Most internet entrepreneurs, when they get into starting businesses, they do things that are either black hat or gray hat, and then they realize, I got to do things legit because I don't want to go to jail and I can make more money doing things ethically and not breaking the law.
Like you just like make so much more money being legit.
How on earth did you not learn that lesson earlier?
All right, today's pod is interesting.
We just had Billy McFarland in.
He's famous for the Fyre Festival thing, which basically was this like huge Coachella type event that went viral 4 years ago, and he ended up committing a ton of crimes that he admitted to and was charged and convicted of like 25 or 30 million dollars with the fraud.
We just had him on the pod.
Very confusing pod, Sean, I think.
Not confusing, but but like mixed emotions. Yeah, yeah.
I I mean, he's an interesting guy.
He's also complicated like most people.
And uh you know, I don't I don't know.
I think we I think it was pretty interesting.
We talked about a bunch of things.
We talked about kind of his origin story, how he got to the Fyre Festival, and almost like where it all went wrong.
So, where did he start making, you know, mistakes and then eventually committing crimes.
Uh we talked about life in prison and what that was like in solitary confinement and things like that.
We talked about what he's doing now, how he's trying to come back, and uh me and Sam are a little bit hard on his new idea, I would say.
Well, to the point of if this was a normal if this was just a normal person, random person on the street, I would not have been as harsh, but I felt like I I don't know, for whatever reason I felt like I had the license to be a little harsh on this one. Um we talked about that.
We talked about other ideas about what he could do or other business opportunities he sees.
Uh pretty fascinating guy. Very fascinating guy.
The thing that like that sits bad with me is or makes me confused is he's very likable.
He's a very likable person, incredibly charming, very charismatic, and I want him to win, but he did a lot of really bad [ __ ] And he seems a little a little coached in the sense that he's like right up front will say uh what I did was terrible, I deserve no sympathy, uh you know, I was wrong and I was an idiot, right?
And he's very quick to kind of own that, which is great.
You want somebody to own it, but it's also I think that's somebody who who understands, okay, I this is the message, I got to stay on this message, and um yeah, I I got to make it really clear where I stand on that.
It's like when you have like a star football player, star athlete in in high school, and you see them like doing bad [ __ ] off the field, and you're like, "Dude, you have it all, man. You've got the talent. Please don't blow this."
It It hurts us all to see someone with so many gifts do such bad [ __ ] And that's a little bit how I felt with this, and uh yeah, I'm I say this in the end, but I'm eager to see how this story ends.
I'm going to be following it, and I think it was a good pod.
Uh Ben, our producer Ben, thought uh it went great.
He was messaging us during it, but I uh I think people will like it. Yep. All right, enjoy.
All right, let's just get right into this.
So, it sounds like you have like staff.
Like you just asked somebody to get you a coffee.
So, are you like Are you back I mean, you're you're you're in the mix again, you're working?
Yeah, broke as hell, but uh taking advantage of, you know, anybody I can get to help me try to rebuild and start making things right.
And you have like a crazy restitution thing.
So, I we should explain kind of what the So, this is Billy.
Billy created Fyre Festival, most notably.
You may have seen, I don't know, the documentaries or whatever.
You just got out of prison, but one of the things that's associated with it is you have like more than 20 million or something that you have to pay back in restitution to some combination of investors, creditors, people like that? How does that work?
You Do you have to give them like every dollar or is it a certain percentage?
Like, how does that work?
Cuz that's a deep, deep hole. Yeah, and it's brutal.
And like, I just can't think about that that big number because then, you know, I'll sort of lose track about like what's happening today and tomorrow.
So, how it works is that I have to pay percentage of all of my personal income, you know, directly back to restitution. Like, after taxes?
They They calculate it on just like gross income.
So, totally pre-tax income.
So, if I make like a thousand dollars this week, I have a set percentage I have to pay on that thousand dollars.
But, what is what's the yeah. What's the percent?
Is it like crazy or is it like 5%? It's more than five.
I'm not sure like where it's going to end up.
It varies based on income.
So, I know what I have to pay right now, but I think it gets readjusted every couple of months.
And then, in addition to that, Pirate's giving 10% of all of its revenue back to restitution as well.
So, if Pirate gets a 100k sponsorship deal, like, it'll pay 10k right away.
And then, whatever I get as my like salary or income, I'll pay an additional percentage on top of that.
So, just trying to pay more than I have to.
Why are you doing this right now?
Why are you I mean, like, you know, you're in a different situation.
I I I firmly believe that I I I listened to your pod the pods that you've done.
I've watched the documentary. I've read a little bit.
Like, you made a massive mistake.
So, I think that you you you deserved to be punished.
And so, I don't feel sorry for that.
I don't feel sorry for you for having to do that.
I think five years is or four years, how much you served, that's that's a lot.
So, my my current stance is like, everyone deserves a second chance.
And if you if you do the crime and you have to do the time, like, you there should be a point where it's like, all right, you screwed up.
You get a you can try again. I feel that.
But, when I see you doing this podcast push right now, I'm like, should we Is he taking advantage of us?
Like why is this guy doing this right now?
Why is he What What is he going to What's he trying to sell?
Or Or is this therapeutic?
Or are you just trying to make a living?
Which What you know, what What's What's your motivation between this recent push?
Yeah, so like first of all, totally deserved what I got.
And sorry, I think there's like days where I felt like I got too much time and there's days where I felt like I didn't get enough just like based on everything else happening in the world.
So, deserved it was coming and like definitely not looking for sympathy.
I think there's two things here.
One is that by doing these podcasts, I'm getting great like inbound deal flow.
So, if three or four companies are listening to this and they're like, "Oh, wait, he actually does know how to market.
He can get us attention."
And they'll come and hire me, like that's amazing cuz that's my entire purpose of like doing this small media run right now.
I think it's like looking at your Twitter comments a little bit this morning before I came on the show.
A lot of people and other hosts have gotten the same feedback is like, "Why the hell would you give a con artist like any time of day?"
Um Loved your Loved your response, but I think the response to all those people is like What did I say?
What What What What You said like maybe an interesting conversation that will get us money. So, like What? I said transparency.
I said I said a interesting person or a an interesting person that would have an interesting conversation and it will get us a lot of views. Uh that's cool.
Like Like other people haven't been able to say that, so I think that's great.
But I think to them is that anybody who's taken life to the extreme or too far has learned like a lot of good and bad lessons from that.
So, like they can use me, right?
And if there's like one entrepreneur here who's trying to raise money and he or she thinks like, "Shit, this is a little harder than I thought 60 days ago."
And they're about to send out that monthly investor update, don't [ __ ] up your numbers.
Like don't go over the top to to raise that cash.
And like if I can stop one person, really cool.
But on the other end of the spectrum, if there's somebody who's going about it honestly and they're scared to kind of take that leap, like if I can inspire them to go and try to make their brand pop off, really cool as well.
So, I think there is lessons to be learned and people could kind of use all of my mistakes to help them wherever they are in their entrepreneurial journey.
And you you are kind of a hustler, so you uh uh we'll kind of go fast through it, but you you basically, when you were in middle school, started creating projects.
I I don't even want to say company cuz like, you know, I don't know how much how much of a company it is when you're in middle school, but like you were building products and uh launching them as websites. That's right. Is that right? Like in middle school? Yeah.
Just basically started doing super basic HTML CSS in like fifth and sixth grade.
And so, this is what, 20 21 22 years ago.
And it was pretty much like the wild wild west days of the internet.
And started a couple like web hosting companies and basic social networks, and that was really my foray into the world of entrepreneurship and technology.
And so, you you make those sites, you end up selling them or you sold at least one of them uh for like what?
Like uh a big win or a small win?
What what would you do when you were kind of like you probably were in sixth and seventh grade.
Yeah, these are a couple thousands of dollars.
So, like life-changing to, you know, a kid who just wants to buy candy, but you know, at this point kind of irrelevant, but I think like kind of got me into the game.
Um started a little bit of a bigger media site called 24 Scene in high school and sold that 24 Scene? Yes.
Sold to a company called Buddy TV out of Seattle when I was 16.
And what what what did that do? What what was 24 Scene?
It was a content network and I loved the TV show 24, so was basically clipping, you know, snippets of the 24 show, and this is before streaming. The Jack Bauer 24? Yeah, exactly.
So, it was hard to get like actual media of the shows.
This is all based on like, you know, Fox like aired it and then there really was very little media afterwards.
So, I was taking like the show that aired and clipping it up and ended up doing it for a half a dozen TV shows and I had this business partner at the time who was in his mid-30s in Michigan who I never met and he like orchestrated the sale and then he paid me out on Western Union every two weeks for like the remainder of my high school.
So, that was pretty crazy.
How how much did you how much you make during that?
It was like tens of thousands of dollars like but at the time it was it was wild for me.
And from there is you you went to school and you you graduated but you never had a a real job, did you?
Went to college um basically started living off of my 24 scene capital under this little suitcase under my bed my freshman year of college and for the first time I started going out like going to nightclubs, going to dinners, like exploring what every 18-year-old I think man like wants to see what's out there in the world and blew all my cash in a couple of months.
So, I'm like [ __ ] now I'm broke sitting in my college in this like small town.
I can't afford to like try to find a car to take me to New York City anymore. Like what can I do?
So, got back to what I knew which was basic programming and started a social networking website called Spling during my freshman year of college and that introduced me to this entire world of like venture capital and angel investing and essentially dropped out of school halfway-ish through my freshman year to to work on Spling and then I started this whole like run of venture capital backed startups.
My um my wife uh through friends of friends somehow uh had some run-ins with you at Penn.
Like like a and she she like good run-ins or you know, she someone you you must have dated someone or friends with of someone and she and she uh they would tell me stories about uh they're like, "Yeah, we knew him and he would always rent like these fat cars and drive us all and pay for everything to go to New York City from Philly."
Uh and like we just thought like he just had some business and no one knew what it was.
No, it wasn't anything inappropriate, but it was just like he just like just we all knew it.
This guy who must have had some money through some internet companies and he uh he treated all all of us on a regular basis.
Yeah, so I went to went to Philly for a company called Dream Adventures, which is kind of like this accelerator incubator program.
And yeah, I was dating a girl at the time who was I think I think it's a sophomore now at Penn.
So I should have been a sophomore in school.
So all my like peers and friends were were in college and like so I'd be like at Dreamit trying to raise money by day and then like at the terrible like college parties by night and then obviously try to take them to New York.
So what what what triggered this switch from like uh I'm a kid programmer who likes to make hobbyist websites like, you know, scenes for my favorite TV show 24 to like I'm trying to be the man.
Cuz it seems like at some point you all your business ventures switched to like things that were super cool, right?
You did the Black Card credit card thing.
Uh you did Fire obviously, which was like, you know, the next Coachella.
So at some point you switched from like kind of hobbyist websites to how do I be the cool guy, you know, the big man on campus type of thing.
What what triggered that that switch for you?
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
And it was almost like I was living these alternative lives and not really fitting in either one.
I was a college kid, but trying to raise money from venture capitalists when, you know, at my little school majority of the students haven't heard of the word like venture capital in their life.
Then so I'd go hang out with these venture capitalists who were titans of industry or you know, successful angel investors and kind of go back to the college realm.
So I was always kind of interested in merging the two worlds.
So when I'm hanging out with the VCs, the college kids all want access to this and they would hire me to help like market or consult.
So I was always kind of hustling and trying to make side income to to fund a lifestyle and trying to kind of keep up with this new world that my basic programming had been giving me access to.
And then at what point so the was like your first kind of it wasn't a real win like you didn't exit, but you raised I think four or six million dollars.
Was that the the Magne- Is it called Magnesis? Yes.
So, um turned 19, graduated from the Dream Adventures, moved Splang to the second ever WeWork Labs uh down on Barrow Street in New York.
And I was there at WeWork now around these like 30-ish, you know, hustling entrepreneurs all trying to make it.
I'm a kid and went out to dinner with this like a group of these friends I was starting to meet in New York who are a little bit older, a little bit more established.
And one of them pulls out this black American Express Centurion card and kind of slams it on the table to show off.
And I'm like, "Fuck, I have $40 in my Chase account.
Like, how how can I do this?"
So, went back to my WeWork office, went online to Alibaba before Alibaba was really like a mainstream thing uh particularly like in New York in the US.
Bought these black metal cards and bought a credit card copier.
They kind of came in the mail, took my Chase blue debit card, copied it onto this black card, went to the pizza place across the street from the WeWork.
Guy was treating me like I was royalty.
Went back into the office and just sold these cards to all the entrepreneurs in the WeWork office.
And then Magnesis was born.
And how big did that business get before it uh before it went south?
So, Magnesis did total like 11, 12-ish million in revenue over 3 years.
And my biggest mistake was getting distracted by Fyre and the Fyre Festival.
I understand this is forwarding like years in advance, but in the run-up to Fyre Festival for the four or five months, I just started trying to get money from anywhere and everywhere and basically milked the Magnesis customer base as much as I could.
And then when Fyre crashed, Magnesis went down with it.
So, just not seeing it through was such a fuck-up.
But Magnesis was just it was just literally like it's not a bank account.
It was just literally a physical card as well as some perks.
Like you would get like discounts to certain concerts.
I guess this where fire kind of got inspiration from.
Discounts to certain clubs, I guess, or like a discount to like a private jet service.
So, you just must have negotiated the deals or probably even white-labeled like some other company that had found cool deals and you for $300 you got this sick uh card.
Like literally physically just a card with your same bank account.
You had access to like a townhouse.
I forget what you called it. A townhouse.
Uh and you got to go to some parties and you got some perks.
Is that basically the model? Exactly.
Then what was really interesting though was the members were bringing all the perks and benefits.
So initially I sold these cards and so now let's say we sold a couple hundred cards.
I'm like, "Wow, our member base is super interesting.
Whether they're entrepreneurs, they're people in all these different industries that my friends don't really have access to.
Like let's get a space they can all come and connect."
So went and rented a series of lofts and townhouses that I couldn't afford where basically members can come and hang out anytime.
And then as Magnises grew, we just built an app where members would come to us saying, "Hey, I work at this brand."
Whether it's like this plane company, this fitness studio, this fashion brand.
"Let's do something special for the rest of the members."
And they would basically pay us to advertise and give access to cool [ __ ] to the members and the members would pay us an annual fee to get access to these perks.
So it's kind of interesting where we're making money from both sides and then relying on the actual member base to create the offering. Was it profitable?
So I was just so bad with financial management that we raised, you know, a few million bucks for Magnises, but we never had more than two months of runway in the entire history of the company.
So I'd raise a round and like 80% of that round was already spent in terms of like bills owed to employees, contractors, agencies, whatever.
So it's like always a kiss of death.
Like, "Okay, I raised a million bucks, but [ __ ] I owe 800 grand and now we have two months of runway left."
I think my biggest inability was to communicate like that problem to investors.
I just kept saying like things are great, you know, you'll raise a million bucks and we're off to the races.
I couldn't just like really explain how much we needed and why we needed it.
And that caused us to have to basically become profitable super early on.
So, just started monetizing the user base way more than I should have, which I think diminished the value of the brand.
And for like the last year and a half to years of Magnises, like we weren't profitable, but we were paying all of our bills just based on revenue.
We just like tried to monetize too quickly and too fast to keep up with my like crazy expenses.
But even Magnises Magnises had issues.
Like there's like stories of like, you know, they members saying, "We thought we were buying tickets to blank, but turns out like we didn't actually have them."
Or maybe like Hamilton tickets, I think there was a story around that.
Like you even had issues then.
What What uh Uh what what were the What were those issues?
So, when Fyre Festival came and I just started going down this terrible rabbit hole.
I needed money from everywhere and anywhere, and that included overselling and trying to overpromise things to Magnises members to get that capital.
And it just like took everything down and like I I was wrong and I was like lying everywhere thinking I could make these miracles happen, and sometimes we did, but more often than not we we crashed and burned at the end.
So, I just like totally just like lost track of all the good that was happening.
And I know you you feel bad and you probably feel, you know, some shame and all all all these negative things.
Do you ever just laugh at like Wow, what the hell like what did I do? Where did this go?
How great How far did this thing go?
It's like there's a reason there's documentaries about it.
It's literally like a movie.
Is there any part of you that just sort of looks at this and says, "I can't believe how far I let this thing go and how far it went." Totally.
And like I was like looking at and trying to think through the SBF scenario, you know, for the past couple of weeks.
And I think at the end of the day, like he's obviously in a completely different stratosphere, but it's really in his position, it's really hard to say no to someone with $10 billion, right?
I don't care like how smart or how wealthy you are, so much of our decision-making process is based on social proof.
And when you meet someone with that kind of capital, it immediately checks off all these like subconscious boxes that create this phenomenon of social proof.
And I think that like to a much larger scale, that's what happened to him.
But it's also happened to me where I had thousands of customers or thousands of members and all these talent and artists who are promoting the brand.
Now I was in a position where I was just like way too young, way too immature, and people who should have helped me were almost scared to say no, and I kind of like relished and thrived off of that, and this led me down this terrible, terrible rabbit hole.
And when they started saying no, I was too like in my own head, where oh, you know, I pulled just pulled this off and proved you wrong before.
I just like didn't know how to press that red button to stop.
And that was like one of my biggest issues.
I think the reason you're interesting because every entre We have a lot of I mean, people who like listen to this pod are like entrepreneurial.
And everyone like most internet entrepreneurs, when they get into starting businesses, they do things that are either black hat or gray hat, and then they realize they realize like, okay, this is sick.
I know how to make money, like I'm proficient at this skill set, but like I got to do things legit because I'm going to make way more money if I and I did the same thing.
I used to do these like I mean, I've done criminal [ __ ] as well.
And I'm like, what the hell am I thinking?
I should do things the right way because I don't want to go to jail, and I can make more money doing things ethically and not breaking the law.
Like you just like make so much more money being legit.
How on earth did you not learn that lesson earlier?
I think the craziest thing is I didn't know really what failure was until I failed on such a massive scale.
Um I think part of what let me go so far is I obviously had as many losses if not more than every other entrepreneur along the journey, but I was really good or I guess really bad at blocking out that noise.
I was so focused on like this end goal of nothing else matters.
Like let me put my blinders on just like keep running forward and I just kept getting jaded to failures until the failure became so big that I'm I'm locked in solitary confinement.
And what was the end goal?
Like for for for me it's like I want to make a certain amount of money so I can have a certain house so I don't have to worry anymore so I can spend my monthly however much I want and then there's there's I me and I mean all of us have some ego thing of like I want to prove to people that I'm legit. Yeah.
Um, what what what was your but I like had a certain money goal in mind.
I'm I imagine Sean's the same way.
He's like well I want this lifestyle. I want this.
What what's what's your motivating factor in all this?
Like and you say I want to have a $100 million net worth by a certain age or I want girls to have sex with me which is like we all obviously do.
Like what's like the motivating factor? I want to fit in.
I think I I had two big like insecurities and drives.
One is those initial investors who backed me when I was 18.
I wanted to prove to them that they were right and fire was seven years later from that seven eight years later after that.
So one I wanted to prove they were right and I was too insecure to to show any kinks in my armor to them.
And two is I wanted to be the guy that just like took you to wild crazy experiences.
And I'm like wow, like this whole program thing is taking me into this world of entertainment.
I'm hanging out with like rappers and models and comedians and my friends don't believe me.
Like I want to be that guy who can take you from your shitty college or from your like shitty desk job to this private island where the who's who of the world is letting down their guards and having a blast.
So it was partly like proving myself to investors and two partly proving myself to friends that like I'm the guy that made this life experience happen that you just can't get anywhere else.
We should explain the origin.
So you you go from Magnises I don't know what's in between, but at some point you create this app called the Fire app.
And the Fire app was meant to like let you book uh artist, right?
So you could be like, "Oh, I want uh you know, whatever, Timbaland to perform at at a party."
I can send a booking request and he can accept or reject and there's no middleman or middle you know, less middleman in the middle.
And so, you know, sort of create a marketplace for you know, people to book these artists. That was the core idea.
And Fyre Festival was a marketing stunt to promote the app, right?
But at some point the two kind of almost flipped in importance and Fyre Festival became the the overarching thing.
Fyre Festival starts uh from what I understand because you meet a guy who's like, "Yo, I have this little plane and I fly to these random Caribbean islands."
And you used to go on your weekends, you know, in this like four-person plane, hang out, come back.
And you were like, "Wow, this is so dope."
People are like, "Wow, that sounds so dope."
You're like, "Yeah, you should come do this, too."
And somehow your experience of like flying to these remote islands and having a having a good time became, "What if we fly 3,000 people down to this island and we do this like festival, this Coachella-like festival?"
Did I get that right so far?
I think you told the story better than me. Okay, perfect.
So But but somewhere along the way you get something wrong.
I'm fast-forwarding this cuz I think, you know, it's documented in other places, but I do want to explain it for somebody who's listening.
So somewhere along the way you're like, "All right, we're doing this.
We're doing Fyre Festival."
And you start promoting this thing.
And your method of promoting was what?
What was the marketing game plan to promote Fyre Festival?
So like it all kind of stems down to I was for all of my terrible flaws, I was really good at taking a tangible asset that most people didn't have and using that to launch a business.
So Magnises had this physical card that would cost me like $2 to make per card and then a crazy townhouse.
So, my entire target demographic didn't have access to a black card.
They didn't have access to a multi-million dollar townhouse in downtown Manhattan when they're 23 years old.
So, I took these two like inaccessible things, gave it to my customers and used that to launch a business on top of. Fast forward to Fire.
Now, I'm trying to cater to these, you know, B-list rappers and comedians who need small bookings.
Um these people aren't Jay-Z, they aren't Drake, they don't have their own private island.
So, here's where I come in.
Okay, now guys, we have our own private island.
You want to be involved with me and then I used that to hopefully build the Fire booking app.
So, all my marketing strategy came down to taking a tangible good or service that wasn't available to a certain audience, giving it to them, making them feel like it's theirs and they own it, and using that to build a business.
So, that was the entire logic behind like the Fire app and Fire Festival component.
And as you perfectly said, the importance quickly flipped as we launched the marketing for Fire Festival and Fire Festival became it and Fire app became, you know, a second thought for that period of time.
It's not like a bad plan.
It's not a bad idea, I guess.
We we said this on the pod I think when the documentaries came out.
We were like, honestly, it was a dope idea and some but like if it had just been done, like and it wasn't even like it's not like Theranos where you're like, that was a dope idea if somebody had just done it right.
It's like, well, maybe it's technically impossible.
Your [ __ ] Your thing was possible.
You just had shitty like logistics and operations and poor planning.
You just threw a You just threw it like the the idea of the event and then the actual the actual event did not live up to to to to the hype, but your thing was totally possible.
Um what What went wrong there?
Why Why were you not able to to pull off what you had sold?
The dream that you had sold where you had Bella Hadid and you had [ __ ] I don't know, Kendall Jenner and all the all these people promoting that hey, we're going to this thing.
It's going to be, you know, whatever, the party of the century.
You sold the tickets, so you got that part right.
It's just you didn't deliver the party.
You know what the craziest thing is?
I think lying and unable to show weaknesses made the festival fail.
And I truly believe that my backers at the time were well connected and smart enough where I came to them and said, "Hey look guys, we did this great marketing campaign, but I have no idea what the [ __ ] I'm doing."
They would have found like the best festival people in the world to come and actually execute this.
But I was so scared to show that I couldn't handle it that I kept saying everything is great and everything is perfect and that pushed away the people that would have helped me.
So like literally lying, I think, doomed the festival from day one post announcement.
Who were the big backers?
Was it VCs or or or family offices or what?
A handful of venture funds and then, you know, 25 individuals everywhere from like larger family offices down to just smaller angels.
Who Who was the biggest fund or most well-known fund?
Uh I just don't want to throw anybody under the bus. Yeah. Oh okay.
I thought I wasn't sure if it was public.
Uh I I I think that some of the investor list was a good portion of the investor list, I believe, was sealed in the court files and I didn't ask for it to be sealed.
I think other people did, so I just don't want to, you know, Sure. don't want to do that.
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And so you uh you're like, "Okay, I I could have asked for help from uh or organized people."
And this is where I think things get a little tricky. So, Mhm.
you brought up SBF um Yeah.
I've I brought up Theranos.
We're talking about Fyre Festival.
I think there's always a question of like, was this intentionally supposed to be a fraud?
Like, oh, I'm just going to trick people and run away.
And uh you know, like with FTX right now, that's a question.
Like, did something happen that you weren't really paying attention to and then things got out of hand?
Or from the beginning, oh, you were like, I'm just going to trick people and take their money.
Um for you, where did it where did it start?
And like, was it well-intentioned at the beginning and where did it turn?
At what point did you realize, oh, I'm I'm I got to just say this because I got to get to the next dollar.
I got to get to the next the next milestone.
So, truly tried to execute the event and literally up until people were arriving to the festival, I thought it was going to work.
And obviously that's so stupid looking back.
Yeah, how how how can you say that?
You you knew you had like [ __ ] you know, tents and like grilled cheese sandwiches for for people who ordered villas.
Like, what How could you How could you still believe that right up till the event?
Are you sober the this entire time, by the way?
Uh never did drugs, but was like drinking a lot. But no drugs. way too much. Never.
Like, I've smoked weed maybe six times in my life, but I think it's like a common, you know, people were saying I was on coke or whatever.
Never tried coke in my life.
So, they got a hard time Okay, so yeah, back to So, you're you're you're in a sober-ish mindset and you actually think it's going to work the day of. Or the day before.
And I'm like, here's my thought process.
The island is so beautiful.
We have this like local team who you couldn't script these characters.
They have the boats, they have the jet skis, they're going to take people out.
Like, we know how to do these experiences.
We have some crazy pilots.
Like, it's just going to be like a wild weekend that you've never had before.
And we have 30 artists who are paid.
So, you're going to have like A-list talent.
One of the most beautiful places in my opinion, like in the Atlantic Ocean.
And amazing group of these like movie-scripted local characters who have toys for you to play on.
So, I thought that like okay, they'll go back and they'll have a shitty ticket We don't We don't have food and shelter and bathrooms, but we got nature. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Who needs food when you have two big But actually like I think the craziest thing is if we market it like that, it would have been amazing.
Like hey guys, I can't figure out the logistics.
I can't afford to to build like 500 houses, but I somehow came up with the 5 million bucks for the artists.
We have these great people.
We have this great island.
Like bring a sleeping bag and figure this [ __ ] out.
I think if that mindset shift was marketed, people would have been A more excited and they would have been like felt like they're owning the adventure and it would have been almost like how early 2000 years were and like the marketing like killed me at the end.
Like the marketing sold tickets, but it also made it fail.
What would the ideal outcome had been?
Let's say that like it just so happened to work.
How much revenue and profit would it have made?
And like what would the ideal situation had had been? So, I have no idea.
Like my entire Are you [ __ ] kidding me?
How do you not know this?
So, Like I I We had a budget for $10 million for the festival.
I didn't have $10 million.
So, I'm like okay, I can reasonably raise $10 million just off of this brand that we're building right now for the festival.
Um ended up spending way more than that.
And it got to the point where I would go to sleep with no money in the bank, wake up, and know that like that day I had to raise a certain dollar amount just to survive.
And some days it was 50 grand, some days it was $4 million.
So, I'd wake up at, you know, 9:00 a. m.
and know that I have until 2:00 p. m.
to get X dollars in the bank to then rewire it out before the before the day ended.
So, my life was [ __ ] hell and I just couldn't like zoom out.
So, I was stuck okay, today is $2 million.
I can call this guy, I can call this guy.
And like at the end of the day, things keep getting bigger.
The brand is going to be so big if this festival works, everybody's going to get paid.
And I just didn't like know how to really run the numbers at that point.
So, how much did you end up spending? We raised 26 or 27.
Um but we were making money from other sources.
Like we were selling tickets on top of that.
We were getting sponsors.
Magnesis was making money.
I was doing consulting jobs.
So, it's like literally like every day was just a different angle for money.
So, you spent maybe like 30 million plus.
I would say in the 6-month period it was probably closer to 40.
Okay, so you spent 40 million.
What and the tickets so you sold 7,000 tickets, is that right?
I think it was probably just under 6,000.
It was just like around 3,000 people per weekend.
Some were given away for free and some were sold.
So, we sold a little under 6,000. let's call it 5,000. What was the revenue? 5,000 times what?
What's the average ticket?
What were you selling these for?
So, the average the the the the median ticket price was like 12 to 1,500.
However, we sold like a handful of outlier tickets for like a couple hundred thousand dollars plus per ticket.
So So, then 5,000 times 2,000 you're at what's that? 10 million.
You're at 10 million in sales.
Uh and then did you have another couple million from sponsors or anything like that?
Yeah, and like the issue is that some of the ticket money was held in escrow.
Some of it was for like these yachts and boats.
So, it wasn't like pure 10 million dollars of free cash flow.
It was like everything was held up or not held up in certain ways.
I think like my Stripe account got frozen with like 700 grand in it the day the festival got canceled.
So, it's like you know, money was held in a bunch of different sources and areas.
So, the the event itself didn't make any sense, right?
It was like we're going to make 10 million, we're going to spend 40.
But but the brand made made no sense. Made no sense.
The brand is going to carry the weight.
You you but you could have gotten so much more profit just by running a a 10 million 40 million dollars of Facebook ads. You know what I mean?
Like this is just like a a better or a slightly different version of Cameo or something like that.
Like these marketplaces are tried and true.
Uh an event would have been cool if it were like a break-even or a slight loss, but that Yeah.
But but put it this way, like as for as wrong as things are and like I can't do this tomorrow, but if I did Fyre Festival again in 3 years, I think almost all of the first group as well as the rest of like pop culture would buy tickets just to be there to see how bad it is, right?
Like the brand the brand value is there.
Just like how can I do it appropriately Are you tempted?
pick the right time to do it, you know what I mean?
I mean I have to do it again.
I just can't do it while I'm on probation.
I can't do it this year and next year, but you know, it has to be done again.
And I think no matter what success or failures I find along the way in tech like until I execute Fyre 1.
5 have you seen this new company Pirate? Go to the website.
I I haven't gone to the website. Let's let's do it.
Dude, trust me, go to it. It's p y r t dot com.
Billy, like this is the same [ __ ] that you're doing a little bit.
Like it's it's all like you said you could program like like when I see what you're doing and I you had you did the Met Gala thing where you where you got in trouble for scamming people out of that.
I'm like A, just do a [ __ ] course, dude.
Just create a course and make two million like me and Sean make seven figures a year from this stupid stuff. It's not stupid.
It provides value, but I mean it's like insignificant compared to an event.
Or like you said you like to program and you like content sites like just do something like boring and straight.
Why are you doing this Pirate thing?
It's like the same [ __ ] There's so many things that's going to go that could potentially go wrong.
It's just the the the stakes are so much higher than just creating some boring ass software. I hear you.
Um I think Pirate is actually Is that what you were talking about the whole time, dude? No.
Uh Billy, we have uh 3,000 people coming tomorrow. I hear you.
No, you you might very well be right and I think the thing that we're getting back to with Pirate is like I'm not trying to host a thousand people on an island. It's not going to work.
I want to get back to those trips on the small planes with a dozen people or two dozen people that did work well for a couple of years.
And if I have to be like a tour guide for a few years in my life and like eat [ __ ] like I'm going to go do that, but I can give a couple of dozen people this amazing adventurous experience.
And then while I'm doing that I'd like to find interesting ways to broadcast those experiences to all of their followers and then give their followers a way to get involved.
So I'm not trying to figure out the logistics to host thousands of people.
I know I can host two dozen people and if I can take five years to build like really interesting like virtual reality esque tech that allows anybody to like watch and actually influence what's happening.
I think that's like a really cool win and way to kind of get back to what I'm good at. This is a horrible idea. Yeah, dude.
Like It's I I actually don't think it's a horrible idea if it like I think you potentially are you're you're um You rank so high in capability and so high in in ignorance like and that's like a perfect combination I think of starting a business which is like this like confidence of like I think I could pull this off and I'm capable of some things.
That's actually a beautiful combination.
But you also have this third part of the of the pie chart where it's just like reputation and like past and owing money.
I just don't understand why you're doing this.
It just you can you you are brilliant at a lot of things.
It just seems like such a start like just a boring ass agency that makes 20 million a year and 10 million in profit.
Yeah, if you just did like an event like a stunt marketing agency or uh or something like that. we have that.
We're announcing it today actually.
It's called the Pirate Collective.
And that's that's how we're funding that's how we're trying to fund I guess our tech is.
So so let's walk through this.
Okay, so I'm on the Pirate I'm on the Pirate website.
And it says there's a picture of a private island.
So we're we're already getting flashbacks of Fyre. Can I Yeah.
And then it says join the crew.
A pirate is somebody who turns the impossible into adventure.
It says, "Give me your phone number."
And then and then it says, "Join the treasure hunt virtual reality."
So, what you're saying from what what I just gathered of what you just described is that you're going to take you know, six to 15 people at a time on those like little planes to the islands like you used to do where it's not such a heavy logistical lift. Um Yeah.
Those people are going to have a great time.
They'll pay five grand or 10 grand or something. I'm just guessing here.
They'll pay a lot of money to have this really cool adventurous experience.
And then you're going to use, you know, video plus maybe virtual reality to broadcast that experience to other people who can't afford to go and or maybe their friends and their social media. Um Yeah.
And they get to maybe buy a virtual ticket to kind of attend the party that way.
And you're going to do that a bunch of times.
And did I describe it right or did I I'm just guessing based on what you said what you said? Absolutely.
To to the last thing that you're missing is that the people who are basically So, essentially we're going to partner with this little hotel.
They'll handle all the hospitality and logistics.
We'll host artists there on regular basis.
We'll rig the hotel with these 360 cameras.
Live stream everything that's happening.
Then give the people who are watching the live stream the ability to buy in and affect what's happening on the island.
So, they could like have one of the artists go to the recording studio and impact the creative process when they're making their song.
Or they can buy the talent like a drink, you know, and make them take a tequila shot.
Dude, you should just have gone for being Mr. Beast.
Like we we hung out with Mr. Beast and Yeah.
your wiring just like that nut.
And and I feel like if you just channeled your energy towards how do I do the craziest thing that's going to make the craziest video that 20 million people are going to watch and then continually one up yourself.
Uh I feel like that would work.
That's my suggestion to you.
You don't even have to cancel that.
And you and you absolutely have the you have the charisma and you have the storytelling ability.
I'm like, just dude, just do just just make you and like a small team doing the crazy [ __ ] and do ad dollars.
But it sounds like you're sharing you want to share your screen.
You can share your screen.
I I think I have you clicking around. I bet you Sure.
I don't know if I'm supposed to share this, but okay.
But uh I want to get back to what you just said though. I like that attitude.
I like that So um this was an island we were working with.
Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to go to the Bahamas.
So this is just pure like demo purpose.
But the idea is to take like a one-to-one virtual representation of a property, track where all the talent is in real time, track where all the toys are in real time, and then people can click into various live streams.
And once they're watching a live stream, hopefully watching their favorite talent, they could actually choose these actions to affect what's really happening there.
So it could be as crazy as me swimming in the reef and the users deciding to chum the water and giving the sharks in the area.
I think a lot of people want to see see that happen or as simple as buying somebody a drink.
But And what what what would the financials of this be like?
I mean I'm sure you've now thought about that more.
You're like, what would the P&L What what would you What the P&L that you're thinking? No, surely he has.
It's like one day one day it could do this.
What what's that one day?
So a million people paying 20 cents to ask a talent to do something or to contribute an action towards like the real world.
So if everybody pays 20 cents to chum the water and a million people are chumming the water, then that's kind of where the financials come in.
But that's sorry, I can't do that math.
Just tell me like in in in 5 years are are are you in your head you're like, I think we could do like a hundred million dollars in eight year like what what what's the You're not going to get me arrested, Sam.
Like I don't want to promise any revenue. No no, sorry. Don't promise.
I'm just saying like when you're laying in bed you're like, I think this could become like a hundred million dollar company by doing this.
I think what's the way I think about this and my logic could be wrong is that once again I we're not going to be using the Bahamas but for example the Bahamas gets around four-ish million tourists a year and if we're doing these really interesting broadcasts we can have more than four four million people in a single day like virtually come to the island.
So if we can just like totally destroy their tourism numbers on a virtual scale I think it's a big revenue opportunity.
So okay so where did you come up with this idea?
Were you in prison or was it once you got out that you were like all right I'm going to start I brainstormed.
No I was in solitary confinement and it's like totally totally confined and you know a lot of it was just like reflection and then a lot of it too was I want to get outside of these walls and just like get back to adventure and then find a way to share this.
We should say by the way That's kind of where I got You got into solitary because you attempted to do a podcast from inside prison. Yeah. A terrible idea.
What the First did you know that was not allowed?
Was that I didn't even realize that would be such a faux pas that that that was that would be such a big rule breaker?
that would be a faux pas.
I think the biggest thing is Dude they read your mail and [ __ ] you can't like and like each [ __ ] each inmate you have like different rules for you right?
Like if a journalist calls you and you do an interview is that allowed? That's allowed. Um I was wrong.
The toughest part though was like it was a gray area.
I think if it was like a clear violation of the rules my punishment would have been like less strict.
I used the payphone like there available payphones.
Um but at the same time like you can't cause attention to the jail right? And that's what I did.
So I understand like why it was like so incredibly stupid but I think if I had a clear violation of the rules I would have gone to solitary for like 45 days and not seven months ago.
had a podcast host call you on the payphone and then you did your side of the podcast from the payphone in like Exactly.
or 15 minute increments right?
Cuz that's what you were allowed. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
I mean I I why you think that's great.
It's like what's the difference between prostitution and and pornography, you know, it's like I don't know if there's a camera there.
It's like you're you're safe.
Like you know, I mean like you're like playing this like like I don't know if I would be if I would be risking things at that moment.
I mean I I've I've when I was in college, I did stupid stuff and I got in trouble and I remember getting in trouble and thinking like I don't ever want to come back to jail again and more so it solitary confinement seems like I would kill myself.
I think I would want to commit suicide.
Like that sounds like that's like the 7 months in a box.
It seems like the worst That's the worst possible outcome.
Let alone like you know, getting life, you know, like El Chapo and some of these guys in in these like Florence and all these like high high level security.
What was that like 7 months being in that cell?
I get anxious just thinking about it.
I actually think that it's counterproductive in terms of reform, if that kind of makes sense.
And the other time in jail, like I don't think it's going to have like long last long lasting negative impacts on my life.
I did 10 months total in solitary.
One time for three, one time for seven.
I think like that actually makes it more likely that I make a mistake in the future.
And obviously if I do make a mistake, it's totally on me.
But like the mental hangover that I have where it's like somebody out there could snap their fingers and put me into a concrete box. Like that's scary.
Like that's what gives me the nightmares at night.
And I think that like if anything that makes, you know, ideas bigger or different because you're you're kind of fearful of that outcome. So I don't know. It's it's [ __ ] hard.
And like there are guys who have done way more than 10 months and I can't imagine what they feel like.
But I think that's like the worst part of the experience and actually just just counterproductive.
Did you know it was going to be 7 months or is like do do you know there's an end point or you didn't know? No.
And I think like if they said hey, this is 7 months, then you're getting out and then you're going home a year after that, it would have been totally different.
But the fact that they kept [ __ ] with me, basically saying, "Hey, you're never getting out of here.
You're going to get in trouble more."
Like, that was the biggest mind [ __ ] You just like wake up every morning and be like, "This is never going to end."
Why like you mean the the guards were just [ __ ] Yeah, in the jail.
They literally in response to the podcast, they tried to send me to a a terrorist facility called the the CM the CMC in Marion, Illinois.
You can like look at their inmates on Wikipedia.
Like, I'd be one of two non-terrorists in that facility.
And they would come and [ __ ] with me and like pass like program statements under my door for this communication management unit.
Like, "Here's where you're going, McFarland."
And like I thought they were bluffing.
And then like a day later, "Oh, we submitted you there."
And like they legitimately tried to send me to a terrorist facility.
And it's like you're never getting out.
So, what's going to happen? That is [ __ ] crazy.
I I think that like whenever I was thinking of I remember talking to my wife at the time when you were getting in trouble and I'm like, "Unfortunately, I think four or five years probably is a fair is is a probably a fair punishment.
I don't think solitary is a fair punishment.
I don't think being like tormented is fair though, you know, like say You went to jail not because you threw a bad festival.
You went to jail for What was the exact reason the the Lying to Lying to investors.
And like And you lied what?
About the financials or what did you lie about? Yes. Badly.
Financials, revenue, personal, company. And what were you doing?
You're just literally making [ __ ] up What were you doing?
Wire fraud, I think is the the main charge, but there were a couple couple surrounding charges as well.
But basically, anytime you lie to get money, it's essentially wire fraud in the eyes of the the federal government.
you were making fake documents.
Like you were photoshopping things and making fake PDFs, I think, right?
Yeah, I made I just made fake like Excel documents, basically, saying, "Hey, our income is X million this month." And it wasn't close.
So, I was, you know, totally guilty.
It was It wasn't like It wasn't a gray area.
I was black and white wrong. Right.
was better than I advertised, which is obviously impossible.
Like, still would have gone to jail.
When you um So, I remember being like, "Okay, wow, that's crazy."
Uh sounds like, you know, he got kind of in over his head, you know, and I I was having some sort of sympathy in a way.
And then there were there were some story like when you were on probation, then you did something else.
You created something called like VIP access or some [ __ ] like that. Yeah.
And then that was also like, you know, you know, forget little forget-y in some way. What was that?
And how do you defend that part, right?
Cuz that's after the fact now. Yeah.
And you're you're already on probation and and was it just like I just had a habit of doing this?
What what was going on there?
The only defense is that I was a [ __ ] idiot.
Like, there's no other way to to to get around that.
Um yeah, I was totally wrong.
And I kind of got in this mindset where it's all about the money, and like that's probably wrong.
But, then figured, "Hey, I need to find a way to pay everybody back."
And let's get back to what I was doing at Magnises at the end to to kind of fund Fire Festival, which is to sell these tickets. Right.
And You needed like a You needed like a like if I was your father, I would have just I would have punched you in the [ __ ] face.
And I'd be like, "Billy, like this is you're you're hurting me.
You're like you're you're hurt like you needed like a like a like someone just to be like, 'Dude, you are so talented, but you are [ __ ] this up so much.
It's like these are such clear mistakes.
I don't understand why I don't understand like Did you not have a friend that was like like you were trying to trying to do a quick fix.
If I can get the money back, if I can pay people back, then I'm not going to get in trouble about the other thing.
Is that is that accurate as what you were thinking?
I was I was scared of jail.
Like, no one was picking up my calls anymore.
I'm on, you know, on bond, I guess.
And like, I just couldn't once again, I couldn't zoom out and understand the bigger picture where if I sat down, shut the [ __ ] up, yeah, sure, I'll be broke for a couple of years, but I'll go to jail for two or three years, and I'll get out in my late 20s, and, you know, have a chance to pay people back the right way, and I just like couldn't understand that.
But, yeah, I think that like going forward, a big thought process for me, and it's been 3 months, is you know, how do I position myself, whether like whether it's a company or something else, like to get that help I need, and do I operate within a bigger company?
Do I find like partners that, you know, are senior to me in experience and age who I can like trust and defer to?
So, it's just all part of my journey right now, and I think that like this time around, I I think I I prefer those boundaries more, and it's just trying to find it, and it's been, you know, super early in the process.
Are you going to raise funding for this next company?
I think a lot of I don't know, but if I had a bet, I would say you probably actually could raise I bet you there's people that would give you money.
Is that So, I I texted a I texted like eight venture funds a few weeks ago, and, you know, with literally like a broken grammar, like two-line sentence.
Like, two told me to [ __ ] off, like, you know, one didn't respond, you know, one asked for more questions, and four of us like responded in like, you know, within a minute saying we're in.
Um, the issue is, you know, as I as I've kind of gone through the process, I'm actually not allowed, due to an SEC deal, um, I'm not allowed to raise securities.
So, I can't go and raise money.
Uh, I think the ironic part is that like it's probably going to it would have been easier this time to raise venture money, and like no decks, like none of that [ __ ] Like I said, I have no decks.
Here's all Here's all I have, and uh, yeah, people want to back it.
I just can't raise the funds.
So, And I I think that would shock people is that, Yeah.
you know, you just had a 50% hit rate on uh on a text message.
And in a back and a back and How do you explain that to somebody who's listening, and they're like, you know, there's some people who are frustrated that that's the case.
I can't believe people would fund him.
How How would you explain it though?
Cuz it's people People are making this decision. They're smart people. They're capable people. They have other options.
Uh, how would you explain why why somebody would be willing to do that?
So, I started trying to raise money for the first time almost 12 over 12 years ago now.
And, you know, as with everybody the first X people told me to [ __ ] off and kind of laughed at me and like so I went through 12 years of [ __ ] including 10 months of solitary confinement to like get to the point where maybe an investor believes that I've learned enough lessons to focus on what I'm good at and get help with what I'm bad at.
So it's not like it is like wake up one day and can raise money.
It was it was it's been 12 years of just like totally [ __ ] up to get to this point.
But yeah, and I think that before I raise money and obviously like legally I can't do it and I'm not going to be allowed to do it is I need the help, right?
And I need like the system and the structure in place where let me go and market and like come up with these experiences and adventures and you know, drive attention but have somebody else who could just help me manage like financials and logistics and operations.
What other ideas did you have if you weren't going to do something fire festival-y?
Uh did you have like other I'm sure you had a lot of time on your hands to think of other ideas.
Did you think about any other potential potential things you could do with your time?
Maybe not even businesses, just other things you might do.
Um I think if someone wants to go and really understand GPT-3 like the what's kind of powering the open AI and just become an expert on that, I think you can be like make a killing as a consultant and like teaching all these big brands like what's happening there and like what's going to happen.
So I think that's like one option to kind of go and like become a GPT-3 like expert and like be the go-to guy for a lot of brands.
Is your experience with GPT-3 since Sorry, when you got out 6 months ago?
Uh yeah, I actually was reading about it for like a year in jail.
Uh didn't even like know open AI was the name of the company or anything like that but it's like had random books in it.
So I was like oh, this is super interesting and like have dozens of pages and notes on it.
Maybe I'll post them but like and then it kind of kind of come out and see what happened recently, which is pretty cool. So I agree.
I think that could be a great company and I bet you'd kill it because you're pretty good at selling.
Uh you By the way, you you should I think if I was close with you I'd would Billy, do that.
What what else what else has excited you? What other ideas?
I think the concept of Fire app, which is providing transparency to a lot of these like legacy entertainment systems, is interesting.
One I think which is really interesting right now is like performance marketing for like social media and influencers.
So, I think one the reason why the Fire just take a step back, the reason why the Fire Festival marketing I think works so well is at the exact same time we had 400 people post this orange tile.
But, these 400 people weren't related, right?
It was some music artists, like some comedians, some athletes, some models.
So, when you're in our target audience and you're scrolling through Instagram feed, you're like, why the [ __ ] are these five people who don't know each other all posting this right now?
Like, I need to go check this out.
So, one idea I had is that basically creating like a marketplace for influencer marketing where let's say like Starbucks has a new coffee that they want to advertise.
They can go and upload all their creative assets and set like a million-dollar budget.
And then anybody around the world could take those assets and post it to their Instagram or their TikTok or their YouTube.
And then they basically get a score for how much engagement they get in their content.
And their overall score gets them a percentage of the budget.
So, if Kim Kardashian posted and she crushes it, you know, she gets 900 grand.
The 900,000 dollars is split up to, you know, another million people who all kind of posted.
I think it's like a fun way to remove all these [ __ ] middlemen in this whole social marketing world and then allow a brand to turn all of their followers into advertisers for that company without doing any of the legwork. Almost like Klout.
Do you remember Klout with a K? Yeah. Yeah, I do. Like yeah.
They they measure like your overall social score, right?
Yeah, and then it it it they raised a ton of money and probably sold for less than their valuation of 100 million dollars or I think they sold for 100, which was less I think than what they raised at.
But, I actually thought it was a fantastic idea.
For some reason it didn't work, I don't know why, but you're you're you'd be in that space a little bit, it sounds like.
Yeah, I think I did your thing.
It's like providing a a score to how well your content performs and getting paid off of that, but then turning everybody into your promoters.
Yeah, I think that's a really cool idea.
Uh it also flips the model on its head.
Right now, you have to do sort of individual manual outreach and then negotiations and then whatever versus just saying it's in the reverse. Here's a giant honeypot.
If you want it, go get it, you know?
Um and and then basically divvying it up based on the actual performance versus um you know, who can negotiate the best, you know, at at the given moment.
Uh okay, so that's a really cool idea. What else you got? Yeah. Yeah, those are my two. So Those are your two?
GPT-3 expert and then providing like an open marketplace where brands can upload their creative assets and anybody can kind of publish them and and get paid based on performance. And why not do that one?
Yeah, and why not why why do settle on the one versus those two?
I mean, they sound quite reasonable. Yeah.
Yeah, maybe I'll do them. No, you won't. I don't think you will.
I think like I don't know I don't think you will.
Like I don't know I guess you just have this like you must have a fire in you where you're no pun intended where you're like I have to go this event route.
Which is which is baffling.
I mean, but I guess people just passionate people are passionate about certain things. I get it. Yeah.
But uh logically, I just I have such I don't want to see you fail, I guess.
I want to see you succeed and like prove people wrong and I want to prove that like second chances could work.
And so when I see this, I'm like, "Oh man, you're just playing this game on hard mode."
Like you Yeah, I think you're not making the same mistakes on the obviously on the uh I have no idea, but like that'd be crazy if you're making the same mistakes as far as what got you into prison, but you're also choosing a business model that's super hard.
Uh like, you know, you're talking about a million people paying 20 cents to chum the waters.
And it's like I don't even know like those words have never even been said together. Uh right?
so it's like, you know, you're choosing to try to pull off a really really really difficult thing. Um Yeah.
And you know, it just seems like I I guess like my philosophy is always like in in business, there's no extra points for difficulty.
Um in fact, you get you getting docked points for difficulty.
The harder something is, you know, the less money you end up making.
And and and so there are no bonus points for doing things the hard way.
Now, on the other side, there is one advantage, which is when you go do something cool and audacious, every day you wake up and you're motivated and maybe you can recruit people who are motivated to pull off something epic.
Um because epic things have their own, you know, motivational draw to to actually go and do your best work. Which Which he just did.
I saw on your Twitter and I think Tik Tok you said, "Hey everyone, I'm a hiring for my new thing."
How many applicants did you get?
Yeah, so back to a business idea I think it's really interesting is we partner with a company called Bounty Hunter World to hire.
And they're trying to disrupt the whole over recruiter model, where they're saying anybody can refer a friend to a job.
And if you successfully refer someone, you get paid that recruiting fee.
And as you guys know, like those fees can be crazy.
So I think like their site is super awesome.
And then we tried to like one up it.
So we're saying anybody who refers a friend to pirate that we end up hiring, we take that person on one of these pirate experiences.
So trying to like give the island entertainer experience to like any of our fans.
Um And we've had a lot of people apply for jobs.
I think the craziest thing is like we have money and I'm probably like paying 15 to 20% of what I was paying for the same role five or six years ago and probably getting like better people.
So they could all goes to show like your mission and your intention is just so much more important than than anything else.
is the list of this like I put my phone number into this thing? How big is the list?
How many people have have signed up to like do the treasure hunt? Around 2,000. Okay. So. Yeah. It's not bad.
I'm shocked you didn't get more Cuz the Nelk Boys thing, that got 1.
5 million views and I then We've been getting a lot of inbound.
It's like social, it's like Instagram DMs I think are just have gone crazy.
Um I think the conversion to like a phone number through uh a platform has been a little bit harder for us, but yeah, overall, it's like how do we kind of organize all these DMs?
And maybe that's a different business, too.
If someone can build an inbox that takes inbound across like Instagram DMs, uh LinkedIn like in mail, your like your public email address and organize all of that and like kind of qualify those leads, that's something that I would pay for on a monthly basis.
And you and you're you're in you're building all of this right now with I think you said you collected 150k in revenue so far from like brand deals or something like that. Yeah.
170 since yeah, November 1st, yeah.
So you're building this bi- Since November 1st.
Well, I mean, that's a pretty good run rate already.
So but you're you're building this business now.
You have $170,000 just to to play with.
That's kind of what your starting point?
Yeah, don't worry, we spent it already. Did you really?
I mean, like I don't know.
Like we're just trying to trying to survive.
So Dude, have you ever heard of like Pilot or Bench?
Dude, there's these like really good accounting like software companies that you can use.
It's like a thousand a month and they'll just like tell you like your P&L, like Yeah.
you should or like a or like a part-time CFO. Like I don't know, man.
Maybe that would be a good investment. all of it. I need all of it. I need like I need help.
So If anybody's listening you an Excel license. Um Yeah. Yeah.
Have you ever heard of QuickBooks?
I mean, like I don't know, man.
I think you should like really sweat the details on this stuff.
FTX used QuickBooks and look what happened.
So I'm talking [ __ ] but Well, um correlation not causation, but I mean, you What what Speaking of that, what do you think you you you know, I've been following We had um We Sean and I have both interacted a bit with Martin Shkreli and unfortunately, you know, you're in the same vein.
There's you, there's Martin, and then there's now uh uh I think Sean doesn't like calling him SBF cuz winners don't get winners don't get nicknames.
He's just he's just Samuel now. But what do you think?
What's your take on the what's going to happen with him? Uh 40 years.
And then he'll get out after like Yeah, then he'll he'll get out after like 15 to 20.
Do you think that's fair? that's my guess. Um I don't know. That's my guess.
to Martin after he got out and I was like, "What was it like in prison?"
And he had a bunch of stories where he's like, "Yeah, I created a cryptocurrency study club.
I you know, I I had like you know, all these like He's like, "Yeah, we had this system where I was you know, selling information blah blah blah.
I was reading tons of books.
I had access to the internet."
He's like, "I would be under the covers at night like basically watching Khan Academy videos learning about like calculus and um What what's it What do you do to pass the time?
What what was your life like?
I think the hardest part about prison is it's designed to strip you of your ambition, right?
Cuz like there are great people there and I met some really incredible people, but there also are a lot of bad people.
And you can't put bad people into an environment where they're inspired and they have ambition to act on their bad impulses.
So, there's this concept of being institutionalized and essentially it's meant to just make you a human robot.
And I think it's like good in a certain way that it makes it time easier, but like naturally I was just trying to fight against like all of like the set processes as much as possible.
So, I think it made my time go like really really slow.
I was trying to fight to like find ways to stay creative. What what's an example? meant to make you robot.
Like they feed you at the same time every day.
Like they turn the lights off at the same time.
You can only use your phones for a certain period of time.
Like just everything is like structured like this.
Like you have to wear a uniform to go to lunch.
And it's like you're trying to find ways where like, you know, trying to find my creative periods and just not make every day the same so I can just like keep different ideas flowing and coming to me.
What What were some things you did successfully to kind of like amuse yourself?
What what was little What were your maybe little tactics?
Little wins you had as to keep that creative, you know, spark alive? Yeah.
Training a lot of boxing.
So, um I had like a a cellmate who was a former Puerto Rican like professional boxer and he would like wrap his hands with towels and like, you know, train me in boxing, which is super fun. Um We didn't have that.
Guys would take like toilet paper rolls and wrap them in tube socks and use that like for for mitts.
So, yeah, it's like finding like creative ways to to go and like exercise and free your mind and like do little things you're not supposed to that doesn't hurt anybody.
Like you couldn't practice martial arts, but, you know, you go in the back and have the guy hold your mitts for you for a half hour and you can kind of get away with it.
It's like a good good way to escape.
You looked like you were in better shape.
Yeah, I was fat as hell, so. Hard hard not to be.
What are some stereotypes that, you know, we would have about your experience that either proved to be true or like that maybe weren't true about the whole experience?
The whole like racial segregation, totally true. Totally thing. Yeah. Yeah, totally thing.
Um I think like being in New York, I'm a little naive and spoiled to I I guess like a lot of what probably exists in other parts of the world, but literally being in a place where if you're black, you go in this line for lunch and if you're white, you go in this line for lunch and you just can't cross over. It's like wild.
It just like feels like it's 60 years behind the times and obviously something that I like haven't experienced in in New York and and like probably spoiled to that sense, but really kind of getting over the racial issues were I think kind of a weird hard part for me.
And it's probably like what's weird about it is like when they separate by races, it's not always out of a place of hate.
It's just like, "No, this is just You stay with us, they go with them."
And it's not necessarily that they're they hate the other group, it's just this is just how we do things.
Yeah, it's always been done this way.
It's just how we're going to do it.
And like there certainly are terrible racists on both sides, but the majority aren't.
They're just like this is the way it's done, so this is the way we're going to do it.
And like it doesn't really make sense to do it.
If you could go and then change one way that the prison system works while while still, you know, achieving the goal and the the job to be done of of a prison, what would you change now that you've kind of saw it from the inside?
I think that I would make sentencing more equal across the board.
And there are a lot of people who committed the exact same crime who had wildly different sentences.
And this is almost like an interesting problem.
Maybe this is a really cool business is to build some sort of like AI sentencing thing cuz like right now it's up to one independent judge.
And that judge, like in my case, I could have gotten nothing or I could have gotten 20 years.
And like literally one person can decide the fate of your life.
Um and I think what I got is fair for me, but many other people's sentences weren't fair.
So maybe it's some sort of system that takes in all the information around someone's crime and their personal life.
Then studying everybody else who has had similar crimes and seeing who was successful and actually sentencing based on this idea of, you know, future success. Mhm.
What are some examples of of different punishments or different sentences based off of different crimes or similar crimes?
So I think for my situation it was a financial crime and typically your sentence is based on what the dollar amount that victims lost is.
So the more you lose, the more time you should get.
I think like there's plenty of people who were from New York whose dollar amounts were hundreds of millions of dollars who got one or two years.
Then I go out to a jail in Detroit where there's people who have lost $500,000 who got 30 years.
So it's like I just like there's just total disparity where it shouldn't be like that.
I don't think sentences are based on future success.
And some judges are like I think kind enough and smart enough to do that, but but some aren't.
So almost like having this AI system that recommends a sentence in addition to the judge is like a different data point.
I think it'd be super interesting.
Yeah, that's that's a cool idea.
Because like the judge it could be like the this happens where a judge is in a bad mood or has seen certain patterns that are biased and yeah, I mean that is it is pretty wild, you know, I've had friends like go through some of this stuff and they're like oh he this person was in a great mood today and I just or I just happen to get this person who falls under this political party and this is what happened.
It is that is pretty crazy.
It's just tough and like look at Elizabeth Holmes, she realistically could have gotten two years or she got it she could have gotten 35 years, right?
right? And it's like it's up to one person to determine like what that length of time is and that's a it's like a big task for someone to take on and unfortunately the system isn't fair, yeah, so do they have like a like a like you know, if you go to a company and you're going to get a job, it is not just up to the manager to just pick a random number for what you get to get paid, it's like
no, we know for this job title with this many years of experience, this is the range and the range is between this this and this and if you're going to go outside of that range, you got to have like a pretty strong indicator and it's like people have to be notified that I'm going way outside the range the the the normal like expected range in order to make this offer. It's almost like they kind of need that
It's almost like they kind of need that or I don't maybe they have some a version of that for judges who are trying to send this.
They have a guideline system that gives you like a recommended range and that definitely helps and it's good.
I think the issue though is that it's really hard for the judge to get to know someone in for the short period of time and those who have access to great attorneys have an advantage because like your attorney's entire job in the federal system is like you're going to lose the case.
It's all about presenting who you really are as a person and why you should be afforded a second chance at some point in the future.
So people who don't have access to quality attorneys just don't really have that same opportunity to explain why they should have a second chance and so I think that the AI probably benefits more of your like lower income defendant which is most of them who can't afford their own attorneys, to to show they're more of a human than just like what the crime is out Did you have a fancy lawyer? I had a good lawyer.
So, like and I just made it impossible for him, right?
Like getting in trouble again on bail, there's like nothing he could have done.
I was just a I was a [ __ ] Like I could have had 20 lawyers, it wouldn't have mattered.
I would have, you know, Have Sean, have you ever seen the movie Catch Me If You Can? Of course. Great movie.
And so, I read about that guy a lot, Frank Abagnale Jr.
And turns out most of what like he he made this book about his crimes and turns out it's likely like mostly lies.
I think like they prove like he's been proven time and time again that he didn't actually do what he said he did in terms of crimes, but he like glamorized it and then he turned it into like a pretty successful consulting business.
I don't know how big, but I like I looked up where he lives and he has got like a, you know, multi-million dollar home and he's always wearing these nice suits and he looks like he's he's done a good job.
When I look at him, Billy, I'm like, well, that guy is kind of like a good example of like what I, you know, turning [ __ ] into gold and like turning a situation around.
What Did you ever think about kind of going that route?
Like I think that like I would just Yeah, I I'd hate to live off of like fire for the rest of my life.
And then there's like a short window of opportunity where the attention from it will allow my next business just to start with a springboard, but I'd much rather be known for and fail or succeed at a new business than being someone who just talks about Fyre Festival for next 30 years.
Like that's boring as [ __ ] to me.
But I I I understand why some people would would want to do I agree, it is boring, but when you, you know, are in debt of 25 million dollars, it's like, well, you know, like I unfortunately I have to sacrifice my excitement in order to like make this work.
On the other hand, he's got nothing to lose, really.
What does he have to lose?
He's got like, all right, well, starting back from scratch, reputation was pretty tainted, and in a pretty deep restitutional hole where you You to pay back like 25, 30 million dollars or something like that.
Uh What why not swing and do what you want with your life versus uh you know I guess I guess it is there in a way it is it is good idea to just go for like the most whatever is the most sort of exciting and fun and fulfilling thing for you.
But how do you find pride, right?
Like I think that talking about it like a failed business when I was 24 and 25 when I'm 40, I'm not going to wake up with juice to keep going.
Like I think like if I see somebody else doing that I'm like oh what a [ __ ] loser.
Like I don't want to be that person.
So I'd rather go and like try to improve and like whether I fail or succeed is try something new and different and try to build something.
So so if it all works if life goes the way you want it and you're now 65, 70 years old, what's Billy McFarland? Who who who is he?
What what happened if it all works out for you?
Yeah, he took his failures, learned from it, used it as a springboard to build something new and like whether it's Pirate or something else that I do in 10 years from now and and went for it.
But like made good friends and helped people along the way.
And if I can pay back 25 million dollars, amazing.
If I pay back a million dollars, but you know, I try it and do it honestly, like that's okay too, I think. And yeah.
I I actually I think that a lot of the investors listening would probably agree with that if as long as it's kind of done the right way.
I think at this point it's less about the money and more about how I change.
Well, we appreciate you coming on, you know, this was like when we were I was preparing for this and I was like man, I don't know how to approach this.
I don't want to like glamorize someone who's done something bad, but like this was a really confusing thing to do, but I'm happy we we were able to talk.
I I'm going to be following your story very closely.
I'm very eager to see how you pull this off and frankly, I want you to pull you know, I want I want redemption to be real and and I want it to work.
Everyone deserves a second chance, so I hope I hope it does. Thank you guys.
Super cool to finally be here.
So Sam and Sean, thank you guys. Thanks for coming on.