Sam did you go down to the Breakthrough thing this weekend the Breakthrough prize was amazing it's like observing exotic animals in their natural habitat well a friend of mine who you hung out with down there called me last night to give me the breakdown on all the individuals he saw and what was going on with them I mean he's like I don't even know how Nat and I keep getting invited
to this but like to say we were outclass is an understatement the people at that thing were what is it break rewards the Breakthrough prize yeah yeah I couldn't make it I got invited to sh so incredible okay first of all shout out to Yuri and Julia it is incredible there were two moments where I cried this woman goes up on stage to give an award to the people that had made this
investment in cystic fibrosis yeah and she says my child was born with cystic fibrosis and then my second child was born with cystic fibrosis and then my second child died she said that I just burst into tears and then you present an award to the person that actually is helping them Stamp Out the disease we celebrated the people that found the gene that caused Parkinson's and then
yeah I mean the the people at that is pretty incredible it's in LA right they did it in Los Angeles yeah I mean like look Yuri Milner and Julia Milner Zuck and Priscilla Chan and Andi and so gabrian those six people are the ones that organize this breakthrough prize and I think it's just a modern version of the Nobel which tries to really shine a spotlight on people doing
really groundbreaking work in physics and math and life sciences and so you get people that have just done things that are just very practical and are very real and I think what they do is they make frankly these kinds of achievements much more high level in the sense that you're bringing together people from Hollywood and people from Silicon Valley and the awareness is up and it's just incredibly
well produced yeah it's really a cool thing to be a part of but I mean seeing some of these people are very intimidating I sat beside Vin Diesel oh really that was super cool he is a super nice guy and on the other side of me was someone that actually saxs knows Toby emerik who's U was the chairman of Warner Brothers so just talking to these guys was super cool
moving it to Los Angeles was a great movea yeah it's just I was invited I couldn't make it Sor and thank you to Julia and Yuri for inviting us again but it's really great that they're giving it the celebration it deserves and making it you know like dare I say sexy and cool and hip to be a scientist and solve the world's biggest problems I I think it's just so awesome and you're right
Sergey Bren Amo jaie Sak Priscilla and Julia and Yuri are the founders of the Breakthrough the craziest thing is they give a they give a youth breakthrough award so the Breakthrough prize is this beautiful globe and then the junior winner gets like a smaller version very appropriate and it was a video of this kid in India who had won it a few years ago and then
went off to MIT and then graduated and then the video is of him coming back to Bangalore because his sister had won it this year and he presented to the sister and all I could think of was this is an incredible achievement by like a 16-year-old and literally at the same time my 16-year-old was like Dad the chicken tenders from door Dash you get I can't find my chicken
fingers let your winners ride Rainman [Music] David we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you Queen Dad I said get me the spicy fries not the regular cinjun fries the girl that wanted freeberg did something with yamaka factors so it's like it's really incredible and inspiring but fortunately don't worry my my 16-year-old was able to get the chicken tenders and
everything was fun oh okay good yeah shut you called rerouted it I can't get his chicken tenders what do we do hilarious but by the way the other the other thing I'll say is the person that performed is really amazing Charlie peth and and the reason I say it is if you Google Charlie peth this guy he's a young guy in his early 20s I'm guessing he is so talented
there's all these videos of Charlie PE where he'll make a random noise like he'll clink a coke bottle with a fork and then he'll record it and then he'll put it into these digital editing tools and then he'll make like a entire five minute song using that as the base like as the basic building block the guy is so talented anyways it was a very it was a very cool event fantastic how are you
doing sax you okay buddy I'm good it's good start there it is folks we're back it's gonna be a hell of a show let's go I got to do don't waste time with your with your pointless banter it's why people T it in it's the banter they the banter bro how you doing free bir what you got a little uh scene from the movie Her wow we're off to a strong start here look at all these
contributions I got a shrug from freeberg I got a gr let's get started from Sachs I don't talk about my backg rats let's go anything good on the menu tonight shth I just want I'm coming over for poker I wanted to know if there's anything octopus oh so the Greek comes back and you get the octopus on you get the octopus I I think that Sean missed you he did by the way sea experimented
with with some Greek cheese that you grill that was pretty delicious that back chei a what's the plural of octopus is it octopi yeah aren't they like Cent creatures or something halumi yeah uh you know what it's interesting you bring that up I had a grilled octopus stand at one of our events and somebody who is um you know a conscientious consumer of
calories Lobby me to take the grilled octopus off of the menu I won't say who what what wait what I got lobbied very strongly not only is it deeply wrong to eat all the animals that you people eat and you will one day realize it or your children or your children's children will realize it but octopus in particular have the IQ of four to eighty olds they can actually sign they can
communicate they can solve problems uh you can watch YouTube videos on this it's pretty incredible they're amazing creatur it's also why in the movie The Arrival the future alien race is made out to be seops because they're the most advanced creature that's likely to become a civilized form if humans didn't exist I have a one-w reaction to that yum delici Del yummy it's the IQ that
makes it taste so good oh my God that's dark that's dark you're saying the IQ is like the spice yeah it's kind of like the fat content you know it's kind of like the marbling it's the marbling it's the marbling of it that's dark I don't know oh oh yeah by the way thanks guys yeah I'm fine yeah I'm great I'm feeling great yeah the tooth is healed I got the
Imp you look like you've been eating well just only things with above are you off the wovi or the what do you call it well no no you know what I did was I got off the wovi so I could eat more animals and now I'm getting back on because I feel I feel so terrible about how many I was in Austin I ate every let me ask question yeah go ahead if you eat high IQ foods does it make you
smarter absolutely absolutely this is why the Greeks invented so many things we invented math Plumbing cities democracy all the great things the Greeks created comes from the fact that we ate so many high IQ creatures correct are you able to be vegetarian were you able to find good vegetarian or veggie options in Austin who talking to me yeah I I mean I I see a vegetable I push it
away I'm like wait a second Jakel was on a seafood diet in Austin if he saw food he ate it J but it's not inaccurate the barbecue in Austin is so spectacular Terry Black's beef ribs I had with a friend of ours man they're just dynamite and then the Salt Lick brisket Franklin's brisk I mean it is just extraordinary shout out to all my barbecue folks there and sorry for
triggering every that wasn't button down J battered and barbecue sauce and that took out the rib was the Bison I'm sorry I was way apologies to the audience it took out a tooth you know as as far as I feel worth it what is a bison rib taste like is it taste like be man I it is it's the beef ribs are very tender the bison's got a little more chew to it it's a little more texture
yeah and and they let this thing go at the Salt Lick for like 12 hours and they're just barbecue sauce in it forever it's a little chewy and so that's what took out the tooth but great job freeberg on moderating episode was fantastic yes I I was chomping on the bit quite literally sacks to talk about some stuff chomping on the bit to the point I thought I shattered a tooth but I am back and I
have so much energy I missed you guys I actually missed y'all freeberg so much good stuff happening with the summit and uh I'm delighted that John is doing all this work you're doing all this work and I can just sit back and enjoy it so tell us is there an update on the summit yeah you're just collecting your coupon but uh yeah we had within 72 hours I think
we had more applications than we have seats but we are still leaving applications open and in the next week we'll start to respond to people so basically if you're interested in going to the summit sign up now get your applications in this week apply early yeah is the key yeah because it's going to be done in order of when it's received and they're going to start processing
applications this week we'd love to get everyone that wants to show up show up and if you went in the past your registration window is wrapped up this week so that's alumni automatically get in alumni automatically are in and then tell us about the scholarship because I'm getting bombarded and everybody who's an upand cominging all-in fan we're going to announce it in a couple
of weeks so no plan yet but there will be yeah we'll still do scholarships because I think they were super successful and helpful to people that otherwise couldn't afford the ticket I know it's expensive this year but the reason was we actually spent a lot more per person last year than people actually paid for their tickets so same it's less than 10 so yeah we're trying
to get the priced so that we can make um make this thing break even and we're gonna have scholarship tickets with the balance great so should be awesome I saw a couple speakers come in there's two not talking about it yet not talking about come on just can we just tell the two speakers who said yes come on the a not yet we do a big announ landed a big speaker and I think it's gonna be
awesome in a week in a week we'll announce a bunch together listen well one thing I don't want to wait on is today's docket because it is unbelievable welcome everybody to episode 175 that's right it's episode 175 of your favorite podcast and the largest and most listened to podcast in the world officially episode 175 of the all-in podcast starts right now and ah I
got so many feelings about this is that the largest most listen to podcast in the world I'm manifesting oh you're manifesting I'm manifesting shth just like just like is the world's greatest poker player and then we watch Robo roll over him is that a new word that narcissists use for lying manifesting no it's just like you know the world's greatest poker player and then we see
Phil helmuth get dominated by by C Jason just so you know tonight is a murderer row and helmuth is flying back you saw the lineup I'm very excited to see what happens tonight is J and coming or no yeah I mean and Robel and then the world's greatest helmuth playing is so great to watch it's like a meta ego battle no it is and those you know what's interesting two of those
three guys are like the most humble guys you would ever meet in your life am I correct in your life just you could you could not be more lowkey and self-effacing than Robel and for how good they are and and but if you were honestly going to rank the three of them in a in a high stakes cash game could you just hand it for the audience because we are in a we're in a lucky position you and I to play with these
three epic players in the world break down how they play in a home game you know like ours so I would say the most dynamic range would probably be Robel because Robel has the most experience playing super super high stakes cash I think is the most precise and like true to GTO hard to exploit I mean is impossible to exploit impossible doesn't no no mistakes no mistakes no mistakes
Robel knows how to gamble in certain spots knows how to be unexploitable and the third player is philam the third person is and hel just loses his mind it is so no the thing with helmuth is he's made he's capable unlike anyone I've ever seen a folding in spots that are and and he's correct by the way I've seen H fold Ace King in spots that none
of us would ever do it I've seen them fold Kings in spots that are basically impossible so Huth is able to get these Soul reads on people that I think are amazing yeah but look the the the higher and higher the stakes get the more and more I think Robel will be comfortable and and will just go to a Playbook that he knows and trusts H I am I'm so excited to be back at the
game tonight all right listen the docket is so great this week we got a great classic all-in docket I want to start with Google firing 28 employees who were involved in this protest at their offices we didn't think that this would happen we were having a discussion on the group chat on Tuesday about a dozen employees engaged in stins at the company's offices in Sunnyvale and New York City
protesting the conflict in the Middle East between between Israel and Palestine and so they took over literally took over the offices of the uh CEO of Google cloud and nine employees were arrested after refusing to leave the protest was organized by a group called No tech for apartheid and they posted a bunch of clips of this sit in on X those 28 employees were fired on
Wednesday after a quick investigation the VP of Global Security was pretty direct and candid me this is based they took over office spaces defaced our property and physically impeded the work of other googlers Behavior like this has no place in our workplace and we will not tolerate it if you're one of the few who are tempted to think we're going to overlook conduct that violates our
policies think again so what were the protests about Google is uh involved in a project Nimbus a $1.2 billion Cloud contract with Israel's government both Google and Amazon are involved in the project which was announced in 2021 Google has denied it was doing work for the military saying it was working with departments like Finance Healthcare Transportation there's a lot of details
to this but let's start with you freberg since you were a googler and we've been talking about the culture of Google putting aside what the protests were about how do you feel about protests in the workplace we've talked about it before here with coinbase and others and then is this a distinct change in tone that I'm hearing from Google that they've had enough of social activism at the
office I mean yeah there's obviously a line crossed in in the the view of security but I think you could look at this two ways you could look at this as being a culture of entitlement that let folks feel that our employees that they have permission to stage stins and behaviors like this because Google is so infinitely tolerant in giving employees the space and the room to do whatever
they want to do and all of their wishes and demands can be met and will be met if they demand it strongly enough that's one way to look at this and that that culture manifested this Behavior another way to look at it is that these people feel so deeply strongly and passionately about the issue at hand that they were willing to risk their jobs and arrest and they cared so deeply about an issue
that they think no one's paying enough attention to that they're willing to put themselves and sacrifice themselves for it so I I want to be empathetic to that point of view as well but I do think that there's a belief that there may have been this kind of entitlement culture where anytime Google employees ask for stuff they get it someone told me the other day how at tgfs at Google Now
where they do these all hands and people get to ask questions this person is kind of executive level they're so sick and tired of how every question is all about employees asking for more things that they want so it's like when are we going to get this bonus when are we going to get this gym when are we going to get this that's so much of the orientation
of being an employee at Google is all about what Google can do for me and how I can get more and that becomes what you ask for it's like you give a kid something you give them candy they always ask for candy and I think that there's certainly an element of that culture kind of being froed up over the years at Google but I do think that this is an issue that
people care very passionately about right now and you're seeing it all over the place so certainly not in the same week we had uh the Golden Gate Bridge get shut down the Bay Bridge get shut down as well shath your thoughts on these protests and then obviously the entitlement issues that freeberg alludes to specifically at alphabet gooogle they're two separate things and I think
it's important to deal with them individually groups of people in society in a democracy should have a right to protest that's absolutely fundamental and I think they can raise a lot of issues that could otherwise get swept into the carpet when that stuff impedes the public functioning of society for other people then I think there's a responsibility for law enforcement and
other people to act and make sure that that is better managed so shutting down an entire Bridge is not only disruptive it can be really dangerous of course and it can hurt your cause because then people people dislike the cause because it hurt them right typically what happens is you're supposed to file for a permit to protest and when you get that there are areas that are cordoned off
and then people allowed to express their views that's a really healthy form of democracy going rogue like this will only blow up in people's faces because the folks that are somewhat sympathetic will eventually get burned by this experience and turn against them so that's one set of issues I think that's just people going rogue and I think that you can't be tolerant of that kind of
chaos there should be organized protests but not disorganized chaos and law enforcement needs to get a control of that inside of a company I think this is different it's this weird thing that I see which is like what I would call like left-on-left violence it's like left leaning people creating all of these distractions and demonstrations inside of left leaning organizations for not
being left leaning enough and so it's kind of like a little bit nutty because I think it actually shows how totally naive these employees are and what basic business understanding they have the first and foremost being that they are at will employees these are not people that are contracted players in the NBA or are part of a union okay where you have
guaranteed employment through some mechanism or some arbitration process to even be let go the fact that you don't even understand that you are at will means that you are there because you want to be there and Google allows you to be there because they choose for you to be there and at any point if either of you break a covenant you can be gone that kind of stuff I think is very
distracting and it just belies a poor understanding of what you're there to do Google is a for-profit business and they are in the business of generating maximum profit on behalf of their shareholders they are also incentivized to do that in a way that achieves a mission and a set of values that the majority of their employees agree with and the fact that a small cohort of
people can try to hijack and sabotage that overall direction I think is very misguided saxs I I don't know if you have any opinions on this I didn't see anything in the docket I'm not sure if you have any strong feelings here but your thoughts on Google employees and the protest putting aside you know the the nature of the protest this could be for BLM this could be for Trump's
indictments you could you could be protesting any number of things but the protesting at work is is and then Google specifically which we talked about with the Gemini issues and you know this stuff bleeding over into product I think freeberg said it really nicely hey are are people actually focused on products at Google anymore or is the whole place just focused on
social issues that have nothing to do with their waning apparently product scent well I Google had no choice but to fire these employees they were being disruptive and they were trespassing and Google has the business to run so this is what any business would do and I don't think they deserve either credit or blame for taking the action they took in terms of the protesters themselves I think
that in the fullness of time we may come to think of them in a slightly different light and some of this reminds me a little bit of of Another War the protesters in another War the Vietnam War where they were very disruptive in some cases they trespassed in some cases they got arrested they were easy to make fun of in terms of what they look like they were sort of unkempt unshaven all
the rest of that stuff they were hippies and at the time people were I'd say very dismissive of them or actually antagonistic they were seen as giving Aid and comfort the enemy and they were sort of demonized but now in the fullness of time we look back on that war and realize that they had a point in fact maybe they were right in fact maybe their actions were Justified and I think
that how we view these protesters at Google can't just be judged now I think it's going to have to be judged in the fullness of time based on how we perceive this war in Gaza and I want to make two points about why I think this war will eventually be viewed as Israel's Vietnam the first is that in Gaza Israel faces a a gorilla style force and they're in a quagmire and if
you read the latest news that's coming out of Gaza what you'll hear is that after Israel has supposedly cleared an area like Gaza City or con Yunis they then move South Hamas has po back up again this whole idea that they can clear an area has been proven false it's like playing whacka they basically hit Hamas in one area Hamas disappears down the tunnels they come back in a different area and
this is why you're seeing a lot of Articles now in harat which is Israeli newspaper saying the war in Gaza is already lost you had the Wall Street Journal last week run an article saying that Israel is winning every battle but losing the war which is the again shades of Vietnam here and you got to understand the Wall Street Journal is the most pro-israel of all the major
mainstream Publications I don't think the W stre Journal has ever written a truly critical article about Israel and they describe this guacal Dynamic you also have the general Gotti eisenkop who's a a member of the war cabinet these member of of the sort of War government in Israel came out and said that we can degrade Hamas in Gaza but we cannot destroy it and he
said anyone who's telling you that we can destroy Hamas is telling you a tall tale and that was I think an appointed reference to netanyahu's claim that they would destroy Hamas and Gaza so you've got shades of Vietnam in terms of it being this unwinable War I think the second aspect of of a similarity to Vietnam is just the huge number of Civ I Ian casualties you recall that in
Vietnam the Viet Kong tried to grab us by the belt buckle they knew that America had Superior Firepower so they tried to get in close use ambushes booby traps snipers and in response to that the Americans used immense amounts of Firepower and bombing to try and subdue the Vietnamese and 3.4 million vietnames were killed in that war according to Robert mcnamer the second thing that happened
is the Rules of Engagement in Vietnam got extremely loose you took a bunch of scared American Kids many of whom were conscripts you drop them in a jungle pretty much because they feared ambushes they shot anything that moved and then finally I think partly to justify this you had a a dehumanization of the Vietnamese that they were seen as as somehow kind of subhuman in any event if
you watch movies about Vietnam like platoon which was made by Oliver Stone who was a GI in Vietnam or if you watch uh stainley Kubrick's Masterpiece Full Metal Jacket which was based on books about Vietnam you can see these Dynamics in play very vividly now turn to to Gaza all you got to do is look at the miles and miles of video to see it looks like
a lunar surface I mean even in the words of Joe Biden there's been indiscriminate bombing there in terms of the Rules of Engagement The Rules of Engagement have gotten very loose a week or two ago you had the desk of those seven Aid workers from the international kitchen or organization and there's an article in haret recently about the kill zones have been set up pretty much if you come
within a certain invisible perimeter of Israeli troops you can be shot I mean those are the rules of engagement and this is why there were three Israeli hostages who escaped and they were running towards Israeli troops and yelling in Hebrew and they still got shot and again this goes back to the Rules of Engagement being very loose and then the final piece of it is you do have this
dehumanization going on of the Palestinians you can see this in a lot of the have been posted by IDF soldiers so look I think that these protesters their actions are going to be judged in the fullness of time I think there are actually good reasons to believe that Israel's war in Gaza it's shades of Vietnam and I think that over the long term people may regard these protesters
in a different light right now they're just seeing as being disruptive and annoying and interfering but if this war ends up being Israel's Vietnam which I think it's on track to be again I think that people may in time give these protesters a little bit more credit J what do you think interesting question you know putting aside what they're protesting about I think they knew or
some number of them knew they were going to get fired so I think they're kind of resigning by sit in and I think yeah there could be nobility to that if you do not want to participate in supporting things in the world you do not have to work at Google and you can protest and you can get fired and we've seen like some pretty intense protests I I don't know if you
guys are aware of like what green peace and other environmentalists did to stop whing I'm sure you are aware freedberg was your passion on the subject those people went to jail in Japan for boarding Japanese whing ships like those are really intense protesters but then to your point shth you know you you can really hurt your cause clim act climate activists have been throwing paint on
works of art I don't know if you've seen that and and that's just infuriating like I I have no tolerance for people destroying works of art or attempting to get attention here it is benign to sit in an office and get fired so I I just consider it resigning by sit in if they want to do that that's fine I do think there is something to Google enabling all this to your point Friedberg over
time and and listen they were parodied on Silicon Valley the TV show because of how coddled and entitled people are so there's a a bunch of things going on at the same time and you know if you want to do these intense protests you have the right to do them and history will judge you o over time but you need to be able to pay the price in this case the
price is getting fired in the case of like shutting down the Golden Gate Bridge like you should get a fine for doing that I believe and the fine should be based on whatever that cost to shut that bridge down um and and that's got to be a serious fine and you're right Cham people if there's an emergency situation somebody's got to get to a hospital hospital or something that's
what I always think about when I see those things when you block streets and stuff or you block airports or you block these throughways there's a lot of just normal everyday people trying to live their life who are probably very sympathetic to what yeah what you stand for but when you disrupt their everyday lives Andor threaten their physical security they're not going to think that
that's worth it I'm also shocked that these people actually came to an office I mean these googlers I don't think they've actually been to an office before they probably check that their badges were you know to saak to Sax's point I actually would have had more respect for these people if they actually protested the war but they didn't do that they had a very discreet specific
claim which was that they wanted to dissolve a business deal that Google had to provide cloud services to the state of Israel called project Nimbus and I think that's such a discreet thing that it's hard to understand that those 28 people would have even enough knowledge of what that is but it sounds like a cloud hosting deal well what's hosted there and it could be any number of
things and I suspect if it's a billion dollar a year deal it's many things it's probably like the Israeli DMV is that really what you want and I think that it would have been much of a more powerful thing to do to protest the actual War if that's what they cared about you know duve tailes nicely with the discussion you all had last week about would you back a not a defensive but an offensive
weapon company a technology company and uh it seemed like you all had reservations on if you would not back a defensive one anybody I think reasonably would back a defensive you know Dome or interception of bombs coming in that's an easy one but going around the horn here how many of us would back a company making missiles or bombs that blow people up or mines would you back a
robot that had weapon systems on it I think if you want to summarize what we said last week it's like there are all kinds of businesses where you'll end up investing in it and over time as it morphs some of us will be faced with some of those decisions and it'll it'll frankly depend on what is the alternative in that moment so I don't think anybody of us are going into go and
build a nuclear bomb but you should not be naive that if you're building nuclear reactors you could end up being in a situation where that thing geted into into a that you either agree or disagree with so this is my point is I think that those kind of answers or those kinds of questions are missing the nuances and the nuances are very important so it's
impossible to answer this question in a thoughtful way I think would be my my honest answer okay saak any any closing thoughts here well I I think um chth brings up an interesting point about why didn't the protesters just focus on the war itself rather than Google doing business with Israel my interpretation of that is they're trying to create a Nexus to themselves meaning their employees of
Google they're trying to create a reason for them to Stage the Sittin at Google otherwise you know if they just grab picket signs and were on the street it would just be much less newsworthy so I think they were just trying to create something newsworthy here and it's kind of worked in the sense that we're talking about it other people are talking about it so that's my
interpretation of that is they were just trying to at the the issue in in a slightly novel way but look I think that they should be willing to pay the price of getting fired or getting arrested I mean if you're going to engage in that kind of Civil Disobedience or protest you should be willing to accept the price and I did see some comments by the googlers who got fired saying that they
thought they're being treated unfairly by Google I think that's the wrong attitude I think the attitude is hey this cause is so important to me that I'm willing to accept the price of being fired saying that you don't deserve to be fired for disrupting the workplace that is kind of an entitled attitude so I think they should have just said yeah we did this on purpose because yeah it's
PR say I'm proud to get I'm proud to get fired because that's how much I believe in it my stock options at right Google are less important than this issue to me yeah and I and I'm I'm accept it I think they would have gotten just as much press if they actually protested the War I think in a week from now everybody will forget what project Nimbus is the odds that it gets canel are less than
zero and everybody will move on and it will not add to the drum beat as sack said of people that may be eventually on the right side of this issue theoretically I say theoretically because it that's that that stone is still yet to be overturned on that topic so I think that they missed the mark and I think the the part of the press that people glommed on to was it
was happening inside of a company in real time and there was video of it mission accomplished for them we're talking about here as the top story and uh you know if that was there if they wanted to raise awareness they succeeded and they should just own their firing because they knew they would get fired I think all right there has been a ton of chaos and the culture wars continue over
NPR couple things happened simultaneously this week that are worth discussing Katherine Mah was named NPR's new CEO back in January I'm gonna have to give a little bit of a timeline here before I get comments from the boys because there's a little setup and so she was named the the um CEO back in January she officially started in March okay she formerly worked at
Wikipedia Foundation those are the people who run the Wikipedia obviously NPR's Mission if you don't know is to create a more informed public one challenged and invigorated by a deeper understanding and appreciation of events ideas and culture that's their state ad Mission from their website on April 9th Erie Berliner an editor who's been with NPR for 25 years wrote an oped for bar
bar Weiss's Free Press friend of the Pod explaining how NPR lost America's trust by going hard left and becoming close-minded he said quote an open-minded Spirit no longer exists within NPR and now predictably we don't have an audience that reflects America last Friday Mah put out a statement calling his actions profoundly disrespectful hurtful and demeaning this
Sunday uh conservative activist Christopher rufo he's uh the person who exposed former Harvard president's Claud and gay plagiarism he's a focal critic of lgbtq uh stuff at schools started reposting old tweets from Mah this new CEO her tweets are super far left Trump's a racist yada yada there's an interesting clip of her talking at Ted talking about
how truth is a bit of a distraction that prevents people from getting things done people have gotten pretty inflamed about that clip and then on April 16 Berlin was suspended for 5 days without pay wrapping this all up Berliner then resigned after 25 years saying quote I cannot work in a newsroom where I am disparaged by a new CEO whose divisive views confirm the very problems at NPR I
site in My Free Press essay Sach your thoughts I mean this just seems like a dog bites man Story I mean what is the novel Revelation here uh the person running NPR is a liberal I mean I'm I'm kind of with you but what took 25 years to resign I mean all you have to do is listen to NPR it's always been liberal okay this is not some recent capture of an insti why it going so crazy viral
right now why is this become the topic of the moment well apparently there are some quotes that this um new CEO Katherine Mar tweeted or said that you can point to that seem kind of woke and kind of crazy woke but they're just actually pretty standard I just don't see the breaking news here if they end up firing Katherine Mah they're going to hire someone just like her I mean they're
going to have the same views NPR has always been left of center and the only change that's happened is that the left has now become woe yeah and so it's become obsessively focused with the ideas of white supremacy and and and white privilege and she simply she simply reflects that I I agree I it's like a tempest and a like news flash NBR is woke and left leaning I mean I guess
maybe that somebody who was there for 25 years wrote the expose is interesting or I don't know jamat any thoughts on this one and why it's taking up so much heads space for people I don't think it is I think it's taking up a lot of headp space amongst breathless journalists I don't think it matters to the public at large I don't think anybody cares I said
one thing which is I do think that the government should not be funding this anymore I think NPR at this point is mostly funded by private donations but it got started with government money and the government still funds it and given that it is this left institution at this point and and really always has been there's simply no reason for the government to be funding one side of the
political debate that way so I think there is maybe an issue there in terms of reminding people that hey this is like government funded why and there's no reason why NPR can't be funded with either private donations or private subscription this is uh just to give people some back of the envelope math NPR's budget is like 320 million it's a dollar per American and they get
a bunch of programming fees and some corporate sponsorship the corporate sponsorship is like a 100 million bucks the programming fees is what the local radio stations play them net net this is costing like maybe I don't know 30 cents an American and if you just swap out and this is the way I like to look at these to be objective if you were saying this was funding Fox News or I don't know Ben
Shapiro and Del wire how would you feel about it you'd be like well why is the government funding that they should just cut NPR and all this public broadcasting stuff loose over the next year or two wind it down and let them fend for themselves in the New Media landscape look J I agree with you they could easily substack it NPR's not going to go away just create subscriptions and
you're fine yeah I mean it's only like they're down to whatever it's it's it's very hard to find the numbers there's a little like hiding of the money here but there's so little at stake here I think that's why it's so contentious no government should not be funding one-sided ideological institutions on either side of the political debate and you're right if this was funding going
to daily wire or something like that people would be up in arms so at any event what's good for the good for the gander the next Tempest in a teapot is Humane AI pin getting barbecued by our modernday W Mossberg Marquez brownley who is an awesome YouTuber I love his reviews and it's created a bit of a social media raw shck test here getting a lot of feels from people in
Silicon Valley let's just tee this up here Humane is a hardware startup uh that you may have heard of they make an AI powered wearable computer it's basically a pin you put on your chest it's about the size of a pack of cigarettes maybe half the size of it founded by two apple exec back in 2018 raised a quarter of a billion dollars or so and um the device is now in the hands
of reviewers it's pretty Innovative and Marquez talks about how Innovative it is in his review it will uh let you talk to it it's got a camera on it we'll show it here on the screen if you're not subscribed uh to the YouTube channel just go to YouTube right now and you'll see us playing the video of it search for Allin and um really interesting interface it does obviously voice it
connects you to an llm on the back end so if you want to know uh you know some piece of information it can answer those questions for you but Marquez showed it just absolutely failing at a bunch of tests being overpriced and he called it the worst product he's ever reviewed he's very thoughtful and methodical but the title is obviously a bit link baiting as a co-founder of Eng gagger I
can tell you if you want to get a lot of clicks just say something is the best or the worst ever and you're GNA get 10 times the views the pin uh according to him uh doesn't do anything better than a smartphone it's slow it doesn't work it's often wrong it's 00 bucks the battery sucks so many different ways to go with this everybody is talking about it on X and uh in the
media where where do you stand on this one freedberg both on how people are responding to it in the tech industry as being like anti-tech anti- Innovation versus hey it's just a reviewer giving his candid feedback on a product that's clearly not ready for prime time I think there's a lot of issues one is just the challenge of deep Tech more specifically
in this case Hardware investing you have to invest a lot of capital before you even have your first product and then you don't really know how well it works until you've already burned through a lot of capital I mean this is one of the stunning stories of a startup that has raised a quarter billion dollars and then they come out with their first product and it turns out it needs a lot
of work because it doesn't do anything that consumers really are compelled by as evidenced by the review so I think it it highlights that that challenge and why that market finds particularly in this environment it to be so hard to get capitalized now obviously there are some entrepreneurs like Elon who can take that capital and drive to the outcome spending hundreds of millions of dollars before you get
your first rocket into space and you have a lot of failings along the way but the general tone of here is a deep Tech investment is very likely to fail because you spend so much money before you even know and at that point you have less money and you can't really make the necessary iteration to get there so it's a tough data point for other deep tech companies that need to
raise a lot of capital then I think it brings up the point about X Apple people that there's a degree of confidence because people come from apple and a degree of hubris in the employees that come from Apple that says I have worked at the best hardware company in the world therefore this person is likely to succeed it turns out that when you don't have all that built-in infrastructure
for testing and optimization all of that built-in distribution all of the feedback systems that Apple has engineered into their business model for so long maybe you missed some of the data around what makes a product great or not before you launch I think that's your key point freeberg that is the best point is these folks come from Apple they're used to unlimited
resources and what you don't see is all the product Apple doesn't release right they never release their car correct freedberg and and they get to well I think I think then there's also this question about like where is the value in the product because they thought hey if we have ai on a pin it'll work without the consumer feedback about whether or not people are willing to sit
around and wait for 12 seconds to get an answer to a question and then it it brings up the risk this other really important point which is half the people in Silicon Valley are running breathlessly into the conversation saying do not disparage a startup that's working really hard at getting their first product right it'll destroy the motivation of other startups that need
to kind of iterate to get there um and we can't just take the first V1 and say that's it Jam your thoughts you're laughing hysterical at this then the the other half of Silicon Valley are running in and saying this thing's a piece of what are you talking about it doesn't work so it is a really interesting kind of you know debate yeah Ro shock test on what's going on what do
you see in this ink blot of a product neither of those two cohorts I think that incredibly motivated dedicated entrepreneurs don't even know that this is happening and don't care got it in other words the reviewers uh are going to review products and you just got to plow ahead and make a better product the idea that in 2009 10 or 11 right that when all the Rockets weren't
working you know and Elon was back against the wall that he was reading Tech crunch or yeah getting upset because a product failed some other random product that had nothing to do with his I think is laughable I think no great entrepreneur cares I don't think freeberg is g to change what's happening at oh Hollow based on what is this thing called Humane right freeberg have you
changed have you made decisions are you sadder today in ohala when you walked into the office to manage your team okay so there you go there's your answer matters your feeling on this yeah I mean I'm having a hard understanding all the controversies this week I mean reviewers are going to review protesters are going to protest and NPR presidents are going to NPR here we go yeah what's going on
everyone's just doing everyone's doing their job yeah here's an idea for the Humane team be thankful somebody took the time to review your product and give you candid feedback and incorporate it back into your product and make it work and irreverent elitists will eat octopus here we are absolutely oh so delicious so delicious high IQ Foods we create a new category high IQ Foods yeah what are
the other high IQ foodsweet acorn fed beef yes for sure high IQ pigs very high IQ I saw that cow playing chess before he was served for dinner actually I was having a p pork sandwich from bies and uh it helped me solve Wordle for the day before I ate it so I got Wordle in two tries oh I'm so sorry that one landed want that wi to land yeah I mean okay let me ask this
question do we think the world let's say this thing did respond here's the theme here's the theme Jason here's the theme Jason the problem is that I think people right now the real Roar Shack test is if you are so easily distracted you probably don't have enough to do right that's the entitlement is that you don't have enough work on I don't want to call
it I don't want to call it entitlement but I think the reality is that if you get caught up in all of these silly little fake battles or decisions I think what it really means is that you're not busy enough and or you're not working on something that matters enough to you because when either of those two things are true people tend to be tend to have blinders on and they are super focused
and they just don't have an opinion they don't care like honestly many of these topics today I really don't care and it's not because I'm better or worse or smarter or Dumber it's because I'm so overworked right now I don't have time to have an opinion on this stuff got a CEO job and now he's got to work no but and I think that anybody else trying to
do their job well is probably in the same category H I hadn't even heard of this reviewer what's his name mar mar mar Marquez brownz Brown I never heard if you're on YouTube he's kind of like the new Walt Mossberg he he does 20 30 minute videos they get millions of views he's huge I don't know that he makes or breaks a product though by the way he does not make or break a product the
product makes or breaks itself yeah look when when I was running companies I wouldn't care about what One reviewer said I would care about the totality of the reaction to the product which would include customers as well as reviewers and so forth so I don't think there's any point getting too bad out of shape out one review I think what's kind of happening in terms of the reaction here
is that people want to give this company like Mercy points for being Innovative so my guess is the product just isn't ready for prime time but everyone wants to kind of like they want their reviewers to take it easy on them or something because they are being Innovative and they're breaking new ground in this this area of wearables but the reality is in the real world
where you want to charge people for your product like customers don't have mercy points nope so if the car breaks down the car breaks down and by the way Marquez got a little bit of heat just a month ago because he reviewed the Fisker the Fisker is just a piece of garbage car and he said it's the worst car he's ever reviewed and you know what reviewers exist in the world to inform
customers about what products and services they should buy and then they should inform you to make a better product period full stop there is an easy solution to this by the way which Apple did they they released the Vision Pro as a developer kit they put a bunch of caveats on it and said hey we understand this is high priced it's a developer kit this is in beta what
Humane should have done is they should have said this is the Humane beta for developers I still don't know what it is what what is this okay it's a wearable it's a square it has a projector on it you put your hand out it projects a little screen that shows you uh like a computer screen and you can talk to it Prim yeah the primary function is like a chat AI assistant that sits on you and
has a camera yeah and so you can it's taping everything that it sees it doesn't do that by default but it could but sorry let me let me just give a quick overview and basically you ask it questions and it can go get the answers the problem is is that it has to go make a request to the Internet run an AI model and come back so it takes like 12 seconds to get results most of the time
according to the reviewer the results are actually wrong because it's hallucinating models The Voice to Text translation is wrong there's a lot of things that are wrong about it so it takes a long time it's clunky and then the battery burns out every two hours and it gets super hot because of the way they get it to magnetically stick to your clothes so it gets very hot so
there's all sort of issue and it's 700 bucks other than that how was to play Mrs Lincoln and by the way most importantly to you chth it will screw up your Fabrics if you wear this with a Laura Piana sweater it's going to drag your sweater down you would never attach it to a $6,000 sweater yeah it's basically what you're telling me is it's an overpriced device
that could give you first-degree Burns and it will ruin your it doesn't answer the questions that you ask Bas but then do I think the questions or do I have to say it out loud so it looks like I'm talking to myself you look like aun yes you're walking around like a crazy person talking that was the other thing he said is like when you're in a crowd and there's voice around you can use
your hand hand gestures to control it and do things with the projector thing that it does some really it's some really cool interesting features it's just like it's not quite there yet who invested in it let's not make fun of it let's make fun of the investors who who invested Sam mman shout out to Sam's coming on the program I think uh yeah I listen I I the concept I
think is good wearables are going to provide some distinct value when they work because you don't have to take your phone out and so the idea behind wearables like your watch is you know like there are some things I do on my watch now where I don't take my phone out I have I'll take the other side of this I'll take the other side when you're done yeah yeah I use Fitbit
company we invested in and it puts all my workouts on my watch when I'm doing weights I started doing weights now that's why I look so buff folks subscribe to the YouTube channel to see and I do my sets and I log them all with my my watch I don't have to take my out that's like the first thing and then when I'm skiing I can see each run I showed you slopes I'm not an investor in
chth where I can see my speed and all that you're saying something totally different that's that's utility of course you'll find a device will give you utility I I thought you were saying something else which is everybody's going to have wearables and I want to take the exact opposite side yeah I don't know that everybody will have wearables but I do find a couple of
little things that work for me I totally get that you know the use of an accelerometer or whatever in a watch or in a band that you wear on your wrist for a workout and I think that that's valuable or heart rate a glycemic monitor so that you could all of that stuff Mak super sense for you as an individual but that's not an experience where you're engaging with it to sub like to replace some other social
interaction that's just you getting utility as you live your life what I'm saying is the idea that you start to rely on a device as your interface into the world I would take the exact other side of the BET which is I think that humans are getting so sick and tired of being of only communicating in these very rigid ways like I'm telling you like if you look at our children's
generation they don't know how to make eye contact they don't know how to talk and I think it's going to come back and bite them in the ass and so I think the pendulum is going to swing in the other direction where it's like okay enough of this stuff let's actually look each other in the eye and talk to each other the way that humans were meant to be and
I and I think that in that devices like a glucose monitor or a band has value but I don't think it's going to be this interface where you're sign languaging it while you're at Coachella I think you're gonna rip the devices off and actually be a Coachella without any devices did any of you guys read Jonathan haes book anxious generation it is unbelievably awesome it touches not
right yet yet I stop what you're doing and just listen to the audio book on your walks on Audible this book is super important and awesome the anxious Generation by Jonathan ha I cannot tell you how important it is saxs any closing feelings here you have a take any hot takes well I I would slightly disagree with you guys about this device so so first of all I think that humans are
becoming more and more cybernetic we're getting more and more immersed with computing power and I agree it creates this anxiety and all these problems but on the other hand I think it's an irreversible Trend so I think that I would not bet against things that make us more cybernetic I think the problem here is that this company is trying to do two difficult things the first thing
is it's trying to capture everything that's happening in the world around you to feed it into an AI model so it can make you smarter the other thing is trying to do is reduce your dependence on your phone by creating this new projection surface and you know in my experience when you try to do two hard things you actually Square the complexity and you square the difficulty
as opposed to adding it yes so I think of these two things the one that sounds interesting to me is taking in all the information from the physical world and putting in an AI model that can be helpful to you you but I see no reason to replace the phone I think it should just work with your phone the problem they're going to have is that that pendant will compete with the Apple
glasses and all the other wearables that are going to be created to you know suck in all this information this computer vision from the world nonetheless I do think that is the opportunity it's not replacing the phone it's layering a new platform on top of the phone that can kind of you know again give you that Terminator mode in the real world and that was a complaint about this device
specifically was that it was detached from the phone I understand why they want to make it Standalone but and then this opens up all the Privacy let me ask the panel here what do you think about this concept of recording the entire world all these conversations and video with these devices I think it's a quick way to get yourself punched in the face I mean we saw that with Google Glass
people showed up at bars in San Francisco and parties with these Google Glass things on and literally got punched in the face well this has got massive privacy things recording with a pant thank this is why I said what I said I do think sax is right that ultimately you'll have some kind of brain interface because I do think a chip implant of some kind is very
valuable but what I'm also saying is that I think that that will actually lessen the social acceptability of these visible devices that are constantly getting in between you and another person and so the idea that we're kind of already in a quasy surveillance State and now we're going to increase that by n factorial to the number of people I think is very depressing it is
depressing and you know what in Jonathan hates book he uh talks about phone lockers for schools and the transformative power they have had when you go to a school there are some schools now high schools where the students put their phones in specific lockers they do it they do it in my kids it's it's actually Jason these special pouches pouches yeah those are the
pouches comedians use like Chappelle at his shows Chappelle use it Kevin uses them yeah exactly and they're great and then what what the school now also teaches the kids at least our school which I found really interesting is the graduated form of that is they actually now allow you to put it in a envelope because they're training the kid like the pouch you can't get access
to you have to go back to it locks unlock device yeah and then I I saw that my son last week had it actually in a in a white envelope and he had to close the envelope and just keep it with him as as like a way of graduating from the form of keeping the phone away to like you know having it in your pocket so the schools are trying to do a lot to try to teach these kids not to be so dependent
on they should ban these devices at schools 100% And then at the poker game tonight we should make people stack their phones and charge somebody a thousand dollar whoever takes the phone first I AG with that let's do it tonight let me let me give a a shout out to one of my favorite sci-fi book series is called Nexus by romez Nom and it's kind of this like
cyberpunk futuristic series but what he talks about is it when we have this brain computer interface you'll be able to upload your memories and so you know you talk about this idea of recording your whole life through a pendant well eventually You' be able to record your whole life based on just through your eyeballs and you know you'd be able to upload in theory a firstperson view of
whatever conversation you've been in you know and so there's a certain you look this is pretty far off but there is maybe a certain inevitability to that and um we're going to have to figure out how to deal with the Privacy implications Black Mirror episode on this exact idea yep yeah you have the DVR of your entire life yeah and it is gnarly to think these things will exist
and I think humanity is going to have to make a decision I think to fight this or embrace it I I think we should fight it I think it's going to ruin uh like social and existence and it's already ruined poker Games Etc when everybody's on their phone it's ruined dinner parties when everybody's on their phones the constant distraction is just horrific and it's having a horrible
impact on this generation I'll double down on what you're saying it is so lovely to be ble to have a dinner where everybody just talks to each other and looks each other in the eyes yes and then when you have a handful of people always on their phone it's depressing it's actually it's actually not even neutral it's a net negative and a drag on the entire night absolutely I I I am
trying to come up with ways to remove these devices from the social settings I'm in I've been to a couple of parties with high-profile people where they have everybody check their phones at the Valle and the door I got to say those are the best nights of my life those are the best nights yeah they're incredible and you know no offense to people who are addicted to their phones I I am to a
certain extent I put my social media at 1 hour on my phone my Lord it is hard to do less than an hour of social media in our job positions and you know I deleted Tik Tok about a month ago it's been liberating I was a slave to that app I couldn't believe how much how much Tik Tok I was consuming after it was gone because I couldn't I couldn't find anything to replace it and
then I stumbled into the fact that YouTube has YouTube shorts and there is a lot of that content but it's terrible and the algorithm is really bad yeah sucks and so fortunately I just stopped using YouTube it just shows you how the algorithm is such a key component of that Tik Tock experience because I had the same experience shorts serves up garbage garbage Instagram show serves up
garbage and then Tik Tok is just like right into your brain kicks ass it kicks ass by the way I'm G give another shout I miss Tik Tok Tik Tok I miss you yeah whatever it's that's going away I miss you another Incredible Book I think we should book this speaker for Allin Summit bad therapy why the kids aren't growing up Abigail shrier this book is
incredible and if you read these two book every parent read these two books and we need to have a conversation on it as parents here everybody read these two books these two these are my two top choices for the all in Summit I think it's like the going to be the the topic of our time all right let's keep going down this incredible pocket very important issue for us to talk about
Silicon Valley startups having a bit of a R&D tax problem thanks for putting it on the docket here freeberg it's a bit inside baseball but very important topic let's say company like acne Corporation generated a million bucks in revenue and they spent a million bucks on their software developers last year let's say they had I don't know five developers getting paid 200 Grand each well
traditionally this company would pay nothing in income tax right they spent a million they deduct that million from the million dollars in Revenue that came in and everything's good but due to the tax cuts and jobs Act of 2017 starting last year a provision kicked in forcing companies to advertise their R&D expense over five years so in this hypothetical situation the Acme
Corporation would advertise 200k a year and pay income tax on the 800k in profits this is brutal obviously St quotes profits air quotes air quotes profits correct yeah uh and this is absolutely brutal and a lot of companies took a wency approaches hoping Congress would fix the issue in January a bipartisan tax bill that would reverse his changes passed in the house but the bill has
stalled in the Senate and we got to get this thing fixed because it's going to sync a lot of startups maybe people will start putting their companies in other countries but uh it's attached to this child tax credit which Republicans don't want to pass so of no reversal has happened freeberg you highlighted this for us very important topic thank you for doing so as uh our great
contributor here what are your thoughts on it this became law in the 2017 jobs act as you highlighted and basically it means that companies not just like tech companies but life sciences companies defense companies are pushing Congress to change this law because you can't actually deduct the expenses that you use to run your business you have to only deduct them over five years 20% a year so like
you pointed out if you're making a a million dollars but you're spending a million dollars you made no profit but you got to pay taxes as if you made 800 Grand in profit and a lot of these small companies don't have that cash so Venture Capital back companies and public companies that are profitable they can afford to do this because they have large balance sheets so it doesn't
affect them as much as it does the literally hundreds of thousands of small businesses that work in the Life Sciences sector the defense sector the tech sector that are struggling this year to make the tax payments that are required under this this law that went into effect last year and Congress promised that they were going to repeal this law leading up to April 15th which happened
obviously a few days ago um and make it retroactive to 2023 but they didn't but freeberg they know basic math Congress knows basic math how do they how do they what do they yeah so the the original intent was that this was one of the ways you guys know whenever you pass a bill it gets run through the OM and the CBO that figures out what's the budgetary cost of
the bill yeah and one of the ways that they made this work this bill the 2017 Trump tax and jobs act you guys may remember in that bill they also made it impossible to deduct entertainment and dining expenses when you take people out to dinner anymore that sucks and they did all those things to make up some of the money they were using for basic general tax breaks for companies so they
Ed this as a way to say like look in a couple of years we're going to kick in this R&D expenditure thing and it'll trigger a lot more revenue for the federal government it'll create a lot more taxes and a lot more Revenue so that was the idea and everyone was like yeah okay sure we'll do that great it makes the accounting work and then in a couple years you know nudge nudge wink
wink we're going to come back and repeal it except Congress has stalled out there's this ineptitude where anytime someone tries to pass a bill in Congress someone else says I want to get money and so the Democrats showed up and said we want this child tax credit thing to show up which basically was passed during Co and they want to extend it going for and the
child tax credit says that you can get a check for 1,800 a year in 2023 1900 in 2024 and $2,000 in 2025 for having for each child you have and the Republicans in the Senate are saying wait a second for people to get this thing we want to make sure they're working we want to make sure it's not as retroactive so now there's this big debate about how big the child tax credit should be and
that's keeping this R&D thing from going through and meanwhile I've gotten tons of emails from CEOs of tech companies that are breaking these are not tech companies that are making a ton of profit they're not public they're not Venture backed they're just people running running their their business and now they're gonna have this huge tax bill even though they didn't make any
money this year and it's crippling businesses around the country and need they're going to write a check they're going to borrow money they're going to go to the bank borrow money or they're going to incur penalties with the IRS because they don't have the cash to pay the the tax bill because they don't have any profit they didn't make any money if they just ran the business
Break Even which a lot of these companies do is just make a little bit of money break even and then they've got this huge tax bill and profits they didn't actually have they got to go figure out how to write a check and also how do you define R&D I was talking to an accountant he's like yeah I don't know if that's R&D I'm like you don't know it's R&D like okay so if I make
some piece of software yeah yeah there's all this writing in the um if you get audited by the IRS they have the ability to basically capture everything so like let's say you're a mobile app developer and you make a million dollars a year but you spend a million dollars a year on your developers okay they're going to count that they have the the ability to count that as an R&D so that the
accountants the tax accountants tell you book it all as R&D because otherwise you could get audited and actually get in trouble because anything that involves the development of Technology now is considered R&D again a company working in life sciences as a research company doing lab work can but I do bug fixes is a bug fix R&D if I make a new feature in application this year does it have to be
advertised over five years if I put a new filter I'm not a tax my understanding is most of the stuff is getting captured and that's why it's hurting everything from defense to to to Life Sciences to lab equipment to startups that software to everything and Congress can't get out of its own way where this this bill passed by the way bipartisan in the house then it went to
the Senate and now it's getting taken apart in the Senate and now it's stalled out and everyone's freaking out that it's stalled out past April 15th and it's actually going to hurt a lot of small businesses in this country and here's the other problem is it actually limits our ability to invest in innovation in this country because now you're better off there's no other
country in the world that does this every other country in the world tries to incentivize investment in Innovation and here in the US we're basically saying no we're going to tax you for investing in technology development and Innovation and the other thing that's that's actually not being talked about is even in this bill where they're repealing this they're leaving in the
fact that if you invest in R&D outside the US you have to amortise it over 50 years so let's say that you're a US developer and you hire people offshore yeah you got to basically amortise the offshore stuff over 15 years which means you'll never make a profit you're always gonna have to pay taxes how we're trying to kill innovation in this country and
the two things they got to solve is this one and then m&a we got to have a better solution for allowing companies to be bought and sold in this or or merge in this country these two things are putting a lot of headwind on the startup ecosystem and on the Venture and the risk-taking capital ecosystems if you're in Washington DC you're involved in our government please solve these two issues
you got to figure out a way to allow companies to be bought and sold you got to figure out away to to fix this tax issue or else we're going to kill a lot of startups and these are the companies that pay a lot of taxes and these are the capital gains that fund a lot of state's treasuries it's also it also an illustration of just how hungry we are for tax revenue in this country you know
it's only going to grow and I'm not sitting here complaining about taxes you know the Trump tax cut that he put in place in 2017 added one and a half trillion dollars to the federal deficit so tax cuts in general are not great when you're spending a lot but it does highlight just how much we are spending at the federal level and the demand for tax revenue and that demand causes this
counter cyclical problem which is now we're going to eat into Innovation which is supposed to drive get us out of the problem the spiral that that results from this debt so it really highlights like just the challenges that are going to emerge particularly in the decade ahead because we have all of the spending that's coming in front of us over the next decade and how we're going
to start to demand more and more tax in all these weird ways that can really hurt industry unintended consequences are very real shath you were gonna say something well doesn't it mean though that if you run it at break even and without a lot of growth by year five you'll be back to where you were so you really have to cover the taxes in years one through
four that's right if the business but if the business is growing you're always going to be in a hole right right so if your revenue is growing and your Opex is growing you're always going to be in a hole I think Jason mentioned it earlier and I think it's the key thing which is what is R&D then yeah and maybe you just move things to cogs and just be done with it I remember businesses and and you guys
know this like when you look at a public company's financials what you're seeing is their Gap financials generally accepted accounting principles and that's the way that you present the financials of a business that's different than the way you present financials to the IRS you don't have a lot of discretion in your tax financials your tax financials are actually quite
different than your Gap financials yes so when you file your taxes there's a lot of rules on what you are allowed to deduct and aren't allow to deduct that's quite different than how you present your corporate financials to investors and that's really where people get screwed is you don't have that sort of discretion that you do in kind of sharing your financials with investors
so this is not Financial or accounting advice get great representation I just hope Congress resolves this because it's you know yes super important all right sports betting has gone mainstream if you don't know two out of three College have placed a bet in the last year since the Supreme Court struck down the amateur sports protection act 38 states have legalize sports betting I think
that's a great thing but we're starting to see some weird Behavior because of it t of sites like DraftKings FanDuel ESPN bet b MGM all of these have broken out but this week we started to see some weird Behavior the NBA banned a 24y old player jonte Porter for life after a scandal this one is bizarre an interesting Porter was Bench player for the Toronto Raptors averaging about 14
minutes per game it's important on these gambling apps you can do all kinds of prop bets for those of you who don't know prop bets could be things like like uh Steph is going to hit five threes in a game or LeBron's going to score under 30 points you're just betting on unique things that could happen and then you can parlay them together you can put multiple bets together and it
automatically gives you a price and you can do really you know deep Wagers doing this the NBA found out that Porto was telling people to bet his unders for points and rebounds During certain games during those games he'd play a few minutes then check him out s out of the game Within illness quote unquote technically the bet would still count since he played the game but everybody
who bet his unders would win normally nobody would notice this of course because he doesn't play that much he's a bench player but DraftKings because they have all the data tipped everyone off because Porter was the biggest money maker on March 20th this led to an NBA investigation Draft Kings will give you a leaderboard of the biggest bets and they saw that
somebody placed an $80,000 bet that Porter would hit the on a bunch of different categories crazy outlier bet DraftKings canceled the bet the NBA found that Porter separately placed dozens of bets on NBA games using his friends accounts winning a whopping $222,000 and this idiot now is banned for life from the NBA allegedly allegedly allegedly but obviously the NBA has the receipts with DraftKings
chath you owned a NBA team for a little while and you watched as David for aade you watch as David Stern who was absolutely opposed to gambling and then Adam Sil embraced it tell us from your front row seat your thoughts on wagering in the NBA and wagering RIT large okay look I remember when I joined the ownership group of the Warriors I had to file this enormous
document and one of the things that they really into is whether you've bet before and they make it really really clear that it is completely not allowed to bet and the only way that you can bet is if you're betting on non-basketball and if you are in Vegas and you go to a casino and a troop sports book that's the only time it's tolerated the thing with all of these sites FanDuel and
DraftKings is they did deals with the leagues where part of the feature is that when there really crazy asymmetric betting on something that's obscure they report it back to the leagues so the leagues know how to look at it because typically what happens is if you're talking like a very well-contested basketball Jason you have a relatively balanced book right and what the the
goal is is to figure out where are the sharps betting meaning the really smart money guys and everybody else is a square and most of retail is a square okay they're going to lose their money and so the goal is to always find out where the sharps are going but there are some of these bets and in this case this is why they found out when you have
something being bet that's very obscure in size these apps immediately go back to the league and say this just happened so compare that to chth what would happen previously before sports betting was legal in the US before what would happen is like all of these bookies would be able to have relationships with some of these players sometimes they would also have relationships with some
of the refs and it has SP over so the NBA has had to deal with an example where one of the refs were I think he was betting on some games Don Tim Don and then he was Point shaving so this has been going on for a long time it moved into the realm of it being automated with algorithms looking out the fact that this kid didn't have anybody on his team that explained that
DraftKings and FanDuel are going to send this data to the NBA is inexcusable because maybe the kid would not have done it right do you agree with the lifetime ban or do you think there should be yeah yeah it has to be lifetime has to be for the NBA to have integrity has yeah yeah it's really uh and and what do we think about this becoming legal in the US and people the other thing I'll say well the other
thing I'll say and I and I mentioned this a few weeks ago everything is being gamified you have an entire population that seemingly in America consumer spending still goes up folks are relatively still flush with cash there's lots of free cash flow there are new and more aggressive forms of stimulus constantly coming down the pike whether it's student loan forgiveness or
something else right governments are inventing new and new ways of buying votes that's going to put more and more money in people's hands that means a larger and larger percentage of it will bleed into these kinds of things and it's not just Sports gambling there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about this woman who's a well-respected lawyer who became totally addicted
playing like a bingo app right and lost her entire life so these forms of gambling and addiction are just going to Skyrocket I think because you have these apps that are really incredibly well- engineered to get you super hooked and then the adrenaline rush and the dopamine Rush of actually winning money is a thing that for some people they can't turn off once they feel it for the
first time we know some of those people and you know it's it's hard for them to control their sports betting Blackjack playing other things they just they get too into it they get too into it they get just and you know but other societies other GEOS Australia New Zealand and the UK they've had this for a while so they figured out how to deal with this this is what I'm going to tell
you the last thing I'll say on this is when I was in high school so in the early 90s in Ontario in Canada they introduced sports betting as a way of generating revenue for the government what I will tell you is that my entire High School all the boys not the girls we became instant gambling addicts we were figuring out how to put bets on most of it was betting and
hockey because that's the sport that we all knew the best growing up in in Ottawa but it was all day every day it consumed us and I think when you look inside of these apps you're seeing a lot of young men with a lot of free cash and a lot of time getting sucked into the gamification of this thing I think it's going to be a big problem and I I will tell you saaks I'm interested in your on
this cuz there is a whole system an ecosystem emerging here the states are getting massive amounts of Revenue 11 billion generated last year up 44.5% from 2022 the league is printing money from this all the leagues NBA will generate 167 million from betting this season up 11% year-over-year the sports books obviously killing a Draft Kings got a$ 20 billion market cap and betters
obviously love it it's more fun it's making the games more engaging and the media is loving this all of the podcast Bill Simmons ESPN you can't watch a game you can't hear Sports commentary without this being integrated and it's being integrated at a very fundamental editorial level they're asking the host of these shows their spend what they're
betting on and they're doing something very smart which is they're paying huge endorsement deals to the players as well yes I think DraftKings did something with LeBron this is genius because when you get that ingratiated you'll never get ripped out because if they become a huge part of the offc Court Revenue model for these players yeah we're locked in it's like it's like the new uh
it's like the new Air Jordans sax what do you think about this just in terms of on a societal basis and the United States you know it's sort of like cannabis you know it's this is a new thing for Americans to have access to there's a lot of weird behaviors going on edge cases but what do you think net net as a society you take away from the emergence of sports batting and this
next Generation being so addicted to it well I think cannabis is the right analogy I think adults should be allowed to bet on sporting events or just like they're allowed to drink or you know smoke pod or engage in other mild VI some people handle it responsibly and some don't it's probably on a societal basis it's probably not a great thing but it's something you allow to happen
because of personal freedom and hopefully people use it responsibly uh freeberg you have any thoughts you play you place any bets free broke have you plac any bets on Sports I'm curious I do not you do not I I don't I don't place bets on Sports but I love playing cards because it's social jamat do you do any sports betting now and again maybe this maybe on the Super
Bowl you get uh once in a while you place a bet a wager when I got admitted to the ownership group in the NBA I stopped and I've probably made three bets since then both all three were like on the Super Bowl at a casino which so it was legal when I was still an owner and I've not done it since and I've refused to download these apps because I love sports and I think that if I added this to
it I just don't think it would be good for me so I don't want to do it that was my exact take too sack you ever place any bets you're not a wager the stuff either right yeah you ever bet on chess is there any no one bets on chess because it's so obvious who's going to win there's like a very precise rating system and correct so in poker poker's very different because you can have
players at the same table and you know who are the great players and who are not the great players but still in any given hand the underdog can win because you can basically suck out or whatever there's a significant luck component on every single hand over the long term you believe that the luck kind of evens out and you reach your expected value but On
Any Given hand you can believe that you're the winner and so there's a lot of gambling and poker even though it is a skill game in chess like that just doesn't work I mean if I play Magnus Carlson or any 2000 rated player I'm just never gonna win so there's no point in betting saak what's your rating 1400 I'm a little better than that I'm like um I'm probably more like 1600 last
time I was 1400 I stopped playing him because he would just I would get to the middle game with sacks I get like 30 moves in and then he would just smash me I'm like 800 or something I how do you get better you have a rating I don't want to talk about it he doesn't want to talk but what's your rating are you still upset about the octopus stuff no oh okay what's your but what's your
rating question it's too personal a question do you do you never share information where people can actually like R you yeah be vulnerable dude come on ask ask me other questions just don't ask me about my CH rating don't ask me about my chest rating ask anything else what's the best way to get better should I get a coach or something saxs what's the the chess.com app has very good
lessons on it too quite good yeah you could get a coach and that would definitely help there's also these exercises you can do call puzzle rushes that teach you how to spot tactics that's all tactics that's probably half the game yeah like you learn how to do a night fork or something like that how to do pins you just need to spot tactics quickly is really key my puzzle Rush
scores are pretty good oh you're over a thousand puzz no no you play it's like how many you can get in a certain period of Time how many and it gets it gets sequentially harder as you complete the puzzles and you have like a limited period to do it so yet you feel shame you feel shame if you want to get better at chess I've watched a lot of Chess videos on YouTube and there's a very
good series by John Bartholomew called climbing the ratings ladder H and for each level of Elo ratings he has a series of videos so like I don't know if you're like at 1200 there's a whole series for 1200s and he'll play a bunch of games against 1200s showing what they typically do wrong and you can learn from it it's actually you spent have you spent time socks like studying like openings and
like studying like specific lines I don't even know if I'm using the right language here like um opening right I haven't spent a ton of time studying them but I'm certainly familiar with a number of the most common openings so I guess yes I guess on some level I've studied them I would say that depending on where you are in your development that may not be the most
impressing thing for you to do you know I think you you probably do want to just know a few basics of a few of the most common openings but but there's probably other things for you to learn first you don't need to like memorize a bunch of complicated lines I think it's like really cool that kids are learning this I know this may be a counter or a contrarian view but I I
think kids having access you know or young adults having access to sports batting poker is kind of a good thing because I you know if controlled because are learning about odds and gambling and and framing it I um with my 14-year-old are doing an allowance and then I decided to do an investment club and so I'm putting $100 every month into like a Robin Hood account and we're going to do
like two meetings every month one to buy a new stock and one to examine our existing stocks and I'm just starting an investment Club so if anybody's kids are in that age group and they want to join it let me know because I'm going to do like a with the cousins like a zoom call every month where we just talk about stocks and then I'm going to have them actually buy
it so that they can be prepared for the real world and how companies are going but how do you think about your kids jth because you you got to do this gambling when you were young didn't that help you ultimately as an adult I mean I ran a casino in my high school was that was that the uh yeah I mean I I ran a I ran a little blackjack game where the rich kids could play and
I was the house and I would make a few extra hundred bucks a week nice and that was great because like you know between that and my job at Burger King it really helped and then I would go and take that and I actually came pretty decent at blackj and I would go they would there would be these what's called charity casinos so casinos in Ottawa Ontario
were illegal but if they were to raise charity for various Charities they were allowed and so my friend my friend and I would show up at these things and just run them over anybody else run an illegal business as a as a kid I'll tell you about mine after sack do you run any illegal businesses as a kid no comment come on it's statue of limitations what did you do you must have been running
some scams come on tell us I'll tell you my two scams after you tell us yours oh by the way I'll tell you I had a bad dead situation in my in my oh really lunch game you know I used to I used to let people bet up to a buck okay so four or five guys up you know 25 cents 50 cents or a dollar and one guy he like demanded an expanded credit line and so I gave him up to two bucks and how many
boxes a z did he go down and one lunch he lost 80 bucks and it took me three months to get paid it was the worst exp of Z I had no $80 I had I'm just doing a soprano I had to I had to sweat this guy for three months to get my 80 he was rich too his parents were Rich what he do did he have to do your term papers or something did he have to do your essays clean clean your bike I
wouldn't have gotten this come on give it up what was your what was your scam you were running as let's move on I had two scams freeberg you have a scam when you were running when you were a kid any scams I used to go to the Recycler newspaper do you guys remember that yeah the recycler and I would buy used like Electronics equipment computer equipment and then I would like sell it
so I would then like post other ads I basically did add Arbitrage as a way to think about it so I would go and find people selling stuff that I thought was like underpriced and I would buy it there was nothing to fix you would just it was underpriced and then I knew like the better Market to go sell it at and make more money so then I'd buy like all these like old like like a broken
receiver disc man and a receiver good speaker speakers that I knew were good but they were like deeply discounted I drive around in my white van I'd pay people cash I'd load it up and then I go sell it to like other people by putting ads no wonder you w up no wonder you wound up at Google I had I had two really good scams when I was a kid the first was this guy
owed my dad some money for back gaming my dad was a back gamon shark and he would play in his bar when I would show up at 6:00 in the morning my dad would be playing blackjack with guys they would get you know in deep with him and so this guy who was in the mob owe my dad some money and uh for The Vig he gave him a copy of The Empire Strikes Back on VHS and I was like what you this is
before it was out they had recorded in the movie theaters in 1984 or something3 whenever that came out and it was a really bad copy so I my dad comes home he gives me the copy we watch it it was incredible it's like thanks Dad and I got my friend to bring over his VHS I made 10 copies of it I go to school in McKinley junor High School in Brooklyn and I sell them for 30 bucks a pop oh my
God selling like hot cakes and then I get pinched math teacher says what's going on with these Empire Strikes Back and I said uh what do you mean I don't know what you're talking about he's like I heard your got onire strikes back he kept your mouth shut I looked him dead in the eye and I said are you interested the teacher goes yeah how much are they I said 30 bucks but I'll
give you one for 10 and he said okay pulled out 10 bucks I sold my math teacher I kid you not the Empire Strike Back for 10 bucks can you do this whole thing again but in the Christopher Walkin voice I'm not gonna but I'll give you the other one I did no it's a Joe pesy voice do this one in the Christopher Walkin voice and so the name of it was Jason's hot tapes and so I
made a business card and laminated Jason's hot tapes and I would hand it to people and I'd hand them the Jason's hot tape card and theyd say give me my card back but I would just show him that I had a card oh that reminds me I was also in the fake ID business oh say more yeah I grinded out I grinded out fake IDs with a buddy of mine all right that was mine that was mine oh Z
the fake ID business too we used Harvard Graphics Sak what were you using I was using Harvard Graphics well this was in the days before Holograms and it wasn't it just wasn't that hard to you know cop so we just made like boards or whatever and Polaroids so we did it for ourselves and we did it for friends yeah same here's the thing about the fake ID business the bouncers were like if you
got money show us any piece of paper so we have plausible we have plausible deniability just wanted plausible deniability that was the that's the key to the racket did you put mck Lovin in University of Hawaii yeah actually well it's kind of funny is sometimes the bouncers would go what's your name and you'd be like you'd be stumped because you didn't remember what so drunk you
don't even remember like my name is was like my name was like was like Raj Patel Raj Patel or they' ask you what was your birthday and you don't remember what's on your ID you don't know what's on your ID I don't remember I don't remember you know the the key I had one drink now the key in the fake ID game is to use your your month and day that's yours and then just change the Year yes
that's the key that's the key all right so I'll give you the second one do it in Christopher Walkin voice so my friend his brother had a DeLorean he I I can't do it I can't sated anyway this kid U who I grew up with oh I should sorry um anyway his name was beep that out he lived up on 13th Avenue I go to his house his brother's got a DeLorean it was
incredible and we're in junior high school and I'm talking to his brother and I go into the garage and there's all DeLorean Parts on the wall and I said why do you have all these parts and he said oh you know uh there was a DeLorean that um you know fell apart and we picked up the pieces they had stolen another DeLorean because DeLorean stopped producing and they just chopped
it up but he had in his garage so anyway uh we're playing Chessmaster at the time and I had hacked a copy of Chessmaster it was very easy to do and the guy said you got Chessmaster can you get me more copies of that I said sure how many copies you want he's like how many can you make I was like well floppy disc costs four bucks he's like I'll give you 10 bucks a copy of Chess Master I said
fine I go with my friend we go steal floppy discs uh from the store so we didn't want to pay the four bucks for them not the not the three and a halfs the five and a quarter these are five and a quarters and we go into the store and we take the flyer and I hold the flyer open and I hold it behind my back and my friend takes the discs out of the sleeve at Stables whatever Dums them in
there we made copies of it and then we were selling Chessmaster for 10 bucks a pop at scale and giving them to the guys on 13th Avenue who were then reselling them for 20 bucks this is when Chessmaster was like a $100 product Shout out to Chessmaster um but that was my second scam business this is some degenerate yeah and that's not even the best one the I'll give you the best one
this is the best and I'll give you the last scan we ran there were parking permits in the late 80s in Manhattan they were hard to get but they were legit if you had a parking permit in your window for the fire department police you know you could park in Manhattan in a lot of different areas and so uh we went and we took a picture of these then we got on
page maker or whatever and I went down to Canal Street and I bought at uh Pearl paints like the the same color orange and that lamination kit and we got on Photoshop I kid you not we held the picture up and we tried to figure out the fonts they used and we made a copy of the placards to park and then we sold those for like 50 bucks and people used them and they wouldn't get tickets they
worked so we sold police placards that had to be super illegal in 1988 all right everybody four your Sultan of science the exceptional David freedberg your chairman dictator jth ptia the Rainman yeah David Sachs I am your world's greatest moderator J Cal we'll see you on episode 176 and hopefully in September at the all-in summit bye-bye byebye your Winner's ride Rainman
David and it said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it queen [Music] of Besties my dog Tak driveways oh man my habiter will meet me at we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're all just useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] somehow we need to get mer [Music] our I'm going all [Music]