Emmy Award-Winner Teaches Writing (Noah Hawley Interview) — searchlore

Emmy Award-Winner Teaches Writing (Noah Hawley Interview)

David Perell · Noah Hawley

Published Jun 3, 2026

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0:00

Noah Hawley has written books and movies and TV shows like Alien Earth and Fargo.

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>> [music] >> He's been successful not just because he's a talented writer, but also because he's a consummate professional.

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He's [music] fluent not just in the world of stories and characters, but he also knows how to work inside the industry, how to get [music] things done.

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And if you want to make it as a writer, whether it's on the page or on the big screen, well, this interview >> [music] >> is a roadmap for doing that.

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The place I want to start is writers' rooms and the benefits of writers' rooms and also the drawbacks cuz you're like a pretty solo writer guy.

0:37

Uh so, I just want to hear about the experience of being in a writers' room.

0:40

Yeah, I mean, I have a love-hate relationship with the writers' room.

0:41

And hate's a strong word, but a writers' room is a collection of people with very different brains and the only common language they speak is plot.

0:48

So, you tend to end up with this happens, then this happens, then this happens, right?

0:54

So, it's very narrative-driven.

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And the because you're breaking story in a room with the what happens next mindset, you're not really using the writing part of your brain, you're using the list-making part of your brain, the outline part of your brain, right?

1:08

And they're very different brains.

1:10

And so, you know, I always try to steer them, certainly when I'm in the room, when I say I love it, it's cuz it's a great way to help me think out loud, right?

1:22

And to bounce ideas and but but it works best when I'm in there and I'm driving it, you know?

1:27

And then, the sort of perfect version of it is if I can't be in the room tomorrow, I'm going to say to the writers, "Don't talk about what happens next.

1:39

Let's talk about, say, how assimilation is a is a theme that runs through this season of Fargo."

1:44

And you know, so talk about the different characters and the different way assimilation plays into all these stories.

1:50

Then we'll talk about that tomorrow and we'll keep we'll keep going, right?

1:53

You know, I'll often get pitched um an idea in the writer's room for Fargo and I'll go, "Oh, well, that's a great movie twist if this was a movie, right? That's a great turn."

2:04

But, reality doesn't It rarely does reality end with white hat versus black hat in the town square at noon, right?

2:11

So, and because Fargo is is defined by me as a lot of moving pieces on a collision course and because there are so many of them you don't know which will collide and when, you don't really know what's going to happen next.

2:24

That's part of the fun of it is the unexpectedness of it, right?

2:27

It's And so, this idea that say season 2, you know, you've got Kirsten Dunst and Jesse Plemons and and they've run a foul of this North Dakota crime family and you're like, "I don't care who they send, I'm rooting for Jesse and Kirsten."

2:45

And then they send the kid with cerebral palsy who just wants to prove he's a man and you're like, "I I don't want anything bad to happen to him though."

2:53

You know, you're putting the audience in this position where where they thought they were rooting for the violence, right?

2:59

Because audiences are trained that violence is story, is progress in a story, right?

3:05

But, then when the violence comes, they're like, "Oh, I don't I don't want this, you know."

3:08

And and you know, I'm always looking to try to get the audience to hold up a mirror and go, "Well, why did I want this?

3:18

Why did I want these characters to fight and now it's happening and it's awful, you know, it's violent, it's shocking, etc."

3:24

So, You talk about character there.

3:26

As you think of how a character is different in Fargo like the movie versus Fargo the TV show, it seems like longitudinally the character has to live on for a lot longer.

3:37

So, it seems like that would be one of the most structural differences between a movie and a TV show is just the depth and the time that we spend with the character. Yeah, it is.

3:47

I mean, we if you look at the movie Fargo in its totality, it's actually a lot more comedic Huh.

3:55

>> than than people remember.

3:55

I mean, it There's There's funny things obviously in our memories, but because of the way it ends in the wood chipper and you know, the sort of dignity of the ending and tomorrow's an a regular day and she's going to have a baby and he got the 3-cent stamp and there's a kind of like sublimeness to the end of it.

4:12

You know, when when you rewatch that movie, it you spend a lot of time going like, I can't believe they put her in that hat.

4:20

You know, there's a There's a comedy throughout that that I felt like if we did that in the show, people would think we got it wrong.

4:29

And we actually, you know, in in the first season I started referring to it as No Country for Old Fargo.

4:33

Like, we kind of needed more of those dramatic stakes, right?

4:37

Because reality is, I mean, once once they break in and kidnap the wife, the threat level is super low.

4:46

Frances McDormand has no threat level until the very end, right?

4:48

And and and Bill Macy is obviously he's he's making a lot of bad decisions that that that lead to violence, but you know, you need in a 10-hour story to keep the stakes up for everybody and the threat needs to be constant.

5:03

How do you watch a movie differently than how I would watch a movie?

5:08

Like, I've never made a movie.

5:10

I remember I had a friend in college and he was Kenner.

5:13

And we would always be watching a movie and he was one of those movie talker guys, but it was actually pretty interesting because he'd be like, "Oh my goodness, the shot, you know, like the dolly roll or whatever. That pan was amazing."

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And he was very cognizant of the music and the lighting and just the way the sound effects were coming in and he would talk about it.

5:27

I was like, "Oh my goodness, I've never watched a movie like that."

5:31

So, as you're watching No Country for Old for Old Men, as you're watching Fargo, what is it that you're looking for to try to understand what's going on?

5:40

>> Well, my hope is the first time I watch a movie, I'm just watching it as as an audience member.

5:43

Yeah, and And know, afterwards I'll have thoughts about it, like you know, one battle after another, right?

5:50

I mean, I was talking with someone last night who's who's like, "Well, people are on the love it or hate it fence."

5:55

And I said, "Well, it's I I liked it.

5:58

I just felt like the the women were in a drama and the men were in a farce.

6:03

And those are two different movies.

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And for me, they didn't jive all the time, right?

6:08

You know, the women were always the stakes were so high and they were literally fighting for their bodies and their identity.

6:13

And then you got DiCaprio kind of like stumbling through in his bathrobe and Sean Penn is kind of a caricature, right?

6:19

And And so, it felt like, "Well, it's kind of two different movies that that have been sewn together."

6:25

But I don't know that I'm that I'm aware of that while I'm watching it, but you know, by the end, I sort of have a a point of view on how the storytelling worked or or didn't work as far as I'm concerned.

6:38

Take me back to those different languages that you were talking about of We talked about theme a little bit.

6:42

We talked about character a little bit. We talked about plot.

6:44

Like, what are the different beats that you feel like you need to hit in a good story?

6:51

Well, a lot of the times um I'll start with a question, right? Um or an image.

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Um which has a question in it, right?

7:01

So, the first season of Fargo was I had this image in my head of two men who meet in the emergency room and one is a civilized man and the other is the opposite.

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And then I'm like, "Well, that's interesting.

7:12

Who are the men and what happens next, right?"

7:13

Or or you know, a woman drives home with a man sticking out of the windshield of her car, makes dinner for her husband.

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You're like, "Well, who's in the windshield?"

7:21

And you know, and you know, my first novel, A Conspiracy of Tall Men, Such a good premise.

7:28

Yeah, and I had studied uh you know, sort of um political science and and sort of cycle of paranoia in American politics.

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And you know, then after I graduated and it was Ruby Ridge and Waco and The X-Files was on and I was like, "Oh, here we go again.

7:46

What are Americans so afraid of that we keep cycling through this?"

7:50

And so, that became a question that I wanted to answer through the writing of the book.

7:57

The book becomes the answer to the question. Right?

7:59

And And so, for me the when I talk about theme, that's what I'm trying to figure out is is, you know, the answer to a question.

8:07

In Fargo, it's always decency versus cynicism, you know?

8:12

And And And how can decency win, right?

8:15

But, it's also in the the third year was very much about the, you know, it was after the 2016 election and this sort of post-truth, right? Alternative facts. Um And And what is that?

8:32

If you can't agree on what reality is, how does how do laws work?

8:36

How does law enforcement work? Et cetera.

8:37

So, that's always where I'm coming from and and, you know, on some level the characters then hopefully invisibly to the audience, but but for me they're always part of that conversation, you know?

8:50

And as you're thinking through that question about paranoia, like what are Americans so afraid of, what are you able to achieve in story that you're not able to achieve in here's an essay? Right.

9:01

Well, some of it is genre, right?

9:04

Um you know, genre provides a uh a structure for an audience that's familiar.

9:08

And then within that, you know, if you want to elevate it character or thematically, you know, you're you're doing something both familiar and unfamiliar at the same time, you know, Memento, for example, a movie that is told backwards. Yeah. Right?

9:23

And And And simply by changing the structure of of a detective story, you're changing the whole identity of what those stories are, right?

9:33

And so, um for me, there's I always look at My first question is always what am I taking for granted in approaching the story, right?

9:42

And And I'll give you an example.

9:45

I made a movie Lucy in the Sky with Natalie Portman, and I asked that question, and I thought, "Oh, well, this is a movie that's designed to play in a movie theater.

9:53

I'm taking the movie theater for granted, that it's a that it there's a big rectangle at the front and all these speakers, and you want to use the whole rectangle, and you want to use all the speakers, but what if the movie theater itself could be a tool, right?

10:07

What if when she's in space and everything's big, the image fills the whole screen and the whole room with sound, and then she comes back and she's waiting in line to pick the kid up from school, and everything sort of shrinks down, and the sound moves to the front, and the audience might not even be aware of it, but you're using the movie theater as a tool to help you create the emotion of of the story.

10:28

So, and that that can happen within a story as well.

10:30

You know, I did Legion, which was a comic book genre show, and because there was this surrealism built into it because you know, when we first meet him, he's in a psychiatric hospital, and we don't know if he has these powers or if he's crazy.

10:48

You know, now you can use that so that the audience isn't sure either, right?

10:51

And as he becomes more sure, we become more sure.

10:55

But, because it's a heightened genre, I could say, "Well, this is the episode where David is trapped in his mind, and Syd is out trying to figure out which ones of his memories are real, you know?

11:05

And he can end up sitting in an ice cube with Jemaine Clement, and you know, you you can personify things that in a straight drama you you couldn't do, right?

11:14

If I go back to you were a writer on Bones.

11:20

Like, I used to watch Bones because it was Fox, and I loved House, and I loved 24, and Prison Break.

11:26

So, I just watched a lot of Fox growing up.

11:29

I remember, you know, I'd sit down, I'd watch Bones, and it was like appointment television, right?

11:33

And so, we'd sit down, we'd sit through the commercials, and same thing with movies, right?

11:37

I'd go to the theater, you talk about what do you take for granted in theater, another thing is someone's just going to be there the whole time.

11:42

That's very different from now I'm watching on YouTube, I'm watching on Netflix, on my phone.

11:47

So, from like a tactics of storytelling perspective, how do you feel like you approach the craft differently now because of where media and the way that we consume things is at now?

11:59

You know, there there was this phenomenon that was referred to as peak television, right?

12:05

Which was, you know, probably 2018 2019, we had gone from 250 shows on the air to 500, right?

12:12

Like literally they'd we doubled the >> [snorts] >> the amount of story that we were pumping out to audiences.

12:20

And we had all these new platforms, AMC and network and and you know, Amazon got in and we had so many platforms, and the only way that garner an audience was to try to make something different and better, right?

12:35

So, you end up with a lot of experimentation that was going on both with genre and and form.

12:40

You you got all the Genji Cohen shows, you got a lot of stuff where, you know, Netflix is trying to they're trying to be splashy, and so they're doing something challenging or different, and and the same with all of them.

12:53

And so, as a as a storyteller, it's a great place to be cuz I said, "Oh, different and better, I can do that, right?"

13:00

But, as a result, you get a lot more room to experiment.

13:02

And, you know, Legion is the perfect example of that.

13:05

I mean, it it really was the a very surreal comic um you know, inspired by sort of old British comedy and television and and um you know, there were a lot of elements to it that that were not played straight.

13:24

And I you know, I once said to the network like you're asking me to compete with some very deep pockets at a certain point what the show costs can't be my first priority, right?

13:34

You want to win those awards.

13:36

You're going against HBO and all those people.

13:38

And so we were in this moment where you know, the fourth season of Fargo um was was maximized.

13:45

And this is what you're This was 2019 going into 2020.

13:48

So, instead of 10 episodes we did 11.

13:51

The shortest one was like 55 minutes long compared to season 5 when I came back to it and I and I thought, well, that's not where people's attention span is.

14:02

They want you know, I I I was like I'm going to make concentrated Fargo now.

14:06

It's no episodes longer than 44 minutes.

14:08

You know, we're not playing around experimenting in the same way.

14:13

I mean, I still had like a 10-minute puppet show, you know, in an episode, but but it was much more concentrated and and and verb driven and you know, action oriented because that's It's sort of where my head was as a viewer as well, which is I loved all the experimentation.

14:31

Now I just want a great story well told. >> Right.

14:35

When you say verb driven, so that's verb driven as opposed to what? Things happen.

14:39

Things happen. Yeah, you know, as as opposed to um you know, you a lot of shots of clouds and and episodes in which um you know, you're spending a lot of time with characters and but at the end of it you think I don't think anything happened this

14:57

week that's that moved the story forward in a way and you know, I think I think there's a certainly a place for those those shows and those movies where where it's more experiential and more anecdotal and you know, it doesn't have to be a page turner, a plot plot driven, you know. Are there

15:14

Are there shows, movies where not a lot happens that you really like that have done well. Uh yeah, I think so.

15:24

I mean, you could argue that Mad Men was a show in in which very little happened, you know?

15:31

Or even The Sopranos was a show in which very little happened for a very long time, and then when it did, it felt like explosive, right?

15:38

Because I mean, E pluribus is a perfect example of a show from this last year that Vince Gilligan made.

15:45

Not a lot happened in that show week in, week out, and and you know, that's his pace of storytelling.

15:53

You know, a guy comes home and opens the mail in Breaking Bad, and and and it they shoot it in the one hour and the camera's on him, and the critical thing that comes in the mail is not the first envelope, it's not the third envelope, it's not the fifth envelope, it's the seventh envelope, right?

16:07

And you know, because you're lingering on this shot that something's in that mail, but he's not giving it to you. He's making you earn it.

16:16

How is character and storytelling different as you think about movies and TV?

16:21

I mean, even as a kid loving Lost, it was very clear to me that J. J.

16:26

Abrams kind of made this show breakout hit.

16:29

It's very coherent at the beginning, and you then begin to get the sense of, "Oh my goodness, this thing is crushing.

16:35

What are we going to do with it?" Yeah.

16:38

>> And it begins to kind of devolve at the end.

16:41

These crazy things happen. Oh my goodness.

16:43

But movies aren't like that at all.

16:45

Movies, the start, the finish, you have it planned.

16:47

So, talk to me about kind of that moment in the show when you're like, "Wow, this is doing better than I thought.

16:52

We got to keep this going."

16:54

Yeah, I mean, that was the thing with with Lost, and you know, I've talked to Damon Lindelof about it years back, and you know, the problem was is that they wouldn't give him an end date.

17:06

And he had Well, for the show.

17:06

Yeah, they because it was such a huge hit, they basically didn't want it to end, and he's like, "But I have a finite amount of story, and unless I know where I am in the story, I don't know what to do.

17:16

And so, by the third season of Lost, like characters are literally trapped in a cage. Right.

17:24

>> Because he doesn't know how much runway he has to to land this plane. You know what I mean?

17:28

So, so that that's part of it, right?

17:30

Is and and you know, luckily I I I have the ability to decide how long the show is um based on how much story I have working at at FX.

17:43

And you know, I I sold Fargo to them as an anthology, which meant that every season is a totally new story.

17:51

And the first year was such a success that I expected them to say, "What about two seasons with that cast and those characters?"

17:58

But they they didn't, so they're to their credit.

17:59

And And so, you know, I know where the ending is, right?

18:06

And I always feel like the ending of a story is what gives the story meaning.

18:10

And so, if you don't know how it ends or where where it ends, how do you know what story you're telling on some level?

18:16

So, You just see it over and over again with TV shows. People love the show.

18:22

They don't like the ending. Yeah.

18:22

Maybe it dragged on too long, and they kind of leave with a sour taste in their mouth.

18:28

Well, you know, I I I haven't done a lot of recurring shows.

18:32

I did Legion, but that sort of was reinvented every year.

18:33

And so, it's a little bit odd to me.

18:38

You know, I always have this moment where I was like, "So, it's the same characters, just different stories?"

18:41

That's just a weird thing to do.

18:41

Like, I'm so used to wrapping it up at the end of the the first season.

18:49

And so, you know, I'm working on the second season of Alien Earth now.

18:54

And I had this thought about television, which is, you know, when you start out in the first year of a show, you are you you come up with a story, and then you populate it with characters that are meaningful to that story, right?

19:08

And so, you tell that story, and then you go into a second season and now you have all these characters that you have to service because they're in the show, right?

19:17

And so rather than tell you an another chapter of the story and and sort of go, "Well, it's not really relevant to these these characters so I can just broom them out."

19:29

People tend to have to service these characters so that's why you watch these shows and you're like, "What is this C story with this romance thing that I don't care about but it's and it's in there simply because they're like, I don't know what to do with these two actors.

19:43

I have to come up with a story."

19:46

And so I I just sort of refuse to do that because I don't think that's what good storytelling is.

19:52

You know, it's better come up with your second season, figure out which one of those which of those characters really fit into it and for the others if they're not there or you're pausing on them for a season or maybe they come in later, you know, the best thing for the story is to tell a great story.

20:10

But if you feel like you have to service all the characters then then, you know, it kind of hamstrings you.

20:15

Yeah, I mean you're almost in a prison of your own creation.

20:18

And that's where the longevity of the show starts to work against you in a way because you know, there's something organic to the first season and then by the third or fourth or fifth year you're like, I feel like they're just treading water here.

20:33

You know, a movie is I always look at the structure of a movie is like a pyramid, right?

20:37

At the at the base you have all this room to play with introducing characters and themes and things but the closer you get to the end of the story the less room you have, right?

20:49

And so what's always interesting to me about long form, you know, a an anthology show, a 10-hour movie is that I still have room all the way to the end to tell the parts of the story that wouldn't fit into the movie, right?

21:06

Because you got to get to the point in a movie, right?

21:08

Literally to the point and and you know, in a show it's like you can digress.

21:13

You can have a whole episode from now from the villain's point of view and change the dynamic and and everything.

21:19

And in movies it's a lot harder. Right.

21:24

Can you help me to appreciate horror?

21:24

I do not like horror at all.

21:26

I never watch horror movies.

21:29

When I was a kid, I'd get really scared.

21:30

Like I remember watching 101 Dalmatians as a kid and having nightmares about Cruella DeVil.

21:35

I've had 50 nightmares about Cruella DeVil.

21:37

Like she was just terrifying to me.

21:39

And I remember there was a movie I watched when I was, I don't know, I must have been 6 or 7 years old.

21:44

I went to go see Clockstoppers. Okay.

21:45

And I was 15 minutes into the movie in the theater and I was so scared that I left.

21:49

And I remember just like huffing and puffing.

21:53

And I was like, this is not my thing. I don't like horror.

21:55

I don't like scary movies.

21:57

Um but it's clearly a genre that you love, that you appreciate.

22:02

What is it that you see about horror that I'm probably blind to?

22:06

Well, what's interesting about it is that it it is in many ways the most cinematic genre because most horror is not about dialogue, right?

22:13

It's it's about those long moments in which the camera is lingering on something, right?

22:20

It's very it's super visual and it's And the other thing is it it produces the biggest emotion, which is fear, for the least amount of money because it's relying on your imagination to do most of the work, right?

22:36

What's I don't She's sitting there, her back is to that door, it's dark in that doorway. What is back there?

22:43

I'm not happy right now, right?

22:45

Or what's in the basement?

22:47

Don't go in the basement.

22:47

Like you know, the the thing about horror is that that it it it engages the audience viscerally in a way that almost no other medium does, right?

22:58

And so I appreciate it on that level and I appreciate it on the cinematic level.

23:05

Um you know, I think that that constraints on a storyteller are are often lead to real innovation in storytelling, and you know, horror is sort of by definition a low-budget medium often where you have you're you have one location. You have this house.

23:24

What can we do in this house, right?

23:26

And so, you end up with a lot of really inventive filmmaking and storytelling as well.

23:32

Um And then, you know, the other thing for me is that you know, there's a reason that Jordan Peele was so successful in comedy and horror, which is that comedy and horror are the same. Huh.

23:43

It's just tension, tension, tension, release, right?

23:45

And whether it's the punchline or the sight gag, or whether it's the the whatever comes out of the basement comes out of the basement, there's an uncomfortableness.

23:58

If you rewatch Key and Peele, it's just horror, right?

24:01

It's but they're just they're playing the funny side of it, right?

24:05

So, that those are some of the reasons that I like it.

24:09

Can you tell me about how you create that tension in horror?

24:11

Like, do you it seems like there's the tool of pacing, so that's over time, and then there's what kind of comes through. So, that would be sound. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or the lack of sound.

24:25

Or feeling forward, yeah. >> Um color. Mhm.

24:30

Deep blues and purples and kind of like blood red.

24:33

What are the different tools that you have?

24:36

I mean, yeah, again, it's the imagination.

24:38

If you can trigger the audience's imagination, um you know, patience.

24:43

You know, when you linger on a shot, right?

24:46

Um a wide shot of a room, and there's a character who's, you know, sitting at a table, and you can see what they can't see cuz their back is turned and you just sit on that shot.

25:00

And as the audience member you're like, I know I'm here for a reason.

25:01

I know there's something in this frame, right, that I need to see.

25:05

And so you start to work yourself up of like what you know, you start to get worried, you start to get nervous.

25:10

My my daughter is 18 now, but she since she was 12 or 13, she loved horror and we we would watch a lot of horror and I was always trying to scare her and she was very hard to scare.

25:24

But we finally we watched Paranormal Activity which they made for $15,000.

25:31

Um and it's it's basically just just shot on a on a video camera and it's it's this, you know, husband and wife and he you know, he buys this video camera cuz there's something weird going on in the house and it's it's innovation, right?

25:45

As talking about horror and innovation is that they set up the camera to watch them while they're asleep. Mhm.

25:50

And so you're looking at the bed and they're asleep and there's a door to the hall that's open for some reason, right?

25:56

Who sleeps with the door open to the hall, but they do.

26:00

And you're just watching and they'll they'll fast forward through, but then you're just watching them sleep.

26:06

And it makes you feel it makes you think about how vulnerable you are when you sleep. Right.

26:10

Right, and you're just laying there for 8 hours.

26:13

Anything could happen, anyone could walk in, etc.

26:15

And it it it got her because it wasn't trying to scare her, it was just showing her how vulnerable she is 8 hours of the day, you know.

26:24

And and she didn't know what was going to happen and and and the camera is just objectively recording and you know, like a sheet will be pulled back by some unseen force or something minor will happen, but because your stress level is elevated, it has a real impact.

26:45

>> Yeah, the word that's coming to mind for me is subtlety, right?

26:46

Cuz your stress levels elevated and so your senses are kind of awakened, right?

26:51

Little sounds, whatever it is.

26:54

Oh my goodness, what is that?

26:56

And so, you don't need as much of anything to happen in order to create effect.

27:01

Yeah, and and so, and that's different than almost every other form of of storytelling, you know, because you're you got to leave space.

27:08

And so, when I'm you know, it was a sort of constant struggle on on Alien Earth, um you know, to leave that space because there's there's so much that's going on, character and dialogue, and you know, even the action of like, "Oh, the creature's out."

27:27

And you know, but to then build this moment where there's silence and just behind them you see this cabinet drawer just sliding on its own, right?

27:34

You have to be aware that that to the audience who's looking at that frame, and if they see movement out of the corner of their eye, their their adrenaline's going to spike, right?

27:44

So, so you got to leave room for that.

27:46

And you know, as a filmmaker, I can make myself feel every emotion except fear. Right?

27:55

Because I know what's going to happen. Right?

27:57

I can I can get choked up at the emotional parts of the script that I wrote, right?

28:02

If the actors are good enough and the the music is right, and I can feel the adrenaline of the action, or I can laugh at the comedy, etc.

28:10

, but but what I can't do is feel the suspense on some level because I know how it pays off and where it pays off.

28:18

And so, that's what you have to rely on an audience for.

28:20

That's why you you would test something is to go, "Oh, yeah, they they they want more of this anticipation before like, I'll get a bigger jump if I wait a few seconds longer, or I've waited too long and now they're shifting around and I've lost them, you know."

28:39

>> I test something, what does that mean?

28:40

Well, you know, you'll >> people into the theater, showing it to them.

28:44

>> just show your your or or whatever, you you know, you sort of want to watch an audience watch it. Yeah.

28:49

You know, and you know, you do these test screenings for shows and movies and and that experience of sitting in a theater with people, that's the valuable part and then they do these focus groups after that that uh that nobody enjoys, you know, and >> [laughter] >> and and you know, there's sort of three types of people.

29:07

There's people who loved it, there's the people who liked it but thought it could be better and then there's people who hated it.

29:15

And I've never understood why you include people who hated it in the focus group. They hate it.

29:19

You're never going to win them over, right?

29:21

But they do it because the studio has a point of view, right?

29:26

There're things they don't like about your movie and if they can include people in the group who also didn't like that thing, then they go, "See, nobody liked it."

29:33

You're like, "Well, that person just hated the movie.

29:34

I I could change the thing you're talking about and they would still hate the movie, you know." >> Exactly. Scripts. Mhm.

29:41

If you're writing a dialogue-heavy script versus a horror script, how does that script show up differently?

29:49

Cuz it seems like what's different about a movie script, I mean, you would know better than me, but what are you trying to achieve?

29:54

Because it's not just words, but you're trying to basically help the reader visualize what's there. Yeah.

30:01

So, how is it different between genres?

30:06

Well, I don't know that that I mean, the way that I write them is not is not different.

30:11

You know, I I write the movie the way I see it.

30:12

I mean, I sort of watch it in my mind while I'm writing it.

30:15

So, so, you know, as I'm describing the scene, it will say, you know, angle on him as he crosses the room, close-up on the glass.

30:25

You know, I'm I'm I'm trying to help you visualize the story as you're reading it.

30:33

Um both because I I just find it that that it's a better communication tool that way.

30:42

You know, I tend to write things that I that that I make, you know, so I write them the way that I'm going to make them and then when I hire department heads and you know, people to build the sets and all that, they can see very literally what how I'm going to shoot it on some way.

30:58

So it's a good communication device there.

31:04

You know, but the other thing is you know, whenever you are asking someone to interact with your story, um studio or actors or whatever, you want the experience of that to feel like the story.

31:15

You want You want the experience of So if you have like an irreverent comedy that you're writing, well, that your outline better be irreverent Yeah. and comedic, right?

31:25

You know, your pitch in the room, you know, I did this pitch once where I went in and uh you know, you always have the small talk in the room, water water, small talk, small talk and then at a certain point You get into it.

31:41

you have to segue into the pitch, right?

31:43

And so I said, you know, I was thinking on the way over here about the segue, how I'm going to get into the pitch.

31:48

And I was thinking about maybe I would start by telling you how my house was broken into a few weeks back and they stole these guitars.

31:53

Then I thought, well, no, maybe I'll talk about how I was watching TV the other night and Stripes was on and I thought, oh, we don't really have those kind of 70s Bill Murray anti-hero movies anymore and I talked about like a few other segues that I could have done.

32:09

And at this point, the executives are like, what is happening?

32:13

Like no one ever talks about the segue, right? And so >> wall.

32:17

Yeah, so I had immediately had their attention because I was doing something different >> Right. >> than everybody else.

32:22

And then at a certain point they realized, oh, the segue is the pitch.

32:25

It's a crime story about a Bill Murray anti-hero, you know, in a very 70s style.

32:31

And by but and by pitching it the way that I pitched it, you know, they could see the tone that the show would have because the pitch had the same tone, right?

32:41

So, it's all writing, you know what I mean?

32:45

And and you know, I I like to say you know, the key to success is you got to be good enough to get in the room, right? That's talent.

32:55

You got to be good in the room, that's this ability to tell a story, right?

33:00

And you got to deliver when you leave the room.

33:03

I told you that I was going to write a show based on the movie Fargo and it was going to feel like Fargo when you watched it, etc. and I delivered, right?

33:10

So, if you can do those three things, then then you're going to have a career.

33:16

First drafts, you rip through them.

33:16

Why is it that you do that?

33:20

I mean, it just comes out at the speed.

33:22

Like I said, I see it and so I write it and And how do you structure your life in order to do that?

33:26

Do you basically just sit down for however long and write, I don't know, 100 pages to just get it all Yeah, it depends.

33:32

I mean, you know, with fiction, you know, I would tend to have I'd have an idea for a for a book and then I'd have a certain period of time, 3 months or whatever, between shows or and and I would sit down and I would try to write as much as possible in those 3 months.

33:54

You know, if I had a if I ended up with 100 pages or 110 pages, you you need enough so that when you if you don't go back to that book for 3 years, you you can see exactly what you were doing.

34:05

You're like, "Oh, I see what the voice is, I see what the characters are, the structural conceits, I see what where I was going."

34:12

>> There's enough there there.

34:13

>> Yeah, if you only write 25 pages, you're like, "Ah, I lost it.

34:15

I don't know what it was, right?"

34:16

And so, it is a kind of sprint to get it down and then um but with you know, with the scripts, I just have fun doing it is the other thing, you know?

34:27

You talk I'm sure you've talked to a bunch of writers who who almost hate the writing process or they can only manage you know if they sit in there at their desk for 4 hours they can get one page written or something.

34:41

I don't know if there's a craft in the world that so many people who do it consistently and at a high level >> Yeah.

34:48

>> hate as much as writing.

34:50

>> I know but I but it's tough right because you know I would say if you get to do what you love for a living you got to love doing it.

34:59

Otherwise you're just an [ __ ] right?

35:01

Like everyone else is trying so hard to live their dreams and if you get to live the dream I I think you got to take some joy joy in it right? >> So for you it's fun.

35:09

Oh yeah it's a lot of fun and you know I I meet a lot of people who who don't feel that way right?

35:15

But I'm and I love all the parts the job.

35:17

I like the team sport of production but I really love you know being at that desk with with those words and and chasing the story.

35:26

And help me visualize what that's like when you have the idea the premise the the driving question.

35:32

So that pops in your mind and then you're trying to get enough there there that you can return to it 3 months 3 years later.

35:40

So walk me through the process of the initial conception to there's now enough on the page that I can step away from it for a while.

35:48

Um yeah so I wrote a book called The Good Father.

35:51

Um there was a writer strike in Hollywood in 2007 and my daughter had just been born and it was like a 3-month strike and we drove from LA to Austin and and you know we we we were there for for 2 and 1/2 months and I thought I mean I suppose most people would have said oh this is a great opportunity to take a break but not me.

36:14

I thought oh what can I accomplish in this time and so because I just had a kid like a lot of new parents I was like I was sort of focused on what could go wrong right?

36:27

Like you have this kind of like, how do you baby proof your life or And so, you know, I had this story in mind about this this, you know, man, he's a doctor, he's on his second marriage, and the you know, he's making dinner with his new family one night and the doorbell rings and and someone has shot a presidential candidate and the suspect is his son from his first marriage, right?

36:47

And so, now he's going He's both going back to figure out what What did I do wrong?

36:55

Could I have been a better father?

36:55

He's also trying to prove his son innocent.

36:58

But because he's a a doctor, you know, rheumatologist who's sort of the doctor of last resort where where when you really can't figure out a medical mystery, they go and they look at all the systems of the body.

37:09

And so, I thought, "Oh, it'll be interesting if he does these case studies, right?"

37:12

He looks at Sirhan Sirhan or John Hinckley or these other guys.

37:18

He's like, "Is that my son?

37:20

Is my son Jared Loughner?

37:20

Is my son, you know, any of these these three name shooters, right?"

37:26

Um and so, the book has both the fictional narrative and then it has these chapters that are all about Sirhan Sirhan and the shooting of of RFK Sr.

37:36

and, you know, cuz he's trying to look at at these cases and see if he recognizes his own child in there.

37:45

And I thought that was really interesting for me to mix fiction and and non-fiction in a way, but I needed to get enough deep enough into the story itself and then get two or three of those sort of chapters written so that later when I came back, I would understand what the drive was.

38:05

It seems like with AI, the party line in Hollywood is basically like, "No, AI is bad. We will not use it. It's killing creativity.

38:12

Uh it's going to take our jobs."

38:14

In what way do you agree with the party line and in what way do you see things differently?

38:20

What I mean, it on some level it depends on on the ambition of the storytelling, right? And how formulaic it is.

38:28

I would say there's that there's some you know, how many seasons of Law & Order are there?

38:32

I would imagine that AI could write a Law & Order script that you probably couldn't tell the difference, right?

38:38

Because there's hundreds of hours.

38:40

It's so trainable and there's such a formula right to that show, right?

38:45

And and it's not it doesn't have a inventive creative ambition to it. You know what I mean?

38:52

It's a procedural in a way in which um you know, which which sort of has this uh comforting sameness from week to week, right?

39:05

Um but if you're asking it to invent something or be playful with something or innovate with something, I I don't know that I'm worried about that, right?

39:15

Um now it's a tool like any other tool, right?

39:22

I mean, it's we used to talk about visual effects, right?

39:25

As as, you know, ruining cinema, right?

39:28

You know, I mean, you think about the original Star Wars and they did these matte paintings and they'd build these models and they'd literally just fly these ships around and then as visual effects got better and better, you know, you started to have fully CG worlds.

39:44

>> Avatar and James Cameron.

39:45

>> Yeah, and and so and no one thinks that's cheating anymore on on some level.

39:49

So it's a tool, you know, I've talked to someone who is using AI for for de-aging actors instead of using visual effects because visual effects is not good at it and AI is better at just sort of Right.

40:04

feed in a lot of photos of Tom Hanks as a younger man and then it'll it'll do it, right?

40:10

>> Button there were a few parts of that movie when I didn't feel like they quite got it right.

40:14

Yeah, and that could have definitely been done better.

40:15

Yeah, and so again, it's a tool and if if we use it as a tool, then I think it it has a lot of uses.

40:21

I mean, I I I I wouldn't use it to write for me, but but I do use it for productivity to some level and and if I am in a place where I need you know, where I want to you know, sort of help me think about do some research or help me think about the story and I can kind of bounce back and forth.

40:46

I I end up telling the story, but but it's a it's a mechanism, you know, to it's not a blank page, right?

40:51

And I I think that the blank page is really intimidating to a lot of people.

40:55

And and I get Yeah, I guess I'm used to rewriting writers also, so there is a sense that like you're going to give me the material.

41:03

I'm going to go, "Oh, that's not right.

41:04

Here's how I would do it differently." Right?

41:05

And so seeing it done wrong can also trigger Right?

41:12

Now you Now you're like, "Oh, I see how I would >> do it.

41:15

I did I didn't know how I'd do it before, but now I see how you did it."

41:18

And I was like, "Yeah, it shouldn't be like that. It should be like this."

41:20

>> Isn't it funny how often that happens where you're like, "Ah, I got a vision for what this is going to be like." Okay, explain it to me.

41:24

"I can't explain it to you."

41:26

Okay, show me three things. >> Yeah.

41:28

Okay, that's wrong in this way.

41:30

That's wrong in this way.

41:30

That's wrong in that way.

41:31

Okay, now I know exactly what I want and I can explain what's wrong with each of these things. >> Yeah.

41:37

You know, we're all trying to move these businesses into the future, right?

41:42

Fiction, you know, how's how is How are people going to read novels in 10 years from now, 20 years from now?

41:48

What does a novel need to be 20 years from now to be commercial, to be, you know, and and because we want to do our art as a profession, you got to think about it, right?

42:00

Not how do I make something commercial, but how do I think about an audience, you know, a readership, a a viewership, you know, as I talked about how in 2018 I I made a season of Fargo that that, you know, was 60-minute episodes because the audience they wanted more, right?

42:21

And then in 2024, I made much shorter, more concise because that's where I felt like the audience was.

42:29

I love both of those seasons.

42:31

I think they're both great seasons, but but I was aware of the fact that that people's attention span shift and you know, you have to you have to be aware of the moment that you're working in and the moment that's coming as well.

42:47

You're talking about the audience, and I'm curious to hear on what level, if you almost have duality here, on what level are you like I am the creator here, I am the director, this is my vision, and I'm going to take that vision and put it into the world.

43:02

We'll see if people like it.

43:03

And on the other hand, all the way on the other side of the spectrum, it's like kind of maybe like Law & Order or something.

43:09

It's like, this is a product, we're going to give something that is predictably excellent, and I'm going to be very cognizant of what the audience wants.

43:17

You have to be aware of it no matter what.

43:20

Whether you choose to cater to an audience or not is your decision, but part of it also is is that this process of making corporate art, right?

43:31

Television or or film, where, you know, it costs 40, 50, 100, 200 million dollars to make something, right?

43:39

So, so so you're working with a corporation and and and they their driving motivation is to turn a profit. Of course. >> Right?

43:51

To turn a profit through the art that you're making, you know, how do we how do we game the risk-reward of it so that there's more reward than risk, right?

44:03

And you You my job as as a storyteller who is who is concerned both with commercial success, but also I want to experiment. I want to challenge you.

44:14

I want to take you to places that you didn't think you were going to go, etc.

44:19

I have to gain that with them to go like, "Well, I'm the safest risk that you'll take because I will experiment and play and give you that original thing, but I'm going to bring it in on time and on budget and and you know, and but they worry.

44:38

You know, I mean every season of Fargo that I make then I always get the same note.

44:42

It just doesn't feel like last time. Mhm. Right?

44:43

And you're like, "Well, yeah, it's a totally different [laughter] story, but I understand where the note comes from in a way because and especially going into that second season, which is arguably people's favorite, you know, 1979 American crime epic.

44:57

You know, I went from season 1, which was a literal kind of one-to-one, the car salesman is an insurance salesman scale down um story to season 2, which was more of an American crime epic and about the rise of corporate America and the death of the family business, etc.

45:17

And they're like, "Well, how is this a Fargo?" Right?

45:18

And I was like, "No, no, no, you're going to feel all the same feelings that you felt watching season 1 and watching the movie.

45:24

Um they're just going to happen in different places for different reasons, etc.

45:30

But until you show them, they they don't get it.

45:34

Yeah, Derek Thompson he writes at the Atlantic, one of my very favorite journalists.

45:38

He has this idea called most advanced yet acceptable, which is basically when creative work works, it has to be beyond where we currently are.

45:49

Something needs to change, but if it changes too much, people kind of don't have the receptors for it.

45:55

But if it doesn't change enough, there's not novelty, and then it's just a little bit boring.

45:58

And then a lot of creative creative work is just pushing the limits, whether it's see the difference between season 3 and season 4, whether it's launching a new product into the world.

46:08

It's getting the right amount of difference in terms of what it is they're doing so that it can actually resonate. >> Yeah.

46:17

You know, what I one of the things I enjoyed most about the Daniels movie Everything Everywhere All at Once >> Yeah.

46:23

was how mad it made people in Hollywood. Hmm.

46:26

>> Because there wasn't there were no takeaways.

46:28

There was nothing you could take from that movie where you're like, oh, if we just copied this we'd have a we we'd have the next biggest Oscar-winning movie of all time, right?

46:38

It was such a unicorn and it and it won so so many things.

46:42

It ran the table and people didn't know how to repeat it, you know?

46:46

Hollywood is a place in which people are always running to where lightning just struck. >> That is so true.

46:53

>> Their takeaway is never, well, maybe if we made something as original Yeah. right?

46:57

We would be as successful.

46:59

Instead, they're like, well, what was what could we copy about that that we could then, you know, coattail that to our own success of something else?

47:07

And and it's you know, I mean, look, I I have built a career in television mostly on adapting existing IP, right? Fargo or Alien. Legion is a comic book. Right?

47:23

But but I also feel like I built a reputation as an original storyteller and that seems weird. Right?

47:30

How could both of those things be true?

47:33

>> Yeah, at the same time, except I always try to bring as the same level of originality to a Fargo as I would if I had just made the story up myself because in many ways I have, right?

47:45

I've I'm using the title.

47:48

I'm using a kind of tone of voice that the Coen brothers have and I and and I'm availing myself of the facets of comedy and and violence and philosophy spiritualism that run undercurrents that run through their work.

48:05

You know, which is a you know, it's a recipe in which you can change every time you can change you know, how much of the comedy you use versus how much of the violence you use versus how philosophical is it?

48:17

How much about Judaism is it?

48:19

You know, all those elements um in different measure create a totally different experience, but it's still the same thing at its heart.

48:27

You got me thinking about the process of consuming art as changing your sense of what's possible, right?

48:38

So we're talking about Memento.

48:40

What if you told a detective story back to front instead of front to back?

48:41

You talk about Benjamin Button. He looks at the F.

48:45

Scott Fitzgerald story Eric Roth and he says, "Okay, from that story it's it's decent story, but what if somebody ages backwards?" Right.

48:52

And there's Everything Everywhere All at Once.

48:56

It's this new way of making a film.

48:58

How did Don DeLillo do that with White Noise for you?

49:04

It seems like that's a lot of what that novel did.

49:06

It was like, "Wow, this awakens something unlocks something in me."

49:12

Yeah, I mean I was a huge reader all through childhood um but you know, I I and I started out um you know, reading a lot of science fiction.

49:22

fiction. There was a down on 8th Avenue there was a science fiction bookstore when I was growing up and I'd go down there and you know, it was all the Robert Heinlein and Edgar Rice Burroughs and all the classic, you know, Asimov all the all that stuff and and but I was also listening to like a lot of

49:39

British comedy records cuz my dad had had uh studied overseas and he brought home a lot of these old Goon Show records and Firesign Theatre and and you know, Monty Python was on and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy it had come out so and then of course there's the New York tone of voice, right? If

49:55

If you grow up in New York, right? The way of talking.

49:59

You know, it's it's there's a wise guy, you know, attitude, right?

50:03

And the thing with DeLillo is he's so New York, right?

50:08

He he he he he encapsulates that that humor on the one hand and but he he's also um you know, I had never really read anything before I read that book that that was meta in a way, right?

50:24

And and you know, White Noise was sort of the first novel that came out like '84 that was talking about consumerism and and pop culture and and you know, there's a moment in that book in which, you know, the father goes in he's turns off the lights and and the young girl is talking in her sleep and he leans close to her to hear what she's saying and she's saying Toyota Celica over and over again, right?

50:53

Like he he kind of created this uh this metaness this driving thematic that the book was so thematic in in many ways that expanded my concept of what a book could be.

51:07

Oh, it's not just a story, right? It's about something.

51:11

It's it has a point of view.

51:13

It's talking about he's a professor of Hitler studies and he's talking about all plots lead toward death and and you know, these bigger ideas that that you know, I hit at the right age where I thought, "Oh, I want I want to write bigger ideas also, you know." >> Yeah.

51:33

And when you look at DeLillo, what did he teach you about storytelling versus someone like Kurt Vonnegut?

51:40

Yeah, I mean that they're both playful, right?

51:42

I mean, but Vonnegut is you know, I went back and reread a lot of Vonnegut before I was writing this last book, Anthem.

51:51

Cuz cuz I don't know how he did that, you know?

51:53

I mean, he and he's the only one who's ever done it really is that is that he's he manages to tell these, you know, to write a book like Slaughterhouse-Five about his World War II experience, but but do it with the conceit that his main character has come unstuck in time and that he's bouncing around without any control from these moments in his life.

52:17

And now he's in the war, and now he's after the war, and and um and he's also but Vonnegut is also a character in his own book.

52:25

He's narrating his own book and talking about you know, the experience in the war.

52:31

And and you know, he'll bring in he has this he invented the science fiction writer Kilgore Trout, you know, and and and he's he's he's he he's doing so many cross-genre things that shouldn't work. >> But it does.

52:46

But not only does it work, he also has this this this very simple morality to him that feels important and meaningful.

52:56

And so, I thought, well, how you know, I wanted to to understand better how to do that because I found myself as a narrator in my own book, and I wanted to understand how where the lines could be on some level, you know?

53:13

I mean, we don't know how to do anything until we learn, right?

53:14

And I don't have a a degree. I didn't get an MFA.

53:19

I never went to film school.

53:19

You know, I learned to write books by writing a terrible book, and then writing a less terrible book, right?

53:25

And reading and reading and reading, and you know, you learn on the job.

53:30

And as if you learn on the job, you got to be willing to accept the fact that that it's going to be a process to get you to a place where the work is great.

53:37

I don't see this with every writer, but it is one of the most common themes that I see for people who come on How I Write is basically this.

53:47

You see something, it moves you to awe.

53:50

Wow, okay, what's going on there?

53:50

Look, look, look, try to integrate, doesn't work.

53:55

Look, look, look, try to integrate, figure it out.

53:57

Do that over and over and over again.

54:00

And over time, you begin to understand what other people are doing, but strangely develop your own style by integrating the works of people who've moved you.

54:13

Yeah, it's you know, you're synthesizing all of your what are really unique inspirations, you know, the fact that I had the science fiction that that I loved as a kid, but I also loved British comedy.

54:26

Like, that's not necessarily something that a New York kid would have, right?

54:31

And then but then also the the New York comedy, that other side of my family, right?

54:35

The the Jewish Long Island side, the Mel Brooks side, the you know, and now So now, okay, so now these are two different types of comedy, but here's where they they synthesize for me, or here's the absurdism or or the surrealism of the fact that the first movie I ever saw in a movie theater was 2001 A Space Odyssey.

54:57

I was 7 years old, right?

54:57

And and you know, I remember sitting in that theater and and I don't know what was going on in that movie, but I was fascinated.

55:07

I mean, I'd never seen anything that big before, and you start with Neanderthals, and then you're in space, and it's like for a kid, you're like, what is this amazing movie?

55:18

And yeah, it's slow, it's paced slow, but but and so when you start to tell your own stories, you're drawing from all of these places.

55:30

You know, one of the first writing assignments that I remember in high school was we were reading Catch 22, the Joseph Heller book, which is you know, he invented that phrase Catch 22 about, you know, the irony of of if

55:46

you're a World War pilot and you want to get out of flying missions because it's too dangerous and so you tell them that you're crazy, they go, "Well, the fact that you want to get out of these missions proves that you're not crazy. But if you were crazy, you'd want to fly

56:00

But if you were crazy, you'd want to fly these missions and so either way you're fucked." Right.

56:03

And so there's a humor to that, right?

56:05

There's there's a there's a satire, etc.

56:07

And so we had this assignment which was write your own chapter of Catch 22.

56:12

Pick a character and write a new chapter for Catch 22. >> voice?

56:17

Yeah, in the voice of the book, right?

56:19

And and and I loved that assignment and in many ways looking back, you know, after having done Fargo and Alien, it's like, oh, that's it was the same thing.

56:29

It was like, what is it about this book, the the the style of it, the humor of it, the themes of it that I was able to access and channel, right?

56:40

What is that skill to be able to do that, right?

56:46

Which is to take the spirit of a thing, not to copy the thing, but to go, what what how is he able to do this and how could I also do it?

56:53

Yeah, and I like voice cuz it's definitely there.

56:55

It's obviously a thing, but it is not the kind of thing that's just handed to you on a platter.

57:00

It requires looking and feeling and reflecting.

57:02

Yeah, I mean the thing with the Coen brothers was that you know, they write a lot of movies that they don't direct and those movies never feel like Coen brothers movies.

57:09

So there has to be something in the translation from the page to the screen that that completes that that voice of of Coen, right?

57:18

And so my job wasn't just to write in their voice, which I was able to do, but then I had to and part of it was understanding that comedy and horror are the same, right?

57:31

Part of it was understanding that Anton Chigurh's haircut is hysterical, and yet to the audience it's just weird and unsettling, and why does he look like that?

57:40

Does he know he looks like that?

57:42

Like, it makes him scarier on some level that he has this stupid Prince Valiant haircut, right?

57:47

And I know they laughed at his face after they gave it to him, but it's not comedy in the movie.

57:51

So, there's something in that gray area between farce and horror that is Coen, right?

57:59

And so, how do I channel that?

58:02

One difference between humor and horror is that whether I'm watching something alone, I think I still feel the same experience of fear.

58:16

But, I laugh way harder when I watch a movie with other people. Yeah.

58:20

It's like a shared experience of laughter and it all kind of builds up like a crescendo.

58:25

Versus a lot of times when I'm watching something alone, it's actually only in retrospect or when I'm talking to someone, I'll be like, "Oh, yeah, that was funny." Yeah.

58:31

Yeah, I mean it's I mean, the shared fear experience though does elevate it as well, right?

58:39

Because >> all scared together.

58:40

Yeah, and so much of horror is silence, and and then if there's a jump and people around you scream, and you know, you're just the stress level in the room Right. >> rises and rises.

58:49

But, yeah, I mean, there's definitely horror movies that I've watched alone during the day and had to pause to like get my adrenaline down to be able to keep watching, you know, because it it's so effective.

59:04

And and you are aware of your aloneness.

59:07

You are aware that you're now a very frightened person who's isolated and alone, you know?

59:15

As you write Fargo, you write Alien, these sort of shows with different voices, and then you work with a team, you're leading a team, then you have the DP, you have the director, like, all these different people, uh the writers.

59:28

How explicit are you about the voice?

59:28

Is that something that develops over time where you're like, "Hey, here's a style guide and a sheet of how we do things."

59:36

or is it just like you say to your team, "It's very important that you understand what the voice is. There's a feeling.

59:40

It's hard to explain, but I will know it when I see it."

59:42

It's both just to some degree.

59:44

You You know, there's a voyage of discovery and and you know, in order to both build the team that I'm going to work with when I'm directing, that we're all making the same thing.

59:57

I I have to be able to explain what I'm doing to them.

1:00:00

Certainly with Film to Entertainment, I'm always just trying to create a feeling in the audience, right?

1:00:06

And and I don't necessarily know how to do it, but I but I'm willing to have bad ideas and play around with it and and and when I go to adapt Alien, for example, I don't rewatch Alien.

1:00:18

I I I think about, "Well, what what feelings did that movie produce in me?"

1:00:25

And and what really stuck and and then how do I produce those same feelings in in the audience by telling them a different story, right?

1:00:31

I'm not thinking about the intellect of it.

1:00:32

I'm not thinking about the plot of it.

1:00:35

I'm just thinking about the sort of like paint swatch of emotions, right?

1:00:38

Where you're like, "Oh, it's bone white and it's it's eggshell and it's you know, and if if you look think emotionally about a movie, you're like, "Oh, I was feeling blue and then I was red and then I was Yeah.

1:00:50

And so how do I create those feelings in in the audience in a way that that you know, it I mean, the most obvious way you're like, "Oh, it's a sad moment and here's sad music."

1:00:59

That's a one way to create a feeling, but it's pretty obvious.

1:01:01

But I like the color wheel analogy because there's complementary feelings, probably like there's complementary colors, right?

1:01:09

Like I think grief and humor they're kind of opposite.

1:01:12

They're They're like blue and orange, kind of opposite sides of the color wheel, but one can then enable the other.

1:01:18

Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite things to try to create in an audience is a feeling of catharsis, right?

1:01:22

Which is sort of literally means from sadness comes happiness, right?

1:01:26

That there's that there's a there's a there's a level of there's a complexity of emotions that needs to be released that build that builds up and and you know, and and can give you a transcendent feeling at the end.

1:01:39

transcendent feeling at the end. You know, I tried with this last season of Fargo where Sam Spruell's character, you know, he broke in and tried to kidnap Juno Temple at a certain point and and you know, she she she took half his ear off and and

1:01:57

escaped and then he ran into her one other time and and she thinks that that they're square but he shows up at her house when she thinks everything's all over and he's sitting there waiting for her with her family and you know, when I sat down to write that scene, I didn't necessarily have a plan for it. I knew that he showed up

1:02:14

I knew that he showed up and I thought, "Oh, well, so it'll be one more set piece where she has to defeat him or escape from him."

1:02:20

And then I I started writing the scene and and it didn't want to be that.

1:02:24

And I thought, "Well, that's his scene, right?

1:02:26

His scene is I'm going to show up and it's going to be violent and action."

1:02:32

What if she doesn't play his scene?

1:02:32

What if she refuses to play his scene?

1:02:37

And so she basically says, "Look, it's a school night and we're halfway to supper.

1:02:41

So, we're either going to have to reschedule this or you need to wash your hands and help." Right?

1:02:46

And so then he's in the kitchen like helping her make the biscuits.

1:02:48

And I was like, "Well, this is going to a really interesting place for me.

1:02:52

I love that she just refused to be in his scene." Yeah.

1:02:57

>> And she's kind of trying to force him into her scene.

1:02:59

And then it builds, there's tension to it, right?

1:03:01

there's tension to it, right? Because he's a hair away from from going back to his scene and she keeps working him and working him and then they're sitting together and they're literally breaking bread and and you know, and she raises

1:03:16

the idea of of forgiveness, you know, like at a certain point you just have to forgive and and move on and and you know, when he takes a bite of this roll and his eyes tear up and you know, it's this idea of forgiveness that is so profound in in our human culture, right? And um

1:03:35

And um it's you know, I felt like that that complexity of emotion that went into it builds that moment and and now that moment is really heightened. Yeah.

1:03:45

Right, you know, and and so but that those things can make when you're when you're making stuff for networks and studios and the like, they get nervous when when the emotions get really complicated.

1:03:58

I remember when I worked at ABC, they had this word they would use, emotionality.

1:04:06

They would talk about the emotionality of something.

1:04:07

I was like, well, that's not a thing, you realize like it's emotional.

1:04:10

Right, or it's not, but emotionality, then I realized it's oh, it's it's actually the simulation of emotion.

1:04:18

It's like the sad music starts before the sad moment to tell you that the sad thing's coming up.

1:04:25

>> You're supposed to feel sad.

1:04:27

>> Yeah, and and it's and it's a clarity where it's like you only feel sad when you're sad.

1:04:31

You only feel happy when you're happy.

1:04:33

They don't like it when it gets too complicated where some people might feel one thing and other people might feel something else. Huh. But I like that.

1:04:43

You keep uh you use the word playful as you talk about writing.

1:04:48

Why is playfulness so important?

1:04:48

Why is that the word that you keep coming back to?

1:04:52

Because it's an act of imagination, right?

1:04:54

And and you think about you know, kids down on the floor with pretend play, you know, one moment it's a spaceship, the next moment they're cowboys.

1:05:02

It's like >> [laughter] >> you know, they have access to a level of imagination through play.

1:05:08

>> have seen the forts that we used to build with couch pillows growing up.

1:05:11

>> Yeah, and and so you know, that act of play means that you are open to all possibility, right?

1:05:21

And and you know, I mean, I'll I'll write the script and I'll get on set with the actors and then we'll we'll play with the material.

1:05:30

And it doesn't mean that anything different is going to happen necessarily, but it means you need to be open to the to to whatever comes, you know?

1:05:39

And And I think that that playfulness um both on the page and you know, on the screen, but also in how you approach the business of writing, you know, with with how you it's all an opportunity for creative problem-solving, right?

1:05:55

When the when the network or the studio gives you a note and you think, "Oh, that's what they think it should do.

1:06:02

That That's completely wrong."

1:06:02

But you can't say that's completely wrong, right? So you go, "Oh, okay.

1:06:06

Well, how do I get what I want while making them think that I'm giving them what they want, right?"

1:06:14

And And that's it's it's a creative approach to problem-solving and a playful approach, cuz rarely is the answer to yell, you know?

1:06:23

I think a lot of artists have this instinct that they have to be junkyard dogs and protect their work at all costs, but that's a recipe for disaster.

1:06:32

It's like you know, you hear these stories someone got their first show and they just went to war with the network about it so that they could make the show that they had in their mind and then and then they never made anything else again because networks like, "Life's too short to work with those people."

1:06:47

So you're actually failing if you if you do that.

1:06:52

You have to find a way to to seem easy to work with to seem to be easy to work with, but also, "Oh, but he got what he wanted on the screen, you know?

1:07:02

She got she told the story that she wanted to tell and I feel good about it, right? Right.

1:07:09

So Well, I think that we have the idea in our head of the crazy, wacky, wild creative and you know, really struck me.

1:07:16

I was reading about Christopher Nolan and his consistent ability to just deliver on time and under budget. >> Yeah.

1:07:21

And that's something that really stands out with you is I think where you're at, you're able to speak to the creatives and you're able to kind of speak their language but then also be the business guy. Yeah.

1:07:33

>> And also to speak to the business people and be the creative now and speak the language of business but also be the creative person and being able to almost be multilingual seems really important.

1:07:45

Well, I want to do this for a living, you know what I mean?

1:07:46

And and I I've had these conversations with you know, with authors who are like, "Do I have to go out and promote my book?"

1:07:53

And I was like, "Only if you want to write another one." You know what I mean?

1:07:56

It's like you know, "Do I have to take their notes?

1:07:59

So, I got a pilot going and they want me to change the story and do I have to take their notes?"

1:08:02

And it's like, "Well, if all you want to do is write an outline, then use you hold firm, right?

1:08:07

But if you want a a script out of that outline, then yeah, you got to work with them.

1:08:13

And then if you want that pilot picked up, you know, again, there's a lot of give and take that you have to do.

1:08:18

But but the skill comes in at but I never compromise on anything that was too meaningful, right? Right?

1:08:27

>> There are deal breakers.

1:08:28

>> Yeah, and look, I mean a note is, "That's confusing." That's a good note.

1:08:33

I want to know something's confusing or "I see what you're going for.

1:08:38

I just don't think you got there."

1:08:40

That's really helpful to me, right?

1:08:40

A note is not, "I would do it differently." >> Right.

1:08:45

And I have those moments where I say to them "Well, that's just a different story." Right?

1:08:49

That's not the story I told.

1:08:50

So, it's not really helpful to suggest that something else happens.

1:08:55

That's just not the story that I'm telling.

1:08:57

Maybe that's a good story.

1:08:58

Maybe that's a better story. I don't know.

1:09:00

It's just not >> into a candy store and "Hey, there's not enough vegetables here." Right.

1:09:04

I'm not trying to sell you spinach.

1:09:04

And and you know, it's sort of the worst situation you can find yourself in is when you realize, "Oh, I'm making a different movie than they want." Yeah, you know.

1:09:16

Cuz there's sort of nothing you can do about it and and you know, you find yourself in that situation from time to time.

1:09:24

You know, and there's sort of no way to resolve it because you know, if they fundamentally feel like, "Oh, well, we wish this had gone a different way."

1:09:33

Story-wise, you're like, "Well, I can't fix that."

1:09:34

Unless you want to rewrite and reshoot half the thing, which they do sometimes, you know, but but um you know, you So it's So that's the other reason that communication is so important to make sure this is the movie I'm making.

1:09:48

This is what you're what you want, right?

1:09:49

And not to cat- cater to them, but so that you can avoid that 11th hour editing room, "Oh, [ __ ] You know."

1:10:00

I'll We're never This is never going to resolve itself.

1:10:03

So, I just made a short film and the thing that surprised me the most is just all the subtleties of sound, the way that you would put sound in in post, the way that you could play with echo and reverb, whatever to make a space feel big or small, how long a song should be to basically create suspense, say, "Oh, now we're ending this little segment here."

1:10:26

And you started off kind of wanted to be a songwriter, kind of wanted to be a rock star, whatever it was.

1:10:32

So now, from that experience, how do you think about music like in the scriptwriting process and then how you go from that to then putting it on screen?

1:10:41

You know, I start I I've used the same composer on on everything I've done, Jeff Jeff Russo.

1:10:45

And and so he and I start talking very early um in the process.

1:10:51

I mean, before I had a Fargo script, I had talked to him about what I felt like, you know, that shows should sound like and and so, you know, I did my first location scout up in in Calgary and I had 10 pieces of music that he'd written that I could listen to while I rolling through that landscape and and you know, you really feel what the the tone of voice is of it, right?

1:11:17

And and so you know, with Legion we sat down and I was like I feel like it should sound like Dark Side of the Moon, which is the most the closest you would come to the sort of auditory experience of mental illness you know, in musical and soundscape form, right?

1:11:37

And and so you know, he goes out and he tracks down that brand of 1979 patch cord synthesizer and he buys one and you know, and we start dialing in what the sound of of the show should be.

1:11:49

So, it starts with that of like what does it even want to sound like, you know, you think about you know, you think about the a movie like All Quiet on the Western Front that that Ed Berger did and when that score comes in it's this electronic ominous electronic score, nothing period about it, right?

1:12:12

Like and it's really the the the tension between the period piece and the modern music elevates it it creates a modernity to this project >> Right.

1:12:24

>> with that that that elevates it beyond just oh, it's a World War I movie, right?

1:12:28

movie, right? And and um you know, so so so that soundscape and and then, you know, on Legion I I decided that I wanted the the needle drops, the songs that we used to sound like score so that you never really broke out of the the musical concept of of the score and so you know, because I was a musician and and and a singer, the easiest way to get what I heard

1:12:57

done was just we just did it ourselves, you know, I would choose the songs and he would you know, he would compose the music and then I would go in, you know, it's a great thing at the end of the day and go go in and record some music and and you know, and then and then it creates this this sort of almost hypnotic feeling like you never break out of the the tonality of the of the piece. So, as I said, trying

1:13:21

So, as I said, trying to figure out how to create a feeling in the in the audience and and music is is one of the ways to do it.

1:13:31

But it's also the lack of music and if you and if you're if you're mixing tone, right?

1:13:35

If you've got drama and comedy and violence and whatever, what do you score?

1:13:39

You score the comedy, you kill the drama.

1:13:41

If you score the drama, you kill the comedy, right?

1:13:42

So, so a lot of the times it's where music doesn't go.

1:13:48

You know, there's there's an example I use in season 3 of Fargo, Carrie [ __ ] is this cop who's you know, she's at her lowest point and we had this running gag for her where everywhere she goes, the electronic sensors don't recognize her.

1:14:04

The automatic doors never open, the the soap in the sink never works for her and she begins to think that she's not real like you know, and so she's having this conversation with this other cop who she's met in this investigation and she's admitting for the first time that she doesn't know that she's real or not and then she and then the woman gives her a hug, right?

1:14:26

And like you you are real and then she goes to the bathroom and the soap works and the water works and and and so when I was looking at that sequence and thinking okay, well, I could score the emotion of of her confession and that would be totally legitimate, right?

1:14:43

And it would it would heighten it and, you know, um but what I'd rather do is leave that dry and then score the triumph of the sync, you know, the the the being real. >> And emphasize that.

1:15:00

>> And and because there was no music until that point, the the impact of that was so high. >> Right. Right.

1:15:05

And what you find mostly is that people just use too much music. Right?

1:15:11

You watch a lot of things where it's a 42-minute show with 38 minutes of music cuz they don't trust you to to just have your own emotional journey with the story. >> Right.

1:15:21

And then the music becomes meaningless.

1:15:24

I heard this story about Scorsese he used to watch a movie every single night. >> Right.

1:15:28

And have you done anything in terms of how you think about consumption?

1:15:33

Like, I don't know, you've probably referenced 20 movies >> Yeah, already in our conversation.

1:15:38

And is that something that you've done intentionally or is it just like I just love movies.

1:15:44

I love this this this medium and so I'm constantly consuming and then I make things.

1:15:52

Yeah, I am you know, when you have a lot of output you need to have a lot of input, right?

1:15:55

So, whether that's reading, you know, books, articles, essays, whatever it is or watching things, it's I'm I'm always looking for something that makes me go, "Oh, that's interesting."

1:16:06

You know, or or you know, it's like when I discovered Paolo Sorrentino and The Great Beauty, which is a great Italian.

1:16:13

He's a contemporary Italian filmmaker who has a Fellini-esque quality to him and you know, it just part of your brain opens up that wasn't open before.

1:16:27

>> That's like getting a new >> You know, and then it's like with white noise and once it's open, it stays open, right?

1:16:32

And and so I'm always looking for those moments and and you know, so so you know, one of my favorite routines that I I don't get to do all the time is you know, you drop the kids at school and then you go to some restaurant or cafe for a second breakfast at that point.

1:16:50

And you know, and I've got something in my back pocket whether it's a you know, a a you know, a little book of ideas or a magazine articles or whatever and then the moment that I go, "Oh, that's interesting." Now my mind is engaged. >> Right.

1:17:06

And now that's making me think and once I'm thinking now I'm now I can think about my stories.

1:17:13

You know, the the hardest part is when you go in and you're like, "I got nothing." Right?

1:17:17

Because you know, I left it all on the page yesterday.

1:17:22

Nothing went in in the last 12 hours and so where am I going to go with this?

1:17:25

And sometimes the the answer is, "Well, you're just not going to write today."

1:17:31

You know, you got to be okay with that also.

1:17:32

Um but if you can trigger a thought now you're up off and running.

1:17:40

I want to get into hiring as we begin to close here.

1:17:42

As you think about bringing people on, you've talked about this kind of person who just works too hard. >> Mhm.

1:17:48

And intuitively you'd be like, "How could that exist?"

1:17:52

So talk to me about that.

1:17:55

Well, I have a line which is like, "Don't climb four flights of stairs to get to the second floor."

1:17:58

You know, there's people who you're like, "You're working way too hard just to go up one flight of stairs."

1:18:03

You know, and and you know, some of it is is you know, when you when you get up every morning and you got to go in and shoot eight pages of a script and you've got an action scene and you've got this important dialogue scene and you're like, "How am I going to fit it all in today?"

1:18:24

Every morning we know that what we have to do today is impossible, right?

1:18:25

But we're going to do it anyway, you know.

1:18:30

I remember talking to Jason Schwartzman who was really nervous about a scene and I said, "Well, just picture your favorite scene in your favorite movie, right?

1:18:39

I could have been a contender." Right?

1:18:41

They shot that on a Tuesday between 4:00 and 8:00 p. m. , right?

1:18:43

And, you know, they didn't go, "Oh, this is the I could have been a contender scene."

1:18:50

Or maybe they did, but at at a certain point, it's just you just got to get in there and and do the work, right?

1:18:56

And and I guarantee you if you know, if we don't like what we did, I'll find a way to take another shot at it, right?

1:19:03

So, you got to lower the stakes on some level even as you're trying to It's the playfulness, right?

1:19:10

Let's close talking about movies, books, and TV.

1:19:13

I just want to go through each of them and I want just want to get your quick take on writing for that medium.

1:19:19

So, let's start with movies.

1:19:19

Well, movies, like I said, you you know, you you start out with all the time in the world and you end up with no time at all.

1:19:25

And and so and so, you know, you kind of have to structure it in in a way that that And this is true of books, also.

1:19:32

You know, where where the plot doesn't hijack the story from you.

1:19:37

In other words, if you reach a point in in the movie in which you you're just paying off what you set up, then you've kind of lost control of the story in a way.

1:19:50

You know, I started writing with the with on the book front with The Good Father and then Before the Fall and then Anthem, what what I called emotional thrillers, right?

1:19:58

And and I did it because my the first novel, A Conspiracy of Tall Men, which was about professor of conspiracy theories whose wife was killed in a plane crash and he's he finally has the conspiracy he's been looking for, but he's lost his wife and and so it's no trade-off.

1:20:13

But, there was a moment in that book, the last sort of few chapters, where I'd set this conspiracy into motion and I had to pay it off and I felt like, "Oh, well, now I'm just writing what happens next."

1:20:27

You know, in a way where it's not as interesting to me.

1:20:30

But, if I can build it as an emotional thriller in that what you really want to know is is the character going to be okay?

1:20:38

Is the hero going to How are they going to navigate the emotional crisis they're going through?

1:20:46

That's what you really care about.

1:20:46

And yeah, you want to know what the solution to the mystery is, and you want to see everybody end up safely, but but you still have room to tell the the interesting parts of the story and and not become a sort of hostage to the work you did earlier in the book or the film that now has to pay off, you know?

1:21:03

It's a you know, it's on some level it's a subtle thing for a reader, but for the writer, you know, it's it's a huge thing cuz the moment you're like, "Ah, now I got to type you know, this is the car is chasing him."

1:21:17

And, you know, I've already lost interest on some level, right?

1:21:21

So, you know, you I think you want it It's got to be a character piece the whole way through, and and the stakes have to be character stakes.

1:21:27

They can't be like, you know, plot stakes in my mind. Tell me about TV.

1:21:34

A television series has a beginning, middle, and an end.

1:21:36

And a television season has a beginning, middle, and an end.

1:21:40

And a television episode has a beginning, middle, and >> Russian babushka doll.

1:21:44

>> Yeah, and so and so you have to sort of be able to to think about it in that way that like, you know, this this hour that we're going to watch together now, right, is going to give you a feeling at the end of it like you've watched a complete story.

1:21:59

You know, there's this problem you you can run into in a season of television, which is which is the late middle problem, right?

1:22:08

You start big, you put everybody in motion, you know somewhere around the mid-season there's going to be a big thing that happens, and then you know the end of the season there's going to be a big thing that happens, and there's a lull in between, right?

1:22:19

And and part of how I solved for it um in Fargo was you know, in episode eight of the first season, the show jumped ahead a year, right?

1:22:31

Um and you know, in season two, in episode seven, Ed and Peggy went on the run.

1:22:37

The show changed locations. It it it moved.

1:22:39

We weren't stuck, you know, I'm not writing to standing sets.

1:22:45

We're not trapped in the story where you know, I only have enough money to have a an episode five set piece and an episode 10 set piece and I don't you know, I got to Now, it's just got to be people talking in a room.

1:22:56

That that makes me a little a little crazy when you feel like the show they don't want to spend money, but but they're not using the constraints to be innovate as storytellers.

1:23:07

They're they're they're just sort of accepting they're taking it for granted.

1:23:13

They're like, okay, well, I guess we just got to have to have a an episode where everyone's just talking the whole time.

1:23:18

You're like, well, yeah, but or you could make the talking more interesting or you can create an urgency in the one location or whatever it is.

1:23:25

So, you know, it's it's it's it's being able to look at your your season, your episodes and pace out your story.

1:23:37

Let's end with the core lesson of writing novels.

1:23:41

Uh well, you know, patience.

1:23:41

And you know, uh someone once told me when you know, when you work in Hollywood, the phone rings every day and someone says they love you.

1:23:49

And when you write novels, you just sit in that room and the phone doesn't ring.

1:23:52

And you know, you got to be okay with that, right?

1:23:54

You got to be okay with this is a long journey that that I'm going to take.

1:24:00

going to take. I'm going to live with this thing for two or three or five years and and um and it's going to have its ups and downs and and you know, the the the it's not an instant return, you know, in the way that you know, you you can write a season of television in

1:24:20

in a few months and shoot it in a few months and have it on the air within 18 months of the start and it feels like you're working in real time and you know, a book is I don't know you're going to you're going to you're going to sit in that office for a very long time before anybody sees anything. Yeah. Yeah.

1:24:36

No Holly, thank you very much. >> Thanks.