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Tetrogrammaton. [music] Tetro.
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[music] The concept of resistance with a capital R is that there's a negative force built into the universe, a diabolical, intelligent, ever mutating force whose only charge is to stop you and me from becoming our authentic selves, from achieving self-actualization one way.
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>> It's not about our work.
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It's stopping us from being ourselves.
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>> Stopping us from being what we were born to be. Yeah.
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And doing what we were born to do, which doesn't necessarily apply to work.
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It could be something else.
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Nobody teaches you about this.
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So, a lot of people with all the best intentions succumb to this negative force.
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One of the aspects of this force is it's so diabolical that you don't even know it's there.
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I mean, it defeated me for like seven years of running around all across the country doing all kinds of stuff and I never knew it was there.
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And then when I finally could give a name to it and say, "Ah, there's a negative force [ __ ] me up, then I kind of could free myself from it because I could say, "Ah, I see. I see you."
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It's sort of like the predator, you know, where it could blend into the jungle and you never knew it was there until it killed you.
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And once they saw, oh, like there's there it is.
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>> In your process from having a first draft, how close is the final book to your first draft?
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>> It's pretty close, >> really.
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>> Which is I I was reading what was it?
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It's a book called writing the blockbuster novel and it was by the agent I forgot his name of Ken Flet the guy who did pillars of the earth a million things and one of the things in the book was he showed like a first draft of one of Ken Flet's book or part of it and then showed how it changed
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like radically the second draft ninth draft that kind of thing and and when I read it I thought oh man I I must be doing something wrong because mine doesn't really change very much >> but it doesn't it just doesn't it may there may be two or three big bu building blocks that might change. I might move something
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I might move something from the third act to the second act or I might come up with two new things that would fit in there.
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But basically a lot of times and I feel bad about this.
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It's like there's no right or wrong way though. It works.
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>> It came out the first time pretty much like I hoped it would.
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>> Tell me about the editing process. Do things get shorter?
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>> No, for me they don't.
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They stay about the same.
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If I wind up adding something, I'll usually take something out.
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>> But are you working towards a length or no?
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It just happens that way.
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>> It just happens kind of by itself.
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I sort of have a sense for how long it should be.
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And the main thing I'm sort of checking against myself is, is the reader getting bored?
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If I drag this out for another 60 pages, am I going to lose them or if I make it too short, is it not going to actually come together?
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>> Do you always work on one thing at a time?
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I like to work on one thing at a time because I like to get completely immersed in it.
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But sometimes, you know, the outer world, you have two things, right?
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One thing you may be collaborating with somebody on something, so you got to do that, but you don't want to let the first thing go.
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I I can't juggle four or five balls.
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What about What about you, Rick?
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When you're working in this, >> I like to juggle different projects.
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Ah, >> it works as a pallet cleanser.
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Ah, >> I feel like if I get too close inside of something, I lose my objectivity.
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>> So for me, especially with music, when I'm working on multiple things, the best situation is for me to come back to it even after a day of thinking about something else >> and feeling like I'm hearing it for the first time. >> That really helps me.
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>> Oh, that makes sense to me. >> Yeah.
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On the other hand, I can tell you that on certain projects for me getting completely immersed in it so that it's really the only way to go.
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>> Do you ever start a project and then abandon it? >> Almost never.
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And which is kind of odd too.
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Mainly it's I think it's because if you're writing fiction, if you're writing a novel, you have to in order to sell it to a publisher, you have to write the whole thing, right?
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It's not like non-fiction where you can do a proposal and get a contract based on the proposal.
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So if I'm if I'm toying with two or three ideas, which one do I want to do?
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I have to ask myself, which one are you willing to spend two and a half years on completely on the come, you know?
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So, by the time I've made that decision, committed, you know, and I do believe that no matter what self-doubt you have, at least in fiction, in a novel, finish the [ __ ] you know, you can't take counsel with your self-doubts. >> Yeah.
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>> At least that's my experience.
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>> Do you not have a relationship with a publisher who you've worked with for a long time?
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>> It's been different ones. >> Every time. >> Not every time.
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Sometimes been two or three in a row, but It's been pretty much different and people come in and out of the business, right?
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Your editor retires or you know you have a fight with them or that kind of thing.
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>> Tell me about the relationship with an editor. What's that like?
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>> My one great editor is a guy named Shawn Coin who we were partners in the little publishing company that did the War of Art and other things like that. >> All non-fiction. >> Well, no.
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No, cuz he was the editor for Gates of Fire, Tides of War.
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>> But in the publishing company partnership, >> that was all non-fiction.
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It was all kind of books like The Creative Act, and like The War of Art.
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And I was blessed by heaven to have found him and him to find me because I just never found him to be wrong about anything.
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Like a lot of times I would just sort of spew a book out, you know, like Thomas Wolf or something.
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And if you asked me, "What is this book about?"
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In other words, what's the theme? I wouldn't know.
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And I'd give it to Sean and he would tell me, you know, he would say, "Look, this book is about such and such and that's why we have to cut this and that's why we have" and I each time I would go, "Wow, is that what it's really about? I have no idea."
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You know, working with him was really a great thing.
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Oddly enough, my girlfriend Diana is now Sean and I had a little divorce a while ago. She's a terrific editor. Great.
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>> And has really helped me a lot.
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>> But I I I feel sorry for those young writers particularly that don't have someone they can look to that that really understands it.
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And I think it's really a rare talent.
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You're in essence are are being providing a kind of an editor role in the sense of you go I love this.
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I'm not so sure about this. That kind of thing.
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And if you don't have somebody like that, you can get lost in the forest >> really easy and psyching yourself out.
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You know, >> do you have people that you share like if you write a chapter that you share the chapter?
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>> No, I deliberately don't do that.
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I mean, our friend Randy >> Yeah.
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>> is just Randy Wallace who wrote Braveheart and done a lot of other things.
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He's probably the closest, but I would not impose on him to say read this. Yeah. >> Yeah.
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He certainly is somebody I I would ask to do that, but I don't because I don't want to impose on him.
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>> And you think of it as an imposition or do you not necessarily want feedback too soon in the process?
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>> It's a little bit of both.
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I think a little bit of both.
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I I do really believe that bottom line is you got to answer the question yourself.
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But also, it's a hell of an imposition to ask somebody like Randy or you. You're busy.
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You got a million things.
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How dare I say read this thing.
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It's going to take you 10 hours to and then give me feedback.
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That's a lot a lot to ask.
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People ask me to do that all the time. Yeah.
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And I go, "What am I free?"
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You know, forget about it.
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>> Tell me about the different collaborations you've been in and how they work.
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>> When I worked with Ron Shuset as a screenwriter, he was very much the established guy.
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And he was not really a writer writer.
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In other words, you he couldn't sit down at the typewriter keyboard and write a scene.
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He was more of a producer writer.
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Like thinking about the movie Alien, you know, the scene where the alien bursts out of the guy's chest, John Herz's chest. That was Ron's idea.
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That's the kind of thing that he would come up with, you know, this dynamite sci-fi idea, conceptual. >> Yeah.
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So, he might not be able to write it, but he could say, "Here's what it's going to be." He was a great guy.
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If he threw 10 ideas at him, he'd pick the one that was the best.
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And I was very much younger than he was.
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And it was a great collaboration for me in that sense that I I learned so much from him.
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Not that he would ever teach me anything.
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It wasn't he ever sit down and tell me anything.
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I just saw how he worked and how he thought.
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Like being a producer, he was constantly looking for material.
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And sci-fi was kind of his area.
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So he would read analog and whatever the sci-fi magazines are. He loved film noir.
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He would make me watch these terrible things from them.
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But we would always be looking for the kernel, the concept that we can steal and make better.
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>> There was a time when every great thinker had a confidant, a trusted companion with whom to wrestle ideas, to think out loud, to help uncover the essence of what path [music] to take next and how best to follow through.
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That role has always mattered [music] because meaningful problems require context, patience, and the ability to hold complexity.
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patterns appear that would otherwise remain buried.
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Claude operates with continuity by securely connecting to professional tools, documents, calendars, and project platforms.
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Are all good ideas based on stealing something?
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>> In one way or another, I think they are.
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Like the the book that I just finished now, The Arcadian, which is a story set in the 16th century Spain, but it flashes back to the Roman legions and to that era because about previous lives.
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But that came I I stumbled on a quote 40 years ago from Empedicles, the Greek philosopher, and I hung on to it for like 40 years cuz I said there's a story in here somewhere, but I can't find it. >> Yeah.
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>> And so I'm stealing from from that.
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>> Could also say inspired by >> I'm inspired by that. It's the same Yeah. It's the same thing.
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You know, you might see a movie and there's a kernel of something, but something is always going to trigger something.
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and Bob Dylan like everything he does comes from somewhere.
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>> So when you're starting a project like your latest one, do you do a lot of research? >> Not really.
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And this I also learned from Randy Wallace.
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If you think about Braveheart, that's quite historically accurate, we would think, you know.
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So I asked him one time, you know, I said, "What?
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How do you handle research?"
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And he said, "I do as little as possible."
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He said, "The most important thing is the story.
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get the story right, what's going to happen to William Wallace.
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Not that he wouldn't immerse himself in the history of William Wallace all along, but then let's go back and and see how it really fits into Edward Long Shanks or the battle of whatever it was, you know, but I know that he's like me.
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The story is the important thing, you know, the old thing of if it comes to a choice between the facts and the legend, print the legend, you know. >> Yeah.
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Tell me more about the new book.
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The new book is I have this recurring character, Telmon of Arcadia, who is a solitary mercenary of the ancient world.
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Kind of the in my view the oneman killing machine of the ancient world.
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Sort of like the Clint Eastwood man with no name type of character.
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And he's been in four books.
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He's sort of an bit of an alter ego for me.
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And the way without getting into a long long story, Rick, Telmon has a problem.
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And the problem is that for crimes that he committed in a previous life, he has been condemned by heaven to live lifetime after lifetime, always as a soldier, always killing and being killed.
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In other words, he's on the wheel of karma, right? He's been damned. He's been cursed.
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And so his objective is to get off of this to somehow serve his time and and be made free from it.
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And so in each one of these Telmon books, he's in a different era, but he's like Hindus would think of previous lives. We're evolving, right?
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We're learn we're learning the same lesson kind of over and over and over and and evolving little by little.
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So in this particular story, he has a hint at the start.
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Maybe this is his last life.
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Maybe he'll get off the wheel of karma in this one.
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There's about >> When you wrote the first story with him in it, did you know he was on the wheel of karma and he'd be coming back again and again?
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>> That's really interesting, I think, because again, I'll get in the weeds here.
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The first story that I did about him, he was an assassin. Yeah.
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In the Pelpeneisian War, the war between Athens and Sparta.
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He was a minor character and he just sort of came in of his own like somebody that walked in the door and I hadn't planned it at all and I never thought, "Oh, I'll never see him again." That's the last.
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He was like the final image of the book was him.
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Then a few years later, I found myself bringing him back as a teacher to the young Alexander the Great.
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Again, he's sort of the archetypal soldier, the classic soldier.
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This was like 130 years apart and he hasn't aged a day.
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>> How long was it in your life apart?
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>> Seven years, something like that.
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So then I began to think something's going on here.
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You know, this guy has a life of his own.
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And I thought, I got to do a book that's about him only. But I couldn't find it.
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Finally, that empetedly quote, I put that together with him.
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And that gave me the idea for a book called A Man at Arms.
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came out about 5 years ago and then this new new book, The Arcadian, is sort of evolved out of that.
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So, the character has a life of his own.
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>> Would you say it's a sequel to the last book or No, >> it is a sequel. Yes.
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Across 1500 years, it's a sequel.
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And then I just finished another Telmon story that I haven't shown to anybody yet.
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And it's set so far in the past that it's when the continent shifted.
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And it's my concept of what that era was like is that there were great civilizations then that had access to the occult powers beyond anything we know now.
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And these civilizations have completely vanished below Atlantis type of thing.
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And so this is kind of the young Telmon, the young warrior in this setting.
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Is that something that you believe might actually be true?
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>> I absolutely believe it's true.
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It goes against everything they say in science.
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Like supposedly the human race has only been around 700,000 years, which to me I can't even remotely believe that that's true.
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We've got to been around for millions of years, you know, but what do I know?
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In any event, print the legend. Forget the facts.
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>> But is it rooted in any legends that you've researched or is it a knowingness that you have?
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It's kind of a knowingness, but I'm sure if I if we had Joseph Campbell here and I told him his story, he say, "Oh, that's the story of Kexo K," you know, and he'd go through 30 things. Yeah.
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>> Tell me about your relationship to your characters.
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>> I certainly love them all, including the villains, particularly the villains.
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I love the villains, but they are like your kids, you know, they're all different.
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They're all different aspects of of you.
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And in many ways, I sort of feel if I look back over my life and I remember my real friends or women I was really with in some crazy way, my characters are more real to me than many real people.
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And people will sort of say sometimes ask me or ask any writer, "Aren't you lonely just being in a room with a keyboard?"
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And I'm not because I'm there with my characters and I love them.
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>> Do you ever speak to them out loud?
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>> No, I don't do that, but I know people do.
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>> Do you read your work out loud ever to see what it sounds like?
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>> No, I don't do that either, but I will read it myself to myself. >> Silently. >> Silently. I see.
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>> And another thing I'll do is I might say, "What if Rick Rubin were reading this?
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What would he think of this?
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What would Randy think of this if he if he read it?"
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And that sometimes helps me that I'll say will they get would they be bored at this point here or would they think oh this is really good rather than what do I think of it?
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>> What's going to happen with that new book the one that no one's seen?
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>> Oh the next person to read it will be Diana who will be like my editor. >> Nice.
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>> If she likes it and has anything you know any I'll just make changes whatever that she might suggest then I'll give it to actually have a real agent now that I trust.
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So he he'll be the next person and then if he likes it, we'll take it to see if we can find somebody to publish it.
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>> Does something like a personal issue that you're dealing with impact your work?
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>> Not consciously, but I do think when I look back on something that I did maybe two years ago or three years ago, I can say, "Wow, I was really dealing with a certain issue and there it is in metaphorical form." Mhm.
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>> But certainly not consciously.
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>> You don't find it harder to sit down to write if you have other troubles in your mind? >> No.
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In fact, writing is a refuge for me.
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>> Do you look forward to writing? >> I do.
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Well, despite the fact of resistance with a capital R that it's always hard to do and you got to fight your way through, you know.
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It must be the same for you when you go into the music studio, right? >> Yeah.
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At first there's always apprehension because I have no idea what's going to happen. >> Yeah.
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And I know it's out of my control.
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That's another part of it.
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So the unknown is always >> anxiety producing.
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>> So even for you >> Oh, absolutely. >> Every time.
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But as soon as there's some glimmer of something good, then I know it's going to be okay and I relax.
20:34
>> When the lights [music] go down, the body gets to work.
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Sleep is not passive time.
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It's an active biological state.
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one in which the brain clears metabolic waste, [music] the nervous system resets, and the body begins repair at a cellular level.
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>> Do you deal at all with self-doubt? >> No. >> Tell me about that. Why?
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Because think about this idea, doubting yourself.
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If I gave you a piece of pizza and you tasted it and I asked you, "Do you like the pizza or no?"
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You would answer and there would be no doubt in I really love the pizza or I don't like it at all.
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>> But a piece of music, you might say to yourself, "Am I do I really do I love this? >> It's all pizza." >> Uhhuh. Okay.
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>> And >> that's the title of your next book.
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[laughter] It's as simple as is this something that I want to turn up the volume on?
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Is this something I want to skip to the next song?
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>> That's the first part of it.
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To get to something you're interested in, something you want to hear again.
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>> Do I want to hear it again?
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>> While I'm listening, am I leaning forward because I don't know what's going to happen next? That's a good feeling. >> Mhm.
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>> If it just goes through all of the steps that I'm expecting, >> it's much less interesting.
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If I don't completely understand what's happening, that could be a good thing, not a bad thing. >> Uhhuh.
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>> If it's unfamiliar in a way that causes me to wonder, that's a good thing. >> Mhm.
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I mean, I have that feeling too, and it produces self-doubt in me, you know?
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It's like I wonder what is this?
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But I I have found that like the first 6 months or nine months of a project of a fiction project that I'm racked with self-doubt all the way through. Is this a good idea?
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Is anybody getting interested? Can I pull it off? >> Yeah.
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>> And to the point where I feel like if I'm not feeling self-doubt, something's wrong.
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>> Cuz self-doubt, at least in my terms, it would be resistance.
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So, it would be the devil trying to stop me.
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So, if I if I'm feeling that devil's voice, then I must be on to something.
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>> It's a similar thing with me, but it happens later.
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Like once it's out in the world, if I love something and share it with the world and if some people hate it, I get giddy.
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I love it when people hate something. Love it. >> Tell me about why. Why?
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>> Well, because I know the best things you either love them or you hate them. >> Well, it's true.
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>> If everyone's like, "Oh, that's pretty good." >> Yeah.
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>> I don't want that's pretty good.
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>> I want this is the best thing I've ever heard or I absolutely hate it.
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And if it has a strong enough charge for people to hate it, so some small fraction of people can like it and that's the audience. >> There you go.
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Can you really detach yourself from the outcome of something?
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>> Absolutely >> you can. >> Yeah.
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I couldn't always, but I can now. >> Ah, what changed?
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>> Well, in the beginning of my career, I made a lot of things in a row that were very successful and then still doing the same things.
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I did the first couple of things that were not successful.
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And I realized that those are no less good than the ones that were successful.
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It's just a different metric. What people think. >> Uhhuh.
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>> I'm not playing the what people think game.
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I'm making the thing that I like and I'm showing it to my friends. >> Uhhuh.
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>> And if they like it, great.
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And if they don't like it, it's okay.
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I can sleep well cuz I know I did everything I could to make it the best it could be.
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>> I always use the word greatness.
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I'm working towards greatness.
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I didn't know what it meant. Greatness is not sales. It's not reviews.
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>> It's not radio airplay. It's greatness.
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>> And are you the only judge of that? >> Well, yes.
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And what I've come to realize is greatness means it's an offering to God.
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>> Ah, >> and if you're making an offering to God, it's your very best.
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Your offering to God doesn't change because of airplay. Uh-huh.
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>> It's deeper than that. That's a surface thing.
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>> That's a great thing, Rick.
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You know, >> and that's what it's about in that realm.
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It's always your best >> cuz that's like in the Bavad Gita.
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That's really almost the essence of the whole thing that what you do give Krishna says to Arjuna, give it to me. >> Yes. >> Give that to to me. That's the highest form.
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My friend James Bashar who actually just lives not too far from here has this thing from Vanta that is work without attachment is worship which I think is really great and it's sort of in many ways it's boiling down religion to like the the nut of it.
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I think we're really in a deep area here. >> Yeah.
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>> That it's an offering to God in that sense. >> Yes.
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And I would put it a slightly different way that when we're working with attachment to an outcome, we're in our ego.
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We're going, "Oh, I want this to be a hit.
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Oh, I really want, you know, the girls.
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I want the that kind of thing."
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And no good music ever came out of that, right?
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We have to get to our Mian self or soul and work out of that without that attachment.
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Then the good [ __ ] comes.
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But to be able to do that is a really tough thing.
27:45
I think when you're young, you really are attached to that outcome and you have to evolve through that, I think. >> Yeah.
27:54
Cuz I was successful early on.
27:54
I never had that push back early on.
27:59
>> And then when I did feel it for the first time, it was like, hm, >> they don't like everything. >> That's interesting.
28:04
I know it's just as good.
28:06
Ah, >> but then I realized there's so many things that have to go right for something to be successful in the world that have nothing to do with the work. >> Right.
28:16
And a lot of times it's cuz it's bad. >> Yeah.
28:18
It's all out of our control. >> Yeah.
28:20
>> I made an album and it came out the same week as 9/11.
28:24
All of the focus in the world was on this disaster and no one cared about a new album. Those things happen.
28:33
>> You can't plan on that.
28:33
And it doesn't reflect on the work at all. >> No.
28:37
Of course, it's easy to say that and harder to do.
28:39
I don't know if you know who Bruce Wagner is.
28:41
He's a writer of fiction.
28:44
Really good writer of fiction.
28:46
And I think this this was on a podcast and he was talking about this subject and he was saying how yeah I try to do this entirely for myself and what I love and that sort of thing but he says I can't help but looking at the bestseller list every you know >> does the muse direct you outside of your writing life >> since our house burned down? Yes.
29:05
I find that I'm reaching for and that wasn't true before.
29:13
I'm reaching for something, some divinity, some source of wisdom, and she's the one for me. >> Yeah. >> So, I do.
29:25
>> How is your relationship with the muse these days?
29:28
>> It's always been It's always been great.
29:31
>> Are you superstitious? >> Yeah.
29:33
I mean, but I don't think it's superstition. I think it's reality.
29:37
>> Now, is it reality because it goes for everybody or is it reality because you believe it?
29:42
I certainly believe it and it's certainly reality for me.
29:44
Yeah, >> that's as far as I can take it.
29:48
>> How much does your day-to-day life and your writing life interact with each other?
29:56
>> Like right now I have this new book coming so I'm promoting it.
29:58
So then my that's part of my everyday life and [clears throat] it really is.
30:02
But normally I would say no.
30:03
I mean it's like I go into my writing room like you go into the studio.
30:09
I leave everything at the door and it's a sacred space.
30:12
I'm there to work and to serve the muse and when it's over the office is closed.
30:20
I try not to think about it. I leave it. So, yeah.
30:25
So, my everyday life doesn't really react that much to my writing life.
30:30
>> Do you ever have thoughts about your work after hours that you might note down? >> Yes, I do. Yeah, definitely.
30:36
I have always have my phone.
30:38
>> You're not actively pursuing it?
30:38
I'm not, but every now and then in the middle of the night a dream or something like that. Yeah.
30:45
>> Do you remember your dreams? >> I record them.
30:46
Otherwise, I would forget them.
30:48
Do you remember your dreams? >> Sometimes. Sometimes.
30:52
>> Do you believe in dreams?
30:52
Do you believe they're passing wisdom to you? >> I think so.
30:56
I think there's information in them.
30:59
I don't know if it's usable information or more like a reflection of what's going on.
31:05
Almost like some sort of a journal in a way.
31:08
>> Ah, I would say the same thing. I would agree.
31:10
I think a lot of times my dreams, I do take them very seriously.
31:12
I think a lot of times they're sort of saying to me, "This is what's going on in your inner world, Steve, whether you realize it or not.
31:22
You know, you're dealing with this issue."
31:25
>> And usually it's pretty dark.
31:27
>> It's like, "Oh, fuck."
31:30
>> Last time we spoke, there's a quote something you said, which is commitment is felt, not reasoned.
31:38
I'm certainly a believer in in commitment. >> Yeah.
31:41
>> That it's sort of that when the gods look down on us at you when you're working or me when I'm working, what they are asking is, is this [ __ ] committed or not?
31:51
And if you are, that's the key that opens the lock.
31:57
>> So the muse responds to commitment. >> Yes. Absolutely.
32:04
I think and hard work can't just be committed theoretically.
32:11
>> Has your relationship to writing changed over the course of your life?
32:16
>> Yeah, because for the first third of my writing life, I was running away from writing.
32:22
Then I was a bum and I was just learning and I didn't know anything and I was no good, you know, and I was getting nowhere.
32:30
Then it was a period where I started to do some good stuff but it wasn't really coming from my soul you know wherever that inner authenticity is and then finally I did start writing from that center which was a mystery like you say Rick I didn't know and it changes from one to another but since then which was like 1995 or something like that pretty much everything I've done has been I'm proud of it. I'm not ashamed of it.
33:06
Some failed, some didn't.
33:09
But I'm I'm writing from my relation with the goddess.
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34:54
Are you as interested in writing non-fiction books as you are writing fiction books? >> No. >> They're fun. >> Yeah. And they're helpful. >> And they are helpful.
35:05
And like there's the War of Art and then there's like six or seven follow-ups to it.
35:08
And I've got another one that I'm actually noodling around with right now.
35:12
And that's fun, but it's not the same not not the same challenge.
35:17
One is pros and one is poetry. >> Yeah.
35:21
There's so much wisdom in the war of art and the people who read it are writers and there are a lot of people out there who don't think of themselves as writers >> who would really benefit from this information.
35:37
>> Well, that book is the one that's coming out the Arcadian and the next one that I told you about where the planets shift. >> Really?
35:45
So, it's not >> a non-fiction instructional manual. >> It's a story. Yes.
35:52
>> But it's about that or like Tolken, you know, it's one of those. Yeah.
35:57
>> So, are all of your fiction books about the war of art also?
36:03
>> I think they are in a way, you know, I mean, they're usually a lot of my books are military, right? Yeah.
36:08
>> So, there it's a literal war, but yeah, I think they all are about the war inside our head.
36:13
That's amazing because I always thought of them as really two whole different worlds that you operated in. >> Yeah.
36:22
One is about the inner war and the other is about outer wars. >> Yeah.
36:26
>> Which are the same thing.
36:27
>> Tell me about your years of working in New York at an ad agency.
36:32
>> It was my first job was as an office boy for $105 a week at Gray Advertising in New York.
36:39
I worked on the Revlon account, which was all cosmetics and and that kind of stuff.
36:44
And all of the copywriters on the account were were women and they were highly highly paid.
36:51
And I used to they'd hand me a sheet of paper and I would have to take it to the art director or something like that.
36:55
And as I would kind of walk down the hall, I'd look at the copy that they had written.
37:00
I said, "I can write this shit." You know?
37:01
So, I finally did become like a junior copywriter, but I never lasted more than a year.
37:09
I had like maybe four jobs.
37:11
The first one I had, I had a boss named Ed Hannibal.
37:14
I was like a junior junior copywriter and he wrote a novel that was an overnight hit. >> Wow.
37:23
>> And he quit and went on to write other novels.
37:25
And I thought, well, [ __ ] why don't I do that?
37:27
So, then I dropped out of that before I was anywhere.
37:29
And then after that I would like write novels that never got anywhere, never got published.
37:36
And I would go back to advertising, work, save money, and then move to someplace cheap, write for two years, run out of money, go back, that kind of thing.
37:46
I met a lot of great people in advertising cuz you got to be like a generalist.
37:51
You got to know a little bit about everything.
37:52
And there are a lot of really funny people and stuff like that.
37:56
And I learned a lot there, but I hated it.
37:58
I would be so depressed at the end of the day coming home from that that I had to like sit down at the keyboard and try to write something.
38:08
>> Had your boss [snorts] who wrote a novel and then quit, had that not happened in your life, do you think you still would have gone into writing novels?
38:18
>> I don't think I would have gone into writing novels.
38:22
>> And seeing the copy that was written is like I can do I see this copy I can do this. >> Yeah.
38:28
Based on those two examples, what would be the kind of places that would be helpful to put yourself to allow good things to happen?
38:37
I think people today think, well, let me get an MBA in marketing or something like that.
38:45
Whereas I think maybe to work in a coal mine to pick a bad example, but might be the best place. Yeah.
38:53
>> For that, >> get some hard job. >> Yeah. Something like that. So, >> experience life.
38:57
Yeah, like I drove tractor trailers for a while.
38:59
I learned more doing that than I learned doing anything else.
39:03
But now I want to ask you a question. Go.
39:07
>> I know there are a lot of young people out there that hear what you say or maybe what I say too and say, "Oh man, I wish I could find my thing like Rick has found his."
39:18
And they look into their head. They look around.
39:21
They go, "What is my calling? I just can't find.
39:24
There's nothing I really love. the world sucks.
39:27
It If you had to give someone like that, a young person like that advice, what would you say?
39:34
>> I would say make a lot of things. Try things.
39:39
>> And I would say what you're describing, I don't know any people like that.
39:41
I don't know any people who aren't interested in anything and don't like anything.
39:46
>> Most people I know like something, whatever it is, >> they like playing video games.
39:49
You know, make your own video game.
39:54
It usually starts with some sort of a passion not related to the idea of work first.
40:02
>> What are you passionate about?
40:02
Whatever it is, and try making things within that realm of what you're passionate about.
40:11
And pay attention to the feedback.
40:11
Not so much to listen to the feedback, but just to understand the world better.
40:17
If someone says, "I don't like it.
40:20
It'd be better if you did it like this.
40:25
I wouldn't take that as law. >> Uhhuh.
40:30
>> But it's interesting data in the picture. >> Yeah. Yeah.
40:34
>> If enough people don't like it, that even could be a reason to go further into it. >> Uhhuh.
40:39
>> It's not good and bad and like and don't like.
40:42
It's like where's the energy? Where's the charge? Where is it combustible?
40:50
Because the best things are like they have this power to them that seems more than what's holding it.
40:57
You know, you pick up two different books.
41:00
One is exploding with energy >> and one's dead.
41:06
They're made from the same materials.
41:08
They're both filled with words, but some have this like spark in them and when you read it, you feel it.
41:17
lean towards where the energy is, the excitement, the thing that makes you laugh, the thing that upsets you.
41:26
>> I would say I would add to that, go to the thing that scares you the most that if you failed at you would be crushed because that's what's really important to you. That shows you care. >> It shows you care.
41:40
>> Yeah, >> that's great.
41:42
>> Again, that's kind of the theory of resistance, right?
41:44
resistance is is scaring you cuz it wants you not to do that not to be a sculptor or not to whatever. >> Yeah.
41:56
>> The other thing I would say to to any young person is sometimes it takes a long time.
42:00
Took me till I was 52 before I really had a book published and till I really kind of found myself as a writer. Sometimes it takes time.
42:08
Other people fall into it right away and your first things are hits.
42:11
That's the other thing is that there's no right or wrong way to do any of these things.
42:17
>> Try things >> and then depending on what the outcome is, >> it gives you back feedback of how you want to try it the next time.
42:27
>> It's tough these days though.
42:27
You know, I think it was a lot easier for us.
42:28
You could afford an apartment.
42:30
you could come to go move to New York or some place like that and and you didn't have to have four roommates and live in my heart goes out to young people that are struggling right now.
42:41
>> But I feel like you can make things wherever you are. >> That's true. You can make a movie. You can make a record.
42:47
>> You can make anything. >> Yeah.
42:48
Which is scary, too, because now there's a 10,000 people doing it. >> Yeah. I take it as a positive.
42:54
>> I think you're more optimistic than I am, Rick, as a general rule.
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LM NT tell me about the connections between the legend of Bagger Vance and the Bagavad Gita.
44:44
>> The legend of Bagger Vance was a ripoff.
44:47
I ripped off the Bavad Gita. What is the Bavaria?
44:50
Bagavad Gita is been called the Hindu Bible.
44:52
Gandhi supposedly used its principles to free India and the story of the Bhagavad Gita is essentially a mentor protegge story where the great warrior Arjuna on the eve of a great battle with chariots and that kind of ancient times receives spiritual instruction from his charioteer who happens to be Krishna.
45:15
In other words, God in human form.
45:18
And he teaches Arjuna about karma, yoga, duality, non-duality, previous lives, all all that sort of thing.
45:32
So I just sort of transposed it.
45:35
Instead of a warrior and a charioteer, it's a golfer and his caddy.
45:38
And I love the idea that it was a servant.
45:40
that when God appears in human form, he doesn't appear as a king or a mighty war. He appears as a servant.
45:49
Like Jesus was a man of sorrows, right?
45:51
And so I just kind of loved that idea and I wasn't a big fan of the movie, but the book I liked.
46:00
>> Did it start with the Bhagavad Gita right from the beginning?
46:02
It was always >> I'm going to modernize the Bavad Gita in today's world in a new context.
46:10
>> I mean, you were asking me before if I stole from things, right?
46:11
And I told you about that impedacles quote. >> Yeah.
46:15
>> The Gita was that too.
46:15
I read it like 50 times in all different translations.
46:17
I and I just always loved it and it was always beyond me.
46:21
I never could quite understand it and I just thought there's something here.
46:25
Something I don't know what it is.
46:26
But that was a that was a book to me that was total the muse totally seized me.
46:33
I hardly revised it once.
46:36
You know, I think I changed like one paragraph in the whole book. Wow.
46:39
It just sort of just came fast. So it was a mystery.
46:46
>> Do you know how it got to the golf aspect of it?
46:48
Where did that come from? >> I grew up as a cat. >> Okay.
46:53
>> So So that was sort of Yeah. I don't know.
46:55
But I don't know how that connection happened. It happened.
46:58
>> No, but it was you had a personal connection to that. So that made sense. It's >> Yeah.
47:03
>> A world you're experienced in.
47:06
>> Did [snorts] you have any other considerations before golf?
47:07
Could it have been in a different that was it >> right from the beginning it was this combination. >> Yeah.
47:14
And I thought when I had the idea >> that it was a completely dumb idea, totally unccommercial.
47:20
I thought I am crazy to be doing this because nobody's going to be interested in this except me.
47:28
>> And in fact, when I pitched it to my agent, my screenplay agent, he fired me.
47:33
He basically said a client. This is Yeah. He says a client. And he was right.
47:37
He said, "You know, I've been working for years to try to get you into the business.
47:40
Now you're going to drop out for a year, write this thing.
47:42
You know, they forget you in Hollywood in two weeks."
47:46
So, he thought it was really stupid, too.
47:48
And he was actually an enthusiastic golfer. He loved golf.
47:50
But he thought, "This is just a dumb idea." So, I I did, too.
47:54
This is kind of like when I talk about self-doubt.
47:57
But yet, I was seized to absolutely do it.
47:59
And to my amazement, it sold right away.
48:02
What do you attribute it selling right away to? >> I don't know.
48:08
Maybe I just had so much bad luck for the previous 52 years of my life that maybe it all kind of f finally the penny came up heads, you know, because like it really was uh my editor happened to be sitting on a plane next to Jake Eds who is a producer of Gandhi, Chariots of Fire, The Mission, a lot of things.
48:32
And he said, "I got a book. We want to read it."
48:33
And Jake optioned it immediately and his partner in the Sundance catalog was Robert Redford.
48:38
So he immediately the whole thing came together like that. >> Crazy.
48:44
>> So nothing has come together like that since before or since.
48:46
I feel like your work has a air of ancient story attached to it.
48:54
You write new stories, but there's some relevance to the past in what you do. >> Definitely. Yeah.
49:04
Well, you know that I believe in the muse.
49:06
That's the way I sort of imagine where stories and ideas come from.
49:13
Now, you believe in what you call source. >> Yes. >> With a capital S.
49:17
And I'm wondering, can you tell me how you perceive that? What is source? And what does it do?
49:28
>> Source is a universal intelligence or wisdom that knows all, sees all, and is available to all to access.
49:39
Some people are better at accessing it than others.
49:43
And there are things you can do to develop your ability to access it. >> Uhhuh.
49:50
>> You could also, some people would call it God.
49:53
>> Sometimes I call it God. Uh-huh.
49:54
>> I both think you can call it God and you don't have to.
49:57
And it's still this why do things grow? Why are there seasons?
50:03
How does how does the natural world work?
50:07
>> That's all source >> information making all that happen. >> Uhhuh.
50:12
>> Source intelligence I'll call it.
50:14
>> Does source have an intention?
50:14
Is it trying to produce or something?
50:22
It's a living generative force.
50:22
It is pregnant with the new. >> Uhhuh.
50:28
So it it's it's it's evolving or it's it's facilitating evolution in some way.
50:35
Cuz if something's new, it would have to be evolving, right? >> Could be.
50:41
Or it also could just be starting from scratch like >> Uhhuh.
50:44
>> you know, we don't know that.
50:45
>> Ah, and I suppose that's true, too. Uhhuh.
50:49
How do you perceive your own role when you're working with a band or a group?
50:57
How does that connect to source? What do you provide? What are you doing?
51:02
>> I'm a vehicle for source.
51:04
>> Ah, >> so I'm open and I don't have any ideas of my own. I'm blank. I have no say.
51:12
And when something strikes me, I feel in my body this energetic pulling forward of interest, I'm the one feeling it.
51:21
But the reason I'm feeling it is because of source.
51:26
Now let's say we have a a group, a band that comes into Shangria. >> Yeah.
51:32
>> And let's say they have not yet evolved whatever it album or whatever it is they're hoping to do.
51:40
So you say you're a vehicle for source, but they're obviously a vehicle, too.
51:44
It's going to come out of that. >> Absolutely.
51:46
>> So how how does that collaboration work?
51:51
>> I'll think of an example from recently, New Strokes album.
51:52
And on that album, there were some snippets of song ideas.
52:00
Sometimes it would be a riff, a little jam on a riff.
52:03
Sometimes it would have more than one part.
52:05
Sometimes it would be an A part and a B part, >> but they weren't full songs.
52:08
They were just little snippets of ideas.
52:13
>> So they would play those ideas and just see where it goes.
52:18
We wouldn't think about it. We wouldn't discuss it.
52:19
We wouldn't say try to do this.
52:21
We didn't try to do anything.
52:21
Just play and let it keep going and then notice what happens.
52:26
See if anything interesting showed up.
52:29
interesting showed up. Or I can think in one particular case there was a suggestion of a song that there was only one part and the normal way to go about that would be okay what are going to be the other parts that would be the first thing you do is like we have this part is this a verse or a
52:48
chorus what's the part that would go with it is there going to be a third part is there going to be a fourth part an outro or an intro or some other part and for some reason again not because I've ever said this before it just seemed obvious to me when they played it for a little while. It's like, what
53:02
It's like, what would happen if there are no other parts?
53:04
It's just going to be this part.
53:07
And the only thing that changes is the intensity of playing it.
53:09
So, when you start playing it, it's quiet and by the end, it's really loud.
53:13
And the vocals follow that same energy pattern.
53:16
So, it's not songlike structure.
53:19
It's more like a an energetic ride.
53:22
And we tried that and it turned out really good. Everybody liked it.
53:28
But we'd never I'd never done that before.
53:30
They'd never done it before.
53:32
It was just in the moment something to try.
53:33
And it could have also gone bad.
53:35
And that happens all the time, too, where >> let's try it like this. Like that didn't work. You never know.
53:43
>> So there's real element of play to this. Absolutely. Isn't there? >> Yeah. It's all play.
53:47
It's all experimentation play.
53:49
It's never I know how we're going to do it. It's never that.
53:54
that. there may be I have an idea of what we can try to start but it's only ever a possible way in and then the feedback that you get from that first experiment tells you louder softer faster slower left right >> abort the mission >> so it's always so it's always new to you then always
54:16
>> it's always a different problem that you've never solved before >> yeah or sometimes I mean I've been doing it for a long time now so sometimes something comes up, it's like, hm, this reminds me of something that happened 25 years ago and how we did it that way that time was this. >> Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. >> You want to try this? This might be helpful.
54:35
>> But never assume that that's the way.
54:37
It's just anyone who has an inclination of something to try, we try it.
54:44
>> We never judge an idea based on saying the idea.
54:47
We always judge an idea based on, we'll play it and let's see what it sounds like.
54:51
And then when you hear it, you either like it or you don't.
54:55
>> Or you like it but realize there's an even better way. >> Mhm.
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57:20
When I was working as a screenwriter, I I worked with a partner, a guy named Ron Shuset, who was the original did the original Alien with his partner Dan Oanner.
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you know, he thought of himself as a genius, and in a way I think he was a genius.
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And kind of the way it would work, I was like the junior partner of this thing.
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He was an established guy and I was a newcomer was a lot of times I would throw like 10 ideas at him and he would pick the one and he was right almost all the time and I would sort of and I still can't answer this. I would kind of marvel.
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It sounds in other words, it sounds like what you do or something.
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I was wonder how did he know? >> Well, he didn't know. He didn't know.
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But there was something in him that felt a different energetic charge >> to that information.
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It's the same as when you write something, do you ever have the experience of thinking, "Oh, that's really good." >> Yes.
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>> It's that and it's not necessarily intellectual. It's some other thing. >> It's just taste.
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You just feel it somehow. >> Yeah.
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Do you think everybody can feel it or are you someone special that can? >> I think no.
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I think everyone can feel it.
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So much of our world pushes down our ability to feel it.
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>> What's the conventional response to this?
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>> None of this has to do with convention.
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Art and convention don't go together.
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There's a freedom in the art that happens that is always bucking convention.
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That's what makes it interesting.
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>> So, I would say I practiced at it, >> but I support people practicing it as much as they possibly can in all aspects of their life because that's another part of it.
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It's like it's hard to contain it just to the art world.
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It's like you're either living your life knowing nothing is impossible, which is the way that an artist sees the world, or you live in a conventional world of dos and don'ts and watch out for that and this is dangerous.
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>> Those established stories, they're not there to help us.
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They're there to hold us down as artists.
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How did you evolve to this place where you were where you were always as a little kid were you always thinking in this way?
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>> I learned most of being able to talk about it through writing the book before before writing the book.
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I didn't understand any of it.
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It was still instinctually the way I operated >> but I didn't understand any of it.
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Ah, >> and only through >> writing the book.
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And >> years of trying to understand what happens. How does it work? >> Uhhuh.
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>> That I got to be able to talk about it in the way that I can.
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>> How long did it take you to write the book?
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The creative act we're talking about. >> Eight years. >> Eight years. Wow.
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Obviously, it wasn't steadily for eight years.
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It was in bits and pieces. Is that how it evolved?
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years of different stages of, you know, collecting ideas, trying to understand them, >> trying to refine the way to once I could say it at all, then trying to refine the way to say it.
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>> And there were big times where it it would just hit an impass of like, okay, >> I have a thousand pages of really interesting material, >> but it has no beginning or end, and it's impenetrable for anyone other than me to look at.
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And there were probably two years where it was just in this sort of dead state. I reached out to you. It's like, what do I do? You know, what do I do? I don't know what to do. >> Yeah.
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>> And there was a possibility that it would never happen.
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Now, I didn't I wouldn't say I quit on it.
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I just don't know that I would ever find the way in, >> you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I don't know.
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And then eventually a series of events cracked windows in how to present it. >> Uhhuh.
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What were you trying to accomplish when you write it?
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Were you trying to express, give, give a gift to people that were >> I wanted to share the information of how good things happen in the recording studio.
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And I quickly realized it's not just the recording studio.
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Like the recording studio is where I >> practice it most often, but it's a way of looking at the world.
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So it applies outside of music.
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It's not about music at all really.
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I work in music, but the practice is not about music at all.
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>> And as I said before, were you always like that, Rick, even as a little kid, or did this evolve at a certain >> Well, I will say when I was 14, I learned to meditate, and most of the other kids I went to school with took drugs and drank >> and I meditated.
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And I have a feeling that may have something to do with it. But I don't know.
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I can't I can't say for sure.
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>> But I do know in meditation I got much more grounded in myself.
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And through that when I really like something or don't like something or hear something that everyone agrees with, I'm comfortable not agreeing.
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You know, I'm comfortable >> being an outcast essentially.
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And I've felt that way my whole life.
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>> I'm trying to imagine myself as like if I'm a member of a group and I'm coming here to Shangrilad, you're going to work with us, right? >> Yeah.
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>> And tell me if this is at all what what it is.
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I've heard it said that like a movie director working with an actor that the best thing that he or she could do is to make create an environment where the actor feels safe that they can really let it out in their performance and not feel like anybody's going to laugh at them or anything like that.
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Is that kind of what you do?
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It's definitely one of the aspects is creating the space where you can feel like you can be naked and it's safe and free.
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There are no boundaries and truly judgmentfree zone which is also odd.
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It's a judgment free zone yet a lot of the time my job is to be critical. >> Yeah.
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So, it's like walking that line of like how do we have this totally free zone where anything can happen and be able to talk about h >> this seemed to work better than this. >> What do you think?
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>> How do you create that that safety for a group?
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I'm quite sure you will just tell them that.
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>> One of the first things I think is that there are no additional people around. There's no audience.
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There's usually the artist, me, and a technical person.
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And the technical person usually doesn't say anything. >> Uhhuh.
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>> And I usually draw out the artist through conversation, asking them, you know, what's this about?
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>> How how long would you be working with a group?
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>> It could be days, it could be months, it could be years. >> Wow. Uhhuh. >> There's no right way.
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And for each artist, it's also different.
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Some artists need a lot of notes and information from me and some need practically none. And I'm fine with that.
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If I don't say a word, if it's coming out well and if they don't need more than me sitting in the room and allowing it to happen, >> I'm fine with that.
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>> Now, I know you've said that like talking to a band, you say, "Don't try to write the music that you think is going to be a hit." Yeah.
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Or don't think about that.
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>> Just do what you love. >> Yeah.
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>> Which is sort of the same as acting without attachment to the outcome. >> Yes.
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>> Can you talk about that a little bit? >> Yeah.
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No one knows what a hit sounds like.
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If I ask you what a hit sounds like, you could only give me a reference from the past of what a hit sounds like.
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>> So if if you have the job, I want to write a hit.
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What's my reference point?
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something from the past, it'll somehow be a derivative work.
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>> It's not so interesting.
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Usually, the one that was a hit last time was not a derivative work.
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So, I don't think you get to it by aiming at it.
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Somewhere at some point in time, someone made something true to themselves and that became a hit. Mhm.
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Over the course of my career, all the things I made that were successful, I never considered hit, radio, sales, any of those things ever. Not for a second.
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I always thought about what's the thing I want to hear.
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What's the thing I'm excited to play for a friend? That's it.
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I have a friend with good taste.
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I can't wait till he hears this. >> That's it.
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And when it gets to the point where I'm excited to play it for a friend with good taste, it's ready to share with the world. Uh-huh. >> It's done. That part happens fast. And that's a new thing.
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I didn't always know that.
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I used to >> maybe think and maybe even overthink things that were good for a long time.
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Is it the very best version it could ever be?
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Is there anything else we could ever possibly do? >> Mhm.
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And you decided against that like it's comes quicker than that. >> Comes faster.
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Once it sounds good, we're in a safe zone.
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And then any additional things we want to try are fine.
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>> But we always have to AB it back with the first time it sounded good to us and make sure it's better than that. >> Uhhuh.
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>> Do you know what I'm saying?
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>> And sometimes it's not.
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And sometimes with the records I make, we don't know we're making an album when it's happening, we're preparing to make an album, >> but then when we go to make the album, it's not as good as the preparation.
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>> So then in those cases, the preparation is the album.
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>> Ah, that's interesting. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
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I was talking to friend of mine, Frank Oz. Yeah.
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>> And he was saying how in his role as a director >> and he was saying that >> if a script a movie script might go through 14 17 drafts he'll sometimes say let me look at the first draft and then that will be the one. Right. >> Yeah.
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>> And it's it's certainly a phenomenon we've all >> experienced. Right.
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You catch lightning in the bottle and you try to make it better and better and it just doesn't happen like that. >> Yeah.
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And sometimes it's like a house of cards where you catch lightning in a bottle.
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You might even think, "Oh, it's pretty good."
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I imagine it's going to be really great when it's done.
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>> And then any little change you do, anything you try, the whole thing crumbles. >> Yeah.
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>> Let me get to a deeper question on the subject of source, which I'm really interested in.
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Rick, >> what does source imply about the nature of the universe?
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I know what I would answer in my concept of the muse, but I want to hear what you would say.
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>> Well, I think source supplies everything, light and dark. >> Uhhuh.
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>> It's a it's universal.
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I believe like anyone who creates anything.
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We're making it with a good intention.
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We all are doing our best in reflection of source.
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>> Tell me about your spiritual life.
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It's based around writings.
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The concept like I I believe in the goddess.
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I believe that things come from another dimension of reality and that here on the material plane we're stuck in our ego. No good.
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And that writing has taught me to respect and to invoke the higher plane where the ideas come from.
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And that higher plane is the plane of the soul or the plane of the self.
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And I think that it's our job here in this material plane to live according to those laws.
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The laws of the higher level.
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Not that I can do that, but art or creating art or writing is a great discipline.
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That's my that's my spiritual discipline. >> Beautiful.
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And where do you think your interest in ancient things comes from?
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>> Wow, that's a great question.
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I'm not even sure, but boy, I have it, you know.
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Yeah, >> I'm at home back there, particularly in ancient Greece, maybe previous lives, something like that probably.
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But also, I think that was a better world.
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It had its own corruption, but it's not as corrupted as the modern modern world is.
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And I think when you read you read Homer, you read Thusidities, you read Zenapon, you read Plato, any of those people, at least to me, it's like pure mountain spring water.
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There's no existentialism. It's not jaded.
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And they believed in in God, in the gods. Yeah.
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I'm still I don't know I can put my finger on why it appeals to me, but it really like for one thing like in Gates of Fire about the 300 Spartans at Themopoly, I wanted to write about honor, but you cannot write a book said in the modern world about honor cuz there is none.
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They'd laugh you out of the room if a character said something.
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But if you go back to the ancient Spartans and they talk about honor, they can do it with an absolute straight face and the reader can relate to it.
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And I think that people today who are hungry for something about honor, they immediately glom onto those characters and go, whether they say this or not, boy, I wish I was back there and I could be one of those guys.
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>> Have you ever been to Greece? >> Yeah.
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Tell me about the experience of walking around there considering your interests. What's it like?
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>> Well, like when I went to Deli, the Oracle of Apollo, a lot of tourists, that kind of thing.
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It's kind of out in the country, you know, it's it's a mountainous sort of region where the priestesses used to go down into a cliff in the earth where vapors were coming up and they would be kind of get high on that and they would.
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And I definitely felt when I was there that those gods are still alive, you know, and Apollo is still here. He hasn't gone away.
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And sometimes, you know, I I have a lot of fans in Greece.
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They'll write to me sometimes and say, "We're so screwed up today.
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You know, what what what do we need to do?"
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And I answer, I say, "Forgive me. Go back to those gods. Forget Christianity.
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That was like the worst thing that ever happened to Greece."
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I mean, Apollo, Zeus, they're there.
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But also all of those places have a kind of a magic to me like the Olympic stadium. There it is. It's it's grass. It's not a >> Yeah.
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>> But just to think of the stuff that happened there >> and you can feel the presence when you're there.
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>> You can definitely feel the presence there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
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And the weird part is that the Greeks don't really value that as much as like us Americans.
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If you go to Gettysburg, they've got it's like a you know Disneyland, right?
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I mean, if they've got Pickicket's charge was here and the people will tell you.
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Whereas you go to Thermopoly, it's like there's a private owner owns the, you know, owns the land. It's a farmer. He's farming the land. I went to Marathon.
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They have the uh big mound where all of the bodies are are still there from that battle.
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And the place was empty except for a little kiosk with a lady sitting in there.
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And I came up and I said, "Do I need to pay?" She just go in.
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Of course, the Acropolis and all that sort of stuff, they that they [music] take seriously, but a lot of the stuff, I guess, it's so present to them that they don't even think about it. [music] Tiff gravity.
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