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Our intelligence can sometimes cloud our imperfections.
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You know, we are so intelligent and we're capable of doing so much and what the world could look like if we if we just came together and and and sat and empathized and thought deeply about these issues and and got through some of these kind of more kind of primal aspects that we haven't quite evolved out of yet, we could achieve such a wonderful thing and we could create such a great world.
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But unfortunately, we're nowhere near that yet.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose.
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I am so grateful that you come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Whether you're cooking, whether you're walking, whether you're walking your dog, I am so happy that you've chosen to give me your ears or your views for this time and I couldn't be more excited because today's guest is someone that I've been wanting to sit down with for a long, long time.
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We've been connected online DMing for probably about 3 to 4 years now and he's finally in LA.
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I hear he's moving here, which makes me very, very excited, not just for me, but for everyone else who's going to benefit.
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I'm talking about the one and only Ed Winters.
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Now, for those of you that don't know, Ed is a vegan educator, public speaker, and content creator, widely known for his viral debates, speeches, and video essays.
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He has given speeches across the world including the University of Cambridge, EPFL, Google NYC, and Google Zurich.
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In early 2019, he gave two TEDx Talks surpassing a total of 2 million views online, you can go and check them out, and his speech, You'll Never Look at Your Life in the Same Way Again, has 35 million accumulated views online and has been given to thousands of students across the UK.
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Ed also has debated numerous times on live television and radio and has been featured on the BBC, ITV, and LadBible.
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He co-founded the No Catch Co, which I can't wait to visit in 2021, an ethical vegan fish and chip shop company taking on the traditional British fish and chip shop model.
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And this is something that I'm very excited about today.
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I want you to all go and get this.
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He wrote his debut book, This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies the Meat Industry Tells You.
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Welcome to the show, Ed Winters, or as I like to call him Earthling Ed.
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Ed, thank you for doing this. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on. good to meet you.
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It's a delight to be here and I really appreciate you making time for me and it's yeah, a real privilege. So, thank you.
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no, the feeling is very mutual.
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I've been a fan of what you've been doing.
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Like I said to you before, I came across your videos, I think probably 2017, 2018, and I'd only started my journey in 2016 as well. Sure, yeah.
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And so, I remember seeing it and under your Instagram, Earthling Ed, which again, highly recommend everyone goes and follows.
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And what I really appreciated was this very thoughtful, conscious, intentional sharing and messaging around veganism, around vegan diet, around an understanding of animal welfare, around educating people.
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And up until that point, I'd only ever seen people attack people.
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Or I'd seen people try and scare people.
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Or I'd seen people try and cause fear and I'm not saying any of those things are bad or wrong or shouldn't be done.
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Everyone's allowed to communicate in the way that they feel is best.
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But I really connected to your way of giving a language to the work that you do.
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And so, my wife and I are big fans. She's dying to meet you.
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Uh and now that you're releasing a book as well, which you kindly sent to me, so I've had the fortune of you know, seeing a bit of it.
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What I want to start with is I want to hear about your story of how you got to this point.
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Because I think what we're used to seeing is you debating, you being a very strong-minded vegan, but I want to hear how you got there.
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So, can you tell us where your journey he by telling us where you grew up, what you ate for dinner every day, what your life was like.
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Yeah, so like most people I grew up in a family that uh hadn't really even heard of veganism.
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So I I was raised and we used to laugh about people who are vegetarian.
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We used to think it was kind of a bit of a joke that people wouldn't want to eat meat cuz, you know, meat's delicious and everyone eats meat, so why wouldn't you?
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Um and I remember we used to have this joke around the family dinner table and it was a a very bad joke.
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A very bad joke and it's cringey, but we used to sit around the dinner table be eating, you know, beef casserole, be eating sausages, chicken breast, whatever it might be.
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And uh someone would say something like, "What's the best thing about having a vegetarian around for dinner?"
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And then the other person would go, "More meat for all of us, right?" And it Yeah, exactly.
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It's just like so cringe, but that's the kind of mindset we had.
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And it wasn't that we were against people being vegetarian, we just thought it was a strange thing.
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So I was raised in a very much meat-dominated household.
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We had meat every single day, I had cheese most days, eggs, and I really liked it as well.
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And this kind of continued throughout most of my life until I came to university.
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And all of a sudden I was with a group of people who were vegetarians and it became very normalized for me and I started to think about my relationship with animals.
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Where did you go to university?
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At University of Westminster.
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So I was born in a place called York, which is northern England, and then I moved to London to study when I was when I was 18.
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So I got to university kind of outside of that family dynamic, starting to think a little bit more independently.
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Starting to have some vegetarian friends, and starting to think about my relationship with animals a little bit more.
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I always considered myself to be, you know, someone who cared about animals.
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I mean, we all do because intrinsically we have this, you know, very deep compassionate side to us, which sees the other life forms that we share this planet with as being, uh I think, you know, very much kind of like a sacred um relationship.
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You know, some you know, these are beings who we share so much with and, you know, every action that we partake in influences them in the way that they live in the wildlife or indeed in our homes with the pets that we have.
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So I started to think a little bit more deeply.
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And then in May 2014, I was reading the BBC.
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And I came across this story.
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And it really changed my life forever.
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The story is about this truck carrying around 6 and 1/2 thousand chickens.
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And the truck had crashed while it was going to a slaughterhouse near the city of Manchester, which is again in northern England.
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And I was reading this story.
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And so something made me click on this story to begin with.
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And I was reading this story and I was thinking this is a terrible thing.
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The journalist was saying that hundreds of the birds, you know, had died from the crash.
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Hundreds more were were suffering.
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That word suffering became really important to me because I recognized that the animals who, you know, I consumed had the capacity to suffer.
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It's a really strange thing to recognize because it's obvious.
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We all know that cows, pig, you know, pigs, chickens, lambs, even the marine life that we consume, we know that they suffer.
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But I never really thought about it consciously.
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But the problem was in my fridge was a KFC.
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And I was a huge KFC fan back when I was uh younger.
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I used to go to my local KFC outlets, you know, couple of times a week.
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It was something that was very important to my identity.
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I was proud of my KFC consumption.
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I identified as being someone who who did this.
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It was almost like this bi-weekly pilgrimage, almost, you know.
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It really formed a huge part of my life.
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My my girlfriend and I, we would always get KFC, watch a film.
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It was part of our relationship.
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But I had KFC in my fridge at that time where I was reading this story.
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And I remember just thinking about it and thinking, "Well, am I being hypocritical here, you know?
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Are my actions not in alignment with my values?
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Am I in a bit of a state of cognitive dissonance where I say one thing, you know, I I care about animals.
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I I'm against animal suffering.
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Yet through this recognition of what these chickens are enduring and the realization that they're going to a slaughterhouse, you know, where they were meant to end up is not much better, really, potentially even worse than where they were on the side of the road, of course."
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So I went vegetarian at that point because I kind of faced this fork in the road.
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And it was, you know, maybe I could bury my head in the sand, just kind of get on with it, you know, pretend that I'm not uncomfortable about this, or I can accept that there's something here that has compelled me to want to make a change in my life. So, I went vegetarian.
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And then 8 months later, I became vegan.
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And now, I went vegan because of a documentary called Earthlings, but really my my girlfriend pushed me to do it.
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Now, I'm a little bit you know, a little bit cynical at times.
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I can be a little bit um I don't know the word is a little bit stoic, you know, and maybe sometimes I don't want to accept change in my life.
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But she's she's quite the opposite.
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She's very open-minded to things that you know, thankfully speaking.
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So, she says, "Ed, you know, we should watch this documentary called Earthlings.
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You know, it's about why we should be vegan."
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And I said, "Veganism, really? Me? No, no, no. Vegetarian's fine.
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I can do that, but veganism is a bit extreme, you know?
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These people, you know, they're they're very forceful. They're a bit militant. They're very preachy.
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I And I don't want to be one of those vegans."
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And she said, "No, you should you should watch it."
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So, I put it off and put it off and put it off.
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And then, one morning we woke up.
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And you know, I'm a little bit lazy in the mornings.
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It takes me a little bit a little bit of a while to get out of bed.
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And my girlfriend knows this very well, of course.
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So, she took advantage of it. She gets the laptop.
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She puts the documentary on and she says, "Look, Ed, you can get out of bed, or you can stay and watch the documentary."
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And I went, "Oh, that's a hard bargain, that." So, I watched it.
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90 minutes later, um I was, you know, kind of shell-shocked, really.
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The the The documentary's not pleasant. It isn't.
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It's It's objective about what happens to animals.
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It's all based in the US, but it's objective about what happens to animals in farms and slaughterhouses and and other places as well where we do things we do to them, sadly.
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Um and I had a little pet hamster at the time called Rupert.
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And he was just the most adorable hamster ever.
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I'd never had pets growing up, really.
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So, Rupert was kind of the first animal I spent any considerable time with.
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And he was just this adorable little little little being.
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And he loved broccoli so much. He just loved broccoli.
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Any time you gave him broccoli, he'd be so happy. But he never liked kale.
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You know, he didn't like kale, which I can kind of relate to, to be fair.
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But he loved broccoli and didn't like kale.
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So, I I recognized he had likes and dislikes.
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So, after the film had finished, and I was, you know, I was very upset, very shaken.
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I got Rupert out and had him in my hands.
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And I'm looking at him, and I give him some broccoli cuz he loves broccoli, right?
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And I give him some broccoli, and I'm watching him eat.
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And he's got his little paws, and he's just so cute.
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And I'm thinking, "Wow, you know, Rupert, this small, tiny animal has so much about him that I really admire.
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His likes, his dislikes, his personality.
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You know, things that make him unique.
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You know, hamsters love running on wheels.
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Well, not Rupert the hamster.
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Rupert the hamster hated running on his wheel. He'd got no exercise.
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His cardiovascular health must have been dreadful.
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You know, and I got my ball to run around the apartment.
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And you know, the see-through balls that they can run around in. And he wouldn't use it. He would just sit there.
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He just likes being around us.
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He'd sit on the sofa with us.
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And so, there was things that made him unique.
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And I thought, "Well, if Rupert has so much individuality about him, well, what about all the chickens and pigs and cows and even salmon and tuna?
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What about all of these other animals?"
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And even as a vegetarian, I was abstaining from a huge part of the problem, but there was still all the other aspects, the the dairy, the eggs, and the the, you know, the clothing, the leather, the wool, the things I didn't really think about even as a vegetarian.
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And I thought, "What about all these animals who go through these processes, who were individuals with likes and dislikes, who can feel, who can, you know, suffer, and and also experience pleasure and happiness as well?"
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You know, animals experience, you know, positive emotions, not just negative emotions as of course we do.
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What makes them different to Rupert?
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And I couldn't come to think of a justification for continuing.
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So, yeah, I went vegan, and that was that.
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Wow, and your girlfriend at the time was already vegan?
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No, we went vegan together, but she was making changes before I was.
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You know, she was thinking proactively.
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She was, you know, we had almond milk and soy milk in the fridge.
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You know, we'd made small steps because she had been influencing me to do so.
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Um and she she knew that if I sat down and watched this documentary, that would be it.
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And I knew it as well, which is why I turned a blind eye.
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And I think that's another thing that often happens is there's something called the ostrich effect, which is kind of like a cognitive bias.
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So, basically, when we are confronted with information that makes us feel uncomfortable, when there's the prospect of something that might challenge us in a way that, you know, we perceive to be inconvenient, we can just turn a blind eye to it.
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And I think what we do to animals is a great example of this.
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I think we've all had a moment where we've maybe seen something shared online, or we've had a conversation with a friend who's maybe vegan, or we've just looked at a piece of meat on our dinner plate and just thought for a moment, just had a you know, something pass through our minds.
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And in that moment, we can kind of do two things, you know, acknowledge or turn a blind eye.
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And I we often turn a blind eye cuz it's easier and more comfortable to do so.
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And that's what I was doing, you know, I knew I knew what happened deep down.
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I knew there was something about it that made me feel uncomfortable, but I ignored it for so long.
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And uh she was confronting that a little bit earlier than I was and thankfully pushed me to confront it as well because you know, through that confrontation of our values, we can strive to be more in alignment with who we truly are as individuals.
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And I think that's a powerful thing that I've realized about being vegan is it's just it's pushed me to re-evaluate my place, you know, my relationship with others, how I interact with humans as well as animals, just you know, how my actions impact the world around me and how we are vessels who can create, you know, a more positive world or a more negative world.
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And sometimes we feel disempowered in life, you know, especially with some of the geopolitical things that go on, we can feel very disempowered.
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But for me, one of the greatest things about veganism is the empower- empowerment to know that we can make a difference every day, you know, a positive difference.
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And she encouraged me to to learn that early on. I love that.
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Our Our journeys got some similarities to it.
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So, when I I grew up eating meat as well.
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And similar to you, like going to McDonald's was like our birthday Yeah. like experience.
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Like I used to love going to McDonald's for my birthday.
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And I remember when I was around probably around 15 years old, and I used to walk past the butcher's every day on my way to school and on my way back to back from school at a bus stop.
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And I would walk past these butchers, I can see the street where I grew up right now on Green Lanes and they would hang a lot of the animals in in the window. Yeah.
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And I never ate a chicken that looked like that.
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To me a chicken looked like this perfect crispy round burger. Yeah. Right?
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That's what chicken looked like to me.
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And I ate pork sausages, but they never looked like pigs hanging.
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I I just ate the pork sausages that you buy in the store.
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And so for me when I would walk past that butcher's every day on the way to school and on the way back from school, that's when it started to hit me where I was like, "No, no, no, that's the same thing."
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Like I couldn't bear to look at a hanging pig or couldn't bear to look at a hanging chicken, but I would get really excited about eating my burger and I I wouldn't make the connection when I ate the burger until that point.
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And so I remember deciding that I would become vegetarian at the time.
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And I lasted around 3 months before I went back into a McDonald's. Right, yeah.
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3 months later, I was craving it so badly for taste. Yeah.
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And then from that point on I never have eaten meat since that day.
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And so that was around I was 15 16 years old.
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And so that's been around 18 years now.
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And then it was my wife who introduced me more to plant-based and vegan.
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She's been vegan for like 10 years now.
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And so she's been vegan for a long time and she's the one who trained me and helped me shift my habits and also be a healthy vegan and not become an unhealthy vegan and all these beautiful things that she's thought about.
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And you see that and you sit down with students, you sit down with people from all over the world, from all walks of life and here there you debate them, you hear their answers, you hear their options and their opportunities.
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I want to go back to talking about when you made that journey and you made that shift.
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Did you ever land up at the other side of becoming the militant version that you didn't want to be? Oh, I I have at times.
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And I think that's that encouraged me to um hopefully become more effective as an advocate to someone who speaks about this issue.
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I remember when I'd first kind of gone vegan, I started to first you kind of venture into kind of like activism, education, you know, and I was uploading some videos and I had this this conversation with two South African guys in Trafalgar Square in London.
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And I was asking them, you know, some questions about animals and they were telling me that they hunted in South Africa and they thought it was okay if it was humane.
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And I said, "What does this word humane mean?"
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Cuz we throw this, you know, this word humane around a lot when we talk about our treatment of animals.
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You know, and they said, "Well, you know, we think it an example of a humane death might be some electricity and then, you know, the uh the knife, you know."
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And I said, "How would you like that to happen to a family member?"
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And I was quite abrupt about it and they were really taken aback.
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And they said uh they were very unhappy about what I'd said.
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And it was the manner in which I'd said it.
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And I reflected a lot on that moment because their reaction to me showed that I'd actually been very ineffective in what I was trying to do.
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And the way that they kind of like seemed very accosted by that comment and and the manner, the tone of my voice, the language, my body language, which is of course so important when we're communicating, how we look as opposed to, you know, as well as how we say things and what we say.
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And I reflected a lot after that because I realized that I was kind of fulfilling that stereotype.
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Now, vegans do have a stereotype whether, you know, for better or for worse, whether it's true or not, some people do fulfill that stereotype, but many vegans don't, most vegans don't.
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And I think often we build up this caricature almost of what a vegan is because in a way it allows us to distance ourselves from being vegan, you know, "Oh, I don't want to be like them."
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Which is exactly what I used to be like, "I don't want to be like them because they're like this."
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When actually it stops us from thinking about the arguments, but I realized in that moment I was kind of fulfilling that stereotype.
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Which is everything I don't want to do.
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And my content, I try mostly, you know, as much as I can in the situations I'm in to try and not be that person that seems like they're taking a position that is judgmental, is looking down on someone, and is instead hopefully asking people questions in a way that encourages them to think proactively for themselves.
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And so, like you said, I try very hard to have conversations with people from all across the spectrum.
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So, I have conversations with people who've never thought about these issues before, who are just casual, you know, meat-eating agnostics, who aren't necessarily that invested in doing so, but just do it because they always have.
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But, I also have conversations with people on the other end of the spectrum, you know, farmers, people who are very much ingrained in these systems, whose families farmed animals, you know, whose grandparents farmed animals, who are, you know, as much in these cultures and communities as we are in our own cultures and communities, you know, it forms their identities.
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And I always try to take that same approach of trying to understand people's viewpoints.
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We live in a a slightly troubling time when it comes to the disconnection and division that exists.
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The US is a great example, but it's not just here, let's be honest.
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And veganism can have what seems to be at times an element of division to it.
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But, ultimately, the way that I see it is that, like everyone else in this world, hopefully, by and large, vegans are just trying to make this world a little bit better.
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Just trying to reduce suffering, you know, improve the environment, improve people's health.
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And I think we all share that in common.
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So, when I have a conversation with a farmer who's in that who's in that mindset, you know, I try and view it from their perspective, which is, you know, they want to see the same things I do.
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It's just we've split apart because of the way that we were raised on how to get there.
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And so, it's just about me trying to show them, well, actually, the way that you've been raised, as well as that as well as creating validity in your views, doesn't actually create authenticity in the objectivity of your views.
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What I mean by that is it doesn't make them right.
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So, I try and see people where they are, but encourage them to to reflect, to look beyond their views, to look beyond their culture, to look beyond their communities, to look beyond their social groups and social norms, and reflect on something larger, which is, you know, how do we all achieve what we want to achieve, which is hopefully a world of more cohesion and less suffering.
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Humans, animals, to everyone.
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And what you just said is beautiful because that's what the human capacity of the mind is for.
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Like we know that animals struggle to see beyond certain barriers.
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And even then we see animals, you know, drag different animals off the street and do these beautiful acts of kindness.
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But overall as humans, we do have the broad-mindedness and the capacity to see beyond just our territory. You're absolutely right.
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And so when I when I'm listening to you, I'm wondering because I know a lot of people who saw Earthlings, who saw What were some of the others? Game Changers?
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What were the other ones that were quite popular?
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Dominion was a popular one.
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Cowspiracy has been popular.
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Cowspiracy, that was really Yeah, so I had a lot of friends actually who saw those.
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And they all did the same thing.
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They became vegan straight after watching it.
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But then it wasn't sustainable for them.
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They didn't know how to bring it into their diet.
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Tell me about how you made it sustainable.
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How did it really work because it's been 6 years for you now.
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That's I would say it's a fairly long time since you discovered this path and know about it.
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How have you made it sustainable?
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How have you made it healthy for yourself because I think the biggest thing people struggle with that I know that have watched those documentaries is not that they disagree, it's that they're just like, "Jay, I'm putting on weight.
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I'm eating fried food all the time.
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I'm I I don't know how to cook with it.
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I don't know what I'm doing." Yeah.
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And then 6 weeks later I've had many friends go back.
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So walk us through how you made it sustainable.
20:43
Yeah, I mean, it's a really good point.
20:45
And I'll I'm just before I touch on that, I just wanted to just reiterate the point that you just made just previous to that which I thought was really interesting, which is, you know, it's an important thing to recognize that humans and non-human animals are vastly different from one another as are all animal species, you know.
20:59
We as humans have capabilities and capacities that other animals on this planet don't have.
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And intellect, you know, moral agency, uh height, you know, heightened cognitive capacities.
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These are all things that humans hold, which other animals don't.
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Not in the same ways that we do, at least.
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Um but I think with that comes a great deal of responsibility.
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You know, there's a quote from Spider-Man.
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Uncle Ben says, "With great power comes great responsibility."
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And I think that's a great great thing because we as humans do have power. We have so much power.
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We have power over each other, but we have power over the world and over animals within this world.
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And so, when we have that situation of authority, we have kind of two choices, don't we?
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We can either be kind of tyrannical and abusive with our power and authority, or we can kind of be stewards and nurturers.
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Like parents, you know, parents have ultimate power over their children.
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And but we see children because of the disadvantagement of their, you know, lack of cognition, lack of agency, parents have a responsibility to look after children.
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We in a society have the responsibility to look after those less privileged than us, who don't have the situations that we have, who are maybe disenfranchised or or weakened within the constructs of of the society that we live in.
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How we should live is those with power should look after those who who don't have those same attributes that we do.
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And I I think the relationship with animals is the same.
22:14
We as humans are absolutely more dominant and can be more dominant.
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But that dominance doesn't give us the right to arbitrarily harm.
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Quite the opposite, I think, you know, to look after and nurture and and try and create a better world, you know, not just for us.
22:27
But let's come back to the point you made because this is you raised that.
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I'm really glad you said that, Karen.
22:31
Yeah, the point that you made is potentially one of the most important points.
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The recognition that we want to change is really important.
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But then the capacity to do that is very different.
22:40
So, for me, when I first went vegan, I made a dreadful mistake, which is I only ate kale and quinoa, all right?
22:43
I thought, you know, vegans eat this type of food, therefore I have to eat this type of food.
22:49
And you should eat kale and quinoa.
22:50
They're two great food sources.
22:51
But I was eating a lot of quinoa and kale and thinking, "Why don't I feel full?
22:54
You know, why don't I feel satiated?"
22:56
And I realized that I was taking out, you know, big kind of calorie-dense foods that were kind of full of protein and full of fat and I wasn't replace them with necessarily good alternatives.
23:05
So I was eating less calories than I should have done so I was feeling hungrier and maybe wasn't eating enough.
23:09
So I think the first thing to do is to research.
23:11
Really important to research because what we want as you know, as we change into this new way of life is to make sure that we do it in a way that optimizes the longevity of that change.
23:21
As you say people do it for a little bit and then they go back because it's more comfortable, more convenient or maybe you know, they don't feel like they're they're eating enough and they're not full enough and so they think well this vegan thing doesn't work for me.
23:34
So what we have to do is do a little bit of research.
23:35
So I always say to people recognize why you want to make the change.
23:38
Then sit down and look at okay, protein sources. Really easy.
23:41
It's really easy when you look at it but it's it feels like it's a big thing when you're before you're vegan.
23:46
So look at protein sources, how do I get protein?
23:49
Look at iron especially if you're a young woman, how do you get your iron? Really important. Zinc, you know, omega-3.
23:53
Just do a little bit of research and look into how you can do it.
23:57
And then also don't be afraid to experiment.
23:59
Now the thing about being vegan is you don't have to reinvent the wheel.
24:02
That's what I like about it.
24:02
You know, for me when I first went vegan it was a different time.
24:05
There was not the options that we have now.
24:08
There was not the recipes online like in the abundance they are now.
24:13
I mean your wife Rowdy has so much great food on her Instagram, you know, so she's a great resource and Instagram is a great resource for people looking to find, you know, plant-based meals and plant-based foods.
24:21
So do a little bit of research.
24:22
Find some meals that you like but also take the meals you already like and simplify it down. For me I love pasta.
24:27
I've I've always loved pasta.
24:29
But I also like stir-fries, curries, burritos, nachos, tacos, fajitas, whatever it might be.
24:34
Find what aspect of it isn't vegan.
24:36
Okay, spaghetti bolognese is easy.
24:38
It's the beef mince, right?
24:39
So take out the cow from the meal and replace it with soy mince or lentils or you know, whatever you want to replace it with.
24:45
You can cook it exactly the same way and you just changed one thing and you eat the exact same food.
24:49
So I think just making small replacements to meals you already like just simplifies it down because otherwise we think I've got to eat all this vegan food and it's going to be really tricky cuz I'm changing everything about my life and it doesn't have to be that way.
25:01
So, just those little incremental changes in the in the foods that you're consuming go a long way and then just being empowered to know where you're getting nutrients from.
25:09
How am I going to be healthy?
25:09
Am I hitting my my daily targets?
25:11
And if you're especially worried, there are sites like Cronometer.
25:17
Basically, it's just like a website.
25:17
I think you can get an app on your phone and you just log your food.
25:19
So, you put I've had, you know, 80 g of brown rice, 100 g of broccoli whatever it might be.
25:25
And it tells you the calories, it tells you the nutrients.
25:27
And so, at the end of the day you can go, "Yep, I got all the calories.
25:29
Uh here's my iron, here's my protein. It's all good.
25:31
Calcium could be a bit higher, so tomorrow I'll have, you know, another glass of soy milk or something."
25:35
And then you can just cater your diet and your lifestyle around that because you know you're hitting your targets.
25:39
Yeah, I think that's a good thing to do. Yeah, yeah.
25:41
And and I guess when you've been doing it, you you seem fairly healthy, so that's a good thing. Hopefully so.
25:45
Yeah, and that was it for me, too.
25:46
Like, I cut out dairy because I was already vegetarian.
25:49
When I married Radhi, I cut out dairy basically the night we got married.
25:53
And so, as soon as the next day when we were moved into our home and everything, we were now not eating any dairy.
26:00
So, the hardest things for me were cheese and chocolate because I love chocolate and adore chocolate.
26:06
It's like my favorite thing in the world.
26:07
And cheese, of course, right? Yeah.
26:09
And actually, the crazy thing is since that So, that's been 5 years for me since we got married and I feel so much better just on the basis of how I feel. Yeah.
26:18
I didn't do it for that reason.
26:20
I didn't I did it for animals, like understanding that I was so disconnected.
26:24
I did it from that point of view, but I feel so much better for it and I'm healthier for it because I'm not consuming as much sugar through the chocolate.
26:32
Radhi's introduced me to all these naturally sweetened cacao nibs and all this kind of stuff.
26:37
So, I eat this thing called monk fruit, ironically. Oh, I know monk fruit.
26:41
Yeah, from Lakanto or something.
26:41
There's a brand like that.
26:42
And there's no artificial sugars, no they're all naturally sweetened with monk fruit, so that's been better for me.
26:49
Cutting out cheese, I've just cut out cheese completely.
26:51
So, I barely eat even vegan cheese options because I'm enjoying just trying new foods and experiencing new flavors.
26:57
And so, I feel like making it sustainable is so important.
27:02
But now, let's let's go macro.
27:03
I wanted to talk about the vegan propaganda, the book that is out right now that I'd love for people to go and read. You have three parts.
27:09
It's a question of morality, playing with fire, and breaking down the barriers.
27:14
So, we started very micro about your journey.
27:15
I want to zoom out and go macro now. Sure.
27:21
Let's talk about morality because I find, as we've talked about, for a lot of people it's as simple as being Rupert.
27:27
This is what I like and this is what I don't like, right?
27:29
Like Rupert likes broccoli, doesn't like kale.
27:31
I like meat, I don't like vegetables or fruits. There's that option.
27:35
There's also the idea of, but what's wrong with it, right?
27:39
They They aren't as smart as us, as we both already agreed, or they can't make those decisions and choices.
27:46
They've been created for that.
27:46
That's what they're there for.
27:48
They're on the planet for.
27:50
When you're looking at morality as a whole, I'm wondering how are you trying to help people understand that being an animal lover and eating meat don't go hand in hand.
28:01
For me, this issue of morality comes down to our capacity to have a choice.
28:05
You know, obviously, it's important to recognize that throughout most of our history as humans, we were hunter-gatherers, right?
28:13
You know, we hunted to survive.
28:13
Meat has always formed a big part of our diet.
28:15
It provided us sustenance and nutrients when we needed it during those times.
28:21
And, you know, it it got us to where we are, allowed us to live as a species and survive and thrive, along with all the berries that we foraged and all the nuts that we foraged.
28:27
All of that combined to us being where we are now.
28:29
But we live in a unique time.
28:31
We have been able to understand what our bodies need to survive.
28:36
We understand vitamins and nutrients and minerals.
28:38
That's only, you know, something we've done in the past 100 years, really.
28:42
Um we recognize other plant, you know, where we can get these sources from in plant foods.
28:45
So, we have an intelligence and education that we didn't have before.
28:50
We also know more about animals.
28:50
Now, back through our history, we used to view animals as kind of these automatons, right?
28:54
They were They were with us, but they weren't sentient. They didn't feel.
28:59
You know, we were very flippant in our treatment of animals.
29:00
We We are still today, of course, but now we understand more about animals.
29:05
We understand their complexity.
29:07
You know, we we look at uh documentaries about animals in the wild, and we see them do amazing things.
29:15
But more than that, we we understand and appreciate their individuality in a way that previously we probably didn't, right?
29:20
So, we have an education about how we can be vegan, but we also have an education about animals.
29:23
And because we understand what animals are able to feel, and we have an understanding of what they endure through the processes in which we you know, put them in.
29:33
We can recognize something about them, which is that they are having a subjective experience.
29:40
So, what I mean by that is we farm 80 billion land animals every single year.
29:44
When you factor in marine animals, that number becomes 0. 8 to 2. 3 trillion.
29:49
That's how many marine animals we kill fish. 0. 8 to 2.
29:51
3 trillion every single year.
29:53
It's a staggering number, right? Huge. Huge. 80 billion land animals.
30:00
And that those numbers are shocking, and and we say those numbers and we think, "Wow, that's big."
30:03
But they're very hard to understand because they're so huge.
30:07
It's just a It's just a statistic, isn't it? It's just a number. How does that look?
30:11
How do we quantify what that means? It's almost impossible.
30:15
So, the best way to look at it is that out of all of those billions and trillions, each and every one of those is an individual.
30:20
Now, to me, this is where it gets disturbing and alarming because I think about everything that we do to an animal.
30:28
And I think about every single individual animal is experiencing that on their own.
30:33
You know, when we suffer, we suffer as individuals.
30:35
Obviously, we can share that in the the empathy of other suffering, but the pain that we feel is pain that we feel.
30:42
And when things happen to us, we embody that for our anxieties, our fears, our terrors, our worries, and of course the the visceral and physical feeling of what we're enduring as well.
30:50
I think about each and every individual animal enduring that.
30:53
And that just magnifies the scale to me in a way that you can't recognize within those purely, you know, statistical numbers.
31:01
Because when we hone in on each individual animal enduring that, I think, "Wow, you know, every decision we make has an impact on someone."
31:08
We often don't think of animals as someones. We call them it.
31:09
You know, it's a chicken. It's a pig. They're only a chicken. They're only a pig.
31:14
But what we fail to recognize is to that pig or chicken, their life is as valuable to them as ours is to us, because we we have one life.
31:22
And they may not be able to rationalize the concept of death and the concept of not existing in the way that we can, but they avoid situations of fear.
31:30
They avoid situations that cause them suffering.
31:32
They they value pleasure and pain over negative environments, because they value being content.
31:40
And really, when we boil down our existence, that's all we want as well, to be content, to be happy.
31:42
I mean, your work is about making people feel as an individual like they belong to themselves.
31:48
You know, you're increasing people's autonomy.
31:51
You're increasing people's self-esteem.
31:53
You're giving them a sense of self-worth.
31:54
You know, your work and and I think so much of what you do, which is so amazing, is you empower people to believe in themselves as an individual.
32:03
And so, what I'm saying about that is we value ourselves.
32:05
Well, they value themselves as well.
32:06
And what we do to them is we deny them their autonomy.
32:08
We deny them the right to their own body.
32:12
And so, it becomes an issue of morality, because we don't have to do that anymore.
32:14
We don't have to do these things to them anymore, because we have the education and awareness to know that there are other ways.
32:21
And so, to simplify it down, just just add a ask a really simple question.
32:27
Are we against animal cruelty?
32:29
Do we think that reducing animal suffering is morally preferable to not?
32:34
Everyone says yes to that, and everyone says that they're against animal cruelty.
32:39
So then we have to say, "Well, what does being cruel to someone mean?"
32:42
Being cruel to someone means causing them physical or mental, emotional, psychological harm for an unnecessary reason.
32:48
Something that doesn't need to happen, but negatively impacts them in a non-consensual way.
32:52
That's being cruel to someone, whether it's bullying, whether it's something a bit more abusive, whatever it might be.
32:58
But what we do to animals must therefore constitute an act of cruelty because we we don't have to do it, and it causes them physical harm, mental harm, emotional harm, and it's non-consensual.
33:07
You know, these animals, they don't they don't willfully agree to be exploited.
33:11
This is not an environment they wish to be in.
33:14
And then we put them in something called a slaughterhouse, and we call them humane.
33:18
Cuz what what does the word humane mean?
33:20
Well, if we open up a thesaurus, find the word humane in the thesaurus, okay, where does what are the synonyms? What words mean humane?
33:24
We see compassionate, we see benevolent, we see kind.
33:27
If I call you a humane person, I'm saying that you're inherently a good person who who values others and their feelings, and you want to be compassionate, and you are a humane person, Jay, because you embody all of those those characteristics.
33:40
But then what happens in the slaughterhouse couldn't possibly be humane because it's not compassionate to exploit someone else needlessly.
33:45
It's not It's not benevolent to take the life of someone when we don't have to.
33:49
You know, and and many of us do have pets in our life, dogs, cats.
33:55
And it's a sad thing to say, but unfortunately, we will probably live to see them be euthanized.
33:58
It's a very sad time for people to experience the loss of a family member cuz that's how we view these animals as family members.
34:06
Would we ever take them to a slaughterhouse to be euthanized? Never.
34:10
The thought of that would would offend people.
34:12
It'd make them so sad to think of their beloved family member enduring that.
34:15
Well, then it can't be humane. It can't be.
34:17
So, when we talk about this issue of morality, fundamentally, it's we don't have to do this.
34:22
They're sentient beings who feel.
34:23
They're very different to us, but what makes them morally relevant is their capacity to suffer, experience pain, the fact that they do value their own life, they value their own existence, they seek to be with their families if that's what is in their nature.
34:36
You know, cows form these strong matriarchal herds, chickens have these flocks.
34:43
They form deep connections with one another and they can form deep connections with us when we give them the chance to like animal sanctuaries and and places where they're not, you know, used and exploited and killed.
34:53
So, that's why it's a moral issue for me for just in general. answer.
34:56
What a great answer, Abe.
34:56
I really appreciate that answer because I was listening to you thinking just how much culture and tradition impacts it, too.
35:03
So, I remember going to India for the first time ever when I was 9 years old and when I lived as a monk there for plenty of time, a big part of it was caring for cows.
35:13
Uh cows are seen as a sacred animal in India and in families growing up in India, if you look, you know, years ago, a cow would be the family pet.
35:20
I mean, it wouldn't be a pet, it would be considered a mother, but it would be considered part of the family.
35:24
And the cow would give you milk and the cow would be taken care of and the cow would be loved and adored and revered.
35:32
And you'd almost find dogs that would just walk around stray on the street and people wouldn't give them the attention we see in the west.
35:37
So, why do you think we've been able to build up such a deep loving relationship with dogs and cats?
35:45
But why do you think we've struggled?
35:47
Because I've seen people play with cows the way we play with our dogs and I know that sounds really strange to anyone who's never seen it, but I've seen people in India hold their cow and hug their cows and and have that same very deep intimate relationship with the cow, but in the west we don't really ever experience that apart from with the dog and a cat.
36:07
Why have we been so good at giving our compassion and love there, but not there?
36:11
I think there's kind of like a utility aspect to this.
36:12
What I mean by that is historically, uh especially I guess in the cultures where we've been, we've we we gave dogs like a task and that task was often been a lookout for us.
36:23
So, they would pull our our um equipment, you know, like us on and such.
36:28
And so, we've we've always often valued dogs but in a different way to the other animals.
36:31
We've used cows as like farm labor.
36:33
We've used, you know, other animals in different capacities.
36:37
But for dogs, we've always had a little bit more of an intimate relationship because of the nature of the work that we used to, you know, use them for.
36:43
And then as we started to evolve as a species and we no longer needed, you know, kind of the ancestors of huskies to be our lookouts, cuz of course, you know, from wolves.
36:51
And so, we no longer needed them to look out for us.
36:53
So, we no longer needed them to pull our sledges.
36:55
And our relationship with these animals started to change.
36:58
Because we still had a connection with them, we started to view them a little bit differently.
37:02
So, what we do is we categorize animals differently.
37:06
So, we have wild animals, for instance.
37:08
And if someone poaches a wild animal, you know, Cecil the lion killer, there's an uproar because in our minds, we categorize them as being not for that purpose. They exist in the wild.
37:17
We don't need to get anything from them.
37:18
They don't They don't need to earn our respect, you know, they do their own thing.
37:23
And then we have kind of pets.
37:25
And they've earned our respect in a different way.
37:26
They've earned the right to live in our eyes because we can form a emotional response with them. We have for our history.
37:33
They can provide utility as members of our family, provide us with love, provide us with comfort, provide us with mental health support, which is a, you know, a great thing that pets can do as well.
37:41
And by pets, I use the word pets cuz it's kind of like a conventional term.
37:44
What I mean is kind of companion animals.
37:46
And let me just explain what I mean by that briefly.
37:49
When I say companion animals, it's just to reiterate the point that they are kind of coexisting with us in our relationships, in our families.
37:55
The word pet almost signifies like we have some sort of authority over them, and we do.
38:00
But when we say companions, it kind of symbolizes that relationship more wholesomely, I think.
38:04
It symbolizes that we coexist together, and they're here for our life, and we're there for theirs.
38:10
So, it's kind of a bit more wholesome. So, companion animals.
38:11
So, we've categorized these animals as being companions because the utility from what we get from them is different.
38:19
But then we've categorized this other section of of animals. We call them food.
38:22
What we've essentially done is we've otherized them.
38:24
Otherizing is a you know a very toxic thing that we we've done with other humans as well, where we put them in a different classification and then we value them differently.
38:32
And then we create justifications to explain why they're in that category.
38:37
So, what we said before, they're not as intelligent as us.
38:40
Oh, pigs are dirty, chickens are stupid.
38:42
We we've kind of created these arbitrary classifications for these animals and then we treat them differently because we've classified them differently.
38:50
Things that we would never do to companion animals, things that we would never like to happen to wild animals, we can do arbitrarily to these animals because they're the food animals.
38:59
And so their place in this world and our relationship with them and the utility we can get from them is different and that's why they're here.
39:07
So, part of the part of it is is obviously cultural.
39:09
The question to ask ourselves is what is something moral simply because it's cultural?
39:13
I think we all agree that that's not the case and we look for our history, don't we?
39:16
We see examples of things that were cultural, examples of things that were traditional, but were not moral.
39:22
And thankfully we challenged ourselves to understand that and we changed our relationship with the oppressed in those scenarios to hopefully try and create better systems of more equality, which obviously still needs a lot of work on as well.
39:33
But when it comes to the animals that we've categorized as food, culturally we have ingrained this behavior.
39:40
Culturally of we have allowed this to become such a dominant viewpoint that we never really think about it.
39:44
What's interesting is as children we don't have these categorizations.
39:50
Give a 4-year-old child a piglet and a puppy.
39:52
The child isn't going to push the piglet to one side and say, you know, kill this animal, but let me love this animal.
39:59
The child enjoys the company of both because they've they they don't see that distinction yet.
40:04
We raise children to start to view animals differently.
40:06
It's this term called speciesism.
40:07
Um basically what it means is that we arbitrarily exploit different animals based on the species they're born into.
40:14
So, you know, we harm a pig because they're a pig.
40:16
If that pig was a dog, it'd be different.
40:18
But, you know, fundamentally, the moral distinction between those animals is is non-existent.
40:24
Pigs and dogs are very similar in in their intelligence, in their sociability, in all these different ways.
40:31
But, because we see them as that species, they look the way they do, that's why we harm them, because of their view, you know, their appearance.
40:38
And that's what speciesism is.
40:38
It's kind of addressing that we we we're arbitrarily harming this being, this individual, because of the way they look, because of how they were born, because of the species, the body they were born into.
40:49
So, anyway, we have these cultures and traditions that are ingrained throughout our history for hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years.
40:53
And we don't ever really think about them critically, because why would we?
40:57
Our peers do it, our parents engage in this, our society is engaged in this, it's legal.
41:05
But, then does legality equal morality?
41:07
Again, history shows us that it shouldn't be that case, and it clearly isn't.
41:11
So, when we start to think a little bit more deeply about each of these individual arguments that we use, we start to realize that actually they don't really justify at all what we do to these animals, and that cultures and traditions should be challenged.
41:20
Because we we do look across the world, and we we see what happens to dogs in Asia, for example.
41:26
It's a it's a, you know, a classic example.
41:30
Um, we sign petitions demanding for it to stop.
41:32
You know, this is an abomination.
41:33
We shouldn't be doing this to dogs.
41:36
Oh, but I want to eat my bacon sandwich.
41:38
Oh, but I want my fried chicken burger.
41:40
Which is what the person I used to be.
41:41
But, if we think, well, actually, outside of the culture that we're raised in, outside of the fact that we view dogs as companions and pigs and chickens as food, what really is the difference other than that arbitrary classification?
41:52
Because you put a dog in in a in a farm, in a slaughterhouse, and you put a pig in a farm in a slaughterhouse, and you put a cow in a farm and then in a slaughterhouse, they experience each of those individual actions identically.
42:02
To the individual in those environments, there is no different to the difference to the experience that they're enduring. Yeah.
42:10
The only difference is our perception. Mhm.
42:11
So, we view them as different, but when we break away that perception and we view them not as being, you know, as different in their own right in their own right, but similar in the ways that matter, all of a sudden we recognize if it's wrong for this animal, well, then it must be wrong for this animal, and it must be wrong for that animal. Yeah.
42:24
And I think that's what we need to do more is just challenge those deeply ingrained and normalized behaviors, the ones that we don't even think about, the unconscious ones.
42:33
And that's And that's really where it comes at for me, like, you know, I again, and and I love what you just said there, too.
42:39
It's like, I grew up eating meat.
42:41
So, I very clearly understand at that time, when I ate meat, I had no idea what the word vegetarian even was to some degree.
42:50
I didn't know what veganism was, for sure.
42:51
And I didn't know about any other diet that existed apart from what I ate.
42:55
And so, now when I look at that, I recognize that and this is why I'm hoping this podcast is going to help a lot of people, because you're so brilliant at educating, and I think you do that wonderfully.
43:07
And this education is what's missing.
43:08
It's not that people are bad people.
43:11
I don't judge anyone who eats meat, because I ate meat myself.
43:15
So, I understand how easy it is to be in that space where you are making these distinctions.
43:21
And what I love about the way you just broke that down is because you're spot-on that throughout history, we've done that to humans that look different from us, that have a different hair color than us. Like, we've done that.
43:32
And like you said, that legality and morality don't go hand-in-hand, because we've had to upgrade legality to achieve real morality.
43:41
It's been a constant upgrade, and we're still getting there.
43:43
So, that I really find fascinating, because what we're doing to animals right now is what we've done to humans throughout history.
43:53
And yes, we may have, at least externally, stopped doing it to humans or in organized ways, but we are currently still doing it in very organized institutional ways to animals.
44:05
Yeah, I mean, what what you said right at the beginning of that is really important.
44:07
You know, good people can engage in things that are bad. We all we all do.
44:11
You know, we all do because we do live in an inherently imperfect world.
44:15
By the by the mere fact that we have to do things to survive, we have to eat, we have to drink, there are going to be things that happen on this planet that are a negative for some people on this planet.
44:24
And by people I mean I can also mean animals, you know, the extraction of resources from nature, things like that.
44:30
So, we do live in an inherently imperfect world and unfortunately we're never going to I Well, I'd like to think we could, but realistically we're achieve a perfect utopia, you know.
44:36
But that doesn't mean the aspiration shouldn't be to get as close as we possibly can.
44:40
So, the important thing to recognize is yeah, it's not about saying this one's bad because they engage in bad things.
44:46
It's not It's not as easy as that.
44:47
The world isn't as black and white as we sometimes like to think it is.
44:50
It's actually a lot more nuanced and complicated and we all in our own ways can engage in in industries that are bad.
44:55
And what we do to animals is just objectively bad in in every sense of the word.
44:59
But good people can engage in that because of these cultural structures, these societal barriers.
45:03
And the third section of the book is all about that.
45:09
You know, the first section of the book is dealing with the moral aspect.
45:09
It's talking about what we do to animals.
45:12
It's talking about the history of what we do to animals.
45:13
It's talking about the ethical implications and it's trying to hopefully challenge us to think about our own morality.
45:20
The second section of the book then talks about the environment.
45:22
It talks about, you know, pandemics and infectious disease, something that is, you know, heavily linked to factory farming and that video you made about that.
45:29
That was brilliant, yeah. Thank you.
45:31
Yeah, it's it We don't really realize, but buying a chicken breast is one of the most dangerous things that we can do in terms of creating a new pandemic.
45:40
You know, it it same with bacon.
45:41
So, it's about looking at that and then also chronic health, so looking at heart disease, you know, certain forms of cancer, so looking at how it impacts us as individuals as well.
45:47
But then the third section was really important to me because I wanted to give people the reasons to be vegan.
45:54
But I also then wanted to explain why it is that these systems exist and to try and almost diffuse the idea of uh and feeling bad.
46:03
Just to say, "Look, this is all objectively wrong.
46:06
But you're not a bad person if you've engaged in this up into this point because there are all these boundaries, there are all these barriers, there are these psychological, social, and cultural things."
46:13
So, it's about helping people understand the mechanisms behind why we do what we do because that's almost as important as understanding what we do.
46:20
Why we do it because it's through understanding the why that we can challenge it and go, "Right, okay.
46:26
When I'm in a supermarket and I see that piece of steak, I can I think about what happens to the animal.
46:31
I know how that impacts the environment.
46:32
I know how that impacts my health.
46:34
But now I understand that psychological thing that makes me want to pick it up.
46:37
I know how I've got myself into this state where I, you know, I'm desiring this, where I'm normalizing this, and I can challenge my own preconceptions of why I do what I do as well.
46:46
So, trying to build that up for people, I think, is really important um because you're right.
46:50
And then to kind of go back to what you said right at the end, unfortunately, you know, human history has never been without its significant problems.
47:01
We've never reached a point, and we're certainly not there yet, where we can sit down and relax and go, "Oh, wow, we've we've overcome every adversity on this planet."
47:09
We're not We're not even close to that.
47:10
When we when we think about the history of our species, especially um you know, it in the past few hundred years, this work is only just beginning.
47:16
To to other humans as well, it's only just beginning.
47:19
But our intelligence can sometimes cloud our imperfections.
47:21
You know, we are so intelligent and we're capable of being so much.
47:26
And what the world could look like if we if we just came together and and and sat and empathized and thought deeply about these issues and and got through some of these kind of more kind of primal aspects that we haven't quite evolved out of yet, we could achieve such a wonderful thing.
47:42
And we could create such a great world.
47:43
But unfortunately, we're nowhere near that yet.
47:45
And what we do to animals is just becoming part of the conversation.
47:48
You know, I'm very grateful that it's now a part of the conversation, but it's just happening now.
47:53
And And we've been doing this for, you you thousands of years to them.
47:57
And when we look at the the justifications, when we look at the the view, when we when we look at the reaction that people have to those who say that they want to defend their bodies and rights of animals, we can see a lot of parallels, that just that automatic dismissal. No, they're different. They're not like us.
48:14
We don't need to do that.
48:14
Society's been built in this way. It's legal.
48:16
You know, we don't think about it.
48:18
All of these things that have perpetuated oppression to humans are now being seen as perpetuating oppression to animals.
48:24
And I'm grateful that we're starting to challenge it, but it's important that we don't ever think I'm get complacent in our morality, because we're always going to be able to improve a little bit more.
48:32
And what we do to animals is now part of that improvement.
48:34
It's part of that conversation to say, "Actually, we've achieved a lot, but we've got a long way to go."
48:39
And our relationship with those who are weaker, more vulnerable than us will define how far we can come in the future. Yeah. Well said, absolutely.
48:47
And one of the things you mentioned there that I think is the healthiest way, and as I said from the start of the interview, I've been doing in my own way is is that reflection when you're now at the supermarket or the grocery store, or wherever you are, and you're having to have that dialogue and that internal conversation with yourself, usually it gets trumped by things like oh, but veganism's really expensive. Mhm.
49:13
And and vegan food is really pricey.
49:13
And when we think about poorer countries or poorer families or poorer communities that need to shift, you can go to McDonald's and get a Happy Meal for a dollar or get like burger, fries, and Coke for like, I don't know, like a dollar 50 or whatever it is.
49:27
And then you start thinking about, "Oh, but a salad's like $15."
49:31
Or even if I'm if I buy it, I'm saying, "If I if I make it, then sure it's cheaper, but what have you looked at when you're thinking about people saying, "Well, veganism is expensive.
49:41
It's expensive to eat healthy and to eat to support animals."
49:43
Yeah, I mean, that it's important to state, and maybe I should have done this earlier, that there are nuances to everything. Yeah.
49:51
There are people in this world, obviously globally speaking, there are you know, there there are many people in this world that don't have the accessibility that we have, especially you and I, you know, recording this in in Los Angeles where it's very easy for us.
50:01
There obviously when we speak globally, there are people that don't have the accessibility, the affordability, the availability, and the option to make the choice that we can make.
50:10
And that's absolutely fine to recognize.
50:12
And then even in the culture and society where we are, we're in the US, obviously there's huge problems with economic disparity here as there are in most places around the world.
50:19
Um and also availability and and abundance.
50:21
And again, we recognize there are nuances to what people can achieve within their own life.
50:26
Now there was a study that was released, well it was it was just published I think yesterday, it's been reported on today, the day that we're filming that is.
50:32
And it was looking at the expense of of plant-based foods.
50:34
And ultimately, if you're going to a Whole Foods and you're buying like Beyond Burgers, Beyond Sausages, Impossible, that kind of thing, that's going to be more expensive.
50:42
But at the same time, if you stick to whole foods, um and those are the healthier foods, you know, the whole grains, the beans, the grains, Foods, you're talking about the whole foods.
50:50
Whole plant foods, exactly.
50:50
So, minimally processed plant foods, exactly, yeah.
50:54
So, you know, things like the whole grains, legumes, beans, chickpeas, seasonal vegetables and fruits, you can actually save money.
50:59
You know, normally when you go to supermarket, the most expensive things you can buy are a steak, cheese often, and like salmon fillets.
51:08
So, you can actually save money.
51:08
The study was saying you could save about 30% on your normal budget by switching to these whole plant foods, so which are the healthier ones as well, thankfully, which is a good thing.
51:15
But not everyone has that option, not everyone has the accessibility.
51:18
So, I think that that gives us, those who do, even more responsibility, even more of a an obligation to make those changes because the only way that we can challenge the the disparity in people's ability to access certain foods is by fundamentally challenging the food system itself.
51:37
If we keep buying the same foods and perpetuating the same systems with our purchases, we're not asking for change.
51:42
Now the food industry is propped up by things like subsidies from the government which drive down the prices of food.
51:50
I mean there's a reason you can go to McDonald's and get a chicken burger for a couple of dollars, but if you want a pint of blueberries it's going to set you back, you know, three or four or five dollars, right?
51:57
And that's because of the way that the government subsidizes subsidizes these foods.
52:02
If you look at the cost of raising animals, of producing feed for animals, of the antibiotics used for animals, you know, of of the the equipment, of the the land the land, everything.
52:12
And then you look at the environmental costs, the cleanup costs, the the health costs for health care for people who end up with health diseases a consequence, the price these products is absolutely massive.
52:22
It's just a hidden cost that we don't think about.
52:24
But we need to challenge this.
52:26
And the only way we can challenge that is by making choices and changes in our own individual life.
52:31
So for those of us who have the power, the capacity, the the privilege, let's use that word cuz that's what it is, the privilege to be able to make these choices, I think we're even more obliged to do so.
52:39
For those people in the future who would like to, but maybe don't have the capacity to now, who aren't given the luxury of being able to think critically because, you know, they've got a family to feed, they're working two jobs.
52:48
Um there's no supermarket close by, there's only a McDonald's or Taco Bell and they need to feed their family.
52:56
So what are you going to do as a parent?
52:58
Well, we know, and that's exactly what happens.
52:59
So if we want to help people in situations of of economic disparity, where the abundance isn't there, then we need to challenge the system.
53:06
The first way to do that is to change our behaviors, and then vote with our dollar, and then hopefully influence the supply and demand system, and then through that we can start to campaign to our governments and say, "Look, pardon the pun, but there's an appetite for change here, you know?"
53:19
And then we can try to create a more equal agricultural food system, but it starts right now at least with that individual making that choice, and then, you know, a mass collective of individuals coming together.
53:28
You know, one thing people often say to me is they say, "Ed, you know, maybe I agree with you, but me not buying that cheese in the supermarket isn't going to change the world." And and it's not.
53:36
But anything that ever has changed the world has changed the world because of a mass group of individuals.
53:43
Anything positive comes from the individual realizing and wanting to be an active part in that change.
53:49
And we all have the power to be an individual within that mass collective movement that creates positive different that creates positive difference.
53:56
And I want everyone to know who's listening right now that when you get the book This Is Vegan Propaganda, it talks about everything from the environmental impacts through to the meat paradox through to how to do this in a healthy unhealthy alternatives that exist in the world.
54:14
I I think what's fascinating is that this book dives so deeply into so much more than what we've discussed today. Yeah.
54:21
It's the environmental impacts.
54:23
It's the impact of what is a healthy and unhealthy way of doing this.
54:25
Uh you're asking the questions that are important to ask.
54:29
Can poorer countries shift in this direction?
54:32
And so the reason why I want everyone to go and grab the book This Is Vegan Propaganda is because I want us to just be educated and learn and be informed so that we can make informed decisions.
54:42
And I think that that's how what we saw happen in the world over the last few years as we all had a very uniquely similar experience as a species.
54:54
We started to recognize that when we all thought in a certain direction, we can make change, but the thought had to start with education. Yeah.
55:02
Like all the thing has to start with education.
55:04
And I think the challenge with veganism for a very very long time has been that there has been no education around it.
55:09
It's been a point of view. It's been a debate. It's been an argument.
55:13
It's been a uh forced potentially or or fear-based language and education.
55:19
Whereas now it's just like, well, this is just what's happening. Yeah.
55:23
And Ed, I just appreciate you so much for doing what you're doing.
55:25
Uh and I can't wait to see you continue to do it in more beautiful incredible ways.
55:29
I can't wait for the documentary uh when that happens.
55:32
But for everyone who's been listening right now, highly recommend go and follow Earthling Ed on Instagram uh to keep up-to-date and on YouTube as well.
55:40
And of course, go and grab the book, This Is Vegan Propaganda.
55:44
I could talk to Ed for hours, but I have to unfortunately stop.
55:45
Um but Ed, I'm going to ask you what we always end every interview with, which is called the final five. Yeah.
55:51
And you will, I know, put your spin on all of these.
55:53
So, the first question is, what is the best vegan or plant-based advice that you've ever received? Um research.
56:02
Research, research, research.
56:05
Because it's through research that we can become, yeah, informed consumers, like you say.
56:08
And uh Aristotle, the philosopher, once said, "The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet."
56:14
And I think that's so profound cuz it isn't comfortable to learn about these issues.
56:17
And you know, a lot of what we discussed can be challenging.
56:20
But the the prize at the end of it is consistency in our values um and the sense of being a part of something positive. So, yeah.
56:26
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet. That's a great answer.
56:30
All right, what is the worst vegan advice you've ever received?
56:34
Uh the worst vegan advice?
56:34
Oh, well, that's a good question.
56:35
Um the worst vegan advice.
56:39
Or given or received, which yeah.
56:41
I think it comes down to advocacy.
56:43
People have a range of different views about how to advocate for issues, like we've spoken about a couple of times.
56:47
And some people have views about how to do it that are different to my views.
56:51
And for me, I I practice what I preach in the sense of I try and come across in the way that I think others should.
56:55
And some people disagree with that.
56:56
And so, their advice to me has been contradicting what I think.
56:58
So, to me, that hasn't always been the best advice. That's good.
57:02
All right, if you could make one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?
57:05
Oh, well, I mean, the dogmatic side of me says be vegan, obviously.
57:09
And obviously, I mean, if there was one law in the world, yeah, that's what I'd want.
57:13
Um but I appreciate That sounds so dogmatic, doesn't it?
57:16
But I'd have to say that. I don't know. So, yeah. I was expecting it. So, yeah.
57:21
I mean, it would be surprising after all this It would be, wouldn't it?
57:23
if you came up with something totally random. That's true.
57:26
May- May- maybe to soften it, be nice to animals. Yeah. Yeah. Look after them. Yeah.
57:31
And redefine the word humane for ourselves when it comes to animals.
57:33
All right, fourth question.
57:35
What is the biggest lesson you've learned in the past 12 months?
57:37
Yeah, in the past 12 months, I think it again it comes down to the idea of good people can do bad things.
57:43
It's something I've been learning a lot, but I think that especially in the past couple of years, but even in the past 12 months, I've really enjoyed the company of humans.
57:51
That sounds strange maybe, but the pandemic has disconnected us a lot from one another.
57:55
And I used to do this, you know, have conversations and you know, meet people a lot before the pandemic as we did, right?
58:00
And in the past 12 months as I slowly started to build to integrate back into some of these these realms of conversation, it's made me realize how much I enjoy humans.
58:07
Even humans that are doing the thing that I'm trying to stop.
58:11
What What I like about having debates with people is it makes me realize how connected we all are, how we all think very similarly at times, you know, about these issues, how we're not that different from one another.
58:21
It's a matter if I go to a university here or a farm here or, you know, this country or wherever, we so we we think intrinsically very similar.
58:28
And And that's something I've learned especially as we come out, you know, we're still in the pandemic, but as we started to see the light at the end of the tunnel and I've been able to reintegrate back into the work that I used to do, just how much humans can be good, you know?
58:40
And I I think that's a really powerful thing for me to keep reminding myself.
58:43
Yeah, I mean, some of my best friends are not vegan, some of my closest friends in my family and and just so many people I love.
58:50
And I think that that's such a good point.
58:51
And you know, when we're sitting down to do this, I know this comes from both of our hearts.
58:56
Like I'm doing this just out of a compassion and education.
58:59
Like there's no part of me that judges anyone for doing something that I just did a few years ago.
59:04
And and that lack of judgment is what allows all of us to grow.
59:08
And by the way, I also think it's important to state and I haven't felt this from a moment of meeting you.
59:12
I mean, when I when I when I've seen your videos, I'm like, "Wow, Ed is Ed is tough in a good way."
59:17
And I met you today, you're sweetest human ever.
59:18
I'm like, "Wow, this guy's like I was like, why he's so nice."
59:22
Not that I expected you to be not nice, but you like like, like, "Wow, Ed is just so personal and just so um I don't know what it is.
59:29
You You have a real sweetness and softness and kindness about you in person uh that people wouldn't get to see always through a debate or a screen.
59:38
And and I really feel that the idea that this is all coming from a place of just compassion, love, kindness, and non-judgment.
59:45
And also, there's we shouldn't feel have an ego.
59:51
This is how we were trained as monks that just because you care for animals, that's actually the most basic human quality.
59:57
Like, you can't have an ego about that either.
59:59
You can't think you're better because you're vegan because the whole point is that you should be honoring these animals anyway.
1:00:06
And so, I think there's there's both ends of the coin of the ego in how we present veganism to others, but also the ego we feel internally because we think we're better than others.
1:00:15
And I think both of those have to be removed. Yeah, definitely.
1:00:19
Fifth fifth and final question is what is anything that I haven't asked you, but you really want to say because you feel that it's on your heart and on your mind and and needs to be shared? I think accountability.
1:00:32
Um it's really important to me that I come across in a way that um seems empathetic to people and and a lot of the work that I do is trying to rationalize why people do what they do so that I you know, so it's easy to empathize with them, you know.
1:00:44
You can understand the processes of why people do what they do, but accountability is also really important.
1:00:50
Um and I was put in a situation for my partner where I was forced to hold myself accountable to the decisions that I was making.
1:00:56
And so, whilst it's really important that we, you know, a very reflective, we also have to be accountable for our decisions, you know.
1:01:03
And And again, this is this relates directly to your work as well about, you know, it's all well and good understanding what we should do, but if we want to see those positive benefits in our own life and we want to, you know, hit the targets that we want and improve ourselves in the way that we want to improve ourselves, we have to be accountable to ourselves.
1:01:17
And when we view veganism from the position of the individual who's who's suffering.
1:01:22
who's who's suffering. When we think about the animal and we view veganism obviously there's so many benefits to ourselves and where as in an individual making that change, but when we view veganism from the perspective of the
1:01:33
person who suffers as a consequence of the decision that we make when it comes to buying animal products, that's where that accountability has to come in to say, "I understand why I should do it, you know, I'm going to research how to do it sustainably and healthily." And then the final piece of
1:01:44
And then the final piece of the puzzle is to be accountable to ourselves, to our own morals, but accountable to them.
1:01:49
They can't talk to us, they can't communicate, you know, a chicken can't say, "Please don't do this."
1:01:55
But if they could, they would.
1:01:55
They would, you know, and they they vocalize it in ways that we recognize, you know, through the the cries and the screams and the the actions and the body movements, but we don't see it.
1:02:03
So, it's hard to be accountable to something that we don't see, that's out of sight and out of mind.
1:02:08
So, connect with it, you know, think deeply about these issues and then, yeah, accountability on our behalf to say, "I need to push myself in ways that might seem a little bit inconvenient, that might not be that comfortable, like, you know, that might be a little bit, you know, daunting at the beginning, but the benefit of doing that isn't just the benefit to ourselves, it's to them and they don't have a choice.
1:02:27
We have the choice, the power to dictate what they have to go through or ultimately what they don't have to go through." Yeah.
1:02:34
You know what the most beautiful thing about this interview's been?
1:02:35
That we've been talking about something that can be very divisive, it can be quite difficult, but all I'm feeling is a sense of like more compassion in my heart.
1:02:44
Like, overall, like, I'm walking away from this interview going, "I just need to be more compassionate with everyone."
1:02:48
Like, you know, with animals, of course, but the way you've been sharing this with me, at least, I just want people to know who are listening that sitting across from the table from Ed, all I'm feeling is the aura and energy of compassion, love, kindness, and empathy is what I'm feeling from your heart and voice.
1:03:05
And so, anyone who's not been in the room with me and just hearing a conversation without the emotion that you feel when you're with someone, I just want everyone who's listening or watching to know that.
1:03:15
And so, I'm walking away wanting to be more of all of that in my life as a whole. Definitely.
1:03:19
And if that's all you take away from this episode, then I hope that that's the beginning of uh your journey to loving all animals and life. So, thank you, Ed. Thank you, Jay.
1:03:30
Thank you so much for joining us.
1:03:31
Everyone, I want to make sure that you tag me and Ed on Instagram, on Twitter, on whatever platform you're using so that we can see what you're taking away.
1:03:39
Maybe you're going to try going vegan.
1:03:41
Maybe you're going to try change one day in your life.
1:03:44
Whatever you're going to do from this podcast, I want you to let me and Ed know because we want to see how these words, how what Ed has shared, of course his book This Is Vegan Propaganda, for those of you that are going to go and grab a copy, you're going to have all the education and insight at your fingertips. Uh please do tag us.
1:04:00
I love seeing what resonates and connects with you.
1:04:02
This has been a very special episode in that we've been sharing something that I truly believe could be life-changing, is out there, is available, is accessible, and I hope that some of you are going to give it a go.
1:04:14
So, thank you for joining in. Uh big thank you to Ed.
1:04:17
Go and follow Earthling Ed on Instagram and YouTube and all social media platforms.
1:04:21
Uh wherever Ed is, uh and go and grab a copy of the book This Is Vegan Propaganda.
1:04:25
So, Ed, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
1:04:29
If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here.
1:04:35
I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book Think Like a Monk from thinklikemonkbook. com.
1:04:44
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