we're going mullet this week in honor of your you're closest to Mullet right now S I see you trying to tuck the lettuce in it's not going to work we see it back there well I need the ponytail whoow you went full knot where is this photo like a secret camera in his room what is this no my kids took it oh my are you really doing a douche knot one of my daughters is playing with my hair she wants to see
if she can make a ponytail with it so she made a ponytail and then took a photo so we FedEd into chat GPT to ask who it looked like and it said Thomas Jefferson just serious question did you do a fit check with with Tucker on that did you send him that and say fit check yeah not everything has to do with Tucker jel the joke's look at the smile if you guys don't know what a fit check is ask your daughters a wait what what
check a fit check a fit check you take a picture of yourself you send it to your friends you say fit check and then they tell you if you look good for the day oh okay it's kind of like it's kind of like a wellness check but for f how you look for fashion okay yeah it's like when freeberg send you I'm have anxiety about this and then we do a wellness check on freedberg see if he's going to show up
for the show or we do a wellness check on you when Alex Jones comes back to Twitter I'm putting it out there right now and Alex Jones is on the back half of the show just to tease it just like I'm going to tease these photos I pulled the archives and here I am in 1984 with my mullet that's a jcal mullet from 1984 in Staten Island on the way to a Boy Scout trip but I thought we would have a
little fun sa actually has been uh working he's got his hair stylist yeah well the gr he looks like a Lord of the Rings character like an elf and Warrior no he looks like Theo exactly so we we'll punch that up but Shaman actually surprisingly surprisingly good I can't look it's horrible freeberg you're not getting away on touch here it is freberg looks like I think we should all go this
he looks like Orlando Bloom and Lord of the Rings right actually it looks like more like that vampire movie what was that he does look like Interview with the Vampire or yeah he looks like he's teaching gender studies at Berkeley in his nine nonbinary so if you want to take understanding nonbinary ethic gender studies 101 it's coming this spring freeberg going to be teaching on his all Mama well done I'll find you
guys a photo I'll send it to you as my I did have a ponytail I sported it from about age 16 to 19 when I smoked cigarettes too and I've got photos with the ponytail the trench coat smoking Sig so it fits the fits the all right so uh in in the spirit of mullets let's go business first and we will go to the party at the end let's get started boys let your winners [Music] ride and instead we open source it to
the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love queen of with me again today here on the all-in podcast the king of we've retired queen of quinoa because David freeberg is CEO of a startup he can still be the queen is the main product freeberg no so he's the king of beep he's the king of vegetables off the Record wait wa wait is classified what crop you're working on yeah absolutely
okay absolutely it's a SAS comp like a SAS company wants to keep it on the DL which vertical they're going after Finance or sales whatever he's got to keep those it could be carrots you never know he could be Captain carrots you never know just not Beats okay freeberg we don't need more beets in the world yeah I'm going to say Noel dude be are delicious beets are delicious yeah you're right no more beets beets with
some feta cheese delicious yeah you're right we more be we need more um brussels sprouts can be very good you know saut them look you caramelize the Sprouts very good let's make those cheaper free BG yeah bigger and cheaper and more tasty you know you know what people people people dunk on but it's a great vegetable is cabbage I like cabbage if you like shred cabbage into a salad
and you put a little olive oil little lemon little salt Chinese chicken salad like Chinchin in La that's nice exactly yeah Sak did you like friberg's Christmas party last week how was it did you enjoy it as much as we did oh it was great oh right saak didn't show up did I miss the party I thought it was next week who does a Christmas party first week before you tell your story a very kind gentleman Rings the door to my gate
I open the gate the guy drives in he gets out he's like a big guy kind of says Mr fredberg and I'm like what am I getting served and he goes to the back seat and I'm like oh my God I'm going to get shot he reaches in and he pulls out a beautifully wrapped gift he's like this is from Mr Sachs Mr freedberg um happy holidays and then he gave me like a touch on the shoulder or like he does
this thing where he goes like this did a little bow he got back in his car and he drove away a bow what is he shler it was like a when you go to an amort he did the Aman thing that they do oh right that no no that wasn't his Butler that was his valet that's his valet he stole the valet from the Aman the the it was the most thoughtful no show I've ever had I will say sex well I'm glad to hear
that I'm glad to hear that well what's funny is I just checked my inbox and my invitation from you is sitting in there because I've been meaning to go but I didn't realize it was so soon so I'm just looking at the date it was December 9th I didn't realize it was five days ago sorry about that someone in your household did so we appreciate it someone new I went but this is my this
is my second or third year going so I pre I pregamed it I went and I got protein I got meat I ate a bunch of steak and a burger and then I went and sure enough I talked to the staff and the staff said after much debate and Haring with freeberg he allowed cheese this year you allow chees Sushi we had a whole Sushi platter thing no stop you didn't have sushi okay it's now now it's my turn to tell the truth go ahead tell
the truth Jamar I get in the car to drive 90 minutes 90 minutes to freees for bad that's the poker trip for me by the way but yeah now and I Nat texts Allison and David we're on our way chth wants to know will there be meat because I'm driving so I can't text be me and Ally says oh yeah don't worry they'll be Sushi and the NAT text back okay we just got off the highway we're going home
we'll see you later because we don't believe says there's going to be fish fine I get there haven't eaten a thing I am starving ravenous I start I start to work my way through the appetizers there's like slight green peppers and red peppers there's like some falafal then there was a Spanish omelet all pretty decent okay and I'm like where's the sushi and so Phil de says a thousand bucks there's no sushi and I said no
there's free Berke texted me he said I've asked all the people working here they say there's no sushi so I I bet him $1,000 I go outside to where the sushi is and you know how we used to make fun of sky for having the filler fruit at the game cantaloup like cantaloupe and honeydew and that's all there was yeah there was no sushi but there was two or three rolls with yeah four pieces of
salmon strategically cut just laying over I won the bet I was so hungry I was like what do I eat I'm starving so I keep eating the omelet I keep eating the vegetarian food and then I see these brownies and I'm like I'll just have a brownie then I had two brownies and then I was like okay I need to stop I can't I can't have this I'm and I'm still so hungry I walk outside J C where I saw
you we're having a cup of coffee and you know what I did I ate five baklava and then I was like this is disgusting I've had no protein I've had no carbohydrates I've had no fiber I've had a [ __ ] 3,000 calories of sugar I grabbed Nat and I charged home I was so mad he did he Irish mad I didn't see him say goodbye Irish goodbye freeberg and I talked about it yesterday we talked it out but I was I I must have had 6,000
calories at his Christmas part coming over to chof tonight yeah it's only going to be TR tip the whole night I'm sure not a singal Insight it sounds like Jal pre-loaded the meat he uh did he got ready absolutely I on the way no seriously after last year last year I left that party and I just typed in I just said to my you go to closest in an outb and I literally got a double double
and then I just had a second one on the way up this time I I literally had a steak for dinner and then I went and then I I too had some po have you guys ever had Popeyes of course course I had never had it my son asked to get it last week last weekend i' never had it can you believe it here we go it is the most incredible thing I've ever tasted these Popeye sandwiches wow wait for the Out of Touch YouTube comments
Jam is out of touch popey the problem is not the eating of it it's it's how you feel two hours later but I mean I've had Chick-fil-A you know I've done the chicken sandwiches at other places never po pies is incredible incredible so then I I I had not almost on the edge of convincing her to go to popey's on the way home but we missed the closing time so we couldn't get it I got go to starbird or bonchan
those are two other Elite bro not not I'm not talking fancy chicken I've had like the fancy chicken sandwiches I'm saying Popeyes is incredible I like it I like austerity chath here we go have you had a FL of fish all right let's get the show started here of course with me again the king of beep the dictator and the Rainman let's get to work everybody epic the makers of fortnite just won a
huge case with Google over the play app store on Android phones for those of you don't know app stores have become an absolutely huge business for Apple and Google Google App Store generates 50 billion dollar of Revenue a year now that's about 177% of Google's total revenue Apple's App Store and services 85 billion in annual revenue these are on top of their franchises of hardware and search but Jan San Francisco
unanimously found that Google violated California's Federal antitrust laws through sweetheart deals and annoying workarounds that stifled competition for example Google got spooked that other game developers would follow epic's lead and launch their own app stores or route people directly to their websites to avoid the 30% take rate some might call it attack Google calculated they would
lose 2 billion to 3.5 billion in Revenue annually if the other major game developers followed epic so they created a program Coden named project hug where they basically P out bribes or incentives to discourage large developers from building their own competitive app stores they also gave Spotify a sweetheart deal of z% and Google paid Activision $360 million to keep in the Play
Store and the discovery in this case was absolutely wild according to testimony in the trial Google had deleted Ed some employees chat logs and the judge told the jury to assume that the deleted information wouldn't have been favorable to Google Dre only deliberated a few hours and Google plans to appeal the verdict obviously epic isn't seeking damages they just want Google to change their
practices they want to basically let people plug in their own Billing System to avoid the 30% tax we'll see what happens next freeberg these stores clearly have monopolistic characteristics but and Google actually allows for third party app stores maybe you can explain why you think Apple won their case against epic but Google lost these are pretty different cases the Apple case was a judge this one was a a jury of
citizens in federal court I think it's worth just backing up a minute and talking about the history of like apps on phones and how Android came to be prior to Google acquiring Android you guys may remember there were a few companies that were were the dominant OS providers operating system providers to mobile phones there was Nokia there was Microsoft there was Apple and there was
also blackberry and at the time a lot of the Telos the Verizon and AT&T of the world prior to this were trying to make money by charging for people to install apps on phones so that was the first business model in the mobile internet was the Telco would make money and everyone fought against it all the open internet providers said this is ridiculous and it was clear that that was not going to be allowed so
ultimately these operating systems became the play and which operating system was on which mobile phone and what did that operating system then allow to control what apps were allowed and so on so the reason Google bought Android is they wanted to make an open-source alternative to all of these closed app and closed systems so Google bought Android 2005 made a huge investment in growing the team and
allowed anyone to use the Android OS Fork it make their own versions of it install it on their own Hardware run it however they wanted meanwhile Google made an internal version of Android that could be used on any mobile handset company's phone as a pre-installed OS now why did Google want to do this they wanted to do this number one to make sure that the internet was still open and it wasn't going to end up being
closed from a user's perspective and number two so that anyone could install any app they wanted and the commercial interest for Google which is number three is so that Google could make search Google search the default search engine on that phone and have YouTube installed and all these other tools that Google makes money on including their own app store now in Android anyone can
install any app they want on the phone and so there's no restrictions unlike in apple in in the iOS if you try and download an app off the internet and install it it has to go through the App Store it has to be apple verified in order to be allowed on the phone so the whole point of Android was that it could be open anyone could install anything what epic claimed in this case was that Google's Android OS gave people security
warnings so if you ever have tried this you download an app from a website on Android it says warning warning this may cause a virus on your phone are you sure you want to do this this app hasn't been verified by Google etc etc so it gives These Warnings that scare consumers off of doing that so epic can in you can install fortnite Direct on your Android phone today and you can do it by
downloading it from epic's website you don't have to go through the Google Play Store and you can enter your credit card and you can pay for stuff so it is it is an open system that allows that what these guys are claiming is that because Google can default the Google Play Store on the phone it's basically what most consumers are going to use anyway and so they're saying it's not fair and because
they also have influence over the OS and they're putting these security warnings it's inappropriate because now it's scaring people from downloading stuff off the internet so that's the big claim epic's making so Google has already said they're going to appeal this case because fundamentally again if this were really true and there really was deep Anti-Trust issues with this you would
likely have seen a federal agency come after Google not a private company suing them in a civil case this would have been a much more more significant action If there really was Anti-Trust Behavior but it's a lot easier to win a jury trial party to party where epic can go to a court and say hey let's go after Google they're awful we make fortnite and all this sort of stuff so they do
have a bias in that sense of being able to do this Google's going to appeal they feel very strongly they'll win on appeal and the markets obviously did a you know voted with the fact that Google stock didn't really move anywhere and the market said hey this is a this is a nothing Burger Google's 40 billion in annual Play Store Revenue worst case scenario like you said if gets impacted by $2 billion that's 2 billion out of
300 overall doesn't really matter and likely they're going to win on appe peal anyway so you know I think the Saga will continue um but I think Google's got a pretty strong case on appeal and it seems like you know it's going to be very hard to kind of see a massive change in app store Behavior as a result of this case even though it's been hyped up to be that that's my take on it yeah
yeah great take chamath what do you think about this jury shopping and maybe the fact that this isn't Lena con this isn't the FTC you know it's company to company do you think that the claims here were valid do you think the jury shopping impacted this in a significant way probably I guess the simple thought exercises what do we think the outcome would have been had this trial happened in Dallas Texas probably
different and so I think freeberg is right what does it materially prove nothing with respect to the body of law it just goes to show that if you pick the right place to convene these trials in the right format you can give yourself a slightly better probability of winning but the question is what will you win it's not clear to me what happens now is there going to be a damages portion now of this trial is
that what happens next they're not seeking damages they want changes to how they operate and they're trying to get a settlement and they want Google to settle out with changes to the App Store policies that's what they're asking for and then what about the Epic versus Apple lawsuit is it being done in the same way no they lost they lost and they appealed and there's one element that's
being appealed to the Supreme Court now but basically they lost and that's over and that was that convened in California in a jury trial as well in San Francisco no that that was not a jury trial it was a judge and but it was California yeah it was a bench trial in California yeah yeah it was also in Northern California that's right yeah so sax let me bring you in on this do you think that these
stores are monopolies and do you think if they change their behavior especially Apple you know Alla the third party what impact that would that have on the startup ecosystem because the 30% tax is significant and we see that every day with our startups I mean if you have to give away 30% of your Revenue to Google and apple it's brutal and then you're advertising on Apple and Google and
Facebook that's another 30% of your revenue or 50% of your Revenue yeah no I agree with that so first of all these app stores are absolutely monopolies within their ecosystem and Apple and Google Android are absolutely a duopoly within the mobile space my experience with these types of monopolies or Gatekeepers is that they exercise more more control and extract more and more of the value over time
it's an iterative process in which they just keep you know extracting keep taxing keep keep imposing more rules on the ecosystem for their benefit and to the detriment of innovators and so I do think they have to be controlled and I think epic is doing the ecosystem a favor for example on this 30% rake that you're talking about J C that level of rake might have been appropriate for certain types of apps like a hobbyist
app where it's literally 100% margin okay you pay 30% to the App Store it doesn't work for SAS companies I mean I can tell you that I mean this would be like half of their gross margin or something like that it doesn't work for a lot of companies that spend a lot of money on content creation like epic which spends a lot of money in R&D to grade a game like fortnite break their models immediately
or Amazon with kind and so what happened is it used to be the case that Amazon could have a link in their app at least directing the user to go to the amazon.com website and you could buy the book there and you could circumvent the the the rake in the app and it was inconvenient for the user but at least there was a way around it then Apple banned those links then they banned the ability for the app to even
message to the user what was happening so if for example if you use the Kindle app on iOS which I do all the time you can't buy a book in it and the reason why is because Amazon doesn't want to pay the 30% rake but they can't even tell you that it just looks like it's broken functionality so those of us who know go to amazon.com through the browser and we buy the book there and
then it magically appears in the Kindle app we've all had that experience so I just think that these duopolies have to be controlled I think that it' be good if the government could figure out better ways to do it I don't think m&a is the right way to do it we've talked about this before I think that restricting anti-competitive tactics is really the way to stop it and like I said I can't speak to the the details of
epic's case but I do think they're doing the ecosystem of favor here by pushing back on these monopolies and helping to keep them under control 100% agree with you saxs in your take and I think actually other people should join them and the industry should really Force this issue because you are absolutely correct that they're boiling the Frog now they did make some cuts under a
million I think they charge 15% on the first million so they try to be nice to the smaller developers pull it up not look it's actually the larger ones too pull up the the link I just said so you'll see here Google charges um through the Play Store if you D if you want to have distribution I mean think about the Play Store as being like a retailer you make clothing you need to have a retail store that someone can go
to and buy stuff the retail store has to make money you're not going to have a retail store that's free so how does the retail store make money well they charge 98% of apps as you can see here are free because you know they they don't make any money on that but then if you start to charge subscriptions it's 15% take on automatically renewing subscriptions where it's easier the second year yeah
yeah it's easier no each year look at the second no it's for renewing so I know this because of Comm so in the first year it's for it's for renewing subscriptions subscription products so all subscriptions that have an automatic renewal feature to them are instantly at 15% and as a result you know you can think about the what is it worth to get a user to not have to enter their credit card info you know plus the credit card
fees it's like 15% is not too crazy honestly I'm just you know I'm not trying to be a super Google advocate but I'm just saying like I don't think that's too crazy and then they've got this like negotiated tier where if you are a very large app developer and you want to go and negotiate with Google they have a bis Dev team like Spotify and others get where they'll negotiate fees down and you can actually go and
like argue for better economics so they've tried to be commercial which I'm guessing is probably why Lena Khan and others haven't gone after them for Anti-Trust monopolistic Behavior because they've tried to find the the comfortable place where it's not going to be too crazy at least that's my read on what's going on on because otherwise I mean obviously folks would be all over
him you know if it really was monop the boiling of the Frog issue is the one for me because then they want to charge you now for placement in the App Store and get revenue from you there oh yeah I mean that's that's Amazon too Amazon's got that like everyone's gotten every D Toc company in the last five years has gotten obliterated their unit economics are upside down now and we've talked
about this both Google's taken out the margin but Amazon forces you to buy ads in order to get product placement yeah and then they force you to pay all the extra fees for inventory Amazon everyone way more than any of these digital app this is the perfect place for Lina con to get active I think and the settlement's super easy the entire industry should come at them in unison tons of lawsuits group lawsuits until
they allow when you turn on your Apple phone the ability to load Amazon's App Store epic's App Store whoever else wants to have an App Store that should be your right if you buy a hardware device it should be your right to load these and they shouldn't be ankled in any way and that's the other thing Android does all kinds of ankling to make make those with those popups and hey this isn't safe Etc they should have
a verified App Store program Amazon's App Store epic's app store they should be verified or something and maybe they pay 5% to have a verified App Store but yeah this is a this is going to be an ongoing issue and we'll see more of it I think so let's go on anybody else have thoughts on it no okay so in other news open aai is started to cut licensing deals if you remember we had a big
debate about this back on episode 115 in February and I was saying hey this content is owned and and the opportunity to create llms or derivative products you know is the right of the the people who make that content saak you told me I was going to get rolled over but here we are I wouldn't say I said you're going to get rolled over what I said is the ecosystem is going to figure this out
okay let's play the tape if chat GPT takes a Yelp review and a you know a cond n traveler review and they represent it based on the best content out that's out there that they've already ranked because they have that algorithm with page rank or Bings ranking engine and then they republish it and then that jeopardizes those businesses that is profoundly unfair and not what we want for society and they
are interfering with their ability to leverage their own content is profoundly unfair and those magazines and newspapers need to what's that you're steam rolled that hair there it is man is my hair worse now or then yeah your hair was cut back then I think you were like postco back then yeah much better right now look like a toue ni can you can you just show us a picture of that it looks like you're in the Common Era that was
like a like an early ad this is like the Common Era now you know that's that's a toue that's a t it does look like a t it looks like a raccoon okay J K I'll got some comments on this because I think your fluffer has has fluffed too much on the upper parts and and unflued the bottom Parts which I think mean listen don't criticize him when he was in an in between phase we all go through an inet
phase with our hair it's it's part of the process now I know why we're talking about this topic J KS because you think you it's it's a total non-story or it's I shouldn't say it's a non story let me finish let me let me finish it off the our okay so just so we know what's going on here openai announced a licensing deal with Axel Springer to bring real-time news from Politico and the
fake news from Business Insider two cha B thank you you literally sound like Alex Jones I mean Tucker thank all F news from F news that is true he is right about that I got one thing right as part of the deal Axel Springer can use chat GPT to improve their products includes all European sites this is on top of the deal that open ey did with the Associated Press but most importantly most importantly I'm gonna
throw it you in a second most importantly when chat GPT relies on these sources it'll include a summary and a link back other examples of Licensing are happening all over the industry Adobe is using stop images for theirs and stable diffusion as you know that brazenly used Gettys images are being sued so freeberg you thought this was unrealistic but here we are no I don't agree with your Framing and I
think that I think it's unrealistic for you to frame this as of validating or justifying the fact that these companies won't be able to access and utilize open data under fair use to train models so that's what's G on historically right so the open web you know we a little bit about where folks can get content from the open web you can browse the internet you can download all this content it's
all freely available it's readily available it's in it's in the open domain and then you can train models and then the models can ultimately make stuff based on all that training data what this deal is is it's actually a Content integration deal and I'll read this with the partnership chat GPT users around the world will receive summaries of selected Global News content from Axel Springer media Brands including y
yada including otherwise paid content so what chat GPT is doing is they're accessing content behind a pay wall and they're be able and and instead of training models on it they're able to fetch that data as a retrieval aspect of the chat GPT service so now you as a user want an update on hey what's going on with Donald Trump it can search not it can not just use its training data
but it can recognize that hey there's a current event news question embedded in this query and I can go fetch that current event news answer from this content that I've now paid for so it's not a training data set that's that's now being unlocked which is what the complaint was before that all the open web data was being used for training but it's behind pay wall data that can now
be fetched and integrated and I think it's more interesting because it really speaks to a new model for how the internet will work which we've talked about which is that there may be these sort of new chat interfaces that cannot just send you to another page and Link you over somewhere but can fetch data for you and present it to you in an integrated way in the response it's providing and these Services have to pay
pay for access to that so Che you know open AI it's a three-year deal they're paying tens of millions of dollars to Axel Springer to access their closed content and present it to the user so I think it's quite a bit different than you know using training data uh which is what you know the complaint was the first time around and it's more of like a really interesting front end feature for what chat GPT is becoming saak you
wanted to add to that I don't really have a lot to add to that I think fre did a great job explaining that issue I mean look I think jcal you've had a little bit of an obsession with this copyright issue and well protecting protecting rights holders I do uh believe in I don't know freeberg makes a really great point which is there's a difference between copying somebody's copywritten work
which would be a violation of copyright and using content that's available on the open web to train a model to create entirely new content and I do think that AI models should be able to use the content that's available on the web under a fair use doc do to train their models for the benefit of consumers and um I don't see a reason to try and tie that up in a bunch of copyright lawsuits if Chad GPT is
producing a plagiarized result then you may have grounds for a copyright infringement claim so what I would say is you know when you look at that fair use Doctrine I've got a lot of experience with it having done this in blogs and and other content companies you know the fourth Factor test I'm sure you're well aware of this is the effect of the use on the potential market and
the value of the work and if you look at the lawsuits that are starting to emerge it is Getty's right to then make derivative products based on their images I think we would all agree stable diffusion when they use these open web that is no excuse to use an open web crawler to avoid getting a license from the original owner of that just because you can technically do it doesn't mean
you're allowed to do it in fact the open Web projects that provide these say explicitly we do not give you the right to use this uh you have to then go read the copyright laws on each of those websites and on top of that if somebody were to steal the copyrights of other people put it on the open web which is happening all day long you still if you're building a derivative work like this you still need to go get it so it's
no excuse that I took some sight in Russia that did a bunch of copyright violation and then I indexed them for my training model so I think this is going to result free free can you shoot me in the face and let me know when this segment's okay all right so segment is now over I was about to throw it to you I mean like stop with this Naval gazing nonsense we're in inning one and nobody knows
anything and the most important thing is that this will get sorted out through trials that's where you were right Jason it's going to go to court and it's and I think we should just not opine on this stuff because it's esoteric at best and it's kind of like whatever well some of it will go to court other ones will be done in the free market market like we see here another thing you care about
this more than most people because you are a journalist and you think this going to put people out of work I am a content creator I'm also an author as you know and a podcaster and they create all kinds of content I do think that you should get permission before you leverage people's work to create div derivative products correct and actually you're starting to see this in uh Dolly and chat GPT seems to be getting ahead
of this because of all the the incoming lawsuits check this out I started asking Dolly to make me Star Wars characters of bulldogs and I said make a Jedi Bulldog it did that no problem then I asked it to make a version of this using uh and make a Darth Vader and it said I'm unable to generate images based on your request due to our content policy if you have other ideas and Concepts you'd like
to BL feel free to share so I said make me a Sith Board Cat and it basically made me Darth Vader and so it's very clear that the team over at open AI is now taking prom engineering you're like a clever prompt engineer there well yeah I got a round copyright here right and so how silly like all of this stuff is this is just a a drag coefficient on development of AI because and on users
cuz now you've got to like word your prompt exactly the right way well I think what they're doing is they know that Marvel and all the Disney characters all the Star Wars characters they're very protective of their IP Disney is going to launch their own Dolly type stable diffusion product where you can do this put yourself on a star make a Star Wars character not going be any good at this it doesn't
matter if they're good or not it's their IP and so fans can create their own artwork that's in the vein of like a Darth Vader M they can but they can't do it commercially and what chat jpt and open ey here is commercial because I pay $20 a month to chat GPT so that's what you're missing a fan of course can make a Jedi cat or whatever all right well all I know is you played this like way back video from episode 15 or something
February no no no it okay from episode 115 as if you had you guys never want then it turns out that freeberg totally blew up your case he didn't blow up my case I I will be right and continue to be right okay now let's go to something we can all we're definitely not striking this segment I liked it let's go no no no no it's spicy we like a little spicy here I didn't even have to refute you
freeberg just did it it was beautiful well I mean listen Okay you came in you thought you had the goods admit it no he's like playing this way back video from like 45 episodes ago I finally got him I finally got saxs I was finally right about something if you hadn't claimed you never used the word steamroll I would have never played the clip oh my God I have some live footage I just want to go through it and just
talk about it strike it I strike anyways yeah so guys there's this copyright thing I wanna okay hold on let me let me just reframe let me just start that again okay you know copyright issues are okay wait hold on a second hold on a second well listen there's this thing I want to talk about copyright but hold who are you doing oh these are a super NBA Live stre when you do a deal
for okay hold on when you write something and you want to get okay hold on hold hold on everybody that writes gets a chance okay hold on a second I mean if I could get up that high I would miss the dunk and still be Happ about you can't just take content he's about to steamroll okay all right thank you I strike let's keep going strike strike everything come on J Cal you teed up the way back clip of
yourself you teed up the way back clip of yourself so you brought I knew you were going to deny it and I just you brought this on for you to deny yeah but you you tried to dunk and it didn't work okay okay okay has to take the piss out of me I don't know I'm seeing a trend no don't bring up the way back Clips unless you have a clean dunk all right here we go don't bring it to the hoop and then Breck
it break it break it he had a receipt it turned out the credit card was stolen okay here that's pretty good all right here we go you know who actually deserves credit for admitting that he was wrong all we'll get to we'll get get okay Red's coming here we go great transition great transition great transition here we go Elon versus the FCC another government agency is now targeting Elon this is a little bit
complicated but let me explain on Tuesday the FCC rejected star Link's application for 900 million in subsidies for Rural Broadband starlink originally won these back in 2020 when they agreed to provide high-speed internet to 640,000 rural homes across 35 States funding would have come from the rdf rural digital opportunity fund I guess the government is paying for expanding
Broadband services in rural areas uh and Starling obviously is perfect for that it's actually the only solution for this really she can't run fiber to these locations so the FCC found that Starling quote had failed to meet its burden to be entitled to those funds and here's the quote FCC has a responsibility to be a good Steward of limited public funds funds meant to expand access to rural
Broadband not fund applicants that failed to meet basic program requirements Brendan Carr one of the fcc's Commissioners dissented from the agency's decision and he did not hold back last year this is a quote after Elon aquired Twitter President Biden gave federal agencies a green light to go after him today's decision certainly fits the Biden administration's pattern of regulatory harassment this is a decision that
cannot be explained by any objective application of law fact or policy Carl went on to explain uh how his decision was made and why it's unprecedented instead of applying the traditional FCC standards to the record evidence which would have compelled the agency to confirm star Link's $885 million warant the FCC denied it on the grounds that starlink is not providing highspeed internet service to all these locations
today as noted the fcc's Milestone does not kick in until 2025 let me toss to usak thoughts on the Biden hit squad going after e I mean I can't remember anything quite like this this is absolutely extraordinary I mean you have a sitting member of the FCC telling us that the FCC is engaging in political retaliation he sits on the board of the five commissioners of the FCC they just
canceled an $885 million contract to starlink what was that contract for to provide rural internet service starlink is the only company that has that capability today it's the only one that has that capability if you look forward a few years it is by far the best providing Broadband from space which is the best way to get into these rural areas so what did the commission do well they cherry-picked they took speed test
snapshots from two cherry-pick moments in time and so even that probably was not an accurate reflection of where starlink is today but they then said based on those snapshots that starlink would not be able to meet the standards in three years so remember the requirements that they're saying that Starling violated don't even have to be met for three years so somehow they're saying that starlink
will not get there in three years they're preemptively judging the service to meet a standard that is not even required to meet today and nobody else is even close to meeting the standard so elon's response to this was guys okay if you're going to cancel the contract for us like just save the money because the competitors that you're giving it to have even less of a service than we do
yeah so just like save the taxpayer the money but they're not doing that so this is really remarkable and what Carr said here is that the bid Administration is choosing to prioritize its political and ideological goals at the expense of connecting Americans we can should reverse course this is now part of a pattern of the federal government harassing Elon and his companies and it all stems from Biden at that press
conference saying we got to look at this guy you know like Tony Soprano yeah we got to look at this guy you know whatever um I mean it was like and so since that's a nice restaurant you got they'd be terrible if anything ever happened to it yeah J you do the I can't do it at any event so Biden says this press conference we got to look at this guy and since then they've investigated
Tesla for supposedly building a glass house which I didn't know was a crime that's amazing yeah SpaceX which is partially a defense contractor was sued by the doj because they were hiring too many Americans and didn't they weren't hiring enough refugees into sense of National Security Ro that they would surely be sued for doing if they other way and now they're they've canel a contract for SpaceX
having the best service in the space but somehow missing a goal that they're not required to meet for three years this is harassment it's transparent yeah and the question I have is do we want to live in a country where the government can engage in this kind of naked political retaliation against its critics and I have to say you know there was a there was a Time in America where you know
Nixon was roundly attacked for having this quote unquote enemies list where supposedly you know he had made a list of all his enemies and the IRS was auditing them okay we are so far beyond that point and the media isn't interested at all and no one's really interested unless you like what elon's doing but if you don't you know if you're on the opposite side of the political Spectrum as Elon you don't
care and there's nobody who's willing to say in a neutral way that political retaliation should not be part of our system I mean we we have a presidential candidate running specifically saying I am your retribution I mean this is something that has to stop across all of politics nobody should be using their political power to do any retribution against anybody they should be operating
the government efficiently in the best interest of all Americans to be honest okay so maybe I don't like that rhetoric from Trump I don't think it's helpful but what did Trump ever do that's in this league I mean everything they accuse Trump of doing the fascism the retribution all that kind of stuff seems to me the Biden Administration is doing here yeah well I mean he says he's going to do it he says the first thing he's
going to do is go after journalists and do you think Trump did no retribution when he was in office I mean I have to look through every single issue heever done one it's interesting I mean one doesn't come off the top of my head I I'm trying to remember if he ever said I'm G to go after this person or that person I don't remember an instance of him saying he said lock her up that was and he never did it Trump was all
talk in this respect he didn't yes this is what Peter teal said like you know his quote about him like just look at his actions not at what he says he he saber rattles and he says he's going to do retribution against everybody but you know then he doesn't so even talking about Trump in this context is a deflection jcal the action is being taken by the Biden Administration they've now weaponized
multiple federal agencies to go after Elon on these cases that seem transparently trumped up a glass house not hiring enough refugees to National Security roles canceling a contract for the for starlink which is by far the best rural internet service how do you even justify it these cases on their face I'm Not Jus I'm 100% I'm in 100% agreement you think there's this is politically motivated harassment of Elon
by the Biden Administration 100% he said it he said it and he didn't invite him to the eveve summit so you just take Biden at his actions if you don't invite B if you don't invite Elon to the EV Summit it's obvious that he's got it in for this guy and now it's obvious he's told people to you know investigate him and harass him it's obvious so why do you think they don't like him why do you
think Biden doesn't like him why doesn't Biden like him because he's nonunion it's obvious that's that's the beginning and end of it I mean I'm sure the freedom of speech things and you know Twitter doesn't help but this predates Biden is a union guy and he will not have non-union people he will not support nonunion people he is bought and sold by the Unions that's 100% And Elon
said that that may be how it started but I think you're underrating the Free Speech aspect oh I I I said it could have to do with that but it's definitely that's the number one issue and more importantly s more importantly you're saying enabling dissenting voices strongly desent absolutely I think I think that from the get-go they have sought to exercise control over the Twitter formerly Twitter now xplatform
because it is the Town Square for political speech sueded they succeeded the FBI everybody they had total control of it until Elon somehow bought the company which was not in their plans frankly that was just a fluke I mean that was something that Elon did out of the blue because he cares a lot about free speech and he opened up the Twitter jails and you know stopped the censorship and opened up the Twitter
files and we found out that this was not just a private company acting on its own it was being directed or encouraged by they giving TW they were giving him list of tweets saying hey these tweets probably violate your terms service yeah you know and the FBI acting as the quote unquote belly button of the whole federal government directing all these takeown requests totally on americ I
think that the pattern of actions more than anything mandates that Biden and his team actually have to address publicly why it is not retribution the absence of doing that the absence of doing that at this point is going to be more damaging to them than just letting things go on and claiming down the road hey this is all part of the normal course of business now the guy do why why why would they address it why do
they have to address it the media doesn't hold him accountable the media doesn't report it the media protect like the Twitter files never even happened remember that zero mainstream media coverage of the Twitter files zero mainstream media coverage of these retaliatory lawsuits why would the B Administration need to explain itself why would they even talk about it the fix is in well I mean now the question
is being I think the mainstream media are stenographers for one side of the political Spectrum which is precisely the reason did you guys on it's precisely the reason why they're so upset with Elon with opening up free speech on Twitter cuz they had total control of the public discourse until he did that did you see that thing this morning where somebody called out the New York Times for selectively editing
what Hunter Biden said to make it more broad broad did you see that Jason yeah they he basically said my father has not financially been involved in my businesses and the New York Times took out the word financially to make it more broad to say he's not been involved in my business obviously was involved in his business did really yeah there's a clip where they show the article and
they show and then they show his interview and the interview is very clear he says it but the New York Times headline omits the word and doesn't doesn't put it in a bracket so that it shows that it was edited it shows that that was the quote can you pull it up do you have do you have that thing so crazy let me find it that's crazy I mean I would like to think there's a possibility this was a mistake but man
it's pretty bad I mean this is really bad by the New York Times and they got to figure out who actually took that word out because it's pretty clear Biden was very involved in Hunter businesses and that's why he put that word financially in there because he was on I think he's on all the documents as being part of it and he's in the emails so he was the brand J ah there it is thank you Nick
you're very good at finding these things there okay so if you look on the left that's the article in the New York Times and it's clear that that was the quote and then if you play it on the right it's actually what he said let me State as clear as I can my father was not financially involved in my business wow yeah and then quote says let me stay as clear as I can my father was not involved in my
business now if in journalism you could put an ellipsis after involved you know three dots and but why would you do that this is like breaking very basic journalistic standards this is my point there's like a format right when you edit out a word like that yeah you would only edit out a word if it was superflous and you wanted to have a tighter quote you know if the person said M ah you can take that out and if
you were taking out a long quote you put three dots and then you it would show that you cut the quote there was something in between and then you went to that in the case of something this important you would never take out a keyword like that that this is just journalism 101 so I mean if this happens man it is it's the key word in the sentence by the way it's the key word in
the sentence it is it's the key word in the sentence so if the person took it out man who took it out and this is the problem with the New York Times is they bury their Corrections they need to and this is back to accountability you're saying freeberg the Biden Administration has to explain why they excluded Elon from the EV Summits and the New York Times needs to explain why they did this or else you
know the mind wanders that there's some conspiracy going on here or targeting and I wonder if they changed it well here's the live story is it changed in the story did they they change it yet Luke Broadwater I mean Luke Broadwater is that a name from Central Casting that's not a real name is it is it I don't know oh it looks like they posted a correction oh here we go correction an earlier version of this article
misquoted Hunter B you said my father was not Financial was not my father was so the only room I have here is if the person was live transcribing it maybe and they left it out but this is too important to not have a fact Checker go through it and to have to get called out on it to fix it it just shows how far the this is the equivalent though J C putting on the front page I did not kill
that person and then a day later it buried in page 812 I actually did kill that person I mean if you the correction at the bottom of the story is good everybody sees the front page very very few people you would agree with me very very few people see the correction in the old days they would put the correction on like A2 A3 of the paper and it would be small and be at the bottom in the digital age you put the
correction at the bottom of the article so it's a little bit better but the truth is most people don't go to the bottom of the article so there's an argument to put Corrections at the top of the article but journalists don't want to admit when they're wrong I think the I saw I saw a list of all of the organizations investigating Elon and what was surprising was how broad some of these
organizations felt that they had a mandate to look into him so there was like I I want to say Nick maybe you can find this on Twitter but they had a list of them and it was like the Bureau of Land Management had an investigation I mean it just makes no sense like it just does not smell Right In fairness Elon involved in many many very important projects so there would be a lot of
agencies that speaks to overregulation and then you have to drill down and say okay when are they actually targeting him and so that's going to be a lot of part fish and wildlife you know Health and Human housing I mean it's a list goes on you might some he fished in the wrong Pond or what what's no I think my understanding of it is you know at Star base there's some estuaries or something and there was a lot of estu
I mean yes we we protect animals and whatever this is something that happens all over the the country where and California is actually probably the leader in this but I think some crabs might have got burned not in a barbecue but by the rocket I mean literally that and then this is this this speaks to what risk are we willing to take to make progress as Humanity freeberg remember we had this discussion about
self-driving cars like if getting to Mars and being multiplanetary kills some crabs I think we should be okay with that in fact if it decimated I mean it's not decimated but let's just say 100 square miles got decimated by getting to Mars on planet Earth well you'd make that trade-off right yeah it's a I mean this is the same standard I think I feel around if there's a mouse infestation in my house
I'm not going to let the mice live in my house even though I'm completely ethically against killing animals killing animals to eat when I have other options I'm against and I think animal testing and medical applications I have a totally different standard than I think what is standard in the market today so for me it's like a a pretty sensitive topic because my ethics are don't kill animals unless
absolutely necessary and the question is what is necess what is the definition of necessary and so these sorts of points that you're making about you know if it gets all humans to Mars that might be a trade-off worth making for some crabs I don't you know it's like hard oning the analogy here are you saying that elon's the mouse the rocket may have killed the mouse The Regulators own the house wait
what's the who's the mouse and who's the house the house is the rocket ship clearly the think the mouse in the house right yeah yeah let's pull up this quote from Brendan car as the FCC commissioner I thought this was amazing this list is incredible this is the FCC commissioner he said he said the doj FAA FTC nlrb sdny and an F WS I guess it's fish and wildlife have all taken action the FCC now joins them man that's incredible
yeah it's a little bit nuts look at that Biden quote where I didn't actually know about the second part I knew about the first part where he says we got to take a look at this guy but then he was asked how President Biden responded there's a lot of ways a lot you you know there's a lot of ways there's a lot of ways to get to somebody I can get to you you might be able to get to me I might be able to
get to you and uh you know maybe you watch your back you know you know what else Biden said there's a lot of ways is when he was talking about the the northstream pipeline and he said that pipeline's not going to move forward and then they said yeah but the Press said to him yeah but that's that's like a German Russian project like how what's your involved how you do he said we got
ways there a lot of ways we got ways wow ouch okay so on the Counterpoint obviously Elon has several pretty sprawling businesses he has selfing cars right and they push right they push the envelope on you know where there's an existing regulatory framework same with going to Mars right same with transmitting internet services Wireless Communications like you know there is a regulatory framework for all of these
businesses and he's on the bleeding edge and typically beyond the framework to some degree so I think it's like worth acknowledging at least that there's a a necessity of scrutiny and involvement in these agencies given that they do have regulatory Authority and and responsibility over these various businesses and he's well beyond where anyone else is in each of them so I just
want to acknowledge that hold on let me respond to that yeah he's well beyond where other people are in his industry in terms of innovation he's the first to acknowledge because I've heard him say this many times that he's in highly regulated Industries and they've got you know massive compliance programs at Tesla and SpaceX and all these different companies what we're judging these Regulatory Agencies on is not that
there's a need to regulate elon's companies within the framework of their Industries but rather the specific actions that that are being brought remember dojj suing SpaceX for not hiring enough refugees right Tesla being sued on this Glass House business whatever that is and now those those are voluntary actions in a FCC canceling a contract yeah three years speak volumes they actually exactly three years before
the they even need to judge that contract whether that contract's been met 100% happened uh this week which I think is important along this vein is that the IRS is in charge of making sure that you can claim the $7,500 EV tax credit for cars and a lot of us that have been looking at this issue the way that they break the EV tax credit is in half and part of it is about where the
material is sourced and part of it has to do with the total sum of certain components of the car and how much of those are made in the US Etc okay and it was presume just based on the trend that Tesla would lose half the credit keep half the credit and in a bit of a surprising move they the IRS came out and said the whole thing we're not going to acknowledge anymore so Tesla had to go and put on the website that the credit
ends as of December 31st so I would add the IRS to this to this list as well that's so crazy it's all got to be investigated I like freeberg suggestion that prove to us that you're not doing this at this point because it's pretty clear that it is happening and it's good luck luck them to do that just on the um on that EV subsidy you know one of the perverse things about this is that the
administration is putting the thumb on the scales against Elon in favor of these less Innovative competitors who have worse products so like Elon said if you want to cancel our contract for starlink to provide this rural broadband that's fine to save taxpayers the money but by all means don't then give the money to these other services I can't deliver what's the point of that and
same thing on the electric cars I mean the subsid is going to these other car companies that make worse products yeah totally this is the key point the the fact is all of those people who just had their Starling canceled through the government I guarantee you they will buy Starling because it's the best product so irony of ironies they're just going to go spend 60 70 80 bucks a month to put their own starlinks in like
everybody else around the world who lives rurally I have Starling one more thing to add they under pressure from regulator they announced a recall on Tuesday of 2 million cars to to fix some of the autopilot software yeah but that's an overthe a update so the Press went crazy about that right no no no what I'm saying is if you read the if you read the article that overthe a update is specifically because of again
how it's written regulatory pressure to change how the software behaves some tuning in some edge cases my point is that one could guess that there is an attempt here to kind of do the death by a Thousand Cuts approach right the the drip drip water torture of just like a thing over here a thing over here a thing over here a thing over here eventually companies can get distracted
and misfire and so the question I do think is like you know does it make us better off if all of these little ticky tacky footfalls are enforced by the government I think I think we all know what the answer is no we have an example that Microsoft got so distracted by their cases that the company went sideways for a decade well but that I mean I think there was a lot of good basis for that particular anti
that was an antitrust case and Microsoft clearly had a monopoly just on the recall thing I did see that story at the top of drudge or whatever last week whereas it said every Tesla has to be recalled and when I see the word recall yes I think that means you got to bring it to the dealership and get like some part swapped out but that's not what happened no well what's so interesting
is they refuse in these articles I can show you the New York Times version of it they refused to write that it's actually an OTA update breaking news I don't know if you guys saw this but a billion five iPhones were just recalled for the 17.2 update so everybody's gonna have to bring their iPhones in 1.5 billion iPhones Rec call I got to bring it to the store yeah you got to bring it
to the store and then they give you this new journal app I don't know if you got it in the latest update but Apple made a journaling app so that you can have more acity yeah that's the recall yeah it's Total Recall all right listen now we keep the red meat going saxs is cooking with oil Alex Jones the controversial conspiracy commentator of Infowars Fame is back on Twitter after Elon did a poll
he got two million people to respond asking if he should be reinstated 70% said yes of course Jones encouraged his fans to vote in this poll so I'm not sure how scientific it is for background Twitter permanently banned Jones in 2018 after accusing him of posting direct threats of violence and hate speech he had already received bans from Apple Facebook and YouTube he's pretty much the the number one person to be
deplatformed as you know Jones was ordered to pay $1.5 billion to the families of eight Sandy Hook victims this is across two cases in Texas and Connecticut and here is Jones in his own words on the Sandy Hook parents Sandy Hook it's got inside job written all over it Sandy Hook is a synthetic completely fake with actors in my view manufactured I couldn't believe it at first the new town kids oh they
take them put them in our face tell us their names who they were I heard an ad this morning on the radio Bloomberg paid for locally going I dropped Billy off and watched him go around the corner and he never came back all because of the guns won't you just turn your guns in for my son why'd you do it to him gun owners forgive my language but that guy okay there it is folks guy we have a
that guy but does that censor him unfortunately not but I absolutely cannot stand that that is just like heart-wrenching like evil awful spewing out of his mouth and he still you know should have a right to speak but man that guy I was never a big crier part of it was just my defense mechanism and I remember Sandy Hook because I had just become a parent I had I think kids by that point and I was uncontrollably crying
when that happened and it was the first time I realized how you change as a parent and you just develop this empathy and then you realize how precious kids lives are and I've become more and more of a crier as my kids have grown older and I really appreciate that what my kids have done for me so when I hear him talk like that I yes he has a right to say what he wants but he is a complete piece of yeah okay
so let's get into this very difficult question and sax I don't want to force you to defend you know one of those horrible humans I think we can all agree well my my position is pretty similar to what the other guys said which is what he said was odious however that doesn't necessarily mean he should be censored we have standards we have First Amendment standards around this AG with
that I agree with that so first of all let me back up I mean I didn't even really know who Alex was I mean I only knew him because of the controversy I've never actually listened to a show I'm not really interested in what he has to say I do think that if you're going to play this clip of his mistake going back many years you should supplement it by playing a clip of what he says now and
what he says now is he's apologized he's admitted he made a mistake he basically bought into a conspiracy theory by it wasn't just him saying it apparently he had some people on the show who I don't know if they were reported experts or what but they were making a case that the whole Sandy Hook thing was a hoax and it was being done to basically you know get people's guns I mean look it's nutty stuff I'm not defending it in any
way but he explained that he bought into that into that theory or hoax or whatever and he thinks it's a terrible mistake and he's apologized for it and the question is are you going to have a lifetime ban on somebody for saying things that were wrong and odious when they have now apologized and for me it's not about Alex Jones it's about censorship remember when this case happened way
back in 2018 it was really hard to defend keeping this guy on the platform in light of what he had said and done because everyone's reacting very emotionally to it and it was people like Defenders of free speech like Len Greenwald who said that listen if you take Alex Jones out now if you have a permanent ban it will basically be a slippery slope and it will create a precedent and other people will get
banned and sure enough just two years later Twitter was Banning people like Jay boria Stanford doctor for saying dissonant things about covid that turned out to be completely correct remember we authored the great barington declaration talking about how lockdowns wouldn't work and so on and so even within two years of this decision around Alex Jones the censorship was totally out of control and so I think the people who us
that Alex Jones would become a slippery slope ended up being completely correct to me that's the symbolism of the restoration of Alex Jones's account it's not endorsing what he did it's not saying that what he said wasn't odious I mean look again I have zero interest in even listening to the guy but the point is that free speech does require us to put up with people who are wrong people
who are even hateful sometimes and stating misinformation people who put out misinformation that's what Free Speech requires us to do and if you want a different standard it's going to become a precedent for a lot of censorship that you don't like I agree with sax the the only place where I disagree with saxs is on Twitter not having a right to do this as a private Enterprise I think Twitter
had a decision to make on what kind of editorialization they wanted to do with the content on their platform on their product and they made a choice I don't think that I think it was the wrong choice personally and we've talked about this in the past I think you know it's it's great that elon's making a different choice and Catering to a you know a different audience perhaps with a different
product that has more open speech but that's not you know a government free speech mandate that's a private Enterprise mandate and I do believe in the right to free speech I think it's a little bit ironic to say that it's inappropriate when someone says something that is misinformation because it's incorrect or unprovable when we have an entire group of people that believe in something called religion and
much of religion is based on this concept of faith and belief without necessarily hard proof or evidence and we allow religion religious speech you know in in many forums without saying hey that's misinformation or hey it's not true or hey it doesn't meet the standards of X or Y or Z's scientific assessment or understanding and so I think it's just worth acknowledging that
this whole concept that someone has to ultimately be the police of the truth and the police of fact and the police of information is going to lead to a bad place and I'd rather have more free speech with people saying misinformation and saying awful putrid things than one where a few people get to decide what everyone gets to hear so as much as I absolutely despise this guy you you may
be right that Twitter as a private company had the the right as our laws currently exist to decide who they were going to suspend and ban from the site however once that censorship power was created it attracted powerful entities from our government who wanted to co-opt and use that power that's what we saw in the Twitter files with the ad FBI agent sending takedown requests that's what happens is when you create the
censorship power people will abuse it it people abuse it but but more to the point it's such a tempting power to use by people in Authority right it's like the ring of power those tools that Twitter created it's like they released a pheromone or something that attracted all these powerful shadowy actors from the federal government in the FBI and all these agencies and so that that is why I think it's just very dangerous for
even private companies to create these censorship regimes is that they can be co-opted and and abused being co-opted and abused is the issue I don't think that the issue is their choice in what kind of content they want to put out you can go to the Netflix kids version of Netflix and kids they they control what content is on Netflix and they provide a different version than what they provide
to adults and I think like editorializing the content platform that you're making available whether it's user generated or paid for or whatever is a totally reasonable like approach to running a business a Content business the the point you're making is the right one which is the point at which you allow government agencies to intervene and have control and manipulation over private citizens user generated content
is where I think it crossed the line so I I don't disagree with you on that point may I ask to Qui clarifying questions here because I'm I'm curious how you would handle this if you were the CEO of X forly known as Twitter would you have reinstated Alex Jones yes or no and then number two if Alex Jones then as a new member of the community who's been reinstated and forgiven because he
apologized and then he did this again this exact same thing again with another school shooting with parents would you remove him for the platform I don't know that these are yes or no questions what I would say is that I've written what I think should be a speech policy for social media Platforms in a blog post I did several years ago and what I said is that I would take first amendment case
law and operationalize it for social media platforms there are nine categories of speech that the Supreme Court has said are not protected speech because they're dangerous in some way so for example incitement to violence is one of them you know harassment is one of them so I would use this clearly falls under those two well people his fans went and knocked on the doors his fans did his
fans did so as I understand the whole Sandy Hook thing what happened is he said the whole thing was a hoax that obviously wasn't true he paid a huge price for that his fans then some of his crazy fans went and harassed the parents which obviously is not right but according to him he didn't and I I don't know that anyone's shown that he did that I don't think he encouraged that it just happened by
got somech fans well of course he does it's a conspiracy show so knowing it's a conspiracy show knowing that incitement to violence is one of your criteria if his fans after him saying it's fake then went to the house knocked on the door and asked the parent to see little suie because you know she's alive would you kick him off the platform listen the barington Declaration on the barington Declaration was declared to be
a conspiracy show the idea that Co originated in a lab was considered a conspiracy show I don't think you can prejudge in advance that a show is quote unquote dangerous factually wrong conspiracies as I understand it again I haven't watched the show but I did watch a clip by Joe Rogan Who provided something of a character reference for Alex Jones I don't know if Nick can find that and play that it was actually quite
good what Rogan said is look I've known Alex Jones for like 30 years he's had problems with alcohol abuse substance abuse whatever he's had um mental health issues that he's acknowledged and sometimes he goes off the rails at the same time he's also been way ahead of the curve on certain things for example he told me about the Epstein Island like 10 years before the story broke I don't
know how he figured that out but somehow he did now that was a conspiracy theory until it was proven true and it probably would have been a good thing for the public if that story had come out a lot sooner so that it could have been shut down a lot sooner so I don't think you can just judge an advance that somebody's a conspiracy theorist and basically blackball them from the internet one other data point I
want to bring up is that this is something that Elon mentioned is that he looked at the Twitter tools the admin tools to see to look at Alex Jones's account and the third strike he received that that caused him to be banned from the Twitter platform by the former management was he actually insulted a reporter which was a very borderline case so you know the things that you're
saying that he was banned for weren't even the reason he was banned yeah no that's true I I think yeah so that's why I was framing it to you as you know and this is the issue that I think it maybe what some people are missing here a mentally ill person like himself if he's admitted to mental illness and substance abuse when they do this real when they when they go on these TI rides or they
go off their meds or whatever it is or they're just evil and they do this for Ratings to make money it starts to cause real world harm people start showing up on these people uh doorsteps and so then are you going to wait 10 years for the courts to do this $ 1.5 billion judgment and then make the decision while real world harm is occurring and if you own the platform my belief is you have a
higher standard obviously believe in freedom of speech he can make his own website but if you own the platform and the platform enables him to reach a large number of people and those people are being harmed and parents' doors are being knocked on demanding to see their children because Alex Jones said that child is still alive and they're trying to take our guns and he knows his fans
are crazy there's responsibility that comes from this and there's responsibility that comes with owning a platform like this I know elon's going full freedom of speech but I would be very careful about this Steve scalise the house Republican whip was shot by a crazy Bernie Sanders supporter does that blame go to Bernie Sanders I think you have to separate there is hold on there there is a legal standard for incitement
right okay there's a legal standard for judging that you're saying that these crazy people were incited but there is actually a legal way of determining that I don't think that's been proven I would do a common sense one which is do we see real world happening I would just use common sense do we see real world happening okay real world is happening we own the platform we need to stop this
which is what happened that's a judgment standard right yeah I would I would make the Judgment if I was the CEO I'd make the judgment and I would make the Judgment based on you know the courts are going to take years to to adjudicate this and it's my platform I don't want this happening I would operationalize a Content moderation policy based on first M case law you're right that you can't always wait for the
courts to adjudicate it there's going to be judgment calls I would have been fine I think with the suspension of Alex Jones in that context because it does seem pretty egreg just and need to apologize for it the question is whether there should be Lifetime banss and I'm pretty much I think I'm against lifetime banss I'm okay with timeouts I'm okay with suspensions for egregious behavior when somebody has apologized
they've I mean had to pay I mean I think he's been bankrupt he's had to pay all these fines I think he's paid his price to society so to speak and he's admitted he was wrong the question is do you still have the lifetime ban it seems to me he's acknowledged this mistake if he does something like this again then you can suspend him maybe you do the ban but I do believe in giving people Second
Chances and I'm just sort of viscerally against lifetime Banning people I don't like the standard of what can be deemed dangerous Speech cuz I think that as saak said there's a clear way to measure whether someone's inciting violence or inciting harm versus saying speech that can be deemed dangerous in some contexts and then not be deemed dangerous after the fact covid vaccine
conversations are the perfect example telling people that there's health risks associated with taking a vaccine uh in the period when everyone was worried about a pandemic killing us all was deemed too dangerous to allow and after the fact it wasn't dangerous because there were suddenly clear evidence that there may be some costs and benefits associated with the vaccines and so I really don't like this standard of
dangerous speech in fact I think that the biggest changes that are necessary in society initially start as dangerous speech and then they eventually become true and then they become a standard and then things change my my repeated calls for reduction in fiscal spending at the federal level and lack of accountability in fiscal spending at the federal level by some measure could be deemed
dangerous speech and an incitement against the government but really my point is to call out the importance of this like issue and after the fact it I may be right I may be wrong and I need to be able to say that I think it's critically important to say those sorts of things and I think that other people in their own domains will find other things that are critically important to say and that would be deemed by some
standard to be dangerous at the time so as much as I have great disdain for you know certain people and certain things that they may say I do think that what might be deemed dangerous speech is a critical element of the the kind of progressivism that's allowed the United States to prosper I think it was dangerous speech to promulgate the false conspiracy theory that Trump was an agent of Putin I mean that was in the
steel dossier they basically said that Putin had compromat.ru in the white house that was a private document right that wasn't like a public was absolutely leaked during the campaign you're making my point exactly it's leaked right so there's like a private document by somebody I but then it was printed by BuzzFeed and then once it was in the Echo chamber it was endlessly repeated
by the mainstream media so the idea that like only people like Alex Jones promote conspiracy theories the mainstream media promotes a lot of conspiracy theories and some of those theories if acted upon by crazy people would be just as dangerous as the things that Alex Jones has said yeah we're in hypothetical end but actually I think you and I are not too far apart you wanting to take these
harms and operationalize them is sort of what I'm saying and in each of these cases it's a judgment call and this is where I think you know I in in many ways I'm proud of what Elon is doing and saying like freedom of speech is an absolute thing and that's what the platform is going to be his right to do it it's his platform and so I'm fine with that I would I would do something different if it was my platform
everybody's different you know everybody can can take their stance I would have some basic Humanity as my stance and I I would be willing to give up a little freedom of speech in my restaurant in in my Cafe in order to have it be more delightful for everybody there I wouldn't go as far as Banning people talking about covid but yeah if somebody was trying to claim that parents have
murdered children were liars and actors that would be fine for me to say yeah no good um and then of course there's Kanye so you know Elon ban Kanye that was under his realm and and this is what Kanye said and I think this falls into speech and real world harm I'm a bit sleepy tonight but when I wake up I'm going death death Con 3 on Jewish people the funny thing is I actually can't be
anti-semitic because black people are actually Jew also you guys have toy with me and tried to blackball anyone whoever opposes your agenda so when you see this tweet would you have banned him sax or is that ban I might have given him a timeout I think his family wanted him to get a timeout because he was having an episode I certainly wouldn't give him a lifetime ban give him a year or
something look I don't really know this Jones guy I certainly don't know him in person I don't even listen to him it's not a show I'm interested in even now I only know conspiracy theory I like knowing the truth I like hearing facts and I don't believe that factional information like the lab leak Theory should be censored by labeling it a conspiracy theory yeah for example but what I would say about Alex Jones is
there is some Humanity in allowing him a forum to apologize for what he did and acknowledge his mistake and explain why he thought what he did and why he was wrong and that's what he did on X and I went on the Twitter spaces and I asked him a follow-up question which he wouldn't answer I said how have you changed your behavior yeah but honestly Jing he wouldn't answer it you came
bounding in in the last five minutes asking him a bunch of questions about what he did when it had already been covered at the top of the Pod and I listened to it and he had not answered the question how is your behavior changed and so he doesn't want to talk to he spent the first half hour Rel litigating Sandy Hook and you weren't aware of that want go over it again 10 minutes but he he won't answer questions
on how he would change his behavior and so I think that's one of the things I would want to see from him how have you changed your behavior and how you you know do shows and I don't think he's answered that question anyway we're going to disagree on this one any final thoughts jamat as we wrap here on this on this issue the Free Speech litmus test is is very simple it's this exact thing it's
when the person that you like says the thing that you find very displeasing what do you do and I am a free speech absolutist on this I just think it's a very slippery slope and I don't think we're very capable of making these delineations and so I agree the right solution are timeouts but lifetime bands I think again go down this path where human judgment gets involved and then it's about the person in charge and then it
becomes a power play and then it eventually always gets corrupted so I can hold two thoughts in my head one Alex Jones should be able to say what he thinks and two it was disgusting and he should be ashamed of what he said yeah you know the band's doubling every time is probably a good precedent as well so I mean we should do it like we do at our proger game the fines go up
yeah phone penalty D phone penalty doubles exponential back off I mean you're gonna you're gonna put your phone down and play the goddamn game if it gets to 800 or 1,600 because that stings a little bit so there it is yeah it totally does but maybe that's the right solution Jason like you have a finding mechanism somehow and it just like it increases and so there's a financial penalty of nothing else as
well as a timeout when you violate these laws at least that's a scalable way to yeah solve the problem in a way that's hard to corrupt and game but if it goes down to the person to an individual or a group of people's judgments as we saw with the previous management of Twitter I think it's going to be a very difficult problem I don't think that those were bad people but I think that they were LED
astray yeah I mean Nick do you have that clip from Rogan cuz when I listen to this clip from Rogan it did have an impact on what I thought because it theyve friends for like 20 years yeah it does show the human complexity and again you're judging him based on the worst thing he ever did and Rogan presents a more balanced Viewpoint about this guy again I have no dog in this hunt I don't really care about Alex
Jones but I'm just saying that if we're going to sit in Judgment of people I think maybe we should have a more balanced view cuz I mean it does bias the conversation to play the clip of the worst thing he ever did let let's play Rogan for a second I think it's interesting look at the way people look at Alex Jones now because Alex Jones has been on my podcast a few times the people that have watched those
podcasts think he's hilarious and they think that he definitely fed up with that whole Sandy Hook thing um but he's right more than he's wrong and he's not an evil guy he's just a guy who's had some psychotic breaks in his life he's had some genuine mental health issues that he's addressed he's had some serious bouts of alcoholism some serious bouts of you know substance abuse and they've contributed to some very poor
thinking but if you know the guy if you get to know him like I have I've known him for more than 20 years and if you know him on podcast you realize like he is genuinely trying to unearth some things that are genuinely disturbing for most people like this is a guy that was telling me about Epstein's uh Island decade ago at least yeah I mean this platforming mentally ill people during an episode is a whole another can
of worms I mean I told this to Lex Reedman when he had Kanye on during that episode I said I think it's a very bad idea to spend two hours with somebody who's having an episode and sure enough what did he do more anti-semitic Insanity on his podcast and I just told him Lex like leave the guy alone it's not worth it let him get help look I think I think you have a point there but
um you know that that would be an argument for a temporary suspension not a ban in my opinion yeah all right sax in other news something insane has happened on the Internet it's never happened before but somebody has apologize for getting something wrong this is breaking news we're in year 34 of the internet and somebody says they is it my wife is it my wife did she she she's never gotten anything wrong I've
listen I've been there for this whole relationship she has been 100 out of 100 times correct on frustrating it's so frustrating I mean if she makes a mistake we'll know but it hasn't happened yet actually paradoxically same with my wife she's been right for 22 years no my wife has been wrong four times and I've gotten three on voice memo I tape them I pull out the phone and I'm like hold on I
need you to say it again yeah so I've gotten three on voiced but it's because it's been only three did those three have something to do with deciding to marry you or to move in with you and make children and start a life together it's so frustrating how can one person be so wrong I.E me all the time well I mean at least your self aware everybody loves self-aware CH Cham it is God a new
trend in the world but yes Nim TB publicly admitted we're going to pull it up here sax here we go he publicly admitted that techno watermelon that's your name sax that was his insult I don't really understand the insult I never understood it either I think he's saying your head is the size of a watermelon and that you're involved in technology that's my was my interpretation I don't think you have a
melon head or does it mean like I'm green on the outside and red on the inside or something like somehow I'm supporting communism or I don't I don't really understand it but that has come up um well listen it's better than mine I'm a psychotic ignoramus so he you know he hasn't retracted that for some reason not yet not yet but I we'll have at some point I'm sure he will uh but here it is folks well he just said I can see that
David saaks is correct about the relative strength of the parties in the Ukraine war and I was wrong all caps Russia is not as weak as it seemed it has staying power this means the settlement is likely outcome anyway um it's so rare on the internet for anyone to admit they were wrong and what they usually do is do memory hole it which is why you know I always like to produce receipts I only
do that for the people who strongly denounce me about something and then I end up being right they never con see it's not just about the fact that I was right it's about the fact that they attacked me personally and they never come back and apologize or or correct the record and TB did that so kudos to him I mean I admit when I read this I was like you know like a saor yeah I'm like
okay what's the gotcha this can't be happening wa for it follow twet I thought a trap door was going to open under my feet I thought a cartoon piano was going to fall on my head I just I thought this can't be it and but no that was it so well there it is uh Kudos by the way just I mean the reason why I understood what was going to happen in this you know counter offensive and why the war is not going
to go as well as people thought it's not because I purport to be some sort of Ukraine expert or Foreign Affairs expert I mainly just spent the time to figure out who the real experts were and the real experts are never the people who the media tells you you actually have to spend the time to look at people's track records what they said in the past did it come true or not you know it's it's
basically a falsifiability standard look at what they predicted look at what actually happened and you can figure out who the real experts are and that's what I did in the case of Ukraine it was possible to figure out who are the foreign policy Scholars who got this right who are the military bloggers who are accurately reporting information and who are the ones who are basically
putting out propaganda if you spend the time to do that on virtually any issue you can effectively become an expert it's a great Point SX really good point yeah well you have to you have to find your own process for finding the truth today because I don't think you can trust the journalists out there to do it def 100% And and by the way as a VC people say well what does the VC think you know in a way like what VCS do is
when you get interested in a topic you kind of go deep you try to assimilate a lot of information you try to figure out who are the real experts in the space so that those are the people I should listen to and then you develop a take it's not the worst skill set in the world for doing a pod or um tweeting out hot takes on on Twitter again I'm not saying I'm an expert I'm just somebody
who is independent-minded enough to get to the bottom of an issue without dis relying on what I'm supposed to believe and I just try to figure out who the real experts are all right producer Nick are you there you did a tweet about questions that people might want to have to ask the besties here as we wrap up this episode we'll take two your two favorite questions producer thoughts on
the Harvard board standing behind president gay despite her transgressions okay that's a good question that's that's a good one for Jamal here's what I'll say I think that the Harvard board was probably in a really difficult position in the following way you know when you hire somebody and you realize that that person has some faults you have three choices right one is to fire them two is to be unequivocal in
their support and three is to basically give a milk toast cya kind of a statement to give yourself time the reason why I think that President gay wasn't fired was probably because the board for whatever reason didn't want to seem like they were cow to to Bill Amman and all the other people that were asking for her resignation but what they didn't do is equally important they may not have fired her but what they also didn't do
was come out with an unequivocal statement of support I think it was kind of a little bit wishy-washy and acknowledging her mistakes which seems to be a setup to allow her to basically make a couple more mistakes so that then they can fire her and they can all seem like they did the right thing so I suspect that that's what happens she probably won't be in that job in a year from now or you know
she kind of muddles along and in two or three years she quote unquote retires to spend more time with her family anyone else want to get it on this sex yeah I mean I think this University presidents debate has been a little bit of a roar shock test and I've seen people that I generally agree with fall into one of two camps some see it as a free speech issue other people see it as a kind of woke double standards or Dei
issue I think for those who see as a free speech issue they're emphasizing the motivations of people like Elise stonic the person who asked the university presidents the question in saying when she said basically the the question was does your code of conduct allow calls for genocide of juice and their argument is that's a loaded question because there is not an epidemic on campus of people calling for
genocide of Jews and so this is basically all kind of an invented hysteria and the purpose of it is to suppress debate about this Israel Hamas war in Gaza and it's designed to expand campus speech codes so that it's harder for Palestinian supporters to protest in favor of their cause so one way of looking at it my view on that is if it ends up being the case that campus speech codes get expanded in that way
that'd be a bad thing I don't think we need to restrict speech on campus so I agree with them on that point however there is a different way of looking at this which is the motivations of the University presidents in answering that question and yes it was a loaded question but they flubbed the answer and the question is why because as we talked about last week if they were asked about
calls for the murder of any other group a racial group or trans people something like that Asian again I don't think their answer would have been the same and I do think that that comes back to the fact that they have a preconceived notion of which groups deserve protection and which ones don't and that is a double standard and I think anything we can do to get rid of that poisonous ideology that wants to treat
people differently on campus I think is a good thing and so I support what bill akman is doing on that basis but if Bill akman goes too far and demands restrictions on the ability of students to protest then I think it would be a bad thing and that's going too far so this would be a great thing to ask him like what his motivations are that you know if he comes on the Pod the thing
that's crazy is that just the crazy hypocrisy like these are the same people who were firing people or not letting them speak on campus if they had a you know a microaggression where they didn't they missed gendered somebody or they used a different pronoun or they had a different feeling about what defines a woman versus a man or you know gender differences whatever their massive
intolerance and the crazy hypocrisy which you're alluding to here Sachs is the thing that I think has broken everybody's brain like this is bizarre and the DI stuff is a road to nowhere I tweeted today about the absolute uh grift that was going on in Tech not long ago uh which was call out a company Venture firm whatever it is for their Dei stats then quietly them after you've done this Brig ading of them and say hey
we can solve your problem hire us as consultants and speakers to come in and fix your Dei and tell you what you've done wrong and then publicly come out and I saw this happen publicly come out and then tell the same group hey this person's now an ally rinse and repeat it was a crazy grift and it's all coming out now and there's a yeah that that bill akman thing j that you retweeted is
crazy that story yeah so we could just go down this Rabbit Hole forever but I think you call it a call Tock I call it a Road to Nowhere or a dead end identity politics in Dei it's just a dead end when you start judging people based on you know any criteria other than their character and performance in the world do we know if there was a response by MIT is this one MIT yeah yeah I don't I don't think yet there has been so
anyway we we'll cover that story next week for sure I think what bill is doing is brave because he is taking on Dei and that is or historically that's been one of the most dangerous things you can do I mean that is what people get canceled for now I know there there are people who I am fans of like like Lenn Greenwald who's been very critical of Amman because he thinks that amman's
trying to restrict free speech and prevent again the pro Palestinian cause from protesting or saying it's peace and I guess Bill can clarify that but I think this issue is less about foreign policy and more about domestic policy these Dei policies and finally we have someone who's willing to take it on and challenge it challenge it at an ideological level and then challenge it at like a just Griff level yeah shout
out to Brian Armstrong he got this right and and he went right up the hill and took the arrows for it and I think we've turned a corner I if you the tweet I did today I would not have done two years ago because I just didn't want to you know risk my firm or the companies I work with you know to kind of expose that grift because could it could blow back on people so but now I feel totally
comfortable doing it so Uber's at 70 well that Al say Uber Uber is 76 puts me in I don't care mode that's for sure he's got Fu money now amman's got a lot of Firepower you know that Bond call was totally right you know the 10 years now sub 4% I will say yeah I will say that does your your bank account does give you the ability to okay final question please we we must wrap we must have a
final question and please throw it to Friedberg first I got freedberg involved early on offense today it's a great show from mom cooks fast and slow on X uh for Friedberg I guess what is the correct way to hire kids out of school now that an elite University degree tells you very little about the applicant and will you follow this path in your own companies oh I have a great answer for
that Tim go ahead no please let free you gotta go to the schools with Co-op why because it allows you to evaluate these kids in C2 on a real-time basis without an obligation to hire you can find the ones that can really do the work have the energy Co programs please it's for people don't know I went to a co-op School University of waterl in Canada the way that it works there not not everywhere but there at least is you go
to school for the first eight months and then you never get a break you're either in working for four months or you're in school for four months and you go back and forth until you graduate so instead of graduating in four years you graduate in five but you graduate with with basically two full years of work experience and depending on the employers that you work at you typically get two to three job offers from those
folks if you do a good job when I was helping to build Facebook we went there we had never hired an intern before and we started to hire people and I think now it happened in Microsoft it happened to Google I think it's happened to Facebook if you look at the number of kids that work at those schools now from Co-op Schools they're higher than any other school there's a bunch of schools
in the United States that have co-op but I would go and find those schools and hire those kids freeberg any thoughts you're now running a company you're back in the saddle how are you going to hire people and tell everybody the name of the company again uh it's called ohal ohal not M ohal and uh you're Mahalo was taken who owns that domain name now I still have it yeah if somebody wants to
I have Mahalo and I have CA happy to sell it to somebody if they want it but tell us how what's your hiring criteria and how do you think about this now like to start an Enterprise software business called kakua it means to help or to guide in Hawaiian so probably the third or fourth most important word yeah go ahead freeberg please I have criteria around raw horsepower skills or experience and
then motivation and I have systems for how we try and assess those and then matching our principles it's kind of the fourth bucket of things horsepower you can test skills is based on experience and fits the role and the need but motivation is one that there's a lot of question marks around does this person have they demonstrated that they've had a not just a desire but an action that they've
taken that has pushed them beyond the limits of the systems that they've operated in and that's what I would typically look for regardless of the the schooling background the educ a background is is some demonstration of that because that's necessary in in business building so those that's that's my framework for hirings we call it you know smarts or horsepower skills motivation and then principles and we
score each one of those and then try and come up with hiring you do that with the CEO candidates I got that email from you and I was very intrigued so I like that all right everybody this has been another amazing episode of the all in podcast for the king of beep and the dictator and the Rainman himself I'm your boy J Cal we'll see you next time bye love you guys byebye let your winners ride Rainman
David and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you queen [Music] of Besties are that's my dog your driveway ta man oh man myit meet me we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release somehow we need to get merch [Music] our I'm All [Music] In