sacks i am gonna give you a thousand dollars each to the charity of your choice for every correct answer [ __ ] it ten thousand but you have to answer you have to answer in real time and you can't [ __ ] around okay no stalling this is this is to any charity chooses included tucker carlson 2024 okay you have to give the answers right away you cannot [ __ ] think
about this here we go three two one first middle and last name of your children and their birthdays go um stopping for time already no you're already stuck okay go dude oh you can beat these out nick go ahead go so is uh january no year what's the oh uh 2008 [Music] uh is uh october um uh 2010 and then little guy little man first name little yeah you're trying to
stop me with the little guy little man uh he was born october of uh 2016. all right that was a struggle i got it i got it there he got that that's all that matters is he got there it is so you're gonna give that you're gonna give ten grand yeah ten grand each two all right so it's 30 grand to tucker carlson for president desantis 2024 i said charity [ __ ] [Music]
hey everybody hey everybody welcome to your favorite podcast the all podcast where we talk about the economy technology politics and well basically anything that's in the news with us today again the queen of quinoa himself david friedberg how are you doing david i'm hanging in there today all right people are looking for the dog where's the dog monty he's sitting here on the floor monty
come here come on come here come on monty all right and from a random palace somewhere in the world the dictator himself chamoth polly hoppity how you doing see uh i'm doing great you know i i got another dog uh while you were in italy uh i went to um the breeder that i got aki from and uh she had a three-year-old that was not really you know ever gonna
become a breeding dog or whatever so i adopted the three-year-old he has a parasite so he's been pooing everywhere everywhere that's great information for the call over all over the castle all over the castle fantastic liquid poop by the way uh but we finally diagnosed it today and he's going to the to the vet um to get some liquids and to get the parasite expunged from his body
uh okay thank you for that information and i don't know nobody cares you no nobody cares how you were doing i thought you were just going to say great i didn't know we were going to go straight to diarrhea we got a new dog too you did and it's also it's been kind of a disaster the kids were like dad we found this like i think you know golden that is really calm
you know like she's just super low energy and calms like perfect for us i'm like i don't know i think that's just like the puppy is kind of asleep you know like it's gonna wake up they're like no no no this is like a special dog it's like really well behaved whatever so anyway we get it sure enough like a week later the puppy wakes up and she's eating everything in the house destroying everything
it spit yeah so now we're wait is that dog number two or three for you it's dog two with the dog one was a rescue dog who's great so dog number two is now getting trained all right david sax is with us of course the rain man himself and in related dog stories i put all the girls to bed and then i hear screaming i get up i run outside literally the new bulldog who's nine
months old maximus went on you know one of his running fits one of my daughters falls out of bed gets like a bruise on her like lower back and she's wailing the other daughter feels terrible about it and then the dog decides that he is going to projectile vomit everywhere all at the same time you guys have had these moments where like it's just completely utter chaos
it's chaos it's just chaos it's cat dogs plus kids equals chaos uh chaos so but get would any of us have it any other way i love the combo of dogs and kids it's just the best it's pretty gross dogs are amazing especially when you bring in a new dog or a puppy into the house it's chaos but it's a really beautiful chaos well you know what i think also is like think about how overrated everything in
life is people like oh my god this place with the pasta in italy it's the greatest life-changing thing and all this movie was incredible it's the best movie ever made and it's never the best movie ever made or the best pasta ever it's great or whatever but i think kids and dogs are underrated universally have as many kids as you can possibly biologically have and can economically
afford as much one opinion and uh the more dogs the better i love dogs yeah all right uh i think we should start with the cova cases because this is impacting everything from the economy to people's decisions touching on people's freedoms and it's hard to know where to start here but i think facts are always a good place to start here in the united states
we had gotten covert cases you know to that 12 000 a day average it was pretty amazing and it looked like it was gonna go straight down smooth sailing um and we had had deaths down at around uh i saw some seven day averages where we were at 150 200. now the weekends are kind of weird um in terms of reporting but the seven day average today is at 248 in other words it's been flat
for a month when you do this on this is according to the new york times statistics and google you can search for google and you'll find these they have some great data that they'll just put right in the search result however cases have gone from this 12 15 k a day average soaring in just 30 days to 60 2000 a day and a 7 day average of 40 000 so we're basically tripled the number of
cases cases trail traditionally debts by something in the neighborhood of 10 days uh i think i'm correct friedberg so what do you think is actually going to happen here we're going to we're going to get up to 10 100 000 200 000 cases a day and maybe double the number of deaths from the people who are not vaccinated yeah you know the current logic on this is that there will be
um because of the number of people that are generally infected and are spreading what is now an even more infectious variant of covid the people that are not vaccinated are um starting to get it at a higher rate and that's where the deaths are starting to come from so um yeah we will see deaths climb and i think like we talked about last time we're starting to see even gavin
did an interview yesterday in california talking about how you know there it's on the table that we may go back to certain restrictions uh behavioral restrictions mass mandates etc so there's going to be a set of reactions and i think as we talked about last time we saw the market start to react to the potential of that on monday and then very interestingly kind of
reverse course on tuesday and everything came back when everyone was freaked out on monday after they saw the weekend's data which showed that cases are climbing like crazy in the u.s but i think the conventional wisdom is not that many people are going to die therefore we're not going to see you know um uh political leaders uh force restrictions that are kind of uh going to damage the economy
and we're going to start to walk what i think israel is calling the golden line which is balancing the economy with the the health of the citizenry so um so you know we'll we'll see uh it's going to come down to policy but i think from a death perspective there will absolutely be a rise in depths now as unvaccinated people are the gonna be the bulk of those deaths and
and this thing is spreading again amongst people that haven't been vaccinated well and then sacks this becomes now a great raw shock test of what do you see uh in this data and in this moment because it's a pandemic as many people are saying now i think this is becoming the meme or the catchphrase it's a pandemic of the unvaccinated so people have chosen to opt in to this pandemic and then a
group of us have chosen to not be part of it you were part of it even as a vaccinated person but you're feeling great you're back to a hundred percent so what do you think should happen in terms of closings or shutdowns or mass mandates what's your take on the pandemic of the unvaccinated well i think we need to differentiate between public policy and private
behavior so you know after last week's episode where i said you know delta variants real there's going to be huge spike in cases um unfortunately i thought we had this thing whipped you know a few weeks ago now i think the data is showing something different you know everyone there's a lot of commenters saying saks you've turned you've been blue pilled
no it's you know i i think there's a difference between acknowledging what's going on and then having the the policy conversation around it um i think that the difference now from last year i mean there's a couple of things one is that we do have vaccines so i think for most people getting vaccinated will take the worst risks off the table the other is we know so much more about
what works and what doesn't work and so lockdowns don't work if you know if they ever did they they they they we now know looking at from what different states did last year that they don't make a difference there's no reason to go back to that policy but also i mean i would even say on mass it should be wait do we know that i mean is that i think so are we sure of that
yeah i think so because um the thing that the government planners never take into account is that private citizens are going to adjust their behavior in both directions so in florida they didn't have mandates but people who are at risk took you know extreme precautions they would either lock themselves down or be very fastidious about wearing a high quality mask by contrast
in california we had the most severe lockdowns but they were never really feasible so there's 10 pages of exceptions people didn't really abide by them and then on top of it you know you have all these mass mandates but if somebody wears like a sock loosely affixed to their face does that really protect them you know so you know people if they're if they're
not interested in complying with these mandates they do it in a half-hearted way i'm not convinced that the mandates work in the first place um so the smart thing to do here is just to have recommendations and let private citizens decide what their response is going to be we know now so much more about the risks that we all face uh than we did a year ago um and so just let private citizens
decide i mean i'd even say on va on vaccines i mean look i'm pro-vax i don't really understand where the anti-vaxx people are coming from but i'm kind of done wasting my breath trying to convince people to get vaccinated you know on this show who don't want to get vaccinated you know if they don't want to send those doses to the developing world where they're desperate for them let me ask you trump
do you do you agree with sax's position that listens citizens are just going to have to make their own decision here leave everything open and let's not have the economy collapse again and people people are smart enough to make their own decision and is this framing of this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated the correct framing wow i'm really of two minds there's
there's the part of me that says that um you have to give people the right to make their own decision the problem is that in this specific case there's so much transmissibility and um as a result of that how this thing can mutate that i think that public health has to take a priority over any individual individual's rights in in this very specific narrow narrow case
because the delta variant is so transmission transmissible people are going to have to lose some freedoms is one of those showing a vaccine card when you go to an arena you wouldn't need that if everybody was vaccinated or you had to go through a lot of hoops to be unvaccinated as an example i mean and and the reason is because the longer you allow this thing to float around in the petri
dish of the unvaccinated you're increasing everybody's risk and this is where i think individual freedoms as long as there's a trample on collective freedom then i think live and let live but i think on this specific issue uh i think that it's it's it's unconscionable to be in a situation where um we are fighting basically a time function where at a certain amount of time you're
going to have a variant that that is you know basically will overcome all the vaccines we have will uh kill enormous numbers of people including the vaccinated will literally shut the economy down and that's a probabilistic event now and i don't like the fact that i'm susceptible to that because of a bunch of people who frankly aren't doing it for medical or religious
reasons they're just watching fox news and just spouting off i agree that we're at risk there but we're also at risk from accident vaccinated people in the rest of the world so delta variant came from india the lambda variant i think the wrong came from peru i mean the fact that matter is unvaccinated people everywhere are a potential petri dish for the virus
so i'd rather i mean this is why we need to send those unused doses that by the way are at risk of expiring we now i mean there was a tweet about this recently there's huge stockpiles of vaccine in the u.s that are going to waste right now we should ship those anywhere in the world that people are ready to get vaccinated specifically to mexico and canada and canada's
i think this uh month going to even though we got off to a massive head start going to uh eclipse us in terms of the percentage of accident let me ask it more pointedly should a t should teachers be public school teachers be forced to be vaccinated should you be forced to have a vaccine card to get on public transportation airplanes or you know take buses you know long-haul buses
uh long-haul trains uh and then third should you be forced to show a vaccine card to get on to go to sporting events or concerts let's go through those three so your personal freedom ends you're going to be forced if you want to go to group behaviors if you want to participate in a public construct if you want to consume a public resource or if you want to
provide a publicly funded good then it's the broader public's rights that um are superior to your individual rights otherwise work at a charter school where it's not required watch the [ __ ] concert from home or drive your car use a bicycle or take an uber the end sounds what do you think and then freeburg so i i understand that argument i would differentiate between public and private
requirements because i i don't like the idea of giving government the power to forcibly stick a needle in your arm um so what you might said you could stay home or you could take your bicycle well sure so is that reasonable that you don't get to go to a warriors game because you're unvaccinated yeah i think you know the warrior stadium is is privately owned the team is private
so i think that i think that private companies should be able to set up their own rules for the benefit of their employees and what about airlines because that is you know a gay it's there's a limited number of them yeah i think so airlines should be able to force it now what about school teachers they can't force it but they can set the requirements for you to
board their planes you know okay now what about public schools should if let's do teachers and students should teachers be forced to get a vaccine if they want to come in because you said if they don't come to work in the fall on a couple episodes back you're fired well why wouldn't they want to get a vaccine the whole debate with the teachers unions was that they wanted to
be at the front of the line for vaccines which isn't an issue anymore because we have so many so i don't think that's a serious issue now requiring the kids to get vaccinated is um that that would be the real policy question and um well let's tackle both should teachers be forced to get the vaccine yes or no you just kind of brushed over yeah you force it for no i mean i think
it's important to just to just you know pinpoint this like forcing teachers to get vaccinated in order to you know work at the school i just want to highlight the precedent it sets right which is um you know you just said you don't want the government to tell people that they have to go get a shot in their arm if someone has a personal choice that they don't want to get that shot
does that mean then that they you know should lose their job as a public servant well no i mean no i'm i'm saying that i i look i i i said it's not a big deal but like if there's one or two teachers that say you know what it is a big deal to me i have a different i have a set of reasons why i don't want to get shot i i think those teachers that's an assumption of risk i mean if they've
decided they're going to assume the risk then you know don't come crying to us when they get sick well the argument is that was your choice the vector of exposure right that they could have petri dishes they could be the vector that gets kids sick in all of these situations there's an always a very um obvious and justifiable exemption for religious and medical reasons
to not be vaccinated not just for this but for anything else so i struggle to understand why all of a sudden people who don't have a [ __ ] clue about science are all of a sudden these armchair scientists who can judge whether or not a vaccine is appropriate for them where they probably already gave vaccines of all other kinds to their kids and themselves they probably take all other kinds of
advice from doctors but on this one specific issue they narrowly say you know what i'm an expert enough because i'm watching this television show i've made a decision that to me makes no sense uh yeah look i i actually agree with you i'm in the camp of that everybody barring some you know um highly specific medical condition that renders you ineligible should be
getting vaccinated so i agree with you about what the right answer is but i do think that when it comes to government it's it's a more complicated question about how much power you give to government to force people to engage in you know behavior they don't want to engage in can you i think that's a real question private organizations are different we all agree on private
organizations but we we do have to make some decisions on public transportation and we do have to make decisions about teachers and we're going to have to make decisions on students so um could you bench the teachers uh who or otherwise penalize them who are not vaccinated you know there are sometimes where you know a cop or a teacher is put in a you know not in the classroom not on the beat for
whatever reasons uh sometimes disciplinary but for other reasons could you just say listen if you're not gonna get vaccinated you're going to not be in the classroom you're not gonna you'll be a remote teacher and we're just gonna create two classes here i don't i don't think i don't i don't think there are many teachers who don't want to get vaccinated but
but i um look i think the virus is everywhere now it's just endemic and so to single out like one particular group and saying you're going to lose your opinion so you're saying teachers should not be forced i'm saying that i mean if they work in a private school the private school could definitely require it public only now we all agree on private you're saying i think it's
i think it's a really complicated question because i think there are clear public health benefits to everyone getting vaccinated but i also don't really like empowering government to force you because look it's like everything else the government may be right in this particular case but what else is it going to do with that power and you know i don't like giving government
that power so look it's a complicated question i don't you know it's not um i would i'd probably err on the side of not letting government force people to do it but but look i i think it's a close call i do think it's a close call chamoth forced a teacher cfa accident or not yes and the reason is because these kids are already being left behind even when school is functioning normally
and you can see it in the test scores you can see it in our readiness you can see it in our ability to actually do the jobs that are required we are not doing what we need to do as it is in the absence of a pandemic and now you introduce a reason for folks to basically check out and not appear i what do you guys guess how how many years were lost in these 15
months when kids were at home i would say not 15 months no it's more two years two and a half years three years depending on what grade they are what did did your kids miss graduation did they miss senior prom did they miss their sats i mean what did they miss in terms of yeah i mean chamoth has a good point which is that if that that when government is the employer
requiring it on their employees because it leads to better outcomes for that institution that is a little different than government just mandating that you jason calcano's private citizen have to go get a shot in your arm right i mean so there is a slight difference there like military for instance right the military probably wants to vaccinate everybody so that if they
need to be ready for a combat situation they're not like you know incapacitated by an outbreak of covet right so i can i i think there you know we're getting into shades of gray here from a public policy perspective you know i i don't want uh teachers missing school because you know for weeks at a time because they didn't do the obvious thing getting the code vaccine
so look i i think there are some really good poly policy arguments there but i think again the the one place where i'd say government is clearly overstepping is if they just said listen you private citizen not an employee of the government has to go get vaccinated um as much as i would like everyone to to to get vaccinated i don't want to give government that kind of power
president biden could legally require military members to get vaccinated but so far he has declined to do so july 9th new york times friedberg where do you stand on this chamat says he's all in your teacher you get vaccinated at the end saks is kind of close but is a little concerned what do you say freeburg i mean another way to frame it is that there's a new qualification
for a job like you know there's qualification to be in the military you have to have certain physical capabilities jason i don't know if you would qualify um i don't think i would i don't think i can do like for for totally different reasons your inability to fight or throw a punch would be no maybe j cal could eat the enemy trust me i would be great in the
military i'm going to be here he'd be like clemenza he'd be cooking the meatballs or something private joker private a donut there's the i think the reason their sensitivity to it is because there are existing teachers in jobs and then you're telling them that in order to keep your job you have to go get a vaccine now if we were to have zero teachers today and we were starting a public school
system from scratch and you said here's one of the qualifying criteria to be a school teacher you have to have an education degree you have to have maybe a master's degree in education you have to have appropriate qualifications and training and certification oh and by the way you also have to have a vaccine if that becomes a criteria i think people find it less offensive
it's the fact that we are now saying that there are people that are being told that you have to go get a shot in order to keep your job um and that's the complicating thing that i think people are trying to wade through i don't think i don't think that if you were to say like look it's obvious that the qualifying criteria to be in the military is you have to be able to run
and do push-ups or whatever the the criteria might be but if you impose that on people that were already in the military and then you're going to kick a bunch of them out people would be up in arms about it if you had a bmi requirement yeah and that's the concern i think that arises with you know imposing these kind of um you know personal body uh criteria upon
you know specific jobs when people are already employed in that job um and it's there's there's absolutely no answer right like if you're gonna do it you're gonna have incredible backlash and trouble and pain um and if you were to and we're not in a circumstance where we can build these organizations and these institutions from scratch look there's a lot of social issues where
you know particularly on the liberal side people do not want the government uh prohibiting them from getting certain medical procedures right well um you know i'd say it's even more invasive you're talking about people transitioning or you know or the issue of abortion you know very hot button social issues where people are saying the government should not have the right to legislate
what happens with what's happening what happens with my body right well force it you know giving government the power to forcibly inject you with something is you know that is that is invasive and um so i do think there are like rights implications to that but i want to be very clear if you want the services that are offered to you by the collective whole if you want to consume and be a net
drag on the resources that we share then you need to sign up for the compact that we all sign up for that's that's my over arching argument the the thing with abortion where i'm on the other side of the issue just to be very clear is like it is a woman's body i don't think i have any right to dictate what she does i don't understand what she goes through i don't understand
what situation she's in i don't think i have the judgment to do that it should and it doesn't have an impact on the collective and her decision to carry or not carry a baby doesn't theoretically come with a probabilistic chance that i may die it does not right but when you choose to not get vaccinated to a highly transmissible respiratory disease that could kill me
or mutate yeah i'm not saying that i have a say but i do think i should have a say if you're then all of a sudden going to consume the same resources that i consume where i've signed up to that compact for public health based on all this here's where i come to what if we gave teachers an off-ramp listen if you um you you need to be vaccinated to be in the classroom
if not you're going to get a one-year buyout or whatever one month or two months for every year of service so if you've been with us for 20 years you're gonna get 20 months of pay and or you could say if the virus is spreading at under this rate in other words you know we we've got under one percent of the population infected or whatever the the criteria is then you can come to
work in the classroom but if this thing is spreading you're out and that's it and there's an off-ramp here to to david's point unless there's an arrow like look i i do think you can be a conscientious objector for legitimate reasons again like we we have these very specific definitions for religious or for health specific reasons that you ch that you don't get vaccinated
i think those should be respected it's not that cohort of people we're talking about it's everybody else that right now wants to not think for themselves and as a result put everybody else and themselves in danger yeah i i think the most compelling part of your argument shamath is that where is the health externality right that that that each person's decision
does have an impact on whether they could be transmitting you know multiplicative contagious particles and this is why i was in favor of a mass mandate at the beginning of the pandemic is it's not just an individual decision your your choice actually does affect whether other people get sick so you know this is why i i do think it also wasn't very expensive correct sacks
i mean was your other point yes exactly potentially high benefit for very low cost i think we're but but but the thing that maybe i didn't necessarily take into consideration is you know people complied in such a half-hearted way i mean i do think the mass makes a difference if it's an n95 quality mask that you put on correctly right right but when people just strap a
sock to their face it's loosely fitting and they don't give a [ __ ] i mean does that really make a difference i mean i'm very skeptical let me ask you a question sax and then we'll go to freeburg and then we'll flip to the next topic if we were on our third pandemic or let's god forbid a second pandemic starts a totally different one you know ebola type or something and
we're on the fifth variant and people are dying at a higher rate does your calculus change tax because sure because because the the uh the downsides that the cost of you know not not imposing those more restrictive regulations goes up considerably i mean definitely my thinking today is highly influenced by the fact that that if you're vaccinated you're call it 95 likely to be taking the most
deadly or serious risks off the table and so the people who are choosing not to get vaccinated are essentially assuming the risk you know it's like it's like smoking in a way where when i made the movie thing for smoking christopher buckley told me you know he's the author of the book and he said look there's something uniquely american about defending people's right
to do something that's manifestly harmful right the main character and thank you for smoking as a spokesman for big tobacco and he's engaging in political spin but his argument is look people have the right to engage in this behavior even if it is known to be harmful to them maybe america is the only place in the world where people buy into arguments like that but i do um i
you know look that is that is um that's freedom is letting people do stupid things you know and um and so we have to weigh the benefits of of freedom against the against the costs and by the way sorry can i just say something um smoking is a perfect example because as you know there is now um a non-trivial amount of law around the liability related to
individuals that enabled um secondhand smoke both the smoker but also other things condo boards other places where all of a sudden you didn't choose to [ __ ] have you know tara and nicotine my dad worked in bars where people it was a cloud of smoke for 30 years 30 years right they told him he was essentially a smoker it's not it's not just the detrimental activity at the time
remember we've socialized the cost of treatment for people uh through public health systems and because of that it's not just an individual's choice if there is a socialized cost for everyone that's now got to pay the price but the government is so omnipresent all of our lives there's always going to be a social cost to any bad choice people make and to toma's point i mean everybody
uses government services to some degree so that alone can't be the reason i i do agree that the no no but david what about people speeding on highways at 125 miles an hour like it's illegal that's illegal but but i think i think your mother is right that the smoking example is a good one because we do regulate secondhand smoke because there's an externality there's a health
externality to everybody else if you smoke in a public place and so we restrict that but we don't make smoking illegal we don't stop you from doing it in your own homes or in private places and the argument is listen if you want to do something that's harmful primarily to you that's your choice as an american you know and i know people a lot of
people don't like that actually this is a this i posted a tweet that i got just because an opinion is wrong doesn't mean it should be censored just because the behavior is harmful doesn't mean it should be prohibited just because something is beneficial doesn't mean it should be required right it's a completely reasonable tweet yeah i thought it was a pretty inoffensive anodyne tweet
just reminding people that just because again something is is positive doesn't mean you force people to do it and just because some behavior is harmful you don't you don't ban it i think smoking is a great example of that right we let people engage in behavior that's harmful to them because freedom is a value in and of itself um for this i was attacked as a selfish [ __ ]
by um by this other pod and i i really like swisher and professor cold takes professor what cold takes that literally made um an index of all of professor g's you know takes that macy's would be incredible and amazon will lose its money and yada yada he's kind of obsessed with youtube chamath prof g yeah who just got his show canceled on bloomberg but they were a little kara swisher was
called sacks an [ __ ] well triggered it was bizarre that they would get so triggered by this inoffensive tweet but i think what you see here is an example of the way that the woke mind thinks which is well hold on i don't think kara's woke are you kidding me she's like that she's like the madame du farger the woke revolution she's always was this character in the french
revolution who admit the names of the next person to be guillotined and uh she was you know one of the the the leaders of the sans q laws no look cara is constantly ginning up the mob to try and you know guillotine some no non-woke person yeah i don't think that that's true that's true i think she's kind of moderate you're trying to you're trying to curry favor with her so you don't know we're not
there no no she i mean she did get it right you are an [ __ ] i mean you are an [ __ ] she got that she got that she's not old and failing well you are kind of old you look dope you look cool she's effectively saying we're all [ __ ] because i think all of us have talked about this you're [ __ ] i'm an [ __ ] yeah i love it own it [ __ ] it i'm not what's your other choice being a whiner
on the sidelines what we've said on this show is that we have a moral imperative to get to get back to normal do we not that is what we've said and for that she's basically saying that that is a let the meat covered position right that we are basically we don't care if people get sick and die because of covet that's not true you know we just have about liverpool
here i think we should make people get vaccinated yeah and you're pretty close to getting people vaccinated i asked you saks if there were three more variants and this was an acute situation you said you would force oh look if we had if we had a variant of covid that was as deadly as ebola and as transmissible as delta variant it 100 percent changes the game there's
no question about willing to change the government's ability to put a shotgun based on it's a benefit it's a yes it's a benefit cost analysis and that's reasonable but look i give freedom a lot of weight and part of my calculation is the fact that i can get vaccinated to take to most likely take the most serious risks off the table so while i i am impacted to some degree by other
people's choices i'm much less impacted now that we have functional thinking about this i still have a problem with the way you're thinking about this because you're using you're viewing this as a linear problem this thing is transmutating and so i know but there are still billions of people all over the world who are unvaccinated and we'd be better off
focusing on getting them a marshall plan for the vaccines all these unused doses we're wasting our breath in the united states trying to get these vaccine hesitant or anti-vax people to get vaccinated did you guys see that um uh emmanuel macron of france uh you know basically tightened all these restrictions around access to public places going into bars and cafes they basically put all these
rules in place that you have to be vaccinated and you did it in a public address on tv 22 million people watched it and then after he did this suddenly the vaccination signups went up to like 20 000 a minute they got four million people sign up to get vaccinated i mean in france what's the point of being alive and then let me throw a wet blanket on uh the framing of this on whether all of
this talk about forcing vaccinations even makes sense or is possible i have been to like three events over the last month or two where i was required to be vaccinated and i literally just took a photo of this index card that i got from this person and sent it to them which i could go make at kinko's or i could print at home it's like there's i don't my point is i
don't think that there's not a great digital system today to enable the level of restriction that we're actually talking about how are you actually going to know that people going to the warriors game are actually vaccinated how are you actually going to know they did it at madison's work and they they literally had you pull out your id and they matched your name to your vax
card and i think printing out a vax card and faking it if it could be a fine could be a ten thousand dollar fine and so you would do it like anything else you could you could make a bogus driver's license it's not digital right there's no there's no kind of centralized system where we know who's actually been vaccinated who's not so so much of this is just this like analog paper trail
thing of like here's this piece of paper that says i'm vaccinated i think that you're you're never going to really close the hole on this thing now you certainly will see the sort of psychological behavior that they saw in france which is you just announce the restrictions you announce these rules everyone signs up or some number of people will sign up but i you know i'm not sure this
actually ends up becoming this truly enforceable mechanism of behavior in society uh over the next uh you know short while i mean maybe over time we digitize all this stuff but we'll see yeah i mean the best the best case scenario is that because delta is so transmissible we get to hurt immunity because all the people who didn't get vaccinated just get it and
get the natural antibodies and hopefully this thing crosses that because we have 60 of adults in the united states have had one shot or more uh which is why debts probably aren't going up because that's like 75 percent in people over 60 i think so freeburg in your estimation as our science guy with what we have like 30 million people who've been infected
uh that we know of you got to triple that number right because there's people who we don't know and then you have 65 you have 60 percent so we got to be in the range of 70 have been exposed or been vaccinated so when does it kick in or are we experiencing you know um herd immunity right now with these low debts um we talked about this before but there are um you know there's a spectrum of
infection right you're you're you you can have viral replication happening in your body and then your body clears out the virus before you even know because you've got enough antibodies to that particular strain of a variant of a virus before your body even you know you start to feel symptoms and there are cases where the virus kind of replicates in an uncontrolled way for a
period of time and you have incredibly bad symptoms and you have inflammation all the stuff that follows and so you know in terms of how you measure this stuff it's really difficult to say that you're going to stop all viral replication by getting a certain number of people to be to have been exposed as we've seen even when you have a broad and diverse antibody
pool in your body because you've been exposed to a vaccine we are still seeing that some of these variants can break through for some period of time because there's not enough of the antibodies that can actually bind to that specific variant and so the rate of transmission slows the rate of severe infection goes way down and so on so it's not as binary as hey we hit herd
immunity and now we're done it seems this is you know as we talked about earlier and as i think everyone is coming to terms with this is going to be an endemic virus and that means that it's going to be circulating in the population in a modest way causing sometimes severe sometimes you know modest outbreaks for likely a very long time no matter how many people get it no matter how
many people get vaccinated because you have different levels should we ignore it at what level should we just say listen that is the steady state how many cases a day how many debts a day do you think is the steady state that we should just say we just go to work and ignore it i am a brutal cold-hearted libertarian on this point and i have been since we first talked about this last year
i've always been of the mind that we need to balance the um the the follow-on life effect from the economic fallout associated with making certain behavioral changes and restrictions relative to the actual loss of life right so you can never go i i i really think this point about zeroism and this term about zeroism is an important one you can never get to zero cases what is
the acceptable number of cases and what is the cost to keep that case load down the balance of those two is a very difficult leadership decision put a number on it but it's about saving lives right so like there are a certain number of people whose lives are going to be ruined who are some of them will commit suicide some of them won't be able to earn an
income again their businesses are going to get shut down what is the economic cost of that versus the economic cost of the loss of life versus what i'm saying is what is the number we had an average of 250 deaths 250 000 case known cases a day at the peak we had a peak deaths of 4 100 a day we are now at 200 people dying a day and you know 30 000 cases is there a number at which you say let's
just focus on getting back to work and is that number where we are now i'm trying to get it yeah again i wouldn't simplify it to those data points what i would do again i would look at you know at what age are people dying how many life years are we losing and how can we address the acute populations that are at risk and the acute populations that are that are potentially
going to be exposed manage those populations differently than you manage the broader population that has a lower likelihood of risk of death and a lower likelihood of fatality and the restrictions that you then impose to you know start to manage uh the risk and the exposure to different populations gets weighed against the saving of life and the loss of life in both circumstances
so it's it's not easy right it's it's and everyone wants to sum this whole thing up to like how many deaths a day is appropriate that's not the right answer right because well you're saying how many that part of it is so obvious right that and we should have known this last summer the obvious part being that what you want to do is focus your prevention on the part of the population
that's the most at risk and what do we do with lockdowns we literally locked down the entire population every business it was completely insane we should have focused it on protecting the most at-risk populations isolating the sick or the people at greatest risk not everybody it was just insane and um i mean i can't believe we're still having that conversation a year
later can i uh before we move on to the next topic can i read the best can i read the best best comment from sax's tweet so sax's tweet just because an opinion is wrong it doesn't mean it should be censored just because the behavior is harmful doesn't mean it should be prohibited and just because something is beneficial doesn't mean it should be required the best response
goes to distantly social rumple whose full name is at wendell shirk who said this message brought to you by the generic self-serving platitude alert network we now return you to your regularly scheduled episode of the bland soap opera with the pablum sisters well yeah i look there there's there's an element of truth to that which is i i almost didn't tweet it because i thought
it was too much of a platitude but the fact that people on the other side got so triggered by it shows why it was actually useful to to tweet it is they think that if you're calling for any modicum of freedom or return to normalcy you're basically a selfish [ __ ] i mean it's insane i mean they want to stay in this world of zero s covis restrictions forever we've got to move
on we're 45 minutes into covin so we got to move on but i think if this is in the influenza plus or minus hundred percent zone we got to pick a number where we decide we're moving forward as a society and you know local communities can make decisions if they have outbreaks but i kind of think if this is within you know 2x of our yearly deaths from
you know influenza and just the normal cold i think we move forward as best we can do we want to go to china cuba i think just real quick before we move away from this i really want to just highlight the deep mind announcement from this morning because i think it's actually quite relevant to the tracking of variants and what's been going on okay so this morning you know deep mind
which published alpha fold and we talked about this a few uh owned by google it's their ai art it's an air owned by google and they basically took protein structure and uh tried to predict what a protein looks like physically as a function of uh the dna or rna that codes the amino acids that make up the protein and so again like when you have a string of amino acids
they combine and they fold into a wave it's really hard to predict and that's the shape of the molecule that we call the protein and then it does something in the body and historically we've had very hard times understanding how genetic code translates into physical structure of protein which would allow us to predict what that protein can then do in the body so this morning deep mind
incredibly published a database with the predicted structure of every protein in the human body and in 10 other species using this this capability that they now have what does it mean in english and so you know what this means is we now have a physical model of every protein that human dna can make and that model would allow us to basically now predict
what that protein does how it does it and how certain drugs can bind to those proteins and how certain drugs can affect those proteins and how we can alter human health by making new molecules or adjusting the genetic code to change the shape of those proteins in specific and targeted ways so it's an incredible data set that was just published it's almost like you know releasing the
rosetta stone in my opinion uh in terms of we now have this ability to translate human genetic code into the physical form of the molecules that run our body and do things in our body they did it for 10 other species and they said that they're going to publish this proteome database and scale it for all other species of life that we have the sort of data set around
for which they expect will achieve over a hundred million unique proteins in this database over the coming months freely available and searchable and let me just explain and i know i'm on a monologue here so i'll win the monologue it's a good one it's a good one um but let me just explain why this is relevant the delta variant what it is is that you know the the the sars cov2
rna sequence is about 30 000 base pairs long 10 of those or about 3 000 base pairs make up the spike protein which is the protein at the tip of the cove virus like the coronavirus that gets into the cells and you know for every 10 people that are infected with coronavirus there's about one nucleoside mutation one of those base pairs changes and the virus evolves and we don't know how that
change in that genetic code translates into a different structure of the protein and so we suddenly discover empirically and you know by looking around suddenly all these people are getting more infected than we're getting infected before we look at the genetic code and we're like oh here's the changes that happened but we could have with this capability from alpha fold
predicted what changes make the spike protein do a better job binding to human h2 receptors on the cells and getting into cells and what other changes could be made in the whole genome of the sars cov2 virus that could cause this virus to be more transmissible more deadly all these sorts of factors because we can now estimate the physical form of that protein by
changing the base pair and so this tool that was released today i think highlights that over the next decade these sorts of things that are going on with viruses mutating and variants occurring that are affecting our population can be better estimated and tracked digitally and it gives us the ability to start to prepare tools and defense mechanisms against them
uh with new drugs and new variant models and new um vaccines well ahead of the oh my god we just got hit with a nuclear bomb let's clean up the mess kind of in the future so it's an exciting day an exciting moment would they have been released this david if it hadn't been for covid coming out do you think deepmind just pivoted their entire group because they have about a thousand
people i understand and by the way they pay something in the order of six or seven hundred thousand a year on average and there's many people there who are getting paid millions of dollars a year so just think about the scale of what google is spending on this you guys know that they probably sh shifted a large number of people to work on this you guys because i have long deep roots
at google and um i will tell you that the value system of people there you know the press and the public will think what they want but i think that the value system of people there drove them to realize the importance of this work that they're doing with alpha fold and it is important for humanity and it's important for the health broadly of people they could have
kept it all inside and used it to build therapeutic drug companies and make money from that and i think the importance of this discovery and this capability um was uh was realized and is published for that very reason there's a lot of work that deepmind does to optimize ad targeting and ad spending and all this stuff and they make tens of billions of dollars of
incremental revenue for google per year based on those capabilities and then there are these things that benefit all of us and by putting this out publicly it's a great good for humanity and uh you know they're they're making it freely available and searchable um and so i i don't think that covid kind of instigated this because they've been working on this for a very long time since before kovid
and this is a very hard biological problem that is key to understanding biology and how biology works that's been going on for decades they've unlocked it with software and they're making it freely available um and you know there will be hundreds of drug companies that will now start because of what's in that database i mean this is a this is a mitzvah
uh to society to humanity does it change the fact that google is spending uh well over a billion dollars a year in deep mind and doing projects like this does this change any of your thinking about breaking them up tremoth or you know how we look at big tech that's a good question no we learned something very disturbing about big tech this week actually um this is quite a bombshell that jen
pasake dropped from the white house press briefing we got to talk about this she just sort of casually mentioned that oh yeah by the way the administration is flagging posts for a social media company for big tech companies to take down to remove accounts they're talking about specific accounts and posts yeah and she just kind of met just casually mentions oh yeah the big tech companies are very
you know eagerly cooperating with the administration to take down these accounts accounts she even said that when one of these companies takes down an account the rest should do it too implying that the white house is providing the central coordinative role in the censorship global block list yeah let me let's let's take the most charitable view here i know that it's
very easy to make this a left versus right there censoring yada yada trump got banned but if somebody was saying this was microch this was an account that was claiming that microchips were in the vaccine would it not be how would the and it was hitting scale you know what would be the way for the white house to inform social media that there was an account that was
saying falsely that microchips were in there and that that was trending the white house or its officials are free to put out their statements and their position but this is different this is the white house coordinating behind the scenes with big tech companies well they're not behind the scenes they're saying they're doing it right here to everybody correct correct the behavior was behind
the scenes but pasaki just admitted it which is why it's such a bombshell look even the aclu if you were president and there there was an account on facebook youtube twitter that was saying there was a microchip from bill gates this is a this is a blatant violation of the people's first amendment would you then tell them how would you you are allowed your the first amendment gives
you the right to say things that are untrue it is not the business of government to declare what is true and what is false okay even even hold on even the aclu came out of retirement we hadn't we haven't heard from them for the last year during any of these parts of the aclu yeah we haven't heard from them during the past year during all this um activity that's been
going on with the counts being blocked and ghosted they finally came out of retirement to say that that this is a dangerous violation of people's first amendment rights you cannot have the government saying what is true and what is false and then denying people the right um to express their opinions based on what the government thinks is the truth and by the way there's been a very subtle
change here in the language that's being used if you remember what the argument used to be that we have to stop disinformation does uh now it's shifted to we have to stop misinformation so those two things are very different it's kind of like that well it's kind of like the difference in the term equality versus equity they sound similar but they actually mean very different
things so disinformation is actually a campaign of a purposeful purposeful campaign of propaganda and lies usually put forward covertly so it's the fsb you're some intelligence agency putting out whatever putting out disinformation usually under false accounts so in that case we can say no you can't do that because you can't engage in deception around who you are right but
misinformation is simply information that's being put out that frankly you disagree with okay and or it could be discernibly wrong wait you're you're kind of framing that work it could be you're putting out information like there's a microchip in the vaccine that is explicitly known to be wrong look the the lab leak theory was considered misinformation by these same
people three months ago okay but let's take the specific example of there's a microchip if it was the case that they said there's a microchip in the vaccine would you be okay with the white house contacting social media coming saying hey you got these accounts that are saying there's a microchip you might want to look into it they're not saying take it down they're saying
take a look into it that's not the white house's business do i believe in the microchip theory no of course not it's absolutely ridiculous but it is not the business okay who to ban and who to block list i think they didn't tell them to ban i think they told them to be aware of it go ahead chime off i think your framing's wrong sex guys no no swasaki said
that when one site takes it down they should all take it down and then biden on top of it comes out and pours kerosene on the fire by saying that social media sites are literally killing people well yeah by allowing by allowing this misinformation so here we go let's be honest is the president of the united states using the bully pulpit to call social media uh sites mass murderers
by virtue of allowing people to have free speech trump never used language that intemperate i don't remember him ever calling this is the exact reason you you can't have a strangle hold on distribution because it will get perverted and then we either have people we like or people we don't like in these positions of power or people we like or people we don't like regulating
and it's constantly flipping and we're all just doomed and bound to get [ __ ] over so back to the thing that friedberg brought up before i think alpha fold is incredible i think google has been an incredible company they make money hand over fist they waste an enormous amount of money and all kinds of trash so it's good that they were actually able to do something useful here
i generally think that companies like google and facebook and amazon unfortunately do not allow the constructive form of capitalism that people want in today's society they're just too big tremoth makes a great point which is we've got these big tech monopolies who've become gatekeepers over content okay and what the administration has done and their allies in congress is
hang a sword of damocles over the heads of these big tech companies they've appointed lina khan to be the enforcer at the ftc they've got their six bills in congress right now they've held congressional hearings around taking away section 230 protection which is very economically advantageous for these big tech companies so they position the sword perfectly over the heads these big
tech companies threatening to break them up and rein them in and then jen pasake and the white house go to them and say we want you to take down these accounts that we don't agree with this is misinformation okay that is a huge danger to free speech it's basically like the administration saying to these big tech companies nice little social network you got there it'd be a real
shame if anything happened to it look at what's going on don't you want them broken up i do want them broken up but what i don't know which is if you want them to hold the sword or do you not want them to hold the sword i actually want the sword to come crashing i actually want the sword to come out swing the sword not hold it over and then use it for extortion
yeah that's actually a great explanation then freedom yes i'm trying to moderate here freeburg do you give a [ __ ] we've talked about this spent all day on his phone he has not dialed into this puzzle i'm with you guys i thought we just went over the alpha fold stuff way too fast i mean the arguing over freedom of speech is happening and all of this debate freedberg at the same time
that we are making incredible life-changing moments for humanity two different companies went to space last week with civilians and then we are basically uh defining the blueprint for the human and every other species on the planet and we're fighting over people too stupid to take a goddamn vaccine that would save everybody's life and let us continue on and people are dunking
on bezos for not reading the room i don't know if you saw this freedberg but how do you think about the space race in relation to reading the room etc progress technologically um will only arise with capital so you can assume that that progress you know it's not like someone stumbled into a cave and discovered a rocket ship or stumbles into a cave and discovered
alpha fold uh there are years of toiling and labs like edison did making the light bulb um edison had to raise a ton of money uh to get that light bulb uh project off the ground if you guys haven't read uh i'm trying to remember the biography there's uh uh wizards of something um it's got wizards in the title it's a good biography of medicine and um uh you know and and i feel like
we're at this moment where the wizard of menlow park yeah i think that's the the wizard of oz park that's right and the amount of capital that it takes to make these breakthroughs at alpha fold or at waymo uh or what bezos and elon are doing um is so extraordinary that you have to be in a position where you can fund this work you're not gonna get a bunch of
kickstarters to fund a spacex like project or a you know blue origin like project and so i think that the benefit of scale that comes out of some of these businesses is that we can do research and development and we can progress our capabilities as a species forward in a way that would have never been possible if not for the capitalist system and the ability for these businesses to
accumulate a large enough pool of capital to take on multiple billion dollar bets and like chimoff said waste a lot of money and lose on nine out of ten of them but if that one billion dollar bet works it's worth 500 billion dollars and that money continuously gets reinvested and look at what google did with waymo they put over a billion dollars in that project before everyone
woke up and said my god self-driving is real it's possible and it kick-started an industry and i i just feel like the amount of money and not to mention the fact that like these are free markets so these businesses google you don't have to search on google you don't have to buy from amazon but everyone benefits from searching on google everyone benefits from buying on
amazon and the capability of these businesses is rooted entirely on the fact that consumers are choosing to use their products and their services because they are so good and so i don't feel like these guys are um screwing people over you can consider the small business model as being like you know hey maybe we shouldn't have had small business retailers for as long as
we did because at some point distribution was going to be economically advantaged by being centralized and therefore all consumers are going to benefit by centralizing is there really a right to maintain local distribution sites that we call small businesses that should remain in business forever maybe there's a way to help them transition into a new business model or
a new market but same with what happened with the taxi industry technology will force these evolutions the capital accumulates and that capital can be invested in things that we would have never imagined um on a smaller scale but go ahead show up yeah no i do think sympathetic to what you were saying i do think that if you look at every platform innovation that's ever happened
so whether it's you know we go from no print to print you know to newspapers to radio to television you've always first started with a pendulum that was very much firmly in the camp of centralized monopolistic or oligopolistic kind of early outcomes and either through legislation or through innovation then the pendulum swings to decentralization that's typically
happened right and you can look at all of these industries that's gone through that so it stands to reason that technology will be not dissimilar to those things and everybody says the argument is well no because technology has these specific features of network effects and lock-in but i think that betrays this idea that legislatively you can come and just basically
destroy the china and the china shop and you have to just start all over so it's likely that we're going to move to a place that's a healthier outcome for everybody and obviously we want things like alpha fold to exist and we want things like waymo to exist the question is how should they exist and if they come out of the goodwill of google it is just so easily as likely
that some other person let's say it wasn't sundar and ruth peratt but two other people who didn't like it these things could have been very different forms and shapes and not existed at all and i think that's the arbitrary nature of it which is not necessarily free market capitalism that doesn't benefit us should we chamoth be upset that bezos is going to space and spending tens of
billions of dollars that he made from amazon he had a bad press conference let's just be clear at the end of the day he has wanted to do this his entire life he built an incredible company he was able to take a lot of that capital and invested in it he's invested billions of dollars in other things 10 billion dollars in climate change his ex-wife has invested you know six billion dollars
just last year alone in all kinds of good works so those two individuals because of their success i think will generally do and have done the right thing let's not get that confused with a horrendous press conference where he just was well i think you said it you know the thing that he said around uh you know i just want to thank the customers and the employees for paying for this
it sounded flippant and it didn't really acknowledge the incredible amount of heavy lifting and hard work that he did acknowledge in the clip from 2000 on charlie rose right so if you if you actually played those two things back side by side you'd say is this the same person one was thoughtful extremely respectful the other one was now maybe he was just amped up i mean i
could see him and so and so he just wasn't thinking about it but you know honestly like look he is smart enough and that team is smart enough to say we're assuming you're coming back so here are some [ __ ] talking points why don't you just look at those on the way down as you float down to earth and let's just make sure we nail this and put our best foot forward that
is where i think he probably has some regrets based on how people reacted this bezos space flight was a real rorschach test because he took heat from both the right and the left but the criticism was very different you know the critique i heard from the right was that uh he's having some sort of mid-life crisis and the rocket looked too much like a phallus okay fine whatever that the criticism from
the left was um it had much more to do with a real contempt for private initiative and private enterprise you could almost see them being horrified and dismayed that you know why was he doing this with his own money you know if this had been a nasa flight i don't think they would have had a problem with it and so you see here that even though bezos has been so much
more effective using his own money uh to do this that the leftist reflexively hates that uh and and and and they kept saying well how dare he use this money the money could have been used on something else so much better well what do you think of that argument yeah i think it's wrong in a couple of respects it basically implies that the purveyors of these social
programs are better distributors of societal resources than our greatest inventors and i don't think that's true you look at these social programs they want to keep doubling down on they're not working you know these programs our policies towards homelessness is not failing because of lack of funding there's a tremendous amount of funding in san francisco they're spending 60
thousand dollars per tent per year they're spending 300 000 in social services per homeless person per year lack of funding is not the problem the approach is the problem we spend something like twenty five thousand dollars per pull per pupil in california schools the test scores are going down so you know these people who are criticizing bezos don't know what to do with the money
they don't know how to spend anything they're not good at executing however bezos or elon these are two of our greatest inventors let them go let them go because you know they are pushing the boundaries and i do believe there will be great engineering and scientific breakthroughs that come as a result of what they're doing with this new space race it's also super uninformed if
correct me if i'm wrong here but they were saying that they they should have been doing more initiatives on earth if you actually and they were kind of talking about climate change and the use of these fuels to get to space and number one uh the the rocket ship fuel my understanding in these is less than the what happens in a 747 so put that aside and then second elon has done more for
global warming with tesla than anybody in the and the battery packs i think in modern society i can't think of somebody in the private sector who's done more and then has there ever been a get there's never been a gift of 10 billion dollars to one cause let alone one cause which bezos gave which was climate change no no nobody has done it also hasn't you
would know chamoth i thought richard branson had done a lot for globe warming i thought he was very involved in the carbon uh credits space i think that we're witnessing something that can best be described as people who have reached a point in their life where they've realized that they're impotent getting incredibly angry at people who are willing to be wrong
but want to just have a chance to be on the field and try and have the freedom to do so and that just literally infuriates a certain class of people it proves itself out by what david said we are not in a funding crisis we are running 10 20 trillion dollar deficits you know or sorry uh 10 you know hundreds of billions of dollar deficits 10 20 trillion dollar debt levels that are
increasing every year we have a surveyed of money we print money whenever we want we don't have a shortage of money we have a shortage of capable people who know what to do with that money and in the absence of people being able to do things they would rather other people not do things not because it's not the right thing to do but because it makes them feel impotent
right and and so what what is what is driving that i think you there's a real contempt for private initiative and and jason you're right you see it in the hatred towards elon nobody has done more to actually reduce carbon emissions than elon i mean even the best gifts period end of story i mean the bezos gift to some philanthropy i don't know if that's going to make a
difference or not you're right that he's putting his money where his mouth is on that issue but it's indisputable that elon the electric car industry would not exist without elon and yet there is contempt and hatred for the fact that he did this through private initiative if they became because he does it in a way that is not checking the boxes for this cohort of people
who feel incredibly insecure and fragile emotionally they don't like that he says what he wants they don't like that he does what he wants they don't like that he dresses the way he does they don't like any of it because it's not conformist enough it's not about the look people it's also about the money that's the wealth that's been accumulated too well no no hold on i don't think that's
what it is at all no i actually think what it is is psychological it is nothing about money i think what we are witnessing and i think social media has just blown the cover off it is a psychological awakening that people have which is that they were comfortable knowing that there was a class of insiders and a huge cohort of outsiders and they just believed the world would function
as it should now you see people migrating through this membrane achieving enormous amounts of success basically eclipsing every single insider possible by orders of magnitude and it breaks people's brains because they don't like it because now they think why didn't it happen to me why not me and the thing is because you're not capable and at somewhere along the way
hard working you're not dedicated you didn't try or you didn't try they didn't act with agency i mean look every day every day the greatest thing that i've learned about the public markets now having been you know purely on the early stage technology side building running then investing is i get a mark every day right now to do both businesses i get a score scorecard every
day and some days i really think to myself maybe i'm just not good enough today and i say to myself that is true today and then the the difference is tomorrow i have a choice which is i wake up and i decide am i going to go back at it or not and i'm going to game and i'm not going to hate on other people who had a good day today just because i had a bad day
and that's what i think we're going through we're going through and social media allows it to happen and it allows you to put it out there you can hide behind a screen name you can basically say whatever you want to vent this pent-up frustration watching journalists doing it of course of course because these journalists are doing it too they're just so bitter that they feel
dunking on the greatest inventors of our time is a productive use the difference is journalists do it with a real screen name under the guise of journalism everybody else does it with a fake screen name and it's all just a bunch of trolling in order to do something really great like bezos or like elon you have to believe that you have agency over your own life you have to
believe that you can accomplish great things you have to you know act with with purpose and is that really what we're teaching kids to uh today in schools what we're teaching them is they're either victims or oppressors it's some intersectional framework we're not teaching them about earned success we're teaching them about privilege which is you know is presumptively
ill-gotten and it's all about a transference of privilege and um and basically money from people who are oppressors in this framework to people who are victims but no one's talking about how you actually create changes successfully abundance right abundance it's all a negative sum it's always a negative sum game free bird go ahead i dance back to the kim kardashian sex tape
i think that there was this moment where someone who was didn't do anything didn't have a career wasn't doing anything work wise but was kind of a pseudo celebrity for being a celebrity it's like the paris hilton nicole richie era right like uh folks who don't really have much to talk about except that they're the ones that people are talking about and then that sex tape
turned her into a superstar and then she became a billionaire a few years later and so um you know there there is this kind of poignant moment i think where folks are like wait a second you don't have to do anything to get really rich in this country you don't have to do anything to achieve all this fame therefore the ex the kind of assumption is hey you know what there are people that
just get stuff and get to do what they want to do and the rest of us don't um and i do think that social media is the magnifying glass that takes those those moments and makes them very big and kind of then that becomes the assumed standard when the reality is i mean all four of us worked really [ __ ] hard all four of us came from nothing i don't know about sax but
i mean the rest of us his dad was an immigrant doctor from south africa and he moved to south asia i'm just doing 80s well i mean i mean i think all of us graduated college deeply in debt and then we all worked our way out of debt and we all found ways to work really hard and find opportunities for ourselves in this incredible country and to build value and to build
businesses to realize those returns and we don't start out as elites we were never elite we were always the struggling you know immigrant entrepreneurs that got ourselves to where we are because we clawed and we pushed and we fought and we had grit we had determination and we had smarts and we had put in the effort and i think that that's not really and so did bezos
and so did elon and i don't think that there is any standard of elitism that endowed in them like maybe in you know the british the days of the british monarchy these kind of inalienable rights to have the freedom that they have and i think that that and i think that that's so important because people miss that point and they think that kim kardashian or the random bolt of lightning or the elite
is the kind of endowed upon people in a way that's unfair they're misreading the situation everyone else is missing out yeah they misread the situation so a couple things kim kardashian may have gotten some initial fame because of her sex tape but [ __ ] if she's not an incredible business person because from there to now that's execution totally there's a lot of there's a lot of toiling
hard work good decision-making she [ __ ] nailed it was i lucky to have actually joined facebook versus myspace yes but when i was there did i [ __ ] hit the cover off the ball god damn yes you know was i lucky to have started social capital and be able to raise capital sure but then did i have to help find a team coach that team work with them make good investments
that's [ __ ] hard and i think what people forget is that this takes a lot of hard work that there's all kinds of levels of success that you can be proud of all kinds of different accomplishments what i loved is when friedberg used us and elon and bezos in the same sentence because i catch myself where i'm ashamed sometimes or i'm like i am not as good as those two guys so
how dare i use my name in the same sentence as their name and then i think wait a minute what the [ __ ] am i quibbling over like this is insane in any way shape or form we've all made it sure there's different degrees but it's beyond that it matters at this point and this is what i think we're living in a society where it really distorts you so if how do we change it
how do we change people from thinking that it's random and that you can't do it because there are a group of people who but there are a group of people who believe the system is rigged i cannot become chamath and i'm stuck i'm stuck in a rut and i can't get out i can't get out how do we change that belief yeah the whiners and the complainers and the haters are stuck in a massive run
and i think the thing that happened and i said it last part i'll say it again and maybe i'll just say it every [ __ ] pod it is not about winning and losing it is about trying and learning and that is a huge thing it's about a learning mindset it's about this idea that things are changing so [ __ ] fast the only thing that i can do to stay safe is to learn how to learn because
things will constantly be changing underfoot but what do you say to the single mother with three kids who who is in a town where the the factory is shutting down and she's losing her job and she doesn't have the resources to move she she is not the person that hates elon musk or jeff bezos i will [ __ ] do because aren't there institutional ruts in the united states yeah
i understand these are two completely different topics my point is if you go online it is filled with p a small cohort of people that are positive and then a large cohort of people that are silently trying to just gain information and a small vocal minority of bitter people who can't do [ __ ] and all i'm talking about privileged people well who knows if they're
privileged but i'm just saying they're getting paid a hundred thousand to work at the election i just think that these people have been check boxers their whole lives they tried to play the team sports they were told to they went to the schools they tried to do the the cfa the mba the this or that nothing worked for them they work in an environment where they don't feel
any equity actually this is where equity is important they feel disenfranchised and they're angry and as a result they just want everything to be different so that nobody wins because they can't win but if they were winning they would be the first one to say shut the [ __ ] door behind me i'm convinced of it 100 yeah the irony is that the people you're talking about
all went to these elite institutions and and they imbibed these ideologies and philosophies and i think the people who have been successful went to those not in all cases but they went to those places and then rebelled against it or just shut it out here's what we should do here's what we should do we should all contribute 5 or 10 million bucks into a into an llc we should call pegasus
we should use pegasus to infiltrate all the fake screen names on twitter and then index that to linkedin to figure out where they all went to school and what they do and just publish a new database of all the haters well i mean it's how funny would that be i i it's very interesting because i'm watching a group of these complainers leave traditional mainstream media because
i'm focused on journalists because i was one and i'm watching them leave journalism a small group of them and become entrepreneurs on sub stack or their own products and i feel like there's a little group of them who are realizing holy [ __ ] i can make a million dollars if i apply myself and i quit the new york times and i go start my own publication right and i actually say something
interesting and differentiated not just towing the party line at the new york times exactly there's a whole little there's a little crack here in this like i'll say i'll say they are just as successful as elon musk and jeff bezos the the financial quantum may be different but i bet you the personal [ __ ] satisfaction quantum is the same and this is a little key this is the key
you could be running a 500 000 your business and you could feel like a million [ __ ] bucks yeah you have a nice house you have a nice family you employ a couple people you provide a good life you do what you want to do when you want to do it the sense of freedom that comes with that and agency and agency is the same as them and maybe in some ways the super richest guys in the world
actually have less agency than these guys would because they're so you know scheduled and people are coming after them all the time one of my big takeaways from being in the tech industry for 20 years is that if you're smart hard working and don't have behaviors that sabotage yourself you will be successful in this industry you know over two decades i mean
i've just seen how could you not you have such tailwinds at your back there's so much value being created we saw over the past year more money more lp dollars have gone into venture capital by far than any other year and more money more returns is coming out that's why more money is going on no i'm on the call when you say anybody could be successful just by showing it right and
and you said that but the first part is the critical part you just said who are not prone to self-sabotage there is an enormous number of people who are prone to self i was one i am still one but i broke yourself yourself your ego he blew up his that's firm but i think he blew it up because there was creative destruction i think he wasn't enjoying it and he needed to start
oh he's talked about it publicly he said it but the blowing up of when how do you reconcile the blowing up of the firm chamoth whatever number of years later this is all old news it's like you know the amount of success and capital and money that we've made is undisputable and uh i've made it under all kinds of weather conditions so you know it all kind of speaks for
itself but the problem is again if you ask an average person i don't think they care i don't think they know i don't think they have an opinion if you ask some you know i'm interested in how you reconcile or look back on it now it's so much distance i'll tell you from an outside perspective how i reconcile chamath's decision there is i think that as you become more successful
your tolerance for doing stuff you don't want to do really goes down zero it goes to zero hundred dollars about this got to a point where he didn't want to be doing it and he blew it up zero by the way that that that is a characterization as well that you know sometimes in in your career you have to make it and in your personal life you have to make a tough decision
and there is there is no good outcome there is no good way there's no grateful way to do it but there are these moments where you got a rock falling on you from one side and a rock falling on you from the other side and you're gonna have to make a tough decision to get out of the way i said to myself a long time ago that if i was ever lucky to actually be wealthy enough where
um my wealth would change by um meaningful amounts every order of magnitude i would do something different um and so you know you can do the [ __ ] math so there it is it's interesting being friends with you and watching it and then also i hate to give you know any credit there it is but being friends with phil hellmuth and watching him set outrageous goals
for himself in poker i just thought you know what you got to set some outrageous goals for yourself and that's how i sort of broke through as i just said the minute i want to be number one at everything i do i want to be the largest syndicate the most jason prolific investor the minute i realized that i was basically going to become you know a billionaire because of my facebook
stock i [ __ ] quit and the craziest thing about it is i left so much stock on the table it's like two three billion dollars of [ __ ] stock i couldn't care less and then and then you know once i figured out that there was something that you can do with capital that's even more meaningful than just investing in companies at a small scale but now you can you know control companies and really
allocate and shape how economy flows i made a different set of decisions and now i'm here and if i increase it by another order of magnitude i'll make a different set of decisions and that's poorly understood by folks because again it doesn't map into a world view but the point is it maps into something that keeps me whole and sane and it allows me to not be zero-sum
about everybody else's success and that's what i think we need to teach people try stuff it's okay to fail because that's as long as you're not self-sabotaging yourself david said it so well you will eventually be successful what have you learned david you know in this next chapter being an investor capital allocator that me yeah david you well just yeah no it's what i said i mean
just well i mean the thing that's happening right now is just the tech economy keeps getting bigger and bigger it's just an explosion there's an explosion in the number of unicorns explosion of the amount of funding that's available explosion and the amount of returns being generated there are now so many vcs that vcs are literally throwing money at
people i mean any half-decent idea now gets funded the idea that somehow this ecosystem is elitist or exclusionary it's absurd right i mean you've got micro vcs now who no one has to go to sand hill road anymore right i mean there are so many ways there's nobody on hill road it's a ghost town remember a traffic jam i went i went down there the other day and there was no traffic jam i was
speaking at stanford and literally i was like i got to put 15 minutes into my drive to get through that sandhill road because it was at 8 30. right i zipped down central road to stanford there was two cars the the tech ecosystem is so osmotic it's so permeable in terms of allowing new people and in fact it's sucking in all the talent it can find because it
can't hire enough people even in the worst economic conditions and yet when it comes to talking about social and political talking about opportunity in social and political terms the only thing you ever hear is that you know the ecosystem is somehow elitist or exclusionary and that's old that's old news that that might have been valid 15 20 years ago i know when i went to santo road for the
first time 15 20 years ago it was a bunch of white partners who went to stanford or had a mbas from you know harvard but that's not the case now it's a bunch of people with rolling funds and micro vcs and syndicates totally and everything in between if you're so wrapped up in in being a social justice warrior that you've just missed that there is like basically infinite opportunity
you know then it's on you you're sabotaging yourself and then five ten years later you're still stuck in that role and then you become bitter and then you become better to jamal's point free brook how hard was it for you to leave google and what was that like i was at google for two and a half years uh i had gone through i joined before the ipo i was like a
couple hundred employees just under a thousand employees and then we went public i got this huge bonus from sergey to stick around uh when i was thinking about huge i mean for me it was like um seven figures it was yeah it was a couple thousand shares of stock and like 250 000 of cash and i gave it up um you know be worth a lot of money but i just felt like and i learned so much at google and
i had such an appreciation uh for the team there in the company and by the way i worked at google and all of a sudden the company went public and i could buy a house i mean it was an incredible moment for me and and and i suddenly felt what jamaat talked about which is this freedom in my life suddenly i had hit that that next plateau of wealth where i now had a couple
hundred thousand dollars of net worth and i could leave or i guess i had over a million dollars of net worth and i could now leave and go do something i wanted to go do with my no i had a couple hundred thousand dollars and i could go leave and do what i wanted to do which was to build my own business and have the freedom to make decisions and um and so i honestly felt
like really fine just leaving all that money behind i left i left millions of dollars behind uh for when i left google after being there for two and a half years to start my company um and you know it was a struggle right like i mean as you guys know building a business which i did from 2006 to 2013 um was a nightmare every day was a nightmare i i say uh in entrepreneurship i said
this publicly before but it feels like every day you're taking a step backwards and one out of five days you take a five step leap forward so at the end of a week you're one step ahead of where you started but your existential memory is that you're failing every day every day and suddenly you wake up and seven years have gone by and you're like oh [ __ ] we've got an amazing business
and someone wants to buy it for a billion dollars and um if you don't have the grit and the guts uh and the determination to push through those those daily battles and deal with that that hardship uh you know and i don't think that being in the comfort of the big system of google felt right for me i think being in the playing field and battling it out every day is right
for me um and so it was the right it was the right call for me obviously it worked out but you know still i i make choices in my life in terms of what do i want to do do i want to go live on a yacht or have some luxury or do whatever and i prefer to just make great businesses and turn science into into commercial opportunity and that's how i choose this that might never
and i just wanted to send this out to the whole panel do you ever think you know having hit the home runs and having the cash to literally retire at this age and then just you know kite board or do whatever do you ever think about retirement and not going into work [ __ ] no okay yeah you wanna do you feel you wanna work harder yesterday yesterday as an example was an
incredible day because i was able to um bicycle with nat and uh the youngest to go get a gelato i had a kickoff meeting for i had a kickoff meeting for a startup that's doing something incredible uh in batteries where you know starting from scratch series a co-founders me and the other into the other director and we're starting literally starting and i remember the feeling of having
done this now 30 or 40 times and it's the best feeling [Applause] and then i and then i had a call because i'm trying to put a you know more than a billion dollars to work in a different battery idea and i thought to myself god like i'm so [ __ ] lucky um and it's it was a grindy long day and i had never felt more thankful so why would i you know you could and i don't know i i
feel just so blessed saks you ever think about hanging up um or are you more motivated to go to work every day are you annoyed yeah i mean the thing that's giving me the most energy right now is we're in uh a private beta on call-in near this app that we incubated and um i mean it's better it's it's good and it's getting better every day and i'm really enjoying tinkering
on it and i feel like you know i've you know it's kind of like a tinkerer by the way you're a good product that you're good you're good at the tickling you know we tried to hire sax's vp of product at uh facebook what yeah what would that have paid him i used 2 000 sacks no no because i did yammer instead and you know yammer was successful and i got to be my own boss and that was better
you know so i don't know if i probably wouldn't have made as much money but look i've done like you guys i've done made lots of decisions that made me less money if i just stayed at paypal for 20 years my stock would have been worth many many billions right that's why i tell people don't sell everything let your winners ride at least partially yeah i mean look my i was an investor in
facebook if i just kept all of that stock that'd be worth a billion dollars today so it's pretty crazy well sell some just don't sell everything that's my new philosophy yeah so your point about your point about what gives me enjoyment i mean i'm really having fun tinkering with this app and you know what it's like it's like it's like a new season if you're in like
the nba or something it's like can we make a championship run can we get one more ring you know and so you're like you know it'd be like saying to somebody hey you already got you know to a nba an nba champion hey you got three rings why do you want a fourth you know and it's like are you kidding me while i'm still in this league well i'm young enough and healthy enough
to make a run at one more at one more ring how could you not want to do that you know you got to go for it i've got to go forward i can see you where you're engaged which is great to see all right listen it's been an amazing episode uh we will see you all next week if you like the show thanks the end we're not going to be something everybody go try to do
something anything possible try it just try outside your comfort zone read something that you wouldn't have otherwise read love you guys but yeah i love you guys love you back see you soon love everybody listening to everybody i mean literally if you're listening to this and you are buying into this that the system is right neutral don't be a troll don't be a douche like
the system is not rigged if anything the system is rigged for you to participate and succeed join the party the system is malleable the system is if you want to change the world the system is malleable enough that if you pursue it in the right way you can make it you can make a a dent you can uh who is this who is this little search hey look how happy you are
who's the best dad where's your dad all right we'll see you all next time on the all-in podcast bye bye we'll let your winners ride rain man david and they've just gone crazy with it [Music] we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're all just it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] your feet we need to get mercury [Music]