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What if what you think is weakness What if those are actually your strengths?
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What if being vulnerable and open to looking at the world in a different way, moving through the world in a different way, approaching problem-solving in a different way was actually your superpower.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Now, you know that I absolutely love autobiographies and biographies.
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I love learning about how real people have dealt with real challenges and real situations in their life.
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And today's guest is someone's book that I've been reading.
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I'm about halfway through it, in all honesty, and I can't put it down because of just how honest, raw, open, and vulnerable today's author is about some seriously life-changing moments.
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And I know for a fact that this is going to help you if you read the book, and it's going to help the people around you because of what you learn from it, and I'm sure you'll be passing this one on.
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I'm speaking about none other than Gabrielle Union, and for those of you that don't know, she's an actress, executive producer, activist, and best-selling author, and she'll next be seen in Disney's remake of Cheaper by the Dozen developed by Kenya Barris for Disney Plus.
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In May of 2021, Gabrielle released, in partnership with her husband Dwyane Wade, her second children's book, Shady Baby, which became a New York Times best-seller the first week of release.
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Her first book, We're Going to Need More Wine: Stories That Are Funny, Complicated, and True, was released in 2017 and instantly became a New York Times best seller.
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And the book we're talking about today that I just told you I was reading is called "You Got Anything Stronger?"
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and it will be released on September 14th of this year.
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I'm grateful to have an early copy and have this conversation.
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Gabrielle, thank you so much for making the time.
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I know you have a busy schedule, but I'm glad we're getting to do this. Yeah, no. I'm excited.
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I'm so excited to to be on your show.
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So, thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, I I meant what I said when I was just sharing that I was I've been reading your book, I was learning things about you that I did not know.
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And I couldn't put it down because the way you deeply describe some truly life-changing moments, I think it's going to impact so many people in the world.
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So, I thanked you offline, but I want to say online as well that thank you for writing this book as a service because I think it's going to move and uh make a difference in the lives of so many people.
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I I want to start off by something you talk about in the first chapter.
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We're going to dive straight in.
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Uh you start off by talking about how the question changed from "When are you going to have kids?"
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to "Why don't you get a surrogate?" right?
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Like this question changes in your life.
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Tell us about the transition of experiencing what it felt like when you were struggling to have children and then having the question change and it still doesn't make you feel better instantly and it doesn't improve.
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Tell us about that experience from your perspective.
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Yeah, well well first, I think when it comes to women's reproductive health, um it it you don't most people don't um they knock at the door and they don't wait for anyone to answer.
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They just come on in your house.
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They're looking through your cabinets.
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They're under your you know, your they're under your bed.
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They feel completely entitled to your truth, whatever that may be.
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Um so, I never really had the luxury of not sharing certain things um because if I didn't share it, you know, uh, they would turn an IVF cycle into a pregnancy and they would report on me being pregnant.
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Um, and it was just it was like, you know, me chasing my tail.
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So, I just got to the point where I'm just going to be as transparent about, you know, as much of this as as I can.
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Um, but people feel very comfortable, you know, asking you is like whether you're married, not married, if you're with a guy, um, that people or or you're coupled, people feel like the next and only step is you better give us a baby.
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And that baby better be awesome and have the cure for cancer.
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Like it there is no might you do anything else.
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Um, the world is very suspicious of women who don't have children.
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For they don't even care what the reason is.
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You don't have kids, they assume the worst about you.
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You are the scum of the earth.
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What woman wouldn't want to have kids?
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Um, so so much of this process for so many people is just fraught with a lot of pain and a lot of, um, entitled behavior on the part of those around us.
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So, immediately, as soon as, you know, I had been with D before we were even married, it was, "So, when are you guys going to have a kid?
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When are you guys going to have a kid?"
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And for me, um, as someone, you know, we'd both already been married before, I I wanted to, you know, wait until we were in a better place in our relationship.
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Um, but no one wanted to to to be patient.
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It was an a constant barrage. When? When? When?
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You better give us this freaking baby.
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Um, and then I started feeling not only the pressure I was putting on myself and my body and starting to feel very defective and feeling like I was unworthy of motherhood, unworthy of a baby.
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Babies were rejecting me.
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Um, you know, all of those feelings that take us right back to childhood of you know, of um, you know, wild insecurities.
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Um, being very concerned about what everyone is thinking.
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Um, and and making decisions based on outside noise, right?
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Um, so by the time I had gone through years of of IVF cycles and mi- constant miscarriages that I that I talk about in the first book, um, I was just kept ready to keep going. Let's try another cycle.
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Whatever, whatever it takes. So by the time I met Dr.
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Kelly Beck, um, who's based in Los Angeles and she is a fertility specialist, but she's not a one-size-fits-all fertility doctor like some.
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Um, a lot of doctors are very concerned about their success rates and live births and they don't they're not really that concerned about finding the why of your infertility.
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It's just I'm going to get you a baby and I don't care how it happens. Right.
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Um, and with Kelly with Dr.
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Kelly Beck, she was like, "Well, let's figure out what's wrong first and then we can make a an educated plan that's based and tailored to you."
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And I was like, "What is this you speak of?"
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Cuz I had been to literally every leading fertility doctor in the country.
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And so first examination, she was like, "Oh, you have adenomyosis." Mhm.
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And everyone pronounces that differently.
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So if you pronounce I don't know myosis differently, all good.
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We're saying the same thing.
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It's endometriosis of the muscle.
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So as an embryo is trying to implant, the um, the adenomyosis grows around it and it will snuff it out like like a blob. So Dr.
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Beck was like, "Okay, these are your options.
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Um, you can either go with a gestational carrier, aka a surrogate, or we can start you on Lupron.
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But with Lupron, it puts your body into early menopause, which would quiet the adenomyosis.
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We would implant an embryo and hope hope that it would grow faster than the adenomyosis returned.
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And that was the first time you'd heard that?
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Yeah, 30 is a whole lot more than zero, which is what I was batting.
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But the idea of a surrogate just felt like failure.
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And it felt for me a face a fate worse than death is public failure, public humiliation, and my body betraying me where I needed to bring in some other person to get the job done felt so public.
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And it just felt like such a public failure, public humiliation, public loss, and I was willing to do anything to avoid that.
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So I went through like another year um of IVF treatments.
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Didn't didn't do the Lupron, but just continued you know, on another year.
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Um But then I was like, you know what? Give me the Lupron. I'm doing it. I'm going in. I'm going in.
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And my husband was like you've done enough.
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And I was like you're not calling it. I'm calling it.
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You know, you have a gang of kids. I don't have any.
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I have awesome step kids, but I don't have any of my own, so it's really easy for you to say.
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Um and he said, as much as we want this baby as much as I want this baby I want you more.
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And at about that point, I was like I begrudgingly agreed to surrogacy.
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And then that is its own fun journey um that led us to our daughter Kavya James.
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Yeah, thank you so much for for sharing that because I think the pressure you speak about is is so true and it feels like everyone's going through it but not everyone shares that and then you think you're the only one.
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I know so me and my wife uh we've been together for 8 years now and married for five and we constantly get this question of when are you going to give us a child and that's everyone.
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You're right, it's not just your family, it's not just people that are in your life, it's it's anyone and everyone you meet.
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And often it can be sometimes it can be well-intentioned, sometimes it's just past time talk like don't have anything else to talk about.
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Uh but you know, for us when we'd made a very conscious decision that we were trying to build our lives, we moved country, we moved state, like we moved from London to New York and then New York to LA and now we're in LA and we finally found our feet.
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Uh you know, for us the the biggest thing has been just trying to go at our own pace and our own time.
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And I've also heard of so many friends who've been told when their marriage is rough they've been given the advice, "Well, just have another kid and it will work out."
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And it's almost like using children as an excuse, using children as a mending mechanism, using children as a a hope like this whole process seems to put so much stress and pressure on everyone.
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What to speak of what you've had to go through on the receiving end of that.
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And and I appreciate that you're sharing that.
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I really do because I'm hoping that it's going to make people more mindful with what we say especially to women.
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Uh and it's going to make people more conscious about approaching that conversation.
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Tell us about I mean recently you did a thing, you cut your hair uh and you said on Instagram that most women do big changes like this when things aren't working out or when things are lost but you've done it for you when life is going awesome.
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What have been the biggest changes from that moment we just talked about which is where the book starts to today when you're cutting your hair, you're saying life's going awesome, like things are moving in the right direction.
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What have been the biggest changes or shifts that have happened?
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Uh I mean, the the biggest shift was the birth of, you know, Kavya James.
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Um when they say no one can be prepared for, you know, motherhood or the birth of a child, you really can't.
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You really really really can't.
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You can read all the books, you can watch all the podcasts, listen to all the podcasts, but every baby is different, every child is different, and they come in like you know, pretty much who they are.
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So, you're you feel helpless in a different kind of way, but you're tasked with, you know, guiding and shaping and nourishing and nurturing these lives, but we don't know cuz every kid is different.
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So, the handbook that you thought, you know, was oh, I got the book.
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Okay, parenting for dummies, whatever.
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Um there is no chapter on your kid because every kid is different, and you have to get very comfortable with being uncomfortable and not having the answer.
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Um so, that has been a big shift cuz I liken myself a learned person.
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Um I love I love education, I love learning, I love um you know, traveling and learning new ways of doing things, new ideas, but yeah, there's nothing that can prepare you for how vulnerable and clueless you feel.
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Um I have never asked for more help than I ever have since she's been born.
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I've never relied on this many people.
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Uh probably since I was an infant.
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Um and I feel it's not normal for me. I out of sorts.
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Um but I had to get used to the new normal.
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Um and being okay with embracing my vulnerability as my superpower.
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Um and I had a lot a lot of therapy.
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You know, a lot of therapy to to just work through so many of these new changes.
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And then, you know, a couple of years, you know, a year and a half, she's talking, she's moving, she's, you know, got her little crew of little toddler friends, and oh wait, it's a global pandemic.
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And now we are all in the house together.
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And, you know, sometimes when each person sort of works outside of the home, you you have an idea of people's parenting styles, you know, and work styles, um but when you have to work, you know, study, uh parent, um socialize all at the same place at the same time, um you learn a lot about each other.
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Um and I had to get to know Dwayne's parenting style, and he had to get to know mine.
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Um turns out, as much as I am like kind of a by-the-book, super anal person, I'm more of a I mean, what's really the Okay.
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Okay, she's going to be in her pajamas all day. Who cares? Who cares? Who cares? And he's like, I care. I care a lot. I care a lot.
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So, you know, just getting used to sharing space all together, you know, that's never been our life.
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I've had a very sort of transient life since uh my last couple semesters of college.
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I've been an actor, you know, going where the work has taken me.
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So, I've never had to really be home like that or like this.
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Um you know, dealing with my parents, uh siblings, our children.
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You know, it was more in and out, you know, I had like spot treatments of parenting, not like, "Ooh, 24/7. Okay.
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Oh no, you're still here. All right."
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Um that has been a big transition, you know, and learning how to extend grace and receive it has been a huge transition. That's that's beautiful.
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I I love how you talk about, you know, it's almost like inviting and receiving Kaavia James is such a beautiful spiritual you know, incredible experience in the way you talk about in the book and I hope that everyone who's listening will will go and read that section because it's it's so amazing to hear just how with grace. Grace is the right word.
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You just said it about how you felt.
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What would you say has been the biggest thing you've learned about Dwyane at this time?
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And what do you think is the biggest thing you've learned about yourself during this time because of Kaavia James?
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What have been the big learnings about him and about yourself?
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Um yeah, there's there's we talk about this also in the book.
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Um you know, cuz Dwyane obviously, you know, he he played uh in the NBA for 16 years and you know, he moved.
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Um though we don't like to talk about those Chicago that Chicago year and the you know, the the Cleveland few months.
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Um you know, he was in the NBA for 16 years and our whole schedules revolved around his schedule and making sure that he had everything he needed to be comfortable and successful and for him to thrive.
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Um and when he retired, he was like, "Babe, now it's your turn."
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And I discovered um because most of my work that I do has been away from home, they have no idea what it takes for me to be successful, what it takes for me to be comfortable, what it takes for me to thrive.
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So, I've had to be I've had to learn how to communicate my needs and manage expectations.
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Um because our world as a family um revolved around Dwyane's NBA schedule and his, you know, his games, his practices, the countless, you know, therapists and specialists and trainers and this that and the other.
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We all had to revolve around him.
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And so, when he said, "It's your turn."
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I took that pretty literally because I definitely thought, "Oh, awesome.
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Oh, this is going to be amazing."
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And And it really wasn't.
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Um They never saw what it took, you know, they didn't come to my set.
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And like we all go to his games, you know, we know we know what his greatness looks like.
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Um we can see him on TV, but you know, my my projects, they don't come out for a year later or whatever.
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So, and they've never been on set, so they just had no idea.
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And it you know, it kind of culminated in this day where I had zooms back-to-back.
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You know, I'm struggling. I'm struggling.
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I see him walk by, and I'm like, "Oh, yo, can you Can you get me a glass of water, please?"
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And he goes, "I don't work for you." Come again?
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Um and I'm thinking, "I didn't work for you either, but like I did what was necessary.
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I did what was on my part.
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I didn't I didn't I would didn't realize we were keeping track.
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I didn't And you had I had to realize like, "Oh, support looks different. Uh real different.
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And when it's, you know, I don't want to I don't want to speak in generalities, but a lot of times I've I've heard a a lot of women relate to this that when it's when it's, you know, the man's turn to return the favor, Yeah.
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it just looks a lot different.
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And where they feel like put out.
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Or y'all A lot of men feel put out and like they're losing or they're being weak by helping, by being active participant in their household and in child-rearing and in, you know, um you know, marital support, um or relationship support.
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It It They They receive it amazing, but when it's time to give, it it somehow feels differently. Right.
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And getting through those challenges without me, um you know, smothering him with a pillow, uh, has been a challenge.
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Thank you for being so honest because it's, again, I I think you're speaking about something that every single person experiences in in one way or another and you know, what what's remarkable is obviously that even though that may have been the transition point of now it's
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your turn, you were still having an incredibly successful career during that time and you were still doing amazing things and you know, it's almost like one wouldn't know that everything was revolving around his his basketball career because it's not like you weren't winning, too. Uh, but it's amazing to see how much
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Uh, but it's amazing to see how much that would have taken for you to balance and then finally when it comes back, how do you have that conversation?
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What you just shared with me is so beautiful and you know, as uh, as a married man who I'm I'm trying to be uh, what I would hope my my mom would be proud of me being because she raised me and she was an amazing mom and I've seen my mom like run a household and work way harder than anyone around and so I've always felt the need to want to support.
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So I'm always trying my best.
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How do you have that conversation with your partner and how do our listeners have that conversation with their partner where it doesn't become this give and take demand, but it actually starts to, you know, we know there's no ideal, but how does it start to become a healthier space of collaboration if that even exists? How do you get there?
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What What do you do to try to shift in that direction?
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Well, I listen, I'm not even going to front like it was easy cuz my instinct was be like, are you kidding me?
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You know, and then and then it's an argument, but I'm still thirsty.
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I still don't have the water. You know what I mean?
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So, I had to be like, "I love you and that hurt me and I want to figure out how to talk to you about this so we can figure out how to navigate this.
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Which I totally read somewhere, not even going to pretend like I came up with that, but this idea of when you're like, you want to do that? Mhm. I love you.
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What that was was not ideal and it and it hurt me.
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But is there a way that we can come up with something together that we're both okay with? Uh totally works.
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Um but I can't take credit for it.
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Uh but it it's super effective, but if you lead with love, and it's like, I'm not trying to hurt you, I'm not trying to squash you, I'm not, as my husband says, cut your balls off. Mhm. Mhm.
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I'm I'm trying to figure out how we how we can move through this world together, not one walking in front of the other dragging them behind or, you know, um one person sort of dictating to the other, but how do we walk side by side, each of us getting enough of what we need? Yeah.
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Um and a lot of that just boils down to use your words, like we tell the toddler, use your words. That tantrum is cute.
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I think I know what you're talking about.
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You got to use your words. Calm down.
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Take a time out if needed. Use your words.
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And let's come back to this.
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And it's been night and day.
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And but a lot of it is as women we are conditioned to be nurturers.
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We are conditioned to be trauma and emotional and physical labor mules.
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That is just what our lot in life like lot in life is and that's how we're deemed a good women good woman Yeah.
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you know, based on like how much we can take, basically.
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None of it None of There's not a lot of upside on that.
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But men are judged by do you provide? That's it. Do you provide?
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But in our household, we both provide.
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We both bought this house.
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So, mama is going to work and mama needs some things, too. So, this is what I need.
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I want I want you to know, Gabrielle, that everything you're saying is resonating.
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We have a bunch of my team who are some of them which are men producing this show right now and they're all nodding, laughing, agreeing.
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You are You are connecting.
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So, everything you're saying is is resonating with not just me, but but a lot of the guys who are listening right now as well and uh I I think that's so true.
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One of the things that I've always try to think of it as is do I really see myself spending the rest of my life with this person?
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And if I do, is what I'm about to say in this moment how I want them to feel potentially for the rest of our life?
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Because they could they could take this moment and they could never let go of it.
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If it really hurts them if if I really say something insensitive, my wife could think about this for the next 10, 20, 30 years because it hurts her so deeply and that's going to ruin the next 10, 20, 30 years of my own life.
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So, even if it's selfish, it's it's a great reflection of being honest and just being like, "If I'm going to spend the rest of my life with this person, if I'm going to wake up in bed next to them next week and next year, do I want them to feel that this is how I feel about them?"
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Uh and and you know, that's been something that's really helped me where I'm always trying to like fast forward into the future and go, "How does How does me saying this right now because it's comfortable make my right life really uncomfortable in the future?"
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Oh, I I I listen, my my the first my first marriage cuz there's been more than one. Yeah.
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You know, we were at our our marriage, you know, therapist putting in that last-ditch effort and she said to me, "You know, you seem to be very focused on, you know, winning and losing and who's a winner, who's a loser.
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Um you do realize in order for a marriage to be successful, you need to both win.
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So, you know, some days you're going to win, some days he's going to win, some days you're going to lose, you know, vice versa.
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But you really seem to be very focused on making your husband a loser. And I'm like, "Yeah."
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Oh, that's probably why it's not working.
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Um you'd think I would have gotten that lesson, but it's like, you know, I come from sports just like he comes from sports, and it's like we don't play that you get a freaking trophy just for showing up.
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Like that's No, like like you know, I don't know if you guys saw that the two Olympians who, you know, went out with like a like a shared gold medal. No, not in this house.
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We're going to play till the bitter end.
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You know, I want Megan Rapinoe taking my PK.
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Like listen, that's just what it is, right?
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Um I want a winner and I want a loser, and you're going to take this L.
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Um but I have to always remember if I want a successful marriage, I can't want you to be a loser in this.
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So, you have to reprioritize if you want success.
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Do you want to win, or do you want to be successful?
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Cuz those two things don't always go together.
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Yeah, I think that's really well said.
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How does that translate that energy and that spirit translate to the kids?
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Because I I how how are they taking that on?
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How are they taking on both of your competitive spirits, uh but also understanding the difference between success and winning?
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How are you How are you working that through?
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Oh, they look at us like we're nuts.
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Um they're they're in that younger generation where it's not about winning, it's the experience. It's the journey. I'm like, that's cute. Um What?
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You know, like they're it's a whole different generation where it's not about the outcome, it's about, you know, your path.
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It's about, you know, are you a good person? Are you compassionate?
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Are you a good global citizen?
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And I'm like, okay, yeah, yeah, but who won?
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And they're like, that's not not what's important.
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So, you know, we have to catch up to them, you know?
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Um it's definitely our generation and, you know, the older generation that is like No you pansies like no you somebody's got to win you know and they just don't subscribe to that you know at all.
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Yeah I wonder I wonder whether we're going to find somewhere in the middle where it's like we realize that people can win compassionately or succeed empathetically or be number one but do it to serve like I wonder whether we're going to meet in the middle somewhere which which almost feels like the right blend of those two worlds of like well maybe we can have winners that are the most compassionate and they're doing it
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for others and they're the most humble and it's like the paradox of embracing both of the polarities that seem like opposites but actually what what if people could be both of them right like how amazing would that be and I think
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those are the kind of winners we love and those are the kind of humans we love so yeah let's let's let's try and bring them closer together let's see if we can we can pull them closer together a child shall lead you and ours are
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leading us and we are you know begrudgingly following behind you know but yeah it's but that's what it's about you know when I saw those two Olympians sharing the gold and sharing the podium that's what sport is supposed to be about building community working together you know for the greater good of learning how to you know have teamwork learning you know everyone working together for a greater goal it's it shouldn't always be about me me me but
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you know I came from the Bobby Knight school of you know you know like I was like why are we out here it's hot like I want to win like what otherwise go read a book I love it it's okay to evolve Yes absolutely I love that talking
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talking about books I spoke about earlier that you and Dwayne wrote a children's book called Shady Baby and I was fascinated because the baby's superpower is shade and and I wanted to understand that. I wanted you to explain
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I wanted you to explain that to us for anyone who's who's not read the book yet.
28:53
Shady Baby is the the children's book that you put together.
28:55
Yeah, tell us about why the superpower is shade.
28:58
Yeah, you know, so for many children, the way they're able to communicate is through body language, right?
29:03
Um when you lack the language and you lack the vocabulary to fully articulate whatever whatever it is that you like, don't like, um are uncomfortable with, something is hurting, whatever.
29:15
Um when you lack the language, you got to rely on body language.
29:20
So Kavya James came out the you know, the arrived like, you know, very clear.
29:27
She didn't like certain things, you know, you know, they tell you you got to put your you know, your you know, support the baby's head and their neck.
29:34
And Kav was like, my neck is good.
29:36
Like I I don't know what you guys are used to, but like from jump, she was just very, you know, and as she got older, you know, we and we started calling her Shady Baby cuz she would have the the these looks that were just like, you know, um so we just kind of called her Shady Baby, but as she got a little older, we realized that so many girls of color, starting from a very young age, are adultified.
29:59
They are not given agency over their ways of communicate of communicating.
30:04
So, most children aren't just going to be shady for no reason.
30:09
They're trying to communicate to you, I don't like that. I don't want that.
30:13
Um that is harmful to me in some kind of way.
30:16
Um and so instead of looking at shade as a negative, just listen and watch for your children communicating with you.
30:25
So we wanted to show shade as a superpower.
30:27
We're giving these kids um agency back to communicate in whatever way they they are able to to let us know what they like and don't like and and um and that we can use shade as as just another uh way of communicating.
30:45
Yeah, that's such a great message for children because they're just trying to find the simplest, easiest way of telling you how they feel.
30:52
Uh because for so many people we just look at shade negatively like you said.
30:57
We we think of it how an adult would use shade.
30:59
But for a child, they're just trying to find the simplest, easiest way to express and communicate to you what they're going through and what they're experiencing.
31:08
And so I I really like that line of messaging.
31:10
Going back to your book, uh you got anything stronger, when I was reading in the second chapter, I believe it was, and you talk about, you know, religiously watching The Last Dance, which by the way I loved as well.
31:21
Me and my wife watched it together.
31:23
And my wife isn't even a sports fan.
31:25
She's not a basketball She likes basketball, but she's not a massive sports fan. And we loved it.
31:31
And she would watch every episode with me because of how incredible it was uh to watch.
31:33
But you talk about how that reminded you of a You know, I mean, I I don't even have the words to really describe what you experienced, and I don't even want to try.
31:46
But your rape experience at 19 years old uh and you've said that you talk about it in the book.
31:52
You're like, "I've talked about this, but people are still like, Wait, what?"
31:55
They don't recognize because you you're someone who's gone on to achieve incredible things and make a difference in the world.
31:59
And you're going off to change legislation and policy.
32:02
And you're you're working so hard for it.
32:06
Can you share with us how you look back on that experience now as the years have passed?
32:11
And and how you've been able to reconcile or contextualize it for yourself in in or in in whatever way you have or haven't.
32:20
I just want to hear about your thoughts as you look back on it now and the way you describe in the book, again, everyone, I highly recommend you need to go and read it in the book, but I'd love to ask Gabrielle now.
32:30
Yeah, no, so just to give a little brief backstory just to catch folks up who who hadn't heard the story before.
32:34
Um at 19 years old, I was working, you know, a summer job at at Payless Shoe Source um in my community uh that I grew up in up in the Bay Area of, you know, uh California.
32:46
And um around closing time uh a man came in and, you know, robbed the store.
32:53
And during the commission of the robbery, he forced me and my coworker into the back area and then um raped me uh at gunpoint.
33:01
And at some point put down the gun during the rape and I grabbed it, um turned around, tried to shoot him.
33:12
I missed and then we had a battle for the for the gun.
33:14
Um and then he just proceeded to just pummel me pummel me pummel me.
33:20
Um and then he ultimately, you know, uh escaped.
33:26
So, the time I'm talking about in in our in our book is um one of the only saving graces that I had that summer of 1992 um was watching the Olympics and the Dream Team.
33:40
You know, we've had a number of incarnations of, you know, Dream Team, Redeem Team, this that and the other, but the original Dream Team where we were coming back to claim our dominance in international basketball.
33:54
Um and you had, you know, we were fresh off of Magic Johnson um you know, revealing to the world that he was HIV-positive, you know, had, you know, we were at the height of Michael Jordan's, you know, fame.
34:03
Um and those guys, you know, moving through the Olympic Village and through the Olympics just, you know, pummeling, you know, uh folks, but just full display, full peacock of black excellence uh when I felt like nothing.
34:24
And I I needed some kind of lifeline.
34:24
I needed I felt like I was drowning in plain sight and everyone was walking by me with life preservers, but nobody wanted to throw me one.
34:37
And those Olympians, um, Magic, MJ, Gail Devers, I mean, they threw me a lifeline, um, in watching their stories and watching their excellence, knowing all the things that they were battling and still persevering.
34:54
Um, it gave me that lifeline cuz as often I've told this story about being raped, and then I kind of move into, but now I'm a survivor and these are the things that I did, but I had never addressed that in-between stage where I was just beaten and in shock, numb.
35:18
I couldn't look at myself in the mirror cuz I didn't I mean, I was, you know, beaten beyond recognition.
35:24
I had just started therapy.
35:24
Like I started therapy, thank God, like a few days after my rape.
35:30
But that in-between stage of how do you get from or get on the path from victim to survivor, that in-between stage.
35:37
I call it my ghost stage, um, where I was a ghost of myself, um, kind of haunting my house that everyone just kind of let slide around and no one really addressed me or dealt with me.
35:54
It was just kind of like, I got nothing.
35:56
I don't even know what to say. No one knew what to say.
35:59
I didn't know what to say.
36:01
But something about watching the these Olympics and watching these Olympians be so unapologetically black and so unapologetically excellent, um, and being open about their struggles helped me get on the path to being a survivor.
36:25
And it was I I I didn't I never really realized or recognized the importance of that time because it's important in the story if I'm going to tell it that people know it wasn't fast.
36:35
There were There were many moments where I was a ghost of myself.
36:40
Um but it's okay to acknowledge that part of the journey. Yeah.
36:47
People don't You can't You You can't skip over steps when we talk about you know, um being survivors.
36:51
There's a lot of steps and I traditionally had skipped over some of the more painful ones. Yeah.
37:00
Thank you so much for sharing that again, Gabrielle.
37:01
I really appreciate that and for for our you know, for our community and our audience today who's listening and watching to to hear it from you is is is so profound.
37:10
It truly is and and you talk about how you like you were looking for heroes on the TV screen.
37:17
Like that's what you were looking for.
37:18
And and I love that statement because I feel like that's often where we look when we can't find it inside of ourselves, when we can't find it around us, we we look outside. We look around.
37:29
We look, you know, beyond our initial community.
37:31
And I wonder how many people now look to you and and Dwayne is their, you know, heroes on a screen and and and people in their world and especially as you write books like you do and share the stories that you're sharing with people like people are going to need, you know, you're you're doing that. You're passing that.
37:48
You're paying that forward and and I love I love witnessing that and seeing how what you were looking for is what you're able to be and you're not even trying to be that.
37:56
It's just happening because you're sharing these stories and you talk about how you had to embrace your vulnerability, embrace your kryptonite.
38:05
Tell us because the way you share in the book on even in this interview and this is the first time we've met just for anyone who knows, you know, we've never met before.
38:12
We've never spoken before.
38:14
Tell us about your experience with the shaman and and that journey towards embracing your kryptonite because I think that vulnerability today, as many words have, it's become a buzzword, and often vulnerability is still curated, and and we're not but you seem to have this very um I'm not going to say effortless, because I think there's effort there, but it's it's a very raw form of vulnerability.
38:42
Can you Can you explain to us maybe the different levels and layers of vulnerability that you've experienced in getting to where you are?
38:48
Yeah, no, I I had always looked at the word.
38:52
Let's not even get into the meaning, but the word as like, "Ooh, not me."
38:57
Um because to be vulnerable is to open yourself up for pain and harm.
39:02
And it's to be openly weak is how I thought about it. Mhm.
39:08
And so, there was nothing about any part of that I wanted on me.
39:15
Um I wanted to be seen as strong and independent and resilient and and and just a just, you know, my work ethic can override anything.
39:22
Um I can achieve my way, you know, to wherever.
39:26
I can price my way out of things.
39:29
I can um uh educate myself out of things.
39:32
Um I don't ever have to be weak.
39:36
I don't I never have to be vulnerable because I don't want anything else to happen to me.
39:44
And that's just how I've moved through the world.
39:46
Cut to you know, when life keeps throwing you challenges, at some point I ran into a brick wall, and I was like, "Perhaps I should stop trying to run into this brick wall and look for other ways around."
39:59
Um whether that be therapists, shamans, um you know, uh Brené Brown Brené Brown, uh you know, Glennon Doyle, you know, people who who speak on these things um in a way that I had never heard spoken.
40:19
Um, and it and it was easy to apply.
40:20
They didn't make it sound like, as my mother says, woo woo. No.
40:27
Oh, they're doing that woo woo.
40:27
And I'm like, okay, well, it's new age, do you mean?
40:32
So, it it didn't feel like that. It just felt clear. And I was like, oh.
40:38
So, you know, in talking to the shaman, um, he was like, you seem to run away from your, um, femininity.
40:49
And he's like, I'm not talking about, uh, gender expression.
40:51
I'm talking about, um, what makes women amazing and unique.
40:58
You seem to look at all of that as inherent weakness.
41:05
What if what you think is weakness?
41:10
What if those are actually your strengths?
41:13
What if being vulnerable and open to looking at the world in a different way, moving through the world in a different way, approaching problem-solving in a different way was actually, you know, your superpower.
41:31
What if And I was like, that sounds like, you know, He's like, just start practicing.
41:36
Anytime you feel the urge to do something that women would typically do, don't fight it. Mhm. I was like, whatever.
41:50
Let's And I started noticing that I'm definitely not on the, um, the girly girl, you know, uh, side of things. Yeah.
42:04
Kind of, you know, kind of cool continuum that's kind of has a cool balance of male-female on my Um, but what he meant was when you feel vulnerable. Mhm.
42:16
When you feel um like your emotions are going to be readily available on your face. Mhm. Don't try to hide. Mhm. Don't try to cover it. Just be.
42:30
And so a situation came up you know, where I can you start to feel it in your throat and then in your eyes and you're like, don't you don't don't you drop it.
42:39
Um I was like let's just see what happens. Mhm. Nothing happened.
42:49
And better than nothing, nothing negative happened. The world didn't end.
42:54
You No one used that against me. I was understood. Finally.
43:02
And pe- I allowed people to see me.
43:05
Which then allowed them to understand me and then they can better communicate with me.
43:08
Um but I had to use um my words and I had to be okay with not being okay. Mhm.
43:17
And um putting my heart out there. Mhm.
43:21
And when I tell you I've never looked back um there are still of course times where I'm like okay, they're going to use this against me.
43:29
They're going to absolutely use this against me.
43:30
Kind of like how I feel about like releasing my book into the world.
43:33
Um I don't know if there's enough therapy, you know, on the planet to really prepare you for basically handing your truth off to millions of people and hope they, you know, rock your baby to sleep.
43:45
Um it feels like tossing your baby into a crowd of, you know, wild hyenas.
43:52
But I'm all I can do is be me and tell the truth and lead with vulnerability and transparency and hope that I'm building community where there had been none or very little.
44:07
Where people needed the most.
44:07
You know, where where the people that needed the most are going to gravitate towards it and going to be attracted towards it and and find it to be useful and purposeful.
44:17
No, that's that that makes a lot of sense and it's uh Yeah, I I agree with you.
44:21
I mean, you know, there's there's parts of your life that you always want to be private, of course, and and privacy is also important and security is important as well.
44:29
And but there are parts of your life that you'll only ever fully uncover if you're vulnerable about them.
44:34
And I think that that balance in figuring it out individually again, like you said earlier, like you said, "Hey, when you have a child, no child is the same."
44:42
It's like, well, all of our inner childs are not the same and the the work that we need to do with vulnerability and privacy are not the same either.
44:48
And so I I think taking that more tailored, curated approach uh to seeing what we need and how we could slowly peel away and open up is is so important.
45:00
And you know, helping Zaya do that must have been extremely you know, uh an an amazing journey to be on with her.
45:09
And and I love how you talk about how in the book how you're not rewriting your your history together, but you're respecting um her wishes and and and who she is.
45:17
I I want you to share that journey with us as a parent and also Dwayne's perspective, too, because the way the way you describe in the book is going to help so many people who have that very limited viewpoint of I don't know if I could do anything to accept.
45:35
And by the way, I have many We have many friends, family friends, even in the South Asian community.
45:39
It's it's uh you know, it's off These things are just often not spoken about and and often kids live with shame for many years.
45:46
And you know, to the extent of obviously kids taking their own lives and it going really too far.
45:53
And so I want to hear for as a parent how you both processed and understood and have have and have turned it into a beautiful opportunity for all of you to thrive.
46:05
Yeah, I mean, well, our responses certainly initially were, you know, pretty different just based on our our life experience.
46:11
And me being older than him by, you know, almost 10 years.
46:16
Um, I've just been on the planet a little bit longer and you know, I I work in a different kind of industry, but I was lucky enough to be born into a family where, you know, when we moved from Omaha, Nebraska to the Bay Area, my mom was like, yes.
46:35
I've always raised you girls to have a world perspective and not a town perspective, but now I can show you more of of the world and all the different, you know, communities.
46:44
And at 8 years old, she took us to our first gay pride parade. Wow. Wow.
46:53
She bought us little buttons that said, straight but not narrow minded.
46:59
So, it just was never really, she never presented it as a negative thing.
47:05
It's just just like we, you know, in the black community, you know, this is the black community, these are just other communities and they're all awesome and we should learn as much as we can about them so we can know how best to respect respect them and you know, do more than just you know, what's the word when people tolerate folks.
47:26
You can celebrate people and you can let's let's get all let's all everybody to this party.
47:31
It's a good freaking time.
47:32
And so I was very lucky to be raised by parents who who moved that way.
47:36
And Dwayne, you know, coming from, you know, the South Side of Chicago and you know, having a mother who's now a pastor, you know, it was a different experience in terms of the LGBTQ+ community and those things were A, never spoken about and if they were, it was in to condemn, um, you know, hateful, you know, jokes, um, but just just scorn, a lot of scorn.
48:04
So, you know, when I came into the picture, uh, and Zaya was still a toddler, I was like, "Oh, okay."
48:13
I figured she and I I will refer to her as Zaya even though she went by another name at that time.
48:22
I recognized she might be part of the community, but, you know, see how this plays out.
48:27
And Dwyane was like, "No, no, no, mm-mm, no, no, no, no, no."
48:32
And then Zaya came out in third grade in Chicago.
48:37
And, you know, but by that time Zaya's been Zaya.
48:39
She's been very consistent, you know, in who she is and how she moves through the world.
48:44
She's been very consistent, whether you want to see it or not, she's been very consistent.
48:48
And she's basically been like, "You guys Have you guys caught up yet? Okay."
48:55
And so by the time she came out, you know, not that D had all the answers or I had all the answers, we we, you know, we were aware enough that, okay, this is her truth.
49:05
Um, and then we wanted to make sure that our home, um, and anywhere that we were, that we had control over anyway, was a sanctuary and stayed a sanctuary.
49:13
And so we gave her the agency of of saying telling us, "Who do you want to know?
49:18
Who do you Who do you not want to know?"
49:20
And she made up this list called the never ever list of all the people she did not want to to us to tell or her to tell.
49:29
Um, and then by the end of the night, everyone had flown off the never ever list cuz she got such great responses, and it was kind of like, "Okay, cool, yeah. All right."
49:37
Um, so by the time, you know, seventh grade rolled around and she was like and I asked her, you know, I go speak to all of her schools as, you know, we enroll the kids, I speak to all of their teachers and administrators.
49:49
And I'm like, "Here's the thing, want to make sure that we have a strong LGBTQ plus community that she's welcome into.
49:56
Um you know, want to make sure just everyone's, you know, on point with everything and there's I don't have to come up here with, you know, letting people have it cuz I will and um yeah.
50:07
Not to say I'm proud of this, but there might have been a a priest that was fired.
50:10
Um for, you know, not being on the right side of history. Yeah.
50:15
So, I'm not afraid to, you know, confront things, but um so I asked Zaya, "Hey, going to go to the school, you know, how do you want me to, you know, identify you?"
50:23
And she was like, you know, after back and forth, "Well, I'm a straight trans girl." I was like, "Okay." "Yep. Perfect. Okay."
50:35
Start to leave, then I'm like, "Oh, um what name do you want to go by?"
50:40
And she was like, "Zaya." "Okay. Pronouns?"
50:48
She was like, I was like, "There are options.
50:51
Pronouns, like which pronouns?"
50:51
She was like, "She and her. Thank you."
50:53
And I was like, "Okay, well, just want you to know that I know that there are other options."
51:00
And but she just, you know, I'd go up to the school and I'm like, "I don't even know what their reaction's going to be."
51:05
And they're like, "Okay, great. Yeah, no problem. Change the name here. No problem. Ba ba ba.
51:10
You know, we've we've, you know, you're not our first family, you won't be our last and we just want to make sure that Zaya feels comfortable and she's prepared and and set up to win and to succeed in school." And I'm like, "Okay.
51:23
Has it been that easy for every single space or person? Hell, no." Mhm.
51:30
But if you can't come into our home and love and accept and embrace and res- you know, um you know, celebrate everyone in here, then you're not welcome in here. Yeah.
51:43
And um everyone has been, you know, wonderful.
51:47
There's been some learning curves, but Zaya takes everything in stride.
51:50
Like she gave us a year to make sure that we got her pronouns right.
51:54
You know, it's it's a whole switch.
51:57
And she was like, I recognize that, you know, it's a hard thing to switch, so you guys have a year. Wow.
52:04
That's incre- That's incredibly like that's that's so mature and so kind and so like that's amazing.
52:08
That What a What a phenomenal Zaya's amazing.
52:12
That's That that requires so much patience. That's really special. And grace. And grace. Yeah.
52:21
she receives it from us and everyone else and she extends it as well.
52:22
But, you know, it there have been, you know, challenges, you know, to that.
52:30
And and we've had parents who said, "I just don't know know how to love them." Yeah. "How do I love them?"
52:37
You know, and when you're looking at the statistics of the suicide rates in the LGBTQ+ community, but specifically for trans kids um and trans people of color, those rates, you know, quadruple.
52:50
And her life is not up for debate. Mhm.
52:56
Your child's life is not up for debate.
52:59
Their identity is not up for debate.
53:01
They are who they are, and it is our job to love them and nurture them and respect them and guide them um and love them so fiercely to offer as much, you know, insulation as we can, because the world has not been as kind. And that is our job.
53:20
So so beautifully said, Gabrielle, and it's uh yeah, it's amazing to hear how much love and grace has come out in this conversation just from your spirit and your energy.
53:29
And we've been laughing and, you know, we've we've been we've been having a good time, too, but I feel like there's just so many deep underlying messages.
53:35
I know that we've taken up so much of your time today, but I I want to end with a few final questions.
53:40
Uh I wanted to ask you what you see as your your current focus, purpose, and and drive right now.
53:49
Like what is it at this stage in your life?
53:52
I mean, you know, in your book, there were so many I mean, just for anyone who's listening or watching, we have talked about like a tiny amount of what's what's inside this incredible book.
54:01
We've just scratched the surface, but all of these life experiences, where have they got you to right now?
54:06
Like what is your current purpose, drive, ambition, focus that gets you up in the morning right now? To put other people on.
54:12
Like I I used to love, you know, getting the call, "You got the job." I'm like, "Yes."
54:19
But nothing to me, you know, compares to professionally hearing that I've been a part of getting someone else on, you know, getting someone else a job, getting someone else an opportunity, helping someone else create their dreams, being able to do that through our production company, even through through shows like this.
54:38
It's It's about building community so we can share resources, we can share opportunities.
54:43
You know, there is something about you know, hoarding all the food on your plate where your plate is just stacked and overflowing and you look around and other people have nothing. Yeah.
54:56
That None of that feels good to me.
54:59
Um so any any anything I'm doing at this point is about creating more for everyone. I want us all to win. I want us all to eat.
55:10
I want us all to be healed and healthy and and not feel alone.
55:11
Um so when I get information, I share it.
55:15
And um you know, and and also when I'm when I hit roadblocks, I'll share it because just as I share, you know, some of my solutions and the way I've in my paths, um I'm so open to hearing other ways of getting from A to B. Yeah.
55:35
But you got to be open to do that. Yeah.
55:36
Gabrielle, that's beautiful.
55:36
Thank you so much for your time today.
55:38
We end every On Purpose episode with a fast five, so each question has to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum.
55:47
Uh, so Gabrielle Union, these are your five fast five.
55:49
Uh, first question, what is the best advice you've ever received?
55:54
It's okay to say I don't know. Great.
55:56
Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever received?
56:01
Snuggles is dead, now what?
56:04
Okay, question number three.
56:04
How would you How do you tell whether you're feeling like a good parent or not?
56:10
Um, I guess by how big the wine glass gets. That's a great answer.
56:18
All right, question number four.
56:19
Uh, what's the biggest lesson you've learned in the last 12 months?
56:24
That I don't have all the answers. Great.
56:26
And question number five, if you can make one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
56:33
At the moment, to get vaccinated. Amazing.
56:35
Gabrielle Union, everyone.
56:37
Gabrielle, thank you so much for your time. Thank you to your team.
56:38
And for anyone who's been listening or watching, uh, make sure you go and grab a copy of the book.
56:44
We'll have the link in the comments and the caption.
56:46
And for anyone else who's been listening or watching, make sure you tag both me and Gabrielle on Instagram and let us know what were the parts that stood out, the parts that resonated.
56:55
I hope that you're going to share this with a family member or friend who's experienced some of the things that Gabrielle's been talking about or some of the things that would move them and improve their life.
57:03
Uh, Gabrielle, thank you for joining us on On Purpose and I look forward to meeting you in person. No, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
57:12
Thanks so much for sharing your soul. I really appreciate it.
57:15
If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here.
57:19
I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book Think Like a Monk from thinklikeamonkbook. com.
57:29
Check below in the description to make sure you order today.