0:00
I don't stay stuck and I don't stay depressed. that.
Search this video
0:03
I'm almost like, "No, you got to get over that really fast.
0:04
Don't blame people for stuff. Don't stay stuck. Get on with it. Get out of bed.
0:09
Put one foot in front of the other. Start doing dishes.
0:12
You'll start feeling better, I promise."
0:15
The best-selling author and host The number one health and wellness podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty Jay, I think you were one of the like very first people who graced us with your presence on our show.
0:27
You know, like we were such a new show and nobody wanted to talk.
0:36
It was the height of the pandemic.
0:37
People really didn't know what to say. I get it.
0:42
I didn't know what to say.
0:42
I was like, "I feel like ironically isn't the world telling us to be quiet and listen and I have to go find my voice right now?" I know. very counterintuitive.
0:53
But you were kind enough and I you know, I get it.
0:56
It's like I think there was probably like, "What is this show and why would we want to talk about stuff you know, right now?"
1:06
Um but there was also such a need for community at that time.
1:09
But I just thank you for coming on so early and daring to come on something that we ourselves were literally in establishment mode.
1:20
We were trying to set it up for success in the way that like we wanted it to be something we loved and believed in, but everything was going to have to be done differently. Yeah, definitely.
1:31
You know, in 2019 when we were making the show, it was not going to be that show. But what did we keep? What did we change? How do we pivot? How do we move forward?
1:40
So thank you because It makes a difference when people see you coming on the show then they think "Oh, that's safe. Maybe I'll try that." Well, no. I mean So thank you.
1:52
No, I was actually so grateful that you thought of me and invited me and the team reached out to me.
1:55
I was so looking forward to connecting with you.
1:57
I think you just have such a positive presence in everything you do and your energy radiates.
2:04
When I met you backstage, I was telling my team because Paul was here with me last time when we came in person.
2:08
Helena wasn't and I was saying to them backstage, I was like, "That interaction we had, had the lights been on backstage, I would have shared it because it's such a special interaction.
2:19
Like the energy you greeted me with and the warmth that you had for me, I was just like, "Wow, I feel like I'm meeting a long-lost friend."
2:25
And it was just such a special moment and no one got to see that.
2:29
It was totally behind cameras, but I wanted people to know because that's who you are and that's how you appear to everyone and approach everyone, whether you're backstage, on camera, off camera, wherever you are.
2:39
And so, I saw that before and I'm so grateful I got to see in person.
2:42
I think it's also good to be wary of people who are different in different places and rooms, you know?
2:46
That was always something like growing up in the job that I did, um there was a lot of performative uh people um who were different in different rooms and then there were people who were attitude-nally um different in different rooms and it was like a very interesting juggling act to see like, "Why is this person different now it here as opposed to in the other room?"
3:13
Well, they Oh, they were performing. They were doing a job.
3:17
That's why they're different.
3:17
Why is this person a little different here or there?
3:21
Oh, it's because of the person. Oh, that's interesting.
3:23
So, they don't treat everybody the same. Hmm, noted. Where are you on? Where are you relaxed?
3:31
Where are you utterly yourself?
3:31
Where So, human behavior was always like so fascinating for me cuz I was trying to gauge like what kind of human do I want to be.
3:42
So, I was always looking at everybody's, you know, actions to sort of put on the sifter um of like, "What do I want to keep and what do I want to just go away and fall to the bottom.
3:55
How How early do you think you started to do that?
3:57
Because I think that that's a skill that we develop over time and I like what you said that it's not as simplistic as saying, "Oh, well, that's a bad person."
4:04
It's like, "No, that's their job. They're performing. They're working."
4:08
And then sometimes it's the person, sometimes it's the profession.
4:12
But how early did you start noticing and observing? Very early.
4:14
My mom also was like I started working at 11 months old, but I remember my mom was part of this 11 months? Oh, yeah. In a diaper. Not a euphemism.
4:25
I mean, literally, I started my job in a diaper.
4:29
It was a commercial, and people thought that like ET was maybe my first job, but it wasn't by a long shot.
4:34
I had done a lot of TV films, a lot of commercials, and even a feature film.
4:39
So, I felt comfortable at that point when I went into ET.
4:44
So, I'm I feel lucky that I was blessed, that I wasn't like a quivering lamb in the field.
4:49
Like I was always very emboldened as a kid.
4:52
I I I had so much like moxie.
4:56
I feel like I'm probably a lot more shy, respectful, and cautious now as an adult.
5:03
When I was a kid, I was so fearless.
5:07
Um but I remember my mom was a part of like this theater group at the Lee Strasberg Institute.
5:16
Um he's a very famous acting teacher.
5:16
He taught um Paul Newman and um Marilyn Monroe and Al Pacino.
5:26
They were all a part of like his you know, I wouldn't even know how to put it, but group.
5:31
Um and she was doing a play there, and I remember like this one woman who would go in the back every night before her play, and she would just lay on the stage in a quiet room, and like beat her chest and cry out so primal.
5:48
And that was such an interesting thing to witness as a kid.
5:51
I was like, "Oh, that's how she does it.
5:53
Like, that's how she gets herself to be emotional and cry."
5:57
Um so, I was always clocking like whether it was how to do this job or really I was hyper aware ever since I can remember about how people treated each other.
6:11
A lot of cliches is like, "Ugh, if someone's like rude to a waiter."
6:15
Like, that was me as an like infant.
6:18
I was so upset and put off by people who weren't nice to everyone.
6:22
Um and there were plenty of people in the job that I was in that were a little coddled and you know, but then I also saw people who you thought wouldn't be shy because they were a performer, but they were.
6:40
Um so, I was like, "Well, don't hold that against them.
6:42
That's just their real personality."
6:45
Like, I'm thinking I'm going to get this big flamboyant, gregarious, you know, loud person and they're not on right now.
6:53
They're turned off and who they are is actually this very gentle, quiet soul.
6:57
Oh, you're the world's greatest comedian, but you're kind of dark and moody. Okay.
7:04
That wasn't what I was expecting, nor is it what I want, but I have to accept that's who you are. Yeah. Okay, interesting.
7:10
So, you're observing everybody so you can make fun of it all, but if you let people in, you won't be able to.
7:18
You keep a guard up on purpose. Understood.
7:20
So, I guess I was just always trying to figure out like why people did what they did, but I still to this day like cruelty, arrogance, rudeness, short-temperedness is just I don't have time for it.
7:34
And even worse, if I am ever guilty of those things, oh my god, I take myself to task probably worse than I would anyone else.
7:46
Yeah, that's it's it's hard, isn't it?
7:46
I You've reminded me of when when I was in the monastery, there was one monk who was known for being pretty negative and being that way.
7:55
So, he had this reputation where he would always be negative, he'd be rude to people, he'd be you know, he had what you're kind of describing like there was a bit of arrogance, there was a bit of bravado, there was a bit of rudeness, uh lack of sensitivity, everything that you're mentioning.
8:16
And it's really interesting because I used to really annoy me because I kind of have a similar trait to you where I don't appreciate someone treating anyone uh special or not special or or good or bad.
8:29
I And and I think it's a hard thing to manage when you're a busy individual.
8:34
So, I'm just get guessing in your case sense it's very difficult.
8:36
So, I would often complain about him because he was always criticizing, complaining, and comparing.
8:42
And so, I would often complain about him to the other monks.
8:45
I'd be like, "This guy, like, you know, he's just always doing this." What's this monk's deal?
8:48
Literally, can you imagine?
8:51
Like, that's literally my question.
8:54
And and and it was really interesting because there are two sides to this and I want to hear your thoughts to this.
8:58
One thing one of the monks said to me, he he looked to he looked to me and he said, "What don't you like about this individual?"
9:05
And I said, "He's always comparing, complaining, and criticizing."
9:08
And he said to me, "What are you doing right now?"
9:11
I said, "I'm comparing, complaining, and criticizing."
9:14
And it was like this like moment of like I had become who I was And he said, "How did you stop yourself?"
9:18
is my question because you're very mindful, you've always I've seen you the few moments I've spent with you or whether we message, it's always been wonderful.
9:25
How did you stop yourself from letting that pain get so make you cold or make you harsh to that person also?
9:33
I think it made me more kind and empathetic.
9:35
And and you know, I also grew up in a job that's like heavy on gossip or can be and rumor and hearsay and stuff.
9:44
And I found that in my life, everybody loves an interesting story.
9:50
I mean, we're all of our ears perk up when we're like think we're going to hear something a little, you know, salacious, a little crazy, a little something.
9:59
It's something to kind of marvel at.
10:01
But I realized that I I am not a gossiper, you know?
10:04
Like I'm more I'll keep your secrets.
10:06
Um and it was sort of the same thing.
10:09
I grew up um around a lot of people who also kind of talk trash about people.
10:15
And I was like, I do not want to be around that nor be that person.
10:21
So it also made me like gravitate towards people who didn't do that.
10:29
Um and it's funny you say cuz you know, we get busy and we have a lot of responsibilities.
10:33
So I can get sort of intense or it's seemingly short-tempered cuz I'm tired and I'm trying to kind of barrel through things like You do? Absolutely. Yeah, for sure.
10:44
Okay, that is so refreshing to hear. 100% like I ask my wife. Cuz I was going to ask. my wife on the show.
10:52
Yeah, I I love your wife so much.
10:54
I mean, you two were put on this planet like you are Freud's Imago theory like two people who look alike are drawn to each other in a mirror-like sort of look in the water, you know, and see your own reflection and not based in narcissism.
11:09
It's based in like a familiarity.
11:11
No, it really it's a beautiful theory.
11:14
Um And no, so in those moments I I'm tired, I'm exhausted.
11:20
I I seem a little curt, a little short-tempered, a little intense. I would say 99.
11:25
9% of the time I never think I'm right for being that way.
11:33
And I will find myself maybe justifying here or there and even as I'm doing it I'm like you are so full of crap right now.
11:41
I really hold myself so critically accountable for wanting to go, "Okay, well then you can't take this water back and put it in the bottle.
11:54
It's spilled all over the floor.
11:55
So, how about next time try to remember something about this that can be like a trigger so that you can handle it differently."
12:04
I think so much of my adult life is becoming about the mastery of reaction.
12:13
Knowing I'm the only thing I can control, I cannot control.
12:16
And I work really deeply with this therapist who I I I just I respect.
12:23
Um he's honestly one of the smartest individuals I've ever met.
12:27
Like I'm talking like one hand like a true voice.
12:30
And he quit me at one point.
12:33
Like that's how you know high road this human being is.
12:36
He doesn't deal in toxicity.
12:38
If you're not getting better, he's not feeding off of that and thinking, "Well, this person's going to stay with me for many years."
12:44
He's like, "Our work cannot actually occur here.
12:50
So, I'm going to step away."
12:50
And I was like, "God, you're good. I love you even more. I respect you so much."
12:54
And I fought to break a cycle and a pattern that he just after 8 years was like, "I I can't do this anymore."
13:07
And I it was drinking and I when I was about 2 years and I'm I'm not sober. I don't work a program.
13:13
I have alcohol in my house like I party with my friends, you know, I that so I'm not when I say I don't drink alcohol it's just like a one lane choice of realizing something that didn't work for me.
13:23
I thought I would master my whole life. I don't. I can't.
13:28
So, after I had stopped for about 2 years because drinking was like a symptom of many problems, but it was the thing that wasn't allowing me to get to those next places.
13:39
I asked him, "Will you please reconsider taking me back? I've put in 2 years. I'm not stopping. I'm feeling really good.
13:47
Um this isn't for anyone else. It's not for you. It's for me.
13:53
I know that's what you've always wanted it.
13:54
If you do things for other people, it's so dangerous.
13:57
They can just take it away. It's a a burden.
13:59
It's you know, there's no ownership in doing things for other people when it comes to that really crucial work.
14:07
Um cuz you I love doing things for other people.
14:11
It's just a matter of and I think I'm a total codependent.
14:15
Like with my kids, like yeah, they're my whole source of life, joy, happiness, and you know, motivation. So be it. I'm a codependent. Who cares?
14:25
Like but I'm also my own individual.
14:27
They're their own individuals.
14:31
And we've got to take care of our side of the street.
14:35
So, I asked, "Could we go back to working together?"
14:38
And we did and now we're doing the best work we've done in 10 years.
14:43
And a lot of the work I do with Barry now, so much of this word comes up which is inner. Mhm.
14:53
And that's not something even though I think I was really in touch with spirituality when I was a teenager.
14:57
It was so much a part of like my salvation and raising myself and getting emancipated at 14 and living on my own and being an adult my whole life and not having any semblance of like what society says kids are supposed to do with like go to bed on time, go to school, like eat a balanced meal, all that stuff.
15:18
Like I just didn't have that in my universe.
15:21
Um but I love when Berry uses the word inner.
15:25
Um this rich inner life I'm trying to build.
15:28
That is the place in which I can tap into reaction, um processing, control, all of those things.
15:36
It's like there's really kind of only one place that that truly can take place, and it's the inner world.
15:47
And I have spent my life being an extrovert and going outwards, and that can be being a love junkie or being someone who loves to be playful and call it perform or just put myself out there or affection or jokes and humor or my love of human beings.
16:09
Like it's all out out out, and this is the first time that I feel like I'm really much more excited and ready to do this inner work.
16:23
And it's cool cuz it is it is the place where you can do so much more because a lot of those things you want to do with the outside world are not really possible or not really attainable. Like control.
16:39
Like you know, uh changing the way things are or someone out there or situation or the world at large.
16:44
These things are not controllable, but inside your world, inside your inner self, there's much to be done.
16:53
Yeah, but it sounds like with this over-analyzing, reflective self mastery work that you're doing, it sounds like at the same time as that, there's also a sense of self-forgiveness to be able to move on, especially from knowing that as a child, a you wouldn't have known about the inner in that depth.
17:17
You wouldn't have had the tools.
17:20
You were exposed to things as a child that 99% of children wouldn't be exposed to.
17:24
So, there also seems seems to be a sense of forgiveness for today and also forgiveness for that time.
17:28
Is that And you know, it's funny cuz I do think a lot of kids go through just crazy stuff, you know. Absolutely, yeah.
17:36
When I was in an institution for 2 years that my mom put me in, it was it was an adult ward too, but it was also a kid ward.
17:43
So, all these other kids I was in with, I was like, well, they're going through it too.
17:49
Whatever their roads, you know, took them to you know, self-destruction or abuse of a substance or hurting themselves or being out of control to the point where their parents didn't know what to do with them.
18:03
Um a lot of that is usually cries for help and probably not their fault always. Yes, of course.
18:10
Um but I was like, well, I guess I'm not alone in, you know, trying to you know, I'm I'm not the only one who are experiencing what we see as extraordinary circumstances, especially at a young age.
18:22
They're heightened and they seem wilder to adults.
18:26
You're 14 or 13 and you're doing these things.
18:29
Like, oh, if you were in your 20s, I guess that'd be more normal.
18:31
Wow, that's such a good point.
18:33
Yeah, I've never thought about it like that.
18:34
Yeah, that's a good point.
18:35
And then I think about kids who are, you know, challenged economically or trying to get, you know, in somewhere or they have to take care of their families or they're latchkey kids or they're trying to get into this country or they're, you know, doing things that like again, once again, we're saying, oh, this is not what children are supposed to do.
18:59
So, I'm like convinced that I'm one of many that just kind of had stuff to deal with that we wish ideally kids didn't have to deal with, but a lot of them are. Yes.
19:11
I just was never taught like what forgiveness was of myself.
19:19
But I've learned along the way far ahead of self-forgiveness cuz this is a very new concept for me. So it's super fresh.
19:26
It's like an open wound and it is not sewed up shut yet by any means.
19:28
I need stitches and some isopropyl. Like I'm working on it.
19:36
But I always was forgiving of other people.
19:38
I didn't I grew up in a very unjudgmental landscape.
19:41
You know, like for better or worse Hollywood is real open-minded.
19:47
It's real liberal and I don't mean politically.
19:50
I just mean like artistic people are kind of like a live and let live group, which is super cool.
19:57
And that was great growing up.
19:57
I was like, oh so we can just kind of let people be. Oh, okay. Like cool.
20:03
Um they're not wrong for being that way.
20:05
They're just eccentric or that's their lifestyle choice or that's their orientation or whatever.
20:08
It was great to grow up that way.
20:12
I I was always forgiving of other people and like open-minded for like whoever they are.
20:16
I realized later in life that it turns out that I thought forgiveness was a gift to someone else.
20:28
You forgiving them was giving them a gift. I suppose it is.
20:33
I never knew that there is a an irony of all ironies of that you are finally liberated.
20:40
And you can't forgive to get to liberation cuz it's fake and you don't get the reward. Mhm.
20:45
You have to truly literally go I with every part of me authentically and without wanting anything in return.
20:55
I'm not even thinking about myself. I just forgive. I forgive you. I forgive this.
21:02
Then all of a sudden you're like, oh no and now I feel really good. How weird.
21:08
But if I've ever tried to forgive something to feel better, it doesn't work.
21:11
That's not Yeah, it's not a technique. It's not a button. Yeah. it's not a technique.
21:15
It's this true I also found the ultimate form of liberation is change.
21:19
When you like stopping drinking for me, and again, not sober.
21:27
Like don't that's not it. I just don't drink.
21:31
It's the only thing that's you would that's my lifestyle choice.
21:33
I was so held back by this one thing my entire life that I swore I would master, that why wouldn't I be convinced of that I'm I'm not capable of change because I couldn't change it.
21:47
So, I'm just a failure in my inner voice and narrative.
21:51
My only evidence in front of me is you're not capable of change cuz you haven't changed this thing.
21:58
And then once I did, it was like finally I believe that I'm capable of change.
22:05
And that's you know, these things are symptoms, they're not the only problem.
22:09
You can't like stop something that isn't working for you and everything else falls into place.
22:16
There's a lot of work around it that has to be done.
22:17
And Barry's point wasn't like if you stop drinking all your problems are going to go away.
22:21
He's like we just can't get to the work cuz this shame and guilt and like pattern is just is going to prevent us from getting to the next level. So, I'm out.
22:31
And I was just like God, I love this so much and I knew he was right.
22:37
Yeah, your therapist quitting on you is pretty that's pretty inspiring for you.
22:43
cuz most therapists are like, oh, you're still broken. Fantastic. I'll see you next week. I'm I still have a job.
22:50
And so I think if you're seeking guidance, wisdom, therapy, spiritual leadership, whatever you are seeking out in this world, if you sense that person continues to feed and not help you grow and is fine with you staying in the same place, I don't think that's a good sign.
23:11
Yeah, but I I love that emphasis you're placing that it wasn't ever about the external change.
23:16
It wasn't just about oh, if you stop drinking alcohol then all your problems are solved.
23:18
It was going on this inner journey for you and I I wonder when you're doing this, you brought up two really important things.
23:27
You brought up shame and guilt and I think shame and guilt deep down whether you meet someone who seems confident or whether you meet someone who's insecure, shame and guilt are right there, right?
23:37
Even when someone feels confident or is is acting confident, often there's a shame and guilt of some part of them they're trying to hide and if someone's feeling insecure, it's because they shame and guilt themselves.
23:49
Walk us through a bit about how those two were these bad friends of yours for a while and then you were eventually able to let them go.
23:58
I'm just letting them go, especially with stuff with my mom.
24:02
Um you know, I just I think most people idealize this sort of nuclear family and I just have felt pain and guilt and shame my whole life that that wasn't our story.
24:18
All right, our life experience.
24:21
Um it hurts me to know that like there is pain there for her, for me. It just destroys me.
24:28
So, I'm I'm working on that um because I'm like I'm 47.
24:31
I can't I don't mean to be morbid, but I don't want to die carrying this with me.
24:37
Like I I will shift this. It's time. It's been long enough. I put enough time in.
24:44
So, I'm working on that with Barry right now and I'm making some really good strides and it's really hard, you know?
24:51
I I think these things are not easy.
24:52
I I felt a lot of guilt and shame around drinking cuz like a lot of my sort of least desirable experiences had probably something to do with me being drunk, you know?
25:05
So I'm like amazing that you would keep doing something that like doesn't serve you.
25:09
Um I felt pain and guilt and shame every time I did feel like I acted in a way that wasn't as gracious and patient as I wish I could always be.
25:19
Um these are really go-to overly available emotions that I am just like I can't be nearing 50 and still function like this.
25:35
So like, you know, it's like kicking out bad roommates.
25:41
You're just like, "Guess what?
25:43
You are a sloppy, horrible person. You have bad energy. You're negative. You're messy.
25:48
And like I can't live with you anymore.
25:51
Like I want to get my own place and keep it tidy.
25:53
And Jesus, like how have I managed to put up with this for so long?" Yeah.
25:59
It's like that's how I feel inside my body.
26:02
And shame and guilt are roommates I've had my whole life that I totally resent and like wish I could just give an eviction notice to.
26:09
And I'm starting to like grow a pair and actually really take charge cuz I think I know like I'm running out of time.
26:21
Like we don't live forever.
26:24
And nobody wants to think about death or dying, but it's an inevitability that we all share in common and we really don't even know actually when it's coming.
26:32
So there's a part of me that's just like I can't do this anymore. I'm fatigued. I'm exhausted.
26:39
I'm desperate to know what the other side of this feels like.
26:41
You know, we used to love 45 records and always the popular hit song was on the A side and then we would play the B side and be like, this song's actually awesome. Yeah.
26:53
I'm like, what is the B-side of my life? Mhm.
26:56
What is the life that isn't so corroded with self-loathing, guilt, shame, beating up on myself all the time.
27:04
People are like, you seem so positive.
27:06
I'm like, you have no idea what I'm dealing with on the inside.
27:09
It's so hard and heavy some days. Mhm.
27:13
Um but one thing that's I do I'm I am glad is I don't stay stuck and I don't stay depressed. that.
27:21
I can I can hear that in what you're saying and how you're saying it.
27:25
I'm almost like, no, you got to get over that really fast.
27:27
Don't blame people for stuff. Don't stay stuck. Get on with it. Get out of bed.
27:32
Put one foot in front of the other. Start doing dishes.
27:34
You'll start feeling better, I promise.
27:36
Like, cleaning is a very spiritual act and Yeah.
27:41
put on a song and like, all of a sudden you'll be shaking your butt and like moving your body and like Or jumping in the rain or Yeah, endorphins will start to come.
27:48
So, I've had these fantasies of being Greta Garbo in my bed and my friends tending to my bedside or talking on the side on the phone like, oh, we're really worried about her.
27:59
You know, it just doesn't happen cuz it's just like I I just I'm like oh god, like except for funny enough with my drinking, my friends did do that. They Yeah.
28:08
We got to We got to get in there and be honest with her. And that's true friends.
28:12
Friends who kick your butt and hold up mirrors to you Mhm.
28:17
or tell you when they don't like what they see or want you to see your reflection and feel good about it. That's true friendship.
28:22
I'm all in for tough love.
28:25
So, I I've been, you know, when I was in the institution when I was 13, they assigned me a therapist, Dr.
28:33
George Blair, I'll never forget.
28:36
Um and they had these groups um a couple nights a week where they would invite all the families and and they would put someone in the circle and they would talk to their family Wow.
28:47
openly about what led to this crazy place we were all in.
28:51
And it wasn't like a rehabilitation center.
28:53
It was a full-blown like institution. It was very hardcore.
28:57
It was much more One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
28:59
It wasn't like Promises in Malibu. Got it.
29:03
This was like real deal North Valley like 2 years of you're locked in there.
29:08
This is not a place you're allowed to leave.
29:10
If you try to leave, they will deal with you accordingly. And it's not pretty.
29:14
So, but what what they would do is they would have these families sit around in a circle and they would encourage There was no force, but it was sort of, you know, it was mandatory. Mhm.
29:28
They would sit that person down and they would sit them across from their family and then all the families would sit around and they would talk honestly about what led to them being here, what was missing, what wasn't working with their family.
29:42
There was sort of like you know, non-aggressive confrontation about like you know, the parents were just as accountable as the kids. Um it was incredible. Wow.
29:56
And it it shaped my life forever.
30:00
It wasn't like you know, we're all performers and we put it all out there.
30:04
Like that wasn't what did it. Yeah.
30:06
I am witnessing when you don't sweep things under the carpet, when you do not let them rot and start to stink, when you are willing to be brave and put it out there and discuss it out in the open, it wasn't even in front of others.
30:22
It was just to find your voice and talk directly to that person. It forever formed me.
30:28
It's like that was such an important life journey that would color my path for the rest of my life.
30:37
And weirdly, when I found out this show might actually happen in 2019.
30:45
I was like, not only of someone who's been sitting on the other side of an interview chair my whole life and you kind of get fatigue on those same questions.
30:53
Like, I was like, what if this could weirdly be a little like that group night that we would have a couple times a week where we just sit in some chairs in a group of people and talk.
31:09
And we keep it real and a lot of it was really funny. People laughed. It was heart-wrenching. It was emotional. It was humorous. It was insightful. It was raw.
31:19
And I think I'm really having an aha moment or an epiphany right now because I'm like, am I running this show the way we did in those rooms?
31:28
Like, it just was really cool to find out that talking it out and being brave to tell your truths was a good thing.
31:38
Those sound like some of the most special skills and tools that every one of us could use so early on.
31:45
And the fact that you feel you're still using them after all this time is pretty remarkable.
31:51
I have not associated the two until this moment.
31:54
But, I wasn't necessarily getting it from my job growing up.
31:56
That wasn't as much as it was a like, have all your emotions available.
32:02
It was very structured in the work.
32:03
Um, and it was very spontaneous and creative and free, but it was for a purpose.
32:08
And if anything, you were kind of pretending to be a different person.
32:11
But, like pulling on your real emotions.
32:13
I had never experienced up until that point anything like it.
32:17
And I've definitely conducted myself my whole life since I got out of there as if I still go to those group nights.
32:27
Like, I want to put it out there.
32:27
I want to I want to encourage other people to not sit on things, but discuss it. Um, be bold.
32:37
Um, and not afraid of what other people are thinking and feeling when they're digesting your sort of deepest stuff. Mhm.
32:46
Letting out secrets can be really liberating.
32:50
And I still feel like I have plenty and I'm just now like willing to even look at some like secrets.
33:02
And and being afraid of what people are going to think is is not good. It's not good at all.
33:07
What do you think was what made it safe?
33:09
Because I feel like that's what it is.
33:11
We think that environments need to be loving or they need to be caring, but really it's a sense of safety that we're looking for. What made it feel safe? The truth.
33:19
The truth and the honesty and the lack of judgment.
33:25
It that's what made it safe.
33:27
That people weren't going to nobody alienated each other.
33:30
No one treated each other less than we went on business as usual.
33:34
We felt like we knew each other better.
33:37
We were in an environment where people literally like kind of if you wanted to talk about it, you could.
33:43
If you didn't, you didn't have to.
33:45
But like nobody made each other feel bad.
33:46
So I think truth and not feeling judged or is is what leads leads to safety. Mhm.
33:53
Um, one of the things that Barry talked to me about and I'll apply it to this also is if you're if you're not feeling safe, how can you make yourself feel safe? Mhm.
34:06
If if you're not getting that from others, how do you make it okay for you?
34:12
And I went on a date with this guy.
34:13
I thought it was the best date. I mean, it really was. It was like so good.
34:16
And I we made a plan for that weekend and we were texting back and forth and it was so cute and I was like and I really liked him.
34:27
I was like, what a nice guy.
34:29
It's I was attracted to him.
34:29
I loved his job because he was, you know, um in the news business and like I love news and I'm like, "Oh my god, this is so cool."
34:40
I never heard from him again.
34:40
Like I guess that's what you call getting ghosted.
34:43
I was like, "Whoa, that is so Oh, wow, that's so weird. Um okay."
34:47
And I was talking to Barry and there's this Sex and the City where this boyfriend of hers named Jack Berger um breaks up with her on a Post-it note.
35:01
And it became this pop culture phenomenon.
35:04
And the Post-it note reads, "I'm sorry, I can't. Don't hate me."
35:10
Now, we all took that and ran with it.
35:13
The line was, "I This cannot be the day I get broken up with on a Post-it."
35:15
So they have this whole crazy adventure, but all of like pop culture and society was like, "This is the worst thing ever."
35:27
I'm like, Barry, that is the most giving thing that I could ever ask for in modern society being a single girl.
35:33
I swear to god, that's I'm sorry. Oh, okay, great. I can't. Thank you.
35:43
Now I know where you're at. I know to move on.
35:46
This is so informative that I appreciate the gracefulness and the graciousness of you like just telling me there's no there there. And don't hate me. Okay, I get it.
36:01
You're being self-effacing.
36:01
You know this is maybe not kosher, but that's okay because it's your truth.
36:05
You cannot be We can't be mad at people cuz they're not what we want them to be.
36:15
And I was like, I just wish I could get that Jack Berger Post-it note, Barry.
36:20
And he goes, "Well, you can write it to yourself." Yes.
36:23
And I literally was like, "Barry, you just took out all the frustration, anxiety, uncertainty, unfinished business, lack of control, helplessness I feel. I feel good. I feel empowered.
36:37
I feel like I want to get on a bullhorn and share this wisdom. Maybe this is a start.
36:45
It's like, "Oh my god, it was the biggest gift I could have gotten."
36:49
So, I think we can apply that to a lot of things.
36:54
It's like, "I'm not feeling safe right now because I just told my truth."
36:59
Okay, then maybe you can tell yourself why it was a good thing, why you are safe, that there will not be consequences that are unsurvivable that come out of this scenario, and help yourself off the ledge by giving and fulfilling for yourself what we normally just tend to automatically look outward and to others for.
37:21
I think what you just said right now is not only great for someone who's receiving that type of note, but it's also important for someone who often postpones that note.
37:32
So, we know so many people that are in a relationship that don't want to be in it, but they don't want to be seen as the bad person, so they'll let it stay on for another 6 months, another 12 months, another 18 months.
37:47
And those people are in a prison. Correct.
37:49
They're in a horrible jail that they have put themselves in and not dealing with that.
37:54
I have a question for you. Yeah. Okay.
37:59
How do you tell people to receive love?
38:03
I think I'm really good at giving it.
38:06
I'm great at giving it to my daughters and to my friends, but I've noticed how much of like my history with the romantic space I am so stuck and I'm the person who doesn't want to be stuck.
38:31
And I don't care necessarily what others do or what happens.
38:37
I want to know what work I could do to take my walls down, believe and trust cuz I am really trying to figure that out right now.
38:51
I've sort of told myself I'm okay, I'm fine.
38:54
I'm lucky I have two kids, so I if it comes to and I have these amazing friends and I have these beautiful co-workers, my cup really runneth over to the point where like I don't feel like I need love. I've I I'm I'm abundant.
39:13
I swear to God I'm still scared or nervous or I don't have any information that shows me that that's a safe space. So, how do I do that?
39:30
I want to get you some tissues. No pressure.
39:33
Thank Well, my first answer is going to be I have two two things.
39:35
One thing was what would Barry say?
39:40
It seems like he's Isn't he awesome?
39:41
a Yeah, he's on a roll right now.
39:41
Like we should go to Barry.
39:43
Like Barry, can we call you in and like dial you in right now?
39:46
Uh I want to meet you, but no, genuinely like what would he say?
39:50
obviously I'm sure he's shared some beautiful wisdom and insight with you.
39:52
A few things come to mind.
39:54
The first thing is I think that we've placed romantic love and I'm probably people may not agree with this, but I just want everyone to sit with this for a second and I really do believe that this is something you will appreciate or you'll be able to receive.
40:10
I really do believe that.
40:12
And if anyone else doesn't, please sleep on it. Please think about it.
40:15
I really do believe that we have placed romantic love on the pedestal and the number one position podium of love.
40:26
And so, since we were born and raised, we've been told that finding the one is the ultimate expression and experience of love.
40:35
And what's really fascinating is that if you look at any of the wisdom traditions, they don't feel that way.
40:43
All the wisdom traditions would suggest that the love that you have for your co-workers, your friends, your family, the stranger on the street, the person driving the car, the uh person that you just bumped into at the grocery store, at the coffee shop,
40:57
like the love that you can embody and experience and share with that person and receive from that person, that love that you can share with anyone and everyone you meet, that is actually the ultimate expression of love. And so,
41:09
And so, what you just said that you're great at giving love to everyone, you have this beautiful full cup around you, but it's the wiring that's been put into our minds that without this, we are incomplete, unfulfilled, and undeserving.
41:29
And so, I'm not saying that as a way of saying to people, you don't need to find someone to love.
41:33
I'm just saying that don't ever let that be it.
41:38
Uh there's there's so much more to what love truly is, and so we've got to change our order of what's love.
41:45
You know, you look at the wisdom traditions and they'll say, "The closest thing to unconditional love is a mother's love for her child." Yeah.
41:52
Like that is like the closest thing to real unconditional love.
41:55
Like it's not talking about a love between two people who romantically got involved. Like that's beautiful.
42:01
I'm not saying it's not beautiful.
42:03
I'm just saying it's not it.
42:05
I I think it's Okay, first of all, your answer is exactly what I was meant to hear.
42:13
Because I do feel that pressure.
42:15
Like it's funny how I've been single for almost 7 years, and it's been some of the happiest years of my life.
42:24
I feel so fulfilled that I'm almost like my walls are about fear of someone coming in and like tearing up the joint, you know?
42:35
Like I don't know if I'm That's right.
42:39
ready for someone to rock the boat of the goodness of the balance of the life I've ended up creating with my daughters, my friends, my co-workers.
42:51
When it didn't work out with their dad, that was a thing that took me many years to recover from cuz I so wanted the nuclear family.
42:58
It turns out we are literally having the next best thing, or maybe even the plan that was in place all along that we have We're so close. I love his wife so much.
43:10
My children and I literally are stepmother Ali.
43:13
I call her our stepmother. You know? Like that. She is the greatest.
43:18
His mom and dad are Grammy and Poppy. I'm so close to them.
43:25
His sister is one of my best friends, my children's aunt, and the mother of our three silly cousins.
43:31
Like I never dreamt I'd have this big and beautiful of a family.
43:35
There's just not a legal marriage there, but there's every single thing else there.
43:40
And since that stopped, I've just been okay.
43:46
And I think it is a lot of societal pressure.
43:48
And the reason I got so emotional asking you is because you're a monk, and probably had set yourself up for the idea that you might not experience that.
44:03
And I have probably given myself now, and you have a beautiful marriage.
44:09
Um I have probably told myself a narrative of you will not have that kind of love, but it doesn't mean that I feel any less fulfilled, but I'm in a mindset of oh, that particular type of love is not available to you. Yeah.
44:24
So, I asked you of all people because you probably had that narrative in your head yourself at some point. definitely.
44:33
I mean, that's And I couldn't agree more with you.
44:36
Like, that needs to be on billboards and like, really a much more common confident understanding of love is love.
44:48
Which is the best kind or the most important kind or the one you think you're supposed to have, that is not the point. Mhm.
44:58
And boy, I knew I should ask you, and I just got the most satisfactory answer.
45:03
I I've probably never verbalized that answer to anyone else either in in this sort of forum because I I genuinely believed when you asked me that question that you know, obviously knowing that all types of love are available to everyone is an important thing.
45:15
That's that's a separate thing to focus on, but I think the hierarchy that we've placed on love is what's distorting our vision of what we need. follows you forever. Forever.
45:27
I didn't have a relationship with my dad.
45:30
He left before I was born.
45:33
That that I accepted that. Mhm.
45:33
You know, but like, another woman will be like, I'm 45 and not married or this or that, and it's like, this society allows that to really haunt you in a different way than well, when it comes to love and a man, my father and I didn't have that, but we move forward or maybe it holds us back spiritually or emotionally, but not societally. Yeah. You're right.
45:55
We have put that romantic love on a pedestal that seems to like if you don't have that kind of love, it diminishes the other kinds of loves which can be not only as equally fulfilling and satisfying.
46:14
Gosh, that I really is Well, that's society's problem, not our problem.
46:20
know people who love their work, but feel incomplete without that.
46:22
I know people who love their children, but feel incomplete without that.
46:26
I know people who have the love of their entire tribe and community, but feel incomplete without that because of the way it's been portrayed.
46:33
And I think that when you also put something on a pedestal like that, your expectations of that also go up.
46:40
And that's the main reason why that one causes us the most pain because we also have more expectations of that partner than we do of our kids, of our parents, of our friends, of our family because of that pedestal, too. So agree more.
46:53
I also like I think it's bananas the way that people are so affected by the person they're in a, you know, romantic relationship with.
47:00
I always compare it to Well, you wouldn't be as so upset if your friend did that. Yeah.
47:06
Yeah, that's just be direct and you'd figure it out and you'd fix it and you wouldn't take it so personally and flip out and have built up all these resentments.
47:14
Like friends have a delicate relationship and a garden you still have to tend to, but the reactions are way less heated.
47:26
Why is it that the minute sexual stuff is involved, we literally like flip out? Like what is going on? Yeah.
47:34
I'm like that I've always been aware of.
47:37
I'm like I really just wish I could have a relationship like I do with my friends cuz they're not so flipped out all the time. definitely. deal. Like We just deal. Yeah.
47:48
I'm so glad you asked me that.
47:48
Thank you for opening up so much, but I was wondering that Well, cuz I knew that you had probably also believed that this was not going to be available to you in life and that is the place I've been in for the last 7 years. Yeah.
48:01
But mine was elective and yours was elective. Yes, absolutely.
48:05
So I was like who better to ask this question to Yeah.
48:08
than someone who had purposefully shut themselves off to this in service of, you know, for you it was your spirituality, your religion, for me it was for my kids. Yes.
48:21
But again, I'm not codependent on them.
48:24
Like I'm so aware of like how much that would screw everything up. Them, me, all of it.
48:29
But they do inspire me to be my best self. No one's come along. No romantic partner. No one ever.
48:36
My friends are the closest second. Mhm.
48:41
But they are the people that have come into my life that have truly encouraged, forced, and inspired the greatest change I've done in my life. Yes.
48:51
And I think when it's elective and it's not suppressed or repressed or it's not done demanded demanded.
48:57
When it's done in that way it can be really, really powerful because you get to It's almost like if everyone had a period of their life I mean I I often ask this question to people that I work with or clients that I coach and it's that I mean I started dating when I was 14 probably. Like dating.
49:14
I don't know how old you were when you started dating.
49:16
My first boyfriend was when I was like in the third or fourth grade. Wow.
49:23
Um and he was my first kiss.
49:25
No one would have dated me in the third or fourth grade. but that was it. Like it ended there. It was it. It was very puppy love.
49:29
It was very sweet and it was very innocent. Yeah.
49:34
So I probably had my proper first girlfriend when I was 14.
49:35
And I often ask people like between your first girlfriend to where you are now or your first boyfriend or whatever maybe till now like how many days have you spent single?
49:44
And for most people that answer isn't very long.
49:46
Like I know people who could say three weeks, maybe six months, maybe nine months.
49:52
Like when you look at our life and you start realizing that we haven't really spent much time having the opportunity to seek and experience all the other types of love because we've been chasing this one type of love to fulfill all of our needs. But It's so interesting.
50:09
you asked me that question, genuinely.
50:11
Well, and I really am like I'm like I haven't prioritized myself.
50:14
What if I actually made myself my partner. Absolutely.
50:21
Like what if I invested in myself what I've invested in so many other people Yes.
50:28
in the form of these big, beautiful chapter, adventurous, great romantic adventures that I've had.
50:32
One of which led to the the greatest meaning of my life, my kids.
50:38
And I even feel weird saying my cuz they're their own people, but our kids. Yeah.
50:43
Um and it's been really great to prioritize myself and say "You know what?
50:49
You have a lot of work to do.
50:56
Uh you got to figure out how to be a parent.
50:57
You've got to figure out how to raise your like inner child that like you know, did a lot of work back then, but there's some adult perspective you didn't have, so there's new work that needs to be done.
51:12
You need to work on, you know, maybe you've done the same thing over and over in your life like occupationally speaking.
51:19
Like is there other stuff out there or are you happy just doing things over and over again the same way?
51:25
Maybe you are, but like give yourself the chance to explore that. Yeah.
51:31
Um and I've had such big life changes and I've been there to support myself rather than again outward towards somebody else.
51:39
I'm really a caretaker and we all imprint.
51:42
So much of what we're we're with becomes a very 50/50 thing in a relationship, which is a beautiful gift, but you are taking in a lot of someone else's perspective and needs and stuff, and this has been such a great time for me, and something I said to my fellow uh co-worker here, Jen, um earlier today, we were something about some great guy came up, and um she was like, "Oh, where are all those great guys?"
52:13
And she's such a marvelous woman, and she's so rad and so awesome, and I'm like, "You know what, Striker?
52:20
Not only are you obviously going to find someone or some people, maybe it's one, maybe it's chapters."
52:28
I said, "But you know what?
52:31
I'm going to be so mad at you, and you're going to be so mad at yourself if you waste this time because it's coming. He's coming.
52:41
And you're not going to get this time back.
52:43
So, I always notice too when I ask people in the audience, "How many of you guys are married?"
52:50
People raise their hands, and when I say, "How many of you are single?" They all whoop. It's like, "Woo!"
52:57
And there's like there is a celebratory pride that comes with being single, and I hope people hold this dearly that these things, for better or worse, don't last. Yeah.
53:11
And so, instead of like boo-hooing through this time, love it, like it, cuz one day it might be gone, and you'll romanticize looking back how great it was to be in a relationship with yourself. Absolutely. True, I love that.
53:26
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
53:27
That's what you should have said. It was brilliant.
53:30
I'd love to do a TED Talk.
53:31
Yeah, well, I mean, you need to on this on this exact topic.
53:33
I think it's unbelievable.
53:34
I have one last question for you.
53:37
You said at the beginning of our interview, you said that when you were a kid and you were observing people in the industry, I was saying observing you and then you started talking about observing others.
53:46
You said I was always looking at people and trying to make sense of who I wanted to be. Yes.
53:50
Today, who do you want to be?
53:53
Who is it that you look or not even who as a person, but who do you want to be?
53:58
The values, the characteristics, the qualities, the inner that you were speaking about.
54:01
What are those things that you aspire for today?
54:02
We heard a story about this couple.
54:05
We have a section on our show called Drew's News.
54:11
We had pulled up a story about the couple who was in a 100 years of age.
54:17
I think they've been married for, I don't know, 80-something years.
54:23
And they said when they were asked like, "Can you give a wisdom?"
54:27
And their wisdom was, "When you are getting in a row or a fight or something, like take a time out."
54:37
They're today who inspires me because again, it does not have to be of the romantic kind, but when you see yourself rising, when that blood starts to boil, when you start to like clench and freak and get spun out, instead of spewing that reaction and like Linda Blair Exorcist all over the room, I will have such regret for any type of moment that I have like that.
55:05
And I I want to become the master of the person who knows how to excuse themselves. Walk away. Take a deep breath.
55:15
I have breathe written on my wrist in tattoo and I still forget to look at it.
55:21
Like after one rich deep breath, after one removal of yourself in a situation, after one time out, after one walk away, you are not going to come back usually as spun out. Mhm.
55:37
So, I think that for me is probably like the goal de jure in my life right now is like behavior mastery.
55:51
And funny enough, as far as the people I follow, it's the same people for the last 30 years.
55:57
It's Nan and Chris and Peter and Brian and Steve.
56:01
It's like Cameron and my oldest friend Mel, we celebrate 40 years this year. Wow.
56:07
I I stick with people because I'm still trying to become like them.
56:16
But we have a hell of a good time like along the way.
56:18
But I just have been love with people who I think, "God darn it. Yeah.
56:24
When I get to be like you, when I can learn to react like you, when I can live the way I see you living."
56:29
Because they're not not fun.
56:32
They're not not funny and spontaneous and cool and interesting and have a wild side.
56:38
Like you don't have to be boring. No, definitely not.
56:44
But I think when you're a kid, at least I did, I thought you probably were if you were an almighty person, you were probably a crashing bore.
56:54
So, I wanted to hang out with all like the ruckus.
56:55
Like I wanted to be in the rumpus room with all the like kookadoodles just like me.
56:59
But everyone I admire, they're just like really cool people, too.
57:05
They're fun and loving and and interesting and humorous.
57:08
So, it turns out all the people you admire don't have to be boring, they can be everything you want to be. All that true.
57:16
Thank you so much for this I love you so much. you, too.
57:20
This is one of the most beautiful human exchanges that I've had.
57:25
It was such a special special memory because of you.
57:27
It is but it's I don't know, it's different when you open up and you share your vulnerabilities.
57:29
It is but it's I don't know, it's different when you open up and you share your vulnerabilities.
57:31
It is but it's I don't know, it's different when you open up and you share your vulnerabilities.
57:33
It different when you really get to hear from the heart and speak from the heart.
57:37
going to say it feels so open-hearted. Yeah.
57:39
Like you and I just like you know, my dad used to say about like the body, it's just Tupperware, man. It's just Tupperware. That's good. And it's like it's true.
57:50
It's like when do you sit down and sort of like unzip your chest and like reveal your organs and your heart and like for all those people who pay attention to the gut. Yeah. The gut Oh, for sure.
58:06
and Barry even says like so many ancient wisdoms Yes.
58:10
are really about the gut.
58:13
Absolutely, it's all about the gut.
58:13
The health, the insight, the the instinct, you know, the truth, The truth. the alarm bells. Yeah. Like God, pay attention.
58:22
One thing as a mom I've really hooked into in the last like year is telling my girls I would want you to pay attention to what feels good or makes you feel good. That's fantastic. Let's go with that.
58:36
But I want you to be as equally heightenedly aware of what doesn't make you feel good. Absolutely. And let's explore that. I love that. Yeah, it's so needed. It's so needed.
58:43
I'm so glad you raised that about the gut.
58:45
It's so easily missed and I think we're just getting there now. Well, it's not sexy. yeah, exactly. and the head is poetry. yeah, HH gut, yeah.
58:52
It's like no alliteration, yeah.
58:55
that cuz that's your little compass inside your body. I love it.
58:57
If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Meghan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.