0:02
I wish we just recorded the conversation we were just having, but I love what you just said.
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0:05
So, you're like, "Hey, my favorite entrepreneurs cannot work backwards from money." Say more about this. >> Yeah, it's true.
0:11
Like even some of the biggest companies in the world, like take Apple and Steve Jobs, who's like one of your favorite, I guess, like favorite icons ever, if not your favorite, right? >> One of them. Yeah. >> Okay.
0:21
But when you when you see the product he was making, you can actually tell that there was passion behind trying to make product that was going to change his own life, right?
0:28
And I felt like uh even then when uh the iPod really changed the trajectory of the company, you could feel the passion through the product and that legacy lives on.
0:39
Like even with the duo that we're seeing now, you could see that legacy live on.
0:43
Is it on par with what uh Steve Jobs may have designed? We will never know.
0:48
But ultimately he created an ethos that I believe really transcended and that feeling that penetrated everyone's lives really affected us in so many ways.
0:59
I don't apply that um to my business.
1:03
It's just naturally there because when I grew up I became passionate about my world at such a young age and I think that that's the most important element of anyone's or any entrepreneur success.
1:13
If you listen to most of them, they'll, you know, explain how their passion started so young in their, you know, when they were uh so so early in their lives.
1:22
Whereas, you know, in my in my case, it started when I was um when I was 13 and I started working in a stock room.
1:28
Uh but even before then, I always wanted to dress fly in school and my parents uh couldn't afford to buy me the things I wanted.
1:37
So back then I went to work strictly for the purpose of like being able to buy my own [ __ ] and just dress the way I wanted to dress.
1:44
Uh and that's how it started.
1:46
And I think the passion for that grew and as I learned about product, it just grew more and more.
1:50
But getting my foot in the door and knowing what I wanted to do from such an early age gave me the I think gave me the upper hand.
1:58
>> But how does like a 12 or 13 year old kid get interested in like fashion?
1:59
Is this coming from like hip-hop culture?
2:02
Like what was going on in your life or is like man I want to I want to come to school dress and fly? >> So I'll tell you.
2:06
So, so growing up, um, up until fourth grade, uh, my parents sent me to a to a private school to a yeshiva.
2:15
And in fourth grade, they couldn't afford to send me there anymore.
2:18
Actually, my grandfather was helping my mom send me to a to a private school.
2:21
And then in fourth grade, they couldn't do it anymore.
2:23
So, they pulled me out and then they put me in the public school closest to my house.
2:26
So, I grew up in Jamaica, Queens. So, I went to PS 178.
2:29
And when I when I attended 178, it was like a culture shock for me because it was so many different cultures.
2:35
It was like the biggest melting pot ever.
2:40
And you know, Queens is the biggest melting pot in the world.
2:41
So, we got to see or I got to see um from day one so many different cultures in the way people were dressing and the styles and really there was like a small crew of kids.
2:53
It was like six or seven of them that befriended me right away.
2:56
And these kids like that was back when you know Polo, Tommy, and Nautica were like >> were really were really big.
3:05
>> We're around the same age. I remember this. >> Yes.
3:07
So it was it was Are you 82? What year are you? >> 84.
3:10
>> That era um of like and then going into middle school it became even more important.
3:15
So more important the way that you were dressing, you know.
3:17
So I found myself, you know, really wanting, you know, I used to have to borrow my friends clothes.
3:23
Like >> dude, I had knockoff Tommy Hilfiger.
3:24
I literally bought bought it at the swap shop in South Florida.
3:28
We had no money and then I got called out at school.
3:30
You want to hear an embarrassing story?
3:31
I didn't even know some you know how these husters in South Florida are.
3:34
They took old Wendy's uniforms like the Wendy's like the fast food place.
3:39
You would give them like uh like a a colored shirt.
3:43
>> A colored shirt, right?
3:43
And I go to the swap shop cuz we have no money and like you have these like street vendors and right and I'm like, "Oh, this is Tommy."
3:49
I didn't understand what was going on and I wore it to school and they're like, "Dude, that's a Wendy shirt. A Wendy shirt."
3:54
I remember being like 12 and like devastated that I'm wearing a [ __ ] fast food costume.
4:01
Not costume, what's it called?
4:01
A fast food uniform with a fake Tommy Hilfiger screen printed on it. >> That's insane. I don't know.
4:07
I don't think things have gotten, you know, that far.
4:11
Uh, >> dude, I haven't thought about that in 20 years. I can't believe that. >> That's really crazy.
4:15
There were a ton of fakes going around.
4:16
And even though like back then, you know, a $65 or $85 shirt was like >> this was $10.
4:22
I should have known by the pride.
4:24
>> Oh yeah, you should have known by that.
4:26
I could have told you back then.
4:26
You needed me as a friend.
4:27
You know, I would have kept you safe.
4:30
But in in in school, that's what really that that style like what we were seeing around us, that was, you know, that that's what we really wanted to be.
4:37
And my older sister, she was working and making money buying product for ourel.
4:43
And then some of the kids in school, you know, they had the money or the parents had the money to buy them the product they wanted.
4:48
And that's really what fueled, you know, my my kind of like passion for wanting to work.
4:52
Just like I wanted to make money so I could buy my own product, you know, and buy my own clothing.
4:58
So at 13 at my bar mitzvah, you know, my my mom's first cousin, my second cousin, who was David Z, he owned shoe stores in the city.
5:07
He offered me an envelope of cash cuz he knew that my parents were paying off for my bar mitzvah party with the money I was getting as gifts.
5:15
So he offered me like I was going to the bathroom during the party and he gave me offered me like an envelope of cash and I told him keep the envelope. Um I want a job.
5:24
I was 13, you know, and he was like are you sure?
5:27
Like there was some money in that thing.
5:28
So uh I was like yeah no I'm sure I want a job.
5:32
And I started the next day and I started um working um in the stock room in a warehouse on Broadway uh where David Z had a bunch of stores and I worked there throughout the summer.
5:43
Uh, and then after that I worked in the stock room in 8th Street, which was like probably the most important part of my upbringing and also like the most influential part of my life.
5:54
Uh, because that's where I got to see like it was really the epicenter of culture.
6:01
8th Street between 5th and 6th Avenue.
6:03
Like during the weekend they would shut down the block.
6:05
There would be like basically like block parties every weekend there and the cops would let it rock and then the cars were parking like diagonally cuz there was so many cars.
6:13
And that's where people would come to get, you know, whether they were coming to get their fitted or Grace Papaya was on the corner or Fat Beats where DJs would come and get their vinyl.
6:21
Sam Goody was across the street.
6:24
And then you had a bunch of different shoe stores and also apparel shops uh where people were buying their iceberg apparel or they were buying back then brown shoes and boots were running the streets of New York.
6:35
So like today when you see like the obsession over kids in their Jordans or you know uh kids buying sneakers the way they are today, they were buying boots like hiking boots back then and that's when New York City was colder and it was snowing a lot more and you know for a good part of the year you needed to have boots and David Z was the number one location for those products.
7:01
So, you're talking about brands like Asolo and Technica and Redwing and we had Polo like the Polo Cookie boots and the hiking boots, the RLX boots and Timberlands, um, Trisetta, Dolomite, like all Bear AKU, like all these Gortex uh, hiker boots.
7:18
Hiking boots were just everywhere in New York City in that culture.
7:23
It was like it was still a subculture but it got so big like people were driving from like different states to come buy these products because they were Italian brands making product in Italy and it wasn't mass you know it wasn't massly distributed.
7:36
>> But when do you go from like admiring what other people are making to saying hey I'm going to do my versions of this?
7:42
>> That came that came later.
7:42
that like I worked as a a stock boy like receiving product, getting one-on-one time with the product, then becoming a salesperson, then becoming an assistant manager, then becoming a manager, assistant buyer, and then buyer.
7:57
>> So, this is just you learning the business, not thinking like let me ask you a question.
8:01
Maybe like I should start here.
8:02
If somebody doesn't know who you are, you say, "Hey, what do you do?
8:06
How do you describe yourself?"
8:07
>> I do a lot more than design.
8:07
So, I'm the CEO, creative director, and CMO, I would say, of the company.
8:14
So, CEO, CMO, and and and um and creative director.
8:17
And I think the creative director portion of my role >> uh has evolved over time, but I am ideating and part of every design of every product that we put out.
8:29
So, it's hard for me to describe what it is that I do because I do a lot.
8:33
And a typical creative director wouldn't be doing the buying or merchandising and I do I I do most of those things.
8:40
So I have my hands in everything um in everything productwise.
8:46
Uh and then I design the spacesh. >> Mhm.
8:50
>> I'm heavily involved in in the full like 360 degrees of the business.
8:54
The you know even even down to um the experience that people have when they walk in the FNB portion of what we do with Kit Treats and now Ronnie's.
9:02
So, there's a lot that I do, so I can't really describe it.
9:04
And it's hard for people to get a grasp on what it is that I do if you're not following it because it's been like building blocks since the beginning.
9:13
It's not like I've given up any responsibilities. I've just added on.
9:17
>> You're kind of like I met you outside and your car is very interesting.
9:19
And I I I like stuck my head in.
9:21
I was like, "Oh, dude, this is nice."
9:22
And you're like, "Welcome to my world." >> Yeah.
9:26
It's like >> you're kind of like building your own entire world. >> Yeah.
9:29
And and by the way, like I'm I'm head to toe in my product. Socks and underwear.
9:34
>> We don't have to see that, but I will take your word on it.
9:36
>> Yeah, take just take my word for it.
9:36
And I'm really living the product.
9:38
I live and breathe the product that I create.
9:41
And I'm building product for myself.
9:41
Uh and I think that people know that.
9:44
So they know that there's a lot of love that goes into it.
9:47
So if I'm building product for myself and I want to wear the product that we make, you know, I also up until very recently was fitting four hours a week.
9:55
I was the fit model for the product that we put out.
9:57
So, the brand puts out like more than 5,000 um styles a year of product between men's, women's, and kids and accessories and footwear.
10:07
We built a universe of product um and and it's been a really great evolution from the beginning.
10:13
So, if you ask me what it is that I do, uh I everything >> I'm a I'm a world builder, you know, like I I built I built myself like >> a world that I live that I live in.
10:25
>> But this is interesting.
10:25
Why would it be important for you to be the fit model?
10:28
Because it's literally like this is for me first.
10:31
>> No, it's a great question because it actually creates efficiencies when we get a sample in and then I fit the product and during the fitting I make all the decisions that I need to make for that one product.
10:40
So, I fit the product and then I'm I'm deciding if the fabric is right for that body.
10:45
I'm making alterations to the body.
10:49
Sometimes I'll even drop it and then come up with ideas on what we need to do to evolve from that body or how you know a specific design can be better.
10:55
So I'm giving direction in you know live during a fitting and if my you know the team is all there.
11:04
So, I have like 20 people at a fitting and you have your material your your materials team, you have your merchandisers, you have your designers, um, and then you have like the VP of product there and some assistants and there we're making like real decisions.
11:20
So, we'll make the decisions on that product and then we'll wait for the second sample to come in and we got to fit that too.
11:24
I think a lot of these brands cut corners.
11:26
I've spoken about this um a few times with different people about how the industry cuts corners and sometimes you walk into a store and you try something on, you have a shirt from that brand that fit well, but then you try it on and it doesn't fit well and you're like, "Well, why'd that happen?
11:41
I came back for the same style."
11:42
And it's because brands will want to create another version of the same style, but not fit it again.
11:48
So, they'll they'll apply a different fabric to the same body, but they won't fit it again.
11:53
and it drapes differently, it fits differently, and they cut corners.
11:57
And even, you know, there are fashion houses that do that where you'll walk into a very expensive store and, you know, try some product on, it doesn't fit, it fits like [ __ ] So, I'm very meticulous uh to every detail only because my closet every season I wipe it out and then it gets replaced with the new season.
12:16
So, if I'm going to be wearing the product, it better fit properly, you know, as I'm like the representative of the brand.
12:25
>> I want to tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, RAMP.
12:26
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13:29
>> So, I love how you you've used the word like love >> like several times.
13:32
We started the conversation.
13:33
We're like, hey, you know, the people I admire the most, entrepreneurs came before us, maybe some even operating today.
13:37
It's just like they're doing it for like out of they're not doing it for money.
13:40
They make money because they love it so much and they wind up if you love it so much, you wind up building great products.
13:44
And turns out if you maintain control and build a great product, you're going to wind up with the money anyways, >> right?
13:49
>> So the love of this, let's go back to like the story you're saying.
13:51
I'm kind of learning like the almost like the mechanics of the business as a kid, right?
13:56
This is before you're like, I'm learning how the how the business exists or part of the business exists before you kind of put your own spin on it, >> right?
14:03
>> So when when do you when you're like, hey, I actually have my own ideas.
14:04
Like so me and you were both know Jeff Salaznik who was on the show and he he told a very similar story.
14:10
He was just like, man, I was obsessed.
14:11
I was like eating at every single restaurant.
14:13
I was like the weird kid that come home at from after middle school and watch PBS cooking show shows that and then he's like >> then I'm like eating all these restaurants and I'm creating media about this and he's like you know what I got my own goddamn ideas on how this should be done, >> right?
14:30
>> When was that turning point in your life?
14:32
>> I was so [ __ ] obsessed with footwear, you know?
14:35
So like when Kith opened and we'll go back I'll go back to your question in a second.
14:39
When Kid first opened in 2011, we were a multibrand footwear shop.
14:42
And then I had projects with brands where I was working on my own versions of some of these iconic footwear silhouettes for the store.
14:49
And then from there, it expanded to be a lot more.
14:53
But I'm going to rewind back because I was a footwear guy, you know, and strictly footwear until 2012, 2013, right?
15:02
So, I was basically buying, you know, upwards of $30 million at retail a year from from so many different footwear brands.
15:13
I was the sneaker guy before I became the shoe and boot guy when I started working.
15:19
I was wearing like, you know, Nikes were my thing before I started working in this brown shoe and boot retailer.
15:24
And then I helped David because the trend of brown shoes and boots as the as the weather actually got warmer in the you know the seasons kind of extended and the winter kind of like shrunk to like 3 months you know instead of the four or five months that we were used to cuz it was getting cold in October back then and then it was cold up until April and now it's a bit different from that.
15:47
So athletic footwear started to really become a trend in New York City and kind of take over that business of the brown shoe and boot world.
15:55
So I helped David transition from brown shoes and boots to athletic footwear.
16:01
And he knew that I was like obsessed with sneakers.
16:03
So, um, I was going to these trade shows and helping open new accounts, uh, new footwear accounts, and then starting as an assistant buyer, being put on some of these accounts.
16:15
And we built an incredible business with Anuzuka Tiger, which is AS6.
16:20
And it wasn't sports style yet.
16:23
It was just Anosuka for what we were carrying.
16:24
But the sales rep knew that I was a sneaker head and knew that I was collecting product cuz I was collecting sneakers since like 95, right when I turned 13.
16:33
That was the first pair of shoes that I bought twice.
16:35
It was a flight 95 Jason Kids.
16:37
I don't know if you remember this with the the carbon fiber in the midsole and it was kind of looked like a spaceship and it was the the first like iteration of that kind of shoe was a basketball shoe.
16:48
>> But were you buying to flip?
16:50
>> No, back then there was no flipping. Okay.
16:52
>> I was buying a second pair because I love them so much, you know, and the Air Max 95, the Neon 95s were like >> the design language was just something we've never seen before.
17:00
I like I was just gravitated to it towards it, you know.
17:04
Come 2006 when I helped build Anasuka Tiger to a multi-million dollar business for David.
17:12
Um they knew that I was heavy into footwork collecting.
17:14
They knew I was a sneaker kid.
17:15
So they opened up the archive for me and they were like, "Hey, you know, do you want to look through some of these styles and work on it?"
17:24
And I was like, "What do you mean by work on it?"
17:25
"Oh, you could create your own version of the shoe." And I was like, "Oh."
17:28
So David was already doing this with boots back in the day, but they weren't branded like David Z on the boots, but they were considered SMU, which is cons which is called a special makeup.
17:39
>> So he was doing it with Timberland.
17:39
In fact, like in 1997, David had an idea of making a gray construction Timberland boot.
17:45
And Timberland never made a gray boot in their history.
17:50
It was mostly like for performance purposes in browns and blacks.
17:55
you know, if you were either wearing it for construction or wearing it to hunt, like they were really into the performance aspect of the brand.
18:01
So, David's idea of making a gray construction boot was like I was like, "Holy [ __ ] what is that?"
18:10
Like, people saw that and were instantly it like we sold like 10,000 pairs of that boot in a couple of years.
18:14
Like, it just with no internet, right?
18:17
So like people coming into the store and you know that was a product that we had and I saw that as a salesperson on the floor.
18:25
I saw how people gravitated towards something they couldn't find anywhere else.
18:28
So when AS6 offered me the opportunity to work on a shoe and I'm looking through the catalog I found a shoe.
18:34
How old are you when this is happening? >> This is in 200 six. So I was 23. >> Okay. >> Right.
18:43
I'm looking at the catalog and I see a shoe that my mom bought me when I really wanted a pair of Ebok pumps.
18:47
She left me outside the store. I was crying. I was 8 years old. >> Mhm.
18:52
>> And she she brought me a pair of A6 Gelite 3s for 50 bucks or something instead of buying me a pair of pumps that were like 110.
19:00
>> I wanted the pumps too.
19:00
The little the thing >> Yeah. That Yeah.
19:02
That was just that just wasn't happening, right? >> Yeah.
19:05
>> The D Browns or the Victory pumps.
19:05
Like they were incredible.
19:07
So, I had to wear these Jelly 3s and I fell in love with them, you know, and um and when I saw it in the catalog, I was like, I knew that that's the shoe that I wanted to work on.
19:17
And also in in the world and I was collecting and at that time, >> so when they're opening the archive, they're meaning, hey, these are past models we're not doing.
19:23
They're not manufacturing.
19:25
They're not creating anymore. Correct. >> Okay. >> Yeah.
19:28
>> And so old old cataloges. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. From 1990.
19:32
>> That's even better cuz you just mentioned how important it is to have product that's differentiated.
19:35
You can't get anywhere else.
19:36
That's exactly why I decided to work on that shoe.
19:37
And I didn't know if people would gravitate towards that model.
19:41
So, it was 252 pairs were the minimum.
19:46
And we needed to commit to a,000 pairs for the style to be made.
19:50
And I worked on three colorways of the style. 252 pairs of each.
19:55
And then they took the other 250 and then offered it to a store in Amsterdam called Pata.
20:02
And that's how the the silhouette came back.
20:05
Back in 1990, we created that shoe and uh it took off.
20:11
>> Well, even back then though, when you're like, "Okay, they offer me a silhouette.
20:13
I can put my own spin on this."
20:13
Was your northstar just like, "Hey, I'm just going to make the shoe look like what I would want to wear." >> Correct. >> So, same to this day. >> 100%.
20:21
Like, it's always I'm always creating product for myself.
20:26
>> That's the red thread through all the product, at least the men's product and even the kids product of what I want want to put my girls in.
20:31
And now with the women's product, it's like my wife, my mom, my sister, you know, three different generations.
20:38
And I I I know what my wife wants to wear.
20:41
I know what my mom wants to wear.
20:43
I know what my sister want like.
20:44
And I'm I'm really designing for the people either if it's not for myself, it's for somebody that's the muse, you know? Mhm.
20:52
>> And I think that um on the footwear side, if you look through this book, that was in ' 07, my first shoe released and it had a slow start for the first day. I had an event. We sold 50 pairs.
21:04
Then the next day it released in the store.
21:06
We sold a few pairs, but one of the one of the pairs that sold was to an editor that came by from the Wall Street Journal and asked me a [ __ ] ton of questions about the shoe.
21:13
I didn't know he was an editor, so I'm giving him all the information I just gave you.
21:16
And then he wrote about it.
21:17
And then the next day I came in and there were my mom's calling me as I'm biking to work and was telling me like that it's on the cover of the Wall Street Journal like like the shoe my specific cuz it was an article about like limited shoes. >> Yeah.
21:35
>> And then there was a picture of the shoe that I worked on uh in the pursuit section on the top like right next to the word pursuits. It was like right there.
21:42
There was a line down the block and the shoe sold out instantly.
21:44
And on the same day, the CEO of North America for Adidas was moving into his office across the street and saw the line and walked downstairs and was like, "What's going on over here?"
21:53
And I was working in the store, right?
21:54
So, like, cuz I'm doing I'm buying and um, you know, I'm work I'm working on this project, but I'm still managing the store. Yeah. Right.
22:03
Like the flagship store, which was 556 Broadway between Prince and Spring.
22:06
So, the guy walks in, >> the CEO of North America, and he's like, "Hey, what's going on here?"
22:11
So, I'm telling him what's happening.
22:12
And he was like, "You worked on the project?" He was like, "Yeah."
22:14
And I had the Wall Street Journal there, the copy cuz my mom called me. I picked one up.
22:18
>> So he was like, "Let me take a look at that." And he's looking at it. He's reading it.
22:20
And he was like, >> "So you're behind this."
22:22
And he was like, "What are you doing right now?"
22:23
I was like, "Well, I'm working here.
22:24
I'm When do you have lunch?"
22:26
And I was like, "I could go off in a, you know, in a like a half hour or an hour or whatever."
22:30
So he met me and then we took a walk to the Adidas store and we walked into the store and he was like, "Well, what would you want to work on here?" >> Whoa.
22:38
>> And then I picked up the Shelto.
22:41
And then the second project was called The Black Tie.
22:43
And at the time I was dating a girl um that was um part of the design process of Gold Bar down on Broom Street. >> What's Gold Bar? I don't know.
22:55
>> Gold Bar is a It's a beautiful lounge uh that was like the first of its kind to be kind of like when all these clubs were like really big, it was this like really intimate small room.
23:03
There was nothing quite like it since.
23:06
It became this like really energetic like spot that everybody like the downtown kids were all like gravitating towards this place at night.
23:15
The employees were in these black suits and the whole place was gold and it was beautiful.
23:18
Like I remember like she was like working there at 4 in the morning gold leafing the ceiling and I was helping her like I got up on the ladder and was helping her paint the ceiling of the space.
23:27
So, I was really in love with the space and then it opened and I became good friends with the manager.
23:32
And then I I was thinking one day, I was like, "What am I going to do with the shoe?"
23:35
And I'm holding the shoe in front of me.
23:36
I was like, "I'm just going to make the shelto a dress shoe and then have the employees at Goldb Bar, you know, wear these shoes."
23:45
And then I ended up shooting the staff from Goldbar for the campaign of the shoe.
23:50
And I called it the black tie.
23:51
And the shoes came with a black tie, with an Adidas tie.
23:54
Uh, and that became the second shoe that I worked on.
23:56
And then from there it kind of snowballed and I was doing this at David Z.
23:59
So there were >> you still have a full-time more than full-time day job. >> Oh my god.
24:04
So this became a pretty substantial business where we were selling >> where we were selling these products that I was working on and >> you know it grew and grew and grew and that became a pretty a pretty big business relatively quickly.
24:17
>> Well, where's the money going when you say big business?
24:19
It's going to David, right? It's going to David.
24:21
>> So it's not you you don't have any kind of equity, economic tie, nothing. Essentially just talent. >> Yeah. Correct. Correct.
24:26
And I was so I was the buyer, I was a curator for this product and then I was also like a general man like managing also the shops, right?
24:37
>> Sounds very similar to when I asked you what do you do today? >> Yeah. >> Everything. >> Yeah.
24:41
Basically, it was a little bit of everything, right? And he had a team.
24:43
He had a he had a team of people.
24:45
But I was young, energetic, and leading a store that was for the masses.
24:51
When I first started at David Z, it was a subculture.
24:57
By the time I became a buyer for for David Z, it was for the masses.
25:01
David took the route of like opening stores on Broadway and catering to the tourist.
25:06
I wanted to be about the local and I was very much into the culture of collecting.
25:12
So, I was already starting to collect footwear way before then.
25:14
And I was trading with Japan and product that David wasn't carrying.
25:19
I was collecting Nikes at this point.
25:20
So, uh, and and David had a Nike account for a brief time, but at that time there was a lot of, um, competition with these individual businesses that were were kind of like running game with a Nike account.
25:35
The Nike account was a big deal back then, you know, cuz that was the that was the brand that was driving a lot of the revenue. So, he didn't have Nike.
25:41
So, I was trading and I was collecting uh because I built great relationships in the industry.
25:46
But basically in two 20 uh in 2009 I already started thinking about hey like this is this is incredible what I'm doing but also like I feel like I could be doing this in a way where I could cater to the consumer that's about this product full-time and not only when I'm releasing this product they're coming in.
26:09
>> What do you mean full-time?
26:09
full-time meaning when I was working on like these type of projects like that AS6 shoe for example that kid that was buying that AS6 shoe was not necessarily shopping at David Z for other seekers that that kid that was focused on collecting and about special athletic footwear like elevated and very limited athletic footwear was coming back for the product that I was creating but it wasn't coming back as a daily consumer.
26:34
So the idea is like we have this very special differentiated product but it's 10%.
26:38
I'm making up numbers 10%.
26:40
There's 90% of the stuff you can get anywhere. Correct.
26:43
>> Why don't we just focus on the special is what you're saying. >> Right.
26:45
And I wanted to do that but that wasn't that wasn't the road map for David.
26:48
You know >> I want to I got a funny story though cuz like you mentioned Steve Jobs being one of my heroes and I love that he's just completely unfiltered.
26:54
And so uh this is like a few years before he died and at the time some there was a new CEO of Nike cuz he he he loved brands and he's like Nike is one of the greatest brands of all time.
27:03
He thought Sony was a great brand. Polaroid, Apple.
27:05
He's like, "Love love people that like build these really like these brands that soulful brands."
27:11
They evoke emotion is the way he would put this.
27:13
>> And he's like, "Steve, do you have any advice for me?"
27:14
He's like, "Nike makes some of the best products in the world."
27:17
But you also make a lot of crap.
27:17
He's like, "Just get rid of the crap.
27:18
Focus on the good stuff."
27:20
And that's exactly what you're the the realization you're having at this point.
27:24
>> But the the crap was still generating a lot of money. >> Yeah.
27:27
But Steve didn't give a [ __ ] >> and I don't give a [ __ ] So that that's where me and Steve are alike, right?
27:31
And to me, like I saw an opportunity in being passionate about 100% of the things I was doing, >> not about 10 to 15% of the things I was doing.
27:42
>> Man, that's an important insight.
27:42
I don't want to skip over that. That's super important. >> Yeah.
27:47
>> Like, let's be like, I'm spending 85% of my day on stuff I don't care about.
27:51
Like, just get rid of the crap because this is what we were talking about earlier off camera and maybe we bring this into discussion is like you feel it.
27:57
it. like you feel when there's like love behind what people are doing >> substance >> it's just like they do things that are non-economic decisions right the idea like let's go back to Steve where it's like he insisted that >> you can't open MacBooks you couldn't open the Mac back then but when you did open it was beautiful looked like it was
28:15
like a piece of art and everything was organized no one was going to see it but him and that was his point he's like I don't care if another people see it and he learned that from his dad who was a carpenter he's like you're not going to use a He goes listen we're building a cabinet or a dresser you put it So what do people do? Put dressers on the wall.
28:28
Put dressers on the wall.
28:29
You don't see the back of it.
28:29
So people use people that don't give a [ __ ] They use crappy wood.
28:32
We're not going to do it because we know it's there.
28:36
>> And that's the difference between being such an active founder and being the end user of the product that you make.
28:43
>> It's also what's required for greatness.
28:44
Patrick Shani is like my brother, one of my closest friends.
28:46
You went on his show and we were talking, we were upstairs, one of the greatest entrepreneurs living right now. He's just maniac.
28:51
He's like obsessed with operational excellence.
28:54
And we were talking about his his competitors and stuff and Patrick made the observation.
28:57
He's like, "Man, it's amazing."
28:59
He's like, "Everything is shit."
29:00
And in it doesn't matter what >> uh category or industry you're competing.
29:04
He's like, "There's like two to three guys.
29:05
There's like two to three guys in every single one that are doing great [ __ ] and then a whole sea of mediocrity." >> Yep.
29:11
And and the mediocrity is when you're working backwards from for money. >> Yeah. >> Right.
29:16
So when it's when it's about the money and not about the product, you could see that it's transparent today to people.
29:21
I feel like more than ever before actually as like this generation starts to like steer back to substance as you see vinyl start to pick up, you know, and as you see like the mom and pop stores, mom and pop stores kind of have this resurgence into people looking for discovery.
29:37
People want to discover things in in real life.
29:41
And I think that the digital world has cheapened information and information comes in the form of art sometimes and it's like you know you could pass over certain things by not touching and feeling them you wouldn't understand the substance within the product.
30:00
So, I'm a firm believer of that because I come half my life is pre- internet kind of like yours, right?
30:07
And I think the pre- internet portion of my life, >> half our childhood, we should say.
30:10
No, cuz like the internet came around like early like I was on AOL in like 9796. So, yeah.
30:16
So, like half the childhood, >> right?
30:17
But but but that wasn't influential internet.
30:19
>> No, you had to call the internet when we were kids.
30:22
Remember, like literally like I got to call up the internet and like, oh, mom's on the phone, can't call the internet.
30:26
And then when you're on the internet, they can't call you cuz the line's busy.
30:29
I tried to explain this to my daughter and I even went up and looked uh I uh and I I you can find this on YouTube.
30:34
The noise it would make me like what is this?
30:36
I'm like I was calling the internet. That's so funny man.
30:39
It really that's really true.
30:39
But like the first time you were influenced by the internet was really in the blog era.
30:45
So the blog era the development and the beginning of the blog era was right when I was putting out my first product at David Z and they were interested in the products after that Wall Street Journal article.
30:57
They were interested in what was happening and they were even writing for the right reasons back then where it was before brand deals. It was a hobby.
31:06
>> Again, go back to love. >> Yeah, man. Doing it for love.
31:09
>> I don't ever want to step away from that.
31:11
So, like everything I do is for the love of what I do.
31:15
The market needs more of that.
31:18
It needs more attention to detail.
31:20
It needs to have more purpose.
31:22
And I think purpose is is huge.
31:22
I often go back to like the purpose behind a lot of these products that Apple makes and it's to better people's lives and it doesn't only come in the form of technology.
31:34
Like the product that you're wearing can make your life better.
31:36
You can feel better in the product that you're wearing.
31:39
You know, it can make you look better.
31:41
It can give you more confidence.
31:42
Like I want to give them more than what they pay for.
31:44
So that there's so much that goes into just that portion of it of making sure that there's value in the product when you touch and feel it or through 50 washes of a garment.
31:54
There are a lot of words that um I think meanings of some of these words are changing over time like the word luxury and like the word value.
32:05
Like typically luxury and value don't come together.
32:07
Like value is like this beaten down term by down market retail.
32:12
And then luxury is typically like it needs to cost a certain amount to be luxurious.
32:16
What luxury should mean is how much people love what they're buying.
32:21
That it's a luxury to have the product.
32:24
That's what luxury should mean.
32:27
So a lot of these luxury companies I think are overexposed now and are becoming less luxurious.
32:32
At least to me that means it's over accessible.
32:37
>> So how do you how do you avoid that with Kiss though?
32:40
>> First of all, we don't wholesale.
32:42
Second, we don't license.
32:44
>> Why is that important for somebody that's outside of your business?
32:47
>> Because then you can't control how those uh products are spoken about and where they're placed and how they're merchandised, then you can't storytell around the product.
32:54
around the product. You could storyt tell topline by creating these TV ads and then you're walking in the airport and there's some [ __ ] little rinky dink shop um that half the store, you know, there's construction done on half
33:07
the store and you walk in and it's like messy as to how you see the product and the people that are catered to you like they might not be bestin-class and then all of a sudden people are subconsciously associating your brand with that experience. From day one, I've
33:19
From day one, I've always wanted to control the experience that people have because I thought I could be the best at speaking to it since I'm the creator of it, right?
33:27
So, I wanted to walk people through the full experience, you know, from ideiation, you know, through walking out the door, walking out the kit door.
33:35
So, the storytelling, I feel like we're 50% storytellers and then 50% retailers.
33:39
But on the retail side, that's then broken up to what we do digitally versus what we do physically.
33:46
And as the business starts to skew more digital, I feel forced to open more physical.
33:53
And that's how the brand grew cuz I have a number.
33:58
There's a threshold where I won't allow the percentage of the total pie to go over an X amount on the website for the web revenue. >> Why?
34:08
>> I don't want to become a digital brand.
34:11
The touch point, the touch and feel.
34:11
So you're purposely foregoing more sales.
34:17
This goes back to the love and not how the conversation started.
34:18
It's like can't work money.
34:19
You're purposely foregoing more sales because you have to be a physical.
34:24
And that's a better experience for the person.
34:26
So if I order something from kit.
34:27
com, right, as opposed to going in your stores. >> Yes.
34:32
>> It's like way better experience that you control the whole story, the whole experience.
34:35
>> We're controlling we're controlling from the website down.
34:36
And actually, no, you're that's that's not true.
34:38
I'm not foregoing revenue cuz the website revenue continues to grow and it's on its path.
34:44
But I always want it to be half digital and half physical.
34:48
So >> I want the physical to grow at the same rate is what I'm saying. >> Okay. >> Does that make sense?
34:55
>> So yeah, it's not like okay wait we're at 50%.
34:57
Like >> stop make stop selling product on the internet.
35:01
>> That would be kind of actually might be a good idea.
35:03
It's like sorry the website's closed for a few days. >> You got to come back.
35:06
By the way, there are some brands that do that and and then create demand because they go away for a little bit, you know.
35:10
Um, Supreme does that in their offseasons, which I think is really smart.
35:15
>> Are you using the the sales online as a as a as a sign that, hey, I need to increase the amount of physical footprint, the the amount of physical stores I have in the real world? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yeah.
35:25
And and I I think that because I've done that, the brand is in a really unique place because, you know, I I open stores where I travel.
35:34
>> Oh, say more about this.
35:34
Yeah, New York, Miami, LA and then Tokyo for example.
35:39
And then as I started to visit Paris for fashion week, Paris became the next focal, you know, focus for me.
35:43
And then as I started to visit London, London became a focus for me.
35:47
Korea, Soul became important in fashion.
35:49
So I started to visit Seoul.
35:51
And that's when I figured, you know, it would be a good time to open up a store in Seoul.
35:54
I think the growth that we've had is has been substantial.
35:58
You know, as we're planning on opening now, the news is out.
36:01
We're opening in San Fran.
36:01
We're opening in DC and we have the data of how many people are shopping online.
36:06
Like I mentioned before, those people need the experience, the physical experience of the brand.
36:10
They can't only have a digital experience if they're a fan of the brand.
36:13
I feel like I owe that to them.
36:15
I have the responsibility of giving them the full um experience for the company, you know, for what the company can offer at least.
36:20
So that's really the mindset around uh the growth.
36:26
>> This is a privately held company, right? >> Yes.
36:27
>> Do you have investors or No. >> No. >> You own all of it? >> Yeah.
36:30
Well, me and me and my partner. Yes.
36:32
You mentioned going to Tokyo. There's this crazy.
36:33
You probably know about this.
36:35
It's like one of the best pizza.
36:37
You wouldn't expect to find the best pizza in the world in Tokyo, but there's like one psycho guy. >> That's true.
36:41
I expect to find the best of everything in Tokyo, but you go out. >> Yeah, maybe.
36:44
What is the um Somebody said this to me that like you're the way you make podcasts like you have a Japanese spirit.
36:49
It's like uh what's the craftsman shinen where it's like it doesn't matter if you're like sweeping the floor or making sushi.
36:55
Like whatever you do, it's like >> you need to be the best.
36:59
Whatever you do, it's just like you take it very seriously and be the best at what you're doing.
37:03
>> You maximize the potential of any one role. >> Yeah.
37:05
And so this guy, I I went to the pizza spot.
37:07
I forgot what it's called, but like people that hear this will know what it is if they've been there cuz like he does three kinds of pizza.
37:12
You can't make any modifications.
37:15
You can't say, "Oh, can I get the answer is I'm going to make these three and make the best and then he'll just when he's done for the day, he just closes." >> That's it. He's done. >> Yeah. It just like closes.
37:23
>> Yeah. It just like closes. So if you're a privately held company, you said what came to mind now is like, "Well, these brands get overexposed and they get overexposed because they have the pressure from investments or shareholders like you got to grow go grow but for craftsman it's like >> I don't know I make three pizzas I do this forever >> and like this is what I want to do so
37:42
you could if this is a concern of yours like stop or slow down >> no I do I do and in many instances I do but it's not in the sense of shutting down the website or right that that would be the extreme and I also
37:54
definitely am not going to make three pizzas I'm like I have I'm very ambitious to do to maximize the potential of what the brand can do and the brand has expanded way beyond footwear and and apparel. >> I mean, you just walked in here and
38:11
>> I mean, you just walked in here and you're like, "Hey, dude, the filming in the Aman is really nice.
38:13
Uh, next one we should do, we should do an Ivy."
38:16
To your point, you're just like, "Well, I don't really have any ceilings on my ambition and I can like take this into hospitality and other spaces, too." I'll say this.
38:24
If I was easily influenced by what people expect me to do or what people want me to do, I would be in a very small box because we started off as like street wear, which is like and actually we we actually didn't start off as street wear.
38:40
We started off with a with a a cut and sew pant uh out of the garment district in New York.
38:45
And there's a there's a long story about that.
38:48
I could go on for two hours about that pant, but that pant was the entry into apparel.
38:52
But we didn't start off with a t-shirt, a graphic t-shirt.
38:53
We started off with a pant and then that pant turned into a varsity jacket and then and that be that happened because people were I created community around the store, right? And how did that happen?
39:07
Because at the time, like I said before, like I was collecting and I was uh big into the culture of of product in downtown in New York, but the stores that were offering this like street wear product and and limited footwear, they were arrogant.
39:28
you would walk into the spaces and they weren't very friendly, you know, and I I saw an issue with that because I came from David Z that was a becoming more of a mass retailer and I always felt like and I was a consumerf facing at the time.
39:43
I always felt like having the conversation with anyone who walked in, even if they weren't coming in for product, it's like important for them to feel at home, you know?
39:49
So, the concept of Kith, which means friends, part of the phrase kith and kin, friends and family, it means friends.
39:55
I wanted people to feel like they could come to the space and enjoy their day even if they weren't going to buy anything.
40:02
So, that's what fueled me to open this the store in the first place.
40:08
And then we built this great community based on those, you know, based based on that concept of like, you know, those values of like wanting to be very welcoming just easily created a community because it was like something that they were looking for.
40:22
They just didn't know it.
40:23
So as I created a community, they just wanted to wear the name of the store on their chest.
40:27
They wanted to represent the store. We weren't a brand yet. We were a store.
40:33
>> Explain what the difference is then compared to now.
40:37
What was the initial thing?
40:37
You were just talking about people's product.
40:39
>> Now, now we're a brand before anything, right?
40:41
So, I think the the difference today, the delta is huge between then and now.
40:46
But I I will say that I'll explain the difference to you in a in even in a simpler term.
40:51
Back when I first opened the store, my attorney asked me if I wanted to register the IP for product.
40:58
And I was like, well, I'm not making any product.
41:00
I'm like working collaboratively with these footwear brands, but I'm not making any apparel.
41:06
So, I don't need to buy the mark, right?
41:08
And he's like, "Oh, you still have protection rights even if you use it on apparel.
41:10
Like, you'll have some rights anyway." I was like, "Okay."
41:12
Then four years later, there's a this [ __ ] crook out of Italy that went and registered my mark, the same mark in Italy for apparel.
41:25
And I've already become successful with apparel.
41:27
I just didn't revisit buying the IP, >> right?
41:31
So all of a sudden, you know, I I then had to buy my IP and negotiate with this crook to buy the IP back and own it globally.
41:43
And that was a very expensive lesson that I learned.
41:45
But I I didn't even consider myself in the beginning.
41:48
I wasn't considering myself a brand at all.
41:51
Even for the first couple years of me making product, I was just like, "Yeah, that's just like cool [ __ ] I have on the side for the store."
41:56
But very quickly it turned.
41:59
And then when the kith the small 800 foot space in the back of atrium then expanded into the full atrium space because we were that successful we took another 5,000 ft.
42:10
All of a sudden I had to quickly put a plan together around becoming a brand.
42:16
I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book 0ero to1.
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43:23
When you were 800 ft, what are you selling in the store? >> Only footwear.
43:25
And then apparel was like >> Are these footwear that are only the collaborations you're doing?
43:31
It's still the same thing when you were David.
43:34
Small percentage collaboration.
43:36
>> David was not a top tier distributor of product. >> Okay. >> Right. Or retailer of product.
43:42
>> David had main cataloges of product.
43:42
And then I opened this store strictly to have the top tier of distribution from all of the brands I was carrying because all these brands, >> what does that mean, top tier distribution? >> I'll explain.
43:54
Okay, so for example, and the easiest one to explain would be Nike.
43:58
Nike has what's called a tier zero and then they even have quick strikes which are below tier zero.
44:03
So tier zero would be the most limited product they make.
44:08
Quick strike would be the second layer to that and then you have the mainline collection which is a catalog that a dick sporting goods gets to buy into. >> Yeah. >> Okay.
44:17
>> The whole premise behind the Kith space was to have the best footwear wall in the world and that was going to have like top tier and this is at a time where it wasn't this popular.
44:26
Sneaker culture grew a ton since then but top tier distribution from all the brands. I didn't invent that.
44:33
Sneaker boutiques were a thing, but I wanted to be the best of and I had enough knowledge as a buyer um and as a merchandiser and as a salesperson, I I had enough knowledge of knowing how to do that in the like and curate the best wall in the world. >> Okay.
44:50
So, you combine this like industry knowledge with the fact that at this point you're over 10 years deep into just being a >> a collector. A collector. Exactly. So, even even longer.
44:58
So you then combine the two into the very first gift store which is again 800 ft, >> right?
45:04
And but then I also because of the relationships I built >> opening these accounts at David Z and also buying from these accounts at David Z, I was able to build um amazing relationships where I was then working on product with all these brands for Kith.
45:18
So we had top tier distribution from these brands but then we also had collaborative product that I was working with these brands on you know so we had very limited product and that was keeping people coming to the door for very special product but they were also coming to the door to see this the the special product that these brands were releasing.
45:38
So there were like major release dates for all these brands for different product and we were one of the you know I'm sure you heard of Virgil. >> Yeah.
45:47
you know, and you know, Virgil and Nike worked on incredible product, you know, Kith was one of the main retailers to carry that product in the States, you know, and then Yeezy product with Adidas, for example.
45:58
There are a lot of other products that sit within that tier where Kith would become the main destination for people to come and buy those products.
46:05
Um, and and we built we built a community around that.
46:08
And then from that point where apparel started to sell at the rate that it was the growth that we had for our brand for our house brand for our fashion brand for Kith was surpassing any demand that we had for anything else.
46:23
So as we started to open up more doors, you know, we then, you know, had that offering for different communities and different cities.
46:31
And as we saw the success of the different stores, we understood that our reach was global.
46:39
And today, for example, when we have a release of product like, you know, we just released a big project with BMW that was about a month ago, I would say.
46:48
>> Is that what I just saw outside?
46:50
>> That's from the last project. >> Okay.
46:51
Can other people buy that?
46:51
or is that something you did custom for yourself?
46:55
>> No, that was uh we had 47 of those made and 47 stood for the years between the M1 and the and the XM because those are the only two one-off M cars that BMW ever created. >> Okay.
47:06
>> So, like for example, you can get an X5 uh and the X5 will there'll be an X5M, but there's a regular X5.
47:12
For the XM, it was only a M version of that car.
47:15
For the M1, there was only an M version of that car.
47:19
So 47 years between them and we made 47 of those uh of those.
47:24
>> You have one of the 47. That's what I just saw. >> Correct. Yeah.
47:25
I have two of the 47 because it came in purple and black and I have one.
47:29
>> Of course you have both. >> Of course I do.
47:30
So So when we worked with BMW, I'm bringing this up because globally in Seoul, Tokyo, France, London, New York, Miami, LA, Dallas, Chicago, there'll be lines outside of every door that we have globally.
47:45
Now I know that there are very few companies that do that that have the demand in different cities and release something and on you know on release date you have lines outside the space.
47:58
I know that there are other brands that do that but I don't ever take that for granted.
48:02
So we know that we have global reach and at this point with the power that the brand has and the ambition that I have to grow outside of just product that's where Kith Ivy is born.
48:16
Explain what Kith Ivy is.
48:19
>> Kith Ivy is a membership club for avid paddle players, but also for people who want access to a spa, a very elevated spa.
48:26
And there's a private dining room with a viewing experience.
48:29
And there's a gym and there's a shop.
48:31
It's 16,000 square ft in the top floor of a building in Tribeca.
48:36
And then there's three courts that people can play paddle on upstairs.
48:40
And then we also have an Awan Juice Bar, the first Awan Juice Bar in New York.
48:44
Uh in that >> went viral when it came out. Yeah, for sure.
48:47
>> This is before me me and you even met and I was just like I saw that everywhere.
48:51
>> Yeah, it was it it was it was pretty insane.
48:53
Um and that that has become a really special place.
48:58
Um especially for me and when thinking about the space, I really built it first for me like I do with anything else.
49:05
whether it's a product or a space, I'm doing it for myself first because I know that my eye for the brand um and the lens has been a consistent lens for 15 years.
49:14
That expanded uh what the brand can do uh through a hospitality lens.
49:20
I love that portion of the business now.
49:23
And that idea then like started to trickle into like what I'm doing now with Ronnie's.
49:28
So Ronny's is a fine dining restaurant in London.
49:33
And Ronnie's Pronto is a gourmet sandwich shop with a window and a patio in West Hollywood.
49:38
And now I have plans on what I'm going to do to bring that to New York, which I'm working on now, which will end up happening the end of this month.
49:45
As I have a book here that speaks to um 1,800 designs because I spend a lot of time on footwear.
49:56
Footwear has always been the anchor but now serves as a a small a much smaller piece of the business because the Kith product has surpassed anything that we've done categorically in the brand.
50:08
But as we get into hospitality and I see the opportunity of growth, you know, outside of product, that's what I think the future of the brand will look like.
50:16
It'll be there'll be like multiple categories that sit outside of product.
50:20
What's the better business?
50:20
I I know you're not now you're not doing this for money.
50:23
Obviously, you're very successful, but like to me, wouldn't product be a better, it's a better financially performing business than hospitality. Or am I wrong on that?
50:30
>> No, you're right on that. >> Okay. >> You're right.
50:32
Um, you're right today, you know?
50:34
You're right today for my business. Got it.
50:37
>> You know, so um like I gave the brand the opportunity to grow organically and maximize its potential.
50:45
I'm planting like larger seeds in other categories of business that I plan on growing organically and authentically.
50:53
I won't force the growth, but if I feel like there is demand above and beyond what it is that I'm doing, I'm going to try to expand that.
51:00
And I think that we've provided this like experience for people who live in that area near Tribeca.
51:06
I've I I think that Kith Ivy have has changed I know that I have.
51:11
I don't think because people have told me that that space has literally changed their lives living there cuz you know like for that kind of experience you used to have to travel outside the city you know outside New York maybe.
51:23
So I think that being disruptive in the way that that is and being polarizing in the way that we uh that we show up is a part of the DNA of what we do you know as we try to disrupt other categories of business.
51:40
But it's hard for me to describe and get into like stories that sit two or three layers under the surface if if you don't first understand what it is that I do.
51:51
>> One thing I am curious about is like this very unique decision like why put in Kith treats?
51:55
Like where did that idea come from?
51:58
You did it early, but like where did that idea come from? Like why even do that?
52:02
When I expanded the Brooklyn space, I wanted to add um an element of happiness where it would 100% undoubtedly be a happy bite of something so you'd smile, right?
52:18
And I wanted there to be another way for people to consume the brand, you know, for less than 10 bucks. That was the idea.
52:24
And I knew that it would be a loss leader or I thought it would be a loss leader.
52:28
So, originally it was going to be a white chocolate bread space that I had uh for the first time in Club Med.
52:36
>> White chocolate bread space.
52:38
>> So, if what >> I traveled to uh Club Med for vacation a bunch and there in the cafeteria there's this very famous white chocolate bread and I had it there and loved it and thought of the concept for even having some kind of FNB portion of the store.
52:56
That's where I came up with the concept.
52:57
I was like, "People need to smell this."
53:00
Cuz when you walk into the cafeteria, it was like all you smelled.
53:02
People need to smell it as you're walking past the store.
53:05
So the venting out from the building, I wanted people to smell the white chocolate bread.
53:08
So I brought the chef over to New York and we started working on this white chocolate bread back at Cafe Bari on Spring and Broadway before it became the Nike store.
53:16
It was a very famous cafe.
53:17
The chef left and we tried to make it ourselves and we just couldn't make it right.
53:22
So, as we're walking to the deli, I'm watching this guy behind the counter throw frozen fruit into this machine and pulled a lever and like it was coming out soft serve.
53:33
>> So, I um I saw a box of cereal as a cereal fanatic saw cereal and saw ice cream in the tub and I paid him 20 bucks to throw it into the machine and see what happens. >> Mhm.
53:44
>> And it just it came out perfect.
53:44
So, I got the idea of mixing cereal with ice cream there at the deli while we were trying to figure out this white chocolate bread concept.
53:54
And then from there, I decided that that's what we were going to do.
53:58
So, we flipped it to the concept of a cereal bar, cereal ice cream bar.
54:02
And then from there, it grew to be a lot more than that.
54:04
But that's where it started.
54:06
And then I paid attention to people as they were eating that.
54:08
And every single person that would take a bite would smile.
54:10
And that's where the concept was was uh created.
54:15
>> But then you said initially you thought it was going to be a lost leader.
54:16
So it's just like I'm just going to get more people >> more people's attention.
54:20
This is might be their first exposure to Kith and then they're like, "Oh, this is nice.
54:24
What's happening next door?" >> No.
54:27
>> Is that the idea or No, >> no, no.
54:28
It was like people that were coming to the shop. >> Oh, see a reverse. >> Correct. >> Okay.
54:32
If you have it or if you think about it the other way around the way you just mentioned, then you're forcing the issue because what you're trying to do is you're trying to create a new consumer >> and I already had the consumer.
54:41
So everything that started, you know, when Kith was first built, I was so paranoid about whether or not we'd be able to even break even.
54:50
And then once we were able to do that, I was so happy that became just a starting point.
54:54
And the the organic base that I had growing it from there was just like idea after idea as building blocks, you know, but it wasn't until a lot later that I thought, hey, let's do something over here and start a new and start building a new consumer.
55:10
I'm glad you said that because it ties to back to ex where this this like tangent we've been going on in the most beautiful way of the conversation.
55:18
It's like well yeah but I just want to focus on like the 10 to 15% that I really love and not this other stuff.
55:22
And the reason I thought of the ice cream as the reverse cuz I just read this very obscure biography of Sam Walton and in you know people don't understand he built obviously they understand built the largest retail empire in the world but for the first
55:33
five and a half years of his career he had one single store in a town of like 2,000 people and he did not know how he did not have what you had where like I have the people already how do I continue to serve them which is where you're going to he's like I need to get them in the store. So he put like an ice
55:44
So he put like an ice cream uh cart out front. He'd do popcorn.
55:47
He would do all this stuff.
55:47
Get more people in more people.
55:49
Which is why I drew the analogy and you're like, "No, no, I already have the people this core group of really we're building a really special almost like and I mean this in a the the you know in like a positive way.
56:00
It's like this cultlike following." >> Yeah.
56:03
>> And then okay you that is so special and rare.
56:05
How do we continue to serve them and extend it?
56:07
Not the other way around.
56:09
All of our growth has been based off of that.
56:11
How do I service my consumer in the best way possible?
56:15
How do I give them the opportunity to have the best experience?
56:20
And then from there, we gained more consumers.
56:23
>> And then you knew this because you remember go back to that story about the the gray Timberlands, right?
56:26
This is pre- internet, right?
56:28
It's like they if you serve this cultlike following that you have, they will go out and recruit other people on your behalf. >> 100%.
56:35
And that when it happens organically in that way and people then hear it word of mouth rather than seeing it on Instagram and like becoming curious off of a photo that the bridge of emotion that people have to the brand, it just becomes a way stronger bridge, right?
56:52
When they could discover it themselves based off of what what people said or when they walk into the space for the first time.
56:57
people in their minds um don't necessarily think the space would be as grand as it is when they walk in.
57:07
So, a lot of the times and you know through conversations with some of my GMs in the store like yo people walk in with suitcases first stop from the airport and they'll walk into the store and just stand there and he's like it happens multiple times a day where I have to like like excuse me do you need help or and they're like no I just we're just taking it in.
57:29
Like walking into the West Hollywood store today it's jaw-dropping.
57:34
It's like every time I walk in there, I still I'm like emotional when I walk in because I'm I can't believe we've gotten to the point where I can build this for the community for people to come in and have this kind of space.
57:45
I could build a space where the product sells itself.
57:47
At this point, the product has such a great following because there's so much value in the product.
57:52
I don't need to build these amazing spaces at $13,400 a foot, which is what luxury brands are spending.
57:58
But I do that because this is like how I give back to the consumer for giving them an experience they could come in and really cherish, you know, and then they make days out of it where families will come to the store and spend time like real time in the space and then they'll go to treats or they'll go to Ronnie's and they'll they'll really make a day out of it.
58:16
So I never take people's time for granted, you know, I never take people's, you know, spending power for granted.
58:23
And I always feel like we need to make better product and offer more at the same price point.
58:27
Like those type of philosophies of the end result of what people get and the substance of what they feel is very different from like trying to change human behavior in in the way that Steve Jobs has done in the past of like you know what his his creations are to better people's lives but through the change of human behavior from going from one style of technology to another.
58:53
This is familiar product where if you're buying clothes, you're buying clothes.
58:59
Like we're not inventing something new there.
59:02
But when you when you buy an item like the shirt that I'm wearing for example, um, and you put it up, you know, dollar for dollar against other product in the market, I do believe, and this is touch and feel.
59:16
If you want to post two pictures next to each other, you could post a Unilo t-shirt next to a kit t-shirt, not know the difference, and argue about the price point.
59:23
But this is for the people that know and that Kif is built for the people that know the difference.
59:28
Know the difference between what?
59:30
Good product versus great product.
59:32
And that's really the motto of the brand.
59:34
Say more about how you think about pricing though.
59:37
>> I always feel that um people should get more than what they pay for.
59:41
So where we price product within the marketplace becomes really important to be not only to be competitive because that's not really the challenge for us.
59:51
It's mostly about and we don't look elsewhere at price points even though I I study the market um just to have the knowledge but it's not I don't necessarily apply that as to how we price our product.
1:00:05
We look at the at the at the at the previous season or the year before to see how product was priced and we try to better the product sometimes at the same price or by elevating price points a little bit but getting a lot more for the product.
1:00:20
So it's not necessarily a formula.
1:00:22
It's more of like a touch and feel of like being in the business for 30 years and just know 31 years and now knowing the difference between good and great.
1:00:30
>> Have you read uh this book called the luxury strategy?
1:00:32
It's a red book with white letters. >> I haven't.
1:00:35
>> I haven't. Okay, I'm going to send it to you because it goes into I think what you're you're hitting on is like well there's other people in in industry and especially luxury industry where it's like they know there's a human
1:00:45
psychology like uh pricing is like shortcut for us like we're all busy and it's like >> if you actually increase the price without reinvesting into the product it makes the in some categories it makes it more desirable and it actually increases the line and the demand for it. You're
1:00:57
You're saying no no no I'm not trying to maximize and do some kind of psychological trick. >> That's a bubble. That's a bubble. what you just mentioned.
1:01:05
>> Well, it's it's very enduring in human nature actually.
1:01:06
But my my point being is like >> it's like but I don't want to just make money for the sake of making more money.
1:01:12
If I'm going to charge more, I want them to get more value.
1:01:14
Is that am I understanding what you're saying? >> 100%.
1:01:16
And I think the consistency of that thought process that I have has been why we've been able to grow at the rate that we've grown. >> Right.
1:01:25
So like I I think that the consumer has seen that year over year.
1:01:28
And a lot of the kids, like a lot of these um kids that are I won't even call them kids, these dads that are my age at 44, a lot of them have come up with a brand, you know, from when they were 30 or 29.
1:01:41
My number one following uh age range is between 28 and 35.
1:01:44
And then number two is 35 to 44.
1:01:47
I feel like the growth that people have had for the last 15 years of consistently seeing the progress has they felt like they've been part of the journey and we've we've gone so far like with creating product that just it's it's actually mind-blowing when you look at the first collection versus the collection today.
1:02:08
versus the collection today. We didn't have any footwear doing >> you can see this in this book right >> this this book is different because >> it's just a foot >> the foot the footwear is collaborative and I I had 15 years under my belt
1:02:19
before working on this product like the first shoe was 15 years later in my career where apparel >> my first product was in 2012 so like when you think about that that's like 14 years ago and and looking at the progress there there'll be a a much bigger delta than in this book. Would
1:02:37
Would you make another book just on apparel?
1:02:41
>> You know, I thought about it for the 15 year, but after, you know, we were building the second floor of my office a few years ago. So, we expanded.
1:02:46
We have 60,000 ft on the on um the third floor.
1:02:52
And then I took another 30,000 ft for the design studio on the second floor.
1:02:57
Before we started building on the second floor, I I I knew I had like six to eight months to design the space.
1:03:01
So, I knew I was going to have an empty space.
1:03:04
We already took the space.
1:03:04
So, my archavist, his name is uh uh his name is Jordan Bloom.
1:03:09
I had him lay out all of my footwear from day one in chronological order.
1:03:15
>> Is this the picture I just saw on Instagram? >> Yeah.
1:03:17
Yeah, it's that's dope, man.
1:03:18
>> So, so that um and it's actually it's in here.
1:03:21
So, the first um the first time the first time I got to see all of my work in one place was a few years ago when I saw this.
1:03:32
And I actually did that because I've never seen it before.
1:03:37
So I was just curious to see the progression myself, you know, like I wanted to see how far we've come in footwear.
1:03:43
And it's impossible for you to see 1,800 different shoes by flipping through photos or organizing it in a way where you're going to see the progression. It has to be in person.
1:03:53
Other there's no other way to do it.
1:03:53
So when I saw it, two things happened.
1:03:55
The first thing was people need to see this.
1:04:01
And then I was like, people need to see it physically like we need to do this.
1:04:04
So the first idea was we need an exhibition for this product which we're doing the end of this month.
1:04:08
I showed you the index and the index is all of my product that released but more importantly all of my unreleased product and the unreleased product are samples that led to the release pair.
1:04:19
So there's like 800 uh or so released pairs and then there's another thousand or so unreleased pairs.
1:04:27
So, I wanted to have them all in one space and basically have a show.
1:04:33
It's called Walk the Index.
1:04:33
So, we're going to have um a digital version of the index uh uploaded onto people's apps like onto the Kith app.
1:04:41
And you need the Kith app to walk in.
1:04:43
So, then you can look at it and really walk the index of the book, which I felt was really cool.
1:04:48
And then people will obviously be able to buy the book there.
1:04:52
And then for those four days um that the show will be open for, we also have panels with each of the four biggest collaborators which are um Nike, Adidas, New Balance, and AS6.
1:05:02
And there's some senior leadership that are coming down for that.
1:05:06
On top of the exhibition, Ronny's will launch for the first time in New York via truck.
1:05:12
And the truck that we built, it's a really special truck.
1:05:18
It's going to feature what I'm calling the Ronnie's meal.
1:05:19
So, there's two sandwiches that really blew up.
1:05:21
One in London, uh, called the OG Burger and then, uh, one in LA in West Hollywood called the Wagu Pronto.
1:05:29
And the Wagu pronto is a Wagu pastrami sandwich.
1:05:32
And then the burger is this Wagu burger. It's incredible.
1:05:36
Uh, with our own uh, with our own sauce and kind of like this mix with sauteed onions and it's just one of the best burgers I think you'll ever have.
1:05:46
ever have. It comes in this red box and in the box comes one of the two sandwiches that you can order and then pronto fries and then one of the these two like frozen drinks that we make in LA and with it more importantly is a toy
1:06:00
is a toy box of a pair of shoes and I'm bringing back uh for the first time um in its original form cuz we brought it back one time with a navy soul but there's a shoe that really that that really put me on the map when I opened Kith called the Salmonto. It's a salmon
1:06:14
It's a salmon toe AS6 and it's a Gelite 3 uh in this salmon.
1:06:22
Uh the whole toe is blocked with salmon and there's like uh navy on the quarter with white stripes. It's beautiful.
1:06:25
So a a miniature version of those shoes will come in a small shoe box and then that'll be basically the toy in the Ronnie's meal.
1:06:33
The truck will only serve a Ronnie's meal that like that's the only product it'll serve and it comes with the options I mentioned.
1:06:38
uh that will launch um for the exhibition uh where we're launching the exhibition, which I can't name right now.
1:06:45
And then uh the truck then gets positioned in front of the flagship store uh after the exhibition full-time.
1:06:52
So, and and I got the city to approve me having outdoor seating in front of my store in Lafayette.
1:06:57
So, then I'm going to have like the Ronny's truck um station there.
1:07:02
We're going to launch also delivery for the full menu out of a ghost kitchen uh which will happen I think the end of October.
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1:08:22
I love this idea of like keeping a catalog of past work and looking back through it.
1:08:25
on my other podcast founders where I read just biographies of fish entrepreneurs.
1:08:28
I I went down this like fashion designer thing for a while and so I did like Koko Chanel and like Ralph Lauren and then Balenciaga and like I think of Balenciaga now as kind of like not my insult I was like this is like you know not my thing but what's interesting is I'm always interested like who in the top of their profession like who do they say is the best. >> Okay.
1:08:48
Like Warren Buffett has this idea which like well if you want to invest in a company and in an industry go around asking all the leaders in the industry and say hey you got one bullet you can take out one guy who is it going to be right and usually they'll all say the same guy he's like that's the guy you should invest in. So he has this.
1:09:00
So it Balenciaga was that where like Koko Chanel, Christian Dior, they called him like the the master of us all, I think was one of the quotes.
1:09:07
And I didn't So I was I got to like obviously what I think of Balenciaga now and what how they thought about him back then is crazy.
1:09:14
But Balenciaga, if you haven't read about him, uh I'll send you some good Bible recommendations.
1:09:18
He essentially redid his stores almost like a it was like a church.
1:09:22
He had like a reverence, a religious reverence of what he was doing.
1:09:25
But one of the most fascinating things is he had notebooks of because he would not only design but he would also physically like sew everything together.
1:09:33
He was like one of the few coutur or yeah master whatever they called and um but I thought that idea of like okay your career in his case I think it's he started relatively late let's say spent 20 years he can go back and be like what was I doing 18 years ago. >> Yeah.
1:09:47
But as an artillier that he was like he to to to me um and it's very important like especially in footwear I got to learn how to make a shoe from scratch also.
1:09:58
So going back and looking at the progress um that we made also the knowledge working with certain brands and some brands do things better than others.
1:10:08
So, the amount that you pick up along the way working with this many brands, I feel like in footwear, um, I've become the most well-rounded like knowledgeable person in footwear because I got to see between athletic shoes and brown shoes and boots, like I got to really learn how these brands make product, go to the factories, go to their offices, and like really understand the dynamic of what makes them so special.
1:10:36
So this this book um it stands for so much more than just the product at face value.
1:10:43
Uh it's to me it's a timeline of of of feelings that I had and knowledge that I gained along the way. Okay.
1:10:52
So, like when I think back to a moment, there are things that you'll remember based on current, you know, based on certain events or based on certain news and um milestones in your life, based on certain, you know, things that happened in your family or whatever it is.
1:11:07
I remember my life through product.
1:11:09
So, like I think back to when I got married and and I think about also the product during that time like the product when my my first baby was born.
1:11:20
my my first baby was born. um when my first store opened or all the stores along the way I have product that >> your life milestones are anchored to the products you were creating which goes back to again why the soulful we talked before we started recording it's like when I say like what I'm trying to
1:11:36
understand is like I can't understand >> the way you push your work until I understand the personality of the person that developed the ideas right I seek to understand who the [ __ ] is sitting across from me like why how the hell I ask you like you're 13 how the hell do you get interested in shoes and so Then it's like, oh, think about the culture he's in. Think about where he's living.
1:11:53
Think about where he's living.
1:11:55
Think about what he's listening to.
1:11:56
Think about what is around him.
1:11:56
It's like you can't understand Ronnie unless you understand everything that happened then. Yeah.
1:12:00
Taking the like going back to that like taking the taking two buses to high school, the Q17 to the Q30 or taking the train to work when I took the F train from the last stop on 179th in Hillside to Broadway Lafayette or West 4th when I used to work at 8th Street.
1:12:17
what you see on the train because you pass by certain neighborhoods, right?
1:12:22
Each stop or every other stop would be like a different culture hopping on the train >> cuz cultures are spread out and they you know they create communities and then they they get on the train in packs and like along the way from the la basically the first stop on the FRA to the or the last stop I should say going to the city what I got to see became my world. That was my influence.
1:12:45
I got to see so many different styles, people dressed in so many different ways.
1:12:49
And that's when the sense of individual individuality was at an all-time high.
1:12:53
Before you were influenced by, you know, your algorithm, which now like a lot of a lot of people want the same things because they're it's based off of what they see or, you know, what brands have to um have to basically pay for in terms of like mass distributing content.
1:13:14
We lived in such a different era.
1:13:16
I got to see people walk in to a store, have no idea what they're looking for, have no idea about the brands, and I got to see what they gravitated to first based off of a visual of what they thought looked different or looked, you know, on par for what they wanted to wear.
1:13:34
So, I got to understand why so many different people liked so many different products for so many different reasons.
1:13:41
And that became a big part of who I am because it became a part of why I like product, you know, that was my influence basically is seeing so many different styles and then forming my own edit.
1:13:53
It's like that that's that's a lost art.
1:13:56
>> Wait, wait, say more about that.
1:13:56
I got to see so many different styles.
1:13:57
So, you're taking in all this information, you're essentially synthesizing it, putting in your head, and you're like, "Okay, what's my spin or take on this?"
1:14:05
>> Like, what's my opinion on it?
1:14:05
Like back then when you go when you went shopping back then you you were forced to have an opinion cuz you wouldn't have seen everything.
1:14:14
Like if you were to see if you would see a music video, you'd see one or two different shoes, right? Or boots.
1:14:19
If you were to open up a magazine, you'd see 10 different boots.
1:14:24
But then you walk into a store, you see 500 different boots.
1:14:25
So it's like you're walking in and you're you you were forced to have an opinion.
1:14:30
Today, people will walk into a store and know about all the product before they walk in.
1:14:34
So they've already seen someone wearing it, a photo of it, a lookbook of it, a campaign of it.
1:14:42
>> They're like outsourcing their taste to somebody else. >> Yeah.
1:14:44
And and not to say that people weren't influenced by media back then.
1:14:47
They were, but it was a much smaller aperture, you know, like of what people were seeing and then you'd come in and back then you were just forced to have your own opinion.
1:14:56
>> I feel like I get the vibe like you want to live in more of like an analog wall, man. [ __ ] hell. I do for real.
1:14:59
Like if and I tell I tell my wife this every day like I just I wish that I could throw my phone away.
1:15:08
I wish that I could and and you know what's funny is that I really feel just like um fashion is very cyclical.
1:15:15
I feel like um people's thought processes are also like cyclical and the way people think about how their lives are influenced.
1:15:24
I feel like that's also cyclical.
1:15:26
Meaning, if you had had a taste of what we had pre- internet, like I just find myself [ __ ] begging for analog, for for just the physical.
1:15:39
I want to be influenced outside of digital.
1:15:41
I want to travel and shut my [ __ ] off and just not have a connection to the internet.
1:15:47
You know, something we had when we were kids is like you were just forced to be bored and alone with your own thoughts.
1:15:53
>> And my my daughter is like, I'm bored. I'm like, that's great.
1:15:57
That's amazing that you have to that's when you use your imagination when you're bored.
1:16:01
>> But that's also where difference comes in.
1:16:02
We I just I just flew to Milan because um I I meet a lot of founders like entrepreneurs like I meet a ton of them and >> I met this guy named Luca Ferrari who does this company called Bending Spoons >> and I remember having lunch with him back in like February and literally the lunch was so like jarring cuz he was describing how he built his company and ideas I'd never even heard of anywhere else especially for he's he's our age too. >> Yeah.
1:16:25
And I was like, "Dude, stop.
1:16:25
You got to run that back."
1:16:27
I pulled out and I we were on WhatsApp together and I just like light light him up on like all the stuff he's saying.
1:16:32
And I was like, he's like, "What are you doing?"
1:16:33
I was like, "I'm taking notes on your very unique ideas for when you do the show."
1:16:38
He didn't even agree to do the show.
1:16:38
I just assumed I was like, "Dude, you got weird [ __ ] in your head. I need to get it out."
1:16:42
But one of the things he said was like, you know, he's building a tech company, but he grew up in a little village of 900 people.
1:16:46
His parents were hairdressers.
1:16:48
And he's just like, "I started in Copenhagen, then I moved to Milan."
1:16:51
And he's like, I couldn't copy the startup tech startup mantras because I didn't even know they existed.
1:16:56
So I was forced to he was essentially like he was in a digital world, but he was like how we were in kids.
1:17:02
He was just like I only had my own thoughts and my own thinking.
1:17:05
And because I was involved with my own thoughts and my own thinking, not influenced by everything else cuz he doesn't pay attention.
1:17:11
>> This is where you get the creativity.
1:17:13
This is where you get the centric stuff.
1:17:14
This is where you get actual differentiation. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep.
1:17:16
And that that's very similar in the sense that like Queens played such a big part in my life because Queens you get to see so much.
1:17:26
It's just New York City is honestly the most inspiring place in the world because there's so there's so much thrown at you every day.
1:17:34
Even if you even I'm talking about outside of digital like just walking around you you you get to see so much.
1:17:40
So, in the sense of what I want to accomplish, it's beyond the typical cookie cutter retail brand, you know, concepts that have have helped shape these brands that we all know.
1:17:56
I want to sit way outside of that and I want um I want the brand to be doing so much more than that.
1:18:04
So if you knew exactly what it is that I that I do within the context of the culture which within I'm which is what I'm in today like the product culture or the retail culture understanding how how wide we've expanded beyond the typical retail space is pretty extraordinary but where we go from here and how it could expand from there is even like is even greater than that.
1:18:32
So, I'm trying to not have any boundaries in the way that I think about the business, if that makes sense.
1:18:38
>> This is actually a really important point.
1:18:39
And I have certain people in my life that I go to that kind of like this like living board of directors.
1:18:43
And what a lot of the case is is like you're obviously ambitious and driven.
1:18:47
Every single person that's going to be on the show is ambitious and driven. I feel the same way.
1:18:51
But like there's certain people in my life that like you'll talk to about what's going on.
1:18:55
Like, oh, you have like this weird ceiling that like actually doesn't exist.
1:18:58
It's like why don't we just rip that [ __ ] off because it doesn't exist.
1:19:01
Do you have any like that's corporate structure though?
1:19:05
But like no but but like in your own personal life when you're thinking about directing your company and you're saying, "Hey man, I got I got I got big [ __ ] dreams.
1:19:11
I got stuff that's not I don't think of myself as like I might be part of this culture, but like I can expand out of it.
1:19:16
I can do whatever I want.
1:19:18
I'm not looking left and right.
1:19:19
I'm focused on what I want to do."
1:19:19
Do you have anybody in your life that's just like can like peel the top off your head and be like, "Hey man, you have no no ceilings. You have no limits."
1:19:25
>> My partner Sam has allowed me to do that. Yeah.
1:19:28
my business partner and he's always been someone who I could speak to who has given me the energy to go and chase whatever it is I have in my mind.
1:19:37
I listened to an episode um one of your episodes this morning.
1:19:40
I'm not even sure what it was um where you just rambled about Steve Jobs. It's incredible. Right.
1:19:46
But but >> that's how you know he listens to the show.
1:19:50
>> The episode was about uh simplicity. >> Oh yeah.
1:19:52
How Steve Jobs kept things simple. Correct.
1:19:53
That's for my other podcast founder.
1:19:55
I think it's episode 349 or 350. Okay.
1:19:56
Okay, somebody look it up. See if I'm right.
1:20:00
>> That would be pretty remarkable actually.
1:20:01
But but when when it's similar to when Steve Jobs got into music, >> it's like what the [ __ ] is Apple doing getting into music, right?
1:20:08
>> And I'm sure it raised a lot of eyebrows, but for him to for him to take on that initiative and he he had shareholders and had a lot more pressure than I did from the financial standpoint. >> 349. >> Wow.
1:20:23
>> What are you up to now on Founders? >> 432. Where's Ian?
1:20:27
He p he he published it for me yesterday. 435 something like that. Yeah.
1:20:30
I'm going to do I end everyone I'm like 435 down,000 go and thousand never ends cuz people like oh you're going to do 1,435.
1:20:36
It's like no that's like I'm going to do this so I'm dying.
1:20:40
>> It's it's actually incredible, man.
1:20:40
It's it's really incredible cuz I just like I go through my workout and you're just [ __ ] wow, >> dude.
1:20:46
I'm walking to dinner last night.
1:20:48
The crazy thing is um you know Michael uh like just every time I come to New York I text him was like cuz I just I I care a lot about him.
1:20:55
He first like I looked up to him before I even knew who he was.
1:20:57
I was making episodes on him and we become friends and he's just a [ __ ] wild man.
1:21:00
Even in his I think he's 82, he's still [ __ ] crazy.
1:21:02
And dinners were absolutely insane.
1:21:03
I won't even I'll tell you off camera what happened last night.
1:21:06
I'm walking to dinner and some dude literally test me on the shoulder and he's listening to Larry Gagzian 325.
1:21:11
See if I'm right about that for for me.
1:21:14
>> And he's like whiskuit over here. >> Yeah.
1:21:15
And he's like, "Dude, he goes I I'm in [ __ ] sales."
1:21:17
And he goes, "I listen to this to hype me up over and over again."
1:21:21
because essentially Larry goes and built a billion dollar empire with a phone and like he's saleserson. >> 325 >> boom 325. >> Look at that.
1:21:29
>> Um and and so that but I do the same thing like I'll go back and listen to him because it like it reinforces the lessons of hypes me up.
1:21:33
But anyways, >> what does it what does that do for you? It hypes you up.
1:21:37
>> Like I I really think so the reason I brought up Balenciaga earlier, the reason I think like me and you would get along is like I'm doing it for like I have soul in the game.
1:21:45
Like I thought first of all I think podcasting is a miracle.
1:21:47
miracle. I think what we talked about before we started recording to find that any subject in the world you want to listen to you will find somebody has gone deeper than any college course in existence >> incredible >> and anything you want to learn you can learn on demand for free while your eyes are busy >> in this format too which is incredible
1:22:02
>> I thought it was remarkable when I discovered in 2010 I still think it's a [ __ ] miracle to this day and so what I would say is it's like I I make the podcast that I want to listen to and then I think there's like a so there's a bad part to this and I'm going to ramble a little bit but like you know like my mom was like fundamentals Christian. So
1:22:17
So I was like forced to go to church every Sunday, right?
1:22:20
It was like in the south and unfortunately like you know this took a bad turn.
1:22:24
She wound up having breast cancer and I like she would try to initially pray the cancer away.
1:22:29
Like that's how [ __ ] extreme it was.
1:22:31
And it took me like 2 years to convince her to go to an oncologist.
1:22:34
I don't want to start [ __ ] crying now, but like to the point where I'd had to drive, she was so stubborn in her religious views.
1:22:40
I'd have to drive from Miami where I was living to Orlando where she was living to every time she had a college appointment.
1:22:46
If I didn't show up and I didn't drive her, she wouldn't go.
1:22:48
And she wind up dying a [ __ ] horrific death.
1:22:51
So like I obviously don't want to get into that now.
1:22:54
>> But what I would say is like >> the benefit of growing up in church and I didn't realize this until you see this on Founders like I kind of have like the southern like preacher thing because I'm very [ __ ] I consider myself an evangelist.
1:23:06
Not a I'm not a journalist.
1:23:07
I'm an evangelist for entrepreneurship.
1:23:09
And so like the way I think about everything that we're doing is it's like man the reason that religions or cult followings or brands thrive is because the repetition over time over and over and over again.
1:23:22
So for me it's like listen episode 349.
1:23:24
I read the book I recorded it. I edited it.
1:23:26
I listened to it before it came out and I published it and I bet you I go back there and I still forget some of the [ __ ] So I will go back and I think it's people overestimate.
1:23:34
We forget that we forget.
1:23:36
We forget that we forget.
1:23:36
And I think going back to great designs in the book, great books that you freaking read, great podcast, great movies.
1:23:42
I've seen Godfather 2, I don't know, 15 times. I still learn stuff.
1:23:47
I've gone through every single episode of Game of Thrones, I don't know, 10 times.
1:23:51
I still take notes on it.
1:23:52
And so that that's what it does for you.
1:23:53
It just reinforces these lessons and like gives me energy.
1:23:55
And then inevitably, you're going to run into some today.
1:23:58
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but definitely next month, two months, you're going to run into some [ __ ] problem in your book, in your business.
1:24:05
and you're gonna go be like, man, I need like another set of eyes on this.
1:24:08
Or like, oh, then you, oh, this is what Steve Jobs, this is how he kept it simple, or this is what he did.
1:24:13
So, >> and I I'll definitely apply some of that stuff.
1:24:15
But let me tell you something, folks, for everyone who's listening right now.
1:24:18
If you can create content that you can then go back to to hype yourself up, you [ __ ] made it in life.
1:24:27
So, congratulations to you for that.
1:24:29
>> So, we have another podcaster because I'm also obsessed with other podcasters.
1:24:32
was Jackson Dolls off camera and uh there's actually a funny Can you pull up the tweet between me, you and Sam Hinky about this and um so I I I spent a lot of time with other podcasters.
1:24:42
I think Jackson's one of the most talented people.
1:24:44
We talk a lot about like the business and like he you know other podcasters will come in and like shadow what we're doing because we're trying to you know operate at the very highest levels here.
1:24:51
But there's a the tweet exchange between Jackson and my friend Sam Hanky.
1:24:55
Sam is talking about me because I was talking about like when I listen to I listen to every episode before it goes out. Yeah.
1:25:01
>> And sometimes I find myself like laughing at stuff that happens.
1:25:03
So Sam Hinky responds to this tweet where I'm talking about laughing.
1:25:06
He goes, "Good luck competing with the maniac that cracks himself up while recording his solo podcast, which he remembers because he loves listening to his solo podcast."
1:25:14
>> Then Jackson, who's sitting off off camera here, he goes, "This is this is July 22nd, 2025."
1:25:18
He goes, "He once told me he just loves podcasts so much, but there's simply not many great ones.
1:25:23
So the rational conclusion is that he usually finds himself listening to his own episodes again.
1:25:30
>> Yo, if you're listening to yourself as first option, that's crazy. But you know what?
1:25:35
>> What are you doing for yourself? That's incredible. >> It's the same thing.
1:25:38
>> I think you might be the only one. But but I love that.
1:25:41
>> Let's go back to before I interrupted and started rambling to you was talking about Steve Jobs of music.
1:25:46
>> Um >> I I want to I want to touch on Ivy because >> Okay, go for it.
1:25:49
>> Um you asked me about Ivy and I want to I want to just go back to that for a second.
1:25:52
So, three or four years ago, I spent um uh I spent the season in Miami and uh I got introduced to Wayne Voch.
1:26:02
Wayne uh is the founder of Reserve, which is um he builds like paddle courts, also built like a membership club in um in uh Seplane in Miami.
1:26:09
And I used it as my office and we were playing paddle all day.
1:26:15
I was taking calls all day and I I just became obsessed with the sport.
1:26:18
But what I realized with people that were playing, they didn't know how to dress for the sport.
1:26:25
And as I became like obsessed with the sport, I was like watching people come and play in like vintage TE's and basketball shorts.
1:26:30
And it was it was throwing me off.
1:26:31
Honestly, I thought to myself like, well, how can I start to like help shaping how this sport can potentially look and feel?
1:26:38
Because it was brand new.
1:26:40
The first courts I think in America were in Miami built by, you know, by Wayne.
1:26:45
But I thought for sure the sport was going to grow.
1:26:48
And as this a as the season went on, I came back home.
1:26:52
And then for the next six months, all I heard about was paddle.
1:26:54
People wanted to play paddle and didn't have a court to play on.
1:26:57
I creatively direct a Wilson tennis, but that's been behind the scenes for quite a while.
1:27:02
And we started a new line called uh Sport Professionals, which is like an elevated tier that sits within Wilson.
1:27:08
And I help them through that through design.
1:27:11
And coming back, I was like, let me start to apply some of these ideas that I have around um around tennis, but in a very different way because it's a way sweatier sport.
1:27:25
It's it's a lot more active in in the way fabrics need to feel and movements, you know, like you're spinning a lot, you're going, you know, um a lot of vertical movement, a lot of side to side movement.
1:27:36
It's very different from tennis in the way that you move in the sport.
1:27:39
So the idea of shaping the identity of a new sport that would spread in the states and become a major sport in the spa in in the space that really excited me to want to take on the sport and help shape the identity of what it would become.
1:27:54
So that then turned to the idea of the space of what Ivy looks and feels like, which if you come to this space, you'll love it.
1:28:04
probably the space I'm most um passionate about, but also I'm mostly proud of.
1:28:10
And what we've been able to build there, the community, as I start to travel to different cities and play paddle, a lot of these players are wearing Kit Ivy product because Kid Ivy is a membership club, but the product is sold on on on the website on the on the kids site.
1:28:24
So, you could still participate in the brand if you're playing paddle elsewhere and you're not a member of the club for for example.
1:28:30
So as I started to travel the world, I'm like seeing people wearing the product and it became I think the highest form of what the sport can look like and feel like.
1:28:42
So just having an idea be sparked by how I could better the sport or better the identity of the sport created this like idea around the holistic 360 view of what Ivy is.
1:28:53
And it wasn't just the shaping the identity of the apparel they were wearing.
1:28:58
It's also about the experience surrounding paddle.
1:29:00
Like what should paddle feel like?
1:29:02
Cuz paddle could very easily like be a sport that Rolex gets into or be one of the other sports that that then get thrown into like ping pong and and uh and pickle.
1:29:13
So like in which direction it will this sport go and I wanted to be a part of the progress that the sport has to then elevate it to where it is today which I think I played a part of.
1:29:26
I think that's a perfect illustration of like your idea of world building. Yeah.
1:29:30
Like telling that entire story.
1:29:32
It's also a perfect place to close our first conversation.
1:29:35
What I want to do is run this back in a few months.
1:29:37
I think we film at Ivy and we focus on I think you have a very unique almost like filmmaker view on world building.
1:29:45
But dude, thanks for taking the time. This is awesome. >> Appreciate it. This is great.
1:29:49
>> I hope you enjoyed this episode.
1:29:49
Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review.
1:29:52
And make sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders.
1:29:55
For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work.
1:30:03
Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.