0:02
Hi, I'm Jim O'Shaughnessy and welcome to Infinite Loops.
Search this video
0:02
Sometimes we get caught up in what feel like infinite loops when trying to figure things out.
0:07
Markets go up and down, research is presented and then refuted, and we find ourselves right back where we started.
0:13
The goal of this podcast is to learn how we can reset our thinking on issues that hopefully leaves us with a better understanding as to why we think the way we think and how we might be able to change that to avoid going in infinite loops of thought.
0:36
We hope to offer our listeners a fresh perspective on a variety of issues and look at them through a multifaceted lens — including history, philosophy, art, science, linguistics, and yes, also through quantitative analysis.
0:49
And through these discussions help you not only become a better investor, but also become a more nuanced thinker.
0:56
With each episode we hope to bring you along with us as we learn together.
1:02
Thanks for joining us, now please enjoy this episode of Infinite Loops.
1:11
Disclaimer: Jim O'Shaughnessy is chairman and Co-Chief Investment Officer of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management, where Jamie Catherwood is an associate.
1:17
All opinions expressed by Jim, Jamie and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management.
1:26
This podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions.
1:31
Clients of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.
1:39
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Well hello everyone.
1:39
It's Jim O'Shaughnessy with another episode of Infinite Loops.
1:45
Today I am joined by somebody who I've wanted to have on this podcast for quite some time.
1:52
I've followed him for a while.
1:52
His name is Thomas J Bevan.
1:56
He is the proprietor of the Soaring 20s social club as well as the author of a wonderful Substack that I love called The Commonplace. Welcome Thomas.
2:10
Thomas Bevan: Thanks for having me, Jim.
2:11
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So I'm going to jump right in media res here, and then we're going to get to the beginnings and all that kind of stuff.
2:15
But I want to quote from what just grabbed me.
2:18
And I said, not only do I have to subscribe, I really need to read everything this guy writes.
2:24
And the title of your piece was Avoid the Middle Ground.
2:30
You said it's bland, boring, and yet often dangerous.
2:30
Portmantos, infotainment, docudramas watched by flexitarian workaholics.
2:38
The middle is multitasking and smart phone side hustles that kill leisure time. Bam! I love that.
2:51
Thomas Bevan: There it is. Jim O'Shaughnessy: So.
2:53
Talk to me a little bit about how this piece came to be.
2:56
Because we're going to talk about your piece you wrote about starting a common place.
3:00
Which as you might know, I believe in quite a bit. But how...
3:00
This piece, especially, just grabbed me and I loved it.
3:05
Because everyone writes with weasel words today. Right?
3:10
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
3:11
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And...
3:12
They assume that their audience is an idiot. And so. Thomas Bevan: Exactly. Yeah.
3:15
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Here is what I am saying.
3:15
Here is what I am saying. Here is what I said. Go for it. Thomas Bevan: But, yeah. That's just it. I mean.
3:21
You end up, just with anything, you end up with what you deserve, pretty much, in life eventually.
3:25
And I just think if you take that middle path that's just what you're going to end up with.
3:30
Which, I guess for you as an individual, that might be fine.
3:34
But if everyone does that, then collectively everyone ends up stuck in the middle. And, yeah.
3:38
Life just becomes that exact boring list of things I said in the paragraph there. So, yeah.
3:43
Whatever you're going to do, do it either one way or other.
3:47
Either try and speak to peoples sort of higher selves or if you're going to be stupid, be completely stupid.
3:53
If that'd the road you're going to take, then take that road fully. Yeah.
3:58
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Fully commit. Right? Thomas Bevan: Yeah. Yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: So.
4:01
One of my theories is that the people who really make bank on Twitter are what I would call mid wits. And they...
4:05
And by the way, I'm not going to name anybody.
4:05
But basically, they have the largest total addressable market. Right? And I get it.
4:11
And I've always known that what I do, especially my career on the investing side and all the other crazy stuff I do, I have a really tiny audience that is self-selected.
4:21
I do very little to promote this.
4:28
I don't charge anything for it.
4:28
It's actually an indulgent luxury for me to be able to do this, to talk to smart people like yourself.
4:33
Was there something that...
4:33
Were you out and about flaneuring and you saw something or thought of something that made you think, god damn it, I'm going to go home and I'm going to really write this out?
4:45
Thomas Bevan: I don't know because...
4:45
I guess I have to be honest, and this kind of goes with the idea of trying to avoid the middle, I try not to think things out.
4:50
What I try and do or what I end up doing is I have a ridiculously tight deadline, realize.
4:55
I'm like oh shit I got three hours to get this done before it goes out, then just do something and... yeah.
5:00
That's how it ends up being.
5:00
So I guess that kind of played on my mind for a while that one.
5:04
Because if ever you're on Twitter, you've got that bell curve meme that you see everywhere.
5:09
Which I think is just a universal law rather than a meme. And... yeah.
5:14
And I just realize that...
5:14
Why just have a picture when you can just bang on about it for thousands of words?
5:18
So, I thought here's the gap. That's what I'll do.
5:23
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love it. I love it.
5:24
It made me fully commit to you, my friend.
5:24
Let's talk a little bit about the whole idea of a commonplace.
5:29
This is something that I am incredibly in favor of.
5:35
I mean, if we panned the camera you would see that my wife really, sometimes, despises me.
5:36
Because I'm sitting in the dining room, rather, of my house right now.
5:36
I'm not at my office because we've gone from kind of a work from anywhere.
5:37
But I'm hugely believe in what you call a common place journal habit.
5:38
Your advice, that I love also, read veraciously and start a common place.
5:43
The journaling habit can transform you. Explain.
5:48
Thomas Bevan: Well, yeah.
5:48
I just think, at least for me anyway, if you have just thoughts stuck in your head they just effectively don't exist.
5:55
They will, as is the name of the podcast, just loop forever. Not doing anything.
5:55
And there's something to do with the actual process of starting to write things down.
6:00
Either to lap your own thoughts or to generate thoughts, things that you discover from books. And, yeah.
6:11
From that, you can come to process of starting to get to know yourself and what you actually think.
6:15
And because if you're doing a common place context, there's no audience component.
6:20
That kind of begins to generate in a very low pressure situation.
6:20
The first few steps towards becoming a writer. So.
6:25
I think if anyone is starting out or has an interest, that's got to be the first step towards this. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. I totally agree.
6:32
And a lot people have asked me, so how do I start this? What's the... Give me the list.
6:35
And I said there is no list. There is... Just start. You just start writing.
6:39
And as you just pointed out, you're only writing for yourself initially. So. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
6:44
Jim O'Shaughnessy: One of the things that I love about it and why I do it so much is because I think that writing your thoughts out makes you, pretty quickly, understand whether you know what the fuck you're talking about or not. Right?
6:56
And so sometimes ill be, well I think this.
7:02
And then I'll start writing it and I'll like oo, I don't think this.
7:02
Do you find that occurs with you as well?
7:06
Thomas Bevan: I've got this really bad habit of I've learned how to develop this style sort of sound on the surface like I know what I'm talking about.
7:12
But when you actually really closely, I just don't at all.
7:16
So that's quite dangerous.
7:16
That's a quite dangerous trap just being able to...
7:19
yeah, pontificate and do all of that. But... yeah.
7:19
Like I said, it's only when somethings outside of your head that it becomes real.
7:23
And it's only, yeah, through that that you'll actually be able to sort of look back on yourself or be able to see yourself in a more detached viewpoint.
7:32
And then that's when you can see, yeah, if you're full of shit or not.
7:36
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So one of my heroes is Richard Feynman, the physicist, and he says be careful not to be fooled because you are the easiest person to fool yourself. Thomas Bevan: Exactly. Yeah.
7:46
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And so, I...
7:47
We're very simpatico on that because we are also, and you wrote a piece on this, we are also unreliable narrators. Right?
7:54
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
7:55
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Especially where memory is concerned, in my opinion.
7:57
One of the reasons I cherish having all of these is it's very...
7:57
it's a wonderful tonic to be called a liar in your own handwriting.
8:03
One of the things that I think are human OS operating system as a kindness is that it automatically updates and rewrites, overwrites things that we think are memories.
8:23
But actually if we are thinking about them now, it fills in to be consistent with what we think now.
8:28
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
8:31
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So for example, Kitty Hawk, the Wright Brothers. Right?
8:32
People were crazy excited about that. Right? No.
8:37
It wasn't even a big deal in the news.
8:37
It was like oh, these guys are playing with toys.
8:41
So one of the things that you say is that, almost out of necessity, any discussion, advice on writing is going to be false.
8:50
And any narrative of any kind, of any tense, is a study in human nature. I love that line.
8:56
So talk to me about that a little bit about that particular piece.
9:00
Because one other thing that I think fits in really well, you wrote, let the audience add up- It's a quote, I think.
9:04
Let the audience add up two plus two, they'll love you.
9:08
And I immediately think of Orwell in 1984 two plus two equals five. Right?
9:13
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
9:14
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So that rung incredibly true to me. Thoughts please.
9:17
Thomas Bevan: Well, yeah.
9:18
I guess I'm more on the idea of being an unreliable narrator just in life.
9:23
That is the main beauty of the commonplace as a thing to do as a system.
9:23
Which is why I started doing them, personally.
9:29
Because, yeah, you just find you don't... Yeah.
9:29
You might read all these books but you can very easily get into the habit of a surface skim and then you just forget.
9:37
And if you forget, what's the point?
9:37
And like you said, because we seem to be these... Yeah.
9:38
I suppose if you build up any sort of intelligence, sadly, you seem to use that intelligence against yourself.
9:43
And you just become this really intricate self-rationalizing machine.
9:48
Which is probably an inevitable human thing.
9:54
And I suppose the only way out is that sort of Socratic way of realizing that.
9:54
I think that's probably all you can do is if you become aware of that and that's enough of a...
9:59
I suppose a mitigation to, yeah, so you can at least live with yourself in that way.
10:03
Because you know you are full of shit, you know your mind will always change.
10:06
And yes, you're not going to get caught up in the...
10:11
always having one consistent set which never change. And, yeah. That's...
10:15
I mean, as the world change and details change, ultimately, that's death. Isn't it?
10:19
There's nothing worse than just being stuck on the same route. And, yeah. I...
10:22
That probably happened in consequence of you are this unreliable narrator and to try and sort of prevent that, if you are willing to humble enough to accept that, you become more and more rigid and build a world view you stick to even when the circumstances change. And, yeah.
10:40
The only way out of that is the humility of sort of awareness.
10:44
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So, it's interesting to me that it almost...
10:45
I, honestly- And I'm saying this, maybe truthfully. Haha. Thomas Bevan: Who knows?
10:49
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I just can't understand why people are reluctant to do this. Right?
10:55
I think of a quote by the writer, who's not a real person by the way, Jed McKenna.
11:01
But what he says in the quote is the unexamined life is not worth living.
11:06
And then he goes on to say, holy shit.
11:06
That's a really scary concept, I bet most people freak out when they read just that quote. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
11:15
Jim O'Shaughnessy: But why do you think that is?
11:16
Is it because we hope for control?
11:16
We hope for hearth and home.
11:23
Kind of the Rockwell vision of a happy family, happy life, all these things.
11:23
Or is it because fear, which in my opinion remains the base driving emotion of we humans, has just made us so terrified to even look over the cliff much less jump?
11:41
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's just... yeah.
11:41
It's the fear of change because... yeah. There's a certain...
11:43
It's not even comfort, really. People say it's comfort. It's not even comfort.
11:46
It's just a kind of familiarity of the known and it feels like that's the way to be. Stay where you are.
11:50
Stay consistent in your views.
11:55
The world becomes understandable.
11:55
And it's when you take on those views, it's probably true.
12:01
And things stay static for quite a while, but then you have a seismic change in the world.
12:05
And if you haven't built any sort of either mental apparatus to understand things or that sort of epistemic humility to be like, yeah, everything I thought before was wrong in light of this new information. And so, yeah.
12:14
It seems like a good strategy.
12:14
But like any strategy that involves just being static, eventually it ends up catastrophically failing.
12:24
But the short term, because it feels more comfortable in the initial difficulty of change, I presume that's why people stay there. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
12:31
I've always heard that stasis equals death.
12:33
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative) Jim O'Shaughnessy: And unfortunately...
12:34
If I could get people to understand that.
12:36
But again, I don't try because I can't change anybody. Thomas Bevan: No.
12:41
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I fully understand that.
12:41
You can change only yourself.
12:43
You might be able to help somebody.
12:43
You might be able to point the way, but I passionately believe that the only one who can change you is you. And so, virtually...
12:54
Like everything- You had written a piece I really enjoyed, Listicles.
12:54
And I had done a real rant that I wrote right on the app because I had been reading one of these idiotic things.
13:05
And the reason I clicked on it was I was curious. I was actually curious.
13:05
What are they trying to foist on people here. Right?
13:10
And this particular one was something like the 10 habits that all millionaires do.
13:15
I'm immediately offended by the headline. All, X. All, X.
13:20
Thomas Bevan: They're all the same. Yeah. I think... Yeah.
13:21
I've tried to avoid those things for years because they're awful.
13:24
But like you say, generally the actual topic itself is something could potentially have some worth if it were written by human rather than like a human robot.
13:29
So you see the headline, think oh that looks quite good.
13:34
I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. Then you just read it. And, yeah.
13:38
If it's anything that you've got any sort of knowledge or experience on whatsoever, you're just like well that's wrong.
13:41
That's the opposite of my experience.
13:46
All these kind of things. And, yeah.
13:46
This is where I started, against my own better judgment, writing sort of longer essays about writing itself.
13:49
Just because I had so many bones to pick with the received wisdom of all of this. Just being like, yeah.
13:58
I don't really prize editing half as much as most people do.
13:58
I don't know if it makes me a better thinker in the way that everyone seems to claim these things do.
14:03
Because all these things, all the main points of what writing online is all about, I'm just like that doesn't seem to be applicable.
14:11
Because like the millionaires, we're not all the same.
14:16
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right. We're all different. Right? Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
14:17
[crosstalk] And the difference is interesting, but that seems to get lost in the sort of signaling little urban ideology.
14:19
This many views, which then become numerically sort of correct.
14:25
And from that, that views just gets spread. And, yeah.
14:30
Any sort of nuance or actual useful information from an actual practitioner just gets drowned out because it doesn't sound as good as these nice sound guys. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. So. I've written four books.
14:42
And in that regard, I do find editing to be helpful. Because I can go on.
14:48
And sometimes a helpful editor slapping my wrist with a ruler saying you don't have to tell them 10 times the same thing, works out.
14:56
But then, I started writing letters to my kids when my son was just a few days old.
15:00
And I would give them all the letters- I have three kids.
15:06
So, I would give them all the letters on their birthday. And I was reading...
15:12
The second entry that I put in was against editing because I had read the first letter I wrote, and I'm like...
15:19
I didn't like some of the things I'd said or the way I- Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
15:23
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So, above it in all caps I wrote original version.
15:24
I can't remember what I said.
15:24
But then as I was thinking about it, I'm like if I took this out or this out or this out, it's going to lose all of the meaning. Right?
15:34
So meaning is often found in the mistakes. Right?
15:39
It's- Thomas Bevan: Well, in digressions.
15:40
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Or in digressions. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
15:42
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Exactly. Right. And so, I...
15:43
You can see this painting behind and some people that I do the pod with really love it and they ask about it.
15:47
And there's really a great story about it.
15:51
Us visiting the artist and she was dying of pancreatic cancer.
15:51
But I remember that I wrote it down, my visit, because I was really struck by it.
15:57
And A, again, unreliable narrator.
16:04
I did love her, but I thought, I didn't live here in the east coast yet- And of course, I did.
16:09
And so, I was reading all the journals from 88, 89, 90 right before I moved here.
16:15
I'm like, fuck, I know that I wrote this down and I know that it was from this period.
16:15
And then I thought, now will you pay attention to your own advice, And I went and I read the later and there it was.
16:25
But the point is, it was a great story that I was able to capture the moment I got back to my house, right after I met with her. And it was... It's beautiful.
16:37
Those things are by their very nature, they're written more, in my opinion, to learn and to keep as messages and thoughts about your own life.
16:42
But let me ask you a question.
16:48
If you were going to publish all of the stuff that you've written so far for the commonplace, all the essays. Right?
16:53
Not the film reviews or that stuff, but the essays. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
16:59
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Would you want an editor to go through them?
17:00
Thomas Bevan: Well I can answer that because they will be coming out soon. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Oh!
17:06
Thomas Bevan: The first 50.
17:07
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Fantastic.
17:08
Thomas Bevan: And it's basically just spell check. So.
17:10
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love it. So, no.
17:10
When are they coming out? Congratulations. That's awesome. Thomas Bevan: Yeah. Well, it's...
17:15
I've still got to work out the details because I'll be just publishing myself.
17:18
And I'm looking to do a limited, sort of probably 100 person signed hardback around the first.
17:24
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Count me in. Count me in.
17:25
Thomas Bevan: Which I'm hoping to do pretty quickly.
17:26
But with all the things happening in the world, just think this has got to be shipped all over the world and Christmas is coming.
17:29
Do I do this now and it gets lost in the post for everyone or do I wait until start of next year, this kind of thing?
17:38
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right, right.
17:39
Thomas Bevan: That'll be happening in some capacity soon.
17:40
And then after that, it'll just be the standard Amazon and digital route. And, yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Sure. Wow. That's great.
17:47
And you decided to do that because of the impermanence of the web or the fact that every tweet I've ever tweeted doesn't belong to me, it belongs to Jack.
17:59
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
18:00
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And...
18:01
I love Spotify but all those songs belong to Toby, not me. Thomas Bevan: Yep.
18:06
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And so, it's...
18:06
I was talking to a very young person who... He's an artist.
18:07
And what- Who I've supported, by the way.
18:07
And he was here pitching me on...
18:11
He's got a gallery that's a kind of a cooperative on 20th St in Manhattan.
18:16
If you know Manhattan, that's a really cool area.
18:16
And he was here with his partner and they were saying, yeah our hook here is that we have no social media at all. And I'm like, okay. Okay. That's interesting.
18:26
You guys want to ultimately monetize this, right? I mean. So... No social media. No, nothing? No Instagram? No...
18:30
And the answer that they gave I thought was really good and clever.
18:35
It got me thinking about it.
18:35
So, I'm 61 and for most of my life, prior to the internet, you had to show up. Right?
18:43
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
18:44
Jim O'Shaughnessy: You wanted a book, you went to the bookstore.
18:46
And you often times ended up buying books that you didn't go there to buy, but it was just browsing. Right?
18:51
It was just the browsing that allowed you, oo, this looks interesting. I like this.
18:54
I still do that even though I read mostly on Kindle.
18:54
Just because it's easier for me to do.
19:00
When I used to travel, my book bag weighed 50 or 60 pounds. And so...
19:00
But then the further they went into it, they were like no, no, no.
19:06
So just to frame it, they're both, I think, 24. Okay.
19:10
And they said no, no, no.
19:10
People our age crave the actual human contact, and but they also take a little bit of pleasure in they were there and friend X, Y, Z or friends X, Y, Z weren't. Right?
19:26
And so, he told me about his first show.
19:26
Completely just word of mouth. That was it. 225 people showed up. Thomas Bevan: Wow.
19:37
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And of course, they are all Instagraming it. Right?
19:41
Thomas Bevan: There you go.
19:42
Jim O'Shaughnessy: But the point that they made was that it made them even more enticing. Right? Because scarcity. Thomas Bevan: Of course.
19:47
Jim O'Shaughnessy: If it's scarce and nobody knows about it, it's really cool to be able to be part of that scene.
19:49
I think that, and you wrote something about it, we're going to talk about it in a little bit.
19:54
But I definitely think that a blend of online and offline is maybe the right mix.
19:58
At least for me, maybe not for everybody.
20:03
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).
20:04
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Because I'm a tech freak too.
20:05
I early adopted all technology.
20:05
And because the power's in the network.
20:09
And by that I mean, I started thinking about Van Gogh, and if you've ever seen any of his work it's brilliant.
20:13
At least, I think it's brilliant.
20:13
And then I started thinking to myself- Thomas Bevan: What went wrong? Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. But I found... I figured...
20:20
Now, this is only my theory. Okay.
20:20
So, scholars out there- Thomas Bevan: No [crosstalk].
20:23
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah, right.
20:24
Scholars out there, I'm just spit balling here. Okay?
20:25
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
20:26
Jim O'Shaughnessy: But he had no network.
20:26
His brother Theo was his art dealer. Theo had no connections. None. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
20:33
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And so, if your rep is a single person, you brother, who doesn't really know anyone or really go out of his way to try to promote- Thomas Bevan: Or know the business. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. Or know the business.
20:43
Guess what's going to happen?
20:43
You're not going to sell any fucking paintings.
20:46
And so, I definitely think the network...
20:46
There's huge value in the network.
20:51
Isn't that kind of why you came back on Twitter? Thomas Bevan: Yeah. Yeah. And I think... Right.
20:53
I'm going to try and hit a few different points here. Yeah.
20:57
First of all, with the Van Gogh thing, I believe that he briefly knew Gauguin who could've helped him, but he managed to piss him off. Which still...
21:03
[inaudible] And again, all historians will probably correct but that's my understanding.
21:09
Jim O'Shaughnessy: No, I- [crosstalk] Thomas Bevan: I completely missed your point about the network.
21:13
And also to go right back to the very start of what we're talking about, it's all about avoiding the middle.
21:17
So that example you gave of the people who promoted their art and weren't online at all, that's very much one way.
21:23
And you can go very much the other way and be completely cutting edge online with networks, and that's great too.
21:29
But the trap that you can fall into is being right in the middle.
21:35
Which is where you're on Twitter on day but you're not actually doing anything of meaning with it.
21:40
You're just being this sort of share cropper for the algorithm.
21:44
Just sort of putting things out which don't help you, don't really help anyone else. And, yeah.
21:48
You just end up becoming trapped.
21:48
It's weird because even though, ostensibly, that's kind of creative.
21:52
It's in reality much more of a consumer sort of approach, if you like. And, yeah.
21:57
Again, as we saw in many other things, once you're trapped in the middle.
22:02
So if you avid that, either through one extreme or the other, then that's when you're going to get somewhere.
22:06
And I suppose, I think, a good way to do that would be going back to the art show again.
22:09
Everything seeming to be very, very much online.
22:15
The actual markets of physical books, for vinyl, for all these tangible things are actually increasing and have been increasing for a number of years now.
22:19
So I think the key is rather than being in the middle, it's to try and do these two diametrically opposed things at the same time.
22:28
And through that you get a new synthesis, and that's where I suppose things become interesting. Because, yeah.
22:33
We're coming back to twitter.
22:33
Even though I'm sure I've got the smallest account of anyone who's ever appeared on the podcast or ever will.
22:40
[crosstalk] Jim O'Shaughnessy: I wouldn't count on that. Thomas Bevan: But, yeah.
22:42
I mean, if you use these things...
22:42
I think sensibly and kind of in proportion of, yeah, there is enough there for it to be worthwhile.
22:44
If you don't fall into the terrible trap of this thing. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. Yeah. And...
22:50
I think one of the things about it is if you...
22:50
Really, it depends on the person. Right? So.
22:53
I have specific goals or had specific goals with moving to social media from traditional media.
22:59
I used to do a lot of traditional media.
22:59
TV, newspaper, interviews, et cetera.
23:05
And in, I don't know, 2016 or 17 or thereabouts I just noticed this undeniable trend.
23:11
That the reason that the traditional journalists and whatnot were all having these epic emotional meltdowns is because they realized they're no longer the vaunted gatekeeper.
23:26
So one of the things that I love about the internet, you actually wrote a piece about it called The Internet is our Paris.
23:30
And one of the things that I love is that, that's true.
23:38
In a pre-internet world, I'd never meet you.
23:38
I wouldn't see what you'd written.
23:42
Thomas Bevan: Exactly, yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: I...
23:44
And so, I look at as this wonderful menu that you need to curate. You can't... I want to stress that. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
23:51
Jim O'Shaughnessy: But that where you can meet and read people, like I found you for example.
23:52
I found a lot of the people that have been on this podcast, and to me that is a big step forward.
23:57
In terms of geography collapsing everything and whatnot.
24:04
But you wrote something else, I think, what was for the sovereign individual which I wanted to talk to you about.
24:10
So you had a quote or you wrote, we are all gamblers at heart as we make bets on the future with words and deeds.
24:20
I want to talk to you about the idea of words as labels and label pickers.
24:20
So I was going to write a thread and use bedding as my analogy, but the reason I chose not to do that was because I knew that I would have to dig through 300 tweets that said, "so you're saying..." .
24:41
Which, by the way, instantly muted.
24:41
If you say so you're saying to me, I mute you instantly.
24:47
But because of label thinking, they would say oh, so you're saying that investing is gambling.
24:52
I don't think gambling is right, therefore... Fill in the blank. What do you think...
24:57
Do you think a lot about the way that people think in labels and not with original eyes? I guess I'd say. Thomas Bevan: Yeah. It's tricky.
25:04
I suppose the problem becomes not necessarily the label itself, but I think what's happening there, if you're trying to use something metaphorically or as an analogy.
25:12
Which it's always a great way to look at something through the lens of something else. Yeah, that.
25:18
Like if I was ever to talk about writing, I don't think I've talked about it in terms of writing and compare it to a sport or some other activity.
25:27
And then that way, that frames in a different way.
25:27
But I think what happens is you've got a certain set of people who have that capacity to see, talk about things metaphorically, and read things if it were a metaphor.
25:35
But these certain buzzwords and linguistic things from certain domains, people latch onto as signifiers.
25:41
And then, they only use them in the most literal sense.
25:48
And almost don't have that capacity to sort of shift the context of... yeah.
25:53
Seeing that you're trying to explain something in terms of another. And, yeah.
25:56
It's just this bizarre...
25:56
And the internet might well foster it, but it's this bizarre sort of literalism that you just encounter all the time. It's just maddening.
26:04
I don't know what has caused it, I don't know what the solution is.
26:04
But it's just those guys in the replies. It's awful.
26:10
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Well, you need to be very aggressive in your curation as far as I'm concerned.
26:13
Thomas Bevan: Stay obscure, which is mine. That's my strategy.
26:15
Go under the radar, stay obscure.
26:19
Jim O'Shaughnessy: You might not stay obscure. I don't know about that.
26:23
One of the things you wrote... I mean, you...
26:23
What I like about you and what you write is you hit on many of the things that I think and write about a lot.
26:25
And I think that this was in the same piece, the sovereign individual piece, where you said something along the lines of feudal serfdom seemed inevitable right up until the moment it wasn't. Right?
26:41
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
26:42
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And it made me think of two things.
26:42
It made me think of Heraclitus and his everything is change.
26:43
The same man can't step in the same river because the river is different and so is the man.
26:49
But it also made me think about Bucky Fuller who said you're never going to be able to change an existing status. Right?
27:01
Or way of doing things, using it's own terms.
27:01
What Bucky said was that you have to change the model, build a new model which antiquates and makes obsolete the old one. So.
27:08
And I think one of the ways people can do that, is doing what you're doing. Right?
27:13
Writing essays on a variety of thoughts that ultimately become a body of thought that makes other people think. And so on, and so on. Right? And so, is...
27:24
I guess this is a question about your goal.
27:28
Was this just something that you just was like, God, I really just got to do this?
27:33
Or was it, huh, maybe I can do this and earn a living as a writer and be a flaneur and that'd be really cool? What was your thinking?
27:41
Thomas Bevan: I think it was the former and then it became the latter when it became a bit more viable.
27:49
Because I think people always have this idea of, this goal oriented idea, and you build up a certain level and you get to the lifestyle that you want.
27:55
My lifestyle is time freedom, and I got that in my mid 20s when I was giving in. So, there's no need...
28:00
Why earn the money to retire when you can just mentally retire when you're 25? So. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Okay.
28:08
Thomas Bevan: So because I had a lot of time, it was just pure... Yeah.
28:10
Just pure, sort of, expression and things like this.
28:10
Didn't have any kind of goal or motivation, really, besides being read by certain...
28:13
If people read it and they like it, doesn't matter the number.
28:18
Just some sort of engagement, that'd be good.
28:18
And I think because I approached it in that way rather than like a much more instrumental, metric driven sort of why.
28:26
I think because of that, that resonated with some people.
28:32
And then as a result of that, the numbers build up in such a way it's like, oh, a lifetime of money seen gone here. Then, yeah.
28:35
That might be a chance to make a living, which seems to be how it's going. Which is fantastic. But, yeah.
28:40
It's that thing where I don't think you can ever approach anything like that directly.
28:44
Especially anything that's got any sort of artistic component.
28:49
If you decide I'm going to make a living, I'm going to make X amount of money.
28:53
You'll either A, fail or B, you'll kind of dilute and kill the goose that lays the golden egg in the process of doing it. So, yeah.
29:01
Initially, it was just... Yeah. It was pure expression.
29:05
Just kind of saying what's on my mind, but as a result of that I guess that is what made it resonate with people.
29:09
And then that made the second way possible. Jim O'Shaughnessy: So.
29:14
I agree, by the way, making things conditional is not a good way to think about them.
29:14
If I achieve X then I will be happy.
29:19
If I don't do Y, then I will... Whatever.
29:19
Don't make your life conditional. And don't...
29:27
Again, I think we're coming back to the fear the middle. Right?
29:32
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
29:33
Jim O'Shaughnessy: It's kind of like don't be that person. Right? Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
29:35
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Who just is kind of...
29:36
My friend Alex Danco has The Office social hierarchy theory of humanity, and the original British Office was, of course, brilliant with Ricky Gervais.
29:46
And I must say, even the American version was pretty brilliant too.
29:46
Because it’s just a massive satire on who we are and everything there. I think...
29:51
I'm a huge believer that the comedians are the truth tellers of our era.
29:57
And that, if you want to tell people the truth...
30:01
I think it was Billy Wilder who said it.
30:01
If you want to tell people the truth, you better be funny or they'll fucking kill you.
30:05
So, did you have any trepidations about putting it out there?
30:14
Thomas Bevan: Not really because I just...
30:16
I guess I just kind of thought, who cares. It's not as if...
30:20
To be canceled and attacked by a mob, you have to first be a known quantity.
30:20
And so, because you start... Yeah, so who cares. And...
30:24
Jim O'Shaughnessy: You're right.
30:26
Thomas Bevan: And I think, yeah.
30:27
I guess one thing that the internet's done, especially that sort of very centralized web to kind of thing, going back to the listicles idea, is its kind of deskilled people in their general reading ability.
30:35
And so I'm never going to annoy anyone because it's actual paragraphs. So.
30:41
So I've already weeded people out, it's not a problem. It's fine.
30:45
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love that. That's fantastic. Where are the pictures?
30:47
Where are the pictures in this? Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
30:52
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Oh, I would like you to tell me a little bit about the Roaring 20s social club. What's that all about?
30:56
Thomas Bevan: That is, and I think this is generally the way the world is going, it seemed as things increasingly decentralize which is the main thing of Web 3. 0.
31:06
Is that people seemed to be forming more sort of smaller, private communities.
31:14
Often by discord, which is what my social club is.
31:14
So it's part of signing up for the premium Substack.
31:20
You get entry to the club which is a bunch of other writers, artists, poets, designers, just general layabouts and idlers.
31:31
Jim O'Shaughnessy: My people. Thomas Bevan: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, so.
31:33
Over the course of a year or so, I've been trying to lasso the kind of people who get what I'm saying and aren't completely caught up in that hustle culture or don't want to be anymore. And so, yeah.
31:45
Just corral them into this sort of online solemn we've created. And, yeah. We just hang out.
31:51
Kind of people who want help with their writing, we do that aspect. And just, yeah. So on and so forth.
31:56
And that is what you get for being part of my premium Substack.
31:56
So there is a tiny, tiny little charge there.
32:00
And that just enables me to earn a living, so I can just write what I want to write without compromise, have time for all the people there, and sort of on we go. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
32:11
And, so do you see this as... Where are you?
32:11
If you don't mind me asking.
32:11
Where are you- Thomas Bevan: No, no.
32:14
Jim O'Shaughnessy: In the continuum of your Commonplace Substack and the Roaring 20s social club is making X amount of money for you.
32:20
Are you at a place where you can do just that or is that still a little ways off?
32:26
Thomas Bevan: Just about.
32:27
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Just about. Okay. Thomas Bevan: Yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah. Okay, well. Congratulations. That's very cool.
32:30
That is one of the things that I love about, kind of, Web 3. O. Right?
32:31
Is that people can do that, which I think is fantastic.
32:37
And I think it will lead to, again referencing while all the [inaudible] now are melting down is because all of the best people are leaving that world.
32:49
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
32:50
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And setting up their own Substack or podcast or whatever. And they're making bank. And so, one of the...
32:53
Or not all of them are making bank, but people are making enough to make a living.
32:59
Thomas Bevan: It's certainly possible. Yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
33:01
Thomas Bevan: It's certainly possible.
33:02
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And so, I love that because it...
33:02
Talk about something that levels the playing field for creative people.
33:08
Thomas Bevan: I think for the most part, it's actually meritocratic. It seems.
33:11
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I agree.
33:12
I totally agree, but that's a whole different subject.
33:12
It's like I've been doing a deep dive on complex adaptive learning systems which are mostly anything that we use or have invented.
33:24
And there's this thing that is true for bacteria and true for the stock market, and this the Matthew effect.
33:31
And what means is, in a network node of learning, right, the nodes that are more correct on making predictions attract a bunch of additional connections. Right?
33:42
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
33:43
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And the nodes that don't, die.
33:44
And so the bible quote is, I don't know it exactly, but its something along the lines of those to he who has more will be given to those who have not, if even what little they have will be taken away from them. That's really... It's really brutal.
33:58
But it does seem, in fact, to be operating at every level from bacteria all the way up to the most advanced social systems.
34:07
And so, one of the ways that I think web 3.
34:14
O can maybe negate that a little bit is it can provide a platform for people who are not maybe the loudest node, right, getting all the connections.
34:21
But as you say, meritocracy, it would not surprise me if we did another talk a year from now and you had double the subscribers. Because I...
34:31
what happens is, the node, i. e.
34:31
you, attracts someone like me who would be an amplifier and then other people see it and they're like, well I want him on my podcast too.
34:44
Or I want to write about him. Or... and...
34:44
That talent is basically what gets rewarded there. So.
34:51
It can sound brutal, but I don't know it seems like if we were going to apply that to sport...
34:58
I mean, can you imagine your favorite football team just picking people off the street?
35:02
Jim O'Shaughnessy: What we call soccer and what you guys call football. It would be horrible.
35:05
You wouldn't go and watch.
35:07
But you also wrote in a piece that I really thought was fantastic, diving for pearls, and you quoted Nietzsche.
35:12
Basically, you said he who has a why can withstand almost any how. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
35:20
It's just you only going to be able to enjoy something if it is in some way meaningful for you.
35:25
Which, yeah, is just the fundamental thing of life, really.
35:25
How do you manage to get on?
35:30
How do you manage to survive if you don't have a sense of meaning or a sense of purpose attached to the action in question. Then, yeah... You'll just...
35:36
You'll just pave the way.
35:39
That's what keeps you going.
35:39
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And was that a self-referential quote?
35:41
Thomas Bevan: I think so, to a degree. Yeah.
35:44
I think that's something that you learn. Because, yes.
35:44
Suffering of one form or another is going to be an inevitability of life.
35:48
That's certainly what I've found.
35:53
And I first kind of in the essay called diving for pearls, it's to do with these cliches of how writers and other artistic type people seem to be quiet depressive and things of that nature.
36:04
And I argue that is part of it.
36:04
Kind of going to the depths, if you'd like.
36:09
To kind of extract the pearl, and that's the meaning.
36:09
And you bring that back to the surface and share that with the collective.
36:12
Which is fine if you're aware that that is what you're doing because then as part of that you can actually have sort of processes and things in place to deal with the stress of...
36:21
I think I kind of made a comparison with the beds.
36:26
When you sort of come up too quickly- Jim O'Shaughnessy: You did.
36:28
Thomas Bevan: And what not- Yeah. Yeah.
36:29
Quite a long time since I wrote that one. But... So, yeah. It's...
36:30
These things are worthwhile and these things are endurable if you have a self-defined meaning behind them.
36:33
And I think that's the purpose of and the way to get through the creative acts. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
36:39
So the other thing that I've kind of seen in all social systems that I've analyzed, be they sun kings or parliaments or whatever, it seems to me that one could spin the way things come out as a conspiracy. Right?
36:53
As these people up here are telling us don't be Icarus, don't fly too close to the sun ad be mediocre and do all of these things.
37:04
I think that it's a naturally occurring phenomenon.
37:04
And I think that when you look at religions, gee, they also help keep social order. Who would've thought?
37:11
So, I sometimes think that we need the more change agents, as I would call you for example and myself actually, the better.
37:25
Because it's the only way you get uncomfortable, as you in your essay pointed out, you go up to fast, you get the beds, you die.
37:33
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
37:34
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Right. And, so.
37:34
But without it, then stasis and entropy enter the game. And it's kind of kaput. So...
37:36
You get this learned helplessness and when people have a learned helplessness, they are totally surrendering their agency. Right?
37:50
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
37:51
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And I, for better or worse, think that the only way anyone is going to make it in the world, not just this world almost any world, is by not surrendering their agency.
37:58
And so, that is something, why I get attracted to writers like you and other people who are saying really interesting things, very thoughtful things that make me question my own thinking on any number of matters.
38:17
Do you think it's an archetype or not?
38:17
When you're doing your Roaring 20s social club, do you see an archetype there?
38:25
Thomas Bevan: God, that's hard to say.
38:25
That's a really good question.
38:27
I suppose there's probably a cluster of archetypes because there's going to be certain fundamental shared interests.
38:31
But it's not very much like all of one temperament necessarily, I would say.
38:37
I mean, obviously it's going to skew somewhat towards introversion but it's the internet.
38:41
But you can take that as a given, pretty much. But... But, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.
38:44
I think a lot of limitations, to go back to the other point, is that the kind of environmental to a degree but it's almost self-imposed within that.
38:49
You've got the orthodoxy and the status quo of their environment.
38:55
Kind of what I've called in one of my essays, the wall in the head.
39:00
Where it feels like your environment is sort of walled.
39:03
And I think it's more of an English thing, to be honest.
39:03
There's more so limitations on who you are and what you can be and the kind of world you live in and these kinds of things.
39:11
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I have a lot of English friends and that is very true. I think one of the... I...
39:12
America has many, many, many faults but one of them is not the idea that anyone can come here and if they build a better mousetrap can, in a generation, become either extraordinarily wealthy or influential or whatever they want. Right? So. I don't know.
39:30
Maybe my priorities are because I was born here.
39:35
But it is funny to me that other places, ostensibly, I mean we're cousins. Right?
39:37
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
39:38
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And yet it still has that syndrome there.
39:39
I think it might be also a function of language and accent, quite frankly. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
39:41
That's [crosstalk] definitely a component through which the class system kind of manifests itself. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yep. Absolutely.
39:46
Thomas Bevan: Absolutely.
39:47
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And as you might expect, I am opposed.
39:48
I don't think that that exists.
39:48
So before we go, I had one of other thing that I wanted to get your opinion. Oh, this I love. On walking.
39:53
So my wife is a street photographer and, literally Thomas, she will walk 15 to 20 miles a day.
40:00
And I have seen every European capital from London to Paris to Berlin on foot.
40:00
And I love it, actually, to be honest.
40:10
Because it is the only way to truly understand a city. Yes? Thomas Bevan: Yeah. Absolutely.
40:17
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And because you're not removing your- Have you read the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
40:20
Thomas Bevan: A long, long time ago. Yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
40:21
It's one I reread a number of times because I think his insights are quite compelling.
40:22
And one of the things he makes the point that if you're whizzing by in a car, it's maybe like your wall of the mind. Right?
40:27
You're just in your own little capsule.
40:32
And you're not really seeing it.
40:32
Seeing London, for example one of my favorite European cities, Paris on foot.
40:35
Vastly different impression. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
40:37
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Than...
40:37
You really can't get it any other way. I don't think.
40:38
So, how much do you walk and is that where you get your best ideas?
40:47
Thomas Bevan: I try and do...
40:47
I probably do a couple hours a day.
40:52
Sometimes less, but the walk absolutely has to happen. I'll...
40:52
Don't own a car, for example, or anything like this. So, yeah.
40:58
Definitely have to walk just to buy food or go out to the library get books, all this kind of thing. And, yeah.
41:02
It's where you have the best ideas. Definitely.
41:06
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Is your...
41:07
Thomas Bevan: It's something to do with motion, I think.
41:08
Just something to do with the actual act of motion, fresh air, and all these kind of things just you naturally find yourself, kind of, ruminating at the speed that you're walking at.
41:17
And you don't even realize you have problems or thoughts, but they'll just come to you and you'll try and solve them. And then, yeah.
41:26
After you've done an hours walk you sit home, start writing, and it pretty much, inevitably comes. So, yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Is...
41:33
That's how I actually got the idea for my first two books was on [crosstalk] long walks.
41:38
Is it a desultory stroll or do you go with a purpose?
41:38
Do you have a place that you are walking to or do you just kind of walk?
41:46
Thomas Bevan: It's kind of both.
41:46
In so far as, like I said, whether it be some food or the library or whatever.
41:51
There'll be vague, sort of destinations but there's not a set root.
41:56
So I know I need to be over there which is a mile away, but I might go this way and then back that way and then do some sort of really convoluted circuit and then end up at my destination.
42:06
Which, yeah, that itself probably kind of in of itself informs the writing as far as if you read my stuff. You start here.
42:10
You go on a massive tangent here.
42:15
You'll notice we always get where we're going. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Okay.
42:21
So you have the books coming out, which I think is splendid.
42:25
You have subscriptions getting real close to making it so you can have a living.
42:28
Thomas Bevan: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
42:29
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Any further aspirations or are you happy just being able to write what you want to write without any interference, et cetera?
42:34
Thomas Bevan: That's perfect.
42:37
That's kind of the foundation, and I think from then the real work starts.
42:42
There's definitely got to be a lot more fiction at the start.
42:42
Something like early, middle last year I put out some short stories which went well.
42:46
But I need to get back on that train.
42:51
Which that'll happen once I've got the time from this being a full time living. And, yeah.
42:56
Just more essays, more reviews, more stories, collections, fiction. Yeah.
43:00
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Love it. I love it.
43:00
Well, this has been fantastic.
43:04
Do you want to just tell our listeners how they can find you, please. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
43:07
The Substack is Thomas J Bevan.
43:07
That's T-H-O-M-A-S J B-E-V-A-N dot Substack dot com.
43:11
And you can sign up for free or you can give me money if you- Jim O'Shaughnessy: If you want to read the good stuff.
43:20
Thomas Bevan: If you're not after [inaudible] soul. Then, yeah. You can do that.
43:22
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love that phrase.
43:23
Thomas Bevan: And there's a... Yeah.
43:23
The Twitter, which isn't the most active to be honest, but that's Thomas J Bevan but the E in Bevan is a three. And, yeah.
43:29
They're the two main places you'll find me.
43:29
But of the two, it's got to be the Substack all day long. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yep. Yep.
43:35
I would agree and we will put that in the show notes.
43:35
Well in closing, we always ask our guests this question.
43:40
And we've gotten some really interesting responses. So here we go.
43:45
Thomas Bevan: No pressure.
43:47
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Thomas, we are making you the emperor of the world. Only for one day. Thomas Bevan: Okay.
43:53
Jim O'Shaughnessy: You can't kill anyone. Thomas Bevan: Oh.
43:55
Jim O'Shaughnessy: And you can't put anyone in a re-education camp, but you can- Have you seen the movie inception? Thomas Bevan: Yeah. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Okay.
44:00
You can incept the entire population of the globe.
44:04
So they're going to wake up the next day having two ideas that they are going to think they thought of and they are going to pursue.
44:10
What are you going incept in the world's population?
44:14
Thomas Bevan: The problem is whenever I get asked... I break a...
44:15
Thinking what can I put in people’s heads. Jim O'Shaughnessy: Yeah.
44:18
Thomas Bevan: That wouldn't just screw the world up.
44:19
Man, I've got this awful burden of responsibility of being world emperor for a day with no murders and not even that sort of consolation.
44:20
Sort of like a not mess this up.
44:21
So I think what I would do is I would implant nothing. So.
44:22
The day after, possibly for the first time in a long time, everyone in the world just does nothing for one day. Just day off. Universal day off.
44:26
And then maybe you'll realize your life needs to change.
44:32
Maybe you'll just be able to relax.
44:32
But one day- Jim O'Shaughnessy: So an inception, the inception would be they're going to all wake up and say you know what [crosstalk]- Thomas Bevan: Everyone's having the day off tomorrow.
44:44
Jim O'Shaughnessy: Everyone's having the day off. I like that idea. Okay. What's the next one? Thomas Bevan: Okay. So.
44:47
Again, had I not ruined the world with this burden of responsibility.
44:47
That's the thought process.
44:48
So it's got to be something that's universal, but because people are listening it's got to be not incredibly boring and cliché.
44:52
So that just diametrically opposes what I... Okay. So.
44:58
What I want is, even though everyone's having the day off and doing nothing, they've got one thing to do.
45:03
Which is they need to make something.
45:03
Doesn't matter what it is, whether it be a poem or a painting, making something, record a song, some kind of creative thing which they need to make.
45:14
And then the next day, they give it to someone else with no expectation of return.
45:20
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love that. That's really great.
45:22
Thomas Bevan: Because that's something that would ripple but not like in an awful, destroy the world kind of way.
45:29
So that's the only way I can see of tackling the awful burden of your question.
45:33
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So I love that you approached the question that way because so many times in history the people who do the most damage to humanity always are claiming they're doing it for their best interests. Thomas Bevan: Yeah.
45:47
Jim O'Shaughnessy: So I love the fact that you- Thomas Bevan: I'm just trying not to be a tyrant.
45:51
Jim O'Shaughnessy: I love that. I love well that.
45:51
Well Thomas, this has been really fun.
45:53
Thank you for coming on Infinite Loops.
45:53
And we [crosstalk] just going to keep reading you and we look for some great stuff.
45:59
Thomas Bevan: Thank you very much, my friend.