hey Coleman how's it going hey Coleman welcome to the show hey how's it going pleasure have you ever heard of the show yeah I have I I'm actually a fan my girlfriend introduced me to the show like two years ago and I've been a fan ever since great to meet you apparently like many women she has like a she has a legit concerning obsession with Sachs
but also don't say it oh my God what we're tilted this those saxs fans are crazy end the episode end the my God oh my God way to Goan fit right in here all right here we go let me let me this is are cold open folks I'm sorry I let me just psychologically explore this before we get into the real substance of it why
does she like him so much I don't understand this by the way I think you guys missed the second half of my statement I said sax and shamama oh okay great let's let's get thank you thankk God okay here we go 3 two let your winners ride Rainman David and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone [Music] crazy all right everybody welcome back
to the Allin podcast we have a very full docket today I thought we'd start with something pretty crazy there was a really weird uh moment last week Ted threw one of its speakers under the bus so we decided to have him on to talk about the experience the second time they've done it at least they did to Sarah Silverman for doing
comedy at Ted because people at Ted are a bunch of virtual signaling lunatics including some of my friends who go but Coleman Hughes if you don't know him is a writer and podcaster he has a a pretty popular podcast called conversations with Coleman and he did a talk which I encourage everybody to watch at Ted and it's titled a case for color blindness
uh we all watched it it's very power ful talk and something weird happened Coleman welcome to the program and um maybe you could just share with the audience how you wound up speaking at Ted what the content uh of your talk was briefly and then the bizarre reaction when they try to ban and kill your talk post you giving it yeah so
first really glad to be on guys I'm a fan of the Pod so I'll give the short version here if you want long version you can go to the Free Press where I wrote a big uh summary of of what happened there basically what happened is Chris Anderson invited me to give a TED Talk and uh I chose the subject of my upcoming book which is coming out in
February called the end of race politics and the argument is just essentially colorblindness this is the idea that you want to treat people without regard to race both in your personal lives and in our public policy and wherever we have policies that are meant to collect and help the most disadvantaged we we should
preferentially use class as a variable rather than race that's that's my talk in a nutshell so I prepared the talk with the Ted team I got their feedback edited curated Etc got up there in April gave the talk 95% of the people in the audience it was quite well well received whether or not they agreed with every point it was they well within the bounds
of acceptable discourse there was a very small minority on stage I could see that was physically upset by my talk on stage I could see this on stage yet in the moment but I mean I'm talking five people in a crowd of almost 2,000 so I expected that because you know color blindness is not invogue today on on the left amongst
progressives it's really the idea nonr and so I was expecting to field some push back and I I talked to some critics and so forth but what happened is what began as just a few people upset began to spiral into a kind of internal staff meltdown at Ted so this group called black at Ted asked to speak with me I agreed and then they said
actually we don't want to talk to you and they are an employee group at Ted after the conference Chris emailed me and said look I'm getting I'm getting a lot of blowback here internally there are people saying we shouldn't release your at all and then over the course of the next month they came up with a variety of sort of Creative Solutions
about how to release my talk in a way that would appease the woke staffers that really didn't want it to be released at all and at this point I had to start kind of sticking up for myself so first they wanted to attach uh like a debate to the end of my talk and release it as one video which I felt would really send the wrong message it would
send the message that like this idea can't be heard without the opposing persec did they tell you what was problematic about your talk to term well like what was the problem with the talk well there are no factual problems at past the factchecking team there were there were no substantive issues with the talk the problem was that it op the
staff it upset the staff that was the language that was used it upset certain people in the staff got and and those people are black um probably most were you know I I tried to actually have face to face conversations with uh some of these folks I only got to to uh talk to one woman so presumably many of them were
black but possibly not all okay what was the what do you perceive was the problem with your talk or what they perceived the problem with your talk is so the the last day of the Ted conference they have a town hall people from the audience come and give feedback the town hall opened with two people denouncing my talk back to back the first said that it
was racist and dangerous and irresponsible and the second guy who's actually a guy I knew he said that I was willing to have a slide back into the days of separate but equal which was totally the opposite of my talk and I I implore anyone to just go online and watch it Go on YouTube decide for yourself whether these criticisms bear any resemblance to
to reality but that was the idea that the talk is racist that you know I'm I'm some kind of pro Jim Crow person is really really deranged kind of criticisms your your talk is up on Ted's website and on YouTube right but part of the controversy was that the number of views seemed to be pretty suppressed was that discussed with Chris when you
talked with him or do you have a point of view on the suppression of the promotion of the video even though they put it out there and how that's affected you know how widespread the video has been made available to folks yeah so in in my final call with Chris he sort of presented this idea about how to release it and he sold it to me as a way
to amplify my talk which I think was kind of some spin he was in a tough position caught between me and his employees we ultimately decided they would release the talk and then two weeks later they'd release a debate between myself and this guy Jamal Buie who was a New York Times columnist um so the talk came out on
Ted's website the debate came out and I kind of mentally uh had about the whole situation until Tim Urban who was a popular blogger who's actually given the yeah spoke at all in Summit last year yeah oh that's great yeah Tim is great he he's also given the most viewed Ted Talk of all time on YouTube Tim noticed that my talk just
had a really absurdly low view count like an implausibly low view count on on Ted's website in mid August he tweeted this and that he believed they were intentionally under promoting my talk I checked yeah yeah I checked and all of the of the five talks surrounding mine they all had between you know 450,000 views and 800,000 views that was the
full range mine had 73,000 right so 16% of the low end of the range of all the talks released around mine so when that happened I I felt that Ted had kind of reneged on its end of our bargain and that's when um Barry Weiss got wind of it and I I went public just just to be clear you're saying that the condition for releasing
your your Ted Talk The Bargain you struck with Chris was that you would do a debate with someone in a separate video and that you had to do the debate in order to have your Ted Talk released yes wow so yeah that that's what that that was the end of the negotiation the beginning of the negotiation was trying to get me to release those things as one
video and I said hell no and then next we're going to release them as separate videos on the same day I said hell no cuz that dilutes it and then we agreed on a twoe separation between the two in your experience with Ted and your conversations around this matter are you aware of other videos that Ted has refused to put out that were live Ted
Talk at the Ted conference and they were deemed to be too controversial to be released publicly definitely not this year I can't I I you know I don't know the whole history of Ted but nothing like that this year for sure we can go one of two ways with this freedberg do you want to talk about the substance of
the talk or maybe dig into the culture of Ted I want to talk about the substance of the talk in a minute but I think it's worth just sharing my experience with you I started going to Ted as an attendee around I believe 2007 and I went every year until 2019 I got a lot from the community I got a lot from the conference every year it was an
incredible week of my life every year it was a big deal for me um in the early days I would go there and I saw New Perspectives on technology on the environment on um social change on all these like topics that were not in my day-to-day that I thought were really exciting and a inspiring and that really was kind of this ethos of Ted back in
the day before Chris Anderson took it over was to kind of you know inspire people with new ideas over the years that I attended Ted I began to observe that many of the talks and I spoke about this very briefly last week as part of my motivation and interest in doing the all-in summit this year but that over time many of the talks began to take a
bit of a social justice turn in the sense that there was almost a lecturing happening as curated by the editorial process at Ted When Donald Trump was elected president in 2016 needless to say most of the audience of Ted was not on that side of the voting block and what dis Disturbed me the most was that in the three years
after he was elected every Ted conference had plenty of subjects plenty of talks and plenty of conversations about why Society is falling apart why Donald Trump is a key root cause of that why so much of him and what he stands for and the people behind him are unjust and evil in all these ways there wasn't a single talk that provided a
perspective of why anyone voted for him there was no one that shared a point of view about why this person had come to gather more than half the votes or half the votes in the country and I thought that was such an important topic to better understand that I was so shocked that was never part of the discourse at Ted I'm not a republican I'm not a
conservative and I'm not against social justice issues but I saw Ted over time get overtaken with this kind of very one-sided almost bullying type of approach to this is the narrative we want to sell Society on rather than have a true discourse uh about the matter I sent an um a a survey a response in 2019 after I went to Ted and I Saidi never
coming back again this year did it for me I'm over it and there was such a lack of diversity of points of view at this conference and so much of this has veered away from inspiring topics and inspiring talks and it became all about fear of Technology it became about social injustice caused by one side of the political spectrum and it really
angered and upset me that everyone had become so close-minded at Ted and I sent this note and Chris Anderson reached out to me and said will you have a conversation I went on a zoom call with him and I spoke with him for an hour and I shared all of this and I said he's missing so much of what's Happening that's optimis about the world it's
optimistic about technology that's different ways of looking at things and he's kind of created this very narrow-minded view on the topics that they want to address and how they want to address them and that was it and I walked away so when I saw what happened with your talk to me it's almost like the ultimate endgame of this process
that I've been observing at Ted personally for the last 13 years and I just wanted to you know or last 15 years I guess share that story with you and speak publicly about it I I I very much respect the intention of the people Ted I respect Chris Anderson deeply the TED Talks changed my life many times along the way over the decade plus that I went
there there I have many great friends from Ted I know plenty of people that have worked there everyone has the right intention but I think it's such a microcosm and a reflection of what's broadly been going on which is it's either my opinion or not and everyone coalesces around people with the same opinion and then you magnify it and you
concentrate it and we have no discourse and Ted used to be a place for discourse and it's lost that as have so many other forums for conversation in the society and Country today col what's your what's your take on the on the Ted organization you know pre and post having had this experience I'm curious yeah what you
just said David I've heard echoed from at least a dozen people that have gone to Ted or or been uh you know in the Ted Community for 10 years or more they've noticed the exact change that you noticed the question is what has driven that is it actually coming top down from the leadership I'm not sure I I'm skeptical I yeah I see you shaking your
head I I agree Chris Anderson I would say no I agree so so like all my private Communications with with Chris suggest to me that he is just as alive to this problem of ideological capture of Institutions as anyone but when it comes to you know his own staff who have really strong feelings who are not pro Free Speech who are not pro um heterodox
beliefs um and Open disc course who who literally just don't share that value you know it's a very tricky thing with leadership sometimes you have to Simply Be the bad guy and say I'm sorry these are the values of the institution and if you're not on board you're this is not right for you and my perception
is that Ted has been captured kind of from the bottom up like many institutions just from the seeping in of staff that don't share those values and the in uh inability of the leadership to actually hold the line for those values they tell you that you made them feel unsafe Yes actually actually yes yes people said they felt they were attacked
in the audience and I'm you know my my talk was again just look it up on YouTube it's quite mild can we actually talk about that let's go into the substance what was your take on it Jamia I'll just make a statement which is I think that your talk was superb and just to give you my journey as a kid that grew up as a refugee on welfare
and then to get through every single sort of strata of society I think when I look back the biggest thing that I struggled with was always confusing when I felt mistreated I would always direct it at racism it would be my sort of safety blanket and I would always look at other people as doing that and it was only
until I met my wife and spent spending years and years talking about it where I was able to disarm this and see that out of a 100 interactions a lot of the time just people are having a bad day some other percentage of the time people are actually just being very classist because racism it turns out is like a pretty severe perversion and it's
really crazy when you actually see it play out and for me had I had a framework if I had your talk when I was in my 20s and 30s I would have speared myself a lot of self-sabotage because what that does is when you feel these things and you don't have a framework to interpret it or to tolerate the anxiety I would internalize that anxiety
and I was a less productive person and so if the goal was for me on behalf of my family or on behalf of people like me to make it I would have gotten there much faster had I not gotten in my own way and when I watched your talk it was incredibly validating for the work that I had done and I had thought to myself man if I had had him if he had made that
for me when I was 20 years old amazing I would have I could have done so much more because when I think about some of the mistakes I made they were rooted in this specific issue that you touched so I just want to say thank you and I also want to say that to the extent other people are interested and feel like that you should really listen
to what you had to say because I thought it was eloquently addressed I was a huge huge huge fan of what you had to say and I thought it was extremely well done and especially for someone as young as you I thought it was just amazing Coleman let me ask you what was the reaction from people of color people who've
experienced racism perhaps to your talk because you must have gotten a tremendous amount and I did look at the comments to Ted's credit the comments are open so what was the reaction you know to to to people like shath or yourself people of color who maybe have experienced racism on some regular basis and this idea of having color blindness
when when we're um you know operating as a society and that goal which I'll just point out when I listen to your talk seems to be exactly what Martin Luther King said so go ahead yeah it is so there's the The Stereotype of the reaction is that white people like my talk and people of color don't yes so that's the stereotype that my critics
would like to believe is the reality because then they don't have to confront my arguments the reality is that even at the Ted conference which is a progressive space many many people of color uh black people South Asian people came up to me saying that was an excellent talk for this that and the third reason and I think uh uh probably for
for reasons uh similar to what you were saying chth I I found that often times immigrants of color really resonate with my message uh I have many for instance Jamaican friends that you know they view themselves as Jamaican they come to America and our conversation about race doesn't make very much sense to them right why it doesn't make sense for
instance to strongly feel that your racial identity is an aspect of your core inner self that you ought to judge people on the basis of their racial identity that you know if you're a white person that you know you don't have a valid perspective to bear on a conversation or you have to you know preface every belief by saying well I'm a I'm a dumb
white guy what do I know this kind of routine that we've gotten into in spaces rather than just confronting each other as hey you know I'm Coleman you're chth you're David Etc let's all talk about this from the point of view of epistemic equals and have conversations and yeah you you're going to know about stuff I
haven't known because of your individual life story I'm going to I'm going to have experienced stuff that you haven't we may have even experienced racial discrimination we may we may have stor stories to tell but we are starting out fundamentally from the framework of all being human beings that can talk to each
other and you know we we don't have to sort of playact the these racial roles that have become increasingly in Vogue in woke spaces and a lot of people resonate with that and and and and what's more you know you've gotten this thing on the left you you've gotten media institutions that have been taken in in by this so you you see New York
Times op-eds like one I think five years ago that's can my children be friends with white people right you've got Robin D'Angelo in her book saying things like a white person shouldn't cry around a black person because it triggers us it's like this is so the opposite of what it actually feels like to hang out with an interracial and tight-knit group of
friends your race racial identity recedes in importance the more you get to know people and I think people in interracial relationships know this people with interracial kids know this so my message actually res resonates with people of of of all colors that I think was one of the most poignant parts of it saxs um you got to watch the talk
as well I believe so your thoughts on maybe institutions rotting from the inside and uh maybe even one that's supposed to support ideas ideas that matter clearly this is an idea that matters I'm curious I I just want I want to I want to not use the term rotting because I think your your point is that it's not good I don't think that's
necessarily the case because the point is there's institutional capture that's happened and that institutional capture is almost like a democratic process that we're seeing at companies that we're seeing at government agencies and that we're seeing in private and nonprofit institutions that the individuals that are employed uh are capturing the
organization's ideals obviously we that's what I mean by rotting I mean it's like it's such a stored institution you know in terms of it was a brave institution under Ricky saw Warman you know I get it but I think I think rotting is such a derogatory term in the sense that some of these institutions evolve to be different but and that's
the only thing I I just I don't want to make it yeah sax of rotting or is it being taken over uh from the inside out from the bottom up what are your thoughts I think captured is a pretty good word to use Freer use that word just remember Ted's original Mission represented in the tagline was ideas wereth spreading so there's supposed to
be a forum for interesting worthy ideas that they're going to spread and here they're doing the opposite they're basically sandbagging the views and they didn't want to publish it at all and then when they did agree to publish it they basically subjected that to a new requirement of putting a rebuttal right by it so this is not living up to the
original Mission now why did this happen I want to go to Chris Anderson's response here he wrote this long post on X which is too long to read here it's a really sort of weasly mey mouth defense of what they did a lot of both sides type language I think there's really only one or two sentences that are relevant in terms of
explaining this whole thing what he says is that many people have been genuinely hurt and offended by what they heard you say so he's a addressing this to Coleman this is not what we dream of when we post our talk so I think this is really the key intellectual mistake that Chris Anderson's making is that he believes that people can be genuinely hurt by
encountering well-reasoned ideas they disagree with I think the way that the marketplace of ideas is supposed to work is that when you encounter an idea you disagree with you formulate an equally wellth thought out response and you engage in intellectual discourse maybe get curious yeah get curious exactly but you know I think
these words are really significant because he's saying not just that the objectors here were offended he was saying that they were hurt genuinely hurt so he's buying into this idea that hearing ideas you disagree with is somehow a threat to your safety yeah and as soon as you do that as soon as you concede that there can be some sort of
physical harm from engaging with ideas you give the equivalent of a heckler's veto to the people who don't like these ideas it's almost like a crybaby's veto so there's no way you can function as a Marketplace of ideas and certainly a platform for ideas worth spreading if you're going to give a veto to people who can claim that their subjective
emotional reaction to well-thought ideas should Trump the right of the speaker to put out that idea or the the broader audience to hear it right exactly and I think that's and I think that's where We've Ended up Coleman can I ask your point of view on institutional capture obviously this is different than the topics you've been you've spoken about
but as you've gone through this experience with Ted and as you think more broadly about what's going on do you have a point of view on the capture of Institutions from the bottom up that's happened and how that's affected some of these topics like free speech sharing of ideas open discourse um all these foundations that made kind
of a free and open Society work effectively for so long yeah well it's it's a very difficult problem because you know it's easy for me from the outside not being the leader of a major institution to to say well this is just what you have to do obviously it's more psychologically difficult to go to your own staff that you have to
metaphorically live with every day and really shake things up um and mo many people aren't willing to do that someone like Barry Weiss who used to be at the New York Times you know her point of view on it is look you just got to start your own institutions you have to start your own institutions with the right ethos from day one and that's what she's
tried to do with the Free Press um rather than try to reform institutions that have a lot of unhealthy inertia bet Chris could have stopped this very easily I mean this is a failure of leadership what he needed to tell these employees is look our mission is to be a platform for spreading interesting ideas is and we can't treat this speech
differently than any other speech just because you disagree with it that's all he had to do and by the way just because an idea may be offensive does not mean that it should not be spread I think have you read Jonathan hates book coddling of the American mind absolutely yeah great book and I think that speaks
and that was the book I gave away in our gift bag at the all-in summit this year because I thought it was such like an important and kind of preent point of view on what's going on right now that we assume that if something is offensive by some some group could be a large group or a small group it needs to be suppressed and obviously as you extend
that concept to its extreme you end up losing many ideas that challenge you know the current kind of main concept that everyone believes here's what I don't understand so Coleman just maybe if you can just guess why when somebody watches this talk could they feel genuinely hurt like what like if we had to steal man them let's step in their
shoes like what is the what's the cycle that's going on there that gets them to oh my God this is an intolerable point of view yeah I mean I think there has to be something with if you're a person that has you know St your life or your career out on the concept of sort of race-based divers iversity equity and inclusion
explicitly taking race into account in policies and you know you're someone that's been working in that domain for 30 years and you see someone like me come up there and just argue against that whole approach there may be some severe threat mechanism that comes on board where you actually don't have a rational argument that that easily
debunks what I'm saying because what I'm saying is very reasonable and so in the absence of a great rational argument when the stakes are high all the you know Primal animal emotions sort of come out your your whole lyic system and you feel like you're kind of in a fight ORF flight situation and and you and you feel incredibly emotional that's
my only guess yeah they're hurt and it's scary to think what if you win the argument and if you win the argument it means certain things might go away and and I think the two examples they gave you Chris Anderson came on stage and said oh you know when conductors are looking for a new violinist they put them behind a you know a shade and they
and they do colorblind selection process a color blind selection process I think Malcolm Gladwell talked about that in blink and your response to and then they said well wouldn't be better if we could have you know some representation in that group so then we would inspire people to get to the group your response
to that was yeah my response to that was what you really want to do is if there are reasons why say black kids aren't getting access to violins at the at a young age because schools are underfunded or ban programs are are horrible in inner cities that's where you want to intervene you don't want to intervene a at the point at the at the
meritocratic endline racially rigging the very bar that you would use to measure progress on those deeper Dimensions have you read this book called losing ground by Charles Marine yes I have I mean a very provocative book I have always thought and maybe I'll just leave this with you because if you were willing to do it I for one
would love to support you in any way that I could to do it but we don't have a full accounting of what really happened starting in the late 1960s with lbj's war on poverty and I think when you look at racism through the American lived experience a lot of it goes back to a bunch of economic incentives that were set up to try to what theoretically
seemed at the time the right thing we can debate whether that's where LBJ came from or not but you compound and Cascade a bunch of decisions forward and to your point now we're sort of trying to deal with the symptoms Without Really addressing the root cause and I think if America wants to really heal and deal with this what we also need to do is
give all those people that have that fight ORF flight response a better toolkit to understand what kind of godess here because right now we have a very charged way of viewing these things without actually looking at some of the practical quantifiable details Thomas so has talked about it Charles Murray talks about
it but these are unfortunately such heterodox ideas that they just don't get enough mainstream discussion and if you then compound that with this institutional capture they get buried and so the answer may actually be sitting right in front of our face where it was the Ware reform system that we implemented in the late 1960s on Down
the Line because those are structural ways where we can solve it which ultimately will get to your point which is great fund more music in the schools in that example and right now we're so caught up in all of the the labels and the fear mongering that we never get to that and so I just wanted to put that out there that I think that there needs
to be smart brilliant people like yourself young people who can do a full accounting of like the last 50 or 60 years in a much more structural way that these gentlemen tried to do but the ideas were just too heterodox at the time but because of formats like podcast and like the Free Press and other things I think there's a chance that you can
actually to get these ideas out and I think it's important because I think folks like me or the people that approached you there's not enough of us that came from this background that are open-minded or at a point where we can tolerate the anxiety to listen to your ideas there's a lot of people that may just viscerally react but the more that
we can shift those people away from viscerally reacting to actually tolerating and then thinking and then evolving their point of view you can do some enormous good in the world just why I just wanted to put that out there yeah yeah no I mean that's a huge topic and an understudied topic what was the effect of of the welfare reforms of the'
60s and70s I know my mother used to say she grew up in the South Bronx I'm half Hispanic half black American and she used to say uh she used to just have stories of you know when the welfare Auditors would come around and people would hide their boyfriends hide their husbands hide their husbands exactly and
the um and in the book Black Power by stokeley carmichel um AKA quame té which is is uh you know the manifesto of the Black Power movement hardly a a right-wing Source they they made the same point about welfare reform so they definitely is something to be investigated there um it's not really my point of expertise I know Glenn Lowry is
someone who has really you know dug into that sort of research but there's definitely a a a lot of room for study there Colman let me ask you a question about our industry we've had um a lot of hand ringing and debates about diversity in funding of startups uh Capital allocators Venture Capital firms and um we have limited partners who have a
mission to have more diverse uh General Partners the people at Venture firms who invest in startups invest in more female lead startups Etc because the numbers frankly you know have not been um very diverse uh historically inventure far from it and we recently had a female a black female Venture firm I think it's called Fearless Founders get sued I'm
not sure if you're aware of that lawsuit it's by the same person who sued Harvard should there be Venture firms specifically designed to change the ratio is the language people use and should you know people with large endowments of capital be backing you know black Venture capitalists to see more of them or female black venture
capitalist Hispanic Etc or how would you look at that issue which has been a pretty sticky issue and hasn't changed for a long time so prescriptively I don't want to say much because I don't like to tell people how to run their funds or run their businesses right if you're a Christian and you want to hire only
Christian people if you're a Muslim you want to hire only Muslims I think you should frankly be allowed to do that if those are your personal values now personally I will tell you with respect to the people that I would hire to say work on my podcast I want every single hire to know that I am not hiring them as a result of their skin color or or
gender or any other contingent feature of of their identity I want them to know that I'm hiring them for what they really bring to the table now I have a very small team maybe there's something about how the Optics certain Optics are required for a larger um a larger firm but I think it it the problems begin when you when you sort of bless this
idea that race is a super deep feature of who you are right from the start when you bless that idea right from the start it sends the signal that what people bring to the table is their racial identity is their gender now when you fast forward two years down the line when a company is having some meltdown over a race or a gender issue you have
to understand that it's possible you made this bed by signaling from the very beginning that what's important about the people you're bringing in is their race is their gender and that you are uh vulnerable to the kinds of appeals that can be made purely on the basis of what are ultimately superficial features of
our identity yeah it's well said what would your advice be to institutional leaders that are past that point of no return the CEOs of big companies and big institutions that are now captive by these ideologies where they are effectively as you say Ultra sensitive to issues around race and gender and other sort of you know superficial identities
and are challenged often to to make decisions or driven to make decisions that their employees and teams demand of them do you have advice on how they can rethink their roles as leaders and how to reframe this I mean in a word no because it's by that point it's uh it's it's an intract intractable problem I've
had I've talked to CEOs that asked this question to me over and over again you know like what do I do once I'm past the point where i' I have so many staff and it's it's you know the system is so sprawling that it's no longer under my control I have so many people with values that I don't share that I frankly think privately are insane but I cannot
say so publicly because I have higher order commitments to the shareholders to the board to to steer this ship right such as it is and the ship cannot be changed at this point I don't have good advice I'm not going to pretend that I do do you think that same problem is inherent in political parties in the United States states St governments and
other larger kind of social systems that we used to organize ourselves and are now also captive and in kind of a point of no return I think definitely in the Democratic party there has been a problem with mistaking the Twitter commentariat and the journalistic elite for real life the truth is the vast majority of even Democrat voters find my
arguments around colorblindness totally uncontroversial whether they may have some agreements or not but if you ask the elite there's a meltdown right there's this huge there's just this huge discrepancy and it can never be hammered enough the extent to which people in politics are operating in a bubble and believe mistaking the
elite and the Twitter Sphere for The Wider population I mean this feels to me like why Donald Trump got elected but that's another topic this has been amazing uh everybody take a moment search for Coleman Hughes subscribe to his YouTube channel type Coleman Hughes Ted Coleman you do you do a podcast yeah I do a podcast conversations with Coleman
actually David saaks has been on podcast about a year ago how did he do how did he do he did absolutely fantastic did he make you feel unsafe he did actually yes was it talk about the Ukraine talk about UK talk wait can I can I be on your podcast I of course I would I would be honored oh great fantastic there you go I would be honored thank you I I I
saw you had um the Dilbert guy on and I thought that was pretty engaging conversation yeah Scott Adam who is you know really controversial and I thought you handled that one really well too yeah thanks he's an interesting one it's like he has a lot of brilliant things to say but also he maybe thinks the CIA is going to kill him recently on Twitter
it's it's a mixed bag it's I would mixbag would be where I would go with it all right listen this has been amazing the Ted Talk is extraordinary everybody should watch it and yeah ideas worth spreading unless maybe uh you don't agree with them go to the Ted Channel and watch it stop sorry I mean I don't want to give Ted too much of a hard time
but they tried to get me to pay $50,000 a year $25,000 a year for like a fiveyear package to go to the event and I was like how how much is Ted how much is Ted reg tickets used to be 7500 and then no they used to be 7500 then I think they went up to 10K and and then you can do like donor tickets and you get different features and so on
basically they're sold out remember it it is set up as a nonprofit and there is philanthropic work that's done and so you know the organization is again it's not a profiteering media company it it it became a big Media Company because of the success of the the efforts and the the quality of the content that was
produced over time but you know as we talked about a lot of media companies and a lot of Institutions get captured and you know the original kind of Mission to paraphrase to paraphrase uh Bruce Willis and Pulp Fiction Ted's dead baby Ted's dead Ted's dead a great SC you gets on the back of the motorcycle de's dead baby as soon as they allow the
staff who have let's say highly Niche Elite views to veto or suppress talks they don't like then it stops being a platform for ideas this becomes another leftwing interest group what other ideas what other talks have been canned before they even got to to the stage you have to wonder and we don't know who are they not
inviting and it's all the it's the top of the funnel Jason exactly that's all that's all the people that they're not invited what about the person that's Pro Cole I wonder if the pro Cole person is allowed to present it to I doubt it uh you know and the they they had Sarah Silverman and she did a comedy set which was hilarious and the same people so
this is the thing I find so the hypocrisy is just so crazy uh with the Ted people and it's a lot of my friends still go is they had Sarah Silverman come these people have laughed at Sarah Silverman a million times they've watched Dave Chappelle they've seen any number of comments you know make them laugh with edgy humor but then when
they're in that you know Ted audience and they're feeling super precious and that they're very important because they donate 50 Grand a year or whatever fredberg gave them I don't know to get in there from the side door then they were super offended so it you know they're Hypocrites and I don't know how to say it anymore clearly they
they literally you could pull up Chris Anderson apologizing not just again again I really apologizing for a comedian I mean I I I hope that this is a learning experience for everyone I hope that this is a turning point for leadership and in institutions like this to take a look at what happened how it happened and then hopefully to write the
course because organizations like Ted I thought were very important and should be in the world and should be successful and I hope that they kind of return to the original values and I hope that this is a moment that that there's a learning experence that we don't Just sh on them and say they're awful they're failed it's over hopefully something
comes of this I do think there is one other potential remedy here which besides just starting a new Ted um and the kind of the Barry Wise point of view which is just write it off and start over remember what Brian Armstrong did at coinbase he basically said listen we have a mission here it's around crypto we're going to focus 100% on this
Mission and if you're not on board with this Mission or want to capture this institution to promote other missions this is not the place for you go do those missions somewhere else he took a hit the New York Times wrote their obligatory hit piece Chris was tell everybody no instead of saying that I would say if Chris has good
mentors as well as a good sounding board that is the threshold question that should be debated right now is do I walk in the door and do I just give this simple litmus test and have people sign up or not and yeah Rec and it's quite and it's quite easy because to your point it's not like he's inventing something new he's saying this is where
we started and this is where we're going to stay and this is what it means and if he doesn't do that then he's spoken with his actions and it is what it is it'll what what is meant to happen will then happen exactly exactly it's it's a it's a moment for looking at the internal Compass it's a wholesale leadership reset moment opportunity see if it
happens or not down and keep going I really appreciate you're being public about all this and talking about it it's been it's been a great conversation everybody for we'll see you soon cheers now see you man thanks all right listen it's a new segment we have here when virture signaling goes wrong if you missed it
the Canadian Parliament gave a standing ovation to a Nazi not like a new Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer uh one of the few actual Nazis still alive uh here we see uh just the crowd going wild uh last Friday uh ukrainians president zinsky gave a speech at the Canadian House of Commons and um Canadian house Speaker Anthony Rota introduced a 98-year-old [Music]
yaroslav hunka as a Ukrainian war hero and then the Canadian Parliament proceeded to give him a standing ovation and it uh turns out that this person first fought for the first Ukrainian division in World War II that unit was also known as the Waffen SS Galicia Division if I'm pronouncing that cor correctly uh which was a voluntary unit under under Nazi command
so the Canadian parment apparently gave a standing ovation to Nazis they have apologize for this and said it was a mistake chth I don't know if you got to see this you're Canadian uh so your thoughts on what we've seen here I mean I'll give you my feedback as somebody who when I was you know in Canada was a pretty Ardent liberal I
grew up in a liberal household my father canvas religiously for the Liberals and I think that at some point after I moved to the United States they took wokeism which I think look at some level was rooted in something very important which was how do you get marginalized folks to be seen but unfortunately along the way
just got perverted by folks that just use it as a cudel to censor people to make other people feel guilty to judge people and so I think we all would agree that it's kind of become this virus the thing that it masks are all of these other really bad things that come along with it and one of them in Canada which Justin Trudeau is case Zero of is also
when nepotism goes bad his father was an incredible Exemplar prime minister in Canada set the Benchmark on all Dimensions was just incredible cool composed moved the country forward brought the country together and then fast forward 25 or 30 years in a vacuum of leadership what basically happened we picked this guy who was up until that
point a substitute teacher and the other claim to fame was appearing twice in brownface okay so making fun of people like me and elected him prime minister and what happened was he became the sort of like virtue signaler and chief of this very important GA country and it was all kind of bumbling along and in the absence of anybody else
that was able to step up and offer an alternative he got reelected barely but he did then these things happened in the last year and when you look through that prism is how you can see what happens if a country doesn't draw a line and finally take a stand so we had this guy who was Ill qualified and way over his head who shouldn't have been in this
role as prime minister get put in that position when finally a group of people in Canada push back in this case the truckers he and the entire government explicitly labeled them as Nazis right and said these people need to be put down and completely dismantled it didn't seem like it was right we called that out we all talked
about it and we said this doesn't smell right on the surface these are really seems like good Earnest people that are just trying to make a point and are not being heard then you had this thing three weeks ago two two or three weeks ago where he actually had a speech in front of the entire Parliament where he accused the largest democracy in the
world India in this case of coming into Canada Canadian soil and assassinating a Canadian citizen which is an enormous allegation to Levy and what was important to know about that allegation was that it was done without the explicit vocal support of either Britain or the United United States which would be the two most natural allies that
Canada would present that information to and instead of doing it behind a closed door to Modi he did it on live stage like it was like some theatrical performance then India follows up and says um this guy's kind of known to be a little bit of a drug addict and was on a two-day bender and the Indian drug dog smelled a bunch of cocaine on the
plane then they have this thing for Vladimir zalinski where everybody was there to sort of like virtue signal this war and then they actually invited a Nazi and then gave him a standing ovation so when you when you put it all together I think what it shows is just the lack of professionalism which also belies just
the lack of experience and capability and so I think what it shows is just like isn't this enough like have we not seen enough of these examples where you can actually start to ask yourself why can't we just get really good competent people to do these jobs why can't we actually embrace free speech and all of
what it means and explore that why can't we have people that don't need to theatrically perform on stage because eventually you're going to make these mistakes and you're going to embarrass your entire country and then you're going to imperil relations with some really important allies and I think this is a moment in time where all of those
things need to be questioned and put on the table you're clearly questioning his com competence here because to not have the care to check who is going to speak in front of parliament is crazy and just to make it super clear the speaker that invited hunka that was Anthony Rota resigned on Tuesday and tro says Rota the person who invited the Nazi uh is
solely responsible well then he blamed Russian misinformation on top of that but Jason you don't you don't the Prime Minister who is the most important politician in the country doesn't show up place unless the office knows who else is going to be there he knew that zeni was going to be there he would have known who the guest list
was this was just scaping to cover it up but but the bigger issue to be clear you're not saying that they invited a Nazi on purpose and cheered for a Nazi on purpose where nobody's saying that you're saying there's a lack of care here and it's it's a lack of confidence it's a lack confidence yeah yeah just so we're clear yeah okay so I agree with
all of that I think there's also two other dimensions to this backstory if you will I think first in terms of how does a mistake like this happen I think it was Orwell who said that he who controls the present controls the past and he who controls the past controls the future the present is Ukraine it is the current thing everybody has to cheer
for Ukraine and for the killing of Russians the reason why hunka was cheered with a standing ovation is because they said that he fought Russians he was a war hero who fought Russians all you had to do was do a little bit of math to realize the guy's 98 years old when was there a war against Russia who could he possibly
have been fighting for but to the extent people did that they sort of airbrushed it or whitewash history so the present controls the past to ensure a a vision of the future which Trudeau laid out in this speech he gave recently where he became so Ardent in his support for Ukraine he was almost yelling at the podium saying that Canada had to make
make all these economic sacrifices to win the war so that's Point number one is I think that the woke M virus almost requires this whitewashing of the past but it's done for a specific purpose which is to control the future well they're not whitewashing the past if it was a mistake that intellectually doesn't make sense no what they did is
what they're saying is if I'm understanding you correctly yeah the present is that we hate Russia so much that we're going to cheer for anybody who killed Russians okay I understand your point but you're you're agreeing that they did not knowingly put a Nazi on there so it was a mistake got it I don't think they they knowingly did it
it was a huge debacle and embarrassing spectacle I think that nobody asks any questions about the past because the present overrides it sure the present need to support the current thing overrides like any sort of examination what has happened historically there's one other way in which I think this wasn't an accident Jason is that if you
look at us policy towards Ukraine we have made common cause with a number of these far-right Ultra nationalist groups frankly Neo-Nazi groups and this occurred before the the current War so it's not just a marriage of convenience first of all if you go back to War I the the father of Ukrainian nationalism is a
guy named stepen Bandera and today in Ukraine he is seen as some sort of hero and there are streets named after him and their streets named after some of his co-conspirators who collaborated with Nazis if you fast forward to the more recent past to 2014 when we had this uh maidon coup in Kiev that was backed by Victoria Newland
one of the key figures in that coup was a guy named Ola tonbach who is the founder of the soda party which is the social nationalist party which if you know what Nazi stands for it's National Socialist they basically just flip the name and the original logo of this Vota party was the wolf's Angel which was a Nazi Insignia this was a far right party
infused with the racial ideology of Stephan Bandera who was again a Nazi and they brought this guy in and and his party as the muscle in this coup if you look at the Victoria nulan phone call the infamous phone call where she is picking the new Ukrainian government the the yats is our guy phone call she says that klitsch meaning klitch
and and tonbach need to remain on the outside but yats needs to be talking to tonbach four times a week okay he was part of the chess pieces that they were moving around after the coup a civil war breaks out in the dabass because the ethnic Russians there are opposed to this new government and the fact that yanukovich who they voted for was
deposed in an Insurrection what happens then is a war breaks out where farri paramilitary organizations like right sector and like the infamous aoff Battalion start killing these ethnic Russian separatists and a full-blown Civil War breaks out thousands of people get killed does the Kiev government suppress these Neo-Nazi groups no they
bring him under the formal command structure of the Ukrainian military AO Battalion becomes a division of the Ukrainian military it's shocking and this goes on from 2014 through the Ukraine Army just to be clear here has Nazis in it Nazi supporters there's no question about that and there are many people who were concerned about
this in the 2015 to 2020 time frame there were many articles written about it the nation had an article about it there were efforts in Congress at various points to try to ensure that the aid that we were giving to the Ukrainian government did not go to the a off Italian so so it is said so it is said okay I think the important and and and
obviously is a Nazi or a Nazi symp no no I I don't think he's a Nazi and to be clear I don't think most ukrainians are Nazis and I don't even think that most Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis what I'm saying is that there is a Nazi element in Ukraine that people have whitewashed over well here's the thing about it I don't think it's a huge
percentage but I think they have outsid influence due to their willingness to use violence du due to their extremism and they're willingness to use it's any different than the Nazi percentage in say what whatever you want to say white supremacist in the United States or in Germany or anywhere else I do and I think it's different in this sense that
in the United States for sure we have Neo-Nazi groups they're not brought into the military we don't have streets named after their Patriarchs furthermore we don't have members of our military with Nazi Insignia on them there was a New York Times article just a few months ago talking about the fact that embarrassingly a lot of these Ukrainian
soldiers are being photographed with Nazi Insignia on their uniforms now the New York Times is framing this as a problem because it was a propaganda coup for Putin and presumbly it was I think but I think it's a problem because it's a problem not because of just the pr Optics of it and you know at various points I think this is in the New York
Times article as well Western media has had to airbrush these photos to hide this fact now oh the New York Times has airbrushed photos of Nazi I don't think New York Times has but I don't think New York Times has but I think they talk about this thorny problem of not wanting to show these photos with respect to the
the zalinsky being Jewish so what I'd say about that is that zilinsky only came on the scene quite recently he got elected in 2019 and again I don't think the majority of people in Ukraine are Nazis okay so I'm not saying that but just because zalinsky came on the scene in 2019 and was elected president doesn't mean there's a long and I would say
disturbing history and Association between Ukrainian ultr nationalism and Neo-Nazi groups and I think that part of the the woke thing and part of this orwellian desire where control of the present gives you the ability to rewrite the past is that there's been a deliberate effort to cover up this problem and to pretend it doesn't exist
to turn a blind eye to it well my point is that US policy has been to do this and other words the US saying our government yeah okay the US state department and presumably CIA made common cause with these far-right groups because we thought it was beneficial to be aligned with them and so we did it in the maanu in 2014 from
2015 to 2021 we could have gone along with efforts under the minska cords to resolve this conflict in the dbass peacefully but we never did that we never gave it any support and instead we gave support to the Kiev regime's attempt to violently suppress these Russian separatists and again the suppression was being done by these
right-wing groups look does that make our state department Nazis no does that make the Canadian Parliament Nazis no what I'm saying is that in both cases a blind eye was turned to the disturbing ideology and past and associations of these people because it's politically in our interest to do business with them and that's the problematic thing about
it so I don't think in that sense this was just a sort of an accident this is the backstory that explains like something like this can happen yeah okay Jason you have any re actions to Trudeau doing this and what it means or does it mean nothing does the backstory I provided give you context on how something like this can happen that's
not just like an accident well I don't think any of us can know exactly what happened here and there's probably going to be some sort of Investigation but I don't think they knowingly put a Nazi up there um I think they are pro the war and that probably could that have blinded them to do deeper research sure people are political politicians most of
all and um people probably take facts or you know any kind of anything they can use to to um make their case stronger they'll take advantage of that so yeah sure and is truee do zinski zalinsky was pumping his fist and cheering don't you think he knew he can't not know the history he has to know he has to know if
he does then that somebody who was fighting the Russians in World War II good question on the German side if he did then you would be saying if he did know and he was pumping his fist then you'd be saying that he was pro-nazi he was cheering for Nazi knowingly no what I'm saying is look the fact that you've got some Jewish answer street is not in
my view a get out of jail free card you making political decision je part are say are you saying he knowingly cheered for a Nazi you know one of the big backers of the aoff Battalion is a Ukrainian olar named Igor kosi kosi is Jewish you ask me my opinion I'm just saying do you do you think he knowingly cheered for a Nazi is that what you're
insinuating I think he knowingly cheered knowing that this Ukrainian nationalist who fought in World War II must have been on the German side because there was only one side F Russians okay I'm just clarifying here I don't actually have an opinion thanks for uh quering me J I'm not saying that he cheered for
Nazism what I'm saying is he cheered for Ukrainian nationalism and he knows that Ukrainian nationalism is bound up and tied up with this disturbing history which he is willing to ignore do you guys do you guys let me finish my point about the ASO Battalion the AO Battalion is undeniably a Neo-Nazi group it was funded by eor Ki who's a Ukrainian
oligarch who is Jewish who lives in Israel why would kaloi do that because the aof Battalion believes that every inch of Ukraine including cria and donbass which has enormous energy reserves belongs to Ukraine so it served the business interests of the energy magnates in Ukraine to support these people and that look politics makes for
strange bed fellows yeah what I was going to say actually yeah so I'm not saying that zalinski or Ki or anybody else is a Nazi because they aligned with these people I'm saying they found it politically expedient and useful to align with these groups just like the US state department did quite frankly I don't think we should do that if you
want to go around the world Jason saying that we're the champions of freedom and democracy and having this moralistic almost virtue signaling foreign policy I don't think we should be in business or aligned with these Neon groups wherever the hell they are I think that's when you say you do you mean me or do you
mean the United States I'm saying if you want to have a highly moralistic foreign policy let's say if one wants to have I would use the word yeah if you're going to be principled you need to keep the you need to not support Nazis we're in agree what do you Jason and freeberg what do you guys think of just like the the breadcrumbs in Canada I'm just
curious whether you guys care about this whole vein of just like competent leadership nepotism if you have a view or it's like that is just what it is whatever I I don't know enough about Canadian politics really but Trudeau does not seem to be super qualified yeah um so but I don't know enough about it I mean so just in terms of the Canadian
part of this there's a writer named Jeet here who's a left-wing Rider but he posted something very interesting here where he explained that in the late 1940s and 1950s Canada took in a large number of former Nazis many of whom were SS veterans so people like hunka because they were good anti-com and then these Nazis proceed to
terrorize anti-nazi Ukrainian Canadians there was this Ukrainian Hall was bombed here in 1950 so Canada has a weird history of bringing in some of these people after World War II so the point is was aware of that yeah exactly look there's no way that any semi-intelligent person who knows the history of World War II especially the Ukrainian
involvement in World War II wouldn't know that Ukraine was on the German side in World War II and hunka volunteered for the SS he was a volunteer for the SS gesia division so look did the Speaker of the House know probably not I think wokeness makes people stupid where they just think about the current thing and I don't ask too many questions about the
past but there's a lot more to it than just like this innocent mistake and this has been your update on this week in Ukraine and wokeness all right there's a bunch of news about open ey this week just very quickly openai is in advanced talks according to the financial times with Johnny I of iPhone Fame Steve Jobs's long-term collaborator and masi
yoshian of SoftBank to raise more than $1 billion dollar to build the iPhone of AI and so the idea would be uh Johnny Ives got a design firm called love from and they would help open ey design their first consumer device via the Ft sources Financial Times that is Alman and I have been having brainstorming sessions and I of San
Francisco Studio about what a consumer product centered around open AI would look like it's very early stages and son has pitched a role for arm in the development uh his chip company that he recently took public they also uh discussed Masa and Alman uh creating a company that would draw on talent and Tech from their three groups
with SoftBank putting in a billion dollars in seed and then also openi is discussing a secondary share sale that would value the company at between 80 billion and 90 billion this should be 3x the most recent valuation reportedly though to their credit they are on track to generate $1 billion in Revenue in 2023 uh I'm not sure how much of that is
the $20 a month subscription you know that' be pretty extraordinary if that was those personal subscriptions uh this would be a massive gain on paper for Microsoft open a is 49% owned by Microsoft and Sam malman has personally has stated multiple times now that he has no equity so he would be getting zero dollars of this I and of course we
know that open AI started as a nonprofit before switching and our friend Veno kosla told us very clearly uh that those are just details uh what happened there Jam those are those are those are just details bod is the goat Sam is the closest thing that we have to an emergent Mogul in Tech and the reason is because if everything sits
on this substrate you're going to need to get a license you're going to want to get access to whatever developer program whatever beta that open AI has and so as a result that's already happened by the way well I was just going to say so he'll be in the cap bir seat so even if he doesn't have any equity in open AI he'll get
he'll just put his money into the best startups that it's like why combinator on steroid by the way I have a take on that whole claim that Sam doesn't own any part of open AI all right let's hear it go ahead Columbo explain to us the details one more thing there ma'am you said you don't own any shares in open AI but you started open AI right well then
who does yeah that's the thing what I think is really interesting about what open AI has done in its fundraising rounds is that each round has been a cap return model so explain what that is to the 100x 100x right every round well I think some of the very early people got capped at 100x I think maybe the $30 billion round was capped at 10x so I
think the $30 billion rounds capped at a $300 million valuation meaning if you're an investor your shares go up in value till the company hits a market cap at 300 billion and then basically you're C effectively cashed out it's like you bought a share but sold a call back to the company the movie industry works this
way right you invest in a film they tell you you can make three acts and then it's over right something like that I've seen that in the independent film business yeah yeah so so in any event and I think people who invested like the $2 billion valuation were capped at like 100 billion I heard that employees who were getting stock options are capped at
100 billion or they were way back when they started graning these things so my point is that if open AI turns into one of these companies like a Google ends up in the trillion dollar Club then nobody's going to own anything because they will have already long ago well they'll keep selling new interest like the new interest will end up being like
8% no cuz what'll happen at the end is the new people that buy in at that higher price that that buy out the early investors they're getting effectively things like 8% return it turns into debt eventually turns into some I think what's really going on here is somebody has to own the residual value of the company call it the far out of the money
call that's how they get around the IRS problem of it being not Equity that's how they say that it's not equity in a private Corporation yeah but I think I's so brilliant about it is okay so look Sam set up this Foundation it's a nonprofit but he controls that effectively right y so yes he technically is not an owner of the
shares the foundation is but what can't you do with the foundation that you could do with personal ownership other than maybe buying a personal residence I mean you can buy a plane I think look at the church of Scientology they own a lot of real estate so my point is not only do I think that Sam really owns open AI
through the Fig Leaf this Foundation I think he owns 100% of it in the event that the call option is struck meaning it ends up being a trillion dollar company are are you saying Sam is elron hubber in this example let's not speculate too much oh it's just details right as V said those are just details I am speculating but I think it's informed
speculation if you wanted to become the world's first trillionaire and you were extremely uh premeditated about it clever and premeditated about it what would you do number one you would want to choose a moonshot type area that was a world changing technology AI certainly qualifies ultimate so does cold fusion maybe crypto does as I understand it Sam
has bets in all three of those areas number two you would want to figure out a way to own as much of it as you could really 100% if you could and that's a very hard thing to do when you're running a capital intensive startup but in vors tend to underestimate the power law and the value of the far out ofthe money call option so maybe you can get
them to sell that back to you really cheaply and third if you're really farsighted you would want to insulate yourself against populist Anger from being the world's first trillionaire so you would basically put your shares in a nonprofit Foundation where you're not really sacrificing that much of control or the ability to
control the asset but it gives you tremendous I this conspiracy theory where did you come up with this is this like this is genius this is genius did just you and Peter teal talk about this over chess or something how did you construct this and you're saying this is informed I love Financial conspiracy corner I think it's rival science Corner
let's get the tinfoil hats out it's really freaking Friedberg out that we're even doing this diametrically opposite to science corner is it a conspiracy or is it just reality I think if you are even 1% right the combination of lawyers and accountants that would leak this and the number of people that were part of the origination of the foundation that
would want to sue will be very high that's just the natural state of things in these kinds of things it seems like a lot easier way but what what but what have I said other than the fact that it was sort of premeditated which that's not the right word that premeditated sounds too nefarious no no no I'm I'm just saying whenever I'm just saying
whenever money is made at this Quantum and at that scale everybody wants a piece because they know that that's their one shot so I just think that it'll amplify the pressure for actors inside of those organizations to take their shot and that's just going to be financially the right thing to do for a lot of people if
if what you're saying is true we know the Investments have been made under a capit return model I think that's fact that's fact yes we know the nonprofit Foundation owns the shares that's fact and then just to put the 800B gorilla on the table like what's Elon thinking because he was the one that really got this thing off the ground because that
critical investment made the whole thing come to life he could have done this on his own yeah how much does he own zero zero I mean but after a lawsuit how much does he own I don't know uh I'm just speculating so can we talk about the technology I'll te here we go so open a released some new chat GPT features the key Point here is they're doing what's
called multimodal multimodal is the big innovation what does that mean that means the input could be voice the input could be code the input could be data uh it could be a picture here's a picture if you're watching along on the YouTube channel do a search for Allin podcast on YouTube hit subscribe hit the bell and
it's a classic picture of one of those no parking signs where there's four different ones you take a picture of that that's the input and you say it's Wednesday at 4m. can I park in the spot right now tell me in one line it comes back and says yes you can park for up to 1 hour starting at 4m. what this means is the output or the input could be in
any of those modalities modalities fancy word for an image a video Etc so you're going to be able to say hey give me the poster for the all-in conference of bestie Runner and I want it to be these things and here are the pictures of the boys and then make it and go back and forth and back and forth and this is
really groundbreaking at the same time last week goard and S deep modra and I played with this on this week in startups um you now have Google flights Google Docs Gmail and a number of the other core Google services are now inard so that's not multi- uh modal exactly um but you could do things like ask Google flights hey what is the best
non-stop you know between New York City and Dubai or from an East Coast destination that has laid down flat seats Etc and it really does uh it's starting to work so this idea that Google is going to be displaced or they're moving slow that might be Antiquated information so those are the two big big Monumental announcements
just in the last 10 days freeberg when you look at these two which one is the more important announcement and and what do you think about the pace because we here we are we're about to hit the one-year anniversary of Chad GPT 3.5 I've been using a lot of different tools the last couple of months and I'm kind of getting to the point that I feel that much of
what's happening is underhyped rather than overhyped there's some really incredible potential emerging um I'll I'll give a couple of examples and then I'll talk about the mobile phone first is uh Andre kpi as you guys see in the tweet that I just posted in the chat made a point today that llms are emerging not just as a chatbot but as a
kernel process meaning a new type of operating system that can do input and output across different modalities can interpret code can access the internet and information and then can render things in a visual way or in an audio way that the user wants to consume it so as a result llm become the core driver
to a new type of computing interface there was a paper published and I'll uh share the link to this paper here as well and we can put it in the the notes it's not worth pulling up on the screen that showed that using llms in autonomous driving can actually significantly improve the performance of the neural Nets that the autonomous cars
are trained on so the autonomous car is typically trained on a bunch of sensor data that comes in and then that sensor data determines what sort of action to take with the car and what this team showed is that if you actually put in a communication layer that thinks and talks like a human in between the sensor data and the action data it can do
really wide raging interpretations of the data that otherwise would not be apparent from the data set it was trained on so for example you can see a person down the road and ask it what do you think that person's going to do next and the llm because it's trained on a much larger Corpus of data than just sensor data from Cars it can make a
really good humanlike interpretation of that feedb decision back into the control system of the car and have the car do something more intelligently than it otherwise would have been able to do so these llms are becoming a lot more like a software um operating system and you can kind of extend that into Mobile phones mobile phones originally were
just voice and then they were single lines of text in the form of SMS then you were able to browse the web and then the app Revolution came about where all of this information emerged through apps what llms now allow perhaps is that the entire operating system of the phone can run and render any sort of application
or any sort of service or product you might want to use on the fly in Stream So the input to the phone can be voice it can be visual it can be video and the output can be rendered by perhaps a bunch of what might otherwise be called apps but call it third party developers that build in stream into that chat that's no longer looks like a chat
interface like we see on chat GPT but can be rendered visually can be rendered with audio can be rendered in a bunch of different ways so if mobile really is the dominant Tech Hardware platform that humans are using uh for computing today llms and these sorts of tools can become the dominant operating system on that hardware and you can totally rethink the
modality of how you use Computing through applications today we have an app store and we download apps and use them and that all becomes instream in an llm or or chat type interface that can be accessed in a bunch of different ways so for me there's a really bigger thing that's happening that's not just about making Smarter Tools and increasing
productivity but a real revolution in Computing itself that seems to be emergent and I think kpa's tweet this morning some of the stuff I've been playing with some of the papers I've been reading and some of the speculation around a mobile Hardware start to support that thesis and I think it's going to be really significant it's a
wholesale rewriting of computing Computing interfaces human computer interaction that's going to rethink everything and it's it seems to be um pretty substantial and and just using a bunch of tools myself I'm blown away every single time with what you can do yeah I mean right now I would agree with you strongly agree because this was some
this was magic links vision for the future which is you would talk to agents as they called them this was a a company that existed in the '90s before smartphones existed it was a physical device Sony made the device and the operating system the concept was you would say I'm looking for a flight to go to this place the agent would go out it
would do a bunch of work and then come back to you with the options so not just a Google search coming back with 10 Blue Links but actually just solving your problem and if the interface is from General magic right General magic right yeah right right and there's a movie General Magic the movie you can look at the Wikipedia uh company but this was a
lot of like the early work in this area and uh I think this is going to become the interface in lm's talking to each other then the question becomes who owns this how many of these are there are they verticalized so what what do you think the game on the field is here uh sack well I I think this is super interesting I don't know if this
qualifies as a science corner but this is the most interesting science Corner you've ever done at a minimum it's a nerd Corner yeah it's a nerd corner science Corner into into an intersecting realm so we can all be involved yeah I don't know how we crowbar an Uranus joke into this but let's let's keep our eyes
wide open here yeah okay so on the phone I think what's interesting there just to boil it down is you're talking about replacing the main interface which is currently a wall of apps right and yep you push you tap an app to go into the app and then you interact with it you're talking about replacing all that with basically voice so imagine if visual
yeah or visual if you gles to it and ra rather than double click on an app the app developers as they're call today are basically building instream utilities that are part of the chat interface that that is the phone itself and that's what's going to be so compelling you have to re like we used to write websites then we wrote apps and
now we're going to write these kind of instream services these plugins Alexa was gonna do this yeah Siri kind of sucks it just doesn't work that well but imagine if the phone perfectly understood what you were saying then you would just say call me an Uber order me food whatever Andis you would just instruct it precisely it it's
like in that movie was it her her the wae Phoenix movie God that that should have been my background today what am I thinking you've disappointed all the science Corner fans I think it's a Spike Jones movie he did a really good job with that man that movie is looking more and more like it's going happen we got to do a rewatchable on that yeah we
should rewatch it you won't even really need the pain of glass if you can just talk to it with an earpiece now I think you're right that the phone needs to know what you're looking at or it can do so much more if it has all those senses that's part of the multimodal demo that Che that open I showed this week is it
has video and it has camera inter integration and remember in human computer interaction it's often a lot easier for a human to interact with a visual representation of stuff on a screen than to hear stuff in audio so we we will still need some sort of visual display whether it's a screen or an eyass or something that shows us a bunch
of information in a way Sam apparently talk about the ecosystem he's trying to create Sam apparently invested in a company that was Hardware plus software for like journaling like you would hang like a necklace around your neck a camera type device a wearable a wearable device a wearable okay and it would record everything and it would be like
your memory backup and you'd be able to query it so that was William Gibson's uh plotline in one of his books where he had a little Zeppelin that would follow people around uh and record everything and then you'd have a DVR of your entire life and that would be completely indexed and then you could the AI would know your entire life and be able to
advise you do you guys use the feature on your airpods where if you leave them in it will read you the messages from your signal or your incoming notifications where it reads them to you obviously you don't so there's a new feature on the the airpods you leave them in and if you're working you're walking around the house or you're
walking around Manhattan like I am these last couple of days it will stop the podcast I'm listening to and just say you know oh poker group says this oh you know your wife just texted you this and it reads it to you and then you can say reply So eventually if Siri works and then you have those apple goggles on I think that that is going to be the
eventual interface which is you'll hear certain things you'll see certain things some things will be better visually other things will be better uh didn't Facebook announce a new pair of glasses today the yeah those are like their spectacle kind of things these are the light AR glasses where you can take pictures just meant to say everything's
converging a lot faster than we all yeah it is Con so I I started using a new note-taking app called reflect have you guys heard of this it's um reflecting on things whoa this is progress tell more I'm just start I'm just starting to play with it but what it does is you keep like a a daily log of who you've met with and what meetings were about so
it's basically a not taking app but it does backlinks so that it starts to link together the people and Concepts or whatever and so like the use case that I think it's quite useful for once you've been using it for a while is okay I I'm meeting with this person when's the last time I saw them what do we talk about then so
it gives you like context yeah yeah that's awesome I really like it's external memory right because like I can't I'm like I'm deluged with so much stuff now I can't even like I forget people's names sometimes if I've only met him once or twice so his name is freberg David freeberg name yeah not you guys but no it's also getting old you're
sure it's a function of how much input is coming at you there's just so much coming at us today right but but just just having a short log of who I've met with and briefly what the meeting was about so I can go back and check it and at some point in the future I've search against it but the only problem with it
is I do have to like take the time to enter all this stuff and it's kind of a pain it it could just be done for me automatically like a true external hard drive to my brain then that would be very powerful it'll authenticate with slack and Gmail and do that automatically and then you'll it'll be otherworldly it already connects with uh
Google I don't want my slack in my reflect what I want is my meetings which they do they integrate with Google Calendar great and really that's it like the the main thing I want is if I could just know everyone I talk to and I don't need a transcript I just need the log line just so I can remember I just need the prompt six months from now I just
need a prompt that I met with this person and here was the topic that's it SX have you gone to the uh have you Bill clintoned your greetings now it's great see you great to see you that's the great that's the great thing like it's great to see you so that you know you preserve optionality for the people you have do the same thing so good it's
great to see you we've never met but it's great to great to see great to see you is they always say great to see you adop that it's such a banger to I when I met uh Clinton I was at a Hillary Clinton fundraiser when she was a Senator here in New York and they sent you up an elevator to this fundraiser and uh you get off the
elevator and Bill Clinton is standing there and he walks up to me like three steps oh J Cal it's great to see you and he grabs your elbow he shakes I am so happy for what you did to help Hillary win and uh you know Jason we're so appreciative and then you know you walk into the room and I'm like oh my God Bill Clinton Knows My Name totally then
I look behind me and I see the next person I see a woman come out with a clipboard whisper in his ear the per next person's name coming out of the elevator he's waiting that person disappears oh David Sachs it's so great to meet you ah really appreciate everything you've done for Hillary you know that role of whispering the name of
a person in the politician's ear goes all the way back to Roman times it was called the nomenclatura the nomenclatura Gomen is the Latin word for name sure it's a how often I call it the name hey sex let me ask a question how often do you about the Roman Empire just broadly speaking was that a grous reference I
thought that was I thought so yeah it's pretty great it's pretty great I'm just glad that the rest of the world is is catching up to our obsession with gladiator or listen this has been an amazing episode 4 the dictator himself jamath potia and Rainman yeah definitely burn baby David Sachs and the Sultan of science the queen of quinoa the prince
of panic attacks and the heir to the Ted Throne the cre creator of the world's greatest conference David freeberg I am the world's greatest moderator we'll see you next time all in byebye bye bye love you Ted's dad Ted's dead Ted's dead baby Ted's dead baby let your Winner's ride Rainman David we open source it to the fans and
they've just gone crazy with it love you queen of K going [Music] besties are that's my dog taking driveway oh man myit will meet me at we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy cuz they're all this useless it's like this like sexual tension that they just need to release [Music] somehow your we need to get [Music] mer going all [Music] in