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I kind of believe that we collectively create ground state reality.
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What the majority of us believe at any given time in history tends to be the reality that we see.
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In an ideal world, you know, we would have kind of used our computers to kind of store all the extra stuff, but also kind of like, you know, kept our own memory muscles healthy as well.
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There is a the worry that, for example, things like Grammarly, as as they get really, really good, I think people just won't bother learning.
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Writing has never been more important, in my opinion, because we're still very text-based.
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That's too human tech and then see towards like, you know, slippery slopes.
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I think that every degree is an English degree is kind of admirable.
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How well then you can express yourself and write clearly and communicate well.
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Read a chapter of something and write down what you think of it and show it to someone. Well, hello everyone.
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It's Jim O'Shaughnessy with yet another Infinite Loops.
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They told me that I would get bored and stop doing this after maybe six episodes.
1:07
Dylan, what episode is this? I don't even know. It's like 170.
1:09
My guest today is Dylan O'Sullivan.
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Yes, of course, I'm motivated reasoning here.
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I like the Irish, so kill me.
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Actually, Dylan is an amazingly talented writer who came to us through Write of Passage. Dylan, welcome.
1:32
Pleasure to be here, Jim.
1:32
This is the battle of the O's apostrophes today. I think it is. I think it is.
1:38
Um you know, in America, there are a lot more Shaughnessys than O'Shaughnessys, right?
1:46
Because when they got to Ellis Island, they were like, "What's your name?"
1:51
And they'd say, you know, "O'Shaughnessy."
1:53
And they'd go, "Yeah, no.
1:55
No, that isn't your name. What's your name?"
1:59
And that's how we got bastardized down to I shouldn't say bastardized. Uh to Shaughnessy.
2:03
But isn't the O doesn't that signify uh uh a of the Shaughnessy clan? Isn't that what that is? Yeah, I think so.
2:15
Now, I'm going to be totally honest.
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My Irish is has been and continues to be awful. So, I'm I think so.
2:20
But uh yeah, this is a similar phenomenon between Ireland and Britain where a lot of the O's got lost.
2:24
They they call it taking the soup.
2:27
I don't know how popular it is, but it was kind of during the famine if you kind of wanted to get your dinner at the end of the day, you lost the O to kind of, you know, embrace your Britishness.
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Now, I don't know if that's a a wives' tale, but there's a case of a lot of O's being lost as well in Ireland and Britain Britain around that time.
2:44
I am reading right now Sebastian Barry's new book.
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Are you a fan of Sebastian Barry? Can't say I am.
2:53
No, he's new name for me.
2:53
You I think I've just introduced This is kind of I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship, my friends.
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I think you're going to love his work.
3:02
He is one of my favorite literary authors. He's Irish.
3:08
Um and just go to the catalog.
3:08
You you will he he is literally a poet writing in prose. Um So, I like him. You'll love him. You'll love him.
3:23
And what he's talking about now is kind of the dark side of Ireland's history.
3:29
Not so much back when the Brits were trying to [ __ ] with uh the Irish, but um the whole scandals with the clergy um the the troubles uh etc.
3:38
And it's told uh by an unreliable narrator who's a retired cop. And it's just brilliant.
3:47
I highly, highly recommend it.
3:49
But let's get on to your stuff.
3:53
Uh we we found you through Write of Passage.
3:54
And let's let give me your origin story here, Dylan, because you you have a very fancy degree, which I am very enamored of, but you're going in a different direction.
4:05
So, so tell us all about it. Uh slightly, yeah.
4:09
So, start from the very start, I suppose.
4:13
Uh so, kind of a unorthodox beginning.
4:14
I was I was homeschooled until the age of 11.
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Uh my mom kind of trained as a primary school teacher, but she decided to teach me and my sister at home uh taking education into her own hands.
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So, I was like, you know, hyper creative, kind of quote unquote free range.
4:30
Um so, that's kind of stuck to me in a big sense going forward.
4:33
So, then kind of moved into the system then from the age of 12 to 18 kind of didn't necessarily align too well at points, but like kind of uh put my head down and copped on near the end cuz I kind of said, you know, I was kind of misbehaving until like a second last year year of secondary school.
4:53
And then I said, you know what, next year kind of defines where I get to go after this.
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So, it's kind of like in my own interest to kind of put my head down and start doing my homework.
5:02
Uh so, yeah, then I got to the fancy degree up to Trinity, which I get no end of abuse for abandoning Cork and going up to Dublin to study English especially of all things and all of that stuff like, you know, uh useless degree possible.
5:12
So, but to be fair, I kind of found it that way a little bit.
5:17
little bit. And again, that's kind of when I started to kind of be from zero to 11 that that kind of age profile of my life kind of reappeared and I kind of started to take things with a pinch of salt again, which kind of took the form of,
5:35
you know, listening to lectures on YouTube while my actual lectures were going on in like the neighboring hall and then we do my own reading list, my own curricula, turning up rarely, very, very like I kind of uh worth was there was like a 12-week module for each semester. So,
5:51
So, I would identify which module I wanted or which week was covering the subject that I wanted to do my final essay on.
6:01
So, then I would just attend one out of 12 weeks and just attend that week, get the lowdown, and then just do the final essay on that uh in week 12 cuz there was like you know, exams as such was all that stuff.
6:11
So, I kind of figured that out.
6:13
Just go I could work work away myself basically in the meantime, do my own stuff, and not have to kind of abide by that curricula.
6:21
Um Yeah, then to be real, just kind of save up for a master's cuz, you know, there isn't necessarily the straightest road out of an English studies degree into the world of employment unless you kind of want to carry on the academic path.
6:34
And then I kind of, you know, see which way the winds were going.
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I thought, "Okay, new media is kind of the place to go."
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Um and then kind of looked up, "Where's the best new media degree in the world?"
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It turned out to be Amsterdam, which turned out to be also one of the cheapest.
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So, I was like, "Perfect symmetry in that respect."
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And then yeah, the 2 years there kind of slightly hampered by the pandemic.
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So, the year one by a cork on Zoom, but then for year two, I got to go up there, thank god.
7:03
Um and then just basically I think I still talk just literally just after handing in my thesis, that's kind of when the Write of Passage and the my Jim O'Shaughnessy arc began.
7:18
So, it was kind of everything kind of lined up in a very, very straight way and there was kind of no gaps at all. I I love it.
7:24
Let's let's go back to Trinity.
7:27
And for our American and uh other listeners, Trinity is kind of the Ivy League of uh Ireland. And yeah.
7:38
And um I find it really fascinating because it's actually why I think we fit so well together.
7:45
Our thesis is that the old institutions are collapsing in many ways.
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And I find it absolutely fascinating that you you get into Trinity like getting into Harvard or Yale here.
7:59
And you're you're watching YouTube lectures.
8:02
What what was the disconnect?
8:05
Why were the lectures at Trinity so off-putting for you?
8:13
It was I kind of don't like badmouthing it because I I really liked all the staff and I liked like the lectures are kind of interesting, but it was kind of it felt like you had to reach like the final uh boss of like minutiae that they were focusing on.
8:29
It was kind of these really weird, narrow, specialized channels of research that not really applicable to the outside world.
8:38
It seemed like, you know, they was kind of what they happened to be focusing on as part of their research or as part of their like, you know, part of what they just happened to be interested in that week.
8:48
So, this kind of all these kind of grander kind of questions of writing and the humanities proper and the classics and stuff were kind of slightly kind of glossed over, kind of not I don't know that before they kind of got on to whatever they wanted to talk about um particular subject.
9:04
And again, it was kind of like, you know, obviously academic writing is a huge part of kind of like the I think that every degree is an English degree at root except like, you know, the the kind of mathematics ones cuz kind of matter of how well then you can express yourself and write clearly and communicate well.
9:20
That'll kind of get you through the door on most exams and essays.
9:24
And that was kind of just taken for granted coming in.
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Kind of no teaching you how to write an academic essay or how to structure one or So, it was kind of everyone just kind of writing badly um on topics that weren't necessarily the most enticing.
9:39
So, I kind of thought, you know, this isn't going to I think this may I can game the system now, play the game here, and it'll serve me well, but I don't think I'm going to learn anything that's applicable post graduation.
9:50
And it was very, you know, closed system.
9:55
So, um you know, that's a worldwide phenomenon.
9:58
It's not just in Ireland, right?
10:00
It a lot of these departments and not just English, by the way.
10:05
It's not just the humanities. No.
10:08
Um, it seemed to have kind of spun up these closed systems where, you know, it's kind of like, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin arguments, right? Exactly.
10:20
And and it seems to me that that's tragic in so many ways because the the essence of an education is to help all of us, right?
10:31
Think more clearly, act more clearly, um, synthesize ideas better and and having these systems, uh, again, let's underline, not just Trinity, this is everywhere. It's everywhere.
10:47
That that are closed off presents, well, it presents this huge opportunity for things like SA full. Uh, SA full, excuse me.
10:57
Um, talk about that a bit cuz I think it's a fabulous project that you're doing and like, what an undertaking.
11:05
Yeah, and what it is it isn't such an undertaking from my perspective.
11:07
This has been so long in the making.
11:09
Cuz it kind of began around that time when I started like, you know, started with like top 10 books to read and how to write, for example, or like, you know, top 10 books about like the classicism or aesthetics and stuff like that.
11:24
And then I started to kind of build up folders and folders of books and notes and quotes and I basically kind of developing my own curriculum from the ground up.
11:33
That kind of it quickly grew into something that like, you know, would take a couple of lifetimes or some uh, miraculous technological uh, quantum leaps forward to actually be able to read it in one lifetime, but all of this stuff, okay, but I still I was reading I think it was three books a I think it's dropped now.
11:53
I was I was doing the math. So, it's kind of at 2.
11:54
5, but it was like three books a week reading for like eight years.
12:00
Kind of on my phone, hard back on my computer, like, you know, waiting at the dentist, on the bus, just kind of squeezing in as much as I could.
12:06
Um, so then this again back to you up all of that into kind of a mega file as well on my computer.
12:12
So, like every quote is then easily searchable and indexable on my laptop, which I'm kind of like praying doesn't die cuz I need to back up Um, so, yeah, it's been eight years of just that process.
12:25
So, and then it's been all sitting on my computer.
12:26
So, I thought, okay, maybe it's time to start, you know, dressing this up and making it some public-facing, you know what I mean? Yeah.
12:35
So, that's when I that's the SA full thing, yeah.
12:38
So, so, um, tell me after reading all this, what were your biggest takeaways? What surprised you?
12:48
What, um, at the end or even in the middle, what was there a moment when you synthesized one view with another that led to a completely new thought?
13:02
Take us through like, what what if you were going to sit somebody down and give them a 10-minute, uh, summary, if you will, to get them interested, right?
13:12
To get them to say, "Wow, I think maybe I want to go read those."
13:18
What would what Give it to me. Frame it for me. Yeah.
13:23
Yeah, there was like a couple of things.
13:24
So, first thing I would say is that just like, you know, that I don't know if it was Heraclitus or whatever, like there's nothing new under the sun, that that old kind of adage.
13:33
And then cuz kind of like also like, you know, that kind of hustle, quote unquote, writing hack culture, I was kind of like, you know, so how do the best do these things?
13:43
Um, and then I kind of found out that, you know, people used to I think it was a John Dewey and this used to type out Hemingway novels word by word just to kind of get the feel. Hunter S.
13:53
Thompson did that as well, yeah.
13:55
Yeah, um, so this kind of like this kind of idea that, you know, mimicry isn't bad and that's kind of like, you know, these kind of iteratives processes are like, you know, what can it lend you a style and a voice.
14:06
In the first place, you kind of have to put in this initial work of like, you know, it's the the classic, um, apprenticeship.
14:14
And I think there's like a misconception with writing that like, you know, you're so special, your voice is magical from birth.
14:24
You don't need to practice, you're beautiful, it's fine, no worry about it.
14:27
But that's like, none of the masters kind of followed that kind of advice and like, you look at what Shakespeare did and I touched on that in the most recent SA full they would just read the classics and they would like literally try and synthesize, take out the content.
14:42
What is like the X Y formula that this person is using and they would just practice that line iteration.
14:50
They'd notebooks separated between form and content.
14:52
So, it would be like, okay, this kind of A B B A type of sentence.
14:56
Okay, so I see how this also came before me used that.
15:03
And they would just kind of practice that rule.
15:05
And then and then, you know, with Shakespeare as well as his plot structure and stuff is quite like, you know, classic.
15:11
So, there's nothing really in totally invented about it, but he was just playing around with, you know, tried and tested kind of anti-fragile ways of ordering materials and then kind of filling in his own content.
15:22
But because he'd done the groundwork initially of kind of learning all these kind of forms and mechanics that kind of take place just beneath the page work.
15:33
Um, so that was kind of one thing and then the other another thing is just the kind of again, the blurriness of the border between fiction and non-fiction as well.
15:43
And then you kind of see these, especially in journalism, it's kind of becoming more apparent now, these kind of snappy, catchy leads that are kind of like, you know, they slash forward, they flashback.
15:53
Kind of like they they loop back and around.
15:57
Um, just kind of like, you know, this various structures of ways of opening a journalistic article that like there's like a funnel, there's a bait, there's a hook.
16:06
And like these are kind of like, you know, nomenclature that kind of circle around journalism, but then they're exactly the same things that like, you know, you see in a film or you see kind of a saw catchy opening.
16:18
So, it's kind of the yeah, but the brain blurriness of the borders between all these different disciplines that I think have specialized and fractionated down to be kind of unable to speak to each other.
16:30
It's that kind of Tower of Babel process.
16:33
But I think, yeah, there's a so much kind of inter applicability between writings.
16:38
So, when you take something more holistic approach, like worlds open up.
16:42
I I love the reference to the Tower of Babel.
16:45
I have a theory that uh, you know, for better or worse, you know, the Great Books series that the IVs would do here in the US, I'm sure Trinity did them as well.
16:56
Um, those fell into disfavor, uh, to put it mildly.
17:00
Um, but I I wonder how much of that, you know, I kind of believe that we cumulate that we collectively create ground state reality, right?
17:14
By all of us sentient beings, we humans, uh, you know, what what the majority of us believe at any given time in history tends to be the reality that we see.
17:24
And one thing that I admired about the the Great Books series, the the familiarity, for example, I read all of Shakespeare.
17:36
I read Will and Ariel Durant's entire uh, 11 volumes in the I know.
17:40
I'm still I'm still on volume one, yeah.
17:42
Yeah, but but that created a lingua franca, right? A common tongue.
17:48
Where people who had done a similar course understood one another's references immediately, right?
17:54
And you know, my father was, uh, a he was an English literature professor and early early in his career, he he left that, sadly.
18:08
I think he would have been happier had he stayed in that profession.
18:12
But the the ability to immediately grasp a reference, right?
18:20
You see some things on, um, social media, for example, where you make an obvious reference like, "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much," right?
18:30
And and you know where that's from, but a lot of people don't.
18:33
What Is there any way of bringing back Is there any way of rebuilding the Tower of Babel so it's not the Tower of Babel, but rather it's the human Colossus.
18:46
I think there is, but I'd love your opinion on it.
18:50
Yeah, I think there is too.
18:50
I think it's unfortunately the that process of restoration is kind of downstream of culture and as long as there's a lot of capital to be gained in tearing down.
19:04
And I suppose we are in like, you know, peak deconstruction is the kind of what it was called in the literary circles.
19:08
Um, but yeah, I kind of get what you're saying.
19:11
Like, you know, "Me thinks the protest or you doth protest too much."
19:14
Do like I think there's a lot of people that probably just think you have a speech impediment when they hear you say that or they see you write it down.
19:21
Um, but I think there is and I think it it does feel like growing pains the way that, you know, this this kind of information silo that we find ourselves in.
19:32
And I do think people are going to get sick of the incessant fractionating down of media so that, you know, everybody's watching their own series.
19:41
It seems almost to be like, you know, there's very little crossover between, you know, kind of you could bounce nine or 10 times back, "Have you seen this? Have you seen this?"
19:51
and between two people and none of them would have seen the same thing even if they were like watch Netflix or Hulu.
19:57
Even the fraction itself platforms themselves and like you know, the various subscribers if you can only afford one subscription, it's kind of like very difficult to kind of build that toll posts or common ground in between people.
20:08
But I think people will kind of hunger for that or it'll become cool again uh at some point and just you know, these these I wish I had fast-forward some of these time horizons but it's been always hard to do that.
20:23
But but I I kind of think there's an edge there and I think that if there's an edge, it will get exploited.
20:28
And and by that I mean, you know, the old quote about if you really want to come up with something new and different, read a very old book. That's it. Right?
20:38
So, I I think that there are so many incredible stories uh both fictional and and non-fiction.
20:50
That um all you got to do is kind of like go go go back through history, go back through some of the greatest writers and oh my god, like you you you you you you you have no excuse for not being able to come up with I don't know, 10 different movies or 10 different uh new twists on a novel.
21:12
a novel. In fact, you know, we were chatting uh with Liberty and our friend Jimmy Soni uh who's written several books and uh you know, the it was palpable the feeling that we're at a juncture here where we can do all sorts of incredibly cool new things with we
21:32
were talking specifically about audiobooks, but but with books in general, what what are your thoughts about my idea of books as living things as opposed to, you know, the author sent the final manuscript to the publisher, it was published on paper, it was set in stone so to speak. Um we
21:51
Um we now live in a digital world where that no longer has to be the case. What do you think?
22:02
Yeah, I think this it's twofold, I think in the the non-fiction world, definitely that's like a huge competitive advantage or for cuz I almost think especially with like the rate of change at the moment that almost like writing a statistic in a book, you're almost kind of setting yourself up for failure.
22:20
Especially if you're going through the traditional you know, um iceberg rate publication methods of of lore.
22:29
Just going through a traditional publisher basically, I think.
22:32
Everything that you write is going to be instantly out of date.
22:33
Um now there is kind of something it does it lend itself then to like you know, perfectionism as well on the side of the author.
22:42
I can imagine scenarios whereby you try and go back to your favorite line and find it gone and things like that.
22:49
There's also like you know, this kind of the case is a roll down where things are being kind of digitally edited retrospectively kind of beyond one's control.
22:58
But I think it's still a definitely net positive, I think because there's there's probably be a demand for both you know, stable forms but then to have this kind of fluid option, I think it's absolutely a net positive.
23:09
I'll kind of do that with NSF too where I'm kind of reading list, I'm I'm still adding to that like the rhetorical forms post.
23:15
I'm going to keep adding to that as I come across some some kind of this liquid liquid essay, I think it's in some ways I think it's going to be a huge step forward.
23:23
I think it was a I remember who said something on Twitter that like you know, this um moving image on the wall, this moving newspaper from Harry Potter that kind of looked so mythical past is kind of slowly coming to life now.
23:36
Only at uh cuz I've been reading actually I think it's all Twitter said that for that.
23:41
Yeah, I think an absolutely net positive in some So I also think that um with regard to your remark about going back and looking for your favorite quote quote and finding it gone.
23:54
Uh I think that uh there there's room for both.
23:57
By that I mean, uh you know, maybe they maybe we found a unique use for the blockchain.
24:05
We we have the the actual first version, yeah, that the author wrote unchanged uh and locked down, but then we have an obvious and I think this is what's important, an obvious bifurcation, yeah?
24:24
With, you know, here's what the fan fiction did with this.
24:27
Well, that's interesting. Yeah.
24:29
Here's what um the publisher who has rights to uh muck about with uh the text of a beloved author did with it.
24:37
Are you happy with that or sad about that?
24:39
So I think that as long as it's transparent that it can lead to really great things.
24:50
I think if it's not transparent, then you know, I always put that photo up of Stalin and the guy he erased, So I've ever meant yet.
24:59
And and so I don't think that's cool.
24:59
I mean, if you start [ __ ] around with Shakespeare, I'm going to be very unhappy.
25:08
But I would love to be able to see an iterated Shakespeare you know, Shakespeare for the 20th or 21st century.
25:18
Um and you know, the the the idea of building using it as a jumping off point, right?
25:23
And and paying homage to this brilliant uh man uh who you know, it's it's like the old joke, if Shakespeare didn't if it's not in Shakespeare, it's not worth thinking about. Right.
25:40
But now everything got to be Shakespeare if you're not going to have anything else.
25:42
Well, you know, it's like funny, right?
25:43
So uh we're uh watching the show Succession and uh they had a big reveal last night.
25:49
They killed uh the protagonist Logan Roy.
25:54
And I I'm fascinated by it because I watch the show and I see King Lear. Right? Okay.
26:03
I mean, it just is a doppelganger and this is again, huh, I wonder what would happen if we updated Lear, but made him a media mogul in a fictional Rupert Murdoch, for example.
26:15
And and I'm excited by things like this because it's a good show.
26:23
And like people who might never be willing to read Lear are seeing Lear, you know, on on the TV screen.
26:30
What are your thoughts about that?
26:32
What do you think about it?
26:36
If the ads cool, again it goes back to kind of what I was just thinking about and talking about earlier but like you know, old form filled with new content.
26:42
So again, it's like the the basically the plot of Lear but then kind of like you know, updated and stylized and kind of you know, filled up with contemporary specifics and details.
26:53
But that's like you know, these classic arts and classic stories like Oedipus and stuff, you kind of see them they're evergreen kind of for a reason, I think.
27:00
So I think yeah, but with AI it's going to be so much exploration with and iterations of these things.
27:07
And even as you said like you know, fan fic, these kind bifurcations of fan fic and I think with the idea that that the reader can also these kind of I remember it was um on Netflix.
27:18
It was kind of um an immersive movie where you could you could you had option like the the you could click buttons to go left or right.
27:29
That was Jabberwocky, Black Mirror.
27:32
Yeah, something like that.
27:32
Yeah, I mean that back there is Jabberwocky.
27:34
Um so that kind of stuff in reading context as well, I think could be there's never been a sense of agency with reading. I don't know.
27:44
Nothing comparable to like you know, online gaming or stuff like that which is you know, you could bring a generation back as well, you know, in in some capacity. But um yeah.
27:54
Yeah, what do you think about that?
27:56
What do you think you bring up AI?
27:58
You know, I'm very pro open AI.
28:01
I'm not a big fan of closed AI because I think that uh a very few people controlling such a powerful technology leads to a panopticon, which is a very bad thing.
28:15
Even though Jeremy Bentham the utilitarian philosopher whose corpse is still on display in in at the college in London, right?
28:25
Oh, I never knew that actually. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:27
Yeah, he's stuffed and he sits in a glass case.
28:29
I can't I I think it's ironic. A very, right?
28:35
But so Bentham came up with the idea of a panopticon as a kindness to prisoners in the UK because at the time that he was envisioning it, like the conditions for prisoners were unspeakably bad.
28:54
And and yet what it evolved into was this kind of all-seeing eye.
28:59
And uh that's not good for people, it's not good for society, in my opinion.
29:05
Uh but AI, so I'm I'm a huge fan of iterating with AI, right?
29:11
So ideas, I have a bunch of ideas about X, Y, and Z and then I stick them into GPT-4 and say, give me some more ideas about this.
29:23
And then I look at those, I think, yeah, I don't like this one, I don't like this one, but I do like this one.
29:29
So I capture the ones I like feed it back into the GPT and iterate a list of I just recently sent one around at OSV.
29:40
I think you were copied on that. Um I did. Yeah, I I that.
29:43
And and I think that um this sort of centaur man plus AI is going to be the model that ultimately wins.
29:54
What do you What do you think about AI and and writing?
30:00
So I'm I'm worried about the plus.
30:03
But I think cuz you know it's human tendency towards like you know slippery slopes of least resistance and kind of like you know heavily lean on the on the centaur.
30:11
Like you know when I think about memory I could in an ideal world you know we would have kind of used our computers to kind of store all the extra stuff but also kind of like you know kept our own memory muscles pumping as well.
30:22
You know You see you see people I see people older than me with something I don't really even have myself like you know recite a poem from memory.
30:32
And that's kind of like aside exactly exactly.
30:35
Aside from like you know rap lyrics and stuff like rappers' names like I'm kind of I draw a blank and I'm lost.
30:44
Like necessarily bred invention in that respect.
30:46
So I'm kind of There is a worry that for example like things like Grammarly as as they get really really good I think people just won't bother learning like you know the rules of grammar in the first place and that makes it difficult to like Shakespeare did kind of break them efficiently.
31:06
Like there's like a famous meeting of Picasso where he like at 80 he was kind of basically doing hyperrealistic pictures and then he just got mad.
31:12
Once he'd mastered the actual rules themselves then he went mad because he got to break them in the most artistic ways possible.
31:20
So it's like if people don't have these rules in their head in the first place and it's all laid out in front of them.
31:26
I wonder is there going to be that engagement with the rules themselves or will it kind of be entirely externalized like I think some memory is becoming Now it kind of makes creative process occurring within one's head.
31:42
Like the the models aren't there to connect internally.
31:46
It's all laid out in front of you which kind of and that dehumanizes the process a little bit.
31:53
But on the other hand when if people are able to kind of like you know grab hold of that plus and kind of keep the human and centaur kind of straddled in some way then I think there's like a next level kind of quantum leap that could be possible for those people who kind of has the the mental fortitude to hold on to their sense of self while using the tools and not leaning on them.
32:14
So so much to unpack there because I when I listen to you I immediately think well that's going to give a tremendous edge to the people who do learn the rules who do read the old who do have the however unreliable memory.
32:37
Like I I can recite 100 poems from memory and I did that just because my my dad was into it and like I thought it was cool.
32:46
Honestly I just thought it was cool.
32:50
And you know I still remember reciting The Love Song of J.
32:54
Alfred Prufrock when when we were my wife and I newly married we were in the Bahamas on an out island Abaco which at the time had horrible roads.
33:07
Anyway you would try to go from Treasure Cay where we were to Marsh Harbour and your car would inevitably break down with a flat tire or something and so there was a cultural habit that if you saw somebody broke down you'd pick them up.
33:22
And so we saw a couple broken down and and picked them up and we got to talking and and turned out that the wife was a literary major and so I I recited the love song of J. Alfred Prufrock. Now this is in the 80s.
33:42
Even in the 80s she looked at me and she goes you did that to get girls didn't you?
33:50
And I was like you nailed me but I got one so but the the idea that an edge can be created a big edge I think if if you truly embrace the centaur model and and don't take the lazy way out.
34:07
I think Yeah you know the the power law power laws rule everything around us right?
34:17
And and so 80% probably will take the easy way out and I think that that will collapse into a sameness and a dullness and a you know kind of like corporate speak if you will that is passive unengaging and on distinctive unoriginal.
34:43
And and so I think that people are switched on enough to sort of intuitively say ah you know that looks like it was just written by an AI.
34:54
It'll probably become like a term of art right?
34:56
Yeah give me something that isn't written by an AI. What do you think?
35:03
Yeah the AI speak or something of the kind yeah.
35:06
And then I think now as you were saying that as well I think I may have been romanticizing even my own how many people actually learn the rules of grammar in the first place.
35:13
I think that there was like there was a lot of bad It's not as if you know writing was great and then this is kind of like regressive lower.
35:19
This may just like you know I think 80% of writing is probably terrible as it is and it may just kind of slightly bump that to like an actually improved level but then those who you know hold on to the the sense of human plus AI you would just like you know there would be like a marked jump in quality there as well.
35:40
So it may may just kind of move further entrenched divisions that already exist but then raising both levels but the human plus AI at even higher against it would be a net positive in both situations.
35:51
Let's talk about Write of Passage and why you as one who have degrees at both a bachelor's and a master's in in literature and and writing what what drove you to say ooh Write of Passage I'm going to I'm going to give this a go.
36:12
Yeah well I was familiar with the Dave Perell and that kind of world of online writing that kind of didn't really exist either in like you know the highly corporatized kind of copywriting culture or in the highly affected academic online culture either.
36:32
And so it was kind of this middle ground and then I was kind of coming out of the end of my master's and I was kind of flirting with PhD tracks and things like that.
36:39
So it kind of it caught my eye in the internet as I was turning my body left towards into a PhD at the So I thought you know what let me just kind of dip my toe in this world and see what's going on.
36:54
And then things kind of snowballed from there.
36:56
And again it wasn't even the sense like I've been writing for years.
36:59
I think been published a few places in my kind of university all I wanted to do was write anyway.
37:05
So it wasn't even the writing part of all of it that was useful to me but it's kind of just the community you know it sounds kind of you know cliche but it was the the community part of it literally talking about these things out loud wasn't something I was used to and I coming from where I came from and in university just kind of not going and kind of doing my own stuff.
37:24
So it was kind of it was a solo silent mission from kind of day one.
37:30
So then actually opening up and getting to first again be here people kind of talking enthusiastically about writing without kind of like you know it being derogatory in any sense.
37:39
And and then kind of then you know speaking myself and things like that and kind of just seeing you know genuine enthusiasm.
37:46
There's a lot of kind of thinly veiled cynicism and stuff especially kind of online but kind of seeing raw enthusiasm or something is kind of unique.
37:57
Like it's kind of cool to be kind of like you know ironically detached nowadays.
38:02
I think it's kind of a nice safety mechanism from getting burned or getting owned in any kind of particular way.
38:08
So yeah that's kind of and then from there then it was a a short skip and a jump to all this big And and and what did you take away I I love the idea of the shared enthusiasm right?
38:22
So I'm I'm very bullish on that aspect of you know the internet as the greatest variance amplifier in human history but it also allows people with similar interests to find one another and to share their enthusiasm to you know sort of bring up the level of I I idea creation etc.
38:49
in a collaborative way that you know simply wasn't possible pre-internet certainly.
38:56
You know we would have certainly never met unless I happened to be visiting Ireland and you know literally bumped into you or I was in Amsterdam and wanted to take in one of the classes that you Those are really low probability events.
39:15
But the thing that I love about David's initiative Write of Passage is this idea that he also encourages everyone to put yourself out there and he encourages the idea that I agree with which is writing has never been more important in my opinion.
39:36
Because we're still very text-based.
39:36
Now we're coming up with other technologies, right?
39:43
And YouTube is incredible for lots of things.
39:45
So, so, but this sort of idea, the book that I'm always recommending and holding up on flattening, which is the Mimetic Sonics, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
40:02
And and what I love about this book is we are now at a at a kind of uh connecting point where words alone are not going to be just the the only medium.
40:17
Like words, visuals, memes, uh all of those types of things are going to blend together.
40:24
Generative AI is going to be able to um weave stories, words, images, etc. together.
40:31
And and I think it's going to probably create a cool new art form.
40:39
Um at which he got a jump start on.
40:44
Um and I wonder though, like do do you think that it's only going to be the people who have this kind of driving passion?
40:59
Well, let me ask you this.
40:59
Like were there people in your cohort at Write of Passage that were that were there, you know, just because like they realized they were horrible writers and and they needed to up their game? Eight.
41:20
It didn't seem that that pragmatic, I think. Kind of in a good way.
41:23
Kind of see that it was kind of a direction that they just wanted to turn.
41:27
A lot of it for the first time, so they probably didn't like, you know, rate themselves that highly at writing in the first place.
41:35
But it it didn't seem that kind of transactional the way people were speaking.
41:38
It was like a different state of mind it seemed that they were pursuing.
41:42
A lot of them kind of like, you know, taking a a sideways exit out of this corporate life or things like that.
41:47
They kind of saw writing as a way of exploring themselves and their lives in a day-to-day in an entirely new way and kind of a new charge, which I think lends itself to the enthusiasm.
41:58
It sounds as if like, you know, it's not I'm not approaching it basically how I approach college, which is just like, you know, bare minimum, be strategic, and then get your piece of paper at the end.
42:08
Like people are kind of like there for the minute-to-minute.
42:10
Um to get a kind of a it was kind of a self-improvement mission as opposed to I want to, you know, 10x my writing.
42:17
You Um the hack writing hack type of ethos wasn't present. Actually, Yeah.
42:27
And it seems to me that that's what was lost in academia, right?
42:30
The enthusiasm, the shared experience, the all of that because like academic writing Oh my god, it's like it is beyond difficult to like it almost seems to me that it is aggressively um opaque and and and very very it it almost dares you.
42:56
We dare you to read this whole [ __ ] essay, right?
43:03
And and that just seems so self-defeating to me.
43:06
Why do you think that like Why do you think And by the way, it's not just as we said earlier, it's not just the literary uh No. uh uh arts.
43:18
I mean, good lord, the academic papers that I've read on my old field, quantitative investing, they're like unreadable.
43:27
You think that there's some What's going on there?
43:31
Well, this kind of there's a two answers.
43:33
There's kind of a conspiratorial answer, and then there's kind of a human nature answer.
43:36
I think one of the reasons for that is, especially when the humanities side of kind of really speak to the mathematics side of this.
43:46
Um it's just not my field.
43:48
I've tried I've I've read them like when I had to, but I had kind of really tell the difference between like a great one of these papers and a really really bad one as as well as a kind of a humanities But I think there's an interiority complex with the humanities, which is kind of like, you know, we're not a science.
44:03
So, to make up for that, we kind of have to make ourselves sound as scientific as possible.
44:07
That's kind of where you see the izationization of like, you know, nouns, etc.
44:14
Like, you know, no personal pronouns anything like that to kind of try and make it seem a little more kind of official and a little more objective.
44:27
Uh then I think there's a quite famous quote from John Searle, I think, where he was I think he was speaking to Foucault, who said, "Yeah, so he basically just used to write his essay and then he said I I would just add 50% nonsense just to make people just to keep people guessing and to kind of add a sense of mystery."
44:44
So, I think there might be an element of that as well, which, you know, when you're against trying to argue against you, and you kind of make yourself esoteric and a little bit vague.
44:51
Kind of like, you know, it's a a safety mechanism for critique and counterargument.
44:57
So, I think there's probably multiple streams flowing into that unreadability.
45:04
But yeah, it's definitely not good. Whatever's happening.
45:07
It And and so what's interesting What's interesting about that is we as you noted earlier about Picasso and, you know, Charlie Mingus, the jazz pioneer, said the same thing to his son about music.
45:19
Like, but his son was actually an artist and and he was asking his dad whether he could just go abstract immediately.
45:26
And Mingus said, "No, no, no.
45:29
You got to learn how to paint a real apple first, and then you can go and explore other things."
45:38
Same with Picasso, right?
45:38
Like if you look at Picasso's early paintings, he was a master.
45:42
And then he went and and uh explored very very different uh ideas and, you know, the sort of the classic bull painting that uh Steve Jobs used to use as an example of you take the concrete and then you have the ability to abstract it, and he used uh Picasso's bull, right?
46:07
With the first one is the actual bull, and then it's just lines at the bottom, but we humans understand exactly that that is a bull.
46:17
And I wonder the the I wonder if society and culture in which you grow up in either represses that, your idea of I'm going to add, you know, 50% bollocks to look important, right?
46:35
Um and verse, you know, the masters.
46:38
The masters have always been kind of that way. They distill, right?
46:42
They don't they don't add.
46:45
Generally, they subtract.
46:47
Even in writing it's called killing your darlings, right? Yeah.
46:49
Um and I've always found that in uh things that I've written, like you make them better by taking away for the most part.
47:00
And if your objective is clarity and uh trying to get people to understand what you're talking about, it seems to me that simple words are better than complex ones.
47:14
Let's just take it back to um society and culture in which you grow up because I'm fascinated by the the number of Irish writers and thinkers punching way above their weight in terms of population, right?
47:32
So, there's a great book about Ireland, the the island of saints and scholars. And uh why?
47:42
What Why do you think there are so many like James Joyce obviously springs to mind.
47:47
He invented a completely new way of writing.
47:50
And and was broadly criticized for it, but he was an incredible genius.
47:56
But you had you had a list of Irish writers and like it's it's amazing how why? Why do you think?
48:06
You see, I have this I have to take it back a little bit a few days only cuz I just sprung to mind is kind of the cat coming in and me as I was thinking.
48:13
And I was kind of doing some population map, you know, it's bigger and like this per capita it's like it literally doesn't make sense.
48:22
I think that the oral culture definitely has a lot to do with it.
48:24
I think that's kind of why the short short story um craft in Ireland is particularly strong with people like Frank O'Connor and the like.
48:35
And I think that was kind of a a basis from which a lot of them built.
48:40
They I think they were kind of the chance we were on as a couple of those fellows.
48:45
And I I think then I was I think the weather has like a disproportionate effect.
48:50
Only kind of living in Spain, and I think you know, people are kind of outside all the time, and it's kind of a social hub, a lot of chatting, a lot of things like, you know, we just work my nana, this type of thing.
49:02
I think being kind of locked in remote places with the rain and the cold, and you kind of have nothing else to do but to kind of like, you know, entertain yourself.
49:09
All this took place pre-engine and pre-television when you're kind of really out of options for out of pasture time.
49:15
I think that was kind of a a kind of a nuclear setting that kind of just set connections going.
49:24
Um I think that has something to do with it.
49:27
Out the whole point didn't I didn't decide to know whether it did more damage than good.
49:31
I think I saw somebody I think they were speaking the other day was had some study in Ireland with some black boat that fire out the holidays like you know correlated at least with like higher literary output in populations or something of the sort.
49:45
I don't know perhaps that you know stereotypes are there for a reason. Yeah, I don't know.
49:51
I I love the weather angle because one instantly thinks of the Russians, too, right? Exactly, yeah. Cold, yeah.
49:58
In gulags often like you know do things by memory like when they had nothing else to do.
50:02
Yeah, I think honestly this something to be said and this is kind of a Well, that there's kind of a lot of tragic parallels as well.
50:09
That's oppression and repression and things like that or what because there's pain at the heart of that which is kind of bizarre.
50:19
strong correlation between the Russians and the Irish in that sense particularly as well.
50:23
And also a defiant spirit of the of the greatest writers.
50:27
Like the history of Ireland and the UK and the UK's repeated attempts to dominate Ireland.
50:38
Of course, it didn't start with the UK.
50:39
Caesar tried to take over Ireland, too.
50:42
And and what's fascinating is I love Irish history um and got an opportunity to like learn the history of the O'Shaughnessy family, right?
50:56
And and then actually visit the ruins of the castles in Galway and there's a a very brief pamphlet but really instructive called the White Sheeted Fort and it's about the history of the O'Shaughnessy family.
51:13
And one of the things that was really interesting was they were sort of warlords, very powerful warlords in Galway.
51:22
And then the Brits came up with this clever idea of surrender and regrant nobility where where they would go to Ireland and say listen or surrender your Irish nobility and we will instantly regrant you British nobility.
51:43
Which is pretty clever actually if you think about it.
51:45
But the Irish being the Irish, especially the O'Shaughnessys, they were very stubborn and they're like [ __ ] thick, [ __ ] off. You slimy bastard.
51:56
And anyway, right during the reign of Charles the First, they used to call whoever was the head of the clan the O'Shaughnessy or the O'Sullivan, right?
52:06
Whoever was the leader of the clan was the O'Shaughnessy.
52:10
Well, during the reign of Charles the First, the O'Shaughnessy kind of was like, hey, I like that deal. And he did it.
52:20
And he surrendered his Irish nobility and was regranted British nobility.
52:24
Of course, if you know your history, Charles the First got his head cut off by a fellow called Cromwell who went over to Ireland and seized all of the O'Shaughnessy lands not because they were Irish nobles but because they were British nobles.
52:42
And then it was literally it's like Kafka's Metamorphosis.
52:44
We you know powerful warlords in Galway, you know, Irish nobility surrender and regrant briefly become British nobles Cromwell seizes all of the lands because of that.
52:59
By the time of the restoration of Charles the Second, the O'Shaughnessy was another guy and he was like, [ __ ] off, we're not British nobles, we're Irish nobles.
53:08
And then subsistence farming on boat to America.
53:17
In many ways though like that the diaspora for the Irish was like almost one of the best things that could have happened because if you look if you look at the impact that the Irish have had as on on the world, right?
53:29
It it was generally not in Ireland where where those huge impacts were being made but elsewhere.
53:40
What What do you What do you think about that?
53:45
Yeah, but there's there's something about the the the spread of Ireland and there's a sense of having to get away and to look back on it properly and you're kind of seeing that with Martin McDonagh as well.
53:56
He gets a lot of slack, you know, being a a London-born man.
54:01
But he kind of speaks about Ireland in ways that I find like you know highly authentic and so familiar with what he's talking about that he's a kind of afforded to be that ironic with some people a joke.
54:12
But then again, Joyce I think wrote most of Ulysses in Paris and I've gone out of the country again.
54:16
And then of course you have all the Irish diaspora in America as well.
54:24
Um Well, yeah, they say anything Irish would have taken over the world if it wasn't for whiskey.
54:27
I think there's some kind of book with some title to that effect anyway.
54:30
But yeah, it's remarkable.
54:31
There's kind of a similarity there as well.
54:33
I've seen a lot of parallels in the same way we were talking about the tragic correlations between the Irish and the Russians.
54:38
I've seen like loads of papers and books talking about the parallels being the Irish and Jews as well on the comedy front.
54:46
kind of being this kind of persecuted minority that had to kind of find clever ways to fight back and they kind of built up kind of subversive coded common tongue that kind of like you know developed because Irish we punch way above our weight in comedy as well with comedians and comedy writing in general.
55:06
Like and as to the Jewish people as well in the States, there's kind of something crazy and disproportionate about that as well which doesn't come from the weather I don't know.
55:14
Yeah, perhaps it comes from the weather, too.
55:15
But I think it is that kind of having to be clever about that there's like you know slang culture that kind of developed into you know highly ironic and subtle comedy as well.
55:28
I I love that comparison and I I have a good Jewish friend who we were out for kind of a rollicking night and he was a bit in his cups when he looked at me and he said, you know, Jim, I got a confession to make and I went, what's that, Michael?
55:44
And he said I really thought I hated Christians until I met the Irish.
55:52
And I looked at him and I went, Michael, the Irish are pagans. That's why you like us.
55:58
But then we actually later got into a more serious conversation about the similarities between Jews and and Irish people.
56:07
And and one of the things that we alighted on was this veneration for education and learning.
56:15
And at the time, I don't know if this is true today but when one looked at the Fortune 500, the two top slots of ethnicity occupied by the CEOs of these Fortune 500 companies were Irish Catholics and Jews.
56:37
And my friend made the point that what what two groups venerate education more? What do you think?
56:49
Yeah, that would be the the Jewish people are famous for that.
56:53
And I almost said in the same situation people as well where it's like you know education number one.
56:56
I'm not sure whether in Ireland itself education well in my locality whether it's rated that highly in a general sense.
57:06
But I think that's different for Irish diaspora.
57:10
Because obviously in a different country you're on the back foot and you kind of have to forge new ground yourself.
57:14
So this kind of immigrant mentality plus Irishness may very well do that which the kind of the Jewish had as well.
57:21
But I don't know whether Irish on Irish soil whether we're asked that it Maybe things have changed in my generation.
57:28
I'm not sure how education is going to go.
57:31
interesting thought actually because you know, when the Irish came to America like they were America was openly hostile to the Irish.
57:43
You know, there used to be signs in bars, no dogs or Irish allowed indentured servitude, yeah.
57:49
indentured servitude, the whole thing, right?
57:51
And and so what did the Irish go into in America? They went into power. Right?
57:59
So they went in Tammany Hall, the police department.
58:02
They went and tried to grab and actually succeeded quite well in in taking over the levers of power.
58:14
So police, politicians which ultimately of course led to corporations, right?
58:20
And that those the the number of Irish Catholic um CEOs.
58:31
I wonder though is there something unique about the idea where people are kind of forced out of their own country as you say like yeah, the Irish elsewhere are really into education but not so much here in Ireland.
58:48
I I hadn't even considered that.
58:50
I think I have to think about that for a while.
58:52
Um because I've always found like I love Ireland.
58:58
I think it's one of the most beautiful countries in the world.
59:01
But I love also just the Irish people.
59:04
Like when you go and the conversation is just like it's incredible.
59:11
When when I took my kids there in the early aughts, the we still refer to the fellow who was helping us with our rental car because he was like a poet, a comedian and you know, all wrapped in one and we still we still do the routine even to this day.
59:30
Like he couldn't eat the car wasn't ready obviously, right?
59:37
So he would come out and he'd tell us a story that was incredibly entertaining about something else completely.
59:41
And then and then he would come back to the car and he'd say, "We're getting it ready for you. 5 minutes tops."
59:51
And of course 2 hours later.
59:54
But he kept us so incredibly entertained.
59:58
And like you don't see that in almost any and I've traveled very extensively, right?
1:00:04
You don't see He was He was a car guy.
1:00:07
And yet here he was like incredibly entertaining.
1:00:10
And and that we found and of course I lived there when I was a kid for a summer.
1:00:18
And like even and that was the Paleolithic era to someone like you. It was the 1960s.
1:00:26
But I you know, we found exactly the same thing.
1:00:31
So the a nation of storytellers? Yeah.
1:00:38
Yeah, I think there's kind of some like accelerated evolution going on with the parents to conversation.
1:00:41
And it's kind of like you know, the whole fish doesn't know it's wet type thing when we're there.
1:00:50
But then it's kind of like when for example, we went to I was in I was in Paris for a year on Erasmus.
1:00:56
And then we're kind of I was there with one of my good friends who's also from about about Swiss.
1:01:02
All of a sudden we're like, "Okay, we're kind of like you know, on our own here frequency-wise with the parent to conversation."
1:01:07
Even amongst like you know, people from English but but people from other English-speaking countries, we were like, "Okay, like a we have to like you know, kind of slow down not not even in speed but in like you know, it's kind of a a shorthand which is you know, perhaps I think other countries have that as well.
1:01:26
But like there's a kind of a rapidity and a shorthand there.
1:01:29
And kind of a a storytelling thing that kind of immediate resortment to humor and undercutting and whenever possible that you do kind of miss as soon as you leave it.
1:01:38
You kind of realize, "Oh, that's not that's not here now.
1:01:42
I kind of have to reset and recalibrate to my surroundings now."
1:01:48
But then again, it's very unique and yeah, I've been most places I've been to America but I've been most places English-speaking non-English speaking and it seems to be quite rare. So so why Spain?
1:01:58
What Why did you decide to move to Spain?
1:02:04
So I kind of had a long a long love affair with Spain.
1:02:06
But when I finished high school, I took a year out before university.
1:02:12
Kind of didn't really know what I wanted to do per se.
1:02:15
So I went just to I think I found out on a Wednesday and then on the Saturday, I just moved to Tarragona to work in kind of kind of an educational English camp for I think it was like 6 months or something like that.
1:02:27
And then met a few people there and then since then, I just have friends here, friends in Ireland.
1:02:32
We kind of come back and forth between Canarians here.
1:02:37
It's like now friends in Madrid. I went to their wedding.
1:02:39
So I kind of built up roots.
1:02:40
And this again, it's kind of the only hot country that I've visited so far that kind of approaches an Irish level of kind of joviality and kind of general fun and laughter which I found is not as common in some cultures and countries as I'd prefer.
1:03:00
And so yeah, it's kind of just it's kind of cheap, sunny.
1:03:02
It's nice to work outside as opposed to you know, being cooped up.
1:03:06
So it's kind of takes many boxes now I will say. And language barriers?
1:03:15
Yeah, it's kind of always starts rough cuz I kind of and I lose it quick cuz it's all conversational.
1:03:19
One of these I kind of said last 2 years I've said this is this is the year that I actually get fluent and sit down with a textbook and instead of burning through it.
1:03:30
Um so I know enough to get around relatively quickly.
1:03:32
But then whenever I kind of go again, it disappears pretty quick.
1:03:35
So I'm in the the rapid onset Spanish learning again now at the moment.
1:03:41
Just to kind of get around especially beyond there's basically no English whatsoever which is good. Yeah.
1:03:44
Total There's no way out. Total immersion, right? So so what's next? OSV is amazing.
1:03:54
And obviously we we are sponsoring that with you. What's next for you?
1:04:03
Um well, I suppose on the OSV front, I'm kind of just trying to jump into as many projects as I can.
1:04:07
So the main one being Tinker Thinker.
1:04:10
Or so I'm really looking forward to getting He just added He sent out a tweet saying apologizing to me the other day that he just added two more.
1:04:18
So it's 52 stories that he now has with White Mirror.
1:04:20
So I've gone through We've had to have a shared Google Google Doc now.
1:04:25
So we're kind of just that going through them um just methodologically story by story.
1:04:32
Probably go through various levels kind of go with like a linguistic back and forth, narrative back and forth, character back and forth.
1:04:41
And I could to go level by level.
1:04:43
Uh which kind of not something that I've never done before but it's something that I've been reading about and wanting to get my teeth into for a very very long time. So I can't wait.
1:04:51
Me and him for him it's his first time kind of dealing with the external and all creative force as well.
1:04:55
Besides So I I think the human plus attention picture.
1:05:02
So I think we're both kind of excited to get everything started with that. Yeah.
1:05:06
And obviously that's one of our big initiatives and I I just think that the collaboration and creativity that we're going to see over the next 10 years is going to be explosive.
1:05:18
And so I I so I'm super excited about it.
1:05:22
Well, I think you you know, if you've listened to any of my podcasts, I don't know.
1:05:29
And at the end we always ask we're going to we're going to make you the emperor of the world.
1:05:34
And we are you can't kill anyone.
1:05:37
You can't incarcerate anyone.
1:05:40
But you can we're going to give you a magic microphone and you can say two things into it.
1:05:47
And the entire population of the world whenever their morning is, they're going to wake up the next morning and they're going to say, "Huh, I think I'll and fill in the two things that you're going to incept in them. What you got for me?
1:06:04
Read a chapter of something and write down what you think about it. Like that.
1:06:11
So you're using that as one or two?
1:06:14
Because that I would accept that as a single command line and it would give you another one.
1:06:20
Okay, I'll take another one and show up to somebody.
1:06:21
Just to add that that extra bit of pressure to it. I love that.
1:06:27
Read a chapter of something, write it down and show it to somebody.
1:06:29
Like that would make the world a much much better place, I think. Yeah.
1:06:34
I think everyone would be thinking in a way that they hadn't thought about in a long time. I love it. It's lights and dread. I love it.
1:06:43
Well, Dylan, we're delighted to have you as a member of the team.
1:06:47
Other than at at at OSV, where where can our listeners and viewers find your stuff?
1:06:56
Um so I think Twitter's probably the best place that I know before.
1:06:58
I kind of share everything through there.
1:07:01
It's been kind of like I hope.
1:07:03
So I'll see you on the other side anyone listening.