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Michael, welcome back to Giant Ideas.
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>> Good to be here after a week.
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>> [laughter] >> We've failed on the continuity.
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We're still wearing the same clothes as last week.
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Um we had a great chat last week about >> When you're in the dungeon of Giant Ideas, right?
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>> [laughter] >> We might never let you out. You better be careful.
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Um we're going to talk this week about your new book.
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The US edition is out today, this week.
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Um it tells just an incredibly powerful, pretty shocking story about your family history and and the Holocaust.
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And also speaks very powerfully, I think, to the moment we're in today.
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But perhaps for people who've not yet read it, could you just describe the story?
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>> For the people who were swept up in the incredible horrors of um mid-20th century Europe, whether they're in Russia or Germany or um elsewhere around uh Europe, all the people that were swept up in World War II, civilians and soldiers and airmen and and uh everybody else.
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There I don't know how many people were affected, but maybe 30, 40, 50 million people.
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Every one of them has a story.
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And every one of them has a family story of some sort.
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And obviously, the story that resonates with an individual is their family story.
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I studied history a long, long time ago.
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And always felt that the way to um write about history is through through individual stories set against the fabric of the time, set against the the background, the tapestry is the grand sweep of history, but that is brought to life uh through talking about the the details and the particulars
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of how decisions made by politicians and war leaders then came to affect three or four or people or in my in the case of my book, you know, maybe half a dozen principal characters, but then a whole cast of other other people that were associated in in in this case with my family. >> And what what was the I mean, the crux
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>> And what what was the I mean, the crux of it was essentially that your your grandparents were were murdered.
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>> Well, a lot of So, the backdrop was was was quite simple.
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Um I started writing the book.
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My mother had died shortly before COVID and she lived in Wales until the last year of her life.
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And then uh my sister had cleared out the house and uh there are maybe four cartons of um papers and few photographs and things that had been uh but, you know, this was not the Churchill archives or the French archives.
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It was uh four cartons of of papers and I'd never really thought about writing a book about family, but then COVID broke out and I had a ton of time on my hands cuz I wasn't traveling, wasn't commuting, wasn't doing all the I I started riffing through the stuff and I started to write.
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And then I got deeper and deep and then there were little things that I began to discover and uh and and figure out.
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And then I started doing deeper deeper research cuz you can do so much on the internet, particularly if you follow um you know, uh the all the all the little entries at the bottom of Wikipedia entries or on ancestry.
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com where there's a obscure reference and then you begin to follow that.
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And I had a hired a couple of researchers and um, helped me because I don't really speak German or or read it or understand it.
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She helped me with uh with documents and then started being able to, you know, I never really thought about my grandparents generation or who these people were or how they became who they were and sort of seen some black and white photographs about them, but I never thought of them as real flesh and blood with brains and emotions and uh >> [sighs] >> uh uh and um so then I I I um I got utterly absorbed.
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>> Must have been quite emotional then.
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>> Uh >> Is that the right word?
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>> I I don't know because I I knew how the story ended. Yeah. It wasn't a happy end.
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Um but um there are a few things.
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I tripped across a photograph.
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My father was a had been an immigrant.
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He'd been uh sent by his parents um when he was a 14-year-old to Britain where he had got a scholarship into school, which was the only way they could get him out of Germany. >> Okay.
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>> And then in 1940 after the Germans had swept through France and the Netherlands and and Belgium and um and and Luxembourg.
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Um the British in a panic um rounded up every quote enemy alien who tended to be Italians and Germans.
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So, suddenly the restaurants in Soho closed because they're all Italian waiters and they're all rounded up irrespective of the fact that they may have spoken pretty good English and have been here for 20 years as being uh you know, the close confidant of Benito Mussolini.
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And my father was swept up in that dragnet as well, and my uncle and a whole bunch of other family members.
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And then they were sent to the Isle of Man where they were interned.
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And the thing that surprised me most in all of this was talk about the obscure back alleys of the internet.
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I found a trove of photographs of all these internees or many of the internees taken on the Isle of Man.
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And I of course I'm going through the photographs in a sort of morbid fashion seeing if I recognize anyone.
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And then I find two photographs.
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I said, "I know that guy."
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It was my father as a young man lined up with a whole bunch of prisoners behind barbed wire. >> Amazing.
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>> And he never talked about it. >> Huh.
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>> So, did either of your parents talk about what happened?
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>> Uh my father began a little bit towards the end of his life.
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My uncle uh talked about it much more.
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He had after he was interned on the Isle of Man because the Isle of Man was full of Italians and Germans and um they had to um take a load of those people and send them to Canada.
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Which was very very hazardous undertaking because of the U-boats and all these ships were getting sunk and uh so my uncle was they had to put barbed wire down the middle of the ship that my uncle was on because the the British in their zeal hadn't really distinguished between refugee Jews and ardent Nazis.
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And there were a whole bunch of ardent Nazis that that swept up as well.
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So, they had to separate the two.
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Um and my uncle got uh got shipped off uh got shipped off to Canada there.
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So um and then eventually came back.
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And um >> The book is called um Outsider. >> Yeah, Outlander.
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Outlander, outsider, stranger, foreigner.
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>> Because a lot of the book is about >> being an outsider. >> Yeah.
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>> About coming to a country where enemy alien is put on your passport even if you're fleeing or your papers even if you're fleeing oppression.
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Um and then trying to assimilate into a society and never quite being able to do that.
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>> And did you retain that sense of being an outsider? >> Yeah, very much so.
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>> Don't you think it helped you?
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>> Sure, you know, I grew up in South Wales and um and South Wales in the 1950s and 1960s very different to what And Britain is very different in cultural composition today to what it was way back when.
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So I think there was one >> [clears throat] >> I don't think there was any buddy from India or Pakistan in my school.
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I know there was definitely nobody from Asia.
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I think best as I can tell there was one black student.
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And then there were half a dozen, four or five Jews, all of whom were the kids all the sons of boys only school.
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Uh German or European immigrants.
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So they all had the same sort of background.
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So we were different from everybody else.
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We weren't called Jones or Smith or Williams or Evans or Edwards.
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We had these weird names with Zs in the names and Ks and Ys and Xs and Ws and those sorts of things that weren't supposed to be in your name.
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So and there was and we didn't attend because back then there were the school, you know, the religious school assemblies.
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So, we were excluded from the school assemblies.
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So, uh um we uh Yeah, people always thought of us as the Jewish boys.
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>> And that was uncomfortable.
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I There's a story of you looking in the phone book. >> Oh, yes.
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And uh This is back in the days when, you know, you used to get a big phone book deposited.
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And I remember um For several years, when the new phone book arrived, thumbing through the phone book, going past the, you know, the Edwardses and the Evanses and the Joneses and getting to the M's.
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And most of the M's were Morriseys.
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And I kept hoping, and we were the only Moritz in the phone book.
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And I kept hoping fervently that there would be another Moritz in the Cardiff telephone directory, so we could at least have a little bit of companionship and company.
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Uh but that never materialized.
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>> Do you ever still feel that in any way?
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>> Um Yeah, I think I think in I I I I'm sure I do.
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Um I'm In America, living in California, living in San Francisco, particularly in the age of Trump, I'm far more conscious of empathizing with people who now find themselves in that position.
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All these people who are being rounded up by ICE in America.
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Uh all the people who fear a traffic stop by some, you know, ICE agent on one of the main thoroughfares of uh San Francisco or the knock on the door.
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Um, so through our foundation, we do a lot of work trying to protect trying to protect their rights because it's all too easy for the citizenry to turn the other to look the other way and ignore and pretend it isn't happening.
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And Yeah, but you know, they're uh like everything else, I think it's a lot better today than it used to be.
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But um um, you know, there were um, when I came to America, there were Jewish only golf clubs.
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There was um, you know, it's not that long ago in the grand scheme of things that Harvard didn't accept Jews.
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And uh so um it's I'm not complaining about it.
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It's just an observation.
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It's and you know, anti-Semitism is never will never go away.
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Flares up and uh And and sometimes I understand obviously in Britain today is a big topic.
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Um, but it's always in the air.
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It's just a fact of life.
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And uh to some extent, I suppose I've benefited from it because it's made me stronger.
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>> I'll ask you about Britain actually.
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I I've got a a a grandfather with a similar story in a way to yours where I had an Austrian pianist grandfather who was interned in Australia when he when he arrived in the UK.
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And was was sent off also I think with some some Nazis and some fellow immigrants to Australia.
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And and I've got another grandfather who came from Wind Rush. >> lucky.
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There was a very famous um case of a ship getting uh of I don't know if he was on this particular ship of prisoners getting really maltreated by British soldiers on on their way to Australia. >> Yeah.
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>> And the the soldiers were court-martialed afterwards. >> Really, yeah.
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I mean very very tough obviously.
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I've got another grandfather who was from from the the home counties who was with Field Marshal Montgomery when they liberated Paris.
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I've got a great photograph of them going through Paris to adoring crowds.
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I've always felt so proud of of that grandfather and so proud of what Britain did, you know, to to come to the aid of all of these people.
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Now, you been very I think bravely outspoken about about the UK and and some of the problems here with anti-Semitism and some of the attacks that have happened.
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How do you feel about that?
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Did you Did it make you feel very sad kind of this country that welcomed your family with open arms is is regressing in so many ways on this front?
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>> Well, it obviously is regrettable.
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I don't know what the population is, maybe 250,000 Jews today live in live in Britain, so it's a tiny proportion of people.
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And obviously the situation as we all know in in the Middle East has inflamed everything.
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Um but you also know that the breeding ground for a lot of this is in a bunch of places and it gets into the water supply and it is in the British water supply today.
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>> You've written some uh great pieces in in the FT, I would say, consistently criticizing Trump.
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Um you wrote one before he got reelected that really resonated with me that was we should not compromise on character was essentially the in our leaders was essentially the gist of it and I think that has proven true.
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Are you surprised by Silicon Valley's embrace of Trump?
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>> I think you got to be a bit careful or we and people have got to be a bit careful about saying Silicon Valley's embrace of Trump.
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What's clear is that there are some people with big megaphones and large social media followings who clearly have embraced Trump.
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But the majority of people who live in the geography called Silicon Valley.
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Um obviously opposed to the character.
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And he he did he he did better in the 2024 election than he did in 2020 in uh Silicon Valley.
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Got about four percentage points more, maybe five percentage points more, but he still only got about 20% 22% of the electorate.
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So, one's got to be a little a little careful about about that.
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And uh you know, I think part of the bump obviously was because of the confusion and the chaos of the whole fiasco surrounding Joe Biden. >> Mhm.
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Has it been hard for you though with sort of I don't know, former colleagues or friends or founders or whatever in in in tech who have supported Trump?
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Has that been difficult for you? With friendships?
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Oh, it's not that I was close friends with any of these people beforehand anyway.
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And um obviously everybody's I tried to make the case to as many people as possible that yes, you might think government is too big.
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Yes, you might think China has >> Mhm.
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>> uh conducted itself unfairly or NATO doesn't you know, you know, the European companies don't pay for their fair share you maybe or you don't like uh the fact that um the way that interest rates or the economy has been run.
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You you you may have but you would not hire this individual any individual with this character and this background and this appalling abysmal business record, let alone all of his uh personal peccadillos.
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You would never consider hiring him.
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Why would you consider making him the leader of the free world? It makes no sense to me.
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Well, [snorts] they'll say, "We're a single-issue voter.
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We believe in the the economy is the most important thing uh to us or China or whatever or shrinking government."
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But, I just don't think uh I'd prefer to live with a And all of these people have I'm not saying for a moment that >> [clears throat] >> any political leaders is a perfect character or they've been Everybody has their imperfections, but there's a there's a degree of it.
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And this guy is clearly the single worst president that the United States and the world has ever had.
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And you see He is the king of chaos.
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And he from the White House lawn to the Middle East, everywhere he goes, everything he touches winds up in chaos.
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>> If you were There was a fairly well-publicized uh discussion within Sequoia about various uh political views.
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If you were running the firm today, how would you have managed that?
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>> Well, it's it's changed since I was there um because at the time that I was there, um people weren't allowed to express their political views. outside.
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And you know, I don't want to judge the way that the leaders [clears throat] have decided to run the place.
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That's up That's up to them.
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Um I know for a fact that, you know, you see all of these corporate leaders who will show up for the monkey parades or photo op in the White House or a dinner in the White House.
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It's It's the very last place they want to be.
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They know who they're dealing with.
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They're dealing with this absurd buffoon who's running a protection racket.
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But they also are in a very difficult place because they have businesses to run and interests to protect.
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And when you have um >> [snorts] >> a fellow who conducts business in the Oval Office like Tony Soprano used to do outside Satriale's uh pork butchers in Queens, you have to deal with the mob boss, and that's what they're doing.
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They're paying you know, they're paying hush money.
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>> That's very understanding of you, I think.
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And I I wanted to ask you maybe to to clarify things out.
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What, having written the book, what would you ask of people who read it in response to, you know, all sorts of bad things happening in the world, whether it's the rise of anti-Semitism again, whether it's the Trump issues.
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Is there a sort of core message in there that you wanted to get across to people, or was it more just a reflection on the history?
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>> I suppose some of the you know, themes that run through the book are the fragilities of um what appear to be uh stable societies.
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And uh one of the things that I remember as a kid with my grandmother when she was when I was a bit older or with my parents when there'd be some program about uh political violence somewhere, or there'd be a documentary about the 1930s and 1940s in Germany, I would, in my blithe ignorance, say, "That can never happen here.
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It just can never happen here."
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And they would always say, "If it's happened, it can happen again."
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And I think that's the message of the book and to realize how fragile actually everything is and to be constantly vigilant because before you know it outrageous violence and the murders of policemen on the Capitol steps become forgotten.
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The pardoning of people who've committed all sorts of heinous crimes are forgotten.
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The self-dealing is forgotten.
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The persecution of political enemies is forgotten.
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Uh the list goes on and on.
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And if you aren't vigilant it then becomes the society in which you're forced to live.
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>> It's really powerful message.
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Thank you so much for sharing it. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me.