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To be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like onset.
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And in my trailer, when I'm alone, wanting to tear my skin off.
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So, the future, I think I couldn't see it cuz I didn't know how much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day-to-day life.
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The best-selling author and host The number one health and wellness podcast with Jay Shetty.
0:59
Elliot, welcome to On Purpose. Thank you so much.
1:02
Thank you so much for making the time, for for being here.
1:04
I know you're in LA only for a few days, and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of that time.
1:11
Thank you for having me here.
1:11
Uh Well, today we're talking about your incredible new memoir.
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For anyone who hasn't already read this book, I highly recommend that you go and grab it.
1:18
We're going to put the link in the caption so that you can order it right now, Pageboy.
1:24
Uh please make sure that you go and grab a copy if you're enjoying this conversation.
1:27
Elliot, when I you know, was reading through the book, I was truly just first of all, I just felt very um grateful that someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of their life, and doing it in such a graceful and thoughtful way.
1:50
And even the structure of the book, too.
1:52
I was just like, "Oh, this is like easing me in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from a memoir usually.
1:58
And you chose this non-linear approach consciously and intentionally.
2:01
Could you explain why you felt that that was the right way to share your story?
2:08
Yeah, I mean, for me the non-linearity of it is a reflection on some level of speaking for myself trans and queer experience and how that journey weaves, how we get close to our truth, potentially pull back, maybe know ourselves very, very deeply before we've been inundated with, you know, uh society and its expectations that are often toxic and and limiting.
2:40
And you know, so for me in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments of my life where I I did feel close and then would pull back potentially because I was frightened, overwhelmed, or what have you.
2:57
So, um I guess also personally I enjoy when books are non-linear, you know, where in different themes and topics and history and emotion and what have you can all sort of collide.
3:17
So, that's just inherently, I guess, exciting to me and also, yeah, I think it reflects the sort of queer trans journey on some level.
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I love the phrase you just used there, exploration of memory.
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I don't know, my mind just latched onto it and I thought, "Wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it."
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I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing, it so often fails us, it's so often skewed.
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What was it like for you going down memory lane?
3:48
And when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover or explore about memory when you're putting together a memoir?
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I feel like I feel like there must be something in there.
3:58
For me, so many of um you know, the stories or the moments that I chose are ones that have just always been vibrating under the right under the surface.
4:12
And found the act of writing it in in many ways was quite organic.
4:19
It was sort of I'd sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship that could potentially sort of speak to many things during that time, or a friendship, or an incident, or what have you, and then sort of mold around that.
4:33
And for me, so much of what came up was the stuff that was kind of always running around uh my brain.
4:42
So, some of my earliest memories when I was, you know, in preschool to obviously then all over the place throughout.
4:50
So, I think a lot of the the instances and feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible.
4:59
For me, the experience was I don't know if this comes from like acting or having so much of my life being uh a part of telling stories where it was as if I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment, and it was as if I was just describing this movie I was watching or something.
5:19
Do you find uh I'm always fascinated by this, especially with people who are in filmmaking.
5:22
Do you find that when you're looking at a memory, you're seeing yourself move, or are you kind of the person doing the moving? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.
5:34
I think I think probably both, a a combination of of the two. Yeah.
5:40
Probably also a a a conscious removal on some level to be able to, you know, give it texture and and and and description that Yeah.
5:50
hopefully will, you know, pull the reader into it. Absolutely.
5:54
I always find that all my memories, which it took me a long time to realize this, all my memories that are based on pictures are ones where I'm seeing myself as opposed to memories that I actually have from my mind, if that Yeah. if that makes sense.
6:09
Like whenever I see a picture of me and my family, then I'm like, oh, actually I don't have a memory of that.
6:13
I just have a picture that sparked something.
6:15
For you, was there a memory that was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, oh, I didn't I forgot that that happened or I maybe didn't pay enough attention to that when it happened.
6:25
Was there anything that came up that way or was it more just things that were already there?
6:29
I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emerged out of nowhere that was a was a surprise.
6:35
But I think on some level and this made, you know, the experience of writing it, of course, intense in moments, but ultimately really healing and cathartic.
6:48
I think there was a lot of memories that I had just so swept under the rug. Mhm.
6:54
Where you become so conditioned to let certain things go, certain behavior coming at you go, that even sitting here right now, I can kind of feel it in my body to register how much certain things really did affect me and and my life and my physical well-being and my emotional well-being and what have you.
7:12
So, it was almost more like there was like a therapeutic element to it on some level, but sitting with the reality of some things that I think was actually really important. Yeah.
7:24
Well, thank you for doing it here and and here in both places because I I I can only imagine how much courage it takes to do that.
7:30
So, so thank you for even experiencing it even now.
7:33
As you were saying, you can feel it in your body and I can see that.
7:35
It's I can I can only imagine how much courage that takes.
7:38
So, thank you thank you for going there for us.
7:40
How does it feel to finally be living the way you've always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've always perceived yourself?
7:50
It's like getting to feel a way that I never thought was possible. Mhm.
7:58
Like when I would just think about my future and how I was going to feel and I had a very difficult time seeing it.
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Even this morning I saw a friend and I don't see him as much cuz he lives here and he's just like this like lightness in you.
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He's just like, "Oh my gosh, it's such an amazing thing to see."
8:19
And this is someone who's been in my life since I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at the age of about 20, like consistently is when we first met initially.
8:29
So it's uh yeah, it's getting to exist in a way that I never thought possible.
8:34
It doesn't mean I'm not human who doesn't have difficult days or or you know, sparks of anxiety naturally.
8:41
Um but it's um a complete game changer.
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Just getting to feel being able to do this.
8:47
This would have been a one impossible before. Impossible.
8:52
I could have never simply the action of sitting down for the length that it takes to have space in my mind freed from everything else that was occupying it.
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To feel the sort of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired. Mhm.
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And waking up and being able to actually sit down with myself and and do something like this. Mhm. Um impossible before. Impossible.
9:27
What would your thoughts about the future have been then that you think made it feel so impossible?
9:33
As you said, you used to think about the future and it could never have felt as good as it does today despite there being natural human challenges obviously.
9:40
But yeah, what would what would that picture of the future would have been?
9:46
I think the way I the way to explain it is almost like it's almost as if your day is I I just do feel like for very significant periods of my life I struggled to function on a pretty basic level.
10:04
You know, it was hard for me to just literally sit down.
10:08
It was hard for me to be productive.
10:11
It was hard for me to be you know, present at all.
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And so the future, I think I couldn't see it cuz I didn't know how much longer I'd last feeling that way in my day-to-day life.
10:24
How does it feel now reconnecting with acting being who you've always been and perceiving being perceived in that way?
10:31
Like what is what is acting like now?
10:32
Has your relationship with acting changed? Is it better?
10:35
Is it more So much better. Yeah. Yeah.
10:38
I mean I mean literally everything in my life is better now because of how I get to feel and feeling embodied and present and you know, all these things really for the first time.
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Cuz this is the other thing I have people say to me or I'd say to myself like like you're an actor.
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Just put on the clothes, flip the switch, play the game, you know, whatever.
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But uh I wasn't starting from this foundational place of myself.
11:08
And as much as acting is about inhabiting uh you know, another personality or you know, whatever manifestations of of a character what have you, it you're always bringing yourself to a role, right?
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Like you're it's so much about connecting to a character, to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma, to whatever, to the joy, to what have you.
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And developing your connection with that and then molding something on that.
11:38
So, uh I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable and I feel like I see that in work.
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Like uh inability to sort of mhm I almost think of the word loose.
11:53
Like And now there's like this like looseness.
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There's this ability to just like exist every day on set, be in my body, and that's the starting point.
12:02
I'm not having to like fight through something to get to the starting point. Mhm.
12:08
You know, whereas I know people approach the work differently, but to me it's about being as present and open as absolutely possible with all the you know, information you've gathered about how you want to, you know, play this role or uh uh approach it.
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So, it's allowing for that and it's feeling like how acting felt in the moments when I was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat I could almost handle. Mhm.
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You know, I could handle the you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me the the presence of it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.
12:46
Yeah, it's it's hard to even though some things in art and then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two.
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Like it's it's hard to just say, "Oh, well, that's an art.
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You turn it on like and off like a switch and then then there's your life."
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And I think we all know that regardless of our disposition or setup, it they the two intertwine anyway. Absolutely.
13:06
and so what parts of the art do you feel have drastically improved for you now?
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Like that you just feel more connected to or as you said, I love the words open and present to.
13:18
I mean, to be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like on set Mhm.
13:23
and in my trailer when I'm alone and wanting to tear my skin off.
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I don't know, whatever the sort of physical ways that I would feel, and like I can remember I'd call my, you know, manager on films and just be like, I'm I'm not okay.
13:37
Like I can't And not necessarily having the words, or having them, but not not being able to fully follow through with the thought, I guess.
13:49
So, so much of it is actually is like to be honest, if someone had told me, "Oh, you can't come out as trans and you'll never work as an actor again."
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I would have been like, "Cool. Like, all right.
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I'd way rather live my life and be myself, and engage with the world as myself, and feel embodied, and not feel like I don't know how to get through the day." Yeah. Not interested.
14:12
So, for me, I'm mostly like, "Okay, cool."
14:16
that the, you know, if I keep if I do get cast, um the fallout does seem to be this very positive aspect of of feeling so much more grounded and present that I think I will it's going to make performances better. Yeah.
14:34
And if it doesn't, I doesn't I don't really care. Yeah.
14:39
That's not what life's about for me. Yeah.
14:42
I've I've been in movies that have done well, and movies that have not done well, and you're still where you are and living your life. And uh like I'm good. Yeah. I love that.
14:52
I mean, that that is I loved you said that's what life's about, and and I think it's so true.
14:58
Like, for all of us in our own ways wanting to feel that we can truly be who we are, and and be seen for who we are, and be accepted for who we are is kind of what all of us on our journey are are pursuing and seeking.
15:13
And when you say And and it sounds like to me, and as I'm trying to deeply understand this as well, it's like when you say I In the book, you talk about how you like I knew when I was 4 years old.
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And it's like that knowingness and then you use the language of like, you know, tearing off your own skin.
15:28
Like that idea to me feels like when there's such a strong knowingness inside.
15:34
Knowing is different to feeling.
15:37
And and it sounds like when I was reading I was like there was just knowingness.
15:39
And and I was intrigued just to is that the right language? Do you agree with that?
15:44
And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling?
15:48
Because I think knowing is so much more of this like visceral deep grounded rooting feeling.
15:56
Yeah, I mean I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated to a degree and and and connect.
16:01
I mean I think at those which are some of my earliest memories like these moments that were just always like right under the surface.
16:11
Um with so much of how I felt uh at that age.
16:15
And who I knew myself to be and how perplexed I was at how the world was seeing me.
16:23
And then and when I was about 10 sort of like kind of like pushing my mother to the degree that I was like really actually getting to present how I wanted and like remembering just how good that felt and the solidness and this this way I could I could could exist in the world without the similar feelings that I had as a full-blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off that I was feeling at really young ages and not obviously having the words for.
16:56
But in some ways you're like, no wait, I did have the words for them.
16:59
I was going this is who I am and want to be and these are the things that I want to wear and how I want to look and present and you had people going, you know, no, I'm sorry, you know.
17:13
So in some ways you're like, wait, no, I did have the words.
17:15
And also I guess I did to a degree in my 20s and the same thing.
17:19
People were going, "No, you can't do that.
17:21
You have to do this if you want a future in this industry, for example, or you have to be closeted or what have you."
17:28
So, I think for me the knowing the knowing and the feeling relate.
17:33
The the knowing and feeling good about the knowing is is when you feel euphoria.
17:40
Is when you feel that sense of connection, when that's incongruence with uh what you've been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting treated versus who you know you are.
17:50
You know, then when that's heightened and like you're losing the sense of the knowing, that's when all these awful feelings come up and the manifestation and the consequences that are self-harm, obviously mental health struggles and what have you.
18:07
Feelings of hopelessness.
18:10
So, I suppose they entwine in that way. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah.
18:17
I'm curious as to friends that you've had in the community who may have been more limited by those statements or that pushback or that judgment.
18:31
How have you been able to talk to others in the community?
18:32
What have those conversations look like when they're at their healthiest and at their best? Mhm.
18:39
Gosh, well, I'd say those conversations are uh you know, crucial, right?
18:43
I'd say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even here and able to exist.
18:55
And a lot of those conversations and it goes both ways in the conversations is someone speaking to something that might be a a thought or a feeling that you thought you were alone with because we obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation.
19:14
And when you are able to connect with someone that's having these similar experiences that have made you feel very alone, that have filled you with shame potentially or put you into a a sense of hiding, is the Not that you want anyone else to be suffering by any means, but when you're able to speak to someone else who's also Mhm.
19:41
maybe had the similar feelings when they were poor, who's uh who maybe had similar manifestations of uh of their pain, I suppose. You feel less alone.
19:58
You are then in a position where, you know, I can offer support and support's been offered to me from so many trans people that I'm close to.
20:09
And people I've never met, whose books I've read, who's, you know, who've deeply inspired me. So. Yeah. Yeah.
20:15
Were there any particular books or people that you didn't know that you came across that you think you'd recommend to people to connect with that you felt were powerful for you while you were obviously now that your book's going to play the same role for so many others?
20:27
Gosh, I mean, so many and then yeah, some people I know, some I don't.
20:32
And also a couple books I've read recently, actually.
20:34
Travis Alabanza's book that came out in the UK.
20:38
It comes out here, I think, next month called None of the Above is just astounding.
20:44
I don't know if you're familiar with them. I'm not. No, no, I'm not. Yeah. Brilliant.
20:49
Um also a British uh called um Trans A Trans Man Walks into a Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas. Really um stunning book.
20:58
Anyway, I just sort of like just read those.
21:00
Oh, and I just read a collection of um I don't know if you're familiar with Lou Sullivan.
21:06
They've published like massive amount of his diaries, which I just read and that was actually quite an interesting read cuz at first you're reading someone's diary.
21:18
Like it is very I did this then I met this person and then you really get into the flow of it.
21:22
And it's very, you know, it's beautiful, it's emotional and intense.
21:26
And Janet Mock's books, which are stunning, those I read probably around the age of 30.
21:33
Thomas Page McBee's book Amateur and Man Alive. Um I'm blanking.
21:42
No, I mean you've given us a great list. That's it.
21:43
That's a phenomenal list to even to get even get started with and it's it's incredible to hear how much you know, I mean you were just reeling off of book names there, but it's like so much deep study of you know, did you ever keep a diary or during this time or journal or anything at all over your time or was this something that was all happening in your mind ultimately? Mine for the most part.
22:07
There were little I did go like hunting and for any kind of old writing from whatever age and I found some things as a teen, late teens and like little things from in my 20s and did kind of regret not writing more because a lot of those were really helpful.
22:28
Um and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back.
22:33
So no, not so much, but Yeah, but you'd recommend it as a as a practice.
22:38
meaning to do it and I'm not I don't know.
22:39
But maybe I like I wrote a book, book tour was a lot.
22:41
I'm like I'm just taking a moment and then I'll get back into the writing flow.
22:47
I think that's completely fair.
22:47
Books and book tours, it's almost like you finish writing a book and you think the job's done and then it's like just started and it's yeah, it's no, completely completely understand that.
22:58
You You were saying that, you know, and I I liked how you were thinking that through.
23:01
You were like I actually did have the right words at 4 and then at 10.
23:04
And I wonder how many young people are going to have the same conversation with their parents in the next few years and think, you know, we're going to have more parents hearing the words that you used to from from their children.
23:17
What do you think would be a healthy response from parents that you think would be helpful or that you would encourage so that they could be able to better stay connected to their children as they're going on their own journey.
23:31
I think you really need to just listen to your children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing, not shame them or embarrass them for what they're expressing.
23:46
And allow a child the the space to explore, you know.
23:49
I mean, even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself, the things I'd internalized.
23:56
And I remember this moment which people say things like, what do you say to young people who might be struggling or people are struggling is I went from oh, am I the oh, I don't know. Oh, to well, wait.
24:12
Why does this energy need to be this way?
24:15
Why can't I just be going, huh? Hmm. Yeah, maybe I am.
24:22
Maybe I'll go find someone and finally sit down and really commit to speaking about this and how I'm feeling and my relationship with my gender and my body cuz I'm not okay.
24:34
And why can't I put my shoulders back and speak to this and explore this?
24:39
And I think in so many ways, it's just about creating that space, that gentleness, and listening and educating yourself, you know.
24:45
There is a lack of information and there isn't a tremendous amount of lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our health care, particularly about health care for youth.
24:58
So, also try and educate yourself from actual sources from lived experience and and also care that's supported by every major medical institution in the United States.
25:09
Could you ex- and and if this is your field of knowledge, could you expand on some of those lies or some of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with health care?
25:20
Because I think that would be really useful if if you feel comfortable to, yeah.
25:23
I mean, I can what I can do my best, I guess, with yeah, but um I mean, the idea that children's bodies are being mutilated, flat-out lie, just literally not true.
25:37
Um the idea that uh puberty blockers are experimental, no, they've been used for decades um for children who have uh precocious puberty.
25:45
Um and this care is sort of framed as something that's like very easily accessible and immediate. Not the case at all.
25:54
Uh most trans people are having an incredibly difficult time accessing care.
26:01
It's not how it's being framed in terms of this um as if it's getting like pushed. It's like the opposite.
26:10
Um and this is like a very thorough patient process that deeply involves the parents, of course, and so much of the care for children or you know, young kids is just about supporting them, uh supporting a a social transition potentially, you know, name change, pronoun change, how they might want to dress, cut their hair, whatever, you know, very you know, basic aspects of, you know, how we exist in our lives.
26:44
And then, you know, the moment uh a child starts to show any sort of characteristic of of puberty, that's when the conversation weighed out conversation with all the information everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop and then, you know, if if that's the choice, or continue potentially to hormones.
27:04
And then when we're talking about any kind of, you know, surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age of typically 18, in some cases 16, but um so I guess that's like the bulk of what I see is this idea that children are getting like mutilated or brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it.
27:29
It's the opposite, actually, you know, trans and gender-nonconforming people are um bullied, deal with disproportionate violence, um so so much of that is just just literally not true. Right.
27:46
Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
27:48
thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I know it's it's useful because yeah, I think that the challenges with with all of this is like you said, there's so much information that it's hard for I think misinformation and information that it's hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively, and and
28:08
we hope that these conversations like this can lead to people doing their own research, finding the right sources so that they can actually be able to make sense of, you know, something that they may not understand as well, as opposed to having an assumption based on uh broad generalized Yeah. headlines or Or just hearing
28:23
headlines or Or just hearing people that have no I'm always like, oh, I didn't know you were a medical professional.
28:29
You're not talking about any other sort of medical care uh uh in this way when it's supported by every major medical institution in the United States. Yeah.
28:41
What do you think trans men can add to the conversation of masculinity or add to their thoughts and belief system on masculinity.
28:50
I'd love to hear your perspectives on that.
28:55
I think we can add something. I believe it, too.
28:57
And the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas Page McBee is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what it means to be a man, the man he wants to be, what have you. Beautiful book. I think you'd love it.
29:11
I mean, I've had a lived experience of being perceived as not a man, of course.
29:19
Um and also the sort of brief experience of like entering that space and like getting sort of treated in a different way where in many ways I feel so much for cis men being brought up and the limits put on them emotionally, encouraged to be, you know, not sensitive, that vulnerability is weakness on some level or what have you, just ingrained misogyny.
29:49
Obviously, we live in a very misogynistic society, queerphobic society, transphobic society, and having certain experiences I've had in my life with men, um has definitely highlighted certain things that I personally wouldn't want to be in.
30:08
I suppose trans men, trans masculine people can come to the table with uh with those experiences and um potentially offer something different or an insight that's different or I hope for cis men in so many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing emotion and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men and all these things that seem to to happen that are um toxic. Mhm.
30:47
Yeah, I think there's become such a pressure as well to just play the role of protector and provider and that stoic kind of cold demeanor around emotion or challenges or stress.
31:00
And that comes with its own form of limits to the human experience, to self-expression, to you know, I've I've always found personally because I was raised by my mom growing up and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her pain and her her challenge and just her resilience.
31:18
And then also with a younger sister, it was I found that very useful because I grew up in an environment that was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and and and expressing emotion.
31:35
And I often think about if I didn't have that experience, I don't know where else I would have got that from in my life.
31:42
And and that's interesting to think about like how I I could have grown up and never had that compass.
31:48
It would it would never even have come across me.
31:50
Where else would I have learned that?
31:51
I wouldn't have Definitely wouldn't have learned it at school.
31:53
Definitely wouldn't have learned it at college.
31:57
And then in the world of work, I definitely wouldn't have learned it either.
31:59
So, you could literally spend your whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced expressions which are so key.
32:10
Are there any specific interactions you've had or moments you've had where this kind of experience has been heightened or some of the things you mentioned that you felt like, "Oh, wow, this was this was really powerful for someone or something?"
32:21
I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations with cis men that I hadn't had before.
32:31
Like it created an an opening and to be quite frankly more empathy. Mhm.
32:36
Because I've had not great experiences with men and um it's easy to lose some of the empathy sometimes, you know?
32:46
I think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or have close relationships with other men or, you know, a sort of a certain age where emoting or self-expression in that way is is not seen as a positive.
33:08
And if anything, you know, aggression is more, you know, celebrated or or or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themselves and obviously the world.
33:19
In my life, I've noticed things that are just more, you know, subtle, but like men who used to I hadn't seen them for a while, we used to hug, and then now we're like there's no hug, and I'm just like, you know, these little things.
33:31
I'm like, "Wow, that's fascinating, you know?" Mhm.
33:35
You know, even myself at the very beginning, like going having these like really brief moments of like, "Oh, should I talk with my hands less? Like, what, Elliot?
33:43
Did that thought actually just enter your brain?
33:49
No, be exactly who you are."
33:49
But it highlighted something that even just in that tiny amount of time something in me was starting to judge myself about how I was going to be as the man that I am I'm going to grow up to be.
34:06
And it's you know, it's it's sort of embarrassing to to to admit, but feeling those those sort of, yeah, pressures or misguided um thoughts. Mhm.
34:22
But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite meaningful conversations with with male friends that um we hadn't really had before.
34:32
Yeah, and they probably haven't had before.
34:33
Yeah, and I think and then I will say one thing.
34:36
I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone and as someone who's literally jokes on me going through puberty again, I will say like I'm not more angry.
34:46
I'm the least angry I've ever been.
34:48
It doesn't like I think, you know, we're not taking into account the degree of socialization and and uh and like toxic limitations that encourage, you know, a lot of the behavior and issues we see with toxic masculinity. Mhm.
35:04
Another challenge that you've raised in the book, you said research has shown that transgender and gender non-conforming youth are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder.
35:13
That obviously creates its own complexity.
35:14
What what was the What does the research point to as the reason behind that and and how people can find support around that, especially with that complication?
35:23
Well, gosh, I mean, I'm not a obviously like a professional that could give you some exact what have you come across? That's a good question.
35:30
I mean, from my experience, it's, you know, a profound discomfort in the body of wanting to have a sense of control.
35:39
For me in some ways, I think too, being smaller allowed I looked more boyish when I was a, you know, so this sort of way of like literally controlling the body and also just the sort of you know, sort of psychically, mentally, so much of your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to think about other things, to contemplate other things. Mhm.
36:06
You talk about in the book about how like your thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time.
36:14
And I guess that now that you're able to not have to contemplate those same thoughts, almost like what we talked about at the beginning about the thoughts about the future and the thoughts about it being impossible, what now that you have that headspace back or hopefully more of it back, what would that now be?
36:30
What are you directing that towards or what opportunities that opening or where are you able to spend that thought power? Wrote a book.
36:41
I wrote a Yeah, I wrote a book.
36:41
I mean I make, you know, for fun like music with a friend.
36:47
It's actually hard to describe when it's literally now every aspect and every moment of my life, you know, like when people go, "Oh, what was your last incident of like gender euphoria?"
36:56
I'm like, "Oh, this morning when I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able to sit and have my coffee."
37:04
Doing things in the past that like I didn't enjoy but a part of me wasn't there.
37:10
So, it could just be going to meet some friends in in the park and I'm really able to just be in the park with them.
37:18
I'm not thinking about oh, well, are they going to did I eat well, you only ate this much time ago and oh oh god, I'm so uncomfortable and tucking down my shirt and looking and just kind of wanting to get out always.
37:30
Like always wanting to just the sense of always wanting to flee.
37:37
And now sometimes of course there's moments where I'm like, I really love to just be home reading a book right now.
37:44
I mean like I'm not like it's not like I'm like Johnny social all of a sudden.
37:48
But going from having like a very difficult time being social and feeling connected or now getting to feel like immersed in life versus struggling to know how to live it.
38:02
Wow, that I could that definitely registers.
38:03
Hearing that definitely hits.
38:06
Thank you for explaining that.
38:06
This when you went on the book tour and you obviously as you just said you wrote the book, what's been what have been the responses that have really warmed your heart or that have really connected to you in a way that are going to stay with you for a long long time either on tour or I'm sure you've had so many people write to you because of the book and write to your team and everyone else.
38:26
What are some of the What are some of those that you could tell us now, especially now that the book's been out for a while?
38:31
I'm guessing it's only getting more and more. Mhm.
38:33
Yeah, I think um the most moving uh and beautiful responses are people kind of expressing it all ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you know. No. Feel less alone.
38:57
Helped them talk to their parents in a new way.
39:00
Helped them feel carry less shame.
39:05
I had a letter from someone who was They might have They might have been, you know, 50 and they'd read the book and then like you know, finally had decided, "Yes, I'm going on testosterone."
39:18
and just saying like how much that decision had changed their life and I fully was like crying when I read this.
39:30
I was just so um well, thankful that they'd want to, you know, share that with me.
39:38
And also to know that anything you could have done or expressed would would help someone feel less alone cuz I know how alone you can feel.
39:47
I know how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self-hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body.
40:03
And what it means when you do get those moments of clarity and feel connection.
40:07
I've as I've said, I've had that with books I've read or, you know, friendships and and what community communities offered me.
40:15
So, those are beautiful moments and then even, you know, a friend of mine who's who's trans masc and they their mom read the book in like a couple days and they said, "I'm now having conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before."
40:27
It's like I mean, at the end of the day, like that's the point.
40:33
I mean, that's really the point.
40:37
It's like, why else am I like spilling my guts in this thing?
40:39
Like, sometimes I'll be like, leading up to it coming out, I'm like, "Oh my god, why'd you write about that?"
40:48
And then, when you have those moments that you know it could be helping someone, it's just like I mean, to me, that's the point. Yeah.
40:57
Did you encounter anyone that initially may have been, you know, in their own way initially critical or judgmental and then was able to kind of even just sit with you and hear from you or and and was able to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey.
41:17
Did Did Did you come across any of that or hear about any of those types of stories from anyone?
41:23
I mean, I suppose people I don't know if you know, the individual went on like some huge arc or change of thought, but that it enabled them to to think about and understand the experience a bit more.
41:36
And actually, in so many ways that I think so special is how much they also related to it despite having an very different experience, you know, not being trans and and they relate to it?
41:49
What was They related it being you know, cis and gay.
41:53
And so, obviously, there's going to be like overlap there, but had I maybe they did have their certain feelings about trans people or thoughts and the book really did help, you know, their mind change to a degree.
42:08
I'm so glad that I mean, there's so many books that you mentioned today that I want to read, and I know that you know, our community is hopefully going to read Pageboy as well after this, but it's fascinating to me just how how we all became trained in different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to experiences that you would hope we would have become more curious to learn about and more open to learn about.
42:32
And it's it's fascinating to me as a society how we've become more and more close-minded about so many issues as opposed to being broad-minded when it obviously makes sense to be open-minded about things, makes us a healthier, happier, more growth-focused human.
42:50
And for me, I've always talked about how I think the best thing that happened to me is I met people who are very different to society when I was young.
43:01
And when I say different, I mean for me it was um uh meeting spiritual monks.
43:04
Like that was my personal journey.
43:07
And so meeting a monk at 18 years old was so random to my life's journey that it was great because it presented a whole new way of thinking, an ideology that I would never have ever thought could even be possible, and it became such a big part of my life.
43:24
And I I just I'm I'm hoping that you know, stories like yours and stories like this will continue to help people open up their minds to recognize how much there is in common that we have and how much there is in common experience that we can learn from and be guided by even if it's not the same experience.
43:41
Would that Would that be an accurate mission statement to put a part of the mission statement? Absolutely. Ideally, yeah. Yeah.
43:50
And I mean I you know, like memoir in particular is I read a lot of and love, and so much of it are you know, stories that are very different than mine and and people with different experiences and identity and what have you that have deeply touched me and moved me and opened my mind and allowed me to grow and expand and we're all learning all the time, you know? Yeah.
44:18
it's beautiful to have the space where you know, to help create the space on any level that allows people to to grow and expand in that way. Yeah.
44:27
How's your perspective on love changed and that area of your life?
44:34
Definitely very different now than I was in before.
44:38
I was very much, which I think's maybe relatively evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogamist and just like really did find it so hard to exist and and and function that I I I do think like I needed someone.
44:53
Like I And the moment there was like attraction or a feeling, it's just sort of like, "Uh-huh, you know, like and like hold on tight, you know?"
45:03
And staying in situations that um I'm sure a lot of people, again, this is something that so many people would relate to in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably weren't great for either party involved and that came from really just not knowing how to exist by myself.
45:25
And the feeling of love, right?
45:27
Oof, that's like like we escape, it's pardon the pun, but transcendent, you know?
45:32
It's and that feeling would give me a spark of life.
45:38
It would give me a moment of I can breathe.
45:44
Ultimately, though, that's not the reason why I think we should be with someone.
45:48
And um it's tad selfish on my part.
45:48
And uh now I I'm so blown away by the fact that I can be alone.
45:59
Like that is such an exhilarating sensation.
46:01
A an element of the feeling away I never thought was possible.
46:09
That right now I'm very much enjoying being you know, connecting with people, having some fun, but just sort of being on my own right now and that is very new for me. Very new for me. Yeah.
46:23
And I want love in a relationship to be you know, I mean our our stuff's always going to follow us into intimate relationships, I know, but you know, come from a a solid and embodied foundation where I know I'm going into that cuz we're going to love each other and explore life together and grow together and not because I'm clinging to something for dear life. Mhm.
46:50
That sounds like it must be such a such a So I'm single, so I love it.
46:58
No, but That was brilliant.
47:03
I was I was about to say like just how meaningful that must feel like to, you know, it must be it sounds like such a a profound place that you know, it's such a deep space to to feel that centeredness and stillness and being with oneself and that confidence of just is just being in oneself, but you're single, so That's we we're going to throw that out there.
47:30
How do you think the journey and of course you know the communities the trans communities so well, so you would know how how do you think the journey is different when you are in the public eye versus when you're not?
47:39
Like there are the obvious differences of course we've we've talked about like the pressure from success of movies and things like that, but are there any more nuanced or subtle things that some of us could miss in plain sight because you're not living that journey or you're not seeing it? Don't know.
47:57
I mean it's so funny cuz it's just like my I know, yeah.
47:59
strange experience in this in this life.
48:01
Um I mean, maybe in that you're just going through this transition in front of a lot of people.
48:13
Um and having people speculate or Mhm.
48:19
make comments or assumptions about your life and your experience that can often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning.
48:25
And at the same time, everything everything's like, you know, relative.
48:29
Everyone's sort of having that in their own individual orbit.
48:31
And my position obviously comes with such an enormous amount of privilege.
48:38
Like, my life does not reflect the lives of most trans people who deal with, you know, disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence, etc.
48:53
Um particularly black trans people.
48:56
So, I'd be lying if I said there weren't certain elements of this sort of unusual experience that don't have its sort of challenges or difficult moments.
49:05
And at the same time, what I always go back to is uh the degree in which my privilege and resources help and also protect me, you know. Mhm.
49:20
If I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security.
49:25
I could get, you know, pay for surgery to get it quickly.
49:30
You know, all of these aspects that name change, all you know, think about that, all those documents that you you know, your password.
49:36
Like, all of these things that um for those that, you know, don't have the certain privileges and resources I have is is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.
49:49
Yeah, and I'm I'm glad you raised that point because yeah, I think yeah, we have we have to also look at it from that perspective of just again going back to the reality of what these choices and decisions like actually look like in in the real world because similar and and I appreciate that view from you constantly of like looking at it from well, this is what it actually looks like.
50:11
This is what's actually going on.
50:12
This is this is what we may not see if we're only looking at the you know, the And again, that doesn't take away from your journey as well.
50:20
Like that that shouldn't take away from the challenges and stresses and the the realities of what you what you're experiencing, but I I wanted to pivot to sound things because I feel like I feel like the book is just the beginning of so many more exciting incredible uh adventures of of what you'll go on to do and achieve and I heard that you're a big uh history buff.
50:42
Uh and and I'm guessing you're doing a lot of reading there.
50:44
I wonder whether there's any uh has there been And and you talked about even just I I love what you've been saying that just And and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it really the way you express this as is really going to stay with me.
50:58
This idea that the biggest win is just you being able to do the simplest things in a present way.
51:08
Like that will stay with me so much because it's something that we all take for granted so much.
51:12
Like you know, you just I know I do.
51:14
Like it's it's a very easy thing to miss out on.
51:20
And some of us are not even present, but even if we are present, we take that for granted.
51:24
And so the idea that you feel so much present in just having coffee this morning or like reading a book or being with friends in the park or what you know, all those examples you were giving uh yeah, yeah, I wanted to dive into what seeing as you're such a big reader.
51:37
Uh when did you become such a history buff and and what has been the latest historic discovery that that has kind of brought you joy?
51:45
I haven't been reading too much stuff about history. else.
51:50
Any anything you're reading.
51:50
Um lately I've been reading um Octavia Butler cuz I embarrassed to say I hadn't read Octavia Butler before.
51:59
So I just read Wild Seed and Kindred.
52:02
I guess obviously those books have a his fantastical sort of history but obviously a very intense history element to it.
52:12
You know, partic you know, like Wild Seed and Kindred very brutal history.
52:17
I've been reading more novels lately.
52:19
Yeah, obviously both of Octavia Butler's books are novels but also um Our Wives Under the Sea was tremendous.
52:28
Brandon Taylor's new novel.
52:32
I'm trying to Is it called The Last Americans?
52:33
I might be getting the name wrong but his latest novel was amazing.
52:37
So less like history specific But it's all history, yeah.
52:43
But obviously there's historical elements in a lot of the those different things. Yeah.
52:48
Not really the Brandon Taylor one at all.
52:49
No, yeah, not the novel but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the other ones.
52:51
Yeah, no, no, and and and I think that that is the point, right?
52:55
Like I think It looks fun.
52:57
biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all have historical elements to them.
53:01
I mean that's that's where they come from and one part that felt very journal-like in your book was um at the end of the book you described being at the show with Mark. Mhm.
53:12
And having a moment of self-love that you wanted to hold on to and you say taking a deep breath, exhaling exhaling down to my toes, I wanted to hold on to the feeling to pocket the joy.
53:23
The fleeting moments of self-love.
53:25
And I thought that felt very diary-like.
53:28
Like it felt very like journaled thought.
53:30
It's you know, very unique words.
53:34
And I wanted to know like why did you choose to end the book at 16 years old?
53:38
Like again, we talked about the non-linear but specifically to end on that after going through this journey back and forth, what was it what was so Yeah, why why end on 16 years old?
53:52
Yeah, well, I felt like it sort of began the book at this time that was um also involved Mark and was this period of feeling more self-love, feeling closer to myself, falling in love with my first girlfriend Paula, and then you know, that leading up to a moment that was a big pivot in in my life.
54:17
And then to sort of you know, bookend that with this moment 16 Peaches concert what would have been the queerest environment I'd probably been in at that point in my life.
54:38
And the just palpable joy, the electricity of it, and I'll never forget that night.
54:46
I'll never forget walking home with Mark and what that felt like, what that community felt like.
54:55
And to end on that note there at 16 having that atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired me since I was a teenager.
55:09
Um it felt like a special moment to end on. Mhm.
55:11
Yeah, I I definitely felt it and it's it's wonderful to have that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment.
55:20
And you know, Elliot, we I I just want to say how honestly I was so excited to meet you today and and do this interview.
55:32
And I love it when this happens when you get an experience that you didn't know you were going to get.
55:37
And that's how I feel with you today where you can always intellectualize what you think you're going to learn or what you think you're going to gain.
55:43
And I had all those ideas which I definitely have learned so much.
55:47
It's not that I haven't learned, but it's I've kind of been moved more internally and and I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's something that I can express from a deep place within myself.
56:00
And I feel like I've been moved by you sharing your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but also in even getting the opportunity to sit with you today.
56:11
And I only have a couple more questions for you.
56:14
We ask at the end of every interview we do a final five, which is a fast five in the sense that they have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but I always ruin it because I'm so intrigued by all my guests, but I'll try.
56:25
So, Elliot Page, these are your final five.
56:27
The first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
56:32
And it can be about any topic choose it to be about. You know what?
56:37
I don't know why this is popping into my brain, but there's a memory popping in my brain, so I'm like, why not go with this? Mhm.
56:42
And the time in that period when everyone's sort of go-to was, "Your dream's coming true.
56:49
Your dream's coming true.
56:50
Your dream's coming true."
56:52
Kate Winslet said to me, and I was I still am obsessed with Kate Winslet, love, one of just my favorite actors of all time.
57:01
And I was too shy to go up to her at this little party or something.
57:03
It would have been the first time we met.
57:06
She just came up to me and was like oops.
57:08
Obviously, it took me a long time to listen to the advice properly, but she was just like, "Don't let them change you."
57:16
Like, don't Like, you hold on to yourself, essentially. Don't let this Wow.
57:23
And I'll never forget it.
57:23
It was I think the only person in who that whole period basically said anything like that, you know, from that.
57:33
And I've always remembered it and it's always meant a lot to me.
57:37
I think that's a great answer.
57:37
And yeah, what a beautiful statement, don't let them change you. Hold on to yourself. That's That's beautiful. Okay, great.
57:41
Uh second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received? Sure this is easier. Yeah. Yeah.
57:52
Don't be you know, don't tell people you're queer and disguise yourself to to trick them. Mhm.
58:01
Yeah, even those words, disguise yourself to trick them.
58:02
It's like yeah, it's it's hard to live in a disguise and as a trick.
58:09
Which is just so silly, too.
58:09
As if like so you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress like What are we like just the whole binary aspect is just ridiculous. Yeah. What are we trying Yeah. So boring, god. Question number three.
58:23
Uh what is something you used to value that you no longer value?
58:29
I think like a certain I I idea of what we envision success to be. Mhm.
58:32
You know, that's not really that important to me anymore. Mhm.
58:36
Yeah, and that was clear from what you said earlier.
58:38
The idea that you were willing to let it all go if you're allowed to be who you are and be yourself. Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
58:46
It's just like not what success means to me. Mhm. Uh question number four.
58:52
What is something that you're currently trying to unlearn?
58:56
I guess still you know, whatever shame still lingers that was projected onto me by those around me, society.
59:05
Um obviously in a It's so much better place, like so much of it's probably unconscious, but as if it's not, you know, still lingering and still disconnecting from those thoughts or feelings that make you feel small. Mhm.
59:24
And fifth and final question we ask this to every guest who's ever been on this show.
59:28
And I'm really intrigued to hear your answer.
59:29
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
59:33
Kind of You can take your time.
59:38
law um that everybody had to follow. Um don't be a bully. That's a good one. Bullying is outlawed. Yeah.
59:51
Any type of bullying, yeah. Yeah.
59:53
I think that's a good law. Yeah.
59:55
That's a rule needs to become a law. Yeah, I love it.
59:59
Elliot Page, everyone, the book is called Pageboy, a memoir.
1:00:00
If you haven't read it already, highly recommend it.
1:00:05
Read it for your own education. Share it with friends.
1:00:06
Make your next book club pick to be able to discuss it, dissect it.
1:00:11
Support the communities around you.
1:00:13
Support your friends who are on their journey and I'd love for you to share with me and Elliot the thoughts, the reflections, the insights that stayed with you.
1:00:22
There are so many things that I felt and experienced through this conversation that are definitely going to stay with me.
1:00:28
And I'd love to see I know that you're phenomenal at doing this.
1:00:32
You're phenomenal at doing edits and cuts on TikTok and Instagram and X.
1:00:38
And I'd love to see what are those moments in this interview and conversation that are going to stay with you and that you're going to pass on to others.
1:00:45
Elliot, thank you so much for your time, your energy, your presence today.
1:00:50
Like I said, I I I will take this experience around and share it with many people because it's an experience that I've really felt deeply through your words and through your presence today.
1:01:00
And so often when I'm sitting in this chair, the number one feeling I'm having is I wish the world could feel what I'm feeling right now.
1:01:12
Because so often I'm feeling if people could understand the pain, the hurt, the trauma that people like yourself are experiencing and could experience your humanity in the way that I'm experiencing, then maybe we wouldn't treat each other that way.
1:01:30
Then maybe we wouldn't speak to each other that way.
1:01:32
Then maybe we wouldn't impact each other in that negative way.
1:01:38
I'm I'm really thankful I got to spend this time with you and I really hope that more and more people get to experience you through your book and through your work so that they they too can understand more about themselves and more about you. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
1:01:55
If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.
1:02:05
My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for 5 minutes.
1:02:07
It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked.
1:02:15
But day three when I did it, I was like, you know what? Her thighs are cute.