0:00
I'm so happy that you're here and I get to get to have a conversation with you. >> Means a lot. I'm a fan. Means a lot to me.
Search this video
0:04
me. But, you know, you were like one of the busiest artists around right now who's the least outside of any artist around right now, which is kind of I don't know whether that that even consciously feels like um
0:17
victory's the wrong word, but but that it worked, that the idea of being able to move as and when you want to move and do what you want to do and and and not necessarily be um have to adapt to situations that don't come naturally is kind of working. I think everything's just changing and I
0:31
I think everything's just changing and I think it's pretty intuitive.
0:33
Um I think even like you know, meeting people's changing.
0:39
It's all happening really fast or really organically and like accidentally.
0:40
Then you wind up in a room.
0:44
It's like, yeah, I don't know.
0:46
I think it's been pretty easy, to be honest.
0:50
>> pretty well, but but then again in terms >> of you know, just staying staying pretty chill, you know. Yeah.
0:57
But but I know that it's not that's not the whole picture. Yeah.
1:00
When I listen to the music, I I can hear it and everyone can hear um the beautiful tussle that you have going on inside of it, how you get how you how you get to a place where you're satisfied. Yeah.
1:11
And um I'm going to ask a super super honest obvious question from an honest place, but it's a good place I think to start, which is like, if you can find words to describe like how you know when something is kind of done for you.
1:24
Cuz it ain't verse chorus verse chorus middle eight verse chorus and yet when I get we all get familiar with it, it feels like Yeah.
1:29
Like I want music to feel like this, but it must feel like you're an astronaut at times trying to figure it out.
1:34
Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think I've still figured out when something's done, but with this record, I knew when it wasn't good.
1:45
Like So, how'd that feel? Bad.
1:46
It felt really bad cuz I didn't know >> Almost physically bad, right?
1:49
Almost like my skin's crawling. I can't deal with it.
1:52
It's it's like physiological.
1:54
You just know when something's like wrong. Um Yeah. Yeah.
1:57
I think after a certain point you start to I started to ask a lot of friends.
2:00
Um The record was kind of as isolated as it could be with the help of a few key characters, but you start to asking around being like, is there anything else I can do to this?
2:09
Well, also those people involved that you've been with for a while and so there's a comfort level there, which is great, but equally like, am I too comfortable? Yeah.
2:17
It's like, is it is it too familiar?
2:19
You start asking, you know, I ask my wife a lot, is it good?
2:23
Yeah, but it's just I just still don't know.
2:24
Once you decide it's done, I'm very aware of what I would change now or how I would change it.
2:31
Um but really I think I was just moving past the feeling of it not feeling interesting or good.
2:36
There were some versions of the songs that I think maybe they they were born better.
2:40
They were born um I think a little more functionally, but something just felt off.
2:44
So, that's a new thing that I'm wrestling with. I don't have like Mhm.
2:46
I don't have an understanding of the end, but I know that now I'm navigating I'm navigating something.
2:54
Something that's like, yeah, this doesn't feel good, doesn't feel good.
2:56
I started listening to some of the older demos the other day. Oh, brave.
2:59
And they're kind of amazing. It's tough.
3:01
I can't They're actually pretty sick.
3:02
And they're so far from what some of these actually ended up being.
3:06
>> More reduced in a lot of ways.
3:06
Yeah, but also more like just more obvious.
3:10
Like there were chord passages, there's like there's harmony that that works.
3:16
>> See, I want to talk about this because Brian Eno said something to me really interesting, which was that, you know, the creator's the um uh inclination is to keep creating, whereas the listener's desire is to hear something in its kind of most pure and simple form a lot of the times, right?
3:26
And so the the the perfect balance is where you feel satiated as a creative and we feel like we can connect to it in a way that makes sense to us. That's the sweet spot.
3:33
Um you had these songs that were kind of sitting in this place where they knew each other and then you were like, yeah, but I don't know you, so I have to break you apart and I'm just going to break your heart to do it.
3:43
Like talking to the songs.
3:45
It's going to break your heart to do it. I got to do this. >> Yeah.
3:47
It's tough to go back and listen to those again cuz they're just like, we were okay. >> Yeah, yeah.
3:51
No, they were totally fine.
3:53
Maybe a little bit too quiet or something.
3:54
Um Yeah, it's just yeah, it's it's it's weird cuz I thought that um I thought going back would be like pretty atrocious.
4:02
It's I mean they're I think sonically a lot worse, but they make a lot of sense, but for some reason, yeah, like you said, they did they didn't they didn't quite know each other um the songs.
4:11
They knew their small little brief little outfits, what they were wearing, but they didn't know how to interact.
4:18
>> It really is listening to it, too, and it's funny, you know, I've been reading the reviews and they're beautiful and a lot of people really have given a lot to writing.
4:24
It's great when you really when you realize the journalism is really invested in their in what they're writing about. >> Sure. Yeah.
4:28
And it's not just the fourth album the third day of the week.
4:30
People really wanted to do justice to this record, I think.
4:33
They recognized the effort you put into it and what you were what you would achieved in creating it and and so do I and so do we all.
4:38
Um But the one thing that really struck me, which was interesting, was how much people talked about um the innovation of it the in the sound of it, whereas to me and I'm not trying to separate myself from the wider pack, but it didn't feel like you were on Mars Yeah. at all. Yeah.
4:55
Like I'm like, cuz there's some reverb on it and maybe the snare's a little distorted and stressed and maybe you've you know, chucked some like Tribe Called Quest samples in there, but it, that's cool.
5:04
>> I think yeah, um it's a discussion that we've I mean Did it so I guess the question is did it surprise you surprise you the way it was perceived as this like breakaway? Sure.
5:13
I think that there was um Yeah, it did because it is pretty familiar. I think.
5:18
There's a um and the whole thing is just trying to be like the Dust Brothers or something.
5:24
>> going to say the beat at the end of baby is literally like some 90s backpack >> Yeah.
5:27
It's just like trying to do it do justice to um Yeah, like the Beastie Boys and Quasimoto and Um I think that there's a couple layers maybe that work or don't work depending on what your perspective is that day, but I think that the strangeness is the person.
5:42
That was that was the hardest thing.
5:45
It's like trying to figure out who is singing. Mhm.
5:48
I think that the palette's pretty clean. It's pretty clear. Pretty linear. >> Yeah. Yeah.
5:53
It's just like a person who's kind of bored.
5:54
I think that that's the the main thing.
5:57
It's just moving up and down and trying to get away from a computer.
6:01
That's the the whole thing. Get off the grid. So, that that was it.
6:03
It was just trying to figure out how to do fades, volume fades and without actually pencil mouse >> automation and all that other stuff.
6:12
This stuff sounds horrible.
6:12
It's it's it's really part of the the the true evolutionary spirit of technology into into the human experience, which is like, it's a tool. Yeah.
6:20
But you realized early on, it's just a tool.
6:22
Tom figured it out, it's just a tool. Frank, you.
6:27
It's like doesn't have to do all the work. >> Yeah.
6:29
I think it should should do zero of the work.
6:32
It's just like maintenance, I think. Yeah. It's like tape, right?
6:36
Yeah, I think that the the sonic space though, it's cool that people maybe it's just also the There's like genre hang-ups I think people have.
6:45
>> They still have you in R&B, you know that, right? >> cool.
6:47
I think it's the best thing ever, but if there are genre hang-ups where I think you can look at it differently and it it seems more um I think maybe it seems more absurd than it should be.
6:57
I listen to Jodeci, it's like the weirdest music ever.
6:59
>> It's hard to listen to.
6:59
The chord changes are the strangest ever. >> loud.
7:02
And like, you know, even the first person to ever go octave change the way they did that Yeah, yeah.
7:06
It's just like so cool, but it's so odd.
7:08
And all that stuff is like so loud and so like kind of punishing.
7:12
Like the information is like punishing.
7:14
Yeah, go back and listen to like one of like like Aaliyah and the the snare is like will beat the out of you.
7:20
>> Really bright and so it's interesting. Um Yeah, I don't know.
7:24
I think it's pretty straight.
7:24
Then I I left off a couple things that were like pure evil. Just madness.
7:28
And it just didn't really make any sense. Seemed pretty cynical. Oh, interesting.
7:32
Why why why why would you use the word cynical?
7:36
What's thing back to making that decision based on a on a lack of not wanting to be cynical? Yeah.
7:42
I think that I started the record with um with like rage.
7:48
There was just something about like the reliability of everybody in music.
7:51
There's just the there's like a gospel to everybody's narrative sonically. >> Mhm. Okay, yeah. interesting to me.
7:59
So, at first I started the record with so much like it was just bang, it was just punishing.
8:06
Um The sonic character sort of remained similar, but the songs that I started choosing and through the help of like Andrew Sarlo who helped me with the record quite a bit.
8:14
We both kind of talked about it.
8:16
We're like, you know, I do have a kid and my life isn't as angry.
8:19
My my you know, the occasional misunderstanding of my role in music can can get you a little bit jaded.
8:28
My life isn't that angry.
8:28
So, I was trying to find this new narrative throughout it.
8:31
We had a couple truly experimental pieces.
8:34
Some stuff that I really love.
8:37
But you know, on the whiteboard, as we listened to it, there were moments where we would get supercharged cuz it felt very very new.
8:45
But also felt very bleak.
8:45
Um and I think that that's been the challenge that was the challenge of the record is is how do you introduce a little bit of unreliability or a little volatility with your narrator, but his world is ultimately quite optimistic.
8:58
Um You had to discover that in process cuz you were having a short-term tantrum. >> Yes.
9:03
Yeah, I was having like three of them you know, over the course of 2 years.
9:06
Um Just I you know, just trying to also there's so much >> Is is some of that a kind of genius off up more than anything because at the end of the day, right, people are going to make what they want to make.
9:14
You don't have to listen to it.
9:15
It's fine to rage against it and we all do.
9:17
But surely part of that is I'd imagine maybe part of that is you just getting into the actually getting into the boxing ring. >> Exactly.
9:25
I think that's a good way to put it.
9:26
It's not an indictment of other things.
9:28
I think it was getting into the ring and realizing what I didn't recognize or what I didn't what didn't work for me.
9:33
And that started to get frustrating.
9:35
Um I talked to a friend the other day and I was like the hardest thing is actually just the way it sounds.
9:41
Sometimes you just can't make it sound good.
9:42
And then you look at everything else and you want to blame everything else.
9:45
Um but really it's just you in the ring trying to figure out where you where you fit.
9:48
But I noticed like harmony, chords I had to start stripping away.
9:53
They just started to feel unfamiliar um to the the person.
9:57
So Yeah, that's a good way to put it though.
9:59
In the ring, you start to realize like I didn't do my cardio here.
10:04
I didn't do my Well, also I'm just not in the headspace cuz I'm not pissed off.
10:08
If I'm going to get in there, I I need to have something that I'm fighting it. Where's my you juice? >> Yeah, yeah.
10:12
And it's got to be inward, I think.
10:14
It's got to be all looking in, I think. That's the juice.
10:17
But it's been such an interesting process even just to get to making another album like baby because absolutely, you know, as a record comes out and then you completely sort of reinvent the the the energy of it by by by capturing that beautiful moment on set.
10:28
Um which I think I read somewhere or heard somewhere in a conversation you said that you felt like there were some songs that even felt came out better, you know, but so it was almost like the album was a step towards the actual film.
10:38
Kind of almost a reverse approach to creative releasing an album where the where the film is supposed to promote the album, but it feels like in a way to the album promoted the film. >> Yes.
10:46
Does that Is that how it felt to you a bit?
10:48
Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
10:49
I think um There's just speed, too.
10:52
It's just we live in a different time.
10:53
So I think we were learning how to do We were learning what the um the other parameters are with music now. It's not just records.
11:00
Um but you don't know that when you're making a thing, especially during the pandemic, you you know, we were all kind of in a house. It was pretty accurate.
11:07
It's pretty like lore accurate, sort of. But you don't know.
11:11
And then you you know, you tweak you tweak.
11:14
Um the video idea came about and almost instantly.
11:17
The performances were better, the arrangements were better.
11:19
>> know each other better as well cuz people don't really I I don't think that you and Michael aka McGee kind of met and got to work straight away. >> Almost like that day.
11:26
Yeah, with when we did Big Mike and Rodeo Clown. It was that day.
11:29
So the so the the chemistry we're seeing in the in the film is like the friendship in real life as opposed to just the creative chemistry. >> Yes.
11:36
It's like a euphoric um discovery of I think someone who understands something.
11:40
Cuz that's the joy of it, man.
11:42
It's I love watching you perform because I cuz I feel like I'm never going to see that performance ever again. >> Sure.
11:49
It's there's nothing performative about it even though you're performing out of yourself. >> Yeah.
11:53
I think it's just cuz I started performing so late.
11:54
That was kind of the first time I'd ever really you know, I'd toured a little bit, done a few shows.
12:01
That was really the first time I'd ever like on camera, you know, got to work the angle out.
12:07
So I've never really I've never beaten the muscle.
12:09
I've I there's nothing to beat.
12:11
It's all new every time I go on the stage. It's it's a freak show.
12:14
I don't I don't have like a thing to fall back on as opposed to so many friends who were in the band or they've been touring.
12:20
And like even Mike has been playing in front of people since he was a kid.
12:24
So it is this interesting interplay where it is really new for me.
12:25
Did you have to untangle that from him as well when he got into your particular space?
12:30
Were you able to coax different sides of each other out? >> so.
12:33
I think so, but it was all super not conscious, I don't think. >> Yeah.
12:37
Um you we both kind of met with a series of I think skills and ideas.
12:44
And I we didn't really talk that much during that entire process.
12:46
We would kind of be around each other all day, but we didn't speak that much.
12:48
I think there was a very there was like a a a a comfort, I think, where we were like, "Look, we're just I don't know, we're just speaking so We didn't even have the language, but we're speaking something that I think we can jot down later as this new logic form.
13:03
But for now it just felt very comfortable and cozy cuz we'd both been making music for a while by that time.
13:08
But you'd been making music on your own.
13:09
I can imagine hearing someone play chords that actually bring an earthiness and a sense of grounding to your songs and unpredictability, but also a sense of comfort like I know this sound.
13:18
Must have been must have been really a kind of a great unlocking for you.
13:22
Yeah, there was also like a fun um battle that I think we were having.
13:26
>> Yeah, I heard you say that like there's a little competitive nature.
13:27
People don't talk enough about the competitive nature of creativity.
13:30
Yeah, I think it's just maybe cuz we're too too stoked.
13:34
I don't know, but this was like a this it was a strange time, the the pandemic.
13:38
So I think we were both relieved, but also excited to sort of fight.
13:43
It really felt like that. Yeah.
13:45
But it was also this humbling thing, too, of being like you sort of write yourself into boxes.
13:48
And then when I heard, you know, even just a little bit of a different thing, but something that wasn't self-conscious, it made me write faster.
13:56
It made me write differently and that was a humbling thing where it's like, "I want it to be at the driver's seat every second of everything."
14:03
But sometimes you hear it and you're like, "I just couldn't do it."
14:05
Or I couldn't conceive of it.
14:07
And so your brain's, you know, switches and you start writing differently and faster or there's like a new impulse that you're that you're following as opposed to sort of trying to deconstruct your own ideas, your own voice. It becomes exhausting. Yeah.
14:22
That was the gift, you know, the the competitiveness, but also the the realization that there's a different there's different modes when you start sharing the space.
14:33
There's different there's different personalities you can try on.
14:37
And digging them out of yourself isn't isn't always easy.
14:40
It becomes a little bit performative.
14:42
Yeah, it becomes performative and less is collaborative because then it's not just you.
14:47
It's not just your version of yourself trying to undo the old version of yourself.
14:50
It's like someone's doing that instinctively.
14:54
>> And you look at it like a kid.
14:54
You know, you see yourself like a kid suddenly.
14:55
Um It's it's very valuable.
14:59
I think to meet friends who kind of do that.
15:01
Um Yeah, it's hard to find them.
15:03
The way that you um characterize your emotions in your songs is just so literal and so beautiful.
15:12
You know, like uh I dare anybody I mean this might sound trite, but I dare anyone who's in a relationship with anyone to not listen to your records and feel a little bit more grateful at times.
15:22
And I really admire that about your writing.
15:23
Like I can imagine I'm just talking about it now because so often we try to shield that. >> Mhm.
15:29
There's a fear that just inherently gets in the way.
15:32
I don't know if it's a question or maybe just we're just back back and forth on it, but did that just come naturally to you?
15:37
Was there a moment when you took a look at your life and realized like trying to protect the people in my life from how I feel in my music is not going to serve my music.
15:47
Like most people who are in love with somebody will probably come up with a different name or figure it out.
15:53
>> And you were just like, "Fuck that." Yeah.
15:55
I got the I got the I got the permission when we did it.
15:59
That's how you know you're with a real one, right?
16:00
Because she's like right from your heart. >> Yeah. It was also phonetic. I won't lie.
16:04
It's why it went from It was a very good phonetic. It was phonetic. It was very good.
16:08
>> was like Marjorie or >> Exactly.
16:09
I was going to say Marjorie or yeah, Margaret. It would be so hard. >> Hard, right? >> Yeah. Far from it, Margaret.
16:16
You know, there's also there was a little bit of a there's jokes in it, too.
16:19
Yeah, there's some funny in your songs.
16:21
There's like a Roxanne or Uh all these different names.
16:26
Like I like the idea of once I cuz I don't write um I've never written. If that makes any sense. Mhm.
16:35
So when I kind of landed on that this is a declaration and it you know, the name comes out, it feels good.
16:42
Then it sort of naturally weaves itself into another thing as an ex you know, exclamation or >> We get to know her so becomes less formal as the album progresses, which is really cool. Exactly.
16:51
It becomes less formal, but there's also just a funny like that's just the name.
16:55
I I think it shows up on this record maybe once. Twice. >> It does. That's cute. I think it's funny.
17:00
Well, because we're in now. Yeah. It's a part of life. We're all watching, man. Yeah. The ratings are high.
17:04
>> And then if I throw in a new name, freaks you out.
17:07
That means that you can kind of interpret it maybe they got divorced or something. We'd be concerned.
17:11
On the next record it's >> We'd be unreasonably concerned. Exactly.
17:14
That's where we cross the line and become Exactly. It becomes unhealthy.
17:18
Names are a big thing though for me.
17:19
It's my favorite thing in music, sort of. I have a lot of them.
17:24
Pre like me kind of really discovering my voice with absolutely there's a lot of names.
17:27
Is it a timestamp thing for you in a way?
17:31
Before absolutely the I'm still you know, you're still working.
17:34
You're still figuring out who you are, what you're trying to say.
17:36
And names were an amazing cheat code to sort of open up narratives that don't have to be personal.
17:44
They could be more personal than actually you thought they would be.
17:47
But then you're like a different person writing to a different person or acting as a different person.
17:51
>> We're also way more immersed in it as a listener because I want to know more about this relationship cuz it has a Now we have characters. >> Exactly.
17:59
Now you got a little exactly little one-part play.
18:01
What's funny though is with like the name, like I said there was a phonetic thing and then it did become an amazing little crutch because the freestyles were leaning towards these these images. Mhm.
18:18
But with absolutely there was still little shaky ground, so there's some narratives on there that sort of are abstract.
18:24
They're abstracted from my life a little bit.
18:27
There's moments I talk down is like really about um the drive back from when we recorded in New York. That's real.
18:36
Big Mike's is like obviously a real thing.
18:39
This these fun declarations. Did you see it? No.
18:42
I I was so obsessed It's so funny.
18:44
No one really picks up on these things, but I was obsessed with putting alien abduction stuff on every single thing I'd ever written when I first started making music.
18:53
>> where the cover comes from to some degree like Everything is there.
18:54
Yeah, there's like a I was always into UFOs.
18:57
And there's also this um Sufjan song Yeah.
19:01
concerning the UFO sighting. Yeah.
19:03
And I I always thought that was the best thing.
19:05
So it was weirdly a tribute to to that. Yeah.
19:08
But those the the naming, you know, convention and the sort of personal it it it's a hybrid in absolutely.
19:14
Whereas on baby for better and worse, it's completely autobiographical. I know.
19:21
I mean literally, I mean the first two songs are uh the euphoria of becoming a parent and realizing that we can do this. Let's do it again. >> Mhm. Right? >> Yeah.
19:34
Cuz everybody Not everybody.
19:34
I mean, sorry, that's a pretty sort of thoughtless thing to say cuz not everybody A wants to have kids and some people are really happy with one.
19:39
I just know for us when we had one, we were like I was like, "Yeah, but we're not the Clash." >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:47
Do you know what I mean when I say that?
19:47
Like when we walk in the room, you've got one in one hand, I want one in my hands, right?
19:54
That's when you the That's when you're unfuckable. Yeah, yeah. When you a quad?
19:57
Cuz you can walk into any room and no one can with you cuz that's the big That's the biggest gang in town. True. You and your kids. >> keep growing.
20:06
They keep getting bigger.
20:07
>> And then they find their own gang and then you It's still pretty scary though. Another baby was a joke.
20:10
Yeah, it was funny cuz there's some lines in there that are pretty funny.
20:13
But it's But it's it's I love the fact that it's like It does It It does speak to that sense of like, let's not stop. We're in that mode.
20:24
>> It's a true and it's a true conversation that you have when you have one. 100%. We have it all the time. Mhm. Still have it. Mhm.
20:30
But yeah, Another one of those little dudes, man.
20:36
How old is How old is your one now? >> He's almost two. Well, you're in it. It's tough to make it. >> crazy.
20:39
They're so crazy at that age. They're freaks. They're so aware.
20:44
They're so aware and they're so They're just taking it all.
20:45
I mean, that's It literally their CPU power is through the roof.
20:48
And their energy is infinite. So >> Infinite.
20:51
We just traveled overseas with him. I was like, jeez. How was it on the plane? >> Insane.
20:55
It was He was cool, but didn't need sleep, seemingly.
20:57
Infinite well wellspring of energy. It's so funny.
21:02
If you have a look at the faces of the of the of the of the fellow passengers when you walk up and down the aisle, it's really interesting.
21:07
>> I get so much anxiety. Oh, you got to lean in.
21:11
Our kid got shushed once. Really? By two people.
21:13
There was multiple shushes.
21:13
And I just walked up and down the aisle for the duration of that flight just glaring at anybody on the aisle seat. Like, was it you? Was it you?
21:19
There's like noise-canceling head Like, I I We flew to New York and I was like, actually it's not that big of a deal.
21:25
Everybody's got Everyone's got them on. And everyone was a kid. Yeah, yeah. Everyone was a baby.
21:29
They may not have flown to New York. Everyone was a baby. >> Everyone was a baby. You know?
21:33
The day when your baby's kicking off on the plane and you're actually secretly proud, That's a good day.
21:39
>> when my baby's flying in the plane. I'm such a proud dad. Parent of a pilot.
21:47
Such a good name for an album, too.
21:47
We got a lot I got a lot titles.
21:51
That's all I got, really. I don't write music.
21:54
I just write titles for albums.
21:55
Well, yeah, but I mean, it's a beautiful place to start.
21:57
I mean, that's kind of where the creativity, in my opinion at least, is probably at its purest. Yeah.
22:01
Because it's unfleshed out.
22:03
You haven't gone through your brain and figured out how to it up. It's just a cool title. It's a sick title. Sick cover art.
22:08
So, baby was there before anything really happened.
22:10
You Did you feel like you were going to go autobiographical pretty early on?
22:12
No, that's what's That's my biggest uh That's my biggest um surprise, but also a little bit of like, damn.
22:23
Was um I'm actually super anti autobiography in music right now.
22:26
You failed miserably on that. >> I really it up.
22:30
Um I was talking to friends though and I was like there's still a magic for me with music.
22:37
There's still like a very mysterious spell.
22:40
And um I I don't have a gauge of how you get better yet.
22:45
I have I don't have a gauge of being more efficient or less efficient, but all I know is that there was like an um There was a day where it stopped, where my ability to write songs stopped.
22:55
I think just out of like nervousness, anxiety, whatever it was.
22:59
And I had these songs that were kind of half-written, half-thought about, and they all were very personal.
23:07
And that was this thing I didn't get any motion or I didn't get any progress until I started putting them next to each other.
23:16
And then a new song would emerge like another baby, which was the sort of yin to baby's yang.
23:20
The yin and yang to that >> Yeah, that's like Well, that was Another Baby is my yin yang twin song.
23:26
But No, but it was like as I started I don't know why I'm laughing.
23:30
I mean, you are like literally half a step away from some Ying Yang Twins on this It's really close. Yes.
23:35
>> But you you start putting these things respecting these ones kind of ignoring the uh philosophy of like, I don't want to do personal I don't want to talk about my life. It's boring.
23:45
But once you start accepting it, that's where you were. That's the angle. Words started coming. I started finishing it. That's rough.
23:53
It's That's a crazy thing.
23:55
It's also interesting how you have to sacrifice certain songs to get to where you need to get to. Yeah.
23:57
I'm always fascinated by that.
23:59
Like these beautiful little kind of creative donations in the great to the greater good. >> Yeah. It's weird.
24:06
The whole thing is still weird and mysterious to me.
24:08
And yet here you are and so let's go back and and and figure out cuz we haven't done this like how this even became a thing because you strike me as the kind of person who has a level of curiosity that could have found its way into all kinds of things, whether it was like the search for extraterrestrial life in another planet. >> Ghost hunters.
24:27
>> Ghost hunters or perhaps underground, perhaps some kind of more of an excavation type thing.
24:29
What I'm saying is people with high curiosity barometers can find any manner of ways to obsessively, compulsively pour that into something for a life's work. Yeah.
24:37
So, how did music show up? I just was stoked on it.
24:42
I mean, I didn't really have a sh uh I didn't have like a obvious talent for it, but I just grew up around it.
24:51
I think I grew up in a Goldilocks era. Mhm.
24:55
Where you know, my cousins were a little bit older, so like the the speed run is just music was everywhere.
25:02
And both my parents were overseas.
25:05
I was with cousins all the time.
25:06
Um And they were, you know, 13, 14 when I was six, seven.
25:13
You just get the CDs handed down.
25:13
You're around music all the time.
25:15
Um And then when I got to internet age, it's just torrenting.
25:19
You hear about these things through friends or friends that you can like steal everything.
25:24
You can steal Um I remember stealing during like Lilo & Stitch, my cousin was like stealing Blink-182. Um Sorry about it.
25:31
Am I allowed to say Yeah, it's cool. They're totally fine. And it's awesome. They've done great.
25:35
But then you get like um You know, you just get these archives of So, music was just everywhere.
25:38
It wasn't until I was 15 though where started making a couple beats through programs that were free.
25:47
Because of boredom, curiosity?
25:50
>> Because I moved around so much. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
25:51
It was your private space.
25:53
Well, there was, you know, you had a couple of You get attached to a couple of friends.
25:55
Couple friends tell you about making beats. Um Then you leave.
26:00
And all you have from them is like an AIM account.
26:05
And the memory of you making beats. So, you start doing it. You start doing it. I was so bad at it. Still am, really. Actually quite bad. But hang on. Wait a minute.
26:12
Some of the greatest beat makers of all time.
26:13
I mean, with the exception of Okay, Pete Rock is is really refined. >> refined.
26:18
Like he's like a fine can find artist. >> Yeah.
26:21
But some of my favorite beat makers of all time, like I'm not you, internet, by the way.
26:25
Like, you know what I'm saying when I say this.
26:29
Like, don't bear down on me with your shitty digital ton of bricks.
26:33
But like half RZA's most iconic is out of time.
26:37
>> Out of time, out of key. So, Black Shampoo.
26:39
100% Listen to Black Shampoo. That's what I'm saying.
26:41
And even even Kanye, you watch him work and he's just like, it's done.
26:44
And it's like if if it was up to me and I had that talent, I'd spend six months trying to shave the edges off it cuz I'm psycho. On to the next. >> Yeah. I mean, but that was it.
26:55
Just you just do You do and you just start making stuff.
26:58
Um I got like a I got one of those samplers because I loved uh Panda Bear so much.
27:04
And through Panda Bear is actually how I discovered Quasimoto.
27:10
Cuz he like shouted it out in the interview.
27:12
I got a sampler and that's when I was like, let me just make stuff.
27:15
And I made stuff for a few years after that.
27:18
Finished college and I was still making stuff.
27:19
Were you Were you training your voice at that time or not even thinking about it? >> thinking about it.
27:23
I just wanted to make beats.
27:24
Um But it was the It was the pursuit of like it was academia that um really solidified that I was going to try to make music. Um I loved it.
27:34
I love I was like I did literature.
27:36
And um didn't feel I didn't feel smart enough to do like prose or you know, truly teach at that time.
27:46
You're so young when you um do that stuff. So, I started then.
27:50
It was just It was a fallback.
27:50
Not even a fallback, but it was like, I got this thing.
27:53
I do this in the I commuted to college.
27:55
I was like, I I can do this alone on the train.
28:00
Then you started, you know, the wheels start to really turn.
28:02
But it's it's still a pursuit.
28:04
I'm like, what the How the did I get here? Yeah. How do I get here?
28:07
I was always very opinionated though about music.
28:11
Um What you like and didn't like. Yeah, always.
28:14
Even when I just had no skills to back that thing up.
28:17
Um That's the thing though.
28:19
People have so much criticism now, but they don't get up and do it. Yeah.
28:22
I don't know if that's gone. Is it gone? Cuz that was me.
28:26
It was I was complaining so much No, it's bigger than it's ever been.
28:29
The idea of of the armchair critic, the digital critic without really any pedigree to suggest that they speak the language.
28:37
>> Or even get in there and like Which is fine because you Everyone's entitled to have an opinion about any old That's cool.
28:42
That's That's the That's the age we're in, man. And I And I respect it.
28:44
Like, what you like Whatever.
28:46
It's where it crosses the boundary into like trying to tear somebody's artistic spirit apart.
28:52
I'm like, that's With speed, too.
28:54
It's like with without really metabolizing that thing. Just like I hate this. Or I love Or I love it. Or I love it. It's insane.
29:02
>> Cuz it does take courage. Can we acknowledge that? >> Yes. To release music. >> 100%.
29:05
I think it takes delusion and courage.
29:07
Um Sometimes a little narcissism, maybe. Yeah. Full of myself. Um No, but yeah.
29:16
It So, it's interesting cuz I think that there was a pre social media like refinement, you know, like 2012, 2013.
29:26
I started making stuff with my best friend because we were maybe not the best students, but also we were like, we can't be so angry or we can't be so annoying all the time about the things that we like.
29:39
We Oh man, like the beats three years ago were better than the beats tonight.
29:42
Um And so, I remember that was like a very soft, but real conversation of like, "We should just make then."
29:51
It's insane to me to to have this, you know, position and opinion and just not make stuff.
29:55
And it was really as simple as that.
29:57
And like 10 years go by and it's like, "Okay."
29:59
And then you get to be your own worst critic. >> Yes. Yeah.
30:01
Which is the great comic kicking the ass. >> So fun. Yeah. Really Yeah. Again, it's delusional. I don't know.
30:10
But I do I think it's a I envy a lot of the people that I know who are just like, "I can just make I make it. I don't care. I make it." I care a lot.
30:18
Because I'm still navigating a um a naivety in here.
30:24
I'm still navigating also like a Are they going to find out that I'm caveman? I'm like I'm insane.
30:29
I don't know if >> Everybody already knows cuz you've been really clear about the truth.
30:32
I mean, you you are an artist who has hit it off all along comers at the pass on that.
30:36
I mean, you were very quick to say, you know, "I don't know what I'm doing.
30:42
I'm just figuring this this out."
30:43
Like whatever you like about me, I'm probably trying to change or undo. Yeah. Feel seen. Yeah. You know, it's true.
30:52
But humility is a word that I think keeps coming up a little bit when it's it's certainly like even when I hear your music is out and out of spaces it is and is as ambitious sonically as we all seem to be obsessed about.
31:02
Um I I do get a sense that you are always searching to remain humble in this space. Yeah.
31:11
I think it's just cuz there's There's just some some Like you don't court dude.
31:15
You're not out here like, "I got I got heat on me right now.
31:19
I got to some serious Bieber cuts going on.
31:21
I got an album people are calling the album of the year.
31:23
Sorry to have to put that on you, but it's true.
31:26
And then, you know, I've got shows selling out.
31:28
And yet, you're like not really capitalizing is my point.
31:34
I think one cuz I'm just like it's it's too crazy out there. The internet's insane.
31:40
I started jumping back on cuz I went off so I could finish the record.
31:43
A big experiment that we always do is like I try to do this fast.
31:45
So, the version of the record that came out was simultaneously being like reprocessed in with Sarlo and I like a couple days before, 5 days before.
31:57
So, I'm still processing in real time, but I you know, you jump back on and you try to see you want to do the thing.
32:00
You want to be like, "Please dig it."
32:04
It's just kind of volatile.
32:06
>> Wait, the timeline would suggest you jump back on around Swag. Yeah, yeah. I did.
32:10
That is super narcissistic. I did.
32:14
No, it was rightfully so. I mean, you know.
32:17
I found out about it like, you know, a couple days before. So, Is that true? Is that how it rolled?
32:21
No, kind of, but in a good way. Like in like a Yeah.
32:26
It's inspiring cuz that's exactly the spirit.
32:27
That's the essence of That's a huge um It's like the the the It's like the sexiest you can do, really.
32:33
Um It could be cuz you got the joy, right?
32:36
If you're talking about finding out you're on the album, I always think you get the joy of the experience. Yeah.
32:42
The result is neither here nor there for you if you're if you're if you're not making it. >> Doesn't matter.
32:45
Yeah, I think that's a big conversation that needs to be had is like we were just making It wasn't There's no um That's the the acceptance of the thing.
32:55
You That's you know, you're not going in there being like, "Is this going to be on the record?" Like who cares?
32:59
You just make >> But the point is you can't get caught up in the end result.
33:02
No, and the crew like just the crew was not It's just there wasn't even a conversation about music.
33:08
It was really just making music.
33:09
You just make music together.
33:12
But I I jumped back on cuz I wanted to also show some uh some love.
33:15
>> of I'm proud of that crew. I'm stoked on them.
33:17
Um It wasn't some The music is changing.
33:20
It's It's moving in a really interesting way and it's not We weren't doing pitch songs.
33:24
It was like Yeah, it doesn't sound like that at all.
33:27
>> No, you just It doesn't sound like it was a writing camp.
33:29
>> Everybody's in there, you know, we're all playing everything trying to figure something out and then life goes on and you keep moving on.
33:33
And I think that's the It's not humility, but it's it's it's a recognition of this is where music is now.
33:41
I don't know about the sport this It's not the same sport.
33:43
I I started I came out here 10 years ago, 9 years ago. It's different.
33:48
It's not I don't see it as this like Mad Max apocalypse I don't It's just like either make or don't.
33:57
>> I've got a 2:00 and a 5:00 tomorrow.
33:57
I'm doing three sessions in here. You can't.
34:00
It's like maybe some people are really amazing at it, but Yeah.
34:01
Who gives a I don't care.
34:03
You manifested this though, man.
34:05
I mean, again, it was a it was a one of the only other times I think you were on the record you had a good chat with the guy from Fader and it was I really enjoyed it and I back then and I reviewed it again recently and I kind of connect with you and stuff.
34:16
And um at the very end you were like, "I just kind of want to get away from this kind of idea that it's this super bespoke Dijon world.
34:22
I want to get into a in a room with pop people and see if we can make something different and subvert really is what I took from it without even trying to be clever.
34:33
Just bring our own natural selves to it and make something fresh. And then boom.
34:39
Like there you are in that room getting to do that with I mean, I don't even think there's any argument here.
34:44
The single greatest male pop tone of the last 25 years. It's the best.
34:47
Like the this collapsing of the of the the the system, it's just because like, you know, he's a he's like spiritually and like you said, tonally, it's just one of the greats.
35:04
And so many of us, I think with the democratization of making music, so many of us just don't have some of those gifts.
35:11
You start to get a little crazier with your draw It's like a little weirder with the narrative because that if if you want to say humility, it's not I don't think it's humility.
35:19
I think it's an acknowledgement.
35:21
I can't There's just some certain things you can't do or explore.
35:24
Um I don't feel comfortable um with certain certain images or certain narratives or lyrics and I can't hit that note that would get maybe 6% more emotion over here.
35:37
So, you start to develop these like micro things.
35:42
And to to join forces like that even for these like brief hangs, that's Yeah, maybe it's subversive, but I think it's just true and pure.
35:49
It's like Oh, it's so beautiful.
35:51
And when we heard about it and then we heard it and it actually rang true to what we'd hoped it would feel like, which was everyone's honest self together making something new collectively. >> Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting.
36:03
I want to get a bit granular on it though cuz people love these Swag albums and you've like you say, you're proud of it.
36:11
So, why wouldn't we just just dive into the detail a little bit like what was it like getting in the room for the first time?
36:16
Basic question, but like, you know, you were you with Mike?
36:18
I mean, were you guys in there?
36:19
Was it like, "Okay, I guess we're writing and then we're jamming and we're figuring out." Like Yeah. It's the crew.
36:23
They're the the >> Potter and Potter, Daniel, Dylan.
36:26
Um They were already working in these worlds and um my invite was just it was as unpretentious as any other invite that would have been there.
36:40
It was a couple years ago.
36:42
The invite was like I don't I don't write music to be honest.
36:43
I don't have like demos or pitch songs.
36:45
Um And everybody was totally cool with that. There was no pressure.
36:49
So, when you get there, of course, it's it's strange.
36:51
I think that initially it's strange.
36:53
Everybody's a little bit on on edge.
36:56
I just done a little thing, too, and but almost like 10, 20 minutes really the ice Yeah, I can I'm a good gauge, too, about like truth and discomfort, my own discomfort.
37:06
I can always read a room. I think I'm okay at it.
37:11
And it was very Everybody was just like, "We're just trying to figure out what's what we would write together."
37:15
And it was so un Again, I would like to bring It's just so unsynical. And so not expecting.
37:20
Um Doesn't It's not demanding and it's not um entitled.
37:26
So, we did a couple days just working out how we would interact.
37:29
Um And the crew was just like we're they're good.
37:33
They're good at what they do and they're chill.
37:36
And then it would just be like pop marks.
37:37
It was so um "Hey, are you guys are you free for a couple for a day or two?
37:40
Jump in, try something you don't."
37:43
Um I happen to be with Mike two of those days.
37:49
In, out, dap it up, see what happens.
37:50
It's like it's in their realm to control, but really everybody was all hands-on deck.
37:56
I think every song that we did together, Justin's playing the drums. Um Just present. Everyone's present.
38:01
It's not a big, you know, which when you're in it, it's kind of strange, but yeah, that you're proud of But joyful when a song like this starts to come together and you realize you've got something that's taking shape and it feels like it feels special.
38:12
Joyful and also um It just feels like fun.
38:17
It feels like we hadn't heard something that's great.
38:20
It's totally fine, but we're also not in control of Yeah, yeah.
38:21
You got to let it go when you leave the room, right?
38:23
Yeah, when we're out of there, it's like and we're not I'm not diving in.
38:25
I think that was the big thing.
38:29
Was I'm a I'm pretty controlling. As a producer.
38:32
But this didn't feel like you had to.
38:34
This felt like It doesn't It doesn't It felt like it was a different thing.
38:38
It's a different language.
38:39
You're interacting with something that's finding its its own footing.
38:43
You're a You're a color in there.
38:48
Um but typically, I'd be like pretty feverish about when you get the final joint, let me see what's going on.
38:56
You guys are going to it up probably.
38:57
But it's Well, what an amazing process for you to be able to actually You still Yeah.
39:00
Get out of that headspace for a minute.
39:04
Um No, it's it's So, what was it like when you heard it back after you found out it was happening?
39:10
There was a lot of There was a lot of love and respect because it wasn't It was kind of exactly that.
39:15
It was the photograph that was already taken.
39:18
Couple tweaks, couple like volume tweaks, whatever, but it was the photograph that I remember. Oh, that's cool.
39:23
So, I was like you know, hell yeah.
39:25
It's the gift that keeps on giving, man.
39:27
The new ones are great as well. Fun.
39:30
As a performer yourself, I don't know if that's a word that you can relate to, but you know, as a vocal as a vocalist, as a singer, as somebody who is searching for the area of of searching for real feeling is what I get from it.
39:42
Um you know, leaning into processing the right level of distortion, the right level of reverb.
39:45
I always feel like when I'm hearing you sing that even just the way that you're mixing your songs or your vocal your vocals um is adding to the to the narrative of the song.
39:54
It's not just oh, does it sound good and is it loud? Yeah.
39:58
And you know there's most singers who sing for a living will be like, do whatever you want on the track, just make sure I'm the loudest thing on it. >> Yeah.
40:03
I feel like you use your vocals as a way to continue to add layers to the story. Yeah. Conscious? Conscious.
40:08
Um utility, you know, I have my co-pilot here was he's just such an adept mixer, engineers on some amazing records, but we both were very it was it was a very exploratory.
40:23
We we both were very unpleased with um the possibility for my vocal to be sort of this thing here or too much like absolutely where it's just kind of like floating around.
40:36
So, there was a utility to it where it's like how do we get the sound to be fleshy? Mhm.
40:41
>> Some day some moments you're just like like the vocal for 2 seconds, who cares?
40:43
Like it doesn't feel it doesn't feel necessary even though and it's like well well we'll read the lyrics at some point in time like it just you know this particular mix pass that works for some reason. Vocal be damned.
40:56
So, there was a lot of exploring in that way, but it's conscious too.
40:59
There was um there's a the opening track on LP's Fantastic Damage.
41:03
It's I think it's just called Fantastic Damage. You can't hear it.
41:07
Damn, what are you saying?
41:07
And it was it's so incredible and it sets the tone.
41:10
So, I loved about the Strokes.
41:12
This guy two two Strokes albums, I mean half the time you got to lean into Julian so much to figure out what he's saying is.
41:16
And there's there were certain moments where it's like that it's so sometimes it sets the the tone.
41:23
I thought about that song a lot on this record where that tone is so chaotic and so scary and paranoid.
41:29
And there's supposed to be some of that on the record and that was a little bit North Star.
41:34
And these just these bursts of um these kind of sort of stabs of emotion that just jolt out at you at times which feel just impulsive and in the moment.
41:47
Do you do do you have a a particular any thinking about multiple takes do you prefer not to do that?
41:56
Is it about capture a I guess I'm trying to say is like when you put the headphones on and it's time to sing whether you're holding an SM58 or you're in a booth somewhere you know what gets you there to the point where you know it's not performative? Does that make sense?
42:11
It used to be you want to make yourself cry.
42:13
That used to be the thing. Valid. Mhm. By the way.
42:19
So, people should lean into that. >> Yeah. It used to be that.
42:21
Now it's I think it's just like there's a couple songs on here that were really labored over, not comping. I don't really do that. Mhm. That's not Yet. Not not yet.
42:32
Yes, phase three is comping.
42:35
Um I mean we joke, but I mean that that's why the not explore that too? And then Yeah.
42:42
>> I just find like there's I'm not anti-comping. I don't care.
42:44
You do whatever you want, but I just never really found >> you're not a little anti-comping?
42:48
I might be a little anti.
42:50
I mean no no, I just I mean for me it's weird.
42:52
I've had some people engineer my Yeah.
42:54
once or twice and it just doesn't sound Yeah. real. Yeah.
42:58
Um that's the big goal is essentially to be like I just want to be the this there's this just a sore a sore thumb. Um sometimes. So, What do you mean?
43:10
Just a you want the the person singing to you to be like this crazy just like like a person.
43:16
I think that um that's the the main exploration these last few years is just like what happens if a it doesn't mean it it's pleasant.
43:26
What if like a guy is just singing these songs?
43:28
Um and I found some of the techniques that you can do they're for the function of music sort of, but they're not really that's not part of the intro set is just like three-dimensional narrative, I think.
43:45
So, that's my only comping.
43:48
Um No, I get it, but you know you you rem these tools that allow everybody to have access to recording at a high level often negate the ability to be able to capture the rawness. Yeah.
44:00
And they lean you into a space where more is just more.
44:05
It seems to want to actually like um Keep going.
44:08
It it seems to want to kill rawness.
44:11
Yeah yeah yeah and the next thing you know it's like well I'm in key and all my harmonies are beautiful.
44:15
Is there a voice in there? Yeah. Yeah.
44:16
Is that what you're saying? Sort of.
44:18
And I think that the this this record has definitely been a a a challenge knowing when to I don't know when a vocal's done now.
44:25
What went through the tumble dry the most?
44:27
What sort of what sort of Baby. Baby was hard.
44:31
That started off full-on Shania Twain kind of thing.
44:36
Um What's full-on Shania Twain sound like? You know what I mean? Like crazy chord.
44:42
There was like literally I think this exact tempo.
44:49
It was like very much like that.
44:49
Like Huey Lewis and the news or something.
44:52
And it was What a beautiful baby.
44:54
>> exactly We might do that live.
44:55
That one took most of like you want it there because a friend or two will be like, yo that song is actually pretty sad.
45:04
And then I broke the song down one time >> Yeah.
45:07
and I started tearing up cuz I didn't me and my my my good friend Henry Kwapis we started that song like 4 years ago before I had a kid, 3 years ago.
45:15
As a joke I was kind of like it lives somewhere as I did that with your mother.
45:22
And I was just doing this kind of like goofball Paul Simon thing.
45:26
Um and then it got retooled over time and then I broke it down on the piano and it got me very emotional.
45:30
That has like nine nine different versions.
45:33
Were you were you already a father when you when you got emotional? Yeah, guys.
45:37
So, it was just it it was waiting for the Yeah. for the for that thing. That took a while. Higher took a while.
45:43
Yeah, but thank you for seeing that one through because um I don't know.
45:51
Did you have to get out of your own way on that one?
45:52
I had to call in I got I had to call in the hound.
45:56
Yeah, right because I can imagine if you were trying to figure out how to deconstruct or at least avoid the possibility of constructing perfection Yeah.
46:03
that that song was begging you to let it just be cuz it's such a natural It's a strange one.
46:11
Dude, it's so sticky and I can imagine that must have been icky for you.
46:15
It was rough cuz you just don't want to do like my thing is I'm I'm also I don't do um nostalgia. I just refuse it.
46:21
If it shows up, if you find touchstones in the music that's just a um because I have not efficient efficiently exercised that from my body yet.
46:30
Like that's You haven't deleted all the files >> all the files yet.
46:34
I Trust me, 20 2030 it's just >> I go to you I may have heard something like that before.
46:41
That's you're okay with that. Yeah, but you know what?
46:42
That's an accident and 2030 2030 is all Martian dust. >> it to you. Yeah.
46:49
But that one was it started off as like a real like conscious high aiming.
46:51
Yeah, sort of as a very conscious thing as it developed and blossomed.
46:56
Cuz that was I did that with a cool crew in April Base uh just hanging out Mhm.
47:01
when we were doing Day One.
47:01
And then we pivoted that night and I freestyled that with everybody.
47:07
Um I couldn't recreate that cuz all these people weren't in the room anymore. Mhm.
47:13
So, when I kind of went back into it I was like, this is so swagged out.
47:15
I love this but I cannot I can't do it justice.
47:20
And then you start doing it and it becomes really funky.
47:22
And you're like, I can't live there. I don't live there.
47:24
That's a crazy place to live.
47:28
And it was initially this like Paul McCartney ode. Mhm. You know.
47:32
Um simple Wings kind of thing. Which are funky. Wings are funky.
47:34
So funky, but also so weirdly like Yeah. right there. Yeah.
47:38
Um And so it just had to get retooled and really that was like a Hail Mary. I had the vocal.
47:43
I was kind of attached to the some version of a vocal.
47:47
Um and it got Hail Mary'd with the help of my and Andrew we just like at this board took every step.
47:54
How how We started muting and unmuting.
47:57
>> That's a My god, that's a nightmare.
47:59
I mean like that is a fun hazardous fun hazardous experience. >> It's evil.
48:09
There's a little video of it somewhere. It's evil, right? >> It's evil. Yeah.
48:11
Do You never do it again either.
48:13
Bro, that's the equivalent of pulling all the tape off the reel Yeah.
48:17
laying it on the ground and deciding to just figure out what you're going to cut, but but there's spools of tape. Yeah.
48:22
That's the only reason I kept it though is cuz it's still quite funny and like mysterious.
48:27
>> How how important are the is the offbeat onbeat scenario to Was that always there or did it feel >> Always on.
48:32
It was a it was it was a Pro Tools mis mishap.
48:36
When when I did the demo and it was this amazing Yeah.
48:40
And then I started freestyling the song um and it just made sense weirdly like everybody picked it up when we were all playing the initial thing.
48:45
Everybody remembered the pause.
48:47
So, >> Yeah, it's really cool. >> Interesting.
48:50
Um but yeah, I'm not smart enough to do like that.
48:53
That's too >> Consciously.
48:54
I think your subconscious is like waiting for you to wake up and realize that it's actually pretty smart. Cuz I'm serious, man.
48:58
I'm not trying to give you faint praise here, but it's kind of true.
49:01
Like I mean you you your instincts are super sharp if you're going to let that happen. Yeah. I think so.
49:06
I think just want to preserve as much original stuff.
49:08
But also this was a a challenge of seeing how you can be less precious about the original the raw demo stuff.
49:15
That was my bread and butter for a long time. Yeah.
49:17
Get out just let that go.
49:19
And I was like, this is a has to cuz it's this music's sucking.
49:24
If you just keep the raw like if there's not much um not much effort um which was my that was my philosophy for a long time is that Don't put too much effort in?
49:36
>> Yeah, the music shouldn't have it Um certain flavors. She get to the essence.
49:41
This one was the this one was it was a challenge cuz I was I wanted higher on the record and you had to work towards it, you know. Can we talk about fire? Yeah.
49:49
I feel like again you dressed it up in all the right clothes.
49:55
Like it's it's as a piece of music could have set in a few tempos.
49:58
Not it it it it it needs it needs dynamics.
50:03
But it needs a dynamic pace to it.
50:03
But you it's like I feel like that one may have been fun. Yeah. Yeah.
50:11
It it's it was the fastest retooler cuz it there's one demo and then we kind of opened I opened it up again.
50:17
I started that demo with BJ Burton.
50:21
We opened it up and yeah we he and I did a lot of the initial groundwork for the record.
50:27
Um just as like homies and going back and forth to Minneapolis just testing some stuff out.
50:32
But that one we opened it up I think I was having a pretty hard time.
50:37
Opened it up and I was like honestly this kind of rocks.
50:38
Um but quickly recut the vocal and then we just stripped everything and I just did one or two passes of the drums and the bass and then Pino came in and just he was there hanging out and that one was quick.
50:52
Um and I kept it on there because there was a different version of the album that was a little bit more efficient.
50:58
That one kind of threw a wrench and made um it made Odyssey make more sense to me where it's like now he starts to become manic. Mhm.
51:05
Um That's a good word for it, man.
51:08
It definitely feels like that but it's it's also it's a very gets your attention and holds it and then you know we go into I mean referee rewind almost feels a little bit like they're kind of like siblings in a strange way but you know for me when you get to a song like rewind um you're back in that bag that we that you touched on on absolutely or being a very different way where you're like you know what emotion comes first.
51:30
Let me just not Let me not like set that set the production hounds on this one to see if we can destroy it.
51:37
Like I feel like you honor that song pretty.
51:41
That was the first that's the first version.
51:42
Um only one that's not that's untouched on the record. Yeah.
51:45
Um Why not touch that one?
51:48
What makes that one special? That one just worked.
51:49
It worked out the gate and when we started that song um it's pretty stressful.
51:59
I didn't have like the words.
51:59
I didn't have a thing but we we started it with the pretty similar palette to what it was.
52:07
I make everything in the garage by the way. 2025 no studios.
52:12
By the way I hate to break it to you but you just like fully like just dropped a bomb on yourself.
52:17
Yeah give me that little bomb.
52:18
And and you know and you know do you know what would have been the bomb is if you'd gone 2025 went to a commercial studio blew a million dollars made this album. Reverb? Ah. What up y'all? What up y'all? This is Dijon.
52:32
I just want to say I just got out of a two million dollar recording budget.
52:37
Shout out to the six different studios in six different parts of the world that have made this album and Yeah.
52:43
And you're like yo I made this in a garage big me up.
52:48
Um but no so this one did I think this did start in a great little studio but um I did go back and then once the lyrics kind of came that one was just like there's just what >> Stressful because those guitars to me are very emotive.
53:01
If I heard those chords and everything flowing I'd be like if I don't live up to this one.
53:05
Do you know like I can imagine and I don't know how Frank works or how he does it.
53:08
No one does that's the beauty of it but if I'd heard the the riff to Siegfried I'd be like I don't know if I could ever live up to that.
53:14
I wouldn't know what the to do and only Frank could pull that off right cuz that little riff before he even opens his mouth I'm done. >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I do.
53:23
I think that there's also just like an iconography thing like you kind of said that was a challenge where I can't tell you why but there was just a moment where I was kind of out of all I was done with all that stuff for a while. Mhm.
53:35
I didn't want anything familiar.
53:35
I didn't want any tone that you could hear.
53:39
So there was a challenge but once it the lyrics came that was the one that was like you're writing this somehow.
53:48
Um it all starts like phonetically but it finds itself and that one didn't change because I was also learning how to there's a lot of phases on the on the on the record and I learned how to do a few things alone on that one.
54:03
That then six or seven months later you bring in.
54:06
So that one was an exploration of like a very specific kind of distortion.
54:13
It was also a very you know I yell a lot in my music. Um cat's out of the bag. I scream a lot.
54:20
But that one I was like trying to figure out how to create a dynamic some sort of some sort of some sort of arc that wasn't just um Yeah I just wanted >> Emotions got the best of me.
54:30
Yeah cuz it does it does feel like you're actually trying to control your emotions.
54:37
>> and then eventually the Ouija board came out. >> yeah yeah.
54:39
And so I was working on small little things.
54:42
Tons of revelations that came by accident but that's why it stayed.
54:43
It's like that one sounded like what it needed to be. There's nothing else.
54:46
It's funny you know you talk about I trying to divorce yourself a little bit or at least separate temporarily or or long term from from the things you've done before and perhaps also some of those songs that your instant presents a higher whatever where you're like oh my god like please don't let this be stock.
55:00
Please don't let this just be a really good version of what I've heard before.
55:03
And yet you do have songs in your canon if I can be so bold which are kind of timeless sounding and do touch on subject matter which is in a in a very unique way that stand alongside other great songs.
55:13
Dress being a great example like when you think back to a song like dress which is so I got to tell you man as someone who's been happily married for 26 years you know and it doesn't have to go one way either.
55:25
Like sometimes if I'm getting ready to go out and just a simple compliment on how I look as I'm like oh thank god cuz I'm not feeling great about myself.
55:32
And you summed it up so beautifully and in particular with the line you know and it always will.
55:35
That's like the oh all right you. That's a great line.
55:39
So like so when you when you think about a song like that now given you're a different human to the person who wrote it how do you feel about a song like that?
55:46
Yeah that one was it's it's pretty anomalistic too cuz I was probably it's probably the last song for the last record. It sounds like it.
55:52
It sounds like it was the last song written for that.
55:55
What do you mean when you say that?
55:58
It just completely it was >> You you got out of your own way? >> It was conscious.
56:01
Yeah it was like let's just get a little joint.
56:02
Let's get a little joint on everything else is like drones.
56:06
>> is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is the thing is Yeah.
56:14
It's also just your specific perspective.
56:15
I can't sell certain things. I just can't.
56:20
Um I mean kind of love is almost like the dress on this album.
56:22
It's almost like the one where you just about got out of your own way and gave and gave people like >> Almost. Almost.
56:29
>> Almost got out of the way. We still kept it.
56:30
Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah no it's in keeping with the rest of the record right?
56:33
It's in keeping with that beautiful creative contrary kind of approach to like oh you know you think you want it but I'm not going to give it to you entirely so you.
56:39
But it but it is a song that it kind of like I think it I think it sits in the Z series.
56:45
Sure it might be in the Z series.
56:47
It's it's adjacent Z adjacent.
56:49
Um that one's a fun It was just the vocal performance made me laugh so much and like Okay can you talk a little bit about what what it's like trying to record a song like this which we all take very seriously and apply to our everyday life and becomes part of our love long playlist and you're cracking yourself up while you're singing it.
57:05
>> Well it was more of like so so many so much of the process of the record was pretty isolated.
57:08
That one was right I think two weeks before my son was born.
57:13
Um I had you know everybody hanging out and I think I'd written a few of the things that landed on the record there.
57:23
Um and stuff that didn't make the record.
57:24
That one was like we were kind of doing the thing um yeah me and Mike and you know a few other friends just kind of there and then once the night winds down and you have this like sort of fabric and loop just singing into an open mic in the room like the classic days.
57:43
And then I listened to it and it just made me laugh. I sound like a goblin.
57:46
Like Bob like I sound like Lil Wayne and like Bob Dylan goblin man.
57:47
And I think it was it's just so funny cuz I do think it's quite emotive yeah and I don't remember I don't remember doing like the pinched thing like the He take me back.
57:58
I don't remember doing it and it's so funny and I think it's so cool and that's the that's the the pursuit you know when you feel that freedom I just want to do something like oh I want the the character to always be very 3D and like fleshy.
58:09
Yeah it's not just a it's not just I can sing within this range and I'm going to do it really well and you captured it and now mix it really well and put that out.
58:17
It's like I don't quite know how what you're going to do which brings us to kind of the idea of performing live and stuff and I think you know you've done shows before but I wouldn't say you're a hard touring artist.
58:26
You know I wouldn't say you've got like loads of miles under your feet. Barely any.
58:30
>> Right and and yet the times I've seen you do it you've successfully on video at least you've successfully recaptured or at least tried to get recapture that sense of intimacy. Yeah.
58:40
Um but there are shows now.
58:41
I mean there's Granted most of them are in California. >> Yeah.
58:46
Between San Diego or wherever.
58:46
No but there are shows and I mean there's even Europe and things coming up in the new year and so yeah simple question you know what is what is playing live if if if you've evolved as a writer and a producer and somebody who wants to create music have you evolved in terms of your appetite for performance?
59:01
I had so much cynicism for live shows. Why? I just didn't trust it.
59:06
I didn't trust the the format to be honest.
59:09
I didn't trust the I buy a ticket now entertain me.
59:13
Yeah I I just didn't yeah I didn't like it.
59:14
I didn't like maybe it's a personal thing with yourself but there was just some sort of exchange that felt like it was happening. Um mhm it is a trade.
59:21
It's a trade and I just didn't feel prepared for it.
59:27
I did I think I feel a little bit more excited to do it now. Maybe I don't know. We'll see.
59:32
These songs are hard to sing. We'll see if we're good.
59:35
If we're good, then I think I'm going to be like the road's been so blessings.
59:39
I think if it's bad, I think I'll be You're already clichéing the song.
59:44
I'll really be really cynical.
59:45
Um like can't you just kind of look at it as well as an adventure?
59:48
Like I understand the show is the show, but you've got a baby and a wife now, and the baby's little, and you can just travel and you can figure it out.
59:54
Isn't that kind of part of the whole joy of it? No, it is.
59:55
It's also stressful though cuz I have a baby.
59:57
And by the same token, it's just like he's hard to travel with. It can be done. Yes. Yeah. It can? Okay. >> be done.
1:00:05
Um no, I'm I I like to also move around and travel.
1:00:08
I think that I'm just I've been gone for a while.
1:00:12
I got to just make sure I can deliver these things in some sort of dynamism that's not um mean-spirited.
1:00:18
I think that there's adventure that's still open, and there's potential for some of these songs to live differently.
1:00:23
And I just want to do that justice.
1:00:26
So that when you see it, you're like, I did get a different thing. I got the thing.
1:00:29
I got some sort of exciting experience.
1:00:32
In terms of the trade, staying with the concept of the trade, and this is not to demystify it, but you do know that like what you do on stage is ultimately going to serve your purpose because people in that crowd are having their own experience. >> Yes. Yeah.
1:00:42
That is kind of the thing. I just went to Oasis. Yeah.
1:00:46
And they sounded amazing.
1:00:46
And had the songs for days. Yeah.
1:00:50
But when I was in that crowd jumping up and up and down to Acquiesce, that crowd was having their own >> Yeah. Yeah. time.
1:00:55
There's other ways, other lens.
1:00:58
And also, if you get a ticket, I think that you're fairly optimistic about what you're going to see.
1:01:01
You're going to you need your own Dude, excited.
1:01:03
People are going to be excited to see you.
1:01:05
To your point, it's been a while.
1:01:07
I mean, even just when you jumped up with McGee, and that was a huge thing, and you could see the energy in the room really lift.
1:01:14
What did that do for your feeling about playing live just knowing it wasn't your show? It's your friend. Yes.
1:01:18
You can get get a taste of that adrenaline, and not the pressure of having to deliver the whole thing.
1:01:25
Did it Did it kind of break the spell a little bit just doing that? >> 100%.
1:01:28
I paid all them to do that. By the way. I paid all those kids. Um No, no, it did.
1:01:35
>> Is that false humility again? It did. It did.
1:01:37
It was It was It was dope.
1:01:37
It was just dope to see like, "Yo, the small ripples, it's working.
1:01:41
It's It's amazing, you know?
1:01:42
Um there is a little world for this. It was fun. I know. That was fun time.
1:01:51
Um before we say goodbye, and cuz you've been really generous with your time, and I hope you've enjoyed the experience. >> I'm sorry.
1:01:56
I'm so I'm I'm just awkward guy. I But this is nice.
1:01:59
>> the way, >> This feels good. >> feel like we matched.
1:02:00
We met in an awkward place. >> Yeah.
1:02:04
I'm super good with awkward. Oh.
1:02:04
By the way, man, I Now I Once I learned how to embrace the awkward silence in an interview, I live for it. >> I know. I won't I won't break. I fill up space. Mhm. See, I got Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You broke it. You broke it. You broke. No, it was adorable.
1:02:28
I could keep going with you for 10 minutes. I'm here for it. Um Congrats, man.
1:02:34
I mean, it's I mean that genuinely.
1:02:36
I don't know I I I don't know whether that word kind of resonates with you given that you obviously don't make it for congratulations, but it the album is so good. And it is it Yes.
1:02:49
Yes, it does It It does push you sonically to engage with it and to connect with it and to search for things more than just the words in the performance, the melody, whatever.
1:02:59
But I love all the little hip-hop like I love all the It's just the just the I like the jokes, too.
1:03:04
Like the 1 2 3 4 YOU GOT BUMPED.
1:03:09
It's like like that is just brilliant. Silly. Yeah. And like the what?
1:03:12
Just coming in out of nowhere.
1:03:13
It's just It's almost like a like a '90s rap record that had intros.
1:03:15
Like De La Soul used to do that so well on the first four albums. >> Yeah.
1:03:20
They'd have like ever ever cool breeze. What? Hey.
1:03:21
I still can't possibly fathom how they did any of that. It was all on tape, too.
1:03:25
So 100% that's a big big Yeah. That's a big touchstone.
1:03:31
Just trying to show love to that world.
1:03:33
That's what I grew up on. Yeah. Um Yeah.