contribute to the bigger picture everybody in your life is there for a reason at that time you know to get you from point A to point B and it's all about that process and enjoying the process you know and
you have a lot more fun and you don't take yourself so seriously and you don't take things personal when you can just enjoy the journey and enjoy the process and know like you know what I'm just gonna be in the moment Ah that's the trick that's life's biggest trick is trying to stay as prison as possible yeah and we talked about that in relation to the performance of this song I mean you know you're in a situation
where you're collaborating with Diane Warren um every song that Diane Warren decides to share or idea or lyrical idea or malady or chord is by Design trying to reach as many people as possible yeah right yeah all killer no filler yes that's right and so and so you know when you go in to into the experience like you say producing it up because you're a producer wanting to to live up to that to that um
ambition yeah how was that experience for you did it level you up your skills and push you 100 but the thing about this song is so crazy someone said this to me they were like listening to the song they're like wait this is like this is actually really you like this is kind of where I started you know because I'm big on live music you know like that's who I am um but with this like I just wanted to
get out of the way of the song like whatever is there like let's just get out of the way like don't don't try to you know yeah either it is what it is like let that shine yeah and like my thing was just creating the story and the dynamic and I worked with my band and I was kind of like all right we need this feel here you know this bass should do this line give it a little bit of flavor you know we don't
want to yeah so we we was we were listening to Brian Adams we were listening to Whitney we were listening listening to all my favorites Journey the things that go to number one for 30 weeks every one of those like every one of those songs was number one in New Zealand for like years but I mean the thing about it is like it's it's so simple you know when you take away all the bells and whistles in
music which we love you know um and you just sit down at a piano and it's just a song it's something that's for everyone but it's not though because look at this look I mean I'm gonna take this out and show you what this looks like so this is a graph of the song in a wave form it's like this it starts there yes and it has to get to there then it has to go down to there yes and then it has to get back
up to there there you go now now that is not how people make music mainly today it either goes all the way there yeah or it drops off a cliff yeah and then jumps up a bungee right but that's the journey the journey but you know just purely on a production and Arrangement level just to give you like kagashi yeah how hard it is make that graph oh my God because to get there in a gradual environment it requires an understanding of dynamic and
of emotional Dynamics Beyond volume I'm big on that and it's what I love it's what I love and it's it's part of the experience that I I had in this Stadium you know I was so inspired by that and um like I said just getting out of the way of the song and you know turning a simple song into that you're telling the story in the music as well as the lyrics yes you know what I mean and that was the goal and like one
of my favorite things about the song is the string arrangements and it was like something I do live that I've never done on records is sing all the string parts so I went in and sang each individual part and then I was like oh this sounds really good I listened to it just my vocal and just my vocal strings and then we brought the strings in and it just blew my mind emotional yeah I did and
everybody knows every artist who has the strings bring their Vision to life says it's like one of the most emotional experiences it was insane it was insane so yeah that's like my favorite thing about the song and you even hear how the strings get more intense as the song goes yeah my favorite thing about the song is you is the performance is the fact that you're able to live up to the um live up to the expectation of a very simple
human observation which is you know the journey we're all on you know it's really hard to put that into performance and um and to pull it off has it changed the way that you that you feel about writing and and communicating through your music every experience informs the next knowing you can hit that note knowing you can create that wave knowing that you can direct your band and do the strings and do all
the things which you knew you could do but to hear it come to life in a song which is worthy of any on Diane Warren's songbook yeah does it change the way you think about yourself oh um you know I think it gave me a little bit more permission to um just Bridge the the gap between like what you hear on like a her record versus what you see live you know and kind of bringing those two together but
it's not so much of a departure I'm not really saying like now that I've done this I want to make an album full of ballots like I'm more so like I'm happy that I can do this and I'm giving my permission myself permission to do this and I can come back and I can always go back and I'm just gonna keep creating yeah whatever the hell I feel and that's what you're gonna get because it could be anything yeah it could be anything it
could be anything so I mean at all I've heard Deep jam and Lewis flight time I've Heard reggae and dance hall I've heard you know Bill Withers ask type Funk folk I've heard this all you but I've but I've heard you move in these spaces with an authenticity which very few can thank you so how do you know what you want to do at any given time when all the palettes work that's the challenge right that's the challenge
so let's talk about that yeah that's the challenge but it's also really fun because I think I might just have to create a new name and new band and just release different projects under different things like who knows what I want to do next but isn't it everything it is yeah absolutely absolutely you know what I mean like it's like when I when I I guess I'm giving it to you from
the perspective of a fan at least for me when I listen to your music or I'm about to hear something new I like that I don't know where you stand right at that moment in time when you're making that yeah it's like it's to me it's part of the experience of what you're building and Prince never did that's true he went everywhere that's true and I love Prince same music good music is good music the song is
called The Journey um it's been really amazing diving into that experience and how the song came to exist I I don't know at this point how much you want to talk about where we go from here because you've been working you've been creating you've been writing I'm certainly not mining for details or headlines but I'd love to be able but I don't want to let you go yet so you know what can we talk about
in relation to what what comes next and I'll let you lead the charge you know um one thing that I really am excited about is uh the the amazing women that are killing the game like the collaborations that people haven't heard and that are happening and I don't want to give away any details but I will say like soon come like really dope female collaborations that's incredible and so let's talk about that for a second
because um you know I know you're a collaborative human I've seen you on stage at award shows on records you know you've done some incredibly meaningful things with other artists but I haven't really felt like you've unlocked a collaborative era I feel like you pick and chooses you go along yeah are you saying you that you that you're more open now than you've ever been before towards toward kind of like sharing your
identity with others absolutely and and what's crazy is I think that's just me in life I think I was on an island for a while and um yeah I just was on island and now that I'm I'm outside now we're outside we're we're you know just like I'm allowing people to to come into my world a little bit I'm I'm a lot more open just personally so I'm excited for the conversations and the relationships
that have been coming out of that and um I think it will show in the music will we get an album this year is that too bold to ask it's a little bold it's a little bold honestly we know each other though you're gonna get it when you get it you know I'm in the studio and this is the thing is like I've been forced to pay attention to these deadlines and all these I don't care about this stuff anymore like I just want to make music
and when I feel like it's ready it's gonna be ready and you'll get it yeah so what did you learn from Coldplay being on tour with them oh my gosh um they're really really nice guys um but just the the experience that they create with their show and how much fun that they have on stage I'm like I want to create that like even more so like yeah the way that they just bring the audience into their show and how they
can make a huge Stadium feel so intimate yeah it was so inspiring they give so much yeah you know a lot of times you go to a stadium show and you feel like you're really there to serve the performer yeah I feel like it did they go the other way absolutely which is a hard thing to do it's really challenging but you know they've got bangers man yeah so many bangers it's crazy it's ridiculous yeah they had um so they have
a catwalk right and uh there's like a mark to where I can go because they don't want to give away like the second stage you know by the time they go out yeah and uh every night I would just go further and further past that that little tape that they set out for me on the catwalk I was like I'm taking advantage of this whole this space gets me there and I'm gonna use it it's so funny when we get with the one laminate
right it's like where does this go where can I go and by the end of it you're basically behind Will's drunk exactly exactly so on stage I was I was taking that whole stage we were going left and right all the way out and it was like so much fun so um how are you as a human how's lifestyle how's balance oh balance is very tough but it's good I'm um I'm kind of in a selfish phase right now and I really like that
um yeah just like being like okay with being alone a lot and that's like really a healthy place to be I think people will take it a little personally sometimes but you gotta let them and that's kind of like how I've been feeling the real ones get it yeah exactly exactly I mean even the real ones sometimes have their moments because yeah you know change and growth but um so you know so so the the one
text becomes five ticks becomes ten ticks becomes the opening of Star Wars is that what it is you know you always know because there's someone in your friendship group I always feel I've got this one person who's the most patient with me out of anybody right that's good everyone has a hierarchy of patience levels that's true and if I get a text from that person going soon then I know all right you really need to
get out of your own head and get back into the into the into the into the world selfish is good though yeah selfish is good but yeah I think it's been good for for music and um yeah just discovery mode just like giving myself a second here and there which is good because I give a lot all the time and I did last year you know just like putting it all on stage and I've been like giving it back to myself a little bit
which has been really nice but balance is always hard because like I want to work I want to do the things I want to I don't want to say no you know but I'm a lot better with that now yeah you and era of no are you I do you feel good about that word yeah I feel better about it um I think it's easy to like for me sometimes it's easy to like overcompensate and just like be like okay no I can't do anything right after
like you know and it's good to just be like how do I feel about this do I really want to do this it's intention right yeah being very intentional getting back to that idea of um the whys yeah exactly and my whys are changing your eyes are changing so they're it's great you know what I mean I I've so much I want to ask you but I've I've learned over time as we're getting to know each other one conversation at a
time yeah that you always give us your time when you're ready so I respect your time no thank you so much and it's good to see you and this song is more than enough right now the song is like one of those moments that very few artists can release in 2023 um but you found a space to do it so thanks for gifting us it thank you thanks for a few minutes as always thank you for listening [Music]