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All right, this is part two of the episode with Jeremy Giffon.
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He is the first employee at Tiny.
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He was there from the beginning when they turned $5 million of equity into roughly $500 million of business value and took the company public just by buying businesses.
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So, last time we asked him, you know, about those early days, about the first business that they bought, the mistakes they made, the lessons they learned.
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This episode is different.
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Now we're asking him, if I was doing Tiny today, how would I do it?
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How can I do the same thing that they did?
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What what businesses would I buy?
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What trends, what opportunities does he see?
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And he tells us the single best investment opportunity he sees today and why he's putting his money behind that.
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So, this is a fascinating episode, part two with Jeremy Giffon. Enjoy.
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So, I want to ask you about opportunities.
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So, what business opportunities, trends, um or ideas do you have that people who are listening can kind of expand their their scope, right?
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I remember when I was trying to be an entrepreneur, one of the big big problems I had was I only thought the world was this big, tiny little circle, and I was only looking for opportunities in that inside my tiny circle.
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And it was only when I listened to podcast, and I kind of wish MFM is a podcast I wish existed at the time, but it's like only when I would listen to certain people talk or hang out at a dinner, I would hear some idea that was not something I'd ever considered.
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So, my circle got bigger and bigger and bigger.
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And then the more that circle got bigger, the more opportunities I saw.
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So, I want to go through a couple of trends or opportunities you see.
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So, if I told you um what are the juiciest opportunities that you see right now that somebody could uh could do or that you you know, you think a smart person could go go for?
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The like second most interesting opportunity I what I'd be doing if I wasn't if I wasn't um raising a fund to to do these these buyouts, it would be finding people with audiences and either buying businesses for them or building businesses for them.
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So, I think that I think it's like a anomaly, like a the business is in its toddler stage that the way most people with audiences monetize is through ad reads or sponsorships.
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I think it's kind of like Hollywood when you, you know, you're a big star, you'd get paid to to hold up a glass of Coca-Cola or something.
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And I think every um person with an audience will eventually the money that they make from equity in a business that they own will massively dwarf the money that they make from ad rates uh or or sponsorship reads.
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But, the big problem here is like generally if you're a great podcaster or a content creator, the last thing you want to do is buy a business for one, like that's risking capital, that's hard, or even start and run a business.
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And so, I think there's a big opportunity to basically build a business around someone with an audience and come to them and say, look, like I will be the CEO of this thing.
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I think like you know, um this is the perfect product for you guys to like really organically use and like and talk about for a long time, and I will run it, and you know, we'll split the equity or something like that.
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Um you know, Joe Rogan did this with Onnit and sold that company for for for a lot of money.
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And there's other examples, Doug DeMuro with his um Cars and Bids.
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And the people are starting to do this, but it's still very early.
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And I think that like if I was just going to start a business de novo, I would say, okay, what's who are content creators that I really like, and what is the perfect product for them?
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And then just like make it easy, you know?
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It's a pretty low-risk proposition for you guys, for example.
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Um but if you do it right, like even if an like with an audience of your size, you can have nine-figure exits, you know, over four, five years.
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And that'll obviously dwarf all the money you make from advertising.
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If anyone wants to do this, Sean at seanpurry.
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com, feel free to hit me up.
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By the way, this is how uh Tiny's doing this.
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You Matina, which is the the um the drink they're doing with Huberman.
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They bought a yerba mate company, and then they he's he loves mate, and he's been drinking it for a long time.
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It's a perfect type of product.
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So, they did that for him where if Huberman was like, and now I'm going to take a break from my science stuff to go become a searcher and go find a business a PE deal to do, like that'd be crazy for him.
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But but Tiny doing it makes sense.
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They also did it with James Clear.
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They built the Habits app, right?
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Um so so you know, another app versus ad read type of thing.
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So, I think they're executing on it well.
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This is also how Congo Brands built Prime.
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So, they they did Alani Nu, and then they were like, okay, cool, we're going to do Prime.
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They went and pitched Logan Paul and KSI, and they were like, hey, you guys are going to be the promotion engine of this.
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You get equity, um you know, significant equity in this, and we're going to be the operational back end for this, and we know we know how to do this.
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We can build a in their case, what's probably going to be a $10 million plus company off of that that brand.
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brand. Yeah, it's it's definitely starting, but I think and like the Turning Group has been very good at it with um you know, they did Doug DeMuro and um Steven Rinella Rinella with uh the hunting stuff, and it's definitely starting to happen, but I I think like a more, you know,
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this is a little bit exaggerated, but I think most people in a YC batch could find a podcaster and just say, okay, you're going to be the audience co-founder for this thing, and we're going to give you 30% or something, and we're going to work with you, and it's going to be a product that you can sell very organically. Um and because I I do
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Um and because I I do the broad thesis is that these audiences are still super underpriced, basically.
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Um that the equity you're giving up is you'll be more than compensated for.
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And I think that'll last for for for quite a long time.
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And the long tail is really good, too, right?
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Like you could do it with a very niche YouTuber, um and and still sell a more expensive product or or or do it multiple times or whatever.
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And I I I basically just think everyone with an audience will eventually have some really tightly integrated organic product to sell. Love it.
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All right, so that's a great opportunity, which is go find a content creator who's got a like a a great audience, high trust, and basically buy or build the perfect business for them, and have them be your audience co-founder.
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I think that's a it's basically an really unfair distribution advantage you could generate for yourself by doing that. All right, love that.
5:44
What's what's another one?
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One other trend that I'm just really bullish on is um basically the idea that everything in the modern world is like poison and toxic.
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I live in New York, like the air is making me dumber, the water is like ruining my hormones, uh all the food that I eat at any restaurant is like full of seed oils, and you know, everything that I eat is like some combination of soy, corn, and wheat.
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And the wheat is all sprayed in glyphosate, and like just everything is really bad for you.
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But, it's like this huge and I'm kind of a freak about it.
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Like I have water filters and air filters and buy all this specific food and stuff.
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But, it's a it's a really mentally taxing.
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Um and I really wish I think it could even just take the form of like the Wirecutter, but for, you know, these are products that are not going to kill you.
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And and the thing is it's such a nefarious problem that like it runs the gamut.
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It's like clothes that isn't made out of polyester, bedding that isn't bad for you, cleaning products.
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Like you could do every single thing in the house.
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I would love to have a Wirecutter kind of thing, which is a great business, for just like this is the version of this thing that is not going to kill you. Um Dude, check this out. So, uh go to live-oasis. com.
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I found this website the other day.
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Uh my coworker sent it to me.
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And it's uh they say, uh do you know what's in your water?
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90% of the water sources contain toxins, microplastics, and other contaminants.
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And then they rank which water, as in uh the cities, but also which water bottles have like the water the water brands.
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I see one that I used to have. It's very bad.
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It says one out of 100 it's in the very bad category.
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Well, that's the thing, right?
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Even you try, you think you've done it, and then it turns out the thing you bought doesn't even work.
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Like it's very complicated.
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Well, I and I go to this and like I'm scared because I also see the thing that I have, and it says bad.
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And then you click it, and they make you pay $5.
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And this is uh definitely a thing that I purchased recently.
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I'm like, I got to see which water bottle Like you click on it, it's like sad. Horrible.
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I just want like, okay, like I need a shampoo.
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What is the one that like Huberman and Attia and Rhonda Patrick all agree on, and I'll just buy that one, you know? Yeah.
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Um and I can I think that it can exist for almost every single thing in your house.
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Ask Sean why he's drinking that water. I know why. Yeah.
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We we hosted this event, this Camp MFM event, and it's we do it at Mr. Beast's house.
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We're in like remote North Carolina somewhere.
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And uh we all show up, and this billionaire shows up.
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He's got like, you know, his security guard with him or whatever.
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And I'm just fascinated, like, oh, how does this guy travel?
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He flew in private, he's got a security guard.
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But then the thing that really stood out is he said security guard carries this case of waters.
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So, we had Fiji bottles of water, which is like it's in a plastic.
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And you probably got got that cuz you thought you were being fancy.
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See, you you wanted to make a good impression.
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so impressed with my choice here of Fiji.
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Like I went I went for it.
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And instead he's got his own like Aquapana glass bottles.
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And he was just he'd always be drinking it.
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He didn't say anything, but I was like, hey, what are you doing?
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That Except except he made the noise whenever you when he when he saw you drinking out of the you did Joe, what are you I switched to Aquapana for my drinking water for my family.
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I bought an Afina shower head filter.
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So, cuz the other thing is like, oh, you're drinking one thing, but then you'll go shower and bathe your naked body in tap and like the dirtiest tap water with like a 30-year-old, you know, shower head in my house. It's a if uh afina. com.
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Uh I bought the shower head from there, this like filters that water.
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And so, I'm just like one by one replacing different parts of my my house to try to try to get rid of some of the the bad stuff.
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Yeah, the traveling with a crate of mineral water, that's a that's a good that's a good way to spend money. I like that.
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All right, so two good ones.
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I like I like the Wirecutter for products that don't kill you, by the way.
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It's like it's just Wirecutter is kind of like value-based, and in this case it's health-based.
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And I think that's just like a such a simple model that somebody could do.
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It's probably like 10 years of awesome execution and real like love and care.
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Like it the only the right person should start this business.
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It's not like anybody can do it, but I do wish somebody did it.
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I mean, Examine did it really well for supplements.
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Like it it certainly can be done.
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It's just I would know I would use it every day.
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Hey, real quick, you know, one of the cool parts about what we're doing is that people have reached out and told me that they've built actual million-dollar businesses, made their first million off an idea they heard on the show. That is crazy. That's wild.
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That's why we want to do the show.
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And we want to see more of that.
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One of the questions we get asked over and over again is is there some kind of idea database or spreadsheet where we list out all the different business ideas that we've talked about?
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Well, the answer is finally yes.
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The fine folks at HubSpot have dug through the archive and pulled out 50-plus business ideas and put them into a business idea database. It's totally free.
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You can click the link in the description below and get the database for you.
10:28
All right, now back to the show.
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Let's do a couple more transit opportunities.
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You would talked I asked you a question when we were hanging out yesterday which was what are what's a business type that you really love?
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Maybe you guys didn't even make an acquisition in this space, but like what are categories that you really loved?
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And you mentioned I don't know like a regulation compliance type of category.
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Can you explain that one? Yeah, for sure.
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So like anytime a government anywhere introduces some kind of arcane rule you have to follow like you if you don't follow it you go to jail.
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So it's like the ultimate kind of motivation to buy, right?
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And sometimes it can be really difficult.
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So you know, we looked at a bunch of examples.
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One one was um there's this great company a software company in Italy that just did banking regulation for all of make sure all the banks are compliant with all these things.
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And that's like an amazing business because first of all, you're going along Italian regulation which is probably a great trade in and of itself.
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But like in the future Italy is going to have more rules than it does today.
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And then aside from that it's like a bank is not going to rip that out ever.
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And it's you know, it hits that golden criteria which is it's relatively cheap but mission critical.
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That's like a really great one.
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And there's a bunch of these.
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There there's all these you know, for buying a house for um for vetting tenants for KYC and AML.
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Um uh if you if you start looking for it day-to-day you see it a lot.
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Like I just rented a car and there's like a process there where they check my license against some database and I'm sure that's a piece of software.
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Like those are great because I love it because it's like a low lift and the downside is super high and you don't really want to mess with it once you've got it working.
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Um and the other interesting thing about them is that exists for every country at least every Western country.
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And so you can go find the software that does that for you know, Europe or or one specific country or whatever and there's going to be multiple versions of those.
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Even Canada like Canada has different rules than America and so that's either it's you know, two different software products or two different companies.
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So I love I love those those businesses as well and they're also like fairly AI resilient I think because it's really again it's like medical stuff.
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It's really high downside so you don't want to like trust it with AI and then it turns out you weren't in compliance and you're going to get a huge fine or go to prison or something.
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Yeah, I I made a bet recently in the regulated a regulatory compliance type of space and I was like you know, we have this thing on the pod that we talk about one chart businesses which is like a business that you don't need a a full business plan for.
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You can just put one chart up on the screen and you say that's why I'm doing this.
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And the one in this case was basically that regulation only goes in one direction.
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It only goes up into the right.
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Nobody ever rolls back any of these needs.
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It's only going to increase.
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And so if you can become you know, maybe the go-to provider or like a key piece of software in a space like that is it is just such a bet such a bet you want to make because you know that regulation only goes up.
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You know that like this compliance compliance requirements they don't just say yeah, you know what? Forget them.
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You don't need all that compliance stuff anymore.
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Like this is never going to happen.
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It's only going to go in one direction.
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And like you said you do it or you don't get customers or you get go to jail.
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It's like that's a pretty strong motivator.
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So like you know, I think people are going to want to either get customers or avoid jail.
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And it's just like the right type of space to be and it's the type of space that 24-year-old me would not have known or appreciated that that's a better business to go into than what I was doing at that time which was like dating app, social network, like cool new sexy you know, thing.
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And now I'm like it's kind of like what's sexy now is like a knee-length skirt.
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It's like you know, show me a compliance business and I'll I'll show you my interest.
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The other big opportunity for someone who who's wanting to start a business is like you can front-run these things, right?
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You can see what's going to pass.
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You can see what's just passed.
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And you can be the first provider for that and have a huge leg up especially if it's a fairly niche thing.
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You could very well be the only option for a couple of years which is a huge advantage, right?
14:26
Why don't you start these things instead of just investing in them?
14:31
I don't I don't like operating businesses.
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I'm not I don't think I'm very good at it and it's not what I enjoy doing.
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And so I think everyone should try and do like really stay in their zone of genius as much as they can.
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I think that it's like personally very good and also good for the world if that happens and so I'd rather like be allocate capital to the cuz I think I'm good at allocating capital to the person who maybe needs capital and is really excited about building something.
14:56
All right, two more things on here.
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The first I I actually don't have context on this, but I'm very interested just because of the title the boy versus the guy.
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Yeah, so the boy versus the guy.
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So um It could go a bunch of ways.
15:08
It could go a bunch of ways.
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Yeah, there and and there are a lot of different readings especially depending on what coast you're on.
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Um Yeah, basically it's it's like it's the idea of being a lieutenant or being like a protege effectively would be the the the classier way to say it I guess.
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Um and so you know, in generally there's like there's the trusted lieutenant who is um you know, just the solid number two really important but their whole identity is being like a lieutenant to the number one person.
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And then there's this other genre which is like um on the West Coast it takes shape as a chief of staff a lot where it's just you're kind of this like you're you're this young rising superstar.
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There's this sense of like you're really gunning for number one.
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And and the idea like the the what made me notice this originally was especially in the Valley every like billionaire has one or two really young smart boys generally who just kind of like float around them and there's this kind of tacit agreement of like you come work for me for two or three years. You shadow me. You're my apprentice.
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And then I will back you and like open doors for you.
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And it was kind of funny like at some point you know, I was in like social situations where it's like oh like it's kind of like flying under the the flag of a lord or something.
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Like everyone is you know, everyone is like you know, going on the private jets of these principals or whatever and they themselves are probably broke but like they very much live this lifestyle because they're like under the protection of a lord.
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Um and so I think it's like there's another a new kind of piece of information that I've figured out about this is it's also an age gap thing.
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So if you're within 20 years of the founder or the number one person in the organization you're almost always going to be a guy.
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Um and if you think of like all the great firms or even you know, companies where someone has become the new number one there's almost always at least a 20-year gap between the person just because otherwise you're too close.
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And so I think that dictates it a lot as well.
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But it's these two different things of the other way to put it would be that like the principal really sees something in this young person and wants to you know, can tell they're like on a rocket ship.
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They're not going to be an employee forever or whatever but it's like you give me two or three years and I can really accelerate things for you.
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And I think like that pairs very nicely with the cold email thing which is um you know, I generally think like if you want to start a company you should just start a company.
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Don't go like work somewhere to get experience or whatever.
17:41
But I think this might be the sole exception which it can really open doors of either investment or vouching or connections or whatever.
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And you know, there's lots of examples of this like um uh I know like Ben Casnocha like very wrote very publicly about being Reid Hoffman's chief of staff.
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You know, Blake Masters with Peter Thiel.
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Uh you know, Sam Altman was this to Paul Graham.
18:04
Like there's there's kind of all these examples of it that I think are are really instructive.
18:09
I just recorded an episode with Joe Lonsdale who was this for Peter Thiel.
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Like he was basically Peter Thiel's protege and now has started I don't know more billion-dollar companies than anyone else in the country.
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And I think you know, he's a fascinating guy because when he was 18 19 20 he was an intern at PayPal.
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He then he was at Peter's family office.
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Then he started Palantir with him and then you know, then eventually you know, went on to do his own thing.
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And Joe's done this for a bunch of people.
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One of my close friends was was his his chief at one of his chief of staffs and it's an amazing launching pad.
18:38
If anyone out there I'm looking for a boy.
18:43
Never thought I'd say that but under this context I am sure I I sure enough looking for a young boy.
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So We need to start a We need to start a community.
18:52
We'll call it Weedem Boys.
18:55
I don't know if you know this but I've had four people who are kind of in this bucket.
18:58
I I hired them when they were let's say between the ages of 16 to 20 and that have gone on to either become you know, that have gone on to become millionaires in some cases millionaires and like successful content creator podcaster type of folks as well.
19:10
And it's happened four times already.
19:12
So I'm looking for my fifth.
19:13
Yeah, I think apprenticing is really underrated.
19:15
You know, you think about it in the context of being like a blacksmith or a carpenter or something.
19:19
But I think for a lot of these things it's the single best way to learn.
19:22
Hey, I've got a question.
19:23
I noticed that you studied Do you study philosophy at Columbia? Yeah.
19:28
That so I remembered as a kid I I saw this crazy stat that I think it was the majority of people who scored really high on not the bar but the test to get into law school.
19:41
They actually most of them the LSAT most of them were they studied philosophy.
19:45
That was their their undergraduate degree.
19:47
And then I saw you studied philosophy and that's kind of an interesting way to go because now you're raising this massive 100 million plus fund.
19:54
Um Did that What What did you learn in philosophy that you think is going to help you make a good business person? Yeah, I don't know.
20:01
It's It's uh There's a big It's a big club, you know, uh leave it to a philosophy major to know every philosophy major, but um there's tons of names, you know, Reid Hoffman, Peter Thiel, Peter Fenton, um Stewart Butterfield.
20:13
It's like this weirdly overrepresented thing.
20:15
My favorite stat about philosophy majors is that um it's something like in the top 10% of earners, they're the highest earning of all people.
20:24
So, if you take the top 10% of every major, they're the highest earning.
20:28
In general, they're not the highest earning, but like there's that kind of like group at the far end.
20:31
I don't know exactly what it is.
20:33
I mean, I I can speak to my own experience.
20:35
I think it's just like if you're going to spend four years thinking about a set of questions, thinking about the most fundamental questions is just really appealing.
20:45
Uh that's certainly what it was to me.
20:47
I don't think I really learned anything um that's super It's It's funny like you know, uh I'm Canadian.
20:56
I had to get a visa to be in America.
21:01
And uh a big thing thing with visas is like is what you studied relevant to what you're working on.
21:07
And, you know, the answer for philosophy as far as the US government can is concerned is no, it's not relevant to anything.
21:11
But, I'm always like, well, no, it's relevant to everything.
21:13
It's like, how should I live?
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What should I you know, what should I hope for? What can I know?
21:17
These are relevant to every field.
21:19
Um And I I think maybe the other way maybe the other cut at it is it's just like being interested in the most fundamental and the most abstract versus like learning uh you know, something more applied.
21:29
It's something about that just kind of draws these very kind of curious uh I I I I guess like intellectual and I don't really mean that in a complimentary way, just like people who think like to think a lot.
21:40
Um but, there's also a big difference between people who study philosophy in undergrad and then move on and people who study philosophy for their whole lives.
21:47
Like those people are really people who just like they thought they they think like, you know what?
21:53
I actually want to think about like, what is a good way to live for the rest of my life?
21:56
And I think that's a little crazy, right?
21:57
Like at some point you want to go, okay, I've like explored this.
22:00
Now it's time to go go move on.
22:05
I wanted to ask you about um hold cos, which seem to be the new trend or people buying businesses.
22:09
I think a lot of them take inspiration from Tiny and what you guys did.
22:13
What's your take on, you know, the hold co trend or influencers out there who are like, I own 500 businesses?
22:19
You know, like what's what's your take on all that?
22:21
Bragging about how many businesses you own is really weird and probably like a contra signal to how good you are.
22:26
Um and by the way, like anyone who owns a lot of businesses will will and should tell you that.
22:30
Like I know Andrew would certainly if you know, if he could have Tiny with one business, that would be much better.
22:38
Um And so, it's always a weird thing to say like, oh, I've acquired 100 businesses or whatever.
22:41
Um I guess unless you're like uh Constellation or Shore Capital or something where the whole point of it is that you like buy a million businesses.
22:50
Um Cuz yeah, it's always better.
22:50
If you could have the results from one company, that would be way better than than having to own a bunch of them.
22:56
And that leads to the point about holding companies, which is the thing that people don't understand about holding companies.
23:01
There's two like There's two real reasons why you would start a holding company versus a fund or some other structure.
23:05
One is because you want to hold everything forever.
23:09
And I think that's a fairly faulty premise.
23:11
So, usually when people think because so people look at Generally, they're looking at two places when they think about the merits of holding everything forever.
23:19
They look at Buffett or they look at venture capitalists.
23:23
Um you know, you you don't want to be the person who sold Google at the IPO or whatever and and and Buffett famously owns everything.
23:29
Although, that's like not actually true.
23:30
Buffett sells stuff all the time.
23:31
Um to your point, Sam, about him being a little bit different than his public persona.
23:36
Um But, like Okay, so both of those groups, Buffett is talking about railroads and insurance companies and energy companies.
23:44
These are companies that ostensibly will exist for 50 or 100 years.
23:48
And venture capitalists, even more than that, they are looking specifically to find the one in a thousand company that will be a 50-year company.
23:55
But, most companies are not 50-year companies, especially not $5 million software companies, you know?
24:01
Like it's It's kind of crazy to buy a Chrome plugin and say like, yeah, I need to own this thing for 40 years. It's like, no.
24:08
It's first of all, like software is really difficult.
24:09
My kids will inherit this Chrome plugin.
24:14
Yeah, you're not buying one of two railroads in Canada, you know?
24:16
Like you're buying a Chrome plugin.
24:18
And so, um first of all, just thinking like, oh, I need to hold this forever, I think is a bit flawed.
24:24
And then second of all, if you get the chance to sell it for a great price, like that is probably the way that you maximize returns.
24:29
Um if you're actually interested in just making the most money.
24:33
And so, that's one thing with holding companies.
24:35
Um the other is that I think when the more investory types start them, they really don't appreciate a holding company is a part of it is what you're holding, the other half is a company.
24:46
Like you just run a big operating business, you know?
24:50
I Tiny has I can't remember.
24:50
It's like north of 1,200 employees across the portfolio.
24:54
Like that's a big business that you're running.
24:56
And for most investors, that is a completely contra skill.
25:00
Like if you're a good investor, the last thing you should be doing when you meet a great investor, you're not thinking, oh, you'd be great as the CEO of a 1,200 person company, you know?
25:09
Like Generally, those are very far apart.
25:10
And so, what can end up happening is you spend a ton of your time actually just operating a business and you're not able to invest, which is the thing that you're probably the best at.
25:17
And so, yeah, in general, I think they're quite they're quite overrated.
25:21
And you also actually said you're like, most Harvard guys who are trying to buy a plumbing business, they shouldn't buy a plumbing business.
25:26
They should just go and start a plumbing business.
25:29
Yeah, this one always cracks me up.
25:29
It's like your resume is, you know, Harvard, Goldman Sachs, Harvard Business School, Bridgewater, and then it's like Ohio Plumbing Company.
25:41
And you're always I always think like, I get it.
25:43
I I you know, the math works, it can be lucrative, whatever, but I always think like imagine if you had you know, you're this brilliant young person.
25:50
If you had just moved to Ohio when you were 18 and started a plumbing company, you'd probably control all the plumbing in the state. You know what I mean?
25:58
Like you just wipe the floor with them.
25:59
And it's always weird that people want to go through all these loops.
26:03
I think a lot of it is just to make themselves feel very fancy.
26:06
Like, oh, you know, I set up this deal and this acquisition and these investors and stuff.
26:09
But, a lot of these businesses, I think if you just started them, you could really wipe the floor with with the existing competition.
26:17
Uh you have one more thing that you're known for, which is something like the pre and post fall.
26:20
I don't know what this is. Can you explain this? Somebody texted me this.
26:23
They go, oh, you got to ask him about pre and post fall. So, I define fall.
26:26
It's like a pseudo biblical idea, but I really define it as like a period in your life where you've really been brought to your knees by whatever.
26:33
It could be a death or a breakup or you know, a health scare or or or bankruptcy or all these kinds of things that like really just kind of humble you um truly.
26:46
Not like how most people say humbled, which is like, oh, I just got on the cover of Forbes, I'm so humbled.
26:49
It's like, no, you're It's actually the exact opposite.
26:52
Um But, like truly truly humbled.
26:55
Uh And I really think that that changes someone um for the rest of their life.
27:00
And I think it happens to everyone.
27:03
I think it happens totally at random times.
27:05
It could be early in life, it could be late in life.
27:07
Um but, you can just kind of see it of you know, the the the extreme example of this would be like a a veteran who's been in a lot of combat.
27:14
Like nothing is really going to shake someone who's been in a bunch of firefights, you know?
27:18
And um they have their fall while they're building their business, you know, it can get really difficult and hard and lonely.
27:31
And um Yeah, the best way to describe it is like after it's when someone's post fall, you can just kind of see it in their eyes that they've been through worse.
27:40
And so, they're not going to it's just not going to shake them that much versus someone who's pre fall.
27:44
And by the way, you can become very successful, you can be late in life, but nothing bad has ever really happened to you.
27:50
And and I view that as kind of a liability in some sense of if you're going to partner or work with them of like boy, like when something goes off the rails here, this might be a really big blow up.
27:59
Cuz of course, like, you know, if you're a broke kid, it's one thing, but if you're like a high-flying person, the the way in which you can blow up is far more spectacular.
28:08
And um And yeah, it's really just like, have you really been humbled by life in like a true way?
28:12
And uh and I think when you look at it that way, it's quite evident that, you know, people either have or haven't.
28:18
And I think it makes a big difference.
28:19
Do you want to talk about the special situations, distressed venture stuff or or do you want to to save that?
28:27
Uh yeah, we can we can talk about that. Okay, tell us.
28:30
What What is the What is What is the opportunity here?
28:35
Yeah, so the opportunity is this is like really combines a lot of the factors that I love, which is effectively there's this whole class of venture-backed companies where they raised too much money um in especially in 20 and 21.
28:47
And so, you get this like strange phenomenon where you can have a business that's doing $10 million a year revenue and growing 30% a year, but maybe it raised 40 or 50 million dollars.
29:00
And um such that like the founder is probably not going to make any money because the pref stack is so high.
29:06
And then the the other part is the investor is really not going to make any money.
29:09
Not in the sense that they want to.
29:11
So, a venture investor, they like they want a good investment to return the fund um generally.
29:15
And so, it's like this weird thing where you have this great asset, you know, if if if you guys owned a business that was doing $10 million of revenue growing 30% a year, you'd be very happy with that.
29:25
But, if it's owned by a venture investor and run by a founder who's got this pref stack, the founder's not going to make any money, the venture investor doesn't really care about it.
29:33
So, it's kind of this like in some sense, it's actually a worthless asset.
29:36
And so, um you know, I we've done these deals at Tiny before and and what I'm really interested in is doing a lot more of them personally.
29:44
And so, I've been talking to a lot of founders and talking to a lot of GPS about this and there's just this huge opportunity and the opportunity is really to take a business that's because of its cap table it's just broken it's not working for anyone and turn into a business that works.
29:58
So like say the founder owns 10% and you know the press stack is 50 million turn into a business where they own 30% and they can run it profitably and it can be like a great business.
30:10
business. Like a question that I always ask founders is what would you do if you just bootstrap this thing or if you own the whole thing and generally that's a different answer than if they were in their current situation and it's a service for the venture investors as well because they you know they have to be responsible for these
30:25
things they got to go on the board they got to audit them they got to think about them at a lot of these companies take up a lot of their time and they're not the ones that are going to drive returns and so it's just this weird kind of vestige of the fact that venture returns have been so high that there's all this waste like there's these 10 20
30:41
30 million dollar year companies that are not really making money for anyone and this is this weird situation right because there's nothing wrong with a business but you can get them for cheaper than you would otherwise because there's this like weird second and third order incentive set normally a distressed business the
30:56
business is broken here it's that the cap table is broken but the goals of the investors don't line up with the realities of the business is that exactly exactly is that what you're going to do that's I love special situations I like all different types you know I think when tiny when tiny started bootstrap businesses were kind of a
31:15
special situation and now it's way more popular and I view this a special situation is a really nice way to I love a good special situation I mean that's yeah that's totally totally a special situation sounds a lot nicer than distressed asset yeah yeah for for sure but it's it's like it's like this idea of
31:38
oh there's all these people that want different things and if you can just like arrange the bricks so to speak that everyone gets what they want you can like unlock this puzzle and like with what I'm doing everyone is better off the VCS are happy the founder is happy like everyone's better off and I love those I love those situations
31:56
when you can do them and then it also to go back to our like initial thing it's a very specific thing so you're going to come to me because you know that's what I do and I'm going to get stuff that other people don't get because I'm doing this very specific thing and I for my particular form of laziness I love it when people just know what I
32:11
offer and then they just come to me it makes things so much so much easier than having to go to them and convince them to do something you know it seems like you are like me which I love because I like people like me but it's also it's also rare you remind me of myself I I think that's why I love you yeah you're great cuz I see part of me
32:29
and you but it's the opposite of what most people come on the podcast and say most people come on the podcast and say you got to work super hard hard work is everything and both me and you are like we ask a different question which is like how can I be lazy and win the most and we're like yeah I I take pride in a certain form of laziness I'm going to be
32:48
super active in one area but I I absolutely reject a certain type of sweat that's how I think about it do you think about it the same way totally I I another like archetype I have of this is like you can divide the world into the into the you know the Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of type and then maybe the the Sam Altman type
33:11
and it's not to say that Sam Altman doesn't work hard and Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't smart they are both examples of doing both of course but like you know Schwarzenegger it's all literally like in the biography it's about like laying more bricks like lifting more days more hours it's just grinding and when he becomes an actor
33:27
it's like more auditions more movies more practice versus maybe someone who like Altman who like found this big opportunity and like was really early on it was really clever about how he set it up and everything and it's more about making these like moves and probably like you Sean like I I find there's a certain elegance in
33:47
in doing things with like the least amount of moves and other people aren't like that like Sam I I bet you're probably more like people who work really hard grind it out like put in the hours I know you you love Shackleton I think Shackleton's a lot like this like just like outwork everyone else and you're acting like you don't like you looked around like I
34:05
don't know but you are like that you're like hard equals good because hard means I'm hard whereas I'm like easy equals good because it means that I'm clever right it's like you admire a different attribute no yeah I mean there's value I think it just sweating sometimes like you know I think that sometimes because a thing is
34:25
hard therefore it is good for you I definitely believe that but I mean I only work like 40 hours a week I work a normal work week but yeah I mean I I fall a little bit in the middle I do think that like just doing a hard thing for the sake of it being hard there is like some type of like divine goodness within that and you got to do both like
34:47
there's you know for the lazy person there's periods of really hard work and and vice versa but but I think when people say they don't work hard and they still like achieve greatness I think they're full of like Sean you say that you are lazy dude you you'll he'll he'll text me a paragraph like a book at like 10:00 p.m. like you're m.
35:03
book at like 10:00 p.m. like you're still doing you're just you're laying on the couch while your wife is watching TV and you're on your phone you know you're not at a desk I view laziness as not that you don't do anything it's that you don't do things you don't want to do I just do all the things I want to do at
35:22
full force cuz that's how I cuz I like them I want to do them I just don't do a lot of things that I don't want to do I'm very selective or cheap about how much effort I'm willing to put into things that I don't actually want to do and I'm willing to be lazy on those right it's kind of like the definition of work versus play work is
35:42
you know work is how do you define work one way of defining work is the stuff that you don't want to do voluntarily and play is the stuff that you do want to do voluntarily and I just opt into a lot more of play than I think most people do and I'm I'm I have a lower tolerance for work that I don't want to do than I would say the the average successful
36:02
person and the reason I like Jeremy coming on is because it's cool to see examples of a different play style cuz we've seen a bunch of the other play style cuz it gets a lot of it sounds amazing the David Goggins the work harder grind more show up early leave late you know like that I get that that's a cool play style
36:18
it's just not what everybody wants to do so I like hearing other play styles yeah I mean Sam you're you're definitely right like I'm sure I I do a bunch of stuff that I'm not even conscious that I'm working a lot harder than other people cuz it it just feels innate but I think like another way to look at it is
36:33
there's certainly type of person who the way you soothe yourself so like some people will just soothe themselves by putting in way more hours like you know working on that like diminishing marginal return piece of like off I just put in a few more hours on this and other people I think it's like I just got to figure out the exact right thing
36:49
to do here like what is the exact right move and you spend all your time thinking about that you guys want to do a 50-mile race with me in August dude I've been training for this thing and I had to run 10 miles on Sunday and I haven't ran that far in forever and I'm just like depleted so you want to come work hard come come join this race
37:06
with me yeah that's probably a good one everyone who loves like the super endurance stuff is probably a grinder at at heart cuz it's just like about if I do so much of this I don't just be better than everyone else it sucks I just when we were in Austin last week we were hanging out with do you know Isaiah
37:21
photo do you know who that is Sam no I don't he's a YouTuber who lives in Austin and he's got probably like 10 million YouTube subscribers and if you go look at like what are his popular videos or like what kind of was his break he would do stuff like these challenge videos these are kind of like grind videos counting to 100,000
37:40
like that he's like how I will lick this Jawbreaker as many times it takes till the Jawbreaker disappears how many licks does it take he'll hold a lighter on and he'll be like how long till this lighter just goes out like how much lighter fluid is in this how long does that last it's like 100 million views or whatever I mean people love this and it's like
37:57
you know to his credit he found what people wanted and he gives it to them at the same time I'm like oh man I'd shoot myself if I had to do that because that's not that's not a path that's very appealing to me but that same personality I'm like oh what do you do for fun outside of YouTubing and he was like oh I love running same
38:12
thing I'm like oh god what's the deal with you runners he's like oh yeah I really want to run I want to start a run club I love running and I'm like if somebody told me yo you got to run today they just said Sean you got a bad day today and I'm not trying to be a runner but there's so many successful people that love running and there's there's like a
38:29
really high correlation there on the other hand I went did a podcast with Monish Pabrai Jeremy I assume you know him Andrew told me he's like he was my first value investing man crush and this episode is great Monish is that the first time you've done that when's the last time you did that that front off years ago when I'm at my wife
38:55
it sounds like you've got practice and he was like yeah I take a nap every day he's like a good year is I make one or two investments which is like literally clicking a button it's not even like he runs a company he's like buying a public stock and he's not even buying he's not day trading he's not analyzing everything he's like one or
39:13
two good investments in a year would be a fantastic year and he reads and he chills and I was like man the both guys I would say are winning they're winning at their craft like to have 10 million YouTube subscribers is phenomenal he's built a wonderful life for himself and the other guy you know is a phenomenal value investor but the
39:30
lifestyle and the the things that they value are so different you know one guy maybe has to stomach losing 75 million dollars of net worth in a day and he's got to be cool with that and the other guy's has got a stomach waking up tomorrow and being like, how do I come up with the next crazy video? And it was really remarkable to see
39:47
And it was really remarkable to see that.
39:48
So, you know, I think Jeremy, you were talking about like, you know, you sort of pick your prison in a way.
39:53
I'm assuming you've sort of seen these different games that people play and and decided which one is appealing to you. It's funny.
39:59
Guys like Monish are like, I call them the nap room guys.
40:02
Like there's a whole set of value investors that have a like a room in their office.
40:07
He's like, this is my nap room. And he opened it up.
40:08
I was like, this is amazing.
40:09
Is that a thing, nap room guys?
40:12
Yeah, there I've met at least like three or four different value investors like that who like they have a place to nap.
40:17
I want to ask you about that same idea, but in a different way.
40:22
So, I'm going to give you my observation and I want you to I wanted to know if you have any specific stories that that line up with this.
40:28
So, my observation, we we talked about does Andrew grind?
40:32
Right, he comes on here, he acts super zen, super calm, super philosophical.
40:34
He wants to be like Warren Buffett.
40:37
He's playing bridge half the day. He's reading.
40:40
And then once or twice a year he just blesses us with a beautiful investment, right?
40:46
But you know, one thing I have seen Andrew do is he may not work super super hard, but he works very fast.
40:49
He is incredible at sniffing out opportunities.
40:55
He's incredible at fast follow-ups.
40:59
He moves really quickly when he's excited about something.
41:00
That's the first thing I noticed.
41:02
The second thing I noticed about Andrew is not only does he move really fast when he's excited about an opportunity, he'll just keep texting you about it or he'll keep prodding until he finds out more information.
41:11
He'll he'll fly to meet you right away.
41:13
But he also will will be persistent.
41:13
So, like I think with some of the businesses it's like, yeah, I used to eat I love that business.
41:19
So, I emailed him every month for like five years.
41:20
And then finally one month they were like, yeah, I am willing to sell the business.
41:25
And I think that was the case for maybe Letterboxd or Dribbble where he was just emailing the founder continuously. Aeropress, same thing.
41:31
He was just emailing the guy like, hey, Yeah.
41:33
have you thought about selling this month?
41:35
Hey, have you thought about selling this month?
41:36
Hey, you know, some version of that question hanging around the hoop.
41:40
In fact, when we sold the Milk Road, same thing happened.
41:42
We tried to sell the business.
41:43
We walked away from these guys at the last minute.
41:45
And if I'm them, I'm like, oh, hate the you know, I hate those guys. Screw them.
41:49
Well, let's let's kill those guys.
41:50
And instead they were super professional about it.
41:52
They were like, okay, no problem.
41:54
Like sounds like you have you want to go in a different direction.
41:56
And they hung around the hoop.
41:57
A month later he says, hey, I didn't see any announcement.
41:59
Like no deal went through.
42:00
Um and we were like, no, you know, we decided not to do it for this and this reason.
42:05
He's like, well, we're still interested.
42:06
And he I was like, wow, that was so different than how I I would have done that.
42:10
So, we made it a practice for us.
42:12
Whenever we're buying businesses, it's like, uh A, don't get personally offended when it happens.
42:16
And B, we schedule the automated reminder.
42:18
A month or three months later, let's just follow back up and just make sure that we check in and say, hey, is there still an opportunity here?
42:24
We still like the business.
42:24
We liked it then, we like it more now, you know, like if there's if there's still an opportunity, let us know.
42:29
That idea of hanging around the hoop.
42:30
Are there any other stories either on Andrew's moving fast and or being persistent and just following up over and over again that you remember?
42:40
Yeah, I mean on the fast thing, it it's annoying, but it's true.
42:42
The the most successful people in the world respond instantly.
42:46
I cannot believe it's kind of infuriating how true it is, but uh when you email the billionaire CEO, it's like a 30-second response.
42:52
When you email his vice president, it's, you know, it can be a week or something. That is just so true.
42:58
And um I I I really try and force myself to respond fast.
43:02
I wrote this little script for for Gmail that um it archives my email every 24 hours.
43:09
So, I like have to respond or it just disappears.
43:11
And I feel like it's a really good nudge of like just send send the simpler text messages like response.
43:18
Um and Andrew is like super super high pace, really energetic.
43:21
Uh the the thing that comes to mind is when you're at, you know, lunch or whatever with him, if he thinks of someone you should meet, he will pull out his phone and like send the intro email before you've even like finished the sentence.
43:34
And um it's good and bad.
43:36
Like sometimes you're like, wait, like I don't want to meet that person or whatever.
43:39
But but it's also just this like if if you think about it in terms of iterations, it's so many more iterations of just making them happen.
43:47
And also like movement, especially when you're an operator, movement creates information.
43:50
Like you learn more by doing more things.
43:52
And so it's a really powerful combo.
43:54
And then yeah, in terms of following up, um I think just being a little Andrew used to call it like being Dennis the Menace.
44:02
Like just after just being a little bit more willing to just kind of like poke your head in even when it might be a little like um you know, gauche or whatever, can be really can really be really powerful.
44:15
It's kind of that just like, hey, like you still interested in selling?
44:18
You still interested in selling?
44:18
You still interested in selling?
44:19
That Dennis the Menace bit, that's a good one. That's a good one.
44:23
I like that's a good one.
44:25
And he's willing to be the menace more than most people.
44:27
Like he's he is willing to he does menace.
44:29
Like people do say, you're menacing me, stop it.
44:31
But it also like really pays off cuz just like, uh you know, it's And if you think about it, it's like, okay, fine.
44:36
Like who's that guy who emails me every three months?
44:40
Like maybe you had a bad day or you're done with the business or whatever.
44:43
And you're like, all right, I guess I'll like skip what that guy has to say, you know.
44:45
Um and uh yeah, it's it's incredibly it's incredibly powerful.
44:50
And and more people should do it.
44:52
And just generally be less afraid of like I learned this doing a lot of cold email for sales.
44:59
Um you know, if you send out a thousand cold emails, you're going to get one or two responses that are just someone's going ballistic.
45:05
Like, if you email me again, I'll sue you or whatever, you know.
45:07
But the other 998, it's like either positive or no response or neutral.
45:12
And it's just like all upside basically. All right.
45:14
So, I want to shift gears to what I call the spicy hot take section.
45:20
The semi-controversial opinion section.
45:21
If this was if we were in a club right now, this is that part where the DJ starts like the beat's about to drop.
45:27
And we all know things are about to get a little little crazy, little fun.
45:30
That's what's about to happen in this podcast.
45:34
Okay, so here's the first prompt.
45:34
I'm just going to prompt you and then I want you to kind of give us your rant on it.
45:39
First prompt is about Mr. Beast, which is that Mr.
45:40
Beast shouldn't be selling chocolate bars. What should Mr.
45:45
Beast be doing instead of selling chocolate bars?
45:46
Yeah, I mean I think it's a testament to how valuable audiences are that all the most valuable businesses that have been created are like the worst businesses.
45:55
Chocolate bars, supplements, merch, that kind of stuff.
46:00
Like these are really bad businesses.
46:04
And so I always think, okay, what happens if Feastables is the most successful like creator brand?
46:11
What happens when that is, you know, a really good business, a bank or like a great software tool or something like that?
46:18
And then by the way, explain.
46:20
Why is chocolate bars or Prime from Logan Paul, why are those bad businesses?
46:23
Cuz somebody might say, oh, they're doing hundreds of millions of revenue or they're they're going to sell for a billion dollars.
46:27
Like but but you're saying bad business that is a characteristic of like the underlying fundamentals of that category. So, explain that.
46:34
Yeah, there the reason like you can still be to be clear, you can still be very successful selling chocolate bars.
46:38
Like Hu Kitchen is one of my favorite companies and Jason Karp has like chocolate and I know he's very successful with that.
46:44
But it's it's it's kind of that thing of like, you know, is it a restaurant or is it a you know, a SaaS company?
46:50
Like there's levels of difficulty basically.
46:53
And so, you know, there's just businesses like if you can contrast extremes.
46:58
So, a chocolate bar, low margin, not a repeat customer, not a like super necessary product or anything like that versus say, you know, something really low on the stack like home insurance or property insurance or something or or or Visa or MasterCard or like something that you need every day.
47:16
Like there's just better qualities of businesses.
47:17
And then the other way you can think about it is what would be the like enduring enterprise value of the business without the person.
47:25
So, Feastables is going to have a way harder time without Mr.
47:27
Beast than, you know, if he built a bank, right?
47:30
If the bank had hundreds of thousands of customers or whatever.
47:34
Ostensibly he could go away from that.
47:36
It might make the business grow slower or whatever, but it's still like a really great great business.
47:41
And so, I actually view it as very like very it's very bullish for the creators.
47:44
It's very bullish for the space.
47:44
It's kind of like you're making it work on hard mode.
47:48
And and I wonder what it looks like when it's kind of on easy mode. All right, next one.
47:52
Net worth is a silly metric.
47:54
So, why is net worth silly and what's a better metric instead?
47:56
You told me something about like kind of personal cash flow or something like that is is a better metric. Yeah.
48:01
Yeah, I mean so my like my other line on this is billionaire a state of mind because the amount of billionaires, first of all, it's like it's so cuz it's it's always unless it's either like you have this in cash or it's your shares in a public company, it's always a complete matter of taste, you know.
48:24
It's like, well, my company would be worth a billion if it were to sell.
48:28
Um and and even in public companies it's not even real cuz most of the time if you own a ton of the public company, if you were to dump it all, it would massively, you know, drop the price.
48:37
And so, I really think like it's kind of this thing once it's more like this memetic label.
48:41
Once you get labeled a billionaire, it kind of just sticks.
48:45
And people just refer to it. Like I see this a lot.
48:47
Also people people use it as a way to describe someone who just kind of is in a certain class.
48:53
I actually think it's more of a class marker than anything.
48:54
Like you know, he lives a certain lifestyle.
48:56
He hangs out with a certain people. He's like a billionaire.
49:00
It really has nothing to do with with whether or not you actually have a billion dollars or you own something worth a billion dollars.
49:07
And the other um the other is yeah, like cash.
49:09
Like liquidity is so crazy.
49:10
The amount of people billionaires I've that when you're like, okay, could you wire me a hundred grand tomorrow? The answer is no.
49:19
Like it's like I've been shocked by this over and over and over. explain that more. What do you mean?
49:24
So, people who you have read about no cuz they don't want to wire you a hundred thousand dollars. Yeah.
49:30
It's it's it's it's definitely it's definitely Is that the Is that the Can you wire me a hundred? No? Not a hundred man. No, can't can't do it. Bro.
49:42
But no, like people people don't keep a lot of cash.
49:45
Uh and and it it really is like one way to look at this is in like a party seed round or whatever.
49:53
I'm always shocked by like who doesn't wire the money or you have to chase them down or whatever and or they have to wire it in tranches or anything like that.
50:01
Like and I think it's just that cash flow is so far from net worth.
50:05
Um and then and and so like And you had like you had Oh, sorry, go ahead Sean. What?
50:11
Sean, we we have a funny experience with this.
50:12
We were at a lunch with somebody and you were asking them you're like, what level of money made a difference?
50:19
Like where what's the next level of unlock?
50:20
And you're like I sold a company for this much or like you know, you said a number that was like a net worth number.
50:25
And he's like, yeah, that was a good number.
50:28
Um you know, when I was doing that every year then blah blah and he he he was like, wait, annual income?
50:33
You're like, annual cash flow was that?
50:34
Cuz I was kind of saying the whole net worth and he and he was like, yeah, that's what I was doing in annual cash flow.
50:40
And it was very clear that if you had that much in annual cash flow, you essentially had infinite money.
50:45
Well, it was like a we were like, I think 25's like a good number and he goes, yeah, I agree.
50:51
Having that come in every year is awesome.
50:53
And I was like, oh, yeah.
50:55
I literally like in the booth of the restaurant just slid down to the bottom.
51:00
I was under the table and I was just like, oh, what's down here?
51:02
I mean You Did I read that you tried to create some kind of like equivalent like like a chart of cash flow to net worth?
51:12
Yeah, yeah, I thought a lot about this.
51:14
So so part of that is as talking about one like weird thing about Tiny is I've probably talked to three or four thousand bootstrapped entrepreneurs.
51:22
And um the vibes that they give off, like I don't know.
51:25
I've met a handful of billion dollar net worth founders and the vibes between them and someone who makes, you know, ten million dollars a year from their Chrome plug-in or whatever, very different.
51:35
Um and and there's something about like just how free they feel when they have that cash flow coming in because there's two things.
51:43
One is like maybe the net worth never actually translates into cash.
51:44
Um a very funny thing is like all the all the Silicon Valley guys are really when like behind closed doors are really um envious of the New York hedge fund guys cuz they're so liquid.
51:56
Like they might not actually be as rich per se, but they're so they make so much cash that it's like it may as well be a whole different thing.
52:03
Um How much do the hedge fund guys make in New York?
52:08
Yeah, this is another hot take which is I always when I started getting interested in making money, it was like the most common thing you hear is you cannot get rich on a salary.
52:14
Like you got to own equity.
52:16
You got to own a business.
52:19
I In New York, there are lots of guys lots of guys making five ten million.
52:24
There's people making a hundred million.
52:26
I've met one guy at a big hedge fund As what?
52:27
As like a like a portfolio manager? Like a bonus?
52:31
Yeah, there's there's there's at least one guy out there who like makes a billion dollars in in annual compensation. Um But what's normal?
52:37
Like let's say you're you're you're hanging out with your New York finance friends.
52:40
It varies it varies a lot.
52:42
Uh but in a good year like an analyst at a big hedge fund will make three to five million dollars.
52:49
Um and in a really good year it can be a lot more than that cuz usually it's a it's a percentage.
52:53
And um you know, like being being a senior person at a big fund or whatever, you make a lot of money and you kind of take no risk in some very real sense.
53:03
Um And so I think like that was certainly certainly surprising to me.
53:08
And yeah, just to like come back to the cash flow thing.
53:12
I certainly like Andrew was always such a cash flow person and and really like in Canada at the time like there was just no funding.
53:18
So you just had to live or die off cash flow.
53:21
And it's it's I think it's more instructive to think about money in terms of in terms of cash flow cuz the other thing is when you have a net worth like say you sell your business and you just have a bunch of cash.
53:32
Even if like psychologically Sam, I know you're a big on the like money psychology stuff.
53:35
The idea that you're living off a fixed or finite amount just really changes how you view things even if it's a ton of money versus this idea of like I make, you know, whatever, a hundred thousand dollars a month or whatever.
53:48
Just the idea that it just comes in, it like it's endless.
53:52
me and Sean have this good friend who sold a business and he walked away with sixty million dollars and I go, that that feels awesome.
53:57
He goes, it feels horrible, man. I go, why?
53:58
He goes, I'm a brown immigrant. I need cash flow.
54:00
If I don't have cash flow, I feel broke.
54:03
I need money coming in every month. I can't spend this.
54:06
I think we should wrap it up.
54:08
Uh Jeremy, where should people find you if they want to get more of you, follow you, become big fans of you? Where should they go?
54:13
Uh Twitter, Jeremy Giffon. Um my DMs are open.
54:18
Um yeah, that's the best place. Awesome.
54:21
Thanks for doing it, man. Really fun hanging.
54:22
Thanks for having me, guys. That's the pod.