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Hi, I'm Jim O'Shaughnessy and welcome to Infinite Loops.
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Sometimes we get caught up in what feel like infinite loops when trying to figure things out.
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Markets go up and down, research is presented and then refuted, and we find ourselves right back where we started.
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The goal of this podcast is to learn how we can reset our thinking on issues that hopefully leaves us with a better understanding as to why we think the way we think and how we might be able to change that to avoid going in infinite loops of thought.
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We hope to offer our listeners a fresh perspective on a variety of issues and look at them through a multifaceted lens — including history, philosophy, art, science, linguistics, and yes, also through quantitative analysis.
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And through these discussions help you not only become a better investor, but also become a more nuanced thinker.
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With each episode we hope to bring you along with us as we learn together.
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Thanks for joining us, now please enjoy this episode of Infinite Loops.
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Disclaimer: Jim O'Shaughnessy is chairman and Co-Chief Investment Officer of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management, where Jamie Catherwood is an associate.
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All opinions expressed by Jim, Jamie and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management.
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This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.
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Clients of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.
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Jim O'Shaughnessy: Well, hello, everyone.
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It's Jim O'Shaughnessy with another addition of Infinite Loops and I have been looking forward to this interview since we learned who it was going to be and the way we got it.
1:56
As some of you might remember, we experimented with an NFT at Infinite Loops.
2:03
And I had a friend who is very big in NFTs and he said, "To make them really valuable you got to let them unlock something."
2:08
So I thought, "Well, why don't we say that you can become a guest on Infinite Loops so you can co-host or do whatever you want?"
2:15
Well, that's not really what happened.
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What happened was there was a bidding war, which we thought was pretty cool.
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And a gentleman named Dinesh Raju who builds software, I love this, to help the underdog triumph.
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And he got in touch with me right away.
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And he goes, "I don't want to be on your podcast.
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I want to pick somebody who I think is way under the radar who should be way above the radar."
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And he picked my guest today, Dr. David Rhoiney. Welcome, David.
2:50
David Rhoiney: Hey, thank you, Jim. I appreciate it.
2:53
Jim O'Shaughnessy: This is going to be great.
2:55
So first off, man, I look at your list of achievements and I am in awe.
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You went to Navy, you played basketball there.
3:04
You became a surgeon, a robotic surgeon.
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You had a stint in the intelligence services, I know we can't talk too much about that.
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You briefed President Bush and President Obama.
3:19
You've briefed the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
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And then you decided, "Hey, I want to figure out this investing game."
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And you decided with SurgiFi to write a blog.
3:37
And I love, by the way, that you also do the videos because a lot of people can relate to those better.
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And I could just keep going. You're a web designer.
3:44
You are skilled in crisis management. First off, amazing. Congratulations.
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But I want to start at the beginning of your story because you are such an inspirational man that you hear people say, "I could never do that. I can't do that."
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You essentially started from a place of being homeless, taking care of your brother, I believe, your mom had died, I'm sorry to hear that, you managed to navigate not being put in the foster system.
4:31
I have another friend, Rob Henderson, who was put in the foster system.
4:31
And the statistics of it are so grim, but you knew that.
4:39
At a young age, you kind of knew that.
4:39
So please just start kind of at the beginning and tell us the story.
4:48
David Rhoiney: So I was originally from Hawaii and my sperm donor was a Marine.
4:51
So that's why we were there.
5:01
He left when I was pretty young and we were in California.
5:01
And my mom, unfortunately, she had a way rougher life than I did.
5:08
My mom struggled with bipolar disorder as well as diabetes.
5:16
And she would just go in and out of the hospital where it's one mental hospital to another and she'll have these stable periods.
5:24
And when my biological father left, I remember the conversation was just basically, "Hey, you got to be the man in the house now."
5:30
And then he just was gone. I didn't see him again.
5:35
Jim O'Shaughnessy: How old were you then?
5:38
David Rhoiney: I was so young that I can't even remember what grade I was in, right?
5:39
So it was before second grade.
5:45
So I just remember my biological father leaving for a week.
5:45
He went to Chicago, he went to a funeral.
5:56
He came back and I saw the car come down the street.
5:56
So I take off running, we're in Compton California to, "Hey, my dad's home." Right?
6:02
And I just see all these clothes go flying out the door.
6:08
And my dad come out and he's picking up clothes and he grabs me on the shoulder and says, "Hey, guess what?
6:14
You got to be the man in the house now." And he's gone, right?
6:17
So I didn't hear from him for a while.
6:17
So then my mom, that whole interaction destabilized our family, right?
6:24
So then we just jumped from place to place depending on where my mom could find a job and what boyfriend she had at the time.
6:32
So for a long time, I had never lived in one place longer than three years.
6:48
I'll be 38 this year, the longest I've lived in any one place in my life was probably four years at the Naval Academy. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
6:57
David Rhoiney: So that was the longest period of me living in any one location because we would leave somewhere, come back, leave to go somewhere else, come back.
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So what ended up happening is my mom was on a very, very powerful medication called lithium bicarbonate.
7:17
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I know about that one.
7:18
David Rhoiney: That medication, there's less and less people on it today.
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It's not used as frequently. There's better medicine.
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But she had been on it since she was like 15, right?
7:25
Like I said, she had a rough childhood.
7:30
She was on a very high dose.
7:30
And anytime she forgot to take her medicine because she would have manic episodes, she would just spiral out of control and she'd end up in the hospital for a couple of months at a time.
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We'd go live on some random person's couch or at their house.
7:41
And my mom, for the final time, she had a new psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist was like, "Well, you don't need to be on this."
7:56
And took her off without weaning her off.
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I was 15 or 16 at the time and she just couldn't handle it.
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So what ended up happening to me is I ended up missing half my junior year taking care of my mom at home.
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Did not go to school, they threatened to kick me out, and it was just a disaster, right?
8:26
We're talking about junior high school where we've already been homeless, we've already been evicted multiple times, had a car that we were living in at one point.
8:31
Literally, I begged my mom to pull over to the side of the road because something was just off with the car we were driving.
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We didn't even make it directly to the house.
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We were around the corner from our apartment, get out the car, and then you just hear a massive explosion in the car.
8:53
Literally, we were seconds from dying in the car.
8:58
So we had already been through all of that and then this happens, right?
8:58
So my brother, who I think is way smarter than me, had realized, were pretty introspective about things, about our situation, he realized he would never be able to pay for college, my mom couldn't pay for college.
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So randomly, he didn't come home one night and he showed up really late.
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And I was the protector so I'm like, "What the heck are you doing?"
9:23
And he just signed up for the military, right?
9:28
Because he was like, "Look, there's this thing. They'll pay for it.
9:28
I can go to college that way so mom doesn't have to worry about it."
9:32
So he had already signed up for the military, signed up for the army, and then that happened with my mom.
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And all I'm thinking in my head is, "I just got to get us through to him being 18."
9:44
Because I'm like, "I'm a high school basketball player.
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If they put me in the foster system, I'm never making it out of here." Right?
9:57
I did just enough to skirt us by that I knew that if I could get to him being 18, then he could petition to take care of me theoretically, right? So that was my plan.
10:15
And I had to hide the fact that I was essentially paying the bills because I would get my mom's paycheck, go to the check-cashing store, and cash the check, go buy the groceries, stuff like that.
10:28
And I was staying home making sure that either she didn't walk off or someone wasn't taking our money and I would just stay there every day.
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And we're talking about I'm playing high school basketball, I'm supposed to be pretty good.
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And I missed, basically, half of my junior year.
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So then she was never the same after that.
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So my brother goes off to the army.
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My senior year I spent basically sleeping on someone's random bed.
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One of the coaches from one of the youth teams allowed me to stay there.
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And I'm checking on my house so nobody breaks in because I didn't want to stay home by myself, right?
11:07
And my mom sort of is no longer my mom anymore, right?
11:13
I'm still making sure to pay the bills, things like that.
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And I'm slowly helping out.
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And then I leave to go to the Naval Academy and I went to the Naval Academy Prep School and everything destabilizes, right?
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My mom has another episode, doesn't pay the rent, we lose everything again.
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But months before I even leave to go to the Naval Academy, I had a massive GI bleed where I almost died, right?
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Because I was told that I had to bottle all that stress up and I couldn't tell anybody, right?
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And I physically couldn't tell anybody because if I tell the wrong person, they're going to call child protective services, it's going to make my mom look bad.
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I'm going to end up in the foster system. I'm like, "I'm so close.
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I just got to get us through." Right?
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And one day when I was 17, I know I'm jumping around a little bit, but it's important to tell the story this way, I was 17 and I was getting ready.
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It was April, 2002, we're almost 20 years to the day of this, where I was getting ready to walk down the stairs.
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I just felt super warm and I got this metallic taste in my mouth.
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Felt super warm and I was going to walk to the bus.
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And then I was like, "Ah, no, let me go back upstairs."
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I remember I walked in the house and my mom was like, "What are you doing back?"
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And I looked at her and then I went, I looked at her again, and I walked to the toilet and I filled the entire toilet bowl up with blood. And I was like, "Mom." And she came in there.
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My mom was a CNA at one point, certified nursing assistant.
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She came in there and was like, "Oh my God, we got to get you to the doctor."
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We didn't call 911 because we couldn't afford it, right?
12:58
We tried to catch the bus, but we ended up walking a couple of miles to the doctor, right?
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I'm bleeding, actively bleeding.
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So we go and it was Pacific Healthcare, the clinic right off of Long Beach Boulevard, right past Wardlow, right?
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I think it's a different healthcare organization now, but went there and the guy, African American family practice doctor who used to be an Air Force surgeon who knew I was going to the Naval Academy, told him what happened.
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Apparently, I was flush and he was like, "We got to get you to that hospital.
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You're having a GI bleed."
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So we tried to wait for the ambulance and my mom was like, "Nah, we're going to walk."
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So we walk another mile back to get to the hospital.
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I show up in the ER, the doctor had called ahead, and they put me in the thing and I'm spewing stuff.
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They put a NG tube down into my nose to start to get the blood out of my stomach and I pass out.
14:00
The next thing you know, I wake up in the ICU and I got a tube in my throat.
14:05
So then a couple of weeks go by, I lose a bunch of weight, and my coaches from the Naval Academy hid all of it to get me into the Naval Academy because they knew what I was going through at home and figured that, "We got to get him out of this situation."
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So they did whatever it took to get me into the Naval Academy Prep School and to get me taken care of under or the DOD's things.
14:31
So I get to the Naval Academy Prep School, I'm going through training and I'm not hearing from my mom.
14:38
Well, I finally hear at the end of the training, I think it was four to six weeks or something like that, I call my grandmother like, "Hey, what's going on with my mom?"
14:50
And then she tells me like, "Oh, I'm sorry to tell you, you guys lost everything.
14:53
You have nothing to come back to.
14:53
All the clothes are gone." Everything's gone. I had nowhere to stay. Nowhere. So I had to start over.
14:58
So then I go through the Naval Academy Prep School and every single day I'm like, "Man, I don't know if this is for me."
15:11
I'm like, "What am I doing here?
15:11
I'm not the person that goes here."
15:11
And I ended up being pretty good in chemistry and math.
15:20
So my professors at the prep school was like, "David, I think this is the best place for you."
15:24
Because I wanted to get out and go play basketball at Penn or Princeton or somewhere because I just remember the colors and Ivy League being deemed essentially really elite.
15:35
And I wanted to be those things coming from where I came from because I wanted to prove to everybody that I could lift my family up.
15:42
I had made a promise to my grandmother.
15:47
And in 2003, now mind you, I had the massive GI bleed in April 2002, my mom lost everything during the summertime of 2002, and then in February 5th of 2003, my grandmother, who I made that promise to, had a massive heart attack after having a stroke and died.
16:08
I had finally gotten a cell phone because cell phones weren't really that ubiquitous at the time, but it was starting to come in.
16:16
I finally got a cell phone and for some reason, I didn't take my cell phone with me to the game, and it was the best game I ever played in my life, right?
16:26
I played against a future NBA player and I just absolutely had the best game of my life.
16:34
And I was so proud of myself.
16:34
And then I turned my phone on and, "Hey, David, you got to call.
16:39
Hey, David, I really need you to call me."
16:47
And there's like 20 of these messages and it just got progressively worse.
16:47
And then it said, "David, we can't wait any longer.
16:51
Your grandmother's dead."
16:51
And I remember it was late at night.
16:58
I heard the news and I just threw up everywhere. That was my reaction.
16:58
And my heart just sunk, right?
17:06
The person who I made the promise to take care of my mom and my brother to, who I was going to buy a big house one day because she was my protector, died.
17:11
My whole reason for playing basketball, done, right?
17:17
And my mom's a shell of herself.
17:17
So then I go home and I just was like, "I'm not going back." Right?
17:26
Because there's no reason for me to be there anymore, right?
17:32
This whole thing, I was trying to fulfill this promise.
17:32
There was no reason to be there anymore.
17:36
And then my coach, at the time from the prep school, called me, he was like, "David, you got to get on that plane."
17:43
And he talked me into getting it on the plane.
17:43
So then I came back to the prep school.
17:49
I graduated, I ended up on the honors list and whatever playing basketball.
17:49
That's all I was concerned about.
17:55
I didn't think of myself of any other thing other than playing basketball.
17:55
I was a basketball player.
17:59
That was the thing that was going to take care of my family was basketball.
18:04
So then I get to the Naval Academy and I'm different than everybody.
18:04
I don't talk the same, I don't walk the same, not from the same background.
18:12
Everyone has these stable family life and here I am this vagabond.
18:17
Honestly, I felt so out of place and when I think about it now, I still feel out of place about it, right?
18:23
So then I show up and I'm not necessarily struggling in academics.
18:33
I'm barely even studying and I'm doing pretty well, right?
18:38
So then at the Naval Academy, checking in, they make you take some tests to see where you are along the academic curve and whether or not you can place out at some classes.
18:52
So then I placed out at chemistry and they're looking around like, "What?"
18:59
Remember, I missed half my junior year in high school and they're like, "Well, he knows chemistry."
19:04
Chemistry, physics, math, all that stuff was just intuitive to me, right?
19:04
So I did not have to work hard at it.
19:12
So I placed out at that and I get into an advanced placement class where I'm taking classes as a freshman with some upper levels.
19:18
I'm taking biology and I go in there and the professor's asking everybody like, "Hey, what do you want to do with your life?
19:23
And what are you using biology for because the Naval Academy doesn't have pre-med?"
19:28
And I'm looking in there and the people are like, "Oh, I'm going to dental school and I'm going to medical school."
19:37
And I'm looking around like, "I don't know what the hell I'm doing."
19:37
But then I look across from me and I'm seeing folks that I'm helping in biology.
19:42
And I go, "Well, if they're going to medical school, does that mean I should go to medical school?"
19:48
So then I show up in my advisor's office the next day and I'm like, "Hey, everyone in this class is going to medical school or dental school.
20:01
Does that mean I'm going there too?"
20:01
And he was like, "Do you want to?"
20:01
I was like, "I never thought I could."
20:05
And he was like, "You can do this."
20:05
So he just kept pushing me, right?
20:05
Even when I stumbled back and I wasn't focused, he'd be like, "You can still do this. I still believe in you."
20:17
So then we go through the Academy my own way, right?
20:17
I had some devastating injuries.
20:25
One was to my ankle and another to my thumb that required multiple surgeries.
20:31
And then I lost basketball because the injuries just add up.
20:31
And then I'm like, "Well, I'm going to just get in shape."
20:36
I was like, "Well, how am I getting in shape?
20:36
Well, I'm going to go run track."
20:40
So I went from playing Division One basketball to being a jumper and sprinter on the Division One track team, right?
20:50
And it's not just like I was just some random person.
20:50
I actually was competing in events.
20:50
And it appealed to me at the time that that's something abnormal to do.
20:57
I just see stuff and I go, "I'm going to go do it," right?
21:01
So at the Academy, the whole time I was a chemistry major until my junior year when the basketball coach was like, "Ah, no, this is taking up too much time.
21:08
You either need to pick basketball or pick chemistry."
21:12
So I picked basketball and then I lost basketball.
21:19
And in choosing and switching, I switched to applied mathematics, which was a new degree like track at the time.
21:24
And I finished that degree plan in a year and a half because I was already taking a bunch of classes.
21:30
And I wasn't studying or anything like that, I was just doing stuff, right?
21:36
And then going into my senior year, I thought I wanted to be an EOD person, but I couldn't qualify because I had chronic migraines.
21:45
So then I was like, "Well, I'll just go and blow stuff up in the Marine Corps." Right?
21:49
Because that's going to be cool.
21:49
Blowing stuff up is awesome.
21:49
So then I finished my Marine Corps selection type stuff so I can get my evaluation so that they can give me a recommendation on whether or not I should be in the Marine Corps.
22:09
And I show back up in the Naval Academy during the summer heading into my senior year and the commandant at the time called me in the office.
22:13
And he's just like, "Ah, you're going to be a Marine, but not the type of Marine you think."
22:17
I was like, "What are you talking about?"
22:17
He was like, "You're going to be a submariner."
22:25
And I was like, "That's for smart people."
22:27
He was like, "Well, David, you haven't realized yet that everyone I've talked to said you're smart."
22:31
And I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about."
22:35
And then he was like, "Well, if you pass this interview, we're going to give you some money."
22:40
And that immediately popped in my head and I was like, "Money, you say." Right?
22:40
Because again, my mom, I'm giving her money the entire time at the Academy and I'm doling out money that I really don't even have because I wasn't making a lot of money to help take care of stuff.
22:59
So I'm like, "Whoa, you're talking about tens of thousands?" Oh, yeah. Where do I sign up?"
23:07
So I had never been on a submarine before, never even thought about going on submarines before.
23:12
I just had to pass the interview and I was like, "Well, what do I got to do to do it?"
23:12
I finally studied and then I went and did pretty well on the nuclear interview and I got into the program.
23:22
Then a crazy thing happened when I got the money.
23:22
It made me unhappy because I had that money, but my family was still struggling.
23:30
So I gave a lot of it away.
23:30
I gave my mom some money.
23:41
I gave my brother some money and then I donated the majority of the rest of it. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
23:47
David Rhoiney: I tried to do it anonymously because I didn't want the credit, but they found me anyway because the church I donated to had to give me a tax receipt which I had no clue about.
23:53
So I graduate the Naval Academy. I'm starting.
23:58
I do a portion of my nuclear pipeline.
23:58
Then I go to keep my training going and come to find out I don't have a medical waiver to even be on a submarine. They forgot to do it. So I'm 22, 23 years old.
24:15
I'm partying all time, still not focused, still not paying attention to anything I need to do.
24:20
I basically was given the option to get out in the military.
24:30
I was like, "Well, I don't know what I want to do yet."
24:30
Being in the military wasn't bad and it was giving me enough money to take care of my mom and her healthcare.
24:37
At this point, me and my brother are both sending my mom money.
24:42
She's still struggling a little bit, but it's not as bad because she can't work so we're augmenting.
24:47
I'm like, "Well, I'm single.
24:47
I still don't know what I want to do. I want to stay in."
24:54
So then I got a call and they ask me if I wanted to be a cryptologist because I have a degree in applied mathematics and I have this clearance now.
24:58
I was like, "What is that?"
25:04
because I have no idea what it is.
25:04
There's some cool math stuff.
25:08
I was like, "Oh, I'm a math guy. I like numbers. Let's do it."
25:08
So then I went and I did that for roughly about four years.
25:16
I just realized that I wasn't fulfilling what I needed to do and I started to get focused on what I needed to do.
25:23
I started just taking tests, GRE.
25:31
I was studying for GMAT, taking LSAT.
25:31
I had no idea what I wanted to do.
25:36
The thing I was scared to do was to go to medical school because what if I fail?
25:36
What would everyone say about me if I fail?
25:43
Then my ex, she's obviously my ex-girlfriend, so my girlfriend at the time was like, "Well, what if just take it and see what happens."
25:56
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
25:57
David Rhoiney: I took it.
25:57
I disrespected the test by not studying for the MCAT and I freaking bombed everything other than the math and science.
26:00
The thing that happens with me is I'm very competitive.
26:07
I was like, "Oh, I'm not.
26:07
Obviously, I know I can pass this test."
26:14
Then I respected it the second time around and I still didn't do that much better.
26:20
So I raised it just a little bit and I was distraught and I was like, "Well, maybe I'm not cut out for that."
26:24
Then I called my advisor from the academy and say, "Hey, this is the score guy."
26:29
He was like, "Guess what?
26:29
You're still going to get in. Apply anyway."
26:35
I didn't have the super high GPA from the academy. I didn't study. I had a 2. 68, I think.
26:42
So I took some extra classes to finish my pre reqs and I just applied as many places as possible and then I was deployed to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
26:47
I got a week off to do all my interviews and then I went and happened to interview at a place that...
27:00
I interviewed on a Thursday.
27:00
I was flying back into Cuba Saturday morning.
27:00
They let me know Friday night, that next day, that I was in the medical school.
27:04
Because they said they wanted to rush it through and get me through because they knew I was flying back outside the country because communication there wasn't great.
27:15
They were like, "Will you come?"
27:15
I was like, "I'm a super loyal person, so yeah, I'll come" and I canceled every other interview I got.
27:25
Then I made it into medical school and I show up and they're like, "Well, you're going to need a tutor," and I laughed because I was like, "I've never needed a tutor in my life." I was like, "I'm good."
27:37
So as much of a idiot I am, I went out drinking and partying the night before the first exam to prove a point. To prove a point. So I'm in there.
27:44
I'm a first year student.
27:52
All the rest of the first year students, it was their anatomy exam.
27:52
Everyone's out, cramming, doing all-nighters.
27:57
I'm with the second year's drinking and they're like, "Shouldn't you be studying right now?" I'm like, "I'm good."
28:02
I show up the next day, get a 96, highest in the class.
28:09
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Shut up. That's great.
28:11
David Rhoiney: That week, they ask me to tutor other people.
28:16
So then I did pretty well in medical school.
28:16
I realized I learned better on my own and at my own pace because I can learn faster.
28:23
So I just treat it like a job.
28:23
I didn't do all-nighters.
28:29
I was partying the majority of the time on the weekend and start back on Sunday and go through it.
28:34
I treat it like a 9:00 to 5:00 and I put my time in, my 10 hours in a day, and I did pretty well in medical school.
28:39
Finished in the top, I think top 15% or something like that.
28:44
Did very well on my board exams, and then I got selected to train as a general surgeon.
28:52
I originally was going to be a neurosurgeon, but thank God I'm not that because my lifestyle would be terrible.
28:56
Then I got to train as a civilian, do general surgery.
28:56
The whole time, if we back up, I'm just learning to become financially literate.
29:06
When I graduated the Naval Academy, I was financially illiterate and I hate that term, but it's true.
29:12
Literally, I was messing up my money left and right at the Naval Academy.
29:19
That coach that I mentioned earlier from prep school, he happened to be an advisor from [inaudible] Primerica at the time. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Okay.
29:28
David Rhoiney: My sponsor parents from the Naval Academy called him, was like, "Hey, we noticed that David has 10 credit cards and he won't listen to us because he sees us as his parents, so he's not going to listen to us, but we know he listens to you."
29:42
He came down and read me the riot act.
29:42
He was like, "David, why are you messing up your money?
29:51
You know you have to take care of other things and you can't do this."
29:55
He was like, "Do you know what the rule of 72 was?"
29:55
I hated not knowing it, so I went and looked it up.
30:01
Then he taught me these things.
30:01
He's like, "What's [inaudible] compound is? I told him, formula.
30:06
He was like, "Do you know what the power of compound is?
30:06
So then I went and looked it up.
30:10
He was like, "This is what I'm going to do.
30:10
You are now going to be on a allotment of $50 a month.
30:13
The rest of your money is going into a [inaudible]."
30:19
I was like, "How am I supposed to eat and go on dates with $50 a month?"
30:23
He was like, "Give me all these credit cards."
30:23
Took them, cut them up and I just went from there.
30:31
Even when I got a bonus at the Naval Academy, he would take some of that money and put it into mutual funds.
30:38
No idea what he was putting it in.
30:38
Soon I graduated the Naval Academy.
30:44
I'm looking at my statements and I'm like, "Man, this is the most money I've ever seen in my life. Ah, I got some money."
30:48
I thought I was doing great.
30:48
My coach stopped being an advisor for Primerica.
30:54
This is 2007, 2008 and a great financial crisis stuff is going on.
30:54
I'm looking around like, "Man, why is this dropping?"
31:02
I'm like, "But guess what?
31:02
I know I just got to put more money in it because it's going to go up." So I called Primerica.
31:07
Well, it turns out I was in some closed-end mutual funds.
31:12
I was like, "Well, what's that?"
31:17
And the guy, well, he was getting annoyed with me asking these questions.
31:17
He is like, "Don't you have a financial advisor?"
31:22
I was like, "Yeah, but I don't think he work for Primerica anymore."
31:26
I was like, "Can you assign me a new one?" He was like, "No.
31:26
You don't have enough money."
31:30
Again, I take that personally.
31:30
So I was like, "Okay, what do financial advisors read?"
31:37
I was like, "I just graduated Naval Academy.
31:37
I know I can learn stuff.
31:42
I may not be the smartest, but I know I can learn whatever it is.
31:42
Just tell me what book I need to read."
31:46
And he was like, "How about you just start with your perspectives?"
31:51
So I read the perspectives. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
31:53
David Rhoiney: Took me a long time to get through it, but there's so much jargon in there.
31:53
I was having [inaudible].
31:59
I think at the time it was [SFGs], right?
31:59
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
32:03
Yeah David Rhoiney: The early days of Google and now I'm trying to find all. What does this mean? What does this mean?
32:08
It pissed me off, so then I just kept learning and learning and learning and learning.
32:16
You fast forward to the pandemic.
32:16
I'm a new attending and I'm not operating as much because the world basically shut down.
32:25
All my elective cases is basically gone to zero. I'm looking around.
32:25
I'm just watching people, friend, people I know start GoFundMes and do all this other stuff.
32:32
I'm like, "Man, I got to find a way to help."
32:38
I'm not a person who's like, "Well, I'll just give you money."
32:43
That doesn't work for anybody because their brain doesn't form the connection that's needed in order to prevent the problem in the future.
32:48
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Exactly.
32:49
David Rhoiney: So I was like, "Well, how do I help? How do I help?"
32:50
I was calling my brother.
32:50
I was like, "Man, I'm really frustrated.
32:53
I really want to help people.
32:53
I really just want to help.
32:56
I feel like I'm being helpful right now."
32:56
He was like, "Do you realize how much knowledge you've accumulated in your head just from finance?"
33:04
I was like, "What are you talking about?"
33:04
He was like, "Dude, you're the reason I invest.
33:08
You're the reason I do this.
33:08
You tell me stuff all the time and I don't even think you realize it."
33:13
And I was like, "Man, people don't want to hear it from me."
33:13
He's like, "I don't know if that's true."
33:17
He was like, "How about this?
33:17
Find a place and just put it all in one place."
33:23
So I was like, "Okay, cool.
33:23
I guess I can just get a website domain and put some blog articles up." I'm a terrible writer. I hate writing. I can't stand it.
33:31
I'm an absolute, terrible writer. I told him. I was like, "Hey, man. I'm a terrible writer."
33:36
He's like, "It doesn't matter.
33:40
Just do it like you're talking to people and see what their response is."
33:40
I didn't want my brother to show me up and to call me out. He's my older brother.
33:45
Even though I'm bigger, he's still my older brother, so I go do it.
33:49
I purposely don't focus on the design of the website because I will get bogged down in the details.
33:57
I'm trying to make sure that the interactions...
33:57
I was like, "You know what?
34:02
I'm not going to focus on that.
34:02
The whole purpose of this is just to write and put whatever's in my head on paper."
34:06
So that's why SurgiFi is a terrible name.
34:06
I was trying to come up with names.
34:16
I was just like, "What am I?
34:16
I'm a surgeon and like finance, so SurgiFi. There you go. Okay. Is that domain great? There you go."
34:22
I know a little bit of enough of a lot of things to be dangerous to a lot of things, but I'm no one expert other than surgery, maybe cybersecurity, in those areas.
34:38
So I know a little bit of design. I can write code.
34:38
I can do web development.
34:46
So I just did it all myself and then launched this website.
34:46
I was just like, "Oh, my God.
34:51
I don't even want to tell people it exists."
34:51
So I was like, will tiptoe out there, send it a little bit and then people would give me positive feedback so it would reinforce the loop.
34:59
I was like, "Okay, let me put another article out there.
35:04
Okay, let me do it again."
35:04
then I was on Twitter talking to Tyler Olson, because originally before I was brainstorming doing the blog, I was like, "Man, well, I had looked up financial advisors, how to start a financial advising firm and I was just blog.
35:22
I was like, "I don't need the money.
35:22
I'll just get certified."
35:22
Because I know I can pass the test and I'll just start a firm and not charge clients. Then I started reading.
35:28
I came across a Michael Kitces' article because of Tyler Olson.
35:36
He sent me the article and I read it.
35:36
It was about starting a [ARA], but then I read through it and I'm like, "Man, this is freaking complicated.
35:48
Why is there all these different..."
35:48
I was like, "Well, what if I just fix that?"
35:54
I was like, "I can design a solution that fixes that."
35:54
Then I pitched the idea to Tyler to see what he thought of it and he was like, " You should really talk to this guy, Jason Wenk."
36:04
Then he sets up, call Jason Wenk and I.
36:04
I'm sitting here talking to Jason Wenk about my idea because I'm getting a little sidetracked.
36:09
Jason's like, "Yeah, that's what we're building at Altruist." I'm like, "Huh?"
36:15
I was like, "Well, I don't need to do that in here."
36:18
I was like, "I'm sorry for pitching your own idea then, man."
36:18
Me and Jason have been friends ever since.
36:23
We used to talk every couple of weeks.
36:23
His schedule got a little busy.
36:28
So we talk at least one to two times per month that we carve out at least a hour just to talk.
36:35
I just was like, "Okay, I'll just focus on the blog."
36:35
The whole thing with the blog was like, "I don't need to make money from it, so I don't really care.
36:39
If you read it, you read it.
36:39
If you don't, you don't."
36:43
Then on Twitter, I had no idea because I wasn't a real, big, heavy social media person on Twitter.
36:49
Twitter, I enjoy because I can just talk to people. So I'd go on there.
36:56
At first, I was just sharing articles, but I realized that people weren't interacting with it because there's no face associated with it.
37:03
So then Jason Wenk was like, "Hey, man."
37:08
Because I was like, "Hey, can you give me some feedback on the blog?"
37:08
And he gave me an honest feedback.
37:11
He was like, "Man, you need to show your face.
37:11
Your face and your story is what's going to actually get people to listen to you."
37:16
He kept saying, "I don't think you realize how powerful your story is."
37:22
So he would be like, "You need to talk."
37:22
Then at the same time, I happened to get connected with Ty and he was like, " I'm going to connect with you with Tyrone Ross."
37:31
So then me and Tyrone talked and Tyrone was like, "Hey, you got to share this story, man. You got to share.
37:34
You got to tell people how you got here.
37:34
You got to tell them because there's a lot of stuff that you went through that most people aren't going to go through, but they might be able to identify with it and they can understand if you can fight through."
37:41
So then through Tyrone, I meet Jamie Hopkins and then Jamie Hopkins is like, "Dude, you got to share more video."
37:52
I'm like, "I don't like seeing myself.
37:52
I don't even like hearing myself."
37:56
I was like, "Dude, I really don't."
37:56
I was like, "I don't have the confidence."
37:56
He's like, "Dude, just do it."
38:00
So then he challenged me and I was like, "Well, I'm not a coward, man. I got courage."
38:00
So every morning what I do before I get out of the car is that I listen to something or whatever I'm thinking about during the night.
38:09
I just say what's on my mind.
38:14
I try and rationally think through these things that is data driven like, "Hey, this is what I've read here.
38:19
This is what I'm thinking about," how to mentally approach these things.
38:26
So then over the course of things, I need to be better about being consistent.
38:26
I just try to share as much knowledge as I've gained.
38:32
I spend a lot of time reading financial articles, the academic stuff, the really heavy academic stuff, because I realized that all these news articles and blog articles, they were missing something.
38:47
There was a little key component missing and I'm like, "No, something's off here.
38:47
The math doesn't make sense."
38:52
Then I just start reaching out and asking people questions.
38:52
Anybody I found on Twitter, I was asking questions.
38:58
Pretty soon, I find myself just I'm learning about this stuff.
38:58
As other people are learning, I'm catching up.
39:06
So now, I have no idea what I'm ultimately going to do in finance.
39:12
I just want to make sure that everyone gets access to quality financial information because the way the world works is a certain, and it's not even a certain, it's a majority percentage of people are not going to have access to a financial advisor because they don't make enough,- Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right. David Rhoiney: ...
39:32
because the economics of financial planning and financial advising does not lend to taking care of the person who's got a net worth of zero or negative or making $35,000 a year. I get the economics.
39:48
I really get it, but those people need help too, and that's why I share my story.
39:56
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Just so many things going through my head.
40:01
Your life could be a movie, for sure.
40:01
I thought I flashed on Good Will Hunting a lot when you were telling me your story.
40:10
One of the things that I want to ask you about is it seems to me that obviously, you're very bright.
40:18
You can pick stuff up really quickly, but one of the things that you do and that I've seen on Twitter and I've seen in your videos is people are so afraid to ask questions.
40:33
What I find so refreshing about you is you don't give a fuck.
40:41
You're just like, "I don't know.
40:41
I don't know what this is.
40:41
Explain it to me," and people hate to do that because they appear like they don't know.
40:48
I got to tell you, most people don't know.
40:55
In the industry, my company tries to use the least amount of jargon possible, but you get into that, those terms of art like bips is basis points and all that stuff.
41:12
I often say to people who are in finance, I'm like, "Hey, go read a cryptology paper.
41:12
See how much of that you're going to understand.
41:19
Read a medical textbook, do you understand any of that?" So they get that. "Oh, yeah.
41:25
No I don't," and I say, "Would you ask questions about it?"
41:31
"Well, you know," and they [inaudible].
41:31
It's like we have this bug in our human OS that says, "I don't know makes me look stupid."
41:40
I think it's just the other way around.
41:40
Smart people say I don't know all the time because how else are you going to learn?
41:46
You had to feel some props, when you are briefing the Joint Chiefs of Staff and President Obama and President Bush. Come on, man.
42:05
You had- David Rhoiney: Yes. Jim O'Shaughnessy: ... to feel.
42:06
David Rhoiney: Honestly, no.
42:09
I'm being dead serious because- Jim O'Shaughnessy: Really? David Rhoiney: ... I don't fan.
42:12
Now, if Denzel Washington ever came out to me, I literally will lose it.
42:17
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love Denzel too.
42:19
David Rhoiney: In my head, Warren Buffett was like...
42:22
When I started learning finance, I googled who is the best investor ever and Warren Buffett came up. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Sure.
42:32
David Rhoiney: Those two people, yeah, I would probably lose it because in my head, I don't idolize anyone, but I idolize those two.
42:39
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
42:40
David Rhoiney: But in reality, I was just doing my job.
42:40
I happened to be the person who was on that shift responsible for the intel brief that day.
42:44
I didn't realize at the time that they were even going to be there.
42:51
It just happened that at the time, the way it works is there's a VTC and you're connected in with a bunch of people and they panned over and they're like, "Oh, yeah.
43:04
Do you realize you just briefed this person?" I go, "What?" And I go, "Okay, cool. That's fine."
43:11
But even there, that was a struggle a little bit because I got put in a job that, honestly, it was a lot of responsibility for a knucklehead at the age of 23.
43:26
But I rose to the occasion because I did not want to look bad.
43:26
I realized I wasn't as smart as those folks, so then I had to work harder to catch up to them and then make them understand that I was their peer, not their subordinate.
43:38
That's always been my thing.
43:38
It's like, "Okay, I may be starting behind you, but I won't be there for long."
43:42
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
43:44
David Rhoiney: The other thing that I realized is everyone puts their pants on one pants leg at a time.
43:50
The other thing is, if you got to take a shit, you're wiping your own ass.
43:53
Jim O'Shaughnessy: That's right.
43:55
David Rhoiney: This isn't a movie where you're paying somebody to come wipe.
43:56
So from that standpoint, everyone's human in my regard.
44:01
I treat the janitor just as well as I treat the CEO of the hospital and I say hello to everybody.
44:08
I've always been that way because my mom would roll over in her grave if I did it any other way.
44:16
My grandmother would piss on my grave from her grave if I did it any other way.
44:23
So that's just who I am and that's what I teach my kids to be.
44:23
That's who I aspire to be, that no matter where I am, in my head, I'm still that kid that was picking up clothes off the homeless shelter.
44:37
Because I realized that it was lucky bounces a long way. Think about it.
44:37
Less than 1% of high school athletes make it to play college basketball at the division one level.
44:45
Then I went on to also run track at the division one level.
44:52
Then I went on to become a cryptologist.
45:00
A guy who has grown up in Compton, California went to become a cryptologist.
45:00
Majority of my family were in the gangs and stuff like that and I'm in cryptology.
45:05
Then I become a surgeon, which that's already 1% of whatever.
45:12
I was this needle in a haystack that kept bouncing along that happened and made it, and the whole entire time, this is like I don't want to be seen as someone who doesn't know, but I know I don't know enough.
45:33
The other thing is I let other people be the experts.
45:38
Regardless of what I know, I let other people be the expert and I try to learn as much from them.
45:38
I assume I'm never the smartest one in the room.
45:43
I'm definitely not the smartest one in the room today.
45:49
That's just reality and that's how I do things.
45:49
People are so afraid just to ask a question.
45:56
Don't get the I believe button easily.
45:56
But if my brain is like, " Whoa, I don't get that." I'm like, "Fuck that. I'm just going to ask. I don't believe that. Can you?
46:04
Here's the reason why I don't believe. Here's what I read.
46:04
Can you please correct me on this?"
46:08
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I use that, your you treat the janitor as you treat...
46:15
I use that as a litmus test.
46:22
If I'm thinking of investing in anyone or if I'm thinking of hiring somebody, I'll take them out to lunch or had to do it by Zoom where you can't see it, but anyone who treats the wait staff horribly, I will never hire ever, because that is the biggest stick out of a person who's just not a quality person, frankly.
46:47
Because we're all people.
46:47
Everyone deserves your respect, and how hard is it?
46:54
My mother beat those manners into me.
46:54
And I never thought that I would see a day where having manners was this great advantage in a career.
47:04
And yet, I have taken a lot of people out who have treated the wait staff horribly.
47:13
The worst profile for me is to kiss up, kick down. David Rhoiney: Oh yeah.
47:25
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Because that's a cancer, I think.
47:30
And the thing that I love about you and I want to ask you a little bit more about, is you've had this extraordinary life and you are building, I don't know whether you're familiar with Scott Adams who talks about talent stacks and what he means by that is that the best way to succeed is to be good, not the best, but good at a number of things.
47:59
And so when I apply that to you, man, your talent stack is ridiculous.
47:59
It's cryptology, financial education, experienced surgeon, business planner, emergency management.
48:07
You're a great writer, even though you think you're not.
48:15
You're a good public speaker.
48:15
And so all of that stuff together puts you into a category that very few people can aspire to.
48:21
And so this is my question to you, let's say you started mentoring kids and what advice would you have for a kid who was very much similar, you saw a lot of yourself in them? Yeah.
48:45
Is there a path, is there a methodology that they can take where they can climb this mountain endlessly, like you've done?
48:53
David Rhoiney: So a lot of people don't know this, I do mentor a lot of people.
48:59
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Oh, that's great. David Rhoiney: Okay.
49:00
I freely give up my time to anyone who wants my help. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow. That's awesome.
49:05
David Rhoiney: I have a big thing about that, right?
49:10
If someone's asking you for help, that takes a lot of courage to do it, right?
49:15
And part of the reason I do it is there's a lot of people, even till today, that just say no to me, they won't help me.
49:20
And the thing that I tell them is set your goal as high as possible.
49:28
And if you fall short of it, you're still overachieving.
49:36
And so for me, I just keep saying, "Well, I'm going to try and get here.
49:40
I don't know how I'm going to get there."
49:40
And then I just chip away at it and chip away at it and be relentless about it.
49:44
I mean, in medical school, I put my own money and credit up to pay for someone else's medical school admission. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Okay.
50:00
David Rhoiney: For their entire first year. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
50:02
David Rhoiney: I had to cosign that loan and put my name behind that loan.
50:02
I had no money, none but someone asked me because I was working with the Black Student Union at Truman State University and Bertha Thomas said, "Hey, I got this student who really wants to go to medical school, who's from Nigeria, family's in Canada.
50:26
And he fears that he can't go because he can't afford it."
50:34
And I said, "Well, that's bullshit.
50:34
We're going to figure it out."
50:34
And I worked with him, helped get his MCAT score up.
50:40
I helped direct how to do his interviews.
50:40
I talked to every medical school for him.
50:45
And then he got in, he went to my medical school because guess what? Guess where I went? He went there.
50:50
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right. Yeah.
50:52
David Rhoiney: He even got a scholarship from a different place and still went to my medical school because guess what, that's where I went. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
51:01
David Rhoiney: Someone who went to the Naval Academy with me who says I'm his mentor, even though he graduated before me, I helped him get into my medical school and at a better medical school than mine.
51:13
Because the thing is I don't want anyone limiting themselves.
51:13
You don't have to look like me, you don't have to be from the same area as me, but if you are an underdog, I will absolutely 100% help you because the reality is that little bit, even though there wasn't like these big, giant monetary things that helped me out, there wasn't someone who's like, "Oh yeah, I'm going to adopt you," or anything like that, there was people along the way.
51:41
And I think back to a critical moment in high school when the Naval Academy was like, "Hey, you qualified for the SAT," because at the time I was just trying to do whatever I can just to skirt by.
51:55
It was like, "But you got to pick this up, this a Naval Academy.
51:55
So we need you to get over 1100."
51:59
And I was like, "There's no way," because I'm struggling in a verbal component and I'm at St.
52:06
Anthony High School in Long Beach and my teacher, Margaret Shook was a new teacher there.
52:13
And I'm taking both junior and senior classes at the same time.
52:21
So I'm in two different English classes.
52:21
And one day my mom was having problems. She was in the hospital.
52:26
I had put her in the hospital again.
52:26
And I had just got the information about the Naval Academy and having to take the SAT over, and my teacher asked me, "Are you okay?"
52:32
And I broke down crying because no one had asked me- Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
52:44
David Rhoiney: If I was doing okay.
52:44
And I broke down crying and I was like, "I don't know how to do this.
52:44
I don't think I'm going to be able to pass."
52:52
And she was like, "Why?"
52:52
Because I was like, "I don't know how to do the verbal component.
52:57
I don't think I can get this up."
52:57
And she tutored me for free on the SAT verbal component because the math and science, I did just fine, taught me how to take the test and what to look for.
53:12
And she's the reason I got into the Naval Academy. She won't take credit.
53:18
I'm still friends with her today on Facebook, whenever I go on there.
53:23
She won't take credit for it but she's the reason, right?
53:23
If she didn't tutor me, I would've never made it.
53:29
I would've never got out of high school.
53:29
If she didn't tutor me in English, I wouldn't have passed both my junior and senior year classes.
53:36
She's the reason why that I got there.
53:36
And then you add Professor Kenter, my advisor at the academy who kept pushing me along, despite me.
53:46
So I tell people, "Pick a goal and screw whatever else anybody else thinks."
53:46
and trust me, I struggle with it.
53:54
I struggle and I hate the imposter syndrome stuff. I really do. But some of it's true.
54:00
I still struggle with it today because I have this perfectionist mentality where I'm constantly searching and trying to improve, trying to improve.
54:06
And you can only churn so much and get so much juice out of a turnip after a while.
54:12
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
54:15
David Rhoiney: And so I tell people, "We're going to figure it.
54:15
I may not know today how to get there but it doesn't mean that we're not going to get there."
54:22
And I just help them along the line.
54:22
I've helped people get into law school.
54:27
I helped a nurse get into CRNA school.
54:27
I've helped people get into engineering schools.
54:35
I've counseled people on what certifications to take if they want to go into cybersecurity.
54:43
Heck, I helped my brother go from being a dietician tech to now he's a network administrator for General Dynamics. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
54:53
David Rhoiney: And I just, left and right, "Hey man, you got to focus.
54:54
Hey man, this is your..."
54:59
And I held him accountable and I would check in.
54:59
He's my older brother and he says that I'm his motivation to keep going.
55:04
He doesn't realize he's the reason why I keep going. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
55:09
David Rhoiney: My mom's gone. My grandmother's gone.
55:09
I'm all he has so I can't fail.
55:12
I've never been able to say failure was ever going to be an option for me so I just stubbornly kept going.
55:21
When people told me they didn't want me there, I stayed.
55:26
What are you going to do? Physically move me.
55:26
I hope you can fight because I grew up fighting.
55:32
And so that's my mentality about things.
55:32
And when it comes down to stuff, I didn't learn all that stuff on purpose.
55:39
I learned it because I was broke or someone told me they wouldn't help me.
55:46
So I learned how to code, because guess what?
55:46
I had to solve a problem, I was a math guy.
55:53
I knew how to do cryptography or whatever and I wanted to design something and I knew how to write a little bit of scripts for math type stuff.
56:02
And I wanted to design an app and then I didn't have any money to design an app because I was spending it because my kid was about to be born.
56:08
So I was like, "Okay, well I guess I'm going to learn how to really code today."
56:11
So then I taught myself web development, Python, JavaScript, and how to go from that design process all the way to the finished product and ideation process, keeping up with design trends, learning all these different tools, whether it’s Wordpress, PHP, Django, Bootstrap, all this stuff to continue going or learning a new Java script, and it was all an effort to try and get to the next step.
56:42
Though I just feel like they were just the key components to completing this checkbox. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
56:52
So as you're speaking, I'm thinking of the sort of Taoism and Buddhist idea and Hindu idea of the wheel of karma.
57:01
And the story about the wheel of karma is it never stops spinning, but if you put good deeds, like you're doing with all the people you're helping, out into the world, it might not come back to you from those people but it comes back to you because it ultimately defines who you are as a person.
57:25
And it sounds to me like you're an excellent person and that kind of stuff is just so cool to me.
57:32
But then I wonder and worry about... So you're extraordinary.
57:43
Let's just put it on the table. You're very smart. You're very driven.
57:49
You are not afraid to ask questions.
57:49
You'll call bullshit on people. Okay.
57:49
So that alone puts you in, I don't know, the upper half of 1% on people's personalities profiles.
57:57
Like with your blog, how do you see getting people who don't have that kind of drive, that don't have that kind of grit getting the financial education?
58:16
Because I know that's your crusade.
58:16
You want to make sure that everybody, no matter who they are, has a financial education. What do you think?
58:26
David Rhoiney: So my mom was brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
58:28
And I pointed this out the other day, she was born in '61, the Civil Rights Act was signed in '64.
58:38
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
58:42
David Rhoiney: If my mom was born today or born when I was born, she'd probably be a doctor because medicines were better and she would've been able to control her bipolar, but she didn't get the opportunity.
58:51
But my mom was brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
58:57
And the thing that I learned from her was you have to know how people learn and what motivates them.
59:03
So when I go to teach someone something, I try and figure out what makes them tick.
59:12
So if I'm talking to one of my patients and I'm trying to teach them what I'm going to do, I use an analogy for people who, if they fit the profile of being very handy, like, "Hey, if you put a hole in your wall at home, how are you going to fix it?"
59:26
And I ask them to tell me how they're going to fix it.
59:32
And I go, "I do the same thing, man.
59:32
And this is how I do it."
59:35
And I connect the dots, that connection and that ability to sort of draw them in is how I teach people how to learn about these things.
59:42
So on the blog, man, I share all the stuff that I've done wrong.
59:52
I screwed my credit up big time with credit cards.
59:59
Am I scared of credit cards now?
59:59
No, they are just a freaking tool.
59:59
Same thing with budgets, right?
1:00:05
The budget is good when you have no idea what to do at your money and you're trying to make ends meet and you don't have enough wiggle room, so you got to make sure it's a delicate dance.
1:00:15
So I didn't tell people, "You don't have to use these freaking tools all the damn time.
1:00:15
They're like the training wheels."
1:00:22
But I try and level with people and I try and teach people.
1:00:28
Everyone says they may not be motivated.
1:00:28
I think that's a hundred percent bullshit, Because the person who may not be motivated about work, might be very motivated about finding women or, on the other hand, finding men.
1:00:40
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
1:00:42
David Rhoiney: Or they might be like, and we all know this person, they might be not motivated to do anything but if you put a computer in front of them or a video game, they beat the crap out of you and what people haven't realized is they're learning and they're motivated by different things.
1:01:02
When you play a video game, think about the amount of self-signaling and neuro signals that must take place in order for you to rapidly make decisions.
1:01:12
Playing a video game is a bunch of quick decision making, right?
1:01:12
So why aren't you teaching them in a manner and relating to them in a manner that fits their skillset, right?
1:01:25
There's a reason why people are very good at video games and a reason why they're not, right?
1:01:29
I, as a kid, didn't get a chance to really play video games because my brother was so effing good that you didn't have one controller and he couldn't lose.
1:01:40
And he had enormous focus.
1:01:40
So me being a former cybersecurity guy and cryptologist, I was like, "Oh dude, you're perfect for this.
1:01:48
You're absolutely perfect."
1:01:48
And it took me knocking him over the head, "Hey man, just keep going." He is frustrated. "You're going to pass. Keep going, keep going."
1:01:57
And then he gets around his first networking job, which he didn't know, I'm the one who applied for him for the job and I told him what salary to put.
1:02:03
He was like, "Nah, I couldn't get that."
1:02:11
I was like, "No, you're going to get it. Trust me."
1:02:11
I used to advise on these things.
1:02:15
And then now he's like, "I fucking love networking."
1:02:15
I was like, "I fucking told you because the way you think about things..."
1:02:21
He loves to play RPGs, role playing games, like Final Fantasy, that whole thing is one neuro networking decision makers. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yep.
1:02:35
David Rhoiney: I was like, "That's all networking is, man, literally, all of this.
1:02:37
You have to figure out how to route things to get it to the appropriate area in an optimized way. That's it.
1:02:44
And that's the whole thing about playing these video games."
1:02:51
And he finally picked up on it. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
1:02:53
And what I love about your approach, you just said it, everybody's motivated about something.
1:03:00
And if you take the time, like you do, to figure out what that something is and then are willing to change the way you are going to be helping that person or teaching that person, that's going to be the right fit.
1:03:16
And the school is like the synthesis school.
1:03:16
I've had people on the podcast who are really revolutionizing education for kids because they're completely doing it like you're suggesting, quick decision making and they're often wrong, but the kids can't get enough of this. They love it.
1:03:36
And so I was fascinated because when was the last time you talked to a 10 year old who's really happy to go to school?
1:03:42
I mean, honestly the old system, I don't think works as well as these new ones coming down.
1:03:48
So I love the fact that that's the way you do that. So you're just one guy. How does that scale?
1:03:55
Do you think could this be a financial center, a learning center where you would kind of handpick people who kind of operate and think like you so that maybe it scales a little bit more?
1:04:11
Or are you happy doing just the newsletter?
1:04:17
David Rhoiney: I'm not happy just doing the newsletter.
1:04:20
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I didn't think so.
1:04:22
David Rhoiney: I treat that blog as like a journal, right?
1:04:26
I'm just going to put everything I learned about finance here.
1:04:33
If you read it, you read it. If you don't, you don't.
1:04:33
I don't ever plan to monetize it, which is the reason why I moved to stop focusing on development, web development, because I spent too much time trying to debug and all that stuff.
1:04:43
And I moved it over to Substack because of that.
1:04:48
I don't even want to think about it.
1:04:48
I'll just put my thoughts there.
1:04:54
And I set a lofty goal of creating $20 million in net worth for my family.
1:04:54
It's not even for all of it's for us, only five of it's for us.
1:05:03
The rest of the 15 is for me to create a foundation for my kids to carry on, $5 million for my future grandkids and great grandkids that will hopefully snowball enough that I can make sure my family never goes back to being poor.
1:05:24
And then $5 million as seed where I can create an infrastructure and a system that can take someone from being homeless to being an engineer, doctor, lawyer, and have zero money on that.
1:05:37
The minute they step in, get all the resources and help that they need, and bring them out on the other end, however long it takes, to their professional life and they not owe anything. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
1:05:50
David Rhoiney: Just need to work.
1:05:50
And I don't know how it's going to get done.
1:05:52
I don't know if I ever will get it done.
1:05:52
But the only thing that I know that I need to do is I need to make as enough money as possible that I can feed that.
1:06:07
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Listen, I'm a big believer in goals.
1:06:11
Other people, they think that they would rather have sort of process these...
1:06:11
Well, Scott Adams, again, he says goals, you're limiting yourself. I don't agree.
1:06:17
When I was 29, I wrote out 90 goals and I kept referring back to them and guess what?
1:06:24
Like 95% of them I've done.
1:06:31
And I think that they're good lodestars.
1:06:31
And you said something that really I believe passionately and people don't say it enough because they don't think this way.
1:06:37
You said, "This is my goal with the 20 million, 5 million here, 5 million here, 5 million here."
1:06:49
And then you said, "I have no idea how I'm going to get there." Same with me.
1:06:49
When I decided to write my first book, I was on a walk and I just moved to the New York area.
1:07:03
And I was thinking, "Well, I know so much shit about this. What do I need?
1:07:08
Well, I guess I need to be an expert."
1:07:08
And back in the dark days of 1991 or '2, the way you became an expert was writing a book.
1:07:16
And so I came home and announced to my wife, "I'm writing a book."
1:07:21
She tends to be a little more practical than me. And she goes, "Oh, okay.
1:07:27
What's it going to be about?"
1:07:27
And I said, "About cloning, active money managers."
1:07:27
And she's like, "Oh, so the work you're doing?" And I went, "Yeah."
1:07:33
"Well, you do know that publishers have to publish it?"
1:07:39
And I'm like, "Of course, of course they do."
1:07:39
And I said, "I'm going to go this weekend.
1:07:46
I'm going to get a book on all the publishers, because back then it was all regular letters."
1:07:51
And so I literally sent query letters to about a hundred publishers.
1:07:58
And all the first ones I got were rejections.
1:07:58
Some were humorous, some were quite rude, and my wife is just like, "I think you better prepare yourself for this idea that no one's going to publish your book."
1:08:17
And I went, "Yes, they will." "Why?"
1:08:17
"Well, because it's interesting.
1:08:22
There's going to be one publisher who thinks that it's good."
1:08:22
And so anyway, long story short, got two, got an offer from McGraw Hill for nothing.
1:08:29
"We'll pay you $5,000 to do this long, long book.
1:08:36
And that's pretty much all you're ever going to see.
1:08:36
So sound like a good deal to you?"
1:08:41
And I was like, "Yeah, it does sound like a good deal to me because I get the book." David Rhoiney: Yeah.
1:08:48
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And so I love the concept of I think that people like you and people like me succeed because we don't shut down options.
1:09:02
I love your saying, "This is what I want to happen.
1:09:02
Don't know how it's going to happen right now."
1:09:07
That right there alone is a gift because I've worked with a lot of people who literally if there is not a step by step plan about how they're going to get to the place, and by the way, I'm not knocking that, some people work better that way.
1:09:24
But by leaving the goal where it is, your attention ultimately falls and you can say it's a mystic way or you can say it's the reticular activating system. You can talk to anybody.
1:09:39
But the fact is you are reading things now and doing things now because that goal is there.
1:09:48
And so suddenly something you wouldn't have read, gets read, some guy you might not have talked to, you talk to him.
1:09:55
And I have found that that's how my career went, by just being ambitious, yes, but also being totally open to how it might happen.
1:10:13
And I wonder if that is something, and it sounds you think it is, that is something that you can teach another person who doesn't think like that? What do you think?
1:10:26
David Rhoiney: So one, I don't ascribe to the belief that people can't learn anything.
1:10:28
Yes, I've done some stuff that technically is in the 1% of things.
1:10:35
But the reality is I still view myself as just a normal guy who just works his ass off.
1:10:43
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right.
1:10:46
David Rhoiney: No, I'm being that serious.
1:10:47
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, I know you are.
1:10:49
David Rhoiney: I wake up at 5:00 AM.
1:10:50
What's to stop you from waking up at 5:00 AM, right?
1:10:55
I go work out on a Peloton.
1:10:55
Now you don't have to work out on a Peloton. You could go run.
1:11:00
But I just got the Peloton because I never buy myself anything.
1:11:00
And I was like, "Well, fuck it.
1:11:04
I'm going to finally, I'm a surgeon.
1:11:04
I'm going to go buy myself.
1:11:04
I just did 14 months and I was deployed. I'm going to go do this.
1:11:09
I'm going to fucking buy this because I deserve it."
1:11:13
And then afterwards, I was like, "Well, shit, did I really need it?"
1:11:13
But I love working out on it.
1:11:18
The reality is, is people like the, and I get very, very uptight about this.
1:11:18
Do not put limits on what I can accomplish.
1:11:25
The minute you put limits on what I can accomplish.
1:11:25
And that was a big source of confusion and frustration for me.
1:11:31
And I was lucky enough that I had a business coach that helped me through that, Coach Sarah from Carson, who's excellent.
1:11:38
And she was like, "Why the hell do you keep trying to fit in when you were designed to fit out?"
1:11:51
And I was like, "What do you mean?"
1:11:51
She was like, "Well, you clearly aren't just a surgeon.
1:11:51
Why do you keep trying to fit into every other person's definition of being a surgeon?"
1:11:57
I was like, "Well, I don't know."
1:12:03
Ever since she said that, I was like, "Well, I'm designed to fit out."
1:12:10
I can go teach anyone how to do anything, whether it's math, chemistry, medicine, engineering.
1:12:21
If I watch a video or if I read something, I can go apply that information.
1:12:26
People can do that too, because which I learned the term from Barry Ritholtz is autodidact.
1:12:37
You just have to find what you're motivated by.
1:12:37
When the thing that I'm good at and that I really love, and my brother's like, "Yeah, you're not doing shit unless it's hard."
1:12:43
I will literally because I don't like making a lot of decisions.
1:12:50
And so, I only like to exercise my brain on very, very hard problems.
1:12:56
If you think about the stuff that I've tackled.
1:13:02
Cryptology, hard problem.
1:13:02
You're talking about asymmetric, symmetric, cryptography.
1:13:02
Going from 128 to 256, whether or not quantum computing is going to be able to brute force attack.
1:13:14
Is our cryptologic systems even going to be secure at this point?
1:13:14
And you're talking about cybersecurity and whether or not that two factor authentication is actually something that's secure versus. Those are hard problems.
1:13:23
I do a lot of mental gymnastics trying to.
1:13:23
And then you talk about doing robotics.
1:13:30
Robotics is at the forefront of medicine. Intuitive is like thing.
1:13:35
And I just got it right away.
1:13:35
It makes complete sense to me to do robotics because one, ergonomically, it feels better.
1:13:41
And then, I can really get, there's a lot of cool technology.
1:13:46
Then you talk about the next hard problem.
1:13:46
Financial literacy in this country is a hard fucking problem.
1:13:52
If it wasn't, we wouldn't fucking have the problem.
1:13:52
Then, I focus on that because I'm like, " You know what?
1:13:59
If I was financially literate."
1:13:59
And I wrote an article about this.
1:14:04
I was like, "If I was financially.
1:14:04
If someone would've just taught me about money, I probably would've never went and played basketball."
1:14:09
Because technically, I personally had zero debt.
1:14:17
What's to stop me and my brain from saying, "Well, I can go do this apprenticeship program and be an electrician, make $70,000 for four years.
1:14:23
And then go on and make $200, 000 being my own boss and running my own business.
1:14:33
And starting from a place of zero at the age of 18"?
1:14:41
I'm like, "That sounds pretty fucking cool."
1:14:41
And no one told me and I got mad.
1:14:47
But that's part of the financial literacy thing.
1:14:47
That's trying to be set into these bounds.
1:14:47
Because when I looked at the model of how to succeed in my neighborhood, I saw basketball, football, track. Nothing else.
1:15:00
And then the plan was, go play basketball, make it overseas to play basketball and send money back. And you're done.
1:15:08
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right. How do you see?
1:15:12
I love on Twitter, you're very happy to get in people's face about things.
1:15:21
And I was reading an exchange from you about, which I don't believe at all.
1:15:29
Apparently somebody had tweeted that people choose poverty and I read that.
1:15:29
I'm like, "This is the biggest pile of crap I've ever read in my life."
1:15:36
But you did it differently. You went right at them.
1:15:43
Tell us about that a little.
1:15:43
David Rhoiney: Oh, because there's no reason to...
1:15:45
This is fucking Twitter. It's social media.
1:15:45
The whole goal is to interact.
1:15:54
So I'm not going to subtweet you.
1:15:54
I'm not going to do any of that.
1:15:54
I'm going to come right at you and say, "I think it's bullshit.
1:15:58
Because you saying that is disrespectful to every generation that came before us.
1:16:04
Just because you grew up in a great situation and you grew up with means and you grew up having this, does not mean that the person who is impoverished today had the same fucking opportunities."
1:16:17
And I brought up the point.
1:16:17
I was like, "My mom was born in 1961.
1:16:22
The Civil Rights Act was signed in '64.
1:16:22
She was born and raised in Compton in Los Angeles, California during the Watts Riots, all this.
1:16:30
Do you honestly fucking think she had an opportunity?"
1:16:36
And then you combine the fact that she was bipolar and she had to be on lithium carbonate, which today, we try never to prescribe.
1:16:41
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right. Yeah.
1:16:45
David Rhoiney: I'm like this system was never set up for her to succeed and she was smarter than fucking me.
1:16:54
Are you going to say that?
1:16:54
That's a slap in my mom's face.
1:16:54
And then it's a slap in my grandmother's face, who left Texas at the age of 13 to start having babies. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Wow.
1:17:03
David Rhoiney: Didn't finish.
1:17:03
And so, those are things that just get me fired up.
1:17:04
And it's worse when I see it come from people who are supposedly successful.
1:17:10
And what it is, is they lose track of reality.
1:17:10
The reality is it's like even me. Now, I'm here.
1:17:17
If you don't know me, you would think I'm just this privileged person.
1:17:25
I try never to do that way.
1:17:25
And I have managed to gain some things, but people are so afraid of telling someone else that they think they're talking bullshit.
1:17:36
And I'm not afraid of that. I have no... I'm not...
1:17:36
What are you going to do to me? I'm a surgeon.
1:17:41
You can't take that away from me.
1:17:41
You can't take away any of the stuff I accomplished.
1:17:46
What are you going to do to me?
1:17:46
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love it. I love it.
1:17:49
And I think it serves as just a super example about A, the need for, I love the fact that you'll get after people.
1:17:58
I love the fact that you also bring this passion to the need for financial literacy.
1:18:03
And it's something that I have tried to help and support for years and years and years.
1:18:11
And it just seems to me like you're Sisyphus pushing the ball up the hill.
1:18:18
And I personally have great hopes for this new, what I'm calling The Great Reshuffle, where there are tools finally available to teach younger kids especially, because if you get them when they still love learning, you can teach them a million different things.
1:18:44
And this could be one of them. And it could be a game.
1:18:50
It could be a build your own business.
1:18:50
And one of the things that I believe very deeply is that the old system of education I think is just ossified.
1:19:00
It was made for a different era.
1:19:07
It was made for an era where people were literally, the boss wanted you to get used to being it in the same place for eight hours, doing something boring.
1:19:20
And voila, look at how we design schools.
1:19:20
And we don't live there anymore.
1:19:20
And so, I think that people like you, others like Annie Duke, who's got a foundation for financial literacy.
1:19:39
I just, I'm still looking for that.
1:19:39
I like to see if can something scale?
1:19:39
And if it can scale, then I'm really interested in it.
1:19:50
But I'm also super interested, you never know.
1:19:57
You've spent the time telling me about all these incredible people in your life and you said, "If it hadn't been for her, this one specific person, your entire life would've been different."
1:20:11
And so, I use that to try, when I'm coaching people, it's like, you never know, man.
1:20:11
You just never know, just take that extra step.
1:20:17
Ask that person, "Hey, do you need help?" And it's not hard to do.
1:20:26
I just think that guys like you doing this, man, it just, the more this seeps in to the collective unconscious.
1:20:35
And the case you make is perfect it.
1:20:45
How are you supposed to ever make a good choice, if you don't know what the metrics are in terms of how to make that choice?
1:20:50
And so, I love the fact that you're doing the letter.
1:20:57
And I know your goal, which I think is cool.
1:20:57
What's next though, for you?
1:21:03
Is this going to go bigger?
1:21:03
Are you going to maybe do media? What do you think?
1:21:11
David Rhoiney: Honestly, I'm still trying to figure it out.
1:21:17
You ever watch Jurassic World? Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
1:21:19
David Rhoiney: There's a scene in there where I think it's Chris Pine is his name.
1:21:20
I can't remember the actor.
1:21:27
But he looks at just after Indominus Rex escapes the paddock.
1:21:27
And he looks, and he goes, "You have to contain that because it's seen the world for the first time and it doesn't know where it's supposed to be in the ecosystem."
1:21:44
That's how I fucking feel.
1:21:48
Jim O'Shaughnessy: That's perfect.
1:21:49
David Rhoiney: Because now, I walk into rooms and I'm like, "I may belong here."
1:21:53
And then I go to the next room.
1:21:53
I go, "I may belong here too."
1:22:01
I got an opportunity to go speak to some at the Carson Excell Conference.
1:22:04
They asked me to come out and share my story with some very high net worth individuals, who own businesses, are very successful.
1:22:18
And afterwards, I was so fucking motivated.
1:22:18
And I told them on stage.
1:22:18
I was like, "I'm looking around.
1:22:26
I'm the only one I see who looks like me."
1:22:26
I'm like, "I'm going to fucking be in that seat the next time I'm here.
1:22:30
I want to be where you are.
1:22:30
I don't know how I'm going to get there, but I'm going to be in that seat."
1:22:36
And I have literally no clue what I'm going to do. I don't know.
1:22:41
And I've thought about this and Barry Ritholtz, who is a phenomenal person will [crosstalk] and humor me. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. Yeah.
1:22:49
Barry is a good friend of mine and they're one of our largest clients.
1:22:53
David Rhoiney: And he would say, "You should really think about venture capital."
1:22:55
Then I started looking into it and I don't fit. I don't. I don't come from.
1:23:02
I learned about the entire ecosystem.
1:23:02
I do what I do with any other thing.
1:23:10
I go, "I'm going to learn everything I can."
1:23:10
I went and consumed as many books as possible.
1:23:15
Venture Deals by Brad Feld, Angel by Jason Calacanis.
1:23:20
I listen to everything, I read everything.
1:23:20
And I just consume and consume and consume.
1:23:26
And there's this common, prevalent thing that, if you don't come from means, that you're not making it into that.
1:23:30
Then I'm like, "Well, I don't know if that's for me."
1:23:36
But I'm like, "It seemed pretty fucking cool though."
1:23:36
Because I get to help people.
1:23:42
That's something that scales.
1:23:42
The reason why I want to be a hospital CEO someday is because, as a surgeon, I can affect thousands.
1:23:49
As a hospital CEO of the right healthcare system, I can affect millions.
1:23:54
And if the right person's in the right position and can architect the right system, that has long standing ramifications.
1:24:01
In regards to your point about financial literacy, the reason why we don't have a great solution is because all of them fucking suck the way our system works.
1:24:13
Trying to do a bottom up approach where, "Hey, I'm going to give you this app."
1:24:19
Well, that requires buy-in from the other person.
1:24:19
And the only time you're going to get buy-in from someone where it is like, you're like, "Oh, well, I need to learn and become financial literate."
1:24:32
Well, it has to have a negative event to start for you to be motivated in order to even go looking for it.
1:24:36
Because if you don't have that negative event, they're just like, "Fuck it. I'm doing well." Ignorance is bliss.
1:24:41
As opposed to hacking the correct system, the system that we have currently.
1:24:46
I wrote something, because someone had asked me about like, "Hey what are alternate ways that?"
1:24:51
I was like, "Look, how about this?
1:24:51
How about we, instead of burdening teachers with debt, we go, 'Hey, you know what? We'll pay.
1:25:02
We'll give you a higher salary.
1:25:02
We'll pay for your teaching degree.
1:25:06
But as a requirement, you have to teach financial literacy an hour a day'"?
1:25:12
Because the bulk of kids spend of their time during a year is going to be with their teacher at least eight hours a day.
1:25:17
That hacks the current system.
1:25:17
If you can't redesign the system, then you have to hack the current system.
1:25:25
Who has the biggest contact time?
1:25:25
Because when the kids go home with parents and it's after work, after school, they want to go play.
1:25:35
They got to get dinner, baths, and they go to sleep and then do it all over again.
1:25:39
I'm like the bulk of time their formative years is spent with a teacher. Well, guess what?
1:25:44
How do we incentivize them to teach?
1:25:44
Or you say, "Hey, I'm going to partner with the school."
1:25:50
Because they did it with coding. You remember that? An hour code a day? The coding initiative.
1:25:56
Why didn't we do that with financial literacy?
1:25:56
And I'm not talking about the fucking stock market game.
1:26:02
I'm talking about like legitimate stuff.
1:26:02
Hey, I teach my three year old how to negotiate.
1:26:09
She's a very fucking good negotiator. Because guess what?
1:26:09
She [inaudible] three cookies out of me.
1:26:13
And I'm like, "I started with one and now we're at three."
1:26:18
But I teach my kids these things.
1:26:18
It's not necessarily about how to balance a checkbook. Because guess what?
1:26:23
That shit doesn't occur anymore.
1:26:23
It's about, "Hey, here's the concept." I teach my kids.
1:26:30
I go, "Hey the concept is keep as much of your own money as possible.
1:26:36
Use other people's money whenever you can." What do my kids do?
1:26:36
They translate that into, I can even bring my daughter in here and she'll tell you, "Yeah.
1:26:43
You know, if I get Christmas money, it goes my bank account."
1:26:46
"Well, who buys your toys?" "Everyone else."
1:26:50
Jim O'Shaughnessy: That's a very shrewd move.
1:26:54
David Rhoiney: That's how it works. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. I love it.
1:26:55
David Rhoiney: That's how it works.
1:26:55
And that's how I teach, that's what motivates them.
1:27:00
"Hey, I will do this if you do this.
1:27:00
I don't like your plan, Dada." That's what they say. "I don't like your plan. Here's my point."
1:27:08
That's their counter offer.
1:27:13
And they don't realize I'm even teaching them that.
1:27:13
When I was learning to do real estate valuations, because I really wanted to learn how to be a real estate investor and think through there.
1:27:22
Every house I'm looking at is I'm judging the neighborhood, the zoning, how to figure out how the prices and how the rents work.
1:27:26
Well, she was eight at the time.
1:27:26
I'm teaching her the same exact thing.
1:27:33
Now, if I drive in a car with her and I go, "Hey, is that a good business to buy?"
1:27:38
She goes, "Nah, I don't think so. Because guess what?
1:27:38
It's a restaurant and a restaurant can have downtime. The margins are bad."
1:27:44
And she can rattle all this stuff off and she didn't even realize I was doing it.
1:27:50
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Interesting. That is amazing.
1:27:52
Well, I mean, I could talk to you for hours.
1:27:52
We're already well over time.
1:27:58
I got to have you back on because there's some other stuff that I didn't even get to.
1:28:04
One of the things that we ask at the end of the podcast of all our guests is, so we're going to wave a wand and we're make you emperor of the world.
1:28:12
You can't kill anybody and you can't put anybody in a reeducation camp.
1:28:18
But what you can do, you've seen the movie Inception, right? Okay.
1:28:24
What you can do is you have the magic whispering ability and everybody, and I mean everybody in the world, old people, young people, people not in America, people all over the world are going to get incepted by two things.
1:28:38
And they're going to wake up the next morning and they're going to say, "I got a really great idea."
1:28:48
And it's your idea for what do you think would make the world [crosstalk] much better?
1:28:53
David Rhoiney: I get two things? Two things?
1:28:56
Jim O'Shaughnessy: You get two.
1:28:56
David Rhoiney: The first thing is I would put the thought and prevailing belief, "I am no better than the person next to me." That's the first one.
1:29:00
The second one is, "I have to earn everything." And that's it.
1:29:09
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love it.
1:29:14
[crosstalk] David Rhoiney: Because natural selection will start and evolution will push people into the right areas that they need to be in.
1:29:22
And people would be motivated.
1:29:22
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love both of those.
1:29:25
There's the other saying, "No one's coming to save you, so you got to save yourself."
1:29:32
And those are the people who make it.
1:29:32
I mean like you, your story is just incredible.
1:29:39
But there are other people too.
1:29:39
And so, seeing you as an inspiration, maybe that's all they need.
1:29:39
One of the most popular football movies is about where two of my kids went to Notre Dame. And it's called Rudy.
1:29:53
I don't know if you've ever seen Rudy.
1:29:53
David Rhoiney: I've seen Rudy 1,00 times. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Okay. Okay. I love Rudy. I love Rudy.
1:29:57
Because essentially it's the same message.
1:29:57
It's like this kid, who's five foot nothing, weighs a buck nothing.
1:30:05
And he just, his determination got him where it got him. And it just is so.
1:30:13
People can be inspired and that's what you're doing.
1:30:20
And so I applaud your effort.
1:30:20
The final thing that I will add here is this whole NFT thing was just this virtuous circle.
1:30:28
You got picked as my guest, I started looking into you.
1:30:36
And I'm like, "Holy shit.
1:30:36
How have I not paid more attention to this guy?"
1:30:36
But I looked into their software company.
1:30:43
They're doing great things.
1:30:43
The final bid was nine Ethereum, which at that time was $40,000.
1:30:49
And what I'd said to my team was, "We're going to give it all to charity and you guys get to pick the charity."
1:30:57
And so, one of my guys lives in Romania and he was like, "I want to pick this charity."
1:31:02
And as you know, Romania was communist and then got free.
1:31:10
And during that time, the communist authorities, basically either destroyed or did not keep up these incredible monuments to Romanian history.
1:31:16
And so, it's a bunch of kids who volunteer and they go and literally rebuild this stuff.
1:31:25
And it just so happened that amount of money was exactly what they needed to finish out their thing. David Rhoiney: Wow. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
1:31:36
I mean, it's so cool to me to see this.
1:31:36
And when Dinesh got in touch with me about you, I was just like, "Oh man, this is going to be so much fun."
1:31:45
This is so cool because people will see. Look at that, man.
1:31:52
It's just like, look at all the good shit that came out of that.
1:31:59
And so listen, I don't even have to wish you well.
1:31:59
I know, David, that you are going to do well.
1:32:09
And I want to have you back on and soon.
1:32:09
David Rhoiney: I would love to be back on.