is anybody else seeing a half a second lag with jaycal or like a second line test test one two one two from like the way his mouth moves well that always happens oh God here it comes his mouth never stops moving black sex relaxed sex are we going are we recording are you ready to go this is a plus material all right let's
go this is Chappelle at the punch line let's go let's go [Music] [Music] all right everybody Welcome to episode 111 of the world's greatest podcasts according to slate the podcast that shall not be mentioned by the Press apparently you know what do you mean they just did a profile on us well they did this is the conundrum it's so much of a phenomenon that we're
the number one business and the number one Tech podcast in the world hands down that the Press has a hard time giving us any Oxygen because they want to hate us they want to cover it you're saying they take the ideas but not the they don't want to cite it they don't want to cite it they don't want to cite it but anyway shout out to Slade yeah what I thought
was interesting was the guy pointed out that we don't want to subject ourselves to Independent journalists asking us independent questions therefore we go direct and that that's kind of the the thing nowadays when everyone says they want to go direct it's because they don't want to be subject to Independent journalists well one might ask
themselves why subjects don't want to go direct yeah exactly you mean don't want to go to journalists yeah because it there's a there's a specific reason why principles the subject of stories do not want to have the Press interpret what they're saying is because they don't feel they're getting a fair shake they feel like the challenge is
that then we avoid independent scrutiny of our points of view and our decisions they're constantly writing hip pieces about us the the question is when we want to present our side of it do we need to go through their filter or not why would you go through their filter when it's always going to be a hit piece right well I mean they have a class hatred
of basically of Technology entrepreneurs and investors you're right Jake how they don't hate you because you genuflect to their political biases you see if if you do if you do what SPF did which is basically agree with all of their biases then yes they'll treat you better that's the deal that's how it works a specific large media outlets right she's not referring to Fox News
okay you can name one I'll trade you I'll tell you what I'll trade you fox for MSNBC and CNN and the New York Times The Washington Post and the Atlantic Magazine on and on and on you get a lot of mileage out of being able to name Fox the fact of the matter is Megan Callie that's a podcaster she's independent now that's true you can name one I mean
literally one Outlet that is not part of this you know mainstream media and they all think the same way there are very small differences the way they think that's true it's all about clicks uh at this point and it's all about journalism and advocacy well you're calling advocacy is bias and activism it's activism it's that's what I'm talking about activism journalism
yes I think the Draymond also highlights a really important point which is you know he started his podcast it's become one of the most popular forms of sports media and he can speak directly without the filtering and you know classification that's done by the you know journalist and it seems to be a really powerful Trend the audience
really wants to hear direct and they want to hear unfiltered Raw point of view and there and maybe there's still a role for I think the journalism separate from that which is to then scrutinize and analyze and question and it's not journalism to activism they're just activists there are also journalists out there sites right so actually well it depends
what the topic is and what the outlet is right but I I actually I would argue that most of these journalists are doing what they're doing for the same reason that we're doing what we're doing which is they want to have some kind of influence because they don't get paid very much right but the way they have influence is to push a specific
political agenda I mean they're activists they're basically artists become advocacy journalism yes that's the term I coin for it it's advocacy you guys see this brouhaha where Matt Iglesias wrote this article about the fed and about the debt ceiling and through this whole multi-hundred word thousand word tome he didn't understand the difference
between a percentage point and the basis points yeah I did see that yeah wow so wait a second you're saying the fed's raising 25 percent that's a huge difference between my mortgage is coming up 25 between a principal and an outside analyst right like a principal has a better grasp typically of the topic than the material but you know the argument
within the journalist Circle he's considered the conventional wisdom I get it but the argument from a journalist is that by having that direct access that person is also biased because they're an agent because they're a player on the field they do have a point of view and they do have a Direction they want to take things so it is a fair commentary
that journalists can theoretically play a role which if they're an off-field analyst and that don't necessarily bring I would argue they're less educated and more biased than we are that may or may not be true what the two of you guys are debating which is a very subjective take but the thing that is categorical and you can't deny is that there is zero
checks and balances when something as simple as the basis point percentage Point difference isn't caught in proofreading isn't caught by any editor isn't taught by the people that you know help them review this and so what that says is all kinds of trash must get through because there's no way for the average person on Twitter to police all
of this nonsensical content this one was easy because it was so numerically illiterate that it just stood out but can you imagine the the number of unforced Errors journalists make today in their search for clicks that don't get caught out that may actually tip somebody to think a versus B that's I think the thing that's kind of undeniable right yeah
there's a very simple test for this if you read uh the journalists writing about a topic you are an expert on whatever the topic happens to be you start to understand okay well on that story I'm reading that they understand about 10 or 20 or 30 percent of what's going on but then when you read stories that you're not involved in you know you read
a story about Hollywood or I don't know pick an industry or a region you're not super aware of you're like okay well that must be 100 correct and the truth is journalists have access to them there is a name for it yeah it's called the Gelman Amnesia effect you just plagiarize Michael Crichton who came up with that yeah so you yeah no it's
exactly right but I think it's worse than that it's because now the now the mistakes aren't being driven just by sloppiness or laziness or just a lack of expertise I think it's being driven by an agenda so just to give you an example on the Slate thing the Slate article actually wasn't bad it kind of made us seem you know cool the sub
headline was a close listen to all in the infuriating fascinating safe space for silicon Valley's money men okay but the the headline changed so I don't know if you guys noticed this the headline now is Elon musk's Inner Circle is telling us exactly what it thinks first of all like they're trying for clicks yeah so they're trying way too hard to
like describe Us in terms of Elon which you know is maybe two episodes out of 110 but before inner circle the word they used was cronies and then somebody edited it because I saw cronies in like one of those tweet you know summaries you know where like it does a capsule or whatever yeah yeah and those get Frozen in time so you know they were
trying to bash us even harder and then somebody took another look at it and turned it down I'll tell you what happens in the editorial process whoever writes the article the article gets submitted maybe it gets edited proof read whatever maybe it doesn't even in some Publications they don't have the time for it because they're in a race then they pick there's somebody who's
really good at social media they pick six or seven headlines they a B test them and they even have software for this where they will run a test sometimes they'll do a pay test they put five dollars in ads on social media whichever one performs the best that's the one they go with so it's even more cynical and because people who read the headlines
sometimes they don't read the story right obviously most people just see the headline they interpret that as a story that's why I told you when they did that new Republic piece on you with that horrific monstrous monstrosity of an illustration don't worry about it people just read the headline they know you're important nobody reads the story anyway no but it
wasn't a bad article actually it was well written actually I was in shock I was like who is this writer that actually took the time to write some prose that was actually decent yeah he had listened to a lot of episodes clearly that was a really good moment actually that was great advice because you gave it to him and you gave it to me
because both of us had these things and Jason said the same thing just look at the picture and if you're okay with the picture just move on and I thought this can't be true and it turned out to mostly be true yeah but my picture was terrible yeah but it's close to reality oh wow but that just shows how ridiculously biased it is right Hugh Grant Elon let's pull that up one
more time here Elon looks like Hugh Grant that's just kind of he does kind of not bad kind of looks like Hugh Grant and like Notting Hill I knew that article was going to be fine when the first you know item they presented as evidence of me doing something wrong was basically helping to oust chase a boudin which was something that was supported
by like 70 of San Francisco yeah which is a 90 Democratic City so not exactly evidence of some you know right-wing movement look at the headline the quiet political rise of David sacks silicon Valley's prophet of urban Doom I'm just letting you know people don't get past the sixth word in the image yeah that's 99 of people are like oh my
God congrats on the you know Republic article it could have literally been Laurel what do they call them uh Laurel lipsums you know like it could have just been filler words from their second graph down and nobody would know yeah but now apparently if you notice that San Francisco streets look like you know Walking Dead that apparently you're a
prophet of urban do I mean people are so out of touch I mean they can't even acknowledge what people can see with their own eyes that's the bias that's gotten crazy and I don't know if you guys saw this really horrible dystopian video of an art gallery owner who's been dealing with owning a storefront in San Francisco which is challenging and having to clean up
feces and you know trash and whatever uh every day and I guess the guy snapped and he's hosing down a homeless person who refuses to leave the front of a store oh I saw that I saw just like the humanity in this is just insane like really like you're hosing a human being down it's terrible who is obviously not living a great life and is you know
I can feel for both of them I agree that it's not good to hose a human being down on the other hand think about the sense of frustration that store owner has because he's watching his business go in the toilet because he's got homeless people living in front of him so they're both like being mistreated the homeless person say more the the homeless person is
being mistreated the Stormer is being mistreated by the city of San Francisco yeah is not in a privileged position that person probably the store owner the store owner he's probably fighting to stay in business I'm just saying I'm not saying that's right but no no I'm laying the Rope you're trying to do what you're trying
to do is oh my God look at this this homeless person being horribly oppressed no that store owner is a victim too oh yeah there's no doubt it's horrible to run a business what is that person supposed to do no wait this is this is symbolic of the breaking down of basic Society like these both of these people are obviously like it's just a horrible
moment to even witness it's like oh he it's like something Jason do you have equal empathy for the store owner and the homeless person or no under no circumstances should you hose a person down in the face who is homeless like it's just horrific to watch it's just inhumane this is a human being now but as a person who owns a store yeah my dad grew up in the local business if
people were abusing The Story You're trying to make a living and you've got to clean up you know whatever excrement every day which is terrific yes and this is dystopian look in that moment the empathy is not equal I think you have more empathy obviously for the person on the receiving end of that hose okay but in general our society has tons of
empathy for homeless people we spend billions of dollars trying to solve that problem you never hear a thing about the store owners who are going out of business so on a societal level you know not in that moment but in general the lack of empathy is for these middle class store owners who may not be middle class working class who are struggling
to stay afloat and you look at something like what is it like a quarter or a third of the store fronts instead Francisco are now vacant the city yes this person is running the shocking thing is like this person is running an art gallery storefront in San Francisco like why would you even bother why would you bother to have a storefront in San
Francisco I mean everybody's left it's just what do you mean why do you bother if you soap into stores so what are you supposed to start to code all of a sudden well no I mean you would shut it down at some point and find an exit and do it has large fixed costs right 10 years ago exactly at some point you have to shut down your story in San
Francisco the second you can get out of the solution to everything jcal isn't go to coding school online and then you know I didn't say it was I'm just but moving to another city is a possibility oh true a lot of folks in Silicon Valley I think in this weirdly [ __ ] up way do believe the solution to everything is learn to code or it's an Uber driver yeah
get a gig job get a gig years the guy spent years building his retail business I mean the thing is English person camps in front and the homeless and he calls the the police the police don't come and move the homeless person the homeless person stays there he asks nicely to move customers are uncomfortable going into store as a result yeah I stopped
going to certain stores in my neighborhood because of homeless tents being literally fixated in front of the store and I go to the store down the road to get my groceries or whatever like I mean it's not a kind of uncommon situation for a lot of these small business owners they don't own the real estate they're paying rent uh they've got high labor costs you know
everything's inflating generally city populations declining it's a brutal situation all around I think if everybody learns to code or drives an Uber the problem is that in the absence of things like local stores and small businesses you hollow out communities you've got these random detached places where you kind of live and then you sit
in your house which becomes a prison while you order food from an app every day I don't think that is the society that people want so I don't know I kind of want small businesses to exist and I think that the homeless person should be taken care of but the small business person should have the best chance of trying to be successful because it's
hard enough as it is the the mortality rate of the of the small business owner is already 90 percent it's impossible in San Francisco let's just be honest I'm not trying to push people listen yeah you are because here here's something I'm saying the guy I'm just shocked that the guy even has a storefront I would have left alone you're showing a tweet that's a moment
in time and you're not showing the 10 steps that led up to it oh a thousand steps five times he called the police station customers the stuff that free burgers were just talking about or maybe there was physical conflict that we didn't see in that you know and he's resolving it man it's really hard to look at these videos and know what's going on it's
awful to see but man we don't know it's the whole thing actually you want to know another reason why we can't solve this problem this is the language we use around it the fundamental problem here is not homeless no it's addiction it's addiction because and it's mental illness shellenberger's done the work it's like he said 99 of the people he
talks to it's either mental illness or addiction but we keep using this word homeless to describe the problem right but the issue here is not the lack of of housing although that's a separate at problem in California but it's basically the lack of of treatment totally so we should be calling them treatmentless and mandates around this because and
enforcement you you cannot you can't have a super drug be available for a nominal price and give people you know a bunch of money to come here and take it and not enforce it you have to draw the line that's at fentanyl I'm sorry fentanyl is a super drug there's three Alternatives is mandated rehab mandated mental health uh or jail or you
know Housing Services if you're not breaking the law you don't have mental illness you don't have drug addiction and then provide those are the four Paths of outcome here of success and if all four of those paths were both mandated and available in abundance this could be a attractable problem unfortunately the man the Mandate I mean you guys remember that Kevin Bacon movie
where Kevin Bacon was locked up in a mental institution but he wasn't like he wasn't mentally ill it's a famous story you guys someone's probably gonna call me an idiot for for messing this whole thing up but I think um there's a there's a story where mandated Mental Health Services like locking people up to take care of them when they
have mental uh mental health issues like this became kind of inhumane and a lot of the institutions were shut down and a lot of the laws were overturned and there are many of these cases that happened where they came across as like torturous to what happened to people that weren't mentally ill and so the idea was like let's just development
yeah well that's another one right and it's unfortunate but I think that there's some you know we talk a lot about nuance and gray areas but there's certainly some solution here that isn't black or white it's not about not having mandated Mental Health Services and it's not about locking everyone up that has some slight problem but there's some
solution here that needs to be crafted uh where you know you don't let people suffer and you don't let people suffer both as the the victim on the street but also talking about a 5150 I think like when people are held but because they're a danger to themselves or others kind of thing right but Jacob think about the power of language here if we refer to
these people as untreated persons instead of homeless persons and that was the coverage 24 7 in the media is this is an untreated person the whole policy prescription would be completely different we'd realize there's a shortage of treatment we'd realize there's a shortage of Remedies related to getting people in treatment as
opposed to building housing but why why and laws that mandate it that don't enable it because if you don't mandate it then you enable the free reign and the free living on the street and the open drug markets and all this sort of stuff there's a really easy test for this if it was if it was yourself and you were addicted or if it was a loved one it's one of
your immediate family members would you want yourself or somebody else to be picked up off the street and held with a 5150 or whatever code involuntarily against their will because they were a danger would you want them to be allowed to remain on the street would you want yourself if you were in that Dire Straits and the answer of course is you
would want somebody what's interesting policy perspective on this Jake house so let me ask you as our uh our Die Hard liberal on the show no I'm not a die-hard liberal no no he's an independent only votes for Democrats please get it right 75 of the time I voted Democrat 25 right independent of us are Democrats okay 25 Republicans is it not that your individual liberties
are infringed upon if you were to be quote picked up and put away you know my position on it is if you're not thinking straight uh you're in you're high on fentanyl you're not thinking for yourself and you you could lose the liberty for a small period of time 72 hours a week you know especially if you're a danger to somebody you know
yourself or other people and in this case if you're on fentanyl if you're on meth you're you're a danger I mean I think if more I think if some people have that if more people have that point of view and have that debate as sax is saying in a more open way you could get to some path to resolution on just not in San Francisco it's not how it happened so
you guys know this we won't say who it is but someone in my family has some pretty severe mental health issues and the problem is because they're an adult you can't get them to get any form of treatment whatsoever right right do you only have the nuclear option and the nuclear option is you basically take that person to court and try to seize
their power of attorney which is essentially saying that you know individual liberties are gone yeah and by the way it is so unbelievably restrictive what happens if you lose that power of attorney and somebody else has it over you it's just a huge burden that the legal system makes extremely difficult and the throttle law is a backstop you know if the person's
committing something illegal like camping out or doing fentanyl math whatever you can use the law as the backstop you know all that person can do is really get arrested even that is not a high enough bar to actually get power of attorney over somebody the other thing that I just wanted you guys to know I think you know this but just a little historical
context is a lot of this crisis in mental health started because Reagan defunded all the psychiatric hospitals he emptied them in California and that compounded because for whatever reason his ideology was that these things should be treated in a different way and when he got to the presidency one of the things that he did was he
repealed the mental health I think it's called the mental health systems Act mhsa which completely broke down some pretty Landmark legislation on mental health and it's and I don't think we've ever really recovered and that we're now 42 years onward from 1980 but or 43 years onward but just something for you guys to know that that's that's well that
breaking had a lot of positives yeah but that's one definitely negative check in my book against his legacy is his stance on Mental Health in general and what he did to defund mental health well let me let me make a couple two points there so I'm I'm not defending that specific decision there were a bunch of scandals in the 1970s and epitomized by the movie
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nestle Jack Nicholson about the conditions in these mental health homes and that did create a Groundswell to change laws around that but I think this idea that like somehow Reagan is to blame when he hasn't been in office for 50 years as opposed to the politicians who've been in office for the last 20 years I just think it's
letting them off the hook I mean Gavin Newsom 10 15 years ago when he was mayor of San Francisco declared that he would end homelessness within 10 years he just made another declaration like that as Governor so I just feel like not saying it's Reagan's fault I'm just saying it's an interesting historical moment I think it's letting I think it's letting the
politics Society needs to start thinking about changing priorities we didn't have this problem of massive numbers of people living on the streets 10 15 years ago it was a much smaller problem and I think a lot of it has to do with fentanyl the power of these drugs is increased yes massively there's other things going on here so in any event I mean you can question
what Reagan did in light of current conditions but I think this problem really started in the last 10 15 years yes like in in an order of magnitude bigger way these are super drugs until people realize like these are a different class of drugs and they start treating them as such it's gonna just get worse as far as I know Reagan didn't hand out
to these addicts 800 a week to feed their addiction so they can live on the street San Francisco that is the current policy of the city all I just wanted to just provide was just that color that we had a system of funding for the mental health infrastructure particularly local mental health infrastructure and we took that back and
then we never came forward and all I was saying is I'm just telling you I think that's part of the solution here is yeah we're going to have to basically build up shelters we're going to build up and support the problem now for example is Gavin Newsom says a lot of these things and now he's gone from a massive Surplus to a 25 billion dollar deficit overnight
which we talked about even a year ago because that was just the the law of numbers catching up with the state of California and he's not in a position now to do any of this stuff so this one this problem may get worse well they did they did appropriate I forget the number it's like 10 billion or something out of that you know huge budget they had to
solve the problem of homelessness so I would just argue they're not tackling it in the right way because what happened is there's a giant special interest that formed around this problem which is the the building industry who gets these contracts to build the quote you know affordable housing or this industrial complex so they end up building 10 units at a
time on Venice Beach like the most expensive land you could possibly build because you get these contracts from the government so there's now a giant special interest in lobby that's formed around this if you really want to solve the problem you wouldn't be building housing on Venice Beach you'd be going to cheap land just outside the city
totally and you'd be building scale shelters I mean shelters that can house 10 000 people not ten and you'd be having treatment services but with treatment built into them right you'll be solving this problem at scale and that's not what they're doing by the way do I do you guys want to hear it this week in grift oh sure we're all
in that's a great example of grift I um I read something today in Bloomberg that was unbelievable there's about two trillion dollars of debt owned by the developing world that has been classified by a non-profit The Nature Conservancy in this case as eligible for what they called nature swaps so this is two trillion of the umpteen trillions of debt that's about
to get defaulted on by come countries like Belize Ecuador Sri Lanka Seychelles you name it and what happens now are the big bulge bracket Wall Street Banks and The Nature Conservancy goes to these countries and says listen you know you have a billion dollar tranche of debt that's about to go upside down and you're going to be in default with
the IMF we'll let you off the hook and you know we will negotiate with those bondholders to give them 50 cents on the dollar but in return you have to promise to take some of that savings and you know protect the rain forest or protect a coral reef or protect some mangrove trees all sounds good except then what these folks do is they
take that repackage debt they call it ESG they mark it back up and then they sell it to folks like BlackRock who have decided that they must own this in the portfolio so it literally just goes from one sleeve of BlackRock which is now marked toxic Emerging Market debt and then it gets into someone's 401K as ESG debt is that unbelievable so you convert
your signal and buy some ESG to make yourself feel good yeah two trillion dollars ESG is that Exxon is like the number seven like top ranked company according to ESG and Tesla is even on the list disastrous how crazy is that it's it's a complete game yeah all of those that we've said this many times but each of those letters individually means so much
and should be worth a lot to a lot of people but when you stick them together it creates this toxic soup where you can just hide the cheese yeah I mean governance is important in companies of course the environment is important social change is important I mean but why are these things grouped together in this it just perverts it's an industry Jacob it's an industry
absolutely all right Speaking of Chris um Microsoft is going to put 10 billion dollars or something into chat GPT degenerate AI as I'm calling it now is uh the hottest thing in soccer Valley the technology is incredible I mean you you can question the business model maybe but the technology is pretty well I mean yeah so what I'd say is a 29
billion dollars for a company that's losing a billion dollars on Azure credits a year that's one way to work at it that's also look at a lot of other businesses that ended up being worth a lot down the road I mean sure you can model out the future of a business like this and create a lot of really compelling big outcomes you know
potentially yeah so Microsoft is close to investing 10 million and open AI in a very convoluted transaction that people are trying to understand it turns out that they might wind up owning 59 of open AI but get 75 percent of the cashing properties back over time 49 49 yeah of open AI but they would get paid back the 10 million dollars over some
amount of time and this obviously includes Azure credits uh and chat GPT as everybody knows this um just incredible demonstration of what AI can do in terms of text-based creation of content and answering queries is taken the net by storm people are really inspired by it sax do you think that this is a defensible real technology do you think this is like a
crazy hype cycle well it's definitely the next VC hype cycle everyone's kind of glomming on to this because VC really right now needs a savior just look at the public markets everything we're investing in is in the toilet so we all really want to believe that this is going to be the next wave and just because something is a vce hype
cycle doesn't mean that it's not true so as I think one of our friends pointed out you know mobile turned out to be very real I think cloud turned out to be I'd say very real social was sort of real in the sense that did lead to a few big winners on the other hand web 3 and crypto was a hype Cyclone it's turned into a big bust VR falls into the hype
cycle it's probably a hype cycle so far no one can even explain what web3 is in terms of AI I think that if I had to guess I would say the hype is real in terms of its technological potential however I'm not sure about how much potential there is yet for VCS to participate because right now it seems like this is something that's going to be done by really big companies so open
AI is basically a it looks like kind of a Microsoft proxy you've got Google I'm sure will develop it through their deep mine asset you know I'm sure Facebook is going to do something huge in AI so what I don't know is is this really a platform that starts gonna be able to benefit from I will say that some of the companies we've invested in
are starting to use these tools so I guess I guess where I am is I think the technology is actually exciting I wouldn't go overboard on the valuations so I wouldn't buy into that level of the hype but you think there could be hundreds of companies built around an API for something like chat gbt Dolly maybe yeah I don't I don't think
startups are going to be able to create the AI themselves but they might be able to benefit from the apis maybe that's the thing that has to be proven out there's a lot of really fantastic machine learning services available through Cloud vendors today right so as there has been one of these kind of vendors and uh obviously open AI is building tools a little bit
further down on the the stack but there's a lot of tooling that can be used for specific vertical applications obviously the acquisition of instabeat by bioentec is a really solid example and most of the big dollars that are flowing in biotech right now are flowing into machine learning applications where there's some vertical application of
machine learning tooling and techniques around some specific problem set and the problem set of mimicking human communication and doing generative media is a consumer application set that has a whole bunch of really interesting product opportunities but let's not kind of be blind to the fact that nearly every other industry and nearly every other
vertical is being transformed today and there's active progress being made in funding and getting liquidity on companies and progress with actual products being driven by Machine learning systems and there's a lot of great examples of this so you know the fundamental capabilities of large data sets and then using these kind of learning techniques in software and
statistical models to make kind of predictions and drive businesses forward in a way that they're not able to with just human knowledge and human capability alone is really uh real and it's here today and so I think let's not get caught up in the fact that there's this really interesting consumer Market hype cycle going on where these tools are not being
kind of you know validated and generating real value across many other verticals and segments when you look at this Microsoft open aidl and you see something that's this convoluted hard to understand what does that signal to you as a capital allocator and Company Builder I would put deals into two categories one is easy and
straightforward and then two is you know cute by half or you know the two heart bucket this is clearly in that second category but it doesn't mean that is it in that category well it doesn't mean that it won't work in our group chat with the rest of the guys one person said there's a lot of complex law when you go from a non-profit to a for-profit there's lots
of complexity in Deal construction the original investors have certain things that they want to see there may or may not be you know legal issues at play here that you encapsulated well in the last episode I think there's a lot of stuff we don't know so I think it's important to just like give those folks the benefit of the doubt but yeah if you're asking me
it's in the too hard bucket for me to really take seriously now that being said it's not like I I got shown the deal so I can't I can't comment here's what I will say the first part of what Sac said I think is really important for entrepreneurs to internalize which is where can we make money the reality is that well let me just take a prediction I
think that Google will open source their models because the most important thing that Google can do is reinforce the value of search and the best way to do that is to Scorch the Earth with these models which is to make them widely available and as free as possible that will cause Microsoft to have to catch up and that will cause Facebook to
have to really look in the mirror and decide whether they're going to cap the betting that they've made on AR VR and reallocate very aggressively to AI I mentioned this in the I did this Lex Friedman podcast but that should be what Facebook does and and the reason is if Facebook and Google and Microsoft have roughly the same capability in the
same model there's an element of machine learning that I think is very important which is called reinforcement learning and specifically it's reinforcement learning from Human feedback right so these rlhf pipelines these are the things that will make your stuff unique so if you're a startup you can build a reinforcement learning pipeline how you
build a product that captures a bunch of usage we talked about this before that data set is unique to you as a company you can feed that into these models get back better answers you can make money from it Facebook has an enormous amount of reinforcement learning inside of Facebook every click every comment every like every share Twitter has that data set Google inside
of Gmail and search Microsoft inside of Minecraft and Hotmail so my point is David's right the huge companies I think will create the substrates and I think they'll be forced to Scorch the Earth and give it away for free and then on top of that is where you can make money and I would just encourage entrepreneurs to think where is my Edge
in creating a data set that I can use for reinforcement learning that I think is interesting that's kind of saying I buy the ingredients from the supermarket but then I can still construct a dish that's unique and you know the salt is there the pepper is there but how I use that will determine whether you like the thing or not and I think that you know
that is the way that I think we need to start thinking about it interestingly as we've all pointed out here open AI was started as a non-profit the stated philosophy was this technology is too powerful for any company to own therefore we're going to make it open source and then somewhere in the last couple years they said well you know
what actually it's too powerful for it to be out there in the public we need to make this a private company and we need to get 10 billion dollars from Microsoft that is the the disconnect I am trying to understand that's the most interesting part of the story Jason I think if you go back to 2014 is when Google bought deepmind yeah and immediately everyone started
reacting to a company as powerful as Google having a toolkit and a team as powerful as deepmind within them and that that sort of power should not sit in anyone's hands I heard people that I'm close with that are close to the organization and the company comment that they thought this is the most kind of scary threatening biggest threat to
humanity uh is Google's control of deep mind and that was a naive kind of point of view but it was one that was close that was deeply held by a lot of people so Reid Hoffman Peter Thiel Elon Musk a lot of these guys funded the original kind of open AI business in 2015 and here's the link so I'm putting it out here um you guys can pull up the
original blog post do all those don't people who donated get stock it was all in a non-profit and then the non-profit owned stock in a commercial business now but your point is interesting because at the beginning the idea was instead of having Google on all of this we'll make it all available and here's the the statement from the
original blog post in 2015 open AI is a non-profit AI research company our goal is to advance digital intelligence in the way that is most likely to benefit Humanity as a whole unconstrained by a need to generate Financial return since our research is free from Financial Obligations we can better focus on a positive human impact and they you know
kind of went on and the whole thing about Sam Greg Elon Reed Jessica Peter Thiel AWS YC are all donating to support open AI including donations and commitments of over a billion dollars although we expect that to only be a tiny fraction of what we will spend in the next few years which is a really interesting kind of if you look back historical perspective on
how this thing all started seven years ago and how quickly it's evolved as you point out into the necessity to have a real commercial alignment to drive this thing forward without seeing any of these models open sourced and during that same same period of time we've seen Google share Alpha fold and share a number of tensorflow predictive models and and
Tool kits and make them publicly available and put them in Google's cloud and so there's both kind of tooling and models and outputs of those models that Google has open sourced and made freely available and meanwhile openai has kind of diverged into this deeply profitable profit-seeking kind of Enterprise model and when you invest in open AI
in the round that they did before you could generate a financial return capped at 100x which is still a pretty amazing Financial return you put a billion dollars in you can make 100 billion dollars that's that's funding a real commercial Endeavor at that point well and then to it is the most striking question about this whole thing about
what's going on in our Ai and it's one that elon's talked about publicly and others have kind of sat on one side or the other which is that AI offers a glimpse into one of the biggest and most kind of existential threats to humanity and the question we're all going to be tackling and the battle that's going to be happening politically
and Regulatory wise and perhaps even between nations in the years to come is who owns the AI who owns the models what can they do with it and what are we legally going to be allowed to do with it and this is a really important part of that story yeah to build on what you're saying I just put in pie torch people don't know that's another framework uh p-y-t-o-r-c-h
this was you know largely built inside of Facebook and then Facebook said hey we want to democratize machine learning and they made and I think they put a bunch of Executives they may have even funded those Executives to go work on this open source project so they have a huge stake in this and they went very uh open source with it and then
tensorflow which you have an investment in Tremont tensorflow was inside I don't I don't have a investment in tensorflow we've no tensorflow the public Source came out of Google and then you invested in another company but we we're building silicon for machine learning that's different right but it's based on tensorflow no no no no no it the the the founder of
this company was the founder of tensorflow oh got it okay all right no sorry not a tensorflow part of me of the of TPU which was Google's internal silicon that they built to accelerate tensorflow right if that makes sense and so that's the I you know I don't mean to be cynical about the whole project or not it's just the confounding part of this of what is happening here
it reminds me I don't know if you remember this the biggest opportunity to hear the biggest opportunity here is for Facebook I mean they need to get in this conversation ASAP I mean to to think that like look pytorch was like a pretty seminal piece of technology that a lot of folks in in Ai and machine learning were using for a long time
tensorflow before that and what's so funny about like Google and Facebook is they're a little bit kind of like they're not really making that much progress I mean Facebook released this kind of like Rando version of alpha fold recently it's not that good I think these companies really need to get these products in the wild as soon
as possible it cannot be the case that you have to email people and get on some list I mean this is Google and Facebook guys come on this is the I think the big innovation of open AI sax to bring you in the conversation they actually made an interface and let the public play with it to the tune of three million dollars a day in Cloud credits or costs
which by the way just on that my my son was telling me he's like hey Dad do you want me to tell you when the best time to use chat gbt is I'm like huh he's like yeah my friends and I have tried we've been using it so much we know now when we can actually get resources oh wow and it's such an interesting thing where like a 13 year old kid knows you
know when it's mostly compute intensive that it's unusable and when to come back and use it when's the last time Sachs a technology became this mainstream and captured people's imagination this broadly maybe the iPhone or something yeah yeah look it's it's powerful there's there's no question it's powerful I mean I I'm of two minds about it because whenever
something is the hype cycle I just reflexively want to be skeptical of it but on the other hand we have made a few investments in this area and I mean I think it is powerful and it's it's going to be an enabler of some really cool things to come there's no question about it I have two pieces of more Insider information uh one I have a chat GPT IOS
app on my phone one of the nice Folks at openai included me in the test flight and it's the simplest interface you've ever seen but basically you type in your question but it keeps your history and then you can search your history so it looks sacks like you're in iMessage basically and it has your threads and so I asked them hey what are the best
restaurants in yawnville yeah a town near um Napa and then I said which one has the best duck and it literally like gave me a great answer and then I thought wait a second why is this not using a Siri or alexa-like interface and then why isn't it oh here's a video of it I gave the video to Nick by the way Jason this what you're doing right now
is you're creating a human feedback reinforcement learning pipeline for chat GPT so just the fact that you asked that question and you know over time if chat GPT has access to your GPS information and then knows that you went to restaurant a versus B they can Intuit and it may actually prompt you to ask hey Jason we noticed you were in the
area did you go to Bottega if you did how would you rate it one through five that reinforcement learning now allows the next person that asks what are the top five restaurants to say well you know over a thousand people that have asked this question here's actually the best answer versus a generic rank of the open web which is what the first data
set is that's what's so interesting about this so this is why if you're a company that already owns the eyeballs you have to be running to get this stuff out there well and then this answer uh and you know cited Yelp well this is the first time I've actually seen chat GPT site and this is I think a major legal breakthrough it didn't put a link in but
if it's going to use yelp's data I don't know if that permission for me out but it's quoting Yelp here it should link to French Laundry Bottega and Bouchon Bouchon actually has the best confit for the record and I did have that duck so I asked this afterwards to see you know in a scenario like this but it could also if I was talking to it I
could say hey which one has availability this afternoon or tomorrow for dinner and make the phone call for me like Google Assistant does or any number of I was thinking about next tasks this was an incredibly powerful display in a 1.0 product I was thinking about what you said last week and I thought back to the music industry in in the world of Napster
and what happened was there was a lot of musicians I think Metallica being the most famous One famously suing Napster because it was like Hey listen like you're allowing people to take my content which they would otherwise pay for there's economic damage that I could measure that legal argument was meaningful enough that ultimately Napster was shut down now there were
other versions of that that folks created including us at Winamp we created a headless version of that but if you translate that problem set here is there a claim that Yelp can make in this example that they're losing money that you know if you were going through Google or if you're going through their app there's the sponsored link revenue and
the advertising Revenue that they would have got that they wouldn't get from here now that doesn't mean that chat GPT can't figure that out but it's those kinds of problems that are going to be a little thorny in these next few years that have to really get figured out reading every review on Yelp about duck then you could write a blog post in
which you say many reviewers on Yelp say that Bouchon is the best doc so the question is like is GPT held to that standard or exactly or something different and as linking to it is linking to it enough this is the question that I'm asking I don't know it should be because I'll argue it should be because if you look at the four-part test for fair use
which I had to go through because blogging had the same issue we would write a blog post and we would mention Walt mossberg's review of a product in somebody else's and then people would say oh I don't need to read Walt mossberg's in need of Wall Street Journal subscription and we say well we're doing an original work we're comparing two or three different
you know human is comparing two or three different reviews and we're adding something to it it's a you know it's not a uh it's not interfering with Walt mossberg's ability to get subscribers in the Wall Street Journal but the effect on the potential Market is one of the four tests and uh just reading from Stanford's uh quote on fair
use another important fair use factor is whether you're used deprives the copyright owner of income or undermines a new or potential market for the copyrighted work depriving a copyright owner of income is very likely to trigger a lawsuit this is true even if you are not competing directly with the original work and we'll put the link to Stanford here
this is the key issue and I would not use Yelp in this example I would not open the Yelp app Yelp get no Commerce can Yelp would lose this so chat GPT and all these Services must use citations of where they got the original work they must link to them and they must get permission that's where this is all going to shake out but forget about permission I mean you
can't get a big enough data set if you have to get permission in advance right yeah it's it's going to be the large data sets quora Yelp the App Store reviews Amazon's reviews so there are large corpuses of data that you would need like Craigslist has famously never allowed anybody to scrape Craigslist the amount of data inside
Craigslist as but one example of a data set would be extraordinary to build chat GPT on chatgpt is not allowed to because as you brought up robots.txt last week there's going to need to be an ai.txt are you allowed to use my data set in Ai and under and how will I be compensated for it I'll allow you to use Craigslist but you have to link to the original post
and you have to note that the other gray area that isn't there today but may emerge is when section 230 gets Rewritten because if they take the protections away for the Facebook and the Googles of the world for the basically for being an algorithmic publisher and saying an algorithm is equivalent to a publisher what it essentially saying is that an
algorithm is kind of like doing the work of a human in a certain context and I wonder whether that's also an angle here which now this algorithm which today David you use you said the example I read all these blog posts I write something but if an algorithm does it maybe can you then say no actually there was intent there that's different than if a
human were to do it I don't know my point is very complicated issues that are going to get sorted out and I think the problem with the hype cycle is that you're going to have to marry it with an economic model for VCS to really make money and right now there's just too much betting on the come so to the extent you're going to invest it makes sense
that you put money into open AI because that's safe because the economic model of how you make money for everybody else is so unclear right oh it's clear actually I have it for business I just signed up for chat GPT premium they had a survey that they shared on their Discord server and I filled out the survey and they did a price Discovery survey uh Freeburg what's the
least you would pay the most you would pay what would be too cheap of a price for chat GPT Pro and what would be too high of a price I put in like 50 bucks a month was would be what I would pay but I was just thinking imagine chat gbt allowed you Friedberg to have a slack Channel called research and you could go in there or anytime you're in slack you
do slash chat or slash chat GPT and you say slash chatgpt tell me you know what are the venues available in which we did this actually for I did this for values for on summer I could say what are the venues that seat over 3 000 people in Vegas and it just gave us the answer okay well that was the job of uh of the local event planner
they had that list now you can pull that list from a bunch of different sources I mean what would you pay for that a lot well I think one of the big things that's happening is all the old business models don't make sense anymore in a world where the software is no longer just doing what it's done for the last 60 years which is what is
historically defined as information retrieval so you have this kind of hierarchical storage of data that you have some index against and then you go and you search and you pull data out and then you present that data back to the customer or the user of the software and that's effectively been how all kind of data has been utilized in all systems for the
past 60 years in Computing largely what we've really done is kind of built an evolution of application layers or software tools to interface with the fetching of that data the retrieval of that data and the display of that data but what these systems are now doing what AI type systems or machine Learning Systems now do is the synthesis of that
data and the representation of some synthesis of that data to you the user in a way that doesn't necessarily look anything like the original data that was used to make that synthesis and that's where business models like a Yelp for example or like a web crawler that crawls the web and then presents web page directories to you those sorts of
models no longer make sense in a world where the software the signal to noise is now greater the signal is greater than the noise in being able to present to you a synthesis of that data and basically resolve what your objective is with your own consumption and interpretation of that data which is how you historically use these systems and I
think that's where there's you know going back to the question of the hype cycle I don't think it's about being a hype cycle I think it's about the the investment opportunity against fundamentally rewriting all compute tools because if all compute tools ultimately can use this capability in their interface and in their modeling then it very much changes everything and
one of the advantages that I think businesses are going to latch onto which we talked about historically is novelty in their data in being able to build new systems and new models that aren't generally available example in biotech and Pharma for example having screening results from from very expensive uh experiments and running
lots of experiments and having a lot of data against those experiments gives a company an advantage in being able to do things like drug discovering we're going to talk about that in a minute versus everyone using publicly known screening libraries or publicly available protein modeling libraries and then screening against those and then everyone's got the same
candidates and the same targets in the same you know kind of clinical objectives that they're going to try and resolve from from that output so um so I think novelty and data is is one way that Advantage uh kind of arises but really you know that's just kind of you know where's there an edge but fundamentally every business model can and and will need to be Rewritten
that's dependent on the historical on the legacy of kind of information retrieval as the core of what Computing is is used to do sacks on my other podcast I was having a discussion with Molly about the legal profession what impact would it be if chat GPT took every court case every argument every document and somebody took all of those
legal cases on the legal profession uh and then the filing of a lawsuit the defending of a lawsuit public defenders prosecutors but what data could you figure out like if and like just to think in recent history look at Chessa Boudin you could literally take every case every argument he did put it through it and say you know versus an outcome in another state
and you could uh figure out what's actually going on with this technology what impact could this have on the legal field that you are a non-practicing attorney you have a legal degree I I never practiced other than one summer at a law firm but no I think did you pass the bar was I did pass the bar yes yeah yes I did try yes of course of course
yeah come on here I went to Stanford dude I may not have passed the bar but I know a little [ __ ] enough to know that you can't look I I I would be curious in terms of a very common question that a an Associated Law Firm would get asked would be something like you know summarize the legal precedence in favor of X right and that you can imagine GPT
doing that like instantly now I think that the question about that I think there's two questions one is can you prompt GPT in the right way to get the answer you want and I think you know tremath you shared a really interesting video showing that people are developing some skills around knowing how to ask GPT questions engineering away exact prompt
engineering why because GPT is a command line interface so if you ask gbt a simple question about what's the best restaurant in you know Napa it knows how to answer that but there are much more complicated questions that you kind of need to know how to prompt it in the right way so it's not clear to me that a command line interface is the best way
of doing that I could imagine apps developing that create more of like a GUI so we're an investor for example on copy AI which is doing this for copywriters and marketers helping them write blog posts and emails and so you know imagine putting that like you know GUI on top of chat GPT they've already been kind of doing this so I think
that's part of it I think the other part of it is on the answer side you know how accurate is it because in some professions having 90 or 95 or 99 accuracy is okay but in other professions you need six nines accuracy meaning 99.9999 accuracy okay so I think for a lawyer going into court you know you probably need I don't know I mean it depends on on the
the ticket versus a murder trial is two very different yeah exactly so is 99 accuracy good enough is 95 accuracy good enough I would say probably for a court case 95 is probably not good enough I'm not sure GPT is at even 95 yet but could it be helpful like could could the associates start with chat GPT get an answer and then validate it probably
yeah if you had a bunch of Associates bang on some law model for a year again that's that reinforcement learning we just talked about I think you'd get Precision recall off the charts and it would be perfect by the way just a cute thing I don't know if you guys got this email it came about an hour ago from Reed Hoffman and Reed said to me hmoth I
I created fireside chat Bots a special podcast mini-series where I will be having a set of conversations with chat GPT so you can go to YouTube by the way and and see Reed having and he's a very smart guy so this should be kind of cool and by the way chat GPT will have an AI generated voice powered by the text-to-speech platform play.ht
go to YouTube if you want to see Reed have a kind of a conversation with chat GPT I mean we have a conversation with the two Davids every week what's the difference we know how this is going to turn out hey but actually so synthesizing to Moss Point about reinforcement learning with something you said jaycal in our chat which I actually thought was pretty
smart well that's first yeah so I'm gonna give you credit here because I don't think you've said it on this this episode which is you said that these open AI capabilities are eventually going to become commoditized or certainly much more widely available I don't know if that means that they'll be totally commoditized or it'll be four
players but there'll be multiple players that offer them and you said the real Advantage will come from applications that are able to get a hold of proprietary data sets and then use those proprietary data sets to generate insights and then layering on what you must said about reinforcement learning if you can be the first out there in a given vertical with
a proprietary data set and then you get the advantage the mode of reinforcement learning that would be the way to create I think a sustainable business just to build on what you said this week is the JPMorgan conference Friedberg mentioned it last week I had dinner on Wednesday with this really interesting company based in Zurich and what they have is
basically a library of ligands right and so these ligands are used as a substrate to deliver all kinds of molecules inside the body and what's interesting is that they have a portfolio of like a thousand of these but really what they have is they have all the nuclear medicine about whether it works so you know they're they target glioblastoma glioblastoma
and so all of a sudden they can they can say well this ligand can actually cross The Blood Vein barrier and get to the brain they have an entire data set of that and a whole bunch of nuclear imagery around that they have something for Soft Cell carcinoma so then they have that data set so to your point that's really valuable because that's
real work that Google or Microsoft or openai won't do right and if you have that and you bring it to the problem you can probably make money you know there's a business there to be built just building on this conversation I just realized like a great prompt engineer is going to become a title and an actual skill the ability to interface with these here you
go hey guys Lanier somebody who is very good at talk to these you know instances and and maximizing the result for them and refining the results for them just like a detective who asks great questions the that person is going to be 10 or 20 times more valuable they could be the proverbial 10x engineer in the future of as a as in a company and as we talk
about austerity and doing more with less and the 80 less people running Twitter now or Amazon laying off 18 000 people Salesforce laying off 8 000 Facebook laying off 10 and probably another 10 000. what catalytic effect like could this have we could be sitting here in three or four or five years and instead of running a company like Twitter with 80
less people maybe you could run it with 98 less people look I think directionally it's the the right statement I mean you know I've I've made the statement a number of times that I think we moved from this idea of greater economy to narrator economy where historically was kind of Labor economy where humans use their physical
labor to do things than we were knowledge workers we used our our brains to to make things and then ultimately we kind of I think resolved to this narrator economy where the the way that you kind of can State intention and better manipulate the tools to drive your intentional outcome the more successful you're going to be and you can kind of think about this as
being the artist of the past Da Vinci was um what made him so good was he was technically incredible at trying to reproduce a photographic like imagery using uh using paint and there's these really great kind of Museum exhibits on how he did it using these really interesting kind of like split mirror systems and then the the better the
artist of the 21st century the 20th century was the best user of Adobe Photoshop and that person is not necessarily the best painter and the artist of the 22nd century isn't going to look like the Photoshop expert and it's not going to look like the the painter it's going to look like something entirely different it could be who's got the most creative imagination
in driving the software to drive new outcomes and I think that the same analogy can be used across every Market in every industry however one thing to note jaycal it's it's not about austerity because the the Luddite argument is when you have new tools and you get more leverage from those tools you have less work for people to do and
therefore everyone suffers the reality is new work emerges and New Opportunities emerge and we level up as a species and when we level up we all kind of fill the gaps and expand our productivity and our capability set I thought what J Cal was saying was more that Google will be smaller didn't mean that the pie wouldn't grow it's just
that that individual company is run differently but there will be hundreds of more companies or thousands more Millions more yeah that's sort of I have an actual punch-up for you yeah instead of narrative it's the conductor economy it's you're you're conducting a symphony oh a bunch up punch up there but I do think like we're gonna there's gonna be somebody who's
sitting there like remember Tom Cruise a Minority Report as a detective was moving stuff around with a interface the in yeah you know with the gloves and everything this is kind of that manifested you could even if you're not an attorney you could say hey I want to sue this company for copyright infringement give me my best arguments and then on the other side Say Hey I
want to know what the next three features I should put into my product is can you examine who are my top 20 competitors and then who have they hired in the last six months and what are those people talking about on Twitter you could have this conductor you know who becomes really good at that um yeah the leveling up that happens in the
book Enders game I think is a good example of this where the guy goes through the entire kind of ground up and then ultimately he's commanding armies of spaceships and space and his orchestration of all of these armies is actually the skill set that wins the war yeah you predicted that there would be like all these people that create these
next-gen forms of con content but I think this Reid Hoffman thing could be pretty cool like what if he wins a Grammy for his you know computer created podcast mini series that's one thing the thing I'm really excited about it's the first AI novel gonna get published by a major publisher I think it happens this year when's the first AI
Symphony gonna get performed by a major Symphony Orchestra and when's the first AI generated screenplay get turned into an AI generated 3D movie that we all watch and then the more exciting one I think is when do we all get to make our own AI video game where we instruct the video game platform what world we want to live in I don't think that's
happening for the next three or four years but when it does I think everyone's got these new immersive environments that they can live in I have a question when you know when I say live in I mean video game wise yeah sorry go ahead when you have when you have these computer systems just like to use a question of game theory for a second they're these models are
iterating rapidly these are all mathematical models so inherent in let's just say this the perfect answer right like if you had perfect Precision recall foreign models get there at a system-wide level everybody is is sort of like they get to the game theory optimal they're all at Nash equilibrium right all these systems working at the same time then the real
question would then be what the hell do you do then because if you keep getting the same answer if everybody then knows how to ask the exact right question and you start to go through these iterations where you're like maybe there is a dystopian hellscape where there are no jobs maybe that's the Elon World which is you can you can recursively
find a logical argument where there is no job that's possible right and now I'm not saying that that path is the likely path but I'm saying it is important to keep in mind that that path of outcomes is still very important to keep in the back of our mind as we figure these things out well Freeburg you know you were asking before about this like you know will more work
be created of course artistic Pursuits podcasting is a job now being an influencer is a job yada yada new things emerge in the world but here in the United States in 1970 I'm looking at um Fred I'm looking at the St Louis Fred 1970 26.4 percent of the country was working in a factory was working in manufacturing you want to guess what
that is in 2012 sorry what percentage it was 26 in 1970 and in 2015 when they stopped the percentage in manufacturing United States they discontinued this it was a 10. so it's possible we could just see you know the concept of office work the concept of knowledge work is going to follow pretty inevitable the path of manufacturing that that seems like a
pretty logical Theory or no I think we should move on but yes okay so how would we like to ruin the show now should we talk about Biden and uh the documents and ruin the show with political talk or should we talk about since it's been such a great episode so far what do we want to talk about next again a couple of choices don't want to
talk about um give it to him hold on a second we all know jaycal that according to you when a president is in possession of classified documents in his home yes that apparently have been taken an unauthorized manner basically stolen he should have his home raided by the FBI almost close close yeah if so anyway the Biden uh as of the taping of this
has now said there's a third batch of classified documents this group I guess there was one at an office one at a library now this third group is in his garage with his Corvette certainly not looking good uh they say they say that in his defense they say the garage was locked meaning that uh you could use a garage door opener too to open or close
that that's what it was locked when it went closed so we're pretty much as secure as the documents at Mar-A-Lago same equivalency no no no actually I mean just to be perfectly Fair the documents in Mar-A-Lago were locked in a basement the FBI came checked it out said we'd like you to lock those up they locked them up so got it a little safer
than maybe a little safer then but functionally the same functional functionally the same uh the only difference here would be what sacks when you look at these two cases well that in one case mayor Garland is appointed an independent Council to investigate Trump and there's no such a special counsel or investigator appointed to investigate Biden I mean
yeah these things are functional put somebody on it though I don't think they've appointed a special counsel yet no they did as of an hour ago a special counsel was appointed did that just happen yeah one hour ago uh Robert her is his name okay I guess there are real questions to look into here the documents apparently were removed twice why were they moved two
ordered that what was a classified document doing in Biden's personal Library what do the documents pertain to do they touch on the Biden families business dealings in Ukraine and China so there are real things to look into here but let me just take a step back now that the last three presidential candidates have been ensnared in these
classified document problems remember it's Biden now and then Trump and Hillary Clinton before Trump I think it's time to step back and ask are we over classifying documents I mean are we fetishizing these documents are they all really that sensitive it seems to me that we have an over classification problem meaning that ever since uh foia
was passed the Freedom of Information Act the government can avoid accountability and and prying Eyes by simply labeling any document is classified so overclassification was a logical response by the permanent government to the Freedom of Information Act and now it's gotten to the point where just about everything handed to a president
or vice president is classified so I think I can understand why they're all making this mistake and I think a compounding problem is that we never declassify anything there's still all these records from the Kennedy assassination well that's crazy classified they they and they're supposed to have Declassified these the CIA keeps filibustering on the release of
the JFK assassination documents and they've been told they have they have to stop and they have to release them and then they keep redacting stuff conspiracy theorist here but what are they trying to cover up I mean this is a long time ago that's the only way to interpret it but even for more mundane documents there are very few documents that need
to be classified after even say five years you could argue that we should be automatically declassifying them after five years unless they go through a process to get reclassified I mean I'd say like just you guys in business I know it's not government and business how many of the documents that you deal with are still sensitive are Trade
Secrets five years later certainly 20 years later they're not right like okay let's say like five years I mean the only documents in business that I think I deal with that you could call sensitive are the ones that pertain to the company's future plans right because you wouldn't want to compare the table to get those yeah there's a handful of
things legal issues yeah even cat people is not that sensitive Because by the time you go public it's legally has to be public yeah at some point like there's a hundred people who have that I mean it's exactly so like in business I think our experience has been there's very few documents that stay sensitive that need to remain secret now
look if Biden or Trump or whatever they're reviewing the schematics to the javelin missile system or to you know how we make our nuclear bombs or something obviously that needs to say secret forever but I don't believe our politicians are reviewing those kinds of documents well I mean we both I don't really understand what it is that they're reviewing why are they keeping
needs to be classified five years why are they keeping them was the issue we discussed previously we actually agreed on that I think they're just keeping mementos I think there's a simple explanation for why they're keeping them Jason which is that the that everything is more classified and there's a zillion documents and if you look like both
Biden and Trump these documents were mixed in with a bunch of personal effects and mementos my point is if you work in government and handle documents they're all classified so I mean if the National Archive asks for them back or you find them you should just give them back I mean that is that's going to wind up being the rugby Trump didn't give them back fair
enough I did so that's the only difference here well no no hold on the FBI went to Trump's basement they looked around they said put a lock on this they seem to be okay with it initially then maybe they changed their minds I don't know I'm not defending Trump it's pretty clear that he wouldn't give him back him that was the point I'm making is that
now that Biden Trump and Hillary Clinton have all been ensnared in this is it time to rethink the fact that we're over classifying so many documents I mean just think about the incentives that that we're creating for our politicians okay just think about the incentives number One never use email remember Hillary Clinton the whole email server
yeah you got to be nuts to use email number two never touch a document never touch a document what never let anyone hand you a document flush them down the toilet never let anyone hand you a documentary if you're a politician an elected official yeah the only time you should ever be handling anything is going to a clean room right you know make an
appointment go in there read something don't take notes don't bring a camera and then leave I mean this is no way to run a government it's crazy who does this benefit who does this benefit it doesn't benefit our elected officials it makes it almost impossible for them to act like normal people that's why it benefits the Insiders the permanent government you're
missing the most important part about the sex this was if you want to go into conspiracy theories this was a setup Biden planted the documents here we go so that we could create the false equivalency and start up Biden versus Trump 2024 this ensures that now Trump has something to fight with Biden about but and this is going to help Trump because
they're both tainted equally tainted yes the same Source in the new cycle no I think but I think it's the opposite I think mayor Garland now is going to have to drop the prosecution against Trump for the stolen documents or at least that part of what they're investigating him for they might still investigate him over January 6th
or something but they can't investigate them seems more sticky yeah I agree with that actually I think it's going to be hard to do but my point is like just think about look but both sides are engaged in hyper partisanship the way right now the that the conservatives and the right they're attacking Biden now for the same thing that the left was attacking Trump
for my point is like just take a step back and again think about the incentives we're creating about how to run our government you can't use email and you can't touch documents and by the way if you're don't ever go into politics if you're a business person because they'll investigate every deal you ever did prior to getting into politics
what are you going to do when you try to get uh your treasury a position what's going to be nuts you got to be nuts to go so you're not going to take a position that the Washington insiders by which I mean the permanent Washington establishment I.E the Deep state they're creating a system in which they're running things and the elected officials barely can operate like normal
functioning humans there interesting I heard a great rumor this is total gossip mongering oh here we go uh that you know one of Ken Griffin's best out is to get DeSantis elected so that he can become treasury secretary I mean Ken Griffin would get that if he wanted it and then he would be able to divest all of Citadel tax-free so he would Mark the
market like 30 billion dollars which is a genius way to go out now then it occurred to me oh my God that is me and Sax's path too why would it be tax-free when you get appointed to those branch those senior posts you're allowed to either stick it in a blind trust or you can sell with no capital gains yeah what well because they want you they
want you to diverse yes anything that presents a conflict they want you to divest and so the argument is if you have if you're forced to divest it to enter government you shouldn't be forcibly if I become mayor of San Francisco or Austin Secretary of Transportation Jay Cal you can do that oh I'm qualified for that I've take the bus I got an electric bike
to answer freeburg's point I think Citadel Securities there's a lot of folks that would buy that because that's just a Securities trading business and then Citadel the hedge fund probably something like a big bulge bracket bank or Blackstone probably Blackstone in fact because now Blackstone can plug it into a trillion dollar asset machine
it's a I think there would be buyers out the door this is this is an incredible grift now I know why it's not a grift at all but it's a it's an incredible come on man a cabinet position for No Cap gains well that's not a grift that's like those are the laws they force you to sell everything and then you do Public Schools I think you're I think you're misusing the word
to continue to genuflect to the left lane you're being a little defensive that or you're dumb I'm not stupid man that's when I see it you take a camera position where does that exist yes if you were asked to serve look any normal person who wants to serve in government you can't use email and you can't touch a document and every deal you've ever done
gets investigated yes yes why would you want to do it I mean I'm saying that you get to divest tax-free me think thou dot protesteth too much David the fact that you two know this rule no I know I know it it's like a well-known language I know this rich people I looked up Grifton stage it means that to engage in a petty or small
scale Swindle I don't think selling a 31 billion dollar engine no it's not a combination of BlackRock and Blackstone would be considered a petty small did any of you guys watch the Madoff uh series on Netflix no was it good no oh my God it is so so depressing I gotta say like just that that Madoff series there is no glimmer of light or hope or positivity or
recourse everyone is a victim everyone suffers it is just so dark don't watch it it's so depressing is so depressing it's so good they all kill themselves and die and like all the ones one guy died of cancer person pick hard I didn't realize all this the trustee that went and got the money he went and got money back from these
people who were 80 years old and retired and had spent that money decades ago and he sued them and took their homes away from them and no one and and they had no one they were part of the scam no one no one won it was a brutal awful whole thing yeah by the way that's going to be really interesting as we enter this SPF trial because 100
that that is the track that that is what happens if you guys southern district of new York said that this case is becoming too big for them because all the places that SPF said money all those uh pacts and all those political donations before they have to go and investigate where that money went and see if they can get it back and it's going to open up an
investigation into each one of these campaign finance and election and kind of interfering right now propublica sorry propublica on the other end of the spectrum I did watch this weekend triangle of sadness have you guys okay sadness is great it's so dark to The Davids uh listen this is one of the it I thought it was it didn't pay off the way I thought but this is one of the
best setups you'll see in a movie so basically it's a bunch of people on an on a luxury yacht so you have a bunch of rich people as the guests then you have the staff that interacts with them and this is like mostly Caucasian and then under in the bowels of the ship what you see are Asian and black workers that support them okay so the the in
some ways is a little bit of a microcosm of the world Oh I thought you would say a microcosm of something else and then and then what happens is there's like a shipwreck basically right oh don't spoil it come on okay and so but no but I'll just say so so the plot is you have this Caucasian patriarchy that that gets flips upside down because
after the Shipwreck the only person who knows how to make a fire and catch the fish is the Filipino woman who is in charge of cleaning the toilets Social Security comes in charge so now you flip to this immigrant Matrix pretty great meditation on class and um survival it's it's pretty well done it didn't end well I thought I thought okay yeah well it's
hard to wrap that one up well you know what they say Boys still a little and they throw you in jail still a lot and they make you King uh famous Bob Dylan quote uh all right well this has been a great episode great to see you besties uh austerity menu tonight tremath uh what's on the austerity menu tonight what are we doing salad uh some tuna sandwiches no I think
uh I think Kirsten is doing uh I think durad yeah that's yeah that's a good fish Jake and I once had a great rod in Venice in Venice Venice [Music] so good I agree when it's done well the durad kicks us there's only one way to cook it to rod do you know what that is you gotta you gotta it's the way they did in Venice you got to cook the whole
fish yeah yeah okay and then after you cook the fish then you de-bone it right and uh right yeah absolutely that's the way to do it that was back when sax and I used to enjoy each other's company this podcast made us into mortal enemies check out I'm a little disappointed you couldn't agree with my take on this document Scandal instead of dunking in a
partisan way I tried to explain why it was a problem of our whole political system I like your theory I I I I think you know you you keep I just think your party Crystal a little bit more but you know compare your grift are we gonna play Saturday after the wild card game are you guys interested in playing Saturday as well because I got the hall
pass I can I can do a game outside I don't know I have to check with my boss who's going to the are you guys walking on sex are you gonna come to play poker at that live stream thing for the day in a way I doubt it no oh he doesn't want to interact with humans that does not uh play well in confirmation hearings you know the last time I did one of
those Alan Keating destroyed me on camera feet and every time he bluffed I folded every time he had the the nuts I called that's true a shellacking a classic saxophone saving thing is that what's going on here no no no no it has to do with the cabinet positions he doesn't need to be seen recklessly gambling so badly you could
do any cabinet position sacks which one would it be steak I don't know that those like cabinet positions are that important I mean they run these giant bureaucracies that again are are permanent you can't fire anyone so if you can't fire a person to the early report to you right Trump's idea was like put a bunch of Hardline CEO type people in charge have
them blow up these things and make them more efficient it didn't really work did it yeah well you know why as CEO is actually in charge like Elon he walks in if he doesn't like what you're doing he'll just fire you you can't fire anyone how do you manage them when they don't have to listen to anything you say that's our whole government right now
our cabinet heads are figureheads for for these departments for these Giants is that a no or is that a yes you'd still take state look at that well you know I think I have another feeling first what is the best ambassadorship well you can't you can't digest everything you can tell which ambassadorship is the best one based on how much they charge
for it yeah so I think I think London is the most expensive I think that one is a million for London 10 to 15. yeah 10 15 million that's that's what Sax's fourth least expensive home cost no no you have to spend that every year to run it Jason you only got you gotta pick for him you could be the ambassador to guinea or the ambassador to the UK you get the same
budget actually what's kind of funny is I know two people who serve as ambassadors under Trump and it was really cheap to get those because no one no one should be part of the Trump Administration two for one they were on they were on fire sale after because of trump who wants to be tainted but by the way one of them and you can just beep out the
name was telling me it was the best thing because he ended up selling they already did the all-time highs to take the job he was like I gotta get out of all of his stuff no but listen let me tell you the the ambassadorships it was it was a smart trade by those guys because Ambassador is a lifetime title so your Ambassador whatever no one remembers was
president when you were Ambassador no one cares so you are going for the Ambassador so stay I think it's fair I think he's going to Ambassador I'm not interested in ceremonial things I'm interested in making an impact and the problem with all these positions I mean being a cabinet official is not much different than being an ambassador
so you're gonna you're gonna enlist in the navy no what what would it what has a bigger impacts or being an ambassador who's more influential Saks on the all in pod or beep as the ambassador of Sweden actually all in pod is more impactful by the way this is why I take issue with your statement about the term mainstream media because I think you
have become the mainstream media more than most of the folks that are Independent Media we're Independent Media trust me it's Independence things happen by thread and stop genuflecting three episodes I just like saying the word genuine you like genuflecting I know because that is the top word of 2023 so far for me oh is that is somebody doing an analysis with Chad
chapite of the words used here no but sax brought that word up it was just so it's a wonderful word it's it's not used enough all right everybody we'll see you next time on the all-in podcast comments are turned back on have at it you animals love you guys love you besties bye Rain Man [Music] besties [Music] foreign [Music] [Music]