the thing that i have failed at most i just haven't set clear boundaries because i've been too scared to i've always wanted to like give everybody everything that i can i'm gonna give you my heart i'm gonna give you my time my energy all my words because i haven't felt deserving of holding much of that back for myself setting boundaries now is definitely something that i know is going to help me have healthy relationships full stop [Music]
hey everyone welcome back to on purpose the number one health podcast in the world thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen learn and grow now you know that it's my priority to try and sit down with people that i
think are going to expand your mind give you incredible tools for thought and help you navigate the challenges that come in your lives and today is no different i'm so excited because today's guest is none other than fern cotton
a tv and radio presenter and author her most recent book speak your truth was published in january 2021 and i can't wait for you to hear about it make sure that you click the link and order it as soon as you finish listening she's well known for presenting on radio one and on the bbc and the extra factor she also is the host of her own podcast that i got to be our guest on last year happy place which uh was just such a joy and fun i'm
so glad to be engaging with you again and being present with you again and i had such a good time on your podcast that i had to have you back on and i'm so excited because today i get to ask questions and you get to answer them so
thank you for doing this well thank you jay it's an absolute honor and um yes i will try and relax and let go and not interview you which is my comfort zone it's very awkward and weird for me to be interviewed so i'm just gonna like
shake it off let go and you can do your thing well someone smart once said speak your truth so i will uh i will remind you of that today to to speak yours uh and and not not make me speak mine but i actually want to start somewhere
uh a bit bit playful but i've been loving your running selfie videos i i think they're genius and they're brilliant and i've not seen many people do that before because it's so vulnerable it's so awkward it's so difficult
and it's it's a skill it's an actual skill and i wanted to start there just by asking you you know what what inspired you to do that because it's it's such a different way of connecting with people we usually usually you have people finishing their
workout and be like just done my workout or people or you see people ready for their workout in their best athleisure but you're doing it while running tell us well first of all i'm not that person who wears like
a slick gym kit and looks amazing working out i tend to wear the t-shirt that i've worn the night before in bed and whatever leggings are clean and a bra that will support what's needed and i'm out the door and i think the main purpose
of um doing those little videos on instagram is to get people to get outside because i know if i wake up and i feel a bit grumpy and i really can't be bothered if i see somebody online who's just been for a run and they look like they're
properly pumped and feeling good and euphoric i'm like i've got i've got to go i've got no choice i have to get out the door so i think it's just to remind people that we've got agency over what we choose to do each day and getting
outside is a really good idea if you can do it yeah i think that's a great reminder i love that and it simplifies it because i think when you do see this perfect version of going outdoors or the perfect park or the perfect view it
becomes really difficult because most of us don't look that i just got back from playing tennis which is my workout every day and i did not look like this when i finished playing all when i went out and actually i was facetiming with my
friend in london and i was wearing a hat because it was cold in l.a this morning and he was looking at me he's like why are you wearing a hat like why do you look like that right now and i was just i was just like it's so cold right now
in l.a in the mornings at least and so no i love that i think that's a great reminder one of the things i notice about you whenever i see you is the same when you interviewed me and even today you're always so colorful everything you do is so colorful from your clothes to your headphones to your phone to your microphone to the cover of your beautiful new book to even even the happy place i i think the all the graphics and everything is just
so beautiful when did color become important to you has it always been important to you and tell us about that journey with color because i feel like when you're on tv in the beginning you wear muted colors or you may have a stylist but for you you've you've just embodied you just embrace and embody color all the time yeah i love color it's always been really important i think it probably goes back on a really subconscious level to growing up
my dad has always been a sign writer since you know he was a teenager himself so we always grew up with a lot of paint and color in in that respect and i i'm a massive fan of painting myself so i've always been really into
getting colour on canvas and drawing and it just makes you feel good and i'm not one of those people that is desperate to look chic or to look perfect or to look really like sophisticated i'm not sophisticated i like to express myself and i like to
feel joy and i like to push the boundaries in that way so yeah i think i try and inject color like in my home all the walls are painted in various colors and i it just makes me feel really good and just sort of elevated i think when when we're feeling really low and down and we want to blend in we want to wear dark colors and we want to not be seen so i try and push myself to get myself out there and you know wear things that are going to make me
feel alive and vibrant so yeah i'm much more color than i am chic that is for sure i love that i love that and no i i think it's a beautiful form of self-expression and and it's nice that you've allowed yourself to just give yourself the permission to
to wear whatever color you want to put whatever color you want on the background and and you do feel so much better from it and i think it applies to something that i think you embody quite uniquely and in your introductions
titled this you know how getting quiet made me louder and when you when i read that and i read your introduction a new book i was i was thinking about that statement i was thinking about how people view wellness meditation well-being
positivity often it's viewed quite sober and still and sometimes it can be seen as quite clinical and quite boring in one sense it's like oh you've got to be very still and silent and quiet but you embody it with this paradox and i'm i'm
a huge fan of paradoxes i love when two things can meet and people often ask me they're like jay like you were a monk but now you're in media how does that work and i'm like that's what i love about life that you can you can be two things and you don't have to you don't have to choose and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive they're not opposites but they can and and i feel you do that too like on one end you're speaking about
calm and quiet those are titles of your books and now it's about speaking your truth which is all about loud and being out there and speaking up tell us about how you found sense or made sense of having those two seemingly opposite ideas i think it's
just very much you know who i am as a person i you know traditionally i come from a broadcasting background so i think i always like to also challenge how people view you i don't want to be put in this car you know and it happens
to people in the public eye a lot that once you're defined as one thing you know you can't change you can't move from from that career to that career and none of this was on purpose you know i didn't think oh i'm gonna you know sort of move away from broadcasting and start talking about mental health or whatever it was all very sort of accidental and incremental to get to where i am today but i think it all does work like life is a big mess
you know life isn't linear life isn't perfect life is never one thing it's it's everything life is everything and it's color and it's monochrome and it's loud and it's quiet it's absolutely everything and i i kind of
have to find that balance because if i especially again you know in the uk being in the public eye if i'm putting myself out there again and again and again and also then you are open to whatever feedback you get i have to find the balance with that and
find the quiet bit and find the still bit and i don't think there's still bit it i used to probably view it as quite boring and like you've said perhaps clinical or sort of stagnant but i really don't now i see that bit as exciting because i get to process all the craziness that's just happened or all the thoughts that have been building up or all the emotion that i'm really not enjoying and sit with it and just let it you know permeate and b
and i just get to sort of look at that so i've only really found that balance in the last probably five or six years but i really enjoy just oscillating between the two and going with it so yeah i don't want life to be one thing that would be
terribly boring i think it life is everything and it should be and i hopefully present it in that way with the work that i do yeah no you do definitely and i think watching someone's so i i used to watch you as a kid right
and and i mean when i say a kid you were a kid probably on tv i was yeah because i think we are we're in the same generation so i was watching you on tv when i was growing up in england in london and when i'm watching you and now i see the journey you're on and now we're in the same space and we care about the same things and we value a lot of the same things and and i love seeing that journey and you're what you said there was so true
that sometimes if you're in the public eye and what i find for people is that even if you're not in the public eye your family is your public eye or your community is your public eye or your university or your school is yours for
everyone everyone has a public eye even if they're not a public figure and so often we feel scared or uncertain to shift who we are because people know us as one thing tell us about where you found the courage or how was stillness
instrumental in those transitions because you've had massive transitions in the public public eye with family members with people in your life what was going through your mind in those transitions what were those points of courage that kind of
you had to take which i think a lot of people will empathize with and and feel that they're in that position well i'd love to say that i felt totally confident making any big decision but that is so not the case i think you know
there although it was all very incremental there was of course a moment where i made an active decision to leave the main broadcasting job i had at the time which was on bbc radio one i had a daily show where i'd get to interview you know the most amazing musicians every week whether it's like eminem the foo fighters alicia keys you know it was just constant amazingness and and i loved every minute but i just knew where i was in my life and i
you know i was having kids at the time and i just needed change i didn't even know what changed i just thought i need some i need to shake it up i want a new chapter and i had to jump into the void and i didn't have anything
to necessarily fall back on i was lucky i had a home and i had a little bit of savings that could kind of see out whatever this unknown period of time was going to be but there was definitely no safety net there isn't in my job whatsoever you know you can be
yesterday's news very very quickly so it was terrifying and i had a lot of people going to me why are you leaving radio you're absolutely mad it's the best job in the world how could you you know why would you do that it's just a crazy decision
and every time i had to go back to the feeling back to the feeling of i know i need change back to there's an itch and i can't ignore it anymore i need change but it was terrifying like every time someone said to me why are you doing
this i had to really step back and go why why am i doing this and it always went back to that feeling of i can't even articulate what it was i just need change and it was scary for ages you know i lost sleep over it for months thinking have i made the right choice have i ruined everything but i i couldn't ignore that feeling of just wanting something a bit different so it was it was as simple as that there was no you know huge confidence or
moment where i was like i know that i'm headed in the right direction it was just jumping into the void and i'm hoping for the best i love that i love that honesty it's i i think you're spot on i don't think anyone's
ever fully confident about a decision and and i think you're so right that when you're walking through that decision you're holding on so tight to that feeling of i don't know what it is but i know i need to change i think that's such a real
i can relate to that so you can't ignore it you can't yeah you can't you can't and and have you ever found that when you kind of get to the other side where you've made the transition people have now somewhat accepted who you've now evolved
into and now all of a sudden there's a pressure especially with what you do now there's a pressure to always be positive or a pressure to always say the right thing or come across a certain way do you find that
you also come up against that sometimes where there's a where now you get pressure for your new identity almost yeah but i think the the sort of pressure to be purely positive i had really in my sort of traditional broadcasting career because
i couldn't have gone on tv on or on radio one and said oh god i feel absolutely crap today you know that was there wasn't space for that whereas now i think the only pressure i i feel is to be completely authentic
and completely real and that that probably took a little bit of confidence to go do i want to do that can i do that you know how vulnerable will i feel if i do that but i've actually i feel more comfortable doing that than i did
pretending everything was brilliant i think i used to just feel like under so much pressure every day to have you know the funny quip the right thing to say to a band or or whatever it might be whereas now i think if i'm feeling awful if i've had
insomnia the night before if i've had a panic attack i now have an audience who are kind of willing to listen to that and then to get into a discussion about it so if anything it's like lessen the pressure and i feel way more comfortable like talking to you now i think before i would have had to be like oh my god what would presenter fern say and can i be funny in this bit now i'm just like i'm a mom i've just been out on a walk with my kids
i've just squeezed in a little instagram live this room that i'm in is a bloody tip there's just stuff everywhere and i'm knackered but i'm really happy and i'm presenting myself to you as i am whereas i just i couldn't do it
before and i've had years of conditioning from like the age of 15 up to sort of probably my early 30s and now as i sort of hurtled towards 40 this year i'm pretty comfy being me and that feels really nice i love that i also want to
add just for everyone who's listening right now that we're doing this in fern's evening because she's been kind enough around doing it in my morning in l.a so she's in london or in england and and it's it's 6 26 there or
something like that right p.m and so i want to say a big thank you to fern and a big thank you i want to say thank you to you because right now you've given me the best excuse to miss the most hectic awful bit for any parent which is bath and bedtime
i'm like i'm out of it i am up here chilling i might even pretend when we finish that we're still going so i don't have to go downstairs so thank you i love that i'm not a parent yet so i guess i'll find out but
tell me tell me where you draw that line between and i'm really intrigued to get into this with you because i think i think i i i relate to what you're saying and and i you know listen to your podcast and i have read your book and so i i feel like i
have a good understanding of your thoughts but where do you draw the line between being fully authentic and accepting who you are and showing that and then finding action and growth and movement in a direction because i
feel like that's something you do quite well where you're okay with except like you just said and you gave a beautiful description of your room and everything at the same time you're someone who wants to grow and improve and and so but how do you
draw that balance in line for even the people that listen to you so that it's it's more because it's more when i hear you and i read your work it's it's not just about venting or expressing it's more than that tell me about that walk me through that
i can sum it up so clearly because i feel in every bone i am like the driving force behind all of it is curiosity i am so unbelievably curious about all of it and i think you know now i'm at the point in life that i'm at and having had
the life experiences that i've had and the big lows and the big highs i'm so curious to learn and i'm so curious to hear about other people's lives like that that's the foundation of the podcast i want to know like what drives people i want to know what gave them the confidence the courage to make big decisions i want to know how they got out of like dark black holes that they felt they couldn't get out of i'm so curious because like you just
said i want to move forward i want to grow i want to expand i don't want that to ever end i want that to be just perpetual like an omnipresent willingness to learn and and move forward but with everybody else i don't want to be like here i am i'm
telling everybody what i know i'm with my audience doing it because you know i could have had a panic attack the night before about something but then the next day be interviewing some amazing prolific teacher or speaker
and i want to get as much as i can out of that for me so i can help myself and also for my listeners because especially at the moment everyone is struggling if it might not look like it because we'll go on instagram and everyone looks like they're having a wicked time but everyone is struggling in some way it's all varying levels obviously and in varying ways but everyone's got struggles going on so i wanna i'm not gonna sit there in those
struggles i'm gonna listen to these i'm like how lucky am i that i get to interview like deepak chopra or elizabeth gilbert like how lucky that i get to sit and do that so i'm gonna get everything i can out of it because i'm
curious and i think when we're curious we can't get bored we can't get complacent and we'll always always be willing to learn i love that and i think when you when you allow yourself to get curious about pain or challenges or pressure
as opposed to getting judgmental about it or getting self self sabotaging or judgmental about how you feel about how you feel right now you allow yourself the opportunity to go okay well what can i learn from this or
what can i learn from this person when when was it that you felt you stopped speaking up like when was it in your life where you realized you were like i've stopped speaking up i've stopped expressing myself i think for for all of us there's
you know definitely this just you know it happens all over the world this uh very normal social conditioning that we all go through either from our parents teachers just from being out of your own home out amongst strangers that you act a
certain way you know like my kids are now five and one of them's about to turn eight and you know they're pretty wild still as they should be you know if they're unhappy about something they will kick off in the middle of the street i
don't care there's people watching or that it's embarrassing or whatever they'll just go for it and you know over time we all get that sort of social conditioning that we have to act a certain way we shouldn't show certain emotions etc
you know some of that's going to serve us well because we're going to be able to forge great friendships get jobs etcetera but we all take it way too far and i think for a lot of people depending also on the type of person you
are and the dynamics that you find yourself in you might become highly responsible for everybody around you so feel like you've got to always be pleasing everybody and you shut down your own needs and and you know the possibility of delegation etc so i think a lot of us start saying yes when really we mean no and for me that probably started at quite a young age because i started in tv at 15 and i came from you know working class
background didn't know anyone in tv this was like the absolute dream come true completely unusual so i wasn't going to turn up and be like i'm not wearing that i'm not saying that you know i was like yes i'll well
anything you want i'll wear the purple cordrey flares yes yes you can make me have any makeup i don't care i'll say whatever you want because i couldn't believe i was in the job and again some of that served me well because i was able to keep going
but again i took it probably way too far and in my 20s i think there were a lot of moments either at work but also in my personal relationships where i just didn't feel the confidence to say my bit i just i didn't feel deserving of it i didn't
feel like i just felt like well who's going to listen to me what what's what's my voice got to do with it i thought that everybody else was right that everybody else knew so much more than i did that i just let everybody say and do
what they wanted and i just remained quite silent and again this has been such a new thing for me you know really within the last 12 months is when i've dug deeply into this subject matter so really it's only the last few years that i've even experimented with using my voice in a really authentic way where i believe i can help people but also i believe that i deserve to ask for help to say no and to set really healthy boundaries
like this is very fresh and new for me like this book is not coming from an expert led place this is like i am on this journey with you how do we do this so hopefully the book comes across in a way that's encouraging but also
like i am struggling i am with you on this one because it's really hard it doesn't feel anything else but really genuinely you're coming from that place of like guys i'm trying to figure this out right now but at the same time i think you said
three really incredible things there you talked about saying no uh setting boundaries like and there's one more but but those two first of all saying no and setting boundaries as being such important simple steps to speaking
up because i think even when we think about speaking up we think what does that really mean yeah and and there you've kind of defined just very simple steps that someone can start with tell us about saying no because i think that was a big
one for me i've that was a big one for me for this year actually for me for 2021 where i've been unfortunately had to email back a few people at the beginning of this year just saying sorry i'm just trying to learn to say no and i just
can't do this you know and it's it's so awkward because you want to please everyone and you want everyone to be happy and you want to make people happy and tell us about saying no in your journey of understanding where and when to use that
one yeah well yeah first of all it's you know it's absolutely right that i don't think speaking your truth is just like i'm going to say whatever i want to anyone because that's problematic and we'll get onto that later but i think
saying no is a really good way of practicing this because like you say you want to keep everybody happy and sweet and you also want to be making the right decisions so that you're meeting interesting people engaging with interesting people
etcetera but you know when it becomes detrimental there has to be healthy boundaries and also like one of the easiest ways to test whether you really meant no we've all done this someone says not this year because we're
not able to go anywhere but you know can do you want to come to this party now i don't really like parties that again has been something that i've found the confidence to say out loud more recently i hate them i just don't like parties i
sometimes like my own parties which is quite selfish but i'm not a massive fan of going to like unless it's someone that i really know well i'm gonna know everyone there then that's super fun someone invites you to a party and you
say yes because you think how can i not go to the party i've gotta go to the blooming party then the day before the party you're literally like dreading the party you can't even think of how you're gonna leave the house it's
gonna be dark you're gonna be knackered how am i gonna leave the house to go to this party and then on the day you make up some awful excuse that you know you've your kids got a runny nose and there's a work thing that you didn't
do and and then you're lying and then you're lying and then you don't go to the party and then you spend all night at home going i feel so guilty about going to the party it's so awful that i lied i didn't go to the party
if you just said no two three weeks before none of that would have happened but not just like no no with thank you so much for inviting me i'm not really in the headspace right now where i'm i want to be out with lots of people
but i would love to take you to for a coffee or whatever at another time just so me and you can celebrate your whatever it is that's happening just be honest because people like that people like honesty rather than you making up a lie
down the line so that's a really obvious example but we have all done that and you can apply that to work family commitments things you said you'll do your favors whatever if it's not really what you want to do that's all right i don't think you're a
bad person i think i'm a bad person for saying no we can't do everything it's impossible it's it's a good example actually because i think when you shared it it just shows you how the simple act of saying no in a nice
honest way saves you days of headache yes and and and that's literally what happens when we don't speak our truth or we aren't honest with ourselves is that you end up creating so much more headache and and pain for yourself because now you're thinking about this very simple decision for for way too long and of course it gets more complex with more complicated things but but it's still the essence is still there that you can save yourself
time energy effort relationships yeah all of that all of that can be saved when when you say no you also spoke about setting boundaries tell us a bit about some of the boundaries you think you've set maybe in the last 12 months
that have been really healthy boundaries oh this one i find so difficult and i've really learned from amaze some amazing people like this there's this wonderful um speaker and writer that i know called donna lancaster who is like
so big on boundaries and i have learned so much from talking to her because it's probably been the thing that i have failed at most i'd say over the years as an adult that i just haven't set clear boundaries because i've been too scared to because i haven't had the confidence i haven't felt deserving and i've always wanted to like give everybody everything that i can i'm gonna give you my heart i'm gonna give you my time my energy all my words
because i haven't felt deserving of holding much of that back for myself so that goes into a whole other thing of like self-worth and you know that can derive from all sorts of life experience of course but setting boundaries now is definitely
something that i know is going to help me have healthy relationships full stop it's not gonna annoy people it's not gonna make me ostracised from society it's gonna create really healthy relationships even with people
that i find tricky or people that find me tricky where there's like that discord is gonna just help in every way so i think what i've tried to do recently is be really honest about what i can offer people because i'm a mum of four kids i have two
teenage step kids and two younger kids and i'm a wife and i'm a i'm a daughter i'm a sister i'm a friend i am also a very passionate worker and i love what i do so how can i spread myself across all of that and stay sane and that
comes down to just being honest with people i i really i can't give you any more than i'm giving you right now i love you but i can't give you any more and i think again when you're honest with people they might at first be like ouch oh okay
you're not giving me what you used to give me all the time but one i think that's just the initial bit of setting boundaries then there is a new normal after that so this is something i am very gradually getting better at yeah
because it feels like there's so much at stake right it feels like there's so much to lose when you start setting boundaries because your relationship with this person has been built on certain expectations and now you're taking away
some of those expectations you feel like you could lose this relationship and that could apply to work that could apply to a partner a best friend a parent you know i think a lot of people go through this with their parents where
they have a very specific relationship with how their parent is involved in their life and now when they have a new person or a new partner or a child it it starts to change that relationship and it feels scared so
it's almost like a lot of this comes back down to being so not sure because like we've we already touched on that you're never sure about the decision you're making but you need to be sure that this isn't working almost like it's almost like you
may not be sure about what is gonna work but you're sure that this doesn't work yeah like we all know the definition of madness you know like doing the same thing on repeat but expecting a different outcome you know that's just that is mad and we've all again we've all done it you know i've moaned and complained about things or people over the years and they want so much for me and blah blah but i had never changed my side of the
story like we need to be responsible for what we're putting out there and you know it is very complex like you've just said when it comes to you know parents or very close relatives because they might have years and years
of being used to you being one way and as soon as you change that and you might decide quite quickly that you need to make changes and implement them quite quickly that might not go down well instantly but it's still going to be better than what was
happening before which was just banging your head against the wall resenting people you know maybe bitching about them behind their backs whatever it might be rather than being honest creating a healthy boundary that allows them to understand
what you can do and give and receive and also give them the opportunity to do the same you know it hasn't got to be a one-sided thing of you just spouting out about what you need and want this can very much be like a two-way street of
okay i can't give you any more than i am what what do you think you need from me and you know you just use the word expectations which i think is is so you know so common that we have expectations of people because they've got you know the name of this role in life whether they're uh it could be mother or it could be sister or friend and sometimes we need to look at what expectations we're putting on other people as well as ourselves you know and
and is it fair to have expectations of other people and what are the varying degrees of that it's all it's all bespoke to what's going on in your life i can't tell anybody out there how they should be living their lives but we'll know
we'll know deep down what the you know what responsibilities we hold and if they're the right ones or not and i have i guess um over the years generally been someone that takes on a lot of people's responsibilities that aren't mine
and i've thought that they were and i've actually recently gone oh god none of that stuff's mine i don't need to carry that that's not mine i'm gonna just slowly hand that back and set a new boundary but again as i said this is like new stuff
for me i'm learning it and i'm excited by it so i'm talking about it so passionately but it is it's an everyday commitment and it's hard yeah i love that we almost have a to-do list for other people so it's like
that person's happiness that person's stillness that person's you know and it's and and it's nice because it means we care and we want to help out but the problem is when you see it as yours and and that's the challenge right it's
it's wonderful to be of service it's wonderful to help people you love and care about but when you start seeing that their happiness is your responsibility i think jay you know once you've set clear boundaries and you've reserved
enough energy or whatever it is for you you can be more of service to people because you're all right if you're strung out doing everything for everyone and make sure everyone else is happy you are gonna feel horrendous and have
nothing to give so i think it actually allows you to be more of service to others because you're taking care of you're taking responsibility for yourself your actions you're not blaming everyone but equally you're setting clear boundaries you've
got more to give so i think it leads back to service which you know you're the expert on your you're so wonderful when you talk about service i think you have to come from that place of i'm all right therefore i can be of service ultimately it comes down to what you said so beautifully is that you should never see it as yours that's the issue i feel like as soon as you start seeing it as it's all yours and all for you to do and
if it doesn't work then it's all your fault and that's that's where it starts getting really messy because it wasn't yours to begin with yeah and i think that that's you know that's where so many of us get stuck and it's tricky because you know as a as
a parent that one is so complicated because these little people you know especially when they're very young you are responsible for most of their life but i think there is still this sweet spot of like say they are
having a huge tantrum or seemingly unhappy about something you can go into complete like self-blame oh my god am i parenting right it must all be my full blah blah and i think you know you do still have to have that slight moment where you step back and go they're little people they are their own people you know they're i can't be responsible for that you know having other emotions other than happiness is fine and i can let them do that like if
they're going to be super unhappy about this i'm going to let them do that right now you know and it's there is still a little sweet spot i think where you can do it but it it is tricky and i think especially with teenagers right now they're having
a really tough time not necessarily my step kids but i mean you know in general teenagers across the globe are facing a lot of uncertainty you know the future is very unknown and that for parents is really really
difficult because you want them to feel okay and at the moment i don't know how any of us are meant to do that so so it is complex it's not an easy thing to do but we have to be able to let go to some extent because it is out of our
control yeah no for sure lockdowns lockdown as you were saying and we were talking about as you've been touching on it's been a really tough time for everyone in in every way and you know different things for different people across the world
but but for you it's also been a time of being really creative and and you've felt this really creative spark both personally and professionally tell us about why you think this time was so powerful for that because i think
for a lot of people it hasn't been that or they want to shift to that and they haven't quite got there how was it such a creative time for you yeah i i know exactly why and it it's really interesting i think you know i've i've not
been in my adult life someone that is particularly good at like going on holiday or vacation you know i'm not i'm not the sort of person that's like oh i'm just going to relax for a week or two weeks when i'm in that sort of space and you know the pandemic has been a much less glamorous version of that where we're not going on holiday but we we we're forced to stop we can't do anything when i'm forced to stop everything comes to the surface
because i'm so busy normally and i keep really busy and i'm probably quite hyperactive as a human when i'm forced to stop everything comes up and i might have a period where i'm like so edgy and like physically tense like oh
my god i could just like pull my hair out i don't know what to do with this energy like i can't stop how can i stop and then that starts to turn into okay why are my feet what emotions are there why am i feeling like this what does it route back to
and then i'm just buzzing with ideas and thoughts and things because it's all floated up all the stuff that's normally like below at the moment homeschooling cooking for the kids making sure the house isn't a complete
and utter tear etc everything's just sort of rumbling down here but as soon as we have to properly stop like the initial lockdown there was nothing to do there was no work nobody worked out how to do this yet you know like podcast on zoom
this was all like in the future so i was just struck with like oh my god and it coincided with me having this you know diagnosis of a huge cyst on my vocal cords that then again you know there was no distraction from that because there was
nothing to do so i was like why is it there i need to explore this so i think in moments where i'm forced to stop light going on holiday light being in your first lockdown of a pandemic i'm wanting to organize it all and sort
it and then collate all of that and do something with it so i think i'm quite lucky in the fact that that's how my brain works but it's obviously really annoying when i do have the chance to relax because i sort of don't know how to do it i'm kind of
awful at going on holiday because i just don't know how to stop because i just there's so much stuff in my head and feelings coming up so there's good and bad to thinking like that yeah yeah i that's that's definitely
there i think a lot of people feel that way that you know you go on vacation but you're thinking about work or you're at work and you're thinking about the vacation and that whole dichotomy of always just feeling full but but in a difficult
way but at the same time sometimes it's that fullness that creates something really special and beautiful and so i think i think right now if people are struggling to be creative what kind of advice or tips would you
give them if people were feeling i do want to be more creative i do want to use this time i've got i've got used to this now like i've got i've got used to the fact that this is life now and this is normal because in the
beginning i mean you know in the first month no one knew what was happening and where it was going but now people may be thinking i want to be more creative i want to be more productive and effective where would you recommend they start i mean i can only
really talk from my own personal experience of how i do it and i think any negative thing that happens to me or any negative emotion that comes up or anything i feel stuck in or edgy with my first thought is oh how can i how can i use this you know what can i do with this rather than oh this is awful i hate this i'm trapped in it i go what can i do with this and i think if you work in a creative industry or your hobbies are creative whether it is
painting or music or writing or poetry you can channel all of that like some of the best songwriters who are either friends with the ones that we all just know and love you see them directly channel their most horrific pain into something so utterly beautiful i'm not doing it on that level but i am certainly using it to go right i need to do an instagram live about this i need to do an instagram live about panic or anxiety or i need to
you know write a piece about the feeling of dread like i i need to get it out and i want to then engage with other people to hear what they think what their experience is so it's not just this kind of internalized thing that i'm going
through i want to feel outside of that or what are you what's everyone else thinking about that do you feel this you know i'm again it goes back to that curiosity so i think if you are a creative well everyone's a creative
person there's no like creative type of everyone's creative on a level it's just all manifests in a varying manner i think you need to not dis disregard all the negative circumstantial things that happen to you feelings that you have things that you're witnessing that you feel is unfair channel that into creation we've all got the ability to do it it might not be fine art or writing a beautiful piece of music it might be gardening it might be
making something out of cardboard boxes with your kids but just get like channel it out i think when we get stuck in all that negativity that's where we get writer's block or can't paint or whatever but use all that dark stuff and
make it into something gorgeous yeah that's such a that's such a great point i think that you've brought up because it's almost like everything in our life is cyclical and and everything's going around in a cycle and the challenge is that when
we're feeling something it's just getting stuck and it's just getting stored somewhere and blocked somewhere and and often we think it's not shareable because it's not beautiful or it's not but but that's your point that you can
actually be the person to transform that feeling into something shareable into something beautiful into something not perfect we're not saying to turn it into perfect saying turning it into something that makes you feel like you've had an
opportunity i think the example of a musician is such a great one i think that's such a brilliant one because all the music we listen to are songs usually about that person being in pain of some some sort and now it's coming out in this way and we love that and we need to do that for ourselves i think that is such a great great way of looking at emotion and i hope everyone who's listening or watching today you find a way to notice the pattern of
what you feel regularly and find a creative outlet for that and i i mean i could give a personal example it's small but it was huge for me and it may sound really basic but it was so big for me i i really don't enjoy working out i never have i really enjoy sport i don't enjoy working out never enjoyed the gym don't enjoy personal trainers don't enjoy workout classes like that's just not me but i love sport and so when i used to live in england i
used to play football with my mates twice a week and it was amazing and then when i moved to la i couldn't really find a group of that many 22 people every week to play football and so i started going to the gym to keep fit
and healthy and all the rest of it and then obviously during lockdown that ended and and i was really finding that working out had become such a pain point in my life it was almost like i felt that kind of block and to exercising and when i'd go on a
hike it was nice but i didn't feel i was really exercising and recently i started playing tennis and what i love about it is that i start my mornings feeling like a kid because it's playful it's competitive i'm not great at it like i'm i'm
okay but it's playful and i feel like now when i start my day after having done that i feel so happy and playful and fun and like a kid and i'm like i'm ready for the day as opposed to before i was working out and starting my
day feeling stressed that i hadn't worked out enough pressured that i hadn't done it right and then feeling tired from the workout not excited and i'm just it's so interesting how these really simple things when we're not expressing that like i need to feel like i'm playing and competing in a fun way uh and and when i'm not doing that i don't i don't get to express that if that makes sense yeah because i tell you what's sprung to mind there
is you know this weird modern-day concept probably that all has been um generated from how we use social media that so often we're trying to like force our creation to this thing that as you said earlier ends up being this perfect image or this perfect moment or this perfect piece or whatever it is so we're kind of like forcing our creation into this square whereas let it be imperfect like perfect so uh like what is perfect like perfect is just
it's subjective anyway but it's become something that perhaps is um more of a well it's certainly an algorithm now you know like oh this has got so many likes so this must be perfect and we're all trying to create something that
is the perfect algorithm and it's like be messy be creative be playful be you know let that pain all the good stuff come out and manifest and create something that is just you so you know i know now if i put a picture on instagram of me looking dog rough you
know saying that i didn't sleep last night that's me showing you what is really happening and i'm creating a moment for you where you can understand how i'm feeling if someone wants to have a go at me or they don't think it's the perfect image
i don't care like it's so not the point for me anymore because i just think it's we can look for perfect everywhere we can go on pinterest we can follow certain influencers on instagram we can find perfect so easy it's all
over the shop is it meaningful is it is it deep is it nourishing i don't think so but you know look at all people that i think eye class is like my heroes like david bowie was he this shiny perfect person no he was this kind of iconic bizarre
creature who had you know two different colored eyes and outfits that were totally not the norm and he just broke every boundary he wasn't looking for perfect he was looking to express and create and i think we've all
become so focused on creating perfection rather than just what feels good and like you said with tennis what's playful and fun exactly exactly and and yeah i can agree with you more i think i think uh you're right it's perfection's subjective it's not real we all don't know what it is it's elusive it's it's ever changing its definition when you look at you know i've read articles and studies on like what uh the perfect body shape for a man
and women that's been created by media and how it's changed the media cycle and you just see how like a different in different decades different things were seen as perfect and it's all just created and manipulated by
what we see and what we're exposed to and so there is no such thing as perfect uh but it there is just allowing yourself to feel but what you're saying what i think the distinction that i want everyone to get who's listening and watching is
it's not just about feeling your pain it is about expressing it sharing it creating from it because i think there's a lot of there's a lot just about feeling it which is important but then something has to happen with it after you've felt
it and i feel that's where a lot of us are missing that link you know maybe create maybe say using me using the word creating is actually being too narrow-minded because a lot of the time rather than sitting with that
pain you could choose i often if i'm feeling angry i will run i will get outside and i will run and i will listen to some like heavy music like kings of leon's first album which is all angry and ferocious and i will
run it out like i'm not necessarily creating anything but i am moving it on and i'm getting it out and i just know that if i feel one of those heavy emotions i just can't sit in it i've got to do something so if it's anger i need movement
if it's depression i need to write or i need to talk i need to connect with other people about it even though that feels nearly impossible but i've got to do that and if it's panic i probably need to paint or draw or do
something fidgety and like you know move and get it out of me you just have to work out what's right for you but like get it out get moving get it out that's a great list though that that's a really good list of and and that's exactly what i think
about like i always say when you when you feel hungry you eat when when you feel you need to be clean you take a shower like we have we have something to go with how we feel and we haven't found what we should focus on
when we feel something and what you've just drawn there for yourself which i agree you're not saying everyone needs to do it the same way but but i love the way you made that really simple it's that when i feel this i need to focus on this when i feel this
i need to focus on this and and it's almost like each and every single one of us and i know your book does this beautifully you have lots of different activities and exercises and places for people to scribble because i think it's so important to do
that to feel something and then move forward or focus on something else so i i think that's a really great piece of actionable advice that i would suggest that if everyone can say when i feel this if i feel this
then i do this and you can play with it and experiment with it and also look at what you do habitually because normally and this is what i've learned the very hard way what i used to do was oh i feel depressed i'm gonna buy some
shoes you know i've done an action but it's not been the right one so i think we've got to find things that are free because that all of the good stuff is free we've got to find things that are easily um attainable or achieved so
whether it's just like drawing with a pen on paper so it hasn't got any paints in a canvas you know just doodling like just express in a way that is like very old school and natural and free because that that will always be the thing that feels better than buying something or like you know spending hours scrolling through instagram because you feel sad that's not going to make you feel better either or sending someone a terrible text
because you want to blame someone else like i think it's about making sure that action is gonna bring you up a level from where you are not make you sink further you know what's gonna get you one rung up the ladder even if it's like anger
to you know just feeling a bit edgy that's good you know that's better than going down into like despair just i think it's about looking for the action and i i don't always do this god i will still sometimes buy a pair of shoes when i
really shouldn't be or you know you know say something to my husband that it was like not his fault and just go and blame him you know i'm still i'm a human i'll still deal that but i from the work i do and the people i talk to i definitely have a a deeper awareness of the moments where i should take a good positive step in in the right direction yeah that's brilliant thanks fern i love that so i've got two segments that we end on purpose with
every time one's called fill in the blanks and the other one's the final five so we're going to start with fill in the blanks first and so fern this is your fill in the blanks uh vulnerability allows me to share
like it allows me to share that is the gift of it one of my truths is one of my truth says i still find it really hard to speak my truth that's great that's a great one calm is found in bed with a book nice uh solitude allows me to breathe breathe
and then last fill in the bank my favorite color is green earthy grounding green interesting was not expecting that cool okay all right your final five uh what's one thing you know to be true about yourself that others might not realize that i
love love love being on my own and being quiet i don't think people would assume that because i connect constantly with people but i love being alone and i love being quiet yeah that's the same with me i i can
totally relate to every time i say that to someone they're like no that's so not true that's not true yeah yeah they're like no yeah you don't know yourself jake okay good the second one what's the biggest lesson you've learned in the
last 12 months boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries i am learning it every day it's the most important lesson set healthy boundaries with love i love that uh if there's one gift and when i say gift i don't mean a physical
gift i mean like a gift of life that you could give your kids what would it be the gift of learning to set boundaries even with me which would be so hard because i'd be like you can't set boundaries with me i'm your mum but i'm gonna have to live
that one to the end yeah that's that's probably the toughest one i guess right but it kind of comes back at us that's that's a really important thing though it's yeah i'm gonna take a slight detour before our last couple of questions in
the final five but we talk a lot about and maybe you were saying about your your friend and the expert you were speaking about with boundaries we speak a lot about setting our own boundaries but how good are we accepting other people's boundaries once we get good at setting them ourselves we probably naturally will be much more accepting of those given to us like so say my friend donna who i was talking about every text she sends me she goes like
yesterday i did this interview recently um i thought i'd send it to you if you want to read it boundaries you don't have to and you know she'll constantly allow me to set a boundary she'll ask for one and i'll go no i want to read it it's fine
but i think once you're really good at it you're almost expecting people to do it i think when we find it when we're either being a martyr which i've definitely done over the years try to like do everything for everybody
else and put myself last you know all that sort of stuff or we're just generally people pleasing when people set boundaries we think how dare you i give everything to you i do everything for you and you're setting a boundary
but that's only because i haven't set any so i think when you're setting them well you're almost expecting other people to so i think that one will hopefully come naturally with the other yeah that's a great answer i i think that's also a
great test and self-check on whether you're actually setting boundaries effectively is if you can ex if you can accept someone else's boundaries chances are you're getting better at setting them yeah and that's a good it's a good test
and a good check i like that i'm really glad we touched on that all right your final two questions if you could create a law for everyone in the world to follow what would it be you can't say set boundaries but you can
yeah yeah boundaries um you know i think i have to look at what's going on in the world at the moment and we certainly don't need any more rules that's for sure so i think it would be that we all have to just accept that we
all think differently because we're all everyone's fighting everyone's arguing everything is so divisive and at times we do need to stand up for our beliefs and join in a community and do good if it's always coming from like a benevolent place
with good intent but i think we just like the the thing i think we all need to think and that the sort of law that we all need to kind of abide to is we're we all think differently like that is that is human nature that is law that is what's going on we we all think differently you know we're not gonna always meet in the middle and that that's life we have to be accepting of that yeah it's a great great answer all right fifth and final question
what's something that you used to think was true but now you no longer do um i used to think that success was kind of like the biggest the best the shiniest the most perfect oh i really don't think that anymore at all it was the biggest
lie ever that i believed you know success is it's a feeling it's a feeling it's not a thing it's not it's not a number it's not something that's visual it's a feeling of you know i could do something that was quite small and
intimate with my writing and it just felt juicy and right and that is success and i think we all need to in the modern world really look at that you know marker of what success is to us rather than what it looks like on instagram how many
numbers there are followers money shiny cars whatever it's it's just not any of that success is a feeling and i've certainly learned that over the last probably 10 years of my career i'd say i love that thank you so much fern
everyone speak your truth is available right now make sure you go and grab a copy of the book like i said it's got loads of great activities and exercises and lists and things that you can reflect on in the book which is what i love so much about
it because it's going to allow you to go through the journey with fern and if you don't already go and subscribe to the happy place go and listen uh to minor friends episode and all our episodes with all our incredible guests
as she was mentioning i think you'll absolutely love it and fan thank you again for doing an episode of on purpose i i still can't believe we haven't met uh but i'm really really looking forward to it i'm really happy full time i'm actually really excited to attend a uh happy place festival so i'm i'm really looking forward to that when when those are back oh my god it'd be an honor to have you there but i i can't wait as well i feel like i know
you from speaking to you and following you and messaging you it's um it's so lovely to connect again and thank you so much for for letting me on your podcast today thank you so much if you want even more videos just like this one make
sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here i'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book think like a monk from think like a monkbook.com check below in the description to make sure you order today