I told the team before even during literally on the day of IPO after you know it's like number goes up number goes down and we don't control that number we control the inputs and we have to educate the market the market uh doesn't come out of the gate understanding Figma so it's our job to make sure that they understand our business and um and that's going to take [Music] Welcome to Access from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
I am Ellis Hamburger and I'm here today with my lovely co-host, Alex Heath. Say hi, Alex. >> Hey, Ellis.
Uh, we're on week two, man. We made it. We got through it. >> We did.
And today we have a special one for you.
We have Figma CEO Dylan Field in his very first podcast interview since the IPO.
And we know the podcast interviews are what matter most.
This was one of the biggest uh IPOs of the year in the world of tech.
>> So, we're going to get to the interview shortly.
We talk about how it feels to IPO, the future of design, #design, and of course, the acronym of the year, MCP, which Alex already has a bicep tattoo of.
>> I do uh I can't show it on camera because it's still pretty raw, but it's there.
I I also I'm just feeling good after week one.
you know, launching a new thing is is tough.
And um it was it was a um sprint to get episode one out.
Um we did it in like record time, I think, for a new pod.
Uh and yeah, how are how are you feeling? >> I'm good, man.
I'm just looking at you just like, what the heck is up with that guy?
You launched a newsletter.
You were in Menllo Park three different days on three different flights from Burbank >> trying out new gadgets. Also doing the podcast.
Yeah, >> you have dogs to take care of. >> You have kids.
>> I don't know how you survived.
What type of supplements are you on?
Is that some AG1 [ __ ] What are we talking about? >> No supplements. Um I probably need them.
Uh yeah, I do have two dogs, but you have two uh little girls, so I think I think you beat me in that. Um >> yes, my DAU. >> Your da. Yeah, man.
No, uh the the launch was awesome.
Not just of the pod, but of uh yeah, it's sources sources. news. Please check it out.
Um, and >> who named sources? >> Uh, I did. I did.
Um, >> I thought I named it. >> Did you name it?
>> Well, I think I came up with sourced.
And so, do I get to retain?
Do I get to add to my portfolio if you change? >> I dropped the D. It's cleaner. >> It's cleaner. >> Hi, Justin Timberl.
I also just want to shout out the love we got for the first episode.
Um, those who clipped us and credited and those who didn't. You know what?
I'll give you equal love.
um seem people seem to have really uh dialed in on Zuck's comments about uh how he may lose a couple hundred billion, but you know, whatever.
Their super intelligence is on the other side.
Um the interview's gotten some pickup.
I think we might be the only new podcast, Ellis, to have its first episode getting a playbyplay on TBPN and a link in the New York Times.
So, I would say congrats to us on that. >> Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, getting a quote with a couple hundred billion from the Zuck is going to do well, right?
I mean, how many people in in Earth history have ever been able to say that sentence, right? >> Yeah.
Um, to be able to say that is a thing. Yeah.
I didn't even think about that.
Um, yeah, that's it's pretty wild.
But, uh, yeah, we we had a a nice toast over the weekend at your at your house, um, with our wives who have also, uh, been a huge support and, uh, let us do this crazy thing.
Um, and shout out to them and >> shout out to them.
>> Uh, shout out to my dogs and shout out to your daughters in uh, no particular order, but yeah, man.
Um, Figma, what to say about Figma?
Uh, biggest tech IPO of the year as you said.
um and I think just a lot of attention on them, especially in the age of AI and um how they're going to compete with all these vibe coding, no code tools that are popping up.
Um just before we recorded with Dylan actually, weren't you saying you you met with a company that is wants to be a Figma killer basically?
>> Yeah, it's very funny to be doing what I do and then be interviewing the big tech founders.
I kind of represent the startups on this show. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And they all get to say, "Oh, I want to kill that company.
I want to seek and destroy."
And then I get to interview the founder of that same company >> in the same.
>> So yeah, I feel like I'm seeing seeing the matrix uh at this point.
But I mean it it it is funny.
I mean these people are all wrong all the time.
I'm just so fascinated by all the personalities behind it.
And I just try and like help these people sharpen their thesis about what it is that they're doing, why they're unique, why you are likely to beat this or that company, if that's the type of trash talk you want to do.
And uh you know, in this industry, it's all bets, right?
I think like we talked a little bit to Dylan about his investment and I feel like he just kind of eyeballs it. He's like a vibe guy.
He's like, "Yeah, that that founder seems really smart."
And Dylan is clearly very smart and well read and uh bit of a polymath.
And so I I bet you that's just kind of the rubric for him.
And he's like, "Yeah, place some bets."
And uh seems like a lot of them are paying off for him. >> Gosh. Yeah.
I mean, we get in it we get into it towards the end. Yeah.
But man, he's he's one of the best AI seed investors of all time. Like no question.
I mean, you talk to people who are in the industry and he comes up constantly.
Um and is running a public company as well.
uh and uh has has the deal flow.
So um you know that's that's the power of Zoink at Zoink which we also demystify.
I don't want to spoil too much but uh um you actually Ellis you went to Config uh Figma's big conference this year right? >> Yes.
Uh Config is a lot of fun.
It's up in San Francisco at Moscone should be familiar to uh most of the people listening to this show.
I mean, they just kind of have a cult these days.
Like, they've got totes, they've got pins, they've got hats.
Like, the swag is just, you know, probably some of the top startup status symbol. I mean, it's funny.
People show up to the conference and like they don't line up for the keynote speaker.
They line up for like the swag booth like down down the block like I need that I need that Figma crew deck. But, it it is cool.
I mean they partnered with some some you know big and small designers to kind of flex their brand and they also just like in a sea of sy black gray blue minimalism in Silicon Valley like they're one of the more colorful ones. >> Yeah.
>> Which I think speaks well to what they are about and sticks out.
I mean I think people are training themselves to think that like minimalism is somehow always better.
I mean it's just one way.
It's just a polar swing from, you know, when things get too complicated, they get simple, we unbundle, we bundle. We all know that story.
So, yeah, they they seem to have a good thing going. >> Yeah.
When I went to config a couple years ago, um I left and I I think I called it the Coachella for designers.
And I'm not sure if I was the first one to say that, but for some reason, I think it's like it stuck after that.
And it did feel like that when you're there.
I mean, I'm sure you could like it's they're they have this unique spot in the culture, I think, right now.
Um, and it's interesting to be this they're a tool.
I mean, they're they're a design platform, but they're essentially a tool, but they also have this kind of cultural footprint, which is super unique. >> Yeah.
I mean, Coachella is a good reference.
I don't know how accurate it is cuz it's a bunch of art school kids. >> Yeah.
>> Not quite as rowdy as uh as Coachella, though.
I kind of wish it was and I mean one of the things that Dylan talks about on this pod is as designers get empowered.
Uh the way companies look is probably going to get different right as AI I think helps with a lot of these traditional hard skills and research and things that you know you had to know as a founder to be an operator uh until now.
I mean I think the idea is that is that theoretically we should see a lot more design founders or product founders these days.
The biggest thing that stood out to me in the interview was talking about competition.
Uh there's a lot of questions, not just on Wall Street, but I think just people looking at Figma going, "What are lovable framer?
All these companies that are popping up and kind of abstracting away design into a prompt.
How's that going to unseat Figma or not?"
And hearing Dylan's response to that and also how it relates to their AI strategy and MCP and all of that I thought was really interesting and something I hadn't heard him say in that way before.
Ellis, should we should we get into the convo with with Dylan at zoink?
>> Let's kick it to Dylan.
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So Dylan, this is your first podcast chat since the IPO. How's how's it feeling? How are you doing? >> Good.
The um it's been intense before the IPO, intense afterwards.
I mean, I think the entire team is just eye on the prize and we're pushing hard, but it's a lot of fun right now.
There's a lot to do, a lot of exciting things that we can bring to customers and uh overall the energyy's just been very high.
>> Well, here's the real question though.
How often are you checking the stock price?
Like do you have like a lock screen widget notifications?
Like what are we talking here?
>> Uh sometimes I go like a day or two and I forget to check.
So yeah, I'm pretty focused on Figma.
Uh it's legitimately the answer. >> Okay.
Tell that to your sales team because they're struggling right now. is what I will tell you.
Having gone through the Snapchat IPO, those guys are sitting there with that stock ticker in the corner of their screen like, "Oh my god, Barclay has just downgraded us.
How am I going to explain this to my customers?" >> Yeah.
I mean, look, it's not something I spent a lot of time thinking about.
spent a lot of time thinking about. I told the team before even during literally on the day of IPO after you know it's like number goes up number goes down and we don't control that number we control the inputs and we have
to educate the market the market uh doesn't come out of the gate understanding Figma so it's our job to make sure that they understand our business and um and that's going to take time fortunately you don't have to explain to the market that you were a camera company. I would not advise that. I would not advise that.
Uh but uh yeah, I remember reading in your founder letter uh around the IPO, Dylan, that you wanted to really set yourself up with the long-term vision, thinking about, you know, years or even decades down the line.
I think we all know how fickle Wall Street can be and how short-term shortsighted.
I mean, how do you actually operationalize that? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean look I think that the first thing is just grounding like what is the long-term vision and in the founders letter but also uh with the company all the time we talk about it which is how do you get from imagination to reality and that's a vague idea uh then you have
to make it concrete and for us that means digital products how do I go from an idea in my head all the way to a digital product is shipped and there's a lot of steps along the way and uh how do we serve those on our platform form if you want to come in with whether it be
an idea on a whiteboard, you need to make a diagram, you're doing it without your team, you're doing it with uh doing it by yourself or you're making slides to align your team, you're going to Figma design to create designs for your next digital product and bring others in
to align on that or bringing them to developers or even if you want to just go from idea and a prompt all the way to a working application with Figma make, we're trying to make it so that you can do all that in one place and it all interoperates seamlessly across our platform. Uh it's a lot and certainly we
Uh it's a lot and certainly we don't complete that entire workflow today.
This is opportunities for us to go you know build to buy to partner.
Um and we're going to you'll see a lot more partnerships with us uh in the years ahead.
Uh we are not trying to do everything.
That's a recipe for failure.
And so we're always trying to figure out how do we make it so that we're able to work seamlessly with the ecosystem around us, but also build up our ecosystem.
And it's yeah, it's a really interesting time with AI to think about how far you can go there and what you can do for your users.
>> I was just going to say it's funny speaking of imagination to reality.
I mean, did you first write that in like 2012 or something like that around that time?
literally like 2012 and I was thinking about like BCIs and we're working on stuff is kind of wild but we're working on stuff in 2012 that you know you get like 85% of the way there but it's not until recently you could get to 100%.
So, for example, take a 2D image and turn into a 3D scene.
That was one of the first things we built.
And with my co-founder doing very clever combinational photography work, uh, and some complex like geometric stuff, we could actually get pretty far.
Uh, and it was wild at the time.
No one had seen anything like that.
But, um, then you kind of got stuck and it wasn't enough, you know.
Now you've got the newest models where you're able to have basically world models that are consistent.
It's uh incredible what you can do.
Or another example is just um some of the photo editing stuff we explored before we went and went into Figma and really explored UI design.
Um things like face swapping or making it so that you're able to uh really easily do Photoshop like effects uh on images.
It was so fascinating to explore, but it just wasn't ready yet and you couldn't make it a platform.
And uh I think it's really cool to see now just how much is possible.
Um but that's, you know, there's talk about imagination reality.
There's so many different ways that and so many different domains you can do that in.
Um we're starting with product design, making it so you can make uh the best digital products as a team and trying to complete that workflow.
But there's so many more workflows that we could explore in the future. >> Yeah, it's funny.
I think even with that phrasing like I'm very much a word person and I work with startups on how they express themselves and you were definitely ahead of the game there.
I think with the imagination to reality I don't if I had a nickel for every single startup in the last two years that's like bring your creativity to life.
Imagine a new reality like it's like literally like dozens of them. Have you noticed that?
I I've seen it pick up a lot more recently. Yeah.
Uh I'm like huh interesting.
interesting. And it wasn't before I had to really push for that and even at some point you know we stopped talking about those words because people found them so abstract that it was hard to recruit people and so uh I was saying you know more around democratizing design make
design accessible to all still something we care very much about >> and at the same time it's like no I I really do think in the era back to the founding vision this is the broader vision that we've always had um and now I don't think I need to be as shy about it >> if we can stay on the IPO for a second. So many founders and entrepreneurs, it's
So many founders and entrepreneurs, it's like their dream, right, to go public.
It's like the you either get sold or you go public.
Those are the two outcomes.
And I'm curious, like go having gone through it now, were there things about it that surprised you that you didn't expect?
Um, and was there anything in the process that you really loved or was it kind of a thing that in hindsight you're like, man, like so glad I got that out of the way?
Um well, first of all, I mean, I never like woke up one day and was like, I got to go IPO a company.
That's my mission in life.
Um, you know, it's a step along the way, but in a big step uh for an achievement for the people that have contributed to Figma in the past, in the present, and uh I'm really proud of their work and how it's kind of aggregated up to a moment like that.
But this is the start of Figma still.
Like we got decades and decades ahead of work to do.
Um, and I couldn't be more excited about it.
I think in terms of surprises, one of the biggest ones is that basically nothing's really changed since we've IPOed.
Yeah, you got to spend a little bit more time uh prepping for earnings, stuff like that, but otherwise we've really just been focused on the long term.
And uh the hope is that that will continue uh and we'll continue to create an environment where we can do that and that's why I want to make sure that investors understood uh with our founder letter that that's going to be our intention uh during the process itself.
I mean I think that you know the there are parts that were very enjoyable because you get to talk with all these really really smart investors and um I'm not saying every meeting was a joy.
Some of the meetings were like the same questions again and again, but there are some meetings that just blew my mind and once in a while you're meeting somebody whether you knew about them or didn't know about them before and they're asking some really insightful interesting questions and uh you know whether it's about the world or your business and that's very fun to engage and go back and forth with them.
>> Jamie Diamond, >> what do we got? What sticks out? Yeah. Yeah.
I was like >> I won't name individuals here but you know or questions but uh it's it it was in that part of it it was a fun process.
What one thing we did differently was um we had demos that we made uh kind of everyone watch before we come in and talk about the business.
And apparently this is unique.
Um to me it was just obvious want to make sure people understand what they're investing in.
Um but yeah, uh one person came out of a meeting and he pulled me aside oneonone and was like, "How do I transition to design?"
And so that was like definitely a top moment from the road show.
Uh you know, got to figure out how to get him into design now.
But it's like if I convert one investor to be a designer, that's a win, right? >> That's awesome.
It it is a funny thing trying to communicate with like such a different audience with different levels of literacy about what it is you're building.
Like being a writer, I am professionally scared of Figma even though I'm in Figma all day.
And then it's like being an investor is like a whole uh a whole step different than that.
I mean, how do you explain it to them?
You know, when you're on the earnings call and dude asks you about market headwinds and how is your guidance and you're like trying to explain how you, you know, are compatible or incompatible with what's happening in the world, like how do you explain why this stuff is important? >> Yeah.
I mean, I think that um really what people want to understand is okay, the greater context right now is that there's a lot going on in AI.
So, how does Figma fit into that?
And uh again with going from idea to product going and able to make an idea or a prompt and go all the way to working application um we see just a ton of possibility there and Figma make is a big part of what we're working on as well as improvements with AI to the Figma platform in general.
We just uh teased a video a few days ago last week where we showed how you will be able to soon make uh edits in Figma based on prompting as well.
And in one sense I think that we're so early uh it's a point in time where you know I've called it like the MS DOS era of AI.
I think we're all going to look back at this time and go, "Wow, uh we were prompting everything and there was such an opportunity to go further um and have other interfaces, other ways to explore laden space.
But on the other hand, there's so much you can do with the technology that's out there today and uh actually being able to take full advantage of it and really figure out how to engineer uh products that let you go and shape your vision uh and iterate and explore.
It's a big task and one that we've been I think definitely building all sorts of muscles around internally.
It's a different thing than your typical deterministic software engineering.
engineering. But bigger picture to me uh as value moves up the stack design is a differentiator and this is a thesis we've held for you know over a decade now uh and just I think that the sort of reasons keep stacking of why this is
true you know I couldn't articulate it when we started working on Figma but looking back it's kind of obvious you know you went from managed servers to cloud you went from box software to app stores um you know in development and tools were getting better. So of course
So of course where does value start to acrue more to well to design to the top.
Uh and I think now in a world where there's exponentially more software uh and we can argue about how steep that exponential is but it's an exponential either way.
And in that world okay how do you differentiate your product? Well it's design.
It's great user experience. It's great branding.
It's great visual design. Uh it's a point of view. It's your marketing.
And uh all that I think ladders up to design.
And if we can help support people winning through design uh and making it so that more designers become leaders, um more designers have more impact, but also more people across the company, whether they call themselves a designer or not, can participate in the design process, that's a win.
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I feel like so many of my favorite people to work with in my practice are product design founders.
Are you seeing more or less like what do they need to do to to take the reigns these days as a new founder or CEO? >> Um, yeah.
It's it's so interesting because I think that designers have all the skills that are really needed to go start companies.
Um, and if you look back, it's less than you would expect that have started companies, but I see the number growing all the time.
And I'm really excited that we have, I think, just more and more role models out there now for designers to go, okay, this is a path I should consider.
And I think that um you know if you look at the future designer leaders uh inside of companies you know in the sea suite but as well as uh designer founders and CEOs I I suspect that's like where it's headed and um I also am just seeing like some real talent war dynamics heat up for design.
I'm not saying it's like at the AI scale let's be real.
uh you know we're not seeing headlines yet about the crazy you know 10 billion whatever it is pay package uh for a designer yet but >> um the talent wars are heating up >> people are begging for zero to one design founders right now >> is like needed every founding team knows that need a designer to stand out and if they don't know it yet like you know that might be a flag if you're investing I'm not saying that uh every area requires it.
If you're some deep infrastructure science company and you barely have a website, um perhaps you don't need to have a designer in your founding team in the first five people.
But if you're building software and it's going to be userf facing, uh that's something you should be considering deeply.
I feel like there's a temptation as a design founder for better or for worse to redesign the whole company from HR to sales.
We're going to do a flat structure.
we're going to do a vertical structure, we're going to do siloed.
And I love that mindset, but I feel like it can also be distracting as like a designer who sees problems and wants to fix them.
Have you experienced that?
It's like if you think about a brand and the journey a user goes on with a brand, you kind of think about a timeline and there's all these different brand touch points.
It's like what's the equivalent for a company?
And some of those touch points, you know, feel really good for the user of Figma internally, an employee.
But what are the touch points that we can make like 10x better, 100x better?
Uh I think there's still a lot and I really want to do that as well. So yeah.
>> Do you still spend time designing?
Are are you like cranking away in in Figma yourself still?
>> Uh I would say my design contributions in comparison to the team are very low.
Uh but I think that uh my feedback is very large.
Um I usually try to do a pattern where I am uh voicing feedback through customer voice.
So the reality is if you're operating a platform at any scale uh you can find people saying things um that really represent any opinion about the product and they'll conflict.
Uh but when I can tweet >> that this feature is the best, here's a tweet that it's the worst. >> Yeah, exactly.
And our customers are amazing.
Designers are incredible.
They'll actually give very detailed feedback as you might imagine.
And so, uh, the chance to be able to funnel that towards our team is is quite great.
>> What do you feel like, uh, you've had to kind of pivot on in the last couple years in terms of the feedback you've heard once you launch something?
Uh I think the biggest thing that um I wouldn't say it's a pivot it was more just like it took time to build out was uh we had our first launch around AI um which I think was um there there are many things to reflect on for us but basically what we did is we had a feature internally called first draft and this was a uh very basic AI feature in that it was essentially an LM assembling Lego pieces.
And what happened with that was we shipped it as a a feature called make design.
And uh make design, we did not in the rush to launch do a full QA process on everything that um were all those Lego pieces.
And there were some situations uh or at least one situation where people could recreate uh UIs that shouldn't have been able to be recreated with you know Lego pieces that we had made >> like the Apple weather app I think was an example. >> Yeah. Exactly.
And so someone posted that and I think if I hadn't felt it was a QA failure, if I felt it was um you know a natural result of like a system, I might have acted differently uh and then fix the system.
But because it was a QA failure and because I felt like it didn't like sort of match up to my personal ethics of how I want to be operating this, um, we pulled it back and reintroduced it later.
And to me, that was kind of a no-brainer.
I think other people made a big deal about it.
But then it also, I think, just started our track on, okay, how do we go build the system for real?
And whether it be through um frontier models, through uh first-party models, how do we make it so that we're able to do great work with our user um get them to design generation, whether it's 0ero to one or with a design system, make it so they can create edits, they can create new effects that are extremely interesting, and eventually get to a working application, not just something in Figma design that's a stopping point, but go all the way.
uh putting that out there gave us the insights we needed that led to Figma make that led to us in the work that we're about to start shipping in Figma design and uh yeah it's it's been a big learning experience overall to figure out how to work effectively with AI systems but one that I'm really proud of the team for navigating.
I think it also raises an interesting question about what the models actually include and when there is so much out there that is kind of like the OS style.
I feel like I'm hearing lots of fears that like as much as we all prize design and craft that a lot of the generations of AI tend to be generic.
Do you worry about that for like the the soft the future of software design?
>> I think that's our opportunity.
when you're generating things and you're getting this average result, that's not what people want.
Um, I think that we're in a world where with AI, uh, you know, good enough is not enough.
Good enough is now mediocre.
So, if you really want to stand out, you have to be great.
How can Figma help make you great?
And what we're trying to do is allow you to whether it's in make or in Figma design iterate, explore um and really push the bounds of what's possible both with AI and also through the human touch and explore that entire option space of what's possible with design faster because that's to me the design process is you're looking and you're kind of seeing around corners and you're seeing here are all the paths I could go down.
Well, can you identify the paths that are most promising faster?
And can everybody from your team do that too?
Can you make it so that more people can contribute ideas at the start and then as a designer you can guide the process and you can keep pushing further uh to make it so that what the end result is is very differentiated.
>> Do you feel like designers are still worried about losing their jobs though right now? It's interesting.
I was I was at an event last night here in Hollywood and it was more Hollywood people but people on the production side and just there's so much fear in the room about the tools and what they're doing and enabling and I have to I mean I'm not a designer and I'm not in the world like you and Ellis but I have to imagine there's a lot of fear and consternation among a lot of Figma users that like my job's going to go away because of this stuff. >> Yeah.
I mean, I can't speak to the Hollywood side, but we actually did a survey around this recently and um put out a report on it and it was um I'm looking at the numbers right now.
It was 17% uh of our respondents that said developments in tech tools and AI are a threat to my role.
So, that was the actual number that we got from the survey.
Um now, you could argue is 17% high, is it low?
But I I certainly don't think it's like everyone's going, "Oh my gosh, what's going to go what's going to happen here?"
Uh, and I think it's because designers kind of intuitively know this is uh an opportunity for us with AI.
You know, Figma's point of view is is going to lower the floor, make it so more people can get into the process, but also raise the ceiling and make it so that you're able to do even more with AI.
And I think the more we can remove the drudgery of uh repetitive tasks, things that um you know maybe are uh easy to conceptualize or describe um but you know right now they're tedious to execute.
That's something that AI can help with.
For example, one feature we shipped super early on was rename layers. Um very basic feature.
It just you press a button and it looks at all your layers and it gives them a name.
And you might go, "Okay, well, what's the big deal?"
Well, designers can take hours to rename the layers right now in a complex file.
And if you're someone who likes to have the clean desk and be very structured, uh, you might really care about your layers having all the perfect names.
And so this is something that saved, you know, countless hours of time for designers already.
Okay, now think forward into what else you could do that for and how else you can remove TDM and get people to uh the point where they're able to actually explore ideas further, explore more ideas.
That's the promise to me.
>> Have you made anything good lately? >> Huh?
I've uh I've made some like internal tools uh for myself. Um I experiment a lot.
You know, I try to do uh a bunch of like very random experiments that are kind of like a little bit more artsy.
Some of the things that I've seen others make that uh are far more impressive than what I've created myself.
Um you know, I've saw some really cool typography tools recently that just blew my mind as part of our Make Hackathon.
Um, I, uh, saw some people that made like some pretty cool like interactive experiences, games, um, and, uh, you know, even like things like complex synthesizers, um, you know, uh, poetry explorations and not all these are products per se, but just the creativity of our community is kind of like always amazing to see.
And uh sometimes they also went outside the field of software.
You know there's uh some users that were exploring ways to understand uh biology better and uh DNA RNA sequences.
So yeah, it's pretty exciting to me to see what you can do when you start to hook up these data workflows and make it so that you can uh really visually explore data in that way too.
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MCP is fascinating to me.
For people who don't know, I think it's what?
Model, context, protocol. Is that right?
Um, and you guys have this pretty hilarious video for your server that you put out this week uh that people should check out.
>> Definitely everyone should watch this.
Dude, >> oh my god, >> awesome.
It's good because it also explains it in a way that I think is more digestible because MCP is like a very heady thing to understand.
Uh even if you're into tech, like you have to be in it to get it.
At its highest level, I think of it as like how apps use LLMs to talk to each other and to share data between each other.
And it's in the like pre-netscape era.
There's not even like a browser to see all these servers, right?
But like you have one bunch of other companies that are embracing have embracing AI have them.
And I'm curious because you know when we were prepping for this obviously a big concern with Figma's like what is competition and AI and all these companies that are popping up going to do to Figma uh and like prompting and all this stuff.
And I'm curious actually to back into that question like the way you all are embracing MCP uh and working with other companies and really opening Figma up.
What does that say about where you see Figma fitting in the the value stack so to speak of like the AI world?
Because there's this huge conversation obviously about like are you just an app?
Are you a foundational model provider?
Are you trying to do both? Where did the apps sit?
And it seems like you have a POV on that and you're articulating it already with the MCP strategy.
So I'd love for you to to maybe like dive into that with us.
Yeah, I mean without going too much into uh you know all the strategy and future road map um I think that first of all the physics of the AI space uh are there's sort of a gravitational pull towards being more open and I think it's important to recognize that and to follow it.
I also think that the goal is to get you from idea to product.
And yes, we want to give you all the best tools that you could possibly have in the Figma platform, but if forever reason you want to go elsewhere, um, how do we make it so that you can bring your context from Figma to other applications?
And also in the future, how do you come back?
Uh, and how do we have a great loop?
And again, I I think that there's so much partnership we can do uh with the ecosystem here.
And I I think it's uh there's actually quite a lot of win-wins even with tools that people think are our competitors.
Uh, and so it's been nice to have just very open and friendly conversations with many of the tools in the space in order to make it so that we're able to figure out what can that foundation be so that your users can have a better experience and also they can go iterate and uh get to the point where they are in a high craft place uh beyond what you might be able to do in another tool in Figma afterwards.
And so, you know, lots to come, but uh ICS is a really core part of our strategy and what we're doing in the future.
>> So, theoretically, like Lovable, I think, is a good example of a company that I think people from the outside or Figma investors would go the rise of Lovable maybe suggests Figma has some competition to worry about.
Are you suggesting that like maybe you would partner with Lovable and you could bring Figma assets into something like Lovable?
Maybe we don't have to say lovable as a specific example, but the rise of these no code vibe coding tools like them like you actually see a way to partner with them.
Is that what you're saying? >> Exactly. Yeah.
>> Exactly. Yeah. I think like um we need to have a remote MCP that uh with the right conditions of course but if you've got a partner who is uh excited to to work with you then you're able to open that up to them and that they are able
to use it to create better experiences for their users and also uh I think that can be beneficial to us again it's like context is created in a lot of places and how do you take that context as and then use it to to help them in Figma. And I think that in Figma make um
And I think that in Figma make um you know it's I guess the bigger question is uh how much do we believe in Figma make and our belief in Figma make is is very high.
Uh we think that what you can do on the Figma platform in a connected way and what we can offer users that are very is very differentiated in where we're headed.
Um, we're very excited about that and we're just uh very high conviction and so I think that also is a contributor to that whole strategy of being more open uh is that conviction.
I know a lot of companies get disrupted at the moment when they start expanding to different verticals and and this and that.
When you think about slides and buzz and make and all this other stuff, do you think of it as kind of serving the whole team in a way or serving some fundamental use case as you see it? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So basically from the start what we've done when we introduce new products is we look at Figma design and go okay what is a use case that we are seeing in Figma design uh over and over again at scale but it's underserved
and with that use case um we could either dive into it and make Figma design much more complex or we could create a new surface and Sometimes with uh for example Fig Jam uh that ends up being not just a way to create a simpler experience for people to engage in
whiteboarding, brainstorming, diagramming like we saw that spike as a need during co along with this need of I want to be in the same place with my teammates and open up conversation and make it so that we're all able to contribute to that
conversation more and Um, by making Fig Jam its own space, we're able to not only prevent complexity from occurring to Figma Design, but also it became a space where we were able to explore new concepts like how do you just make it really fun. And it was actually kind of
really fun. And it was actually kind of an interesting story cuz uh you know about a month ahead of Fig Jam launching we had this very strategic conversation kind of serious ironically uh and the conversation with my board and with the
team was like okay which way do we want to differentiate for Fig Jam and my push and what we ultimately ended up doing was let's have the differentiator be fun and the board was like all right let's Oh, the team >> boards love fun doing >> my board likes fun. And uh and my team I
And uh and my team I think was a little surprised like this is our strategy.
Okay, >> let's see how this goes.
We did a design sprint like one day and out of that day I think 20 ideas came up uh many of which made it into the product as fundamental features of Fig Jam and many of which have spread uh other places as well like cursor chat came out that day.
And so then as we go and expand the platform even further does something like slides or buzz uh these are examples of okay people are already doing Figma design we want to make it so that if you're in a product process if you're in a product team how do we give you one connected experience
across all of Figma and how do you go further through the workflows that you're already doing and these are opportunities for us to really support those workflows those personas uh with these products Consider this a formal feature request to add a hamburger sticker in Fig Jam. Please send that one to the team.
Please send that one to the team.
>> I think you can find it already, but note it.
I'll I'll see if we can make it more prominent. >> Really? >> Oh, >> okay.
I'm going to jump in there.
>> We have a Fig Jam feedback channel on Slack.
I'll be putting that in right after this.
>> At the very least, >> that's the ultimate advantage of having a podcast, right?
You get to ask for features.
>> I mean, at the very least, you can generate one.
So, you've been talking about building for the kind of latent demands for product builders.
I know when I was at config, I don't know what percent of the people were like illustrators, graphic designers, brand designers.
I feel like those needs are kind of diverging, right?
You know, the vector people versus the product and code people.
No, you're shaking your head.
>> I I think that um yeah, I have a point of view here.
Uh, I think that you look back at the Flash era and the web was a more dynamic, more wild place.
I'm not saying the quality was always like as high as it could be.
>> It was a place that crashed your browser as well.
A and maybe there was some browser crashing, but also sort of the range of what was explored, the dynamism uh and the visual styles that people were going for.
It was wide ranging in a way that we don't see today as much because there was a wild swing back first to skuomorphism and then eventually to really Swiss minimalism.
really Swiss minimalism. we kind of stayed there for a while and for a few years now it's felt like okay I think we're about to swing the opposite direction again as a reaction and I think now if you think about AI and this kind of like average output that you get
and the need to differentiate through design through craft um I actually think that something like illustration that's one example of a way to do that and there's many more uh but I actually think that the illustration needs for brand for product They're only going up right now. >> This is my favorite conversation because
>> This is my favorite conversation because Silicon Valley is not usually known for its fashion sense.
I don't know if you've put together your like iconic Dell out. >> Okay.
So, uh yeah, I also have my like ultra blingy config config badge here today.
I don't know if the investors approve this much bling.
Uh but yeah, Silicon Valley not usually known for it conversation. >> Yeah. Yeah. There we go.
And you know, a lot of times you see people on Twitter, they're like, "Oh my god, skumorphism is back."
It's like, "Wait, no, it's flat design."
And it's like, "Guys, it's just like fashion. It's gonna be cyclical. That's how it works.
There's minimalism, maximalism, serif fonts, no more seraps."
>> I mean, first of all, I have to talk about our swag.
Uh, you can find our swag store online.
Just search for Figma swag store.
But the uh >> uh but and I I think honestly our brand team is exceptional and has made amazing amazing stuff.
So definitely check it out.
But >> yeah, I think that that right now we're in a world where there's sort of more micro communities and um more micro sort of expressions of culture than before.
And this is sort of a perhaps result of the uh for you I'll go feed uh experiences that we're seeing on social media right now because you get to these little filter bubbles and um the way that people then engage with them and kind of develop in-group memes and whatnot.
Uh I think it it ends up creating you know sort of paralyzed fashion rather than uh there's one mainstream and you know everyone in New York is uh wearing this brand this month but next month you wear it like you're kind of like not anymore. Sorry.
Instead it's more like okay well do do you know what's happening uh in this corner of the internet right now?
And if not like where were you?
Um, and so I think, um, yeah, I I suspect that in terms of visual style, we're going to see a range of expression and just in general, people are going to be trying to, uh, explore a lot of different things.
And I think that's super cool, especially coming out of this era of Swiss Minimus where not as much as was explored.
>> So Dylan, we know you're an avid investor.
You just talked about finding these little niches online.
What are you seeing that's exciting you most right now?
>> Uh, I think there's just so much exciting stuff happening in the world right now.
And uh, yeah, I think it's really important for me to keep focused on Figma, of course.
And so, I mean, 150% 200% of my time is Figma, but um, yeah, I'm too curious to not always be trying to learn.
And so, I do invest as well, but I try to keep it pretty focused at this point.
Dylan, I think most full-time VCs I know would give their left arm for about 5% of your deal flow.
Um, so the fact that you're doing this part-time is like amazing.
There was actually a moment a few weeks ago where browser company, Ellis's former employer, sold to Atlassian and >> congrats.
You said before, you can't start recording, but congrats again. >> Yeah, congrats Ellis.
And then, uh, OpenAI bought Statsig as well.
Um, and you were like a seed investor in both.
And I was seeing jokes on X of like, man, finally that poor Dylan guy, finally he like catches a break.
Um, and I'm hearing about you in interesting AI startups all the time.
Like I'll frequently meet with a founder and I'll be like, who did your your seed?
And it was like either Dylan or Sam Alman.
Um, and you're actually you led the A for one of our sponsors of the show, Warp.
Uh, really awesome AI coding >> uh platform.
And um, obviously you are running Figma.
that's your full-time job.
But to me that suggests you are very um keen to see around the corner and see what's coming at the early stage.
And I imagine as the founder of a now public company that gives you kind of a unique edge of where especially AI is headed and so I'm curious like when you're doing this investing I imagine it actually um acrru to Figma as well in terms of like your ability to see ahead.
So I'm curious like how does that Yeah.
How does that impact how you run Figma, the bets you make?
Um, and is that a thing that's just kind of naturally happened or was that a strategy? >> Oh, no.
I mean, it's a natural result of I think my curiosity and uh and just the amazing friends I've gotten to meet along the way.
Um, as well as folks I' I'm getting to meet now.
But yeah, I think that um I think there's two categories that help value acrew to Figma.
One is not looking ahead but uh almost reminding me of lessons that have already been learned.
Um, you know, there's a lot of times where I'm talking with a company and I'm giving advice and uh I'm reminded of a lesson that we've already learned at Figma and then something clicks and I'm like, wait a second, why am I not applying this to this problem that we have today?
Uh, you know, so it's kind of wild.
of wild. uh but whether it's that or it's like literally learning from you know live case studies that are going on in companies that are very different from Figma uh those are very helpful for me and then I think that the category of
uh for Figma how to think about around corners and understand what's happening I mean there are patterns to the challenges that AI companies have and um the ways that they are are pushing forward and uh in trying to solve problems that are are hard for everyone. And I think that definitely
And I think that definitely um as I talk with founders that's helpful to understand but also uh just in general you know I just think about AI right now and I think about design and it's so early like we're all kind of hyping it up like this is you know it's the future of everything and um that's not to say it's not but I think if you think about the future of interfaces you think about
what interfaces will look like um and what the distribution of activity will be between humans and agents and how agents will uh show up in interfaces like I I'm a big believer that it'll be more of the model where you're um working alongside agents collaboratively uh and you're understanding what they're doing because the trust is not there around uh with the current models at least and I think even models that are in the
future they're going to execute sort of your desire perfectly and also humans for better or for worse we hold AI to a higher standard than we do other humans and so you actually really want to see and audit what an agent's doing and I think that whether it's you know the uh sort of like how do I understand what this agent did uh behind the scenes or it's watching agent real time work or
it's you know you had in your last episode Marcon uh talking about the new glasses and the neural band had a chance to see those before launch a few times and I mean just the design challenges these new services have are so exciting uh and I think it's it unlocks like so much creativity um and possibility and I have a lot of respect for that team for taking that huge bet and executing against it for so many years. Um, but
Um, but then you go to auto sector and the way that we're going to see innovation there because everyone's trying to push forward on digital and how that shows up in auto.
Um, it it's all to me just extremely exciting about what the role of a designer is and how you create context and systems across all these different environments uh that are consistent and are understandable to a user.
I think we're almost out of time.
We have to deliver you back to your company.
But, uh, a couple final questions.
One very short and stupid, one more thoughtful.
First one, I'm big believer that you got to treat yourself a little bit, you know, to mark a milestone when you get a win.
Did you treat yourself after the IPO at all? What color is the Lambo? What can you tell us?
What did you get yourself?
>> Uh, a good night's sleep >> or just some fro yo. >> Good night's sleep. >> Good. >> Fair. That's fair enough. >> Last question.
Um, everybody and their mom now wants a line as good as design is everyone's business, which you did for the IPO.
So, thanks so much for that.
Uh, how how did you all come up with that?
Where did that come from?
I I mean, I think it's really been our core message all along, you know, whether it's idea to reality, make design accessible to all.
accessible to all. um this idea that we can lower the floor, raise the ceiling like these are ideas around how do you get more people in the design process and how do you also elevate the role of design and I think that in this world where design is the differential how you
win or lose like design is everyone's business and I also was really honored with the IPO I think this is the thing that stood out the most to me this opportunity and privilege to I don't want to say represent but to show up as part of the design community and have a moment where design was going public. I mean I I think back to the start of
I mean I I think back to the start of Figma where you know we're looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistics data and so there was like 250k designers and the conversation design community was like does design have a seat at the table?
How do we get a design a seat at the table?
It's like, okay, I think we're we're at a place now where not universally, but in a lot of places, design has that seat, and we need to elevate the voice of design more.
We need to show companies how they can win or lose with design because if they don't lean in, they will lose.
And so, if you're working at a company as a designer, like your job is to speak up.
And if you're working at a company that doesn't value design, either find another company or figure out how to make that change.
But uh to be there and to, you know, be able to advocate for design, that was really meaningful to me.
>> I know Ellis said that was the last question.
This is actually the last question. Your >> I see how it is.
Alice, >> your your Twitter handle, we we meant to ask this. What does zoink mean?
Is that is that how you say it? Zoink. >> Zoink. >> What does that mean?
How did you come up with that?
Uh so I tried to uh start um a uh or create a product in university.
It's kind of like uh I'd say Discordy somewhat, but not like with a video game aspect.
Some blend between Discord or Slack.
It probably didn't have like clear enough product point of view.
And uh that was the name for that product.
And then that didn't really go anywhere.
Uh, and so then I just co-opted it and that became my Twitter handle. >> Zoink. Follow Zoink. >> Z K.
Thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you.
>> Thank you for joining us. This was so much fun.
>> My first time hanging with Zoink.
One of the only Twitter handles that truly competes with mine and there aren't many.
>> You can find all my other work at sources. news and Ellis.
People find you on Twitter, right? Hamburger.
You can find me at hamburger and atme meaning.
co company though my email is on there only send highquality pitches please.
I'm back in media but I don't want an overwhelmed inbox. Thank you.
A reminder that we are a new show so please follow, like subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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Uh, and if you like this, please just share it with a friend or a colleague and uh, let them know about Access and what we're doing.
Uh, we're excited to keep building this with uh, with everyone.
>> Access is produced in partnership with the Vox Media Podcast Network.
We will see you next week. Bye.
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