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Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs.
5:05
This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to a very special episode of The Tim Ferriss Show.
5:10
I have wanted to interview this incredible guest since day one of this podcast, somewhere between six and eight years ago.
5:18
And she is a living legend, Dr. Jane Goodall.
5:21
She was born on April 3rd, 1934, in London, England.
5:24
At the young age of 26, she followed her passion for animals in Africa to Gombe, Tanzania, where she began her landmark study of chimpanzees in the wild, immersing herself, like no one had before, in their habitat as a neighbor rather than a distant observer.
5:40
Her discovery in 1960 that chimpanzees not only use, but make tools rocked the scientific world and redefine the relationship between humans and animals.
5:51
In 1977, she established the Jane Goodall Institute, JGI, to advance her work around the world and for generations to come.
5:57
JGI continues the field research at Gombe and builds on Dr.
6:01
Goodall's innovative approach to conservation, which recognizes the central role that people play in the well-being of animals and the environment.
6:08
In 1991, she founded Roots & Shoots, a global program that empowers young people in nearly 60 countries, and since its inception in 1991 has greatly impacted youth in more than 100 countries to act as the informed conservation leaders that the world so urgently needs. Today, Dr.
6:26
Goodall travels around the world, normally 300-plus days a year, although certainly quarantine changes that, speaking about the threats facing chimpanzees, environmental crises, and her reasons for hope.
6:37
And we do talk quite a lot about our current situation, and I spoke to her from her childhood home in England.
6:45
In her books and speeches, she emphasizes the interconnectedness of all living things and the collective power of individual action. Dr.
6:52
Goodall is a UN Messenger of Peace and Dame Commander of the British Empire.
6:58
If that is not one of the coolest titles you've ever heard, I don't know what is. The next chapter of Dr.
7:05
Goodall's life's work unfolds in a brand new documentary, and I highly, highly recommend watching it, Jane Goodall: The Hope, premiering on Earth Day, April 22nd.
7:14
That's this April 22nd at 9:00 Eastern, 8:00 Central on Nat Geo, Nat Geo Wild, and Nat Geo Mundo.
7:22
The 2-hour special takes viewers through the chapters of her amazing journey in the 60 years since her groundbreaking discoveries in Gombe researching wild chimpanzees, including her activism, creation of her nonprofit organization, the Jane Goodall Institute, as I mentioned earlier, JGI, and Roots & Shoots, the youth program, which you can find out more about at rootsandshoots. org.
7:43
Along with her current efforts to inspire the next generation. Dr.
7:46
Goodall's work through the Jane Goodall Institute is advanced through the generous support of their donor family, people like you and me, in other words.
7:52
To show your support, visit janegoodall. org/tim.
7:57
You can find her on social on all social platforms at janegoodallinst as an institute at janegoodallinst i n s t and you can find out more about her youth program and visit them on social on all social platforms at rootsandshoots.
8:11
And without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation that I so thoroughly enjoyed myself with Dr. Jane Goodall. Dr.
8:27
Goodall, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.
8:31
I'm thrilled to finally connect.
8:31
I I don't use the word hero much, but you've certainly been a hero and an idol to me for many decades.
8:39
In a previous lifetime, I wanted to be a marine biologist and I am also very lucky in a sense that I have you in one place because your team has told me that you travel and have traveled 300-plus days a year for the last several decades, but my understanding now is that you are in Bournemouth and I thought we would start perhaps close to the beginning and this certainly takes place in England.
9:11
Just as context from your childhood, I understand that you grew up during wartime and I would love to hear you describe what that experience was like.
9:21
Well, you know, I'm really glad I grew up at that time because although it was shocking, I mean, we were in Bournemouth but some bombs were dropped here.
9:30
The um German fighters used to dump their bombs near the coast if they hadn't managed to hit the target and we're sort of in the middle.
9:40
So, we heard the bombs falling.
9:43
We had sirens, air raid warnings.
9:43
We had to go into an air raid shelter which was a little tiny cage, really.
9:48
Supposed to be keeping people safe.
9:52
So, families with children were issued them.
9:54
And people were killed and damaged and we never knew where the bombs would fall in London.
10:01
My uncle was a surgeon so he'd come back every other weekend with shocking tales of of what had been happening.
10:08
But, the reason I say I was glad I grew up then is because I learned to take nothing for granted.
10:14
One square of chocolate was a huge treat.
10:17
Food was rationed, clothes were rationed.
10:23
We had very little money. There was no television.
10:25
The only television were the newsreels.
10:28
That was just about the war.
10:31
And so, books became very very important.
10:33
And I still got my childhood books.
10:36
They're here with me in the room as I speak to you.
10:40
And so, we luckily had this garden.
10:40
It's my grandmother's house.
10:44
And I spent lots and lots of time out there with my dog.
10:50
So, the really shocking part was hearing about the Holocaust and seeing photographs of the skeletons of the Jews when the camps were opened up.
11:00
I mean, skeletons of living people.
11:05
And that really, you know, it it changed everything and I started thinking age 10 about good and evil.
11:14
So, that was my growing up in the war.
11:17
As you were growing up, I I read a number of stories that seemed to in a sense foreshadow much of what would come later.
11:27
But, I read stories of your mother finding you observing earthworms in your bed.
11:32
I read of stories of you hiding and waiting for more than 4 hours to see a hen laying an egg, and the police almost being called because you were missing.
11:42
Is is that comfort with patience and uh on some level isolation uh something that you developed yourself?
11:53
Is that something you've observed in other family members?
11:58
Uh I'd love to hear you comment on that if you could. Mhm. It was just me.
12:01
I mean, all the family, you know, loved animals, but they didn't observe them or watch them or I didn't have any uh any example at all.
12:12
I was just born that way.
12:15
And the luck was having such a supportive mother.
12:18
I mean, earthworms in my bed, imagine all the earth and the muck.
12:22
And lots of mothers would have been horrified and and thrown them out of the window, but she just very quietly said, "You know, they'll die here."
12:28
And we took them in the garden.
12:31
And then the hen house story, it's one I tell a lot because we went to stay on a farm in the country.
12:40
And I was given the job of collecting hens' eggs.
12:43
And it was a proper farm.
12:45
There were no animals cooped up in tiny prison-like quarters and constant animal concentration camps.
12:53
Um they were free roaming in the field and the hens in the and the farm yard.
12:59
But they laid their eggs in these little hen houses.
13:01
And apparently I began asking everybody, "But where does the egg come out?" Nobody told me.
13:08
I distinctly remember seeing this hen go into a hen house, and I crawled after her.
13:13
And with squawks of fear, she flew out.
13:16
I can still feel her wings hitting my face.
13:18
And I must have thought in that little 4 and 1/2-year-old brain, "Well, no hen will lay an egg here. It's a dangerous place." So, I waited. That was the time.
13:28
I waited and waited in this empty hen house. But, I was rewarded.
13:33
The hen came in and I didn't know the family'd been worried.
13:36
I was rushing towards the house and there was mom.
13:38
She can imagine how worried she was having nearly called the police.
13:44
But, instead of "How dare you go off?
13:46
Don't you dare do that again."
13:48
which would have killed the magic, she sat down to hear this amazing story.
13:52
And the reason I love it is there's the making of a little scientist, curiosity, asking questions, not getting the right answer, deciding to find out for yourself, making a mistake, not giving up, and learning patience.
14:07
A different kind of mother might have crushed that early scientific curiosity and I might not have done what I've done.
14:16
And it seemed to really cultivate your not just ability, but perseverance with observation.
14:24
And in watching footage of you, and we'll we'll certainly get to Africa and other experiences in your biography, that you have or appear to have many sensitivities.
14:37
And uh I could be off base with that, but I want to ask you a bit more about your mother because in reading a New York Times profile from uh I suppose about a year ago, there was a one paragraph that caught my eye and it was related to your childhood during wartime and related to your father's brother Rex, who had joined the Air Force and was killed.
15:01
And the sentence that caught my eye was "One day we were in Bournemouth in the evening and suddenly she, your mother, screamed Rex and started sobbing hysterically and it was the very moment he was shot down over Egypt."
15:11
So, just for clarity, is that to say that she somehow intuited that he had been shot down before receiving news? Oh, absolutely.
15:21
I mean, no, we didn't know for quite some time.
15:23
for quite some time. And there were other occasions, like we were walking on the beach, and normally we had to go up to our little guest house the quickest way, but on this occasion Mom decided to take the long way, which
15:37
she never did cuz she had a weak heart, but she took us the long way, and I still remember looking up at the blue blue sky and seeing an airplane quite high and seeing two black things that looked like cigars coming out on each side, and Mom threw me and my sister to the ground. I can still hear the
15:55
I can still hear the terrible explosion, and one of those bombs fell right on the path where we would surely have been if we'd gone the short way, the normal way.
16:08
Have Have you experienced any of that for lack of a better word, intuition in your own life in the field or elsewhere?
16:19
Or is that something that was unique to your mother?
16:21
It was pretty unique to her, but you know, I experienced very vividly the presence of my second husband after he died.
16:31
And it ties in with what other people have seen and felt.
16:35
So, in other words, we're going into a sort of different realm here.
16:40
But you know, I don't know what people believe.
16:44
And um I'm not quite sure what it all means myself.
16:48
But it's a peop- People have been asking me, "What's your next big adventure?"
16:53
And I always say dying because, you know, when we die, there's either nothing, which is fine, or there's something.
16:59
And if there's something, what an adventure to find out.
17:05
You've had You have had more adventures than most, and and I suppose this is a good time for those who certainly recognize your name.
17:13
I think almost everyone will recognize your name, and they'll know that you're considered to be one of the world's foremost experts on chimpanzees, but beyond that I think many people don't know about the early chapters and I'd like to segue to that because it opens up a number of doors that we can explore.
17:31
Let's flash back if we could to March 1957 and I believe your passport is missing.
17:38
Can you explain what has happened?
17:41
Well, we'd done a last minute shopping and of course in those days there weren't planes going back and forth.
17:47
That's how long I've lived and it was by boat.
17:51
And we were actually in a on a I suppose a train, a bus or something.
17:54
I can't remember the details.
17:58
And suddenly I found I didn't have my passport and I remembered we'd been shopping in Peter Jones and so mom rang up the shop said they'd found it.
18:07
We found somebody to go and collect it who rushed to the dock.
18:12
Otherwise I couldn't sailed and all my money would have been wasted. So, what a drama. What a way to start.
18:22
And that money just just for those who aren't familiar, I mean that was painstakingly gathered over uh a rather long period of time with various jobs, was it not?
18:32
It's not like you had this in a bank account just waiting to be used for whatever purpose for a long period of time.
18:39
When I left school there was no money for university and I had to have a job.
18:43
You know, we had very little money.
18:45
So I first of all did a secretarial course which was boring, but I got my diploma. I got a job.
18:50
Then came the letter from a school friend inviting me to Kenya.
18:57
So you couldn't save money in London.
18:57
So I went home and got a job as a waitress in a hotel around the corner.
19:03
Very hard work in those days.
19:07
Families coming to spend a week by the seaside and you had to look after them for whole week if you wanted any sign and the tips were small, but I made sure they all knew I was saving up for Africa.
19:19
So, that's how I got the money.
19:21
I would love just to spend a moment, and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but uh discussing Louis Leakey and uh I've I've read various accounts of how you connected with him, but I'd like to to hear it directly from you and uh and perhaps you could describe what it was that he saw in you, but that initial contact is and how that came to be is is of of great interest to me.
19:46
So, if you could speak to that, I would appreciate it.
19:51
Okay, well, I'd been staying with my friend for about, I suppose, couple of months.
19:58
And somebody said to me at a party, "If you're interested in animals, you really should meet Louis Leakey."
20:05
Uh he was curator at that time of the Natural History Museum, but of course, he's best known as a a very eminent paleontologist.
20:13
He'd spent his life uh with his second wife, Mary Leakey, searching for the fossils of Stone Age ancestors across Africa.
20:25
And so, I I was very shy back then, but I rang the museum and said I'd love to make an appointment to meet Dr. Leakey.
20:34
And a voice said, "I'm Leakey, what do you want?" immediately.
20:37
But anyway, you know, I was so passionate about animals.
20:39
I Anyway, went to see him, and he took me all around.
20:44
He asked me many questions about the stuffed animals that were there.
20:50
And I think he was impressed that because I'd read everything I could about Africa, um I could answer so many of his questions.
20:58
Well, I mentioned earlier that boring secretarial course that I did.
21:04
Two days before I met Leakey, his secretary had suddenly quit.
21:07
He needed a secretary and there I was.
21:10
I mean, you never know in this life.
21:12
So, I'm suddenly surrounded by people who can answer all my questions about the mammals and the birds and the reptiles, the amphibians, the insects, the plants. It was heaven.
21:25
Oh, you asked Leakey's what did he see in me? Yeah.
21:30
He had a feeling that women made better observers.
21:32
He thought they were more patient.
21:35
He also wanted somebody to go and study chimpanzees because of his interest in human evolution.
21:42
So, the fossils of early man that he was uncovering, you can tell a lot from a fossil about whether the creature walked upright, the muscle attachments, the wear of the tooth shows you roughly the kind of diet, but behavior doesn't fossilize.
22:01
So, he reckoned there was a ape-like human-like common ancestor about 6 million years ago.
22:06
It's now generally accepted.
22:09
And that he thought, "Well, if Jane finds behavior in chimps and humans today that is similar or the same, maybe it came directly from the common ancestor and has been with us through our long separate evolutionary journeys, in which case he could have a better way of imagining how his early humans used to behave."
22:34
So, he wanted a mind uncluttered by the reductionist thinking of the animal behavior people at the time.
22:43
It was a very new science.
22:43
They were anxious to make it a hard science, which it shouldn't be.
22:49
And so, the fact I hadn't been to college was a plus and the fact that I was a woman was a plus.
22:53
So, I was just hugely lucky.
22:55
Well, he he seems to have picked the winning lottery ticket or at least a a very formidable combination of traits.
23:05
And if we take that mention of patience, or his belief that in part women make better observers because of more patience.
23:13
If we flash forward then to you landing in Gombe Stream National Park, Tanzania, if I'm getting the pronunciation correct.
23:22
I was watching the first Nat Geo, maybe not the first, but the the one of the more recent Nat Geo documentaries about you titled Jane.
23:34
And in that, and also in your writing, I believe it took something like 5 months of constant effort and having chimpanzees flee from your presence to finally be what we might call accepted.
23:52
And I've I've two questions related to that.
23:54
The first is what do you think made the difference?
23:58
Why did they go from fleeing to accepting?
24:02
And second is when you first really had the opportunity to look deeply into a chimpanzee's eyes, what did you what did you see, and just as importantly, what did you feel? All right.
24:13
Well, the acceptance in the in the movie it sort of looked as though they suddenly accepted me, and it wasn't like that. It was very gradual.
24:24
And it was partly thanks to this one male who began to lose his fear much ahead of the others.
24:30
I called him David Greybeard cuz he had a lovely white beard.
24:34
And because he began to let me get closer and closer, I think if I came to a group in the forest and he was with that group, cuz they they separate into, you know, separate small groups and sometimes alone, but if he was there, then the others were ready to run, but he was sitting calmly.
24:54
And I suppose that made them feel, well, she can't be so dangerous after all.
24:59
So, gradually I could get closer.
25:03
And the first time I came close to a group that didn't run away, I think was one of the proudest moments of my life.
25:10
You know, I had made it just in time before the 6 months money ran out.
25:15
And uh so the the fact that I'd seen David Greybeard use and make tools to fish for termites thought to be something only humans were capable of.
25:27
That's what brought the Geographic in my tutor the beginning 6 months after the study began and they agreed to go on funding it.
25:34
Was David Greybeard the first chimpanzee that you were able to get close enough to to sort of connect eye to eye with? Yes, definitely.
25:47
What did you see and feel when you had that opportunity?
25:52
Well, I saw that I was looking to the eyes of a thinking, feeling being.
25:58
And it it was not so surprising as you might think because I'd always felt that animals were thinking, feeling beings.
26:08
But with a chimpanzee, they're so like us behaviorally and biologically that it's it's almost it's not like looking at another human.
26:21
It's different and I can't explain how it's different.
26:24
But it was a very magical moment because he looked back. That was the thing. He didn't run.
26:31
He just sat there and looked back at me.
26:35
I would love to uh ask questions about what we might learn and what perhaps you've learned about human nature or even questions that have been raised in your interactions and observations of chimpanzees.
26:50
And you mentioned it briefly, but it's hard to overstate just how incredible and shocking and world-shattering for many people it was that you observed chimpanzees not just using tools but constructing tools for in this case consuming termites.
27:12
I mean it may it made news around the world.
27:16
You had many other observations.
27:16
You had many other observations. I believe also that you know the belief that chimpanzees were purely vegetarians also you observed not to be the case with their their consumption of other primates exactly and I you noted and I know this was a real in some eyes a faux pas at the time real personalities and you might have been
27:41
accused of anthropomorphism and all these things but you observed different personalities in different chimpanzees and I thought perhaps we could just start with a story and that is the story of Old Man and Mike Kusano if I'm getting the pronunciation right and then I have questions about a few other chimpanzees you personally had a quite a bit of interaction with. Okay,
28:05
Okay, well Mike Kusano and Old Man this was on an island in Lion Country Safari in Florida.
28:18
And Old Man had been in a medical research lab.
28:22
He'd been captured from the wild his mother was shot.
28:27
And he was called Old Man because an infant chimp who's distressed and frightened they have wrinkled faces and they huddle and they they do look very old.
28:36
And he was lucky he was about 12 and for some reason he was no no more use to the lab and he was put on an island with three females.
28:47
Two of them for medical research, one from a circus.
28:51
And Mark Cusano was employed to look after them.
28:55
And he was told, "Don't go anywhere near them. They're vicious. They hate people.
28:59
They're much stronger than you. They'll kill you."
29:02
So, he threw food from his little paddle boat onto the island. And began watching them. And a baby was born.
29:10
So, Old Man was the father.
29:12
And he felt you know, these are such amazing beings.
29:15
I must have some kind of relationship with them if I'm to look after them.
29:19
So, he began going closer and closer.
29:22
And one day, he held out a banana in his hand.
29:26
And when when Old Man took it, he said, "I know how you felt when David took a banana from you."
29:33
One day, he went onto the island.
29:33
One day, he groomed Old Man.
29:36
One day, they they played. And Old Man laughed.
29:43
And they became basically It was a friendship.
29:46
And then, one day, Mark slipped. It'd been raining. Fell flat on his face.
29:52
Unfortunately, frightened this infant, who was the love of Old Man's life.
29:58
Old Man used to protect him and carry him and share food.
30:04
Well, the mother, hearing her child scream, raced and attacked Mark, biting into his neck.
30:09
The other two females, to support her, ran in. One bit his wrist. One bit his leg.
30:16
And Mark thought, "Well, how on earth am I going to get away from them?
30:18
Cuz they're much stronger than us." He looked up.
30:22
He saw Old Man thundering across the island with a furious scowl on his face.
30:26
And he thought his time had come to die.
30:29
Old Man to protect his precious infant.
30:31
But what Old Man did was to pull those three screaming rather females off Mark and kick them away while dragged himself to safety.
30:44
And I met Mark when he came out of hospital. He said, "No question. Old man saved my life."
30:49
And so, you know, I always think if a chimpanzee who's been abused by people can reach out to help a human friend in time of need, then surely we with our greater capacity for compassion can do the same to the chimpanzees in their time of need.
31:06
Thank you for telling that story, and it's I think a useful and um beautiful segue into a discussion of some of the other things that you observed.
31:18
And in this case, we see compassion on the part of Old Man.
31:23
And then uh perhaps on the other hand, you've also observed quite a lot of aggression and violence uh within chimpanzee communities.
31:32
Uh I the I think it was 1974 to '78 Gombe chimpanzee war.
31:40
I saw footage of I think it was the southern troop being annihilated, or at least the um the dead bodies of those chimps.
31:46
I I believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that in some cases dominant females will deliberately kill the young of other females to maintain dominance.
31:58
I Observing that in chimpanzees, but also observing the compassion as you have, what has that led you to um believe or infer about human nature? Well, it's interesting.
32:13
When I began talking about that aggression, many scientists told me I should play that down because it might indicate that aggression in humans was um inherited from our past ancestors, which for me was very clearly the case.
32:33
And I thought, "Well, I'm not going to be bullied.
32:35
I never have been by scientific opinion.
32:39
So, I continued to talk about it.
32:39
And it was a time, you wouldn't remember, it was 1977, I think, and it was a time when whether aggression is innate, uh inborn or acquired, learned, was a was a huge controversy.
32:56
And that's when I first really talked about it to a scientific community.
33:01
Um and I I don't know, I mean, it seems obvious to me that we've inherited from our common ancestor traits of aggression and also traits of compassion and empathy.
33:15
To what extent, if we take an example from your personal experience, and and I I know very little about Frodo, but Frodo seems to have been amongst the chimpanzees you had exposure to, one of the more aggressive.
33:36
Uh but I'd love to hear you speak to this, and how would you explain the variance among chimpanzees?
33:42
Was it also in appear to be innate?
33:45
Did Did it seem to stem from some type of trauma?
33:48
How did you think about that, and perhaps Frodo specifically?
33:52
Well, um they're all different.
33:55
Some are much more aggressive than others, just like we are.
33:59
Uh and Frodo was spoiled. He was a spoiled brat.
34:02
His um mother was the highest-ranking female at the time, Fifi.
34:08
He had two He had one older brother who always came to his defense, as did Fifi.
34:18
And so, he always got his own way.
34:21
And he was he was a real bully.
34:22
So, if there were two young ones playing, same age as him, perhaps, and he came to join them, they would stop playing immediately because they knew if he entered the game, he'd suddenly become rough and cause one of them to be hurt.
34:39
So, it it wasn't just humans, field assistants, and specially me that he targeted with his um displays, hitting over, dragging. I I got it worst of all.
34:50
I was stamped upon and but he was not trying really to hurt me.
34:56
He was trying to assert his dominance.
34:59
And I guess they don't realize quite how strong they are.
35:03
I mean, if he wanted to kill me, I wouldn't be speaking to you now, that's for sure.
35:06
Is is the assertion of dominance does it it's and I don't know how much of this is conscious and I don't know how one would even know, but is is that is that a a conscious or potentially conscious political maneuver to to get better access to resources and so on or is it really just a conditioned behavior based on as you said being being spoiled and that just being some type of of primitive drive that they have and perhaps even we have?
35:43
No, because um Frodo's brother before him became the top ranking male and Freud had a very different character. He was reflective.
35:51
Um he became dominant not through aggression, but through being smart.
35:56
Some of the males get to the top by sheer aggression, by bullying, by swaggering about, waving their arms.
36:04
They remind me so much of some human politicians. It's not true.
36:09
But um there are other males who get to the top by skillfully forming alliances and they only tackle a higher ranking male when their ally is there to support them.
36:21
And then there are some who just persist.
36:23
They persist in charging towards groups of superior males who are grooming each other, startling them so that they run away.
36:32
And in the end this was Goblin.
36:32
In the end, I think the other males thought, "Well, he's just going to go on doing this.
36:38
All right, let's just let him get to the top. We don't care anymore." That's how it seemed.
36:42
And he reigned for 10 years, and he was small, and he wasn't very aggressive at all. Mhm.
36:50
You are uh I think for many people a messenger of hope.
36:56
And I personally swing quite often, more often than I would like, between having faith in humankind, human nature, and feeling as though we are perhaps hardcoded, or through DNA, destined to at times revert to our lesser selves, lowest selves, most aggressive, selfish selves.
37:26
Uh how have you formed your own thinking, or I should say what is what is your thinking about human nature and where it has led us, and how that relates to perhaps poor decisions and good decisions that we've made that have landed us where we are?
37:40
Certainly you're in uh your childhood home, uh spending more time in England now than you have in decades.
37:48
I'm also in in lockdown, but how after your many decades of observation of not just chimpanzees, but humans, where do where do you currently stand on thinking about human nature?
37:59
Well, I find, sadly, that there are some people who really cast a very bad light on human beings if we look down from another planet.
38:16
And that's I mean, you know, as I told you earlier, I was so shocked about the Holocaust, and that's what made me think about human evil.
38:26
And the way we differ from the chimps is that chimps can be aggressive and chimps can kill, but it's on the it's something that's roused in them.
38:34
It's a a strong emotion, and they just display an attack.
38:40
But human beings can sit and think and plan deliberate torture, mental and physical, in cold blood.
38:49
And that I think is where we differ, and it changes from aggression to evil. And it's a dichotomy.
38:56
I mean, some people are saintly and patient and do good, and other people uh are are the opposite.
39:05
And unfortunately today, we have many presidents and prime ministers who seem to be more concerned for their own advancement, their own careers, their own power, um their own acquisition of wealth, than for the good of the people who elected them.
39:25
So, we're both, and it's going to be a a race, isn't it, as to which side will win?
39:31
And if the if the greedy materialism of the capitalist materialistic world wins, then we're doomed.
39:42
And this is why I spend so much of my time trying to grow our program for young people, because I would say almost none of the young people who've been through this program, which began in '91, and is now in six countries, and is kindergarten through university, and I don't I don't know of more than two who've strayed from the path of having good values, respect for nature, respect for each other.
40:14
So, I want to grow more and more of these young people because they're the future and we've been stealing their future for decades.
40:22
And this is the Roots & Shoots youth program that you're referring to? Yes. rootsandshoots.
40:26
org I'll also put that in the show notes for everyone, of course.
40:32
Let's let's talk a little bit more about that and as it relates to youth program, the the cultivation of minds that are inclined to bend towards the light instead of the darkness or towards good instead of evil.
40:49
I know these are very strong words, but let's use them for now.
40:53
If we're looking at the the current situation as it relates to SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19 and so on.
41:02
Uh could you speak to what got us into this fix and I mean I'm thinking of course of the the wildlife trade, its effects on human health and so on.
41:12
Doesn't need to be specific to that, but uh how we got here, how we contributed to it and then also if if you're teaching youth, how you would how you would educate them so that they don't make the same mistakes.
41:29
Okay, well sort of asked three questions there. I did I did.
41:32
It's a it's a bit of a sloppy question. Sorry about that.
41:34
Let's let's start with the um COVID-19 because that's on everybody's minds right now.
41:43
And the shocking thing is it's been predicted by science for decades, just like climate change has been predicted.
41:52
And I only wish that somehow there'd been lockdown about climate change the way that there's been lockdown over this um over the spread of this virus because you know, we we we have known for all this time that because we are destroying the environment of some of these animals.
42:12
They're spending They're having to spend more time in contact with each other because they've got less habitat.
42:20
And also more time in contact with humans.
42:25
And sometimes that's that involves crop raiding, but there's also people penetrating deeper and hunting.
42:30
And then of course selling the meat in the African markets, bush meat, and then selling meat across Asia in these terrible what they're known as wet markets.
42:42
Um and also selling animals for medication, for pets.
42:47
All of this bringing us in close contact.
42:49
So that theory seems to be that there's a a virus in a wild animal and because of this closer contact of between animals, it jumps into another animal and that's when in these very bad conditions, including factory farms by the way, the virus can then jump into a human.
43:12
If there is a similar kind of virus with which this new one can bind.
43:17
And that leads to a new uh a new form which as as is the case with with uh COVID-19 can be rather devastating.
43:28
But just think if we if we treated climate change like this all those years ago when we were warned about it, um we might not be in this state we're in now.
43:42
So basically what I'm saying is our leaders have not listened to science.
43:46
The big corporations have not listened to science.
43:49
And hundreds of people now we're in this materialistic, money-grabbing age, you know, just want to carry on with business as usual.
43:58
They don't want to think about not eating all the meat they want or not um favoring the destruction of a piece of habitat to build yet another shopping mall.
44:11
So, you know, that's that's what this virus is teaching us.
44:17
And will we learn from it?
44:17
We didn't seem to learn from SARS.
44:21
The markets where live animals were banned for a while, but then it started up again.
44:27
China is now talking about making it permanent, but they're still allowing animals, wild animals, to be sold for medicine.
44:35
So, that's a tremendous loophole.
44:37
Luckily, people in China want to close that loophole, too.
44:40
And if you have a classroom, and as you do now with social media, I mean, you you are arguably reaching more people now virtually than you might in travel speaking to live audiences.
44:56
But let's just say you had a classroom of 10,000 children or adolescents youth who were hanging on your every word, what are the these sort of principles or truths that you would infuse in your lessons to them that could possibly help avoid some of these problems that we've we've created or types of thinking.
45:20
What would the What would the curriculum look like?
45:24
Well, first of all, let me just say that Roots & Shoots, which began in 1991 with 12 high school students in Dar es Salaam, in Tanzania, uh, we decided at a meeting cuz they were worried about, you know, poaching in the parks and illegal dynamite fishing and street children and cruel treatment of animals in the market.
45:47
I mean, they they were concerned about all kinds of different things.
45:52
So, we decided that the main message of this new program that we wanted to start together would be that every single individual matters, has a role to play and makes a difference every single day with a choice as to what kind of difference to make.
46:09
Right from the beginning because I learned about the interconnection of things in the rain forest, how every species matters and has a role to play, we decided that every group formed would choose between them three projects, one to help people, one to help animals, one to help the environment, and they would share their projects with each other.
46:32
And so we began listening to them.
46:34
What did they feel mattered? How could we help them?
46:40
And when you when young people understand the problems and we empower them to take action and listen to their voices, it's quite extraordinary.
46:48
I mean, the my main reason for hope is traveling around the world as I have been.
46:53
I've met so many young people.
46:56
They've been part of Roots & Shoots or similar groups, shining eyes wanting to tell Dr.
47:04
Jane what they've been doing to make this a better world.
47:06
And because they can choose, they they they're passionate and they sit down together and they discuss it. It's very democratic.
47:16
They discuss uh what what they can do between them.
47:22
Um they sometimes ask for help, maybe a parent, maybe a teacher.
47:27
Uh and then they roll up their sleeves and take action, whether it's restoring a wetland, whether it's installing rubbish bins or organic gardens in the schools, whether it's saving up money to help earthquake victims.
47:44
And because we put them in touch with each other, face-to-face when possible, but virtually, which is wonderful, they are inspiring each other.
47:55
Yes, we do have some curricula because some countries want it.
47:58
UK wanted a curricula, so we're in 100 and 1,000 700 schools now.
48:07
And some of the African countries want curricula.
48:11
Um sometimes it's just you know, so yes, I do have messages for them.
48:14
And I do talk to them about the role that they can play, about the importance of thinking about the consequences of the little choices you make each day.
48:28
How people may look different, sound different, have a different language, a different color of skin, but if they fall and bleed, the blood is the same.
48:37
If they weep, the tears are the same. And kids get it.
48:40
So, it's not so much teaching, it's it it's sort of the values have developed.
48:47
They've grown up with the program.
48:49
And we now have a number of adults in quite high places.
48:52
And they have kept their values um as they as they leave the program and move on into adult life.
49:01
So, we've got teachers and people in government and people in law.
49:07
And and they're just remembering the importance of respect is a keyword.
49:12
Respect the environment, respect for animals.
49:15
And of course, I tell them about animals and how each one has a personality, a mind, and emotion, how pigs and rats and octopus are amazingly intelligent.
49:28
And how they can feel pain and fear and despair.
49:32
So, it depends on the children and their age, kindergarten, university, everything in between depends what I tell them.
49:42
But I do as many um gatherings of young people as I possibly can.
49:46
And as you say, now I can do it virtually.
49:51
And I can talk to them about things that I've learned.
49:53
I recall a few years ago speaking with a friend of mine who I considered to be a a good father, a good parent, and I asked him what advice he would have for someone like me considering having children.
50:06
I have none of my own yet.
50:09
And his advice, he had a number of pieces of advice, but his first was teach your children to be optimists.
50:15
And it seemed like a precursor or a prerequisite for so many other things.
50:24
And I'm I'm looking at a Time article, Time magazine article that is, that you wrote in 2002.
50:31
And I just want to read one paragraph and then ask you to elaborate or speak to it.
50:36
So, here's here's the paragraph.
50:40
The greatest danger to our future is apathy.
50:41
We cannot expect those living in poverty and ignorance to worry about saving the world.
50:45
For those of us able to read this magazine and my side note or listen to this podcast, it is different.
50:52
We can do something to preserve our planet.
50:53
You may be overcome, however, by feelings of helplessness.
50:57
You are just one person in a world of 6 billion.
50:58
How can your actions make a difference?
51:02
Best you say to leave it to decision makers and so you do nothing. Can we overcome apathy?
51:06
Yes, but only if we have hope.
51:08
And uh I'd love to hear you speak to that and also just to how you cultivate hope, whether that's in yourself or the people you speak to.
51:17
Well, you know, I have my reasons for hope, which I'm always sharing with people.
51:23
But um this thing of people feeling helpless cuz they don't know what to do, this message of our youth program that every individual makes a difference.
51:33
And you know, if it's just you picking up trash, if it's just you saving water, then it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.
51:44
But because people are becoming more aware all around the world, then there's not just you, but thousands, millions of people picking up trash and saving water.
51:57
And so, the message again being think about the consequences of the small choices you make every day. What do you eat? Where did it come from?
52:07
Did it harm the environment?
52:08
Was it cruel to animals like the intensive farming?
52:11
Um is it cheap because of child slave labor somewhere? Make ethical choices.
52:16
And because millions of people are making ethical choices, we're moving in the right direction.
52:25
And all of our young people, you know, they're influencing their parents and their grandparents.
52:29
I know that because the parents tell me.
52:33
So, you know, my reasons for hope, number one is the youth, as I've said, because they're just so inspiring.
52:41
And secondly, it's to start by saying it's very bizarre, but what makes us more different from chimps and other animals is this explosive development of our intellect.
52:55
I mean, look at what's happening now with just social media is one example.
53:00
You and I talking, we're far apart.
53:00
Uh we're reaching millions of people.
53:03
I mean, it's quite amazing, isn't it, when you think about it?
53:06
We sent rockets to Mars and all that sort of thing.
53:09
So, how odd that this most intellectual creature is destroying its only home?
53:17
So, there seems to be this disconnect between the clever brain and the human heart, which is love and compassion.
53:24
And you know, we're thinking about how does this help me now instead of how does it affect future generations?
53:33
So, now we're beginning to use our brains, or scientists are, uh to come up with more and more sophisticated technology that will help us live better live in more harmony with the natural world.
53:47
If governments would sponsor clean green energy rather than their succumbing to their ties with the oil and gas industry, we could be more or less off the grid in many countries today.
54:01
China and India are moving in that direction rapidly and UAE as well.
54:07
Um but each one of us can use our brains to think about the the environmental footprint we make each day.
54:16
And then there's the resilience of nature.
54:18
I tell people stories about areas that were totally destroyed, rivers, lakes, Lake Erie was so polluted that it set it caught fire.
54:26
It was so polluted and now there's fish swimming in it because people cared.
54:31
Animals on the brink of extinction have been given another chance.
54:37
We just have to save the habitats.
54:40
We have to change the mindset of those companies that want to destroy our forests to make money out of the wood or destroy forests to get minerals out of the ground to make more more money.
54:56
But then we've got to solve poverty because as you quoted earlier, if you're really poor what what can what can you do except um cut the last tree down because you're desperate to grow food to feed your family, eat the cheapest junk food because it you've got to do it to live.
55:16
So we have to solve poverty and the unsustainable lifestyle of the rest of us.
55:20
But you know, my last reason for hope is this indomitable human spirit, the people who tackle what seems impossible and won't give up.
55:28
And they may die as a result of their conviction, but in the end they succeed.
55:35
I would love to speak about the power of storytelling.
55:45
We've uh we've been discussing for at least a few minutes, or at least made mention of intellect and technology, two powerful and very interrelated facets of our human experience.
56:01
In watching the trailer for perhaps the next chapter of your life's work that uh will be shown and uh the story told in Jane Goodall: The Hope, which is going to premiere on Earth Day, April 22nd, on Nat Geo, and I'll include Nat Geo Wild and Nat Geo Mundo.
56:23
I'll include all of those details in the show notes, and also will have already mentioned them in the introduction.
56:28
But, there was a there was a quote in that trailer about changing minds.
56:33
And the the quote is this, "If you want somebody to change their mind, it's no good arguing.
56:38
You've got to reach the heart."
56:42
And I wanted to This might seem like a strange segue.
56:45
I'd love to ask the question of Mr.
56:47
McGregor and and how he came to his end.
56:53
Could you speak to who Mr.
56:55
McGregor was and ultimately how he died? Mr.
56:58
McGregor was an old male when I even when I first got to Gombe.
57:03
Slightly bald on the top of his head. Bit cantankerous.
57:08
And he was just really very very special.
57:11
And he had a special relationship with a young female.
57:16
I don't know if she was related to him, but he was old and she was young. He used to protect her.
57:21
And then, probably the darkest days, even worse than the war, was when the chimps were affected with a polio epidemic.
57:31
And it was a terrible time.
57:31
First one would come back dragging a paralyzed limb.
57:38
One male learned to walk upright because one arm got totally paralyzed. But Mr.
57:43
McGregor was paralyzed in both legs.
57:47
And he dragged himself up to the feeding station.
57:51
And I think the most awful part was that the other chimpanzees shunned him a fear of strangeness, which of course is very adaptive if it's an infectious disease.
58:04
But I can never forget there was a group of the other males grooming in a tree, and with enormous effort Gregor dragged himself from branch to branch with just the strength of his arms.
58:19
And they took one look and climbed down.
58:23
And the look on his face like oh all this effort, what have I done wrong? Why are they going away?
58:28
And very slowly he he he went down to the ground again.
58:37
And in the end we had to shoot him because well, we didn't have any other way of euthanizing him.
58:44
We could have kept him alive feeding him bananas, but if you'd seen the sadness on his face, there was no way that was a life for a chimpanzee.
58:55
It would have been cruel.
58:56
So it made a deep deep impression on me. Mr. McGregor.
59:01
And when I saw it in the movie, it brought I brought it all back. It was a terrible time.
59:10
What did you take from that experience, whether Mr.
59:17
McGregor and that entire uh experience or the polio itself affecting the chimpanzees around you.
59:28
What did you What did you take from that experience or learn from that experience?
59:34
Well, and they definitely caught it from human beings.
59:36
Um fortunately, none of us uh none of us at all.
59:44
But, there was an epidemic in the nearby town.
59:48
And for some odd reason, the doctor said it wasn't polio.
59:51
I don't know what he thought it was.
59:53
So, there was no medication, there was no vaccination.
59:58
And the first lame chimps were seen way down south near that place.
1:00:01
And I presume that it spread from them up to our community.
1:00:09
Because there was nobody in our staff or any anybody who got polio.
1:00:14
Um What did I take away from it?
1:00:18
Uh the fact that you know, I think human beings have tended to treat people who behave strangely with fear and shun them.
1:00:28
That's led to a lot of suffering.
1:00:32
Like uh uh people with cerebral palsy, people used to shut them away.
1:00:39
Not realizing that inside all those strange movements and sometimes strange sounds, inside is a is a is a perfectly normal brain.
1:00:49
But, that brain can't express itself. Um so Mr.
1:00:55
McGregor had a what we think was his younger brother.
1:00:59
And Humphrey was the only one who never left.
1:01:03
He wouldn't go near Gregor, but he stayed nearby in the trees even when all the rest of the group went far away feeding on some fruit. Humphrey stayed.
1:01:12
And after we we euthanized Gregor, we did it when no chimps were around including Humphrey.
1:01:20
For at least the next month, Humphrey came and sat in trees near where Mr. McGregor had been.
1:01:28
So, it it just taught me a lot about how chimpanzees and humans react to something strange.
1:01:34
If we then look at the work you're doing now, the work you've been doing over the last several decades, but particularly with the the youth program and also in my mind trying to affect change with decision makers, the the people in positions of power who are responding to their own incentives, whether that be could be getting reelected, could be power of some other type, it could be acquisition of of capital, could be any number of things.
1:02:07
Are there any stories that you have found particularly effective for reaching the heart, to grab the attention of uh of of people as you've traveled and spoken with so many over so many so many decades.
1:02:24
Is is there anything that sticks out to you?
1:02:28
Well, first of all, you're absolutely right. It's telling stories.
1:02:33
I always try and spend a little bit of time finding out the person I'm going to meet if it's somebody you know, in in government or something. Do they have children? Do they have dogs?
1:02:43
I mean, you know, just so you can start something off and not just I'm here for this, blah blah blah, lobbying on the hill, for example.
1:02:50
Um then try to tell stories because I've found that if you point fingers, if you're argumentative, if you're blaming, then you don't you don't see change because they're not going to let, especially a woman, some high high-powered man is not going to let a woman make him look stupid by saying, "Oh, you're right and then wrong."
1:03:16
Change, I believe, has to come from within.
1:03:19
And so, if you can reach the heart, and there was a medical research lab, and I managed to get better conditions in that lab by reaching the heart of the director of the lab, telling stories about the chimps.
1:03:39
And there was another director of a lab, and this is slightly different, but he had a 16-year-old daughter who came to one of my lectures, and I was showing secretly filmed footage of the awful conditions in the lab of which he was director, conditions for the chimps.
1:03:55
He said, "His daughter came back one day from this lecture sobbing and saying, 'Daddy, you're so cruel. How can you do this?'"
1:04:04
And he said, "Jane, for 2 years I absolutely hated you, but um he said, "Please, could you come and see the lab now, because you were right?"
1:04:15
And I never accused him directly, it was through his daughter, and he changed the lab completely.
1:04:20
And then, the last story I love. I was in a taxi.
1:04:23
It was very early in the morning. I was very tired.
1:04:26
I was going to have a snooze on the way to the airport.
1:04:30
And oh, he'd heard that I was one of those animal lovers, and oh, he couldn't stand that.
1:04:35
And his sister was one of those animal lovers, too.
1:04:36
And there were all these poor people, and why weren't we helping them?
1:04:40
What was it about animals?
1:04:42
So, I thought, oh, well, that's the end of my snooze.
1:04:44
And I pulled open the little window, leaned forward in in the jump seat, and I told him stories about the chimps, and stories about dogs, all the way to the airport.
1:04:56
Well, we got there, and he just grunted, and you know, I I thought, well, it didn't make any difference, but I had to try.
1:05:05
He owed me £10 at the end, because he didn't have any change.
1:05:10
So, I said, "Well, give it to your sister for the work she does in the shelter, animal shelter."
1:05:13
I never thought he would, but I got back 2 weeks later, and there was a letter from the sister, and she said, "First of all, I really want to thank you for your donation, but secondly, what did you do to my brother?"
1:05:26
She said, "He's listening to me.
1:05:29
He's been three times to help me in the shelter."
1:05:33
So, it's always worth doing your best, um because you never know what effect that is going to have.
1:05:42
Sometimes you will never know.
1:05:42
It was pure luck that that end up the way it did. That's incredible.
1:05:49
And if if we if we dig into that just a little bit more, whether it's that first director of the lab or the cab driver, you mentioned telling stories about the chimps, but there are many different ways to tell stories, and there are many stories that could be told.
1:06:04
What types of stories did you tell either of them that you think could have had that impact?
1:06:13
Oh, well, I talked about the very strong bonds between family members, the maternal behavior, um I told stories like when one infant lost his mother, he was 3 years old, little Mel.
1:06:30
He didn't have an older brother or sister who would have adopted him because that's what they do.
1:06:35
Um but he was adopted by a 12-year-old unrelated male who carried him around, who shared his food with him, drew him into the night nest, and they slept curled up together.
1:06:50
And most amazingly, an adolescent male would usually keep well out of the way of adult males when they're or they're socially aroused and charging about and screaming.
1:07:00
But little Mel, who normally would have been taken away by his mother before he got into danger.
1:07:09
And Spindel risked everything by running in to rescue him if he got too close to those males, even though he was beaten up quite badly himself cuz he was a the adolescent males are scapegoats for the big males.
1:07:23
And he saved Mel's life without any question.
1:07:27
So, that's the kind of story that I tell them.
1:07:29
You also seem to be uh a a aside from an expert storyteller uh very good at using imagery or symbols.
1:07:39
Uh and sometimes stories themselves are symbols, but uh could you describe Mr. H? Who's Mr. H? Huh. Mr.
1:07:51
H was given to me 28 years ago by a man called Gary Horn, which is why he's Mr. H.
1:08:01
Um Gary went blind when he was 21.
1:08:04
Decided to become a magician.
1:08:06
Everybody said, "But Gary, you can't be a magician if you're blind."
1:08:11
He did does shows for children.
1:08:11
I've watched him three or four times now.
1:08:17
And of course he sets his props up ahead of time.
1:08:20
The children don't know he's blind.
1:08:22
And at the end he'll tell them.
1:08:24
And he'll say, "You know, something might go wrong in your life. You can't tell.
1:08:28
If it does, don't give up.
1:08:28
There's always a way forward."
1:08:31
And he does scuba diving, cross-country skiing, skydiving.
1:08:37
But I think most amazing, he's taught himself to paint. And when he gave me Mr.
1:08:43
H, he thought he was giving me a stuffed chimp. But Mr. H has a tail.
1:08:48
And I made him hold the tail. He said, "Never mind.
1:08:50
Take him with you, and you know I'm with you in spirit."
1:08:53
So, he's one of those examples of the indomitable human spirit doing skydiving when you're blind, teaching yourself to paint.
1:09:02
And there's a picture in this he's done a little book called blind artist, which you can only get on Amazon.
1:09:12
And there's a portrait of Mr. H. He's never seen him. He's only felt him. And it's unbelievable. And And Mr.
1:09:21
H, if I'm not mistaken, has been many places with you.
1:09:26
I Is he I I don't know if you still have Mr. H, but Indeed I have. Um I definitely have Mr. H.
1:09:34
He's in this room with me.
1:09:36
Uh if I forget to take him to a lecture, sure to be a child who bursts into tears and said, "I wanted to touch Mr. H."
1:09:41
cuz I tell them the inspiration rubs off.
1:09:46
And But you know, I have other symbols.
1:09:47
I have one of the long long long, I think I'm trying to measure with my my hands, over 2-ft feather from um the wing of a California condor.
1:09:58
I've got all the proper permits for it.
1:10:01
And they were they were down to 12 birds, and now there's very many of them flying the skies.
1:10:09
And so I have that as a symbol of the fact we can save animals from extinction.
1:10:14
I've got a piece of the Berlin Wall.
1:10:18
There was a time after the wall when we thought that that Berlin Wall was up forever between East and West Germany. But it came down. Walls do come down.
1:10:31
Um despite what one of our country's presidents thinks about walls.
1:10:38
Um And so I I carry these little symbols with me.
1:10:42
I've got a piece of limestone from the quarry where Nelson Mandela labored for 21 years.
1:10:46
I think it was 21 years in a limestone quarry um before he attained his freedom and moved his country out of the evil regime of apartheid.
1:10:58
Do you still have Jubilee and could you explain who Jubilee is?
1:11:05
Jubilee, you know, so many people think that because my father gave me a very large stuffed chimpanzee when I was 1 and 1/2 that that is why I chose to study chimpanzees.
1:11:18
It couldn't be farther from the truth, but I did love Jubilee.
1:11:24
And um Jubilee I had when I was 1 and 1/2 and I'm 60.
1:11:27
I mean 86 now, so you can imagine. He's nearly bald now.
1:11:36
And he's actually sitting in the National Geographic exhibition in DC uh in a specially built bulletproof glass case because I didn't want him, you know, I thought it's dangerous for him to go away. He's much too precious.
1:11:52
But he was hand-carried and um he's sitting there.
1:11:55
And that exhibition is going to go online.
1:12:00
They've they've made it some way of showing it to people.
1:12:01
So people will be able to see the real Jubilee um in that in that It's called Becoming Jane.
1:12:12
So Jubilee went with me everywhere when I was a child.
1:12:14
I mean literally everywhere.
1:12:15
And when you then had your own child after your experiences uh with your mother, my understanding is that uh you didn't have much of a relationship with your father, but more so with your mother.
1:12:29
And then your experiences with the uh chimpanzee mothers, Flo for instance.
1:12:39
Uh how did you think about mothering uh or parenting?
1:12:43
Uh I I I I imagine a lot of it was sort of very primal drive that was created in you, but what did you decide?
1:12:55
Were there any decisions based on what your mother did with you or what you observed in Flo and others that affected your parenting style or mothering style?
1:13:05
Yeah, well, you know, I've never was never a sort of gooey over baby type. Um really.
1:13:12
And then of course when when I was pregnant, I thought about mothering and and I was in Africa.
1:13:19
Um I thought about the way mom raised me. I got Dr.
1:13:23
Spock was all the rage then, and actually he had some really sound advice.
1:13:27
But I also thought about Flo.
1:13:27
I had all those three examples along with as you say a sort of instinct because after the baby was born, of course I adored him.
1:13:40
And in that film Jane, I'd forgotten what a gorgeous baby he was actually. He was enchanting.
1:13:46
Anyway, so what I learned from the chimp mothers is just like us, there are good and bad mothers.
1:13:55
And the good chimp mothers are like mine, they support their child even if they know they're going to get attacked, they will run to rescue their child from danger.
1:14:05
And the offspring of those, now we can look back and find that they tend to do better.
1:14:12
They're more assertive, more confident.
1:14:14
The males reach a higher position in the hierarchy, probably sire more offspring.
1:14:18
And the females are better mothers.
1:14:21
But the one thing that I really took away from from um Flo and the other chimp mothers, they love to play with their babies.
1:14:33
They would spend hours playing with them.
1:14:35
And I thought, yes, I'm going to have fun with my baby, too.
1:14:37
And I did a lot of things that chimp mothers did, you know, lying on my back and um sort of dangling grub from my feet and tickling him and things like that.
1:14:50
So, I had a lot of fun with him and that came from the chimps.
1:14:53
How did he get the name Grub? It was very silly.
1:14:56
He was born about the same time as a little chimp called Goblin and Goblin was a very messy eater.
1:15:05
I mean, all the other chimps would tumble around playing and come out sleek and black and he'd have he'd have every burr around stuck to his his hair.
1:15:15
And one case he he got hold of a very big banana.
1:15:21
It was about as big as him and he's eating it but you know, he eats far too much.
1:15:25
So, he takes a mouthful, large mouthful.
1:15:30
He spits it into his hand.
1:15:30
He looks at it and then he smashes the hand with the banana all over his face.
1:15:35
Like my son, um he was a messy eater, too.
1:15:39
He didn't want to be weaned and he didn't like baby food and he would do much like Goblin.
1:15:47
He was a complete mess with it.
1:15:50
And so, it became Goblin the chimp, Goblin Grub and then my son became Grublin Gob.
1:15:56
So, his real name is Grublin nickname is Grublin.
1:16:02
And in in the in the film Jane I'm referring to for people listening and and we don't have to spend a ton of time on this if you prefer to discuss other things but I I found myself wondering after Grub was really raised in the bush and uh had this natural existence at some point the decision was made to help him socialize and be educated and I remember the footage in this film of walking down the street hand-in-hand in London.
1:16:32
What was it like for him going from these all-natural environments to that urban environment and being dropped off at school and just I suppose the time after that that he was dropped off.
1:16:44
Well, you know, he was quite a bit of the time not in the bush, he was in Nairobi. Mhm.
1:16:49
And he did go to school there, so it wasn't that new.
1:16:52
And also, my mother had been out visiting twice, so he knew her very very well.
1:17:00
And when he went back to England, he wasn't just dumped in the school, he went to live where I am now, in this house.
1:17:08
I'm actually in this very room.
1:17:08
And so, he was with an extended family.
1:17:14
And he actually loved school.
1:17:14
So, you know, it wasn't it it sort of sounds brutal, but it was more brutal for me than him, cuz he enjoyed school, and I felt that I shouldn't have let him go, but I wouldn't have if Mom and the family hadn't been there.
1:17:34
She was in a very loving home, and it wasn't really that strange. Mhm.
1:17:39
How do you relate to being alone?
1:17:39
It seems that you're very comfortable, incredibly comfortable spending time solitary, by yourself.
1:17:49
Uh certainly in in Africa that seemed to be the case.
1:17:52
Uh how do you relate to that?
1:17:55
I think that that being alone is something many people fear.
1:17:58
How do you think about it and relate to it?
1:18:00
Well, you know, when when I was a child, I was spending hours alone out with the birds and watching insects, with my dog, uh going up and down the cliffs of Bournemouth, which was actually really good training for Gombe, it's not that different.
1:18:14
And I used to spend hours up in the top of my favorite tree, which I'm looking at right now.
1:18:22
Um beech, it's a beech tree.
1:18:24
And I felt, you know, up near the birds and closer.
1:18:27
I I don't know, it was a wonderful feeling being alone.
1:18:29
Being alone out in the forest in Gombe, absolute bliss.
1:18:37
And the biggest problem with my life on the road is that I have so little time alone.
1:18:43
So, hotel rooms come to be a sort of haven in a way because I can shut and lock the door and I'm alone.
1:18:48
And do you do you find that you recharge by yourself?
1:18:53
Or what is what is what is your experience like by yourself?
1:18:55
I know that it might sound like a strange question, but many people busy themselves to avoid being alone or feeling alone.
1:19:02
What what uh What does it feel like for you to be alone?
1:19:07
It just feels really peaceful.
1:19:07
It It means that I can think my own thoughts.
1:19:14
Um I can do things like reading.
1:19:14
And I think being a child growing up with no TV, you know, reading Reading is much less busy than watching a TV show.
1:19:26
And I I think it's very sad that so many children don't get to read more and have all this television all the time.
1:19:33
You know, I was in love with Tarzan.
1:19:36
And when Mom saved up to take me to probably the first Johnny Weissmuller film that came over, great treat for Jane. She took me.
1:19:47
And after a little while I started to cry and she had to take me out.
1:19:48
She said, "Whatever's the matter?"
1:19:50
I said, "But that wasn't Tarzan."
1:19:54
Because as there was no TV and no movies, I had my own Tarzan that I fell in love with and it wasn't Johnny Weissmuller.
1:20:04
And you know, they don't have that opportunity anymore because right from the beginning they're deluged with with um information of how they should see the world.
1:20:11
You You strike me as someone with not just unique perspectives on the world, but a unique capability in sharing them through not not just storytelling and sheer endurance, but also uh a high degree of of compassion.
1:20:32
And this this is all a way of leading up to a question uh, related to something you mentioned earlier, and that is you just, a handful of days ago really, uh, turned 86.
1:20:47
And you seem as sharp as ever, as busy as ever.
1:20:51
Someone on your team was saying that you you they they their impression is that you seem to work from 6:00 a. m. to 10:00 p. m.
1:20:57
with the exception of a a dog walk in the middle.
1:21:02
To what do you attribute you the maintenance, uh, or maybe even increase of your mental clarity and sharpness and endurance for such a long period of time?
1:21:15
Well, first of all, I've obviously inherited very good genes from my father, actually.
1:21:20
That was a major contribution he made to who I am.
1:21:22
Um, a lot of the rest of it came from mum, but he had he was tough and strong. Uh, he could endure. So, he was in the war.
1:21:33
Anyway, um, what do I attribute it all to?
1:21:36
Well, I don't actually think people say, "Do you have Do you exercise? Do you meditate?
1:21:44
What What food What diet?" And on and on like that. "What supplements?"
1:21:46
And I say, "Well, I, you know, I just eat what's around.
1:21:53
Um, I don't want to eat very much. I don't care about food.
1:21:55
I don't take any supplements.
1:21:58
Um, I don't have a special diet except I'm vegetarian or when I'm at home now, vegan.
1:22:07
Um, and I don't have time to do exercise.
1:22:11
Usually, it's been just the airports.
1:22:14
Uh, walking with the dog now, yes, but he's old.
1:22:16
And he's the only dog I've ever met who doesn't like walking.
1:22:19
And even when he was younger, he didn't He's a whippet. He's more like a cat.
1:22:23
I mean, this morning, honestly, it was like taking a reluctant snail out for a walk.
1:22:35
It's It's because Well, I mean, if you think about things, and I've always loved writing.
1:22:42
I I think that's very important.
1:22:42
I didn't want to be a scientist.
1:22:44
I wanted to be a naturalist, live with animals, and write books about them.
1:22:50
And so, I've always loved writing.
1:22:50
My mother loved writing, too.
1:22:54
But I have a story somewhere.
1:22:54
I can't find it now, but I dictated it to her when I was five, and it's a charming little story about a giraffe with a neck that was so long he could reach up to the moon. That's Yeah.
1:23:08
So, it was always animals, you see. Mhm.
1:23:11
Um so, telling stories, thinking about stories, I used to write a lot of poetry.
1:23:19
Um and it's just, you know, if I'd known when I was younger what going to study chimps would mean, that I'd be having this life and become, thanks to Geographic, really becoming a sort of icon.
1:23:35
And when it first happened, I was really, really disturbed.
1:23:39
Um because, you know, why were people thinking about me like that? I was just me. I was a lucky person.
1:23:47
But then I realized, well, if people are going to recognize me because of Geographic and and come up and want a signature or a selfie now, um then I must make use of it and be nice to them and smile at them and give them a brochure and tell them about Roots & Shoots.
1:24:05
So, there was a time when, as I went around the US, you could see the Roots & Shoots groups springing up and like a comment with a tail.
1:24:12
But obviously, I was I look back on my life, honestly, Tim, and I see that there were the and at the end of a stage there was a crossroads, and it never seemed that I consciously made a decision.
1:24:27
It just was something that happened to change me.
1:24:33
And I think I've made the right decisions, and I'm meant to be here, and I'm meant to be doing this, and that gives me extra, I suppose, endurance to cope with it.
1:24:45
And I care passionately about the future for the environment, animals, and children.
1:24:51
And I suppose because I think a lot, I gained wisdom, I hope. And I want to share it.
1:25:00
Well, I think you're doing a a fantastic, beyond fantastic, job.
1:25:01
And what one thing I've also noticed and gathered from people who who work with you on your team, and seen certainly in videos, is that people, many fans of yours, many people you you encounter, become very emotional in your presence.
1:25:22
They might break down in tears, for instance.
1:25:27
That is not always the case with figures who are well known.
1:25:32
How would you explain that, or why do you why do you think that's the case that so many people get so emotional when they meet you? I don't know.
1:25:38
I've thought about it a lot.
1:25:42
And um I've asked them, and they don't seem to know, and then they apologize, and I say, "No, no, no. Don't apologize.
1:25:49
It's It's something for some odd reason I inspire these tears."
1:25:53
I ask them why they why they're crying, and they say, "Well, I never thought I'd see you.
1:25:58
I can't believe I'm seeing you.
1:26:00
I'm so happy to be to be here, and you've made my dream come true."
1:26:06
And I suppose I don't know.
1:26:08
My grandmother used to cry every time she was happy.
1:26:12
Seems like that Seems like you uh, make a lot of people happy, and perhaps it is, I mean, as a messenger of hope in many respects that you give people hope.
1:26:21
I think that, uh, there's in some respects a real shortage of hope uh, in in many people's minds.
1:26:30
And Media does so spend so much time giving the gloom and doom and there is a hell of a lot of gloom and doom, I know.
1:26:38
But there's also such wonderful things happening.
1:26:41
It's and sharing the good stories, the successes, um, the nobility of so many people, the self-sacrifice which we're seeing with the coronavirus, too.
1:26:52
Um, then then people realize all is not lost.
1:26:56
There's still a lot that we can do to make this a better world.
1:26:59
And after lectures, there's always at least one and often more people who come up and say, "I had lost hope, but I promise you I'm going to do my bit.
1:27:08
Thank you for giving me some hope again."
1:27:11
So, I think this job of mine of giving people hope um, is is a really important one right now.
1:27:20
Right now more than perhaps ever before.
1:27:22
And it's so compelling, I think, not just because you are good at giving people hope, but also because you are in a way living proof and the poster child for what hope can enable you to do if that makes any sense.
1:27:34
You're not just a passive commentator giving lip service to hope.
1:27:40
I mean, you are a case study in how much fuel and endurance in part hope can provide.
1:27:47
I think that's, at least for me, why it's so compelling and convincing and and inspiring. So, thank you for that.
1:27:57
You said that your friend told you to teach your children to be to be optimistic. Yes.
1:28:03
think it's it's really you can't teach them that.
1:28:07
But you can tell stories and tell stories about people and encourage them and support them.
1:28:13
I mean, so many parents have set views on what they want their child to be.
1:28:17
And the lesson I get from my mother is it was nobody was thinking about going to Africa and living with animals when I wanted to, except a few explorers, you know, who wanted to shoot them and put them in museums.
1:28:33
But when everybody laughed at me and said I'd never get there, I was just a girl, it was a war, we didn't have money, Mom said if you really want something like this, you're going to have to work really, really hard, but take advantage of every opportunity.
1:28:45
And if you don't give up, you'll find a way to do do that or something something else that you really, really want to do.
1:28:57
And that story I that wisdom I take and share with young people everywhere, especially in disadvantaged communities.
1:29:05
And I wish Mom knew how many people have said, "Jane, thank you.
1:29:08
You taught me that because you did it, I can do it, too."
1:29:13
You have so many projects and opportunities ahead of you.
1:29:18
Before I perhaps tie this to a close with a description of a few things that you have coming and then tell people where they can find out more about you and certainly follow along with your continued adventures, I'd be curious to ask if you had a billboard, metaphorically speaking, that could get a message out to billions of people.
1:29:46
It could be a word, a phrase, a question, an image, really anything.
1:29:53
What might you put on that billboard?
1:29:56
Remember that you make a difference every single day. Hm, perfect.
1:30:01
It could not be could not be more perfect. Uh Dr.
1:30:07
Jane Goodall, you have a new documentary.
1:30:13
This is uh certainly continuing to showcase the incredible work you do.
1:30:19
This is Jane Goodall subtitled The Hope, which is premiering on Earth Day.
1:30:21
That's this April 22nd, 9:00 Eastern 8:00 Central on Nat Geo, Nat Geo Wild, and Nat Geo Mundo.
1:30:30
It is a 2-hour documentary special that will take viewers through chapters of your journey in 60 years since your groundbreaking discoveries in Gombe, researching wild chimpanzees, including your activism, creation of your nonprofit organization, uh where and also where people can find more about you, janegoodall. org.
1:30:47
That is the Jane Goodall Institute, JGI, and Roots & Shoots, rootsandshoots. org.
1:30:54
That is your youth program, along with your current efforts to inspire the next generation.
1:30:58
And I would go I step further and say, not just efforts, but successes.
1:31:02
It's it's tremendously inspiring.
1:31:04
Not just Not just because of the ethos, but the actual effect that you are having. It's just remarkable.
1:31:13
People can find you on social media.
1:31:16
You're also doing some very fun things, like story time with Dr.
1:31:19
Jane, but Instagram, that is @janegoodallinst, like institute, i n s t.
1:31:23
Twitter, janegoodallinst.
1:31:27
And same on Facebook, janegoodallinst.
1:31:30
And then the Roots & Shoots is the same on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.
1:31:33
The handle is @rootsandshoots.
1:31:37
This has been such a tremendous honor and pleasure for me to spend uh so much time with you.
1:31:44
Uh I appreciate your your generosity in granting the interview, providing time, and also really keeping up the good fight.
1:31:52
And being a purveyor and spreader of hope in a world where it is so easy to succumb to despair and hopelessness.
1:32:00
It's It's just tremendous.
1:32:03
It's It's really a gift that you are providing.
1:32:06
So, I hope that that you're able to feel that and let that sink in at times.
1:32:11
But, I I appreciate you so much for taking the time to chat with me today.
1:32:16
Well, I want to thank you, too, for giving me the chance to chat to you.
1:32:18
I like getting interviewed by lots and lots of people.
1:32:22
And sometimes it's a bit boring, but I haven't been at all bored talking to you. So, thank you, Tim.
1:32:30
That really means so much. And please keep it up.
1:32:34
I will do my best to get your message, your work, this interview to many millions of people who hopefully will in turn share it and spread it because I think that that hope really is the foundation here, a part of which so much else depends.
1:32:54
And for everyone listening, I will have everything in the show notes links to everything we discussed at tim. blog/podcast. And Dr.
1:33:04
Jane Goodall, thank you so much.
1:33:09
And I hope we get to meet in person someday. Oh, I'm sure we shall. Thank you, Tim Ferriss.
1:33:15
Hey guys, this is Tim again.
1:33:15
Just a few more things before you take off.
1:33:17
Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday.
1:33:19
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And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week.
1:33:38
That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered.
1:33:40
It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird that I've somehow dug up in the uh the world of the esoteric, as I do.
1:33:48
It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.
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It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend.
1:34:01
So, if you want to receive that, check it out, just go to 4hourworkweek. com. That's 4hourworkweek.
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With LinkedIn Ads, you can catch the right professionals, the right people at the right time, and I'll tell you how I'm using them personally in a minute.
1:34:34
LinkedIn Ads can drive traffic to your landing pages, for instance, engagement, and for many of you, most importantly, conversions, whether that's registrations for an event, downloads of white papers and ebooks, or other important metrics.
1:34:46
Me, personally, I'm going to be testing LinkedIn Ads to drive sign-ups to my free newsletter, Five Bullet Friday, which I've realized drives just about everything else.
1:34:54
With precise targeting through LinkedIn, entrepreneurs, startups, and SMBs, that's small medium-sized businesses, can better and more cost-effectively reach the people who matter to them specifically.
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With more than 62 million decision-makers on LinkedIn, you're able to connect with the business leaders or just the target audience who are most relevant to your company and deliver a clear call to action.
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That's always where I focus a lot of my energy, obviously, headline and call to action.
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LinkedIn Ads allows you to cut through the clutter and ensure your messages are getting through to the people you most want to target.
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So, huge, medium-sized, and small businesses alike are all making the most out of LinkedIn Ads, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, you name it. So, try for yourself.
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LinkedIn is offering a free $100 LinkedIn Ad Credit to launch your first campaign. Simply visit linkedin.
1:35:42
com/tfs, as in Tim Ferriss Show. Again, that's linkedin. com/tfs.
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Terms and conditions apply.
1:35:53
This episode is brought to you by ExpressVPN.
1:35:56
I've been using ExpressVPN since last summer.
1:35:58
And I started using it as a full retail paying customer.
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I always test things before considering sponsors.
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And I find it to be a super reliable way to make sure that my data are secure and encrypted.
1:36:11
Do you like how I said data are like a pompous ass?
1:36:12
But I like to ensure that my data are secure and encrypted.
1:36:16
But to do so without slowing down my internet speed.
1:36:19
If you ever use public Wi-Fi, let's say a hotel or coffee shop where I often work, and as many of my listeners do, you're often sending data over an open network, meaning no encryption whatsoever.
1:36:30
One way to ensure that all of your data are encrypted and cannot be easily read by hackers or script kiddies or whoever is by using ExpressVPN.
1:36:43
And the onboarding process for ExpressVPN, meaning the sign-up flow, the use of the product, is one of the best I've ever seen in my life.
1:36:52
All you need to do is download the ExpressVPN app on your computer or smartphone, and then use the internet just as you normally would.
1:36:58
You click one button in the ExpressVPN app to secure 100% of your network data.
1:37:02
It's kind of ridiculously simple.
1:37:05
And as many of you know, I only recommend brands that I have researched and vetted thoroughly.
1:37:13
For me, of the many VPN solutions out there, ExpressVPN is one of the best on the market, and I use it personally.
1:37:18
Here are two reasons why. First, privacy.
1:37:20
ExpressVPN does not log your data.
1:37:23
Lots of cheap or free VPNs make money by selling your data, believe it or not, to ad companies and so on.
1:37:31
ExpressVPN developed technology called trusted server to prevent their servers from logging your information. Second, speed.
1:37:38
Many VPNs slow your connection down or make your device seem sluggish, just to a crawl.
1:37:44
I've been using ExpressVPN for a while now, as I mentioned, and my internet speeds are blazingly fast. I don't even notice it.
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Honestly, I forget that it's even on.
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So, that includes when I connect to servers thousands of miles away or during travel, I can still stream HD quality videos with zero lag.
1:38:04
The last thing that really sets Express VPN apart is how easy it is to use.
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As I mentioned earlier, unlike other VPNs, you don't have to input or program anything.
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You just start up the app, click one button, and that's it. Super, super simple.
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And by the way, it's not just me saying all this about Express VPN.
1:38:20
You've got TechRadar, The Verge, CNET, and many other publications rating Express VPN as the number one VPN in the world.
1:38:28
So, consider protecting yourself with the VPN that I use and trust. Use my link expressvpn.
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com/tim today and get an extra three months free on a one-year package. That's expressvpn. com/tim. Visit expressvpn. com/tim to learn more.