[Music] today on the podcast we have Dr Langer scientist inventor and entrepreneur and one of the most cited researchers in history often called The Edison of Medicine Dr Langer is one of nine Institute professors at MIT which is the highest honor that can be awarded to a
faculty member Langer's research laboratory at MIT is also the largest biomedical engineering lab in the world with over $10 million in annual grants and over 100 researchers he's written over, 1600 articles which have been cited almost
half a million times Dr Lang has also received over 220 Awards and served as chairman of the FDA science board its highest Advisory board for over 10 years what makes Langer so special is that he is not only an academic but also an entrepreneur and he's repeatedly turning
Frontier science into groundbreaking companies with patents licensed or sublicensed to over 400 companies he's also the co-founder of multiple companies most notably modna which discovered the covid-19 vaccine his work specializes in biotic fields of drug
Delivery Systems and tissue engineering he was the pioneer of delayed release medicine and it's calculated his work has impacted an estimated two billion lives helping those with cancer Burns heart disease spinal injuries and more and that's before the madna covid-19
vaccine was developed the purpose of this podcast Dr langis is to talk about um giant ideas and you've had I think a lot of giant ideas in your life but we'd like to maybe anchor the podcast in in the metag giant idea um of your life which seems to be turning applied
science into products that have a huge impact positive impact for the world what is your secret to success when bringing science from the lab to real world impact yeah well I think actually so we I think we've help start 40 companies and I think there's 400
licenses or subes licenses but I I don't know that we have a particular Secret Sauce I've a been very very fortunate in having great students and postto work with me and and they really are probably the most important aspect of the secret sauce but if I were to look back at me
personally you know what I did which was unusual for somebody who at at in 1974 when I got my doctor is all my friends in 1974 pretty much went to work for oil companies that's what chemical engineers did then and I wasn't excited about that and I went to work at a hospital and I
was the only engineer in that hospital and I was fortunate to work with a a man a very very Visionary doctor named Judah folkman and I would say that that experience of being in the hospital for a number of years and still today I mean I'm still actually on their board at
Boston Children's Hospital but I think they that exposure for me uh to First knowing something about Engineering in the first place and that then getting this kind of direct exposure to surgery Labs uh and other and Medicine in general that that really
I think changed my life and it gave me a perspective maybe that was different than most chemical engineers at the time now fortunately there's lots of people who are you know because we train them you know my graduate students and postdocs and many other people do too
but I think that those two things having great people having and having um that kind of exposure uh and and and tied to that exposure of course is wanting to do good wanting to improve People's Health wanting to make everybody's life better
and writing a paper well that's one thing but that's not the same as getting a product out that can help people absolutely one of the things that really struck me when I was reading your bio was the fact that you were sort of unusual in applying chemical engineering
to the you know Health biomedical space and it's often this kind of you know intersection of of two perhaps somewhat seemingly disciplines that you know creates new Innovations that's often what happens in in art as well so that that really struck me so do you think
that that that sounds like you agree that was a pretty important part of What's led to this I I I absolutely I absolutely do agree with that yes again reading your your biography it seems like you've shared you know your your fair share of um of rejection when you
were getting started you now have honorary degrees from 36 universities but your first nine Grant applications were rejected and you've also mentioned that you know when you first started um you know securing these patents other scientists actually look down on you for
that so what have you learned about convincing others of giant ideas and really pushing through uh those types of rejection yeah well F first I think maybe the internet didn't do so good on the honorary degrees now it's up to 42 but uh but that's not a big deal um well
and and you're right I so what and I think probably that's another thing I I I might have said earlier about secret sauce or whatever I probably looking back maybe it was implicit in what I said not going this to the standard route of what a chemical engineer does
like work in an oil company you know 50 years ago but I probably took what people would call risks I you know and and I failed many times which is part and partial of I think taking risks and got rejection a lot of times which I think is
too I really I don't agree I never agreed with the people that told me my grants were good enough to fund but what I learned from that experience is how to deal with rejection and how to deal with um when things don't go well and I think
it's very important I've often said that people successful people are ones that know how to deal with failure well dealing with success that's easy dealing with failure that's that's a much harder thing to do and if you let failure beat you you know you won't do so well so you
have to keep trying and not giving up easily totally agree I mean it's not everyone fails it's really about how quickly you can you can pick yourself up so kind of zoning in a little bit on a couple applications that you've developed out of Langer lab um I want to
talk about the applications of controlled drug release um you've developed ways to control the release of large molecule drugs over time and these this is now used by 300 companies and featured in about a thousand patents what application of this science are you
most proud of well I suppose given what's happened with the covid vaccine that that it would be that you know that it enabled things like or helped enable lots of other people made great contributions too but I I think it helped get you know I I think our paper
was the first to show you could take in nature back in 1976 was the first to show that you could make tiny particles in this case polymer particles and and um deliver nucleic acids so I so I'm I'm proud of that but I'm proud of all these things you know now you know different
different microparticles or anop particles are used not only for covid vaccines and hopefully soon for cancer vaccines uh but they're also used to for treatments for schizophrenia they're used for ways to prevent bleeding to prevent opioid addiction uh to you know
to deliver all kinds of molecules for for treating cancer like glutening hormone releasing hormone analoges they're and they're not just used in medicine they've been a big part of aquaculture uh you know which is now a quarter of a trillion dollar industry
industry you know for you know to help fish in different ways and and other areas too so um I I basically am proud of the fact that it can be used to help a lot of people and probably even many more in the future you're the founder of tissue engineering in the field of
regenerative medicine uh tissue engineering for those who aren't aware is using materials and cells to create any new tissue and organ what do you think is the most exciting thing that will happen in the next 10 years in this space well I think a few things uh you
know one I'm I'm hopeful that blood vessels one of my former fellows Laura Nicholson she was a full professor at Yale and started this company humite humite is making a number of tissues and organs uh one of them are are to create new blood vessels right now that they've
finished phase three trials and are at the FDA I hope it will get approved at some point but already it's being used to treat uh you know soldiers in the Ukraine who have been badly wounded you know to give them new blood vessels so I
I think that that's one more um you know immediate uh uh application that that I hope will happen I I hope there'll be many others too I think it will not just be um you know new body parts so to speak like new blood vessels or or new skin which is also you know now now used
but also to create organs and tissues on a chip which someday May reduce an animal testing reduce human testing and accelerate drug discovery that must just be incredibly satisfying to to hear those stories sort of about you know Ukrainian soldiers or yeah that's such
an unusual experience for most most people yeah well it's it's it's I think it is a thrill to see um you know very important to see these things help patients help people you've been involved in founding many companies including at least a dozen acquisitions
by companies like Johnson and Johnson and uni lever so what advice would you give to Scientific co-founders who want to transition out of the lab take a scientific idea and turn it into a business It's always important to have good patents you know good intellectual
property you know one of the things that some academic people don't do is write patents you know I remember I got a call you know from a group of people really outstanding scientists at uh Harvard and Stanford who had made you know a major
Discovery published it in nature and they were trying to start a company and they told me well they weren't able to raise any money I said but boy the work you did is terrific you know it's it's outstanding I said I I don't understand why you're having trouble and they said
well what happened is is we you know did the science and we published it because we wanted the world to know about it but we didn't write a patent and now we can't get one because we already published it and they said every investor said well now that it's
published anybody can do do it and and so why should we fund you and and so I think really getting by the way I think it's I'm all for letting the world know I mean I think that is the right thing to do and and Publishing things but I think you also want to write patents if
you're trying to achieve what you just said because investors will not give you money uh especially in the medical area without you know patents so that's one piece of advice that I would give you that I'd give them the second is that
it's a team effort you know and when I've gotten involved starting companies I mean I might be able to help on some of the scientific things but I've worked but the companies where we've done well I've also worked with very very good business people Good Financial people
Venture capitalists good CEOs uh good regulatory people I mean it's so it's it's a real team effort are there any downsides to patents I've heard some people be somewhat critical of them and you said in your earlier in your career some of your fellow scientists
criticized them so what would be the downside of of being patent focused well I I actually feel that it's still I mean how should I say this the downside that people might say is that if you have patents then that prevents other people from doing things the
problem in the medical area is you won't have to worry about people it just goes back to the example I've gave you unfortunately the the patent uh you won't get the the money I mean I can't imagine any invest investors have a choice right I'll pick the United States
you could invest in the next Facebook or the next madna while Facebook you know does has done pretty well they didn't have patents and and or maybe they have some but it doesn't really matter right that's not why they're successful but if you didn't have a patent in the medical
area you don't have to worry about the problem about somebody else using it because it won't exist I mean and and really again just to take the co example you know no large company in the world got involved in messenger RNA really the two companies that made this happen that
took the risk that did get venture capital or did get Investments two tiny companies that never existed before one was madna which you talked about which I helped get started and the other was bio entech in uh in in Germany and they that
it's those two companies no so you know you could just see millions and millions of more people would died if those companies hadn't gotten started and the investors wouldn't put in you know money if there weren't weren't patents I mean
I know that personally from Mna now of course today there are politicians that that will say sure you should give it away for very low cost but the problem I have with that is the next time there's a crisis well those why why would any investor invest in those companies uh so
I I I think that's just really important to to realize and how expensive you know course unfortunately billions of dollars to you know to make these kinds of Investments so I think it's it's very hard I I'd add one other story that you know I know people may follow
politicians in the United States who make those kinds of statements about giving things away free so one when I I there's a lecture I once gave on or I've given on patents and what I mentioned in that lecture and it's a little bit self-serving to the country the United
States when I say this but uh I the story I tell is there's a a a politician in the 19th century and someone asked this politician this 19th century us politician what were the most important things in history his answer was the three most important things in history
were the printing press the the founding of the printing press the founding of America and he said in the patent and and and the patent system and that politician was Abraham Lincoln I like that think it's a little bit better as a politician than Bernie
Sanders or some of the people that say the opposite thing and I think his impact on History uh and every way shape or form will will certainly surpass you know at least most American politicians or not all that I've seen yeah so one of
the things that people I think forget is that the the M mRNA um Discovery and the covid vaccine was discovered by two very small companies it was sort of a classic case of VCH Capital entrepreneurial drive you know the the the vision of a true innovator and that's what led to
saving millions of lives around the world um and I think it's important for people to to know that story you do have a very interesting position at the intersection of Science and business I think similarly as you kind of cross field with chemical engineering and
biology you also cross disciplines with science and business how do you balance the game of science with the game of business or do you think of them as very separate and you sort of you take care of the science and other people take
care of the business well I I think of it as a team effort I think it it you know first in Academia it's just science and and and teaching you know working with students and hopefully training Future Leaders um in in in the companies it really is a team effort I mean
everybody pitches in I might know more about science than some people other people know more about business than I I do other people know more about Regulatory Affairs or clinical trials than I do or but it it ultimately is a team effort you know I've been on
scientific advisory boards I've been on Boards of directors and you know I just try to do my best even at the things I don't know that well but really I I think you ultimately these things are a team of people working together and and
and that's makes them work it's yeah at the end of the day it's teams people coming together around a vision though I have heard a lot of compliments around your leadership style which is described as you know um sort of clear and direct but also very supportive yeah I think
that's fair I mean that is what I try to do I I want people to know right where they stand and where I stand but I I believe in you know when you're doing really important things people should understand that they're doing really important things and they can really
make a difference in the world and and any finding you know that even a small step forward is is is important and that failure is okay is there anything that you regret putting into the world despite its success well not I I really don't I mean I think that I I again that's I'm only a
part of you know any any thing that's good of course can probably be twisted and used for things that are bad um but I still believe in in the human race overall for doing good you know so I feel like when I look at the new medicines that we've played a role in or
even other things we've played a role in We've Ended up playing a role and as I mentioned aquaculture we' played a role in certain types of cosmetics in nutrition I I all of those at least are intense have been to make people happier or healthier and I I like to think that
that they have that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are going to say covid vaccines are bad or that you know but I don't think that what they do I don't regret it because I feel they've helped many many more people I mean I certainly never want to see anybody
suffer um but I I just feel again it goes a lot of it is your point about people understanding the risk reward ratio you you've had a really um interesting seat both as an innovator and entrepreneur and also you know chair of The fda's
Advisory Board there's a lot of criticism about getting drugs to Market that you know the most expensive part of that process is the clinical trials and perhaps there's some perverse incentives from the farmer companies who want to keep that expensive because it kind of
creates a a serious moat for them what what do you think about that well I think really the reason I think things are slow um is caution and and and and sort of the what should I say the Mandate of the hypocritic oath of verse Do no harm other words I think that the
FDA and I think other regulatory authorities too are are cautious and want significant in clinical trials to know that that things are safe before they ever approve them and that to me has been the number one cause for slowness and also
I'd say the number one cause for the giant expense um so I I mean and and it does again get to the risk reward ratio there have been times in history Co being one AIDS being another where I think those th people and again probably to your point about risk reward
ratio because the risk was so terrible that sometimes they move faster uh but I think in general even in diseases like cancer a lot of times they will not um I mean one could argue with that but you know maybe you should move that risk
reward ratio differently but I I think it's I I I I think it's right I I don't think that by the way pharmaceutical companies want the thing the trials to be that expensive I almost everyone I think it is I mean I think it must be I mean only because I mean even if one
was interested in making more money I mean they would be interested in Faster approvals and and and they would be interested in lower costs so they could spend it on other things whether it's making new drugs or or whatever it is that they' spend it on but their their
earnings would be higher so uh which their stocks would go up so I I don't think that that's the case I mean my feeling when I talk to people work at I mean I've heard all kinds of conspiracy theories but my feeling when I've talked to people at pharmaceutical companies or
any medical thing I mean pretty much everybody's doing it because they want to see people's Health improved and they believe in what they're doing I mean myself I mean I I goes back to what I said earlier if I was a person would I feel more fulfillment working at a
company that was trying to make a drug or or device that would save people's lives or would I feel more fulfillment at Facebook well I I at least for me I would rather spend my time on trying to help somebody be better educated or or live longer I'm not trying to put
Facebook down per se but I just feel that that's a comparison that that that uh that that I would make uh shifting gears a little bit uh you said you had issues paying attention in high school which is I think a common reframe for people who go on to do very interesting
things and that you think potentially you had add uh do you think this add has played a role into how such a prolific inventor you've been you know that's that's a very interesting question I don't have what I'd call the control experiment to know
that one way or the other um spoken like a true scientist I don't yeah I I I really don't know I mean I it may have certainly people have said things like that but I I I really I I just don't know well enough I mean um whether it it did or it didn't I I wish
I did I mean I I'm definitely because of add I'm a multitasker but really I think the inventions came from Curiosity driven research and and wanting to do good in the world this is a question I'm I'm excited to ask but you said in in certain interviews that when you're a
student you're judged by how well you answer questions but in real life you're judged by how good your questions are so what is a question you're grappling with right now well there are a lot I mean that we're working on you know we're
actually when you mentioned we talked about tissue engineering before we're trying to and and I don't want this to sound like too much science fiction but uh we're working with leeway Sai at MIT and I have a postto Alice Stanton trying to make a brain on a chip you know and
you can even make these personalized but the reason we're trying to do it I mean it's obviously not a real brain is there's so many terrible brain diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and uh and uh you know L Garrick's disease which is ALS and and many others and I
feel like if we could do this you know we might be able to make you know really you know hopefully change that Paradigm of of of brain diseases and discover you know new things in the brain and and and and maybe new drugs someday so so that's
one example but there there are a lot of things we're working on in the lab we're doing a lot of things with the Gates Foundation to create new medicines and better nutrition for the developing world and and and and lots and lots of other things too I have over 100 people in the
lab so we have quite a few questions for ask wow is that the next Frontier brain chips I think it could be other people are working on things like that too uh you know a lot of it's been what we call organized we're we're we're trying to you know create a you use tissue
engineering approaches to to create this but we see Alice has done an amazing job and how about nanot Technologies I mean the whole area of nanotechnology and Drug delivery I mean that's been a giant area that we've worked in for many many years um the kinds of things we're
looking at there uh some with Dan Anderson who was one of my former posts and now professor at uh full professor at MIT are are creating nanop particles that can Target drugs to specific tissues um drugs to to develop uh ways to make better nanop particles including
using artificial intelligence approaches to figure out what the best lipids are uh trying to make better nanoparticles that might give higher antibody tighters for vaccines uh and and and and and lots lots of other things too amazing well
you turned down 20 jobs at Big oil companies when you graduated from MIT and I think uh the whole world is very happy that you did that and ended up uh doing what you did instead um 700 people attended your 70th birthday that's a sign of a life well- lived uh what do
you think's unique or different about you that has made it possible to live the life of Dr langa well I've been very fortunate I I'd say on the professional side you know working as a post-doctoral fellow at Children's hospital with Judah folman who I felt
was a great man and really a great mentor and a Visionary scientist uh certainly made a huge difference to me being like I said the only engineer there in the mid 1970s I learned so much uh that I think would affect my whole life um I also have been very fortunate
to have had a number of very very good friends who were very supportive to me when things weren't going so well I have a very fortunate family life I had a you know Wonderful dad uh you he passed away a long time ago but he got me excited
about you know math and science and my mom who's just a super nice person who just passed away earlier this year at a little bit over a hundred uh years old and finally my wife Laura who's you know I I mean she has a PHD herself but she's a great person and I think you know the
fact that she has is has a scientific background even though you know she does a lot of Art and other things you know I think I she understands you know what I like and some of the struggles that happen and so I I feel like been really lucky all the way around and she made
you be home at 700 p.m. every day that was that was a critical Factor as well well that's right she want to make sure that I was there for the kids not even for her but she's uh been incredibly supportive and and I finally said you know I'm very fortunate to have
gone to Great Schools like Cornell and MIT and Harvard Medical School I also uh read that your productivity um in terms of Publications sees a exponential increase the year you married your wife which I thought was um very nice touch yeah and I didn't realize that
myself one of my posts former posts pointed that out what do you think about the state of science today um in the US specifically uh it seems like some people are you know challenging science at a fundamental level well I I think the state of
science is is is very good I think there's a lot of great science going on in the United States that doesn't mean there aren't people who don't understand science and who put it down I mean certainly that that does happen too but I think the state of science I I think
it the kind of science that I see going on at at the different universities and uh and at the companies in the US I think is is terrific and I still think is I'm not I'm Prejudice maybe because I'm from the US but I still feel that it's the world leader in terms of
turning out really good science by almost any measure but that doesn't mean there aren't going to be Skeptics and there aren't going to be people who want to put it down and you know AI is obviously making huge leaps forward uh how how is langa lab going to integrate
AI into into what it's doing is there a world in which you know 10 years from now it's you and two researchers and a very very clever AI yeah well I always feel with AI first I I I I feel like it's it's something that a lot of I mean just because of the
media I think you people sort of think AI just happened I mean AI has been around for 70 years at least it's just a lot of it at MIT what's happened is of course a couple years ago you see this spectacular demonstration of chat PT which can you
know you know do things and everybody sees it and they think now ai is going to change the world and AI is very important it's been very important before you know but I don't think it's going to and we do use it I mean we've used it way before um chat GPT I mean
we've used AI to help you know figure out uh you know to design better drugs to design better drug formulations and we continue to use it uh MIT has put uh a lot of effort actually and money into creating a college of artificial intelligence and you know I think that's
certainly well worth educating people in that but I still think what'll happen 10 years from now and even more is people will still play an enormous role you know but but but AI will enable us to do things faster and better and I mean I think that's a good thing yeah I think
one of the things as you said it has been around for a long time it's really the as much about the massive increase in in data and computing power that's enabled chat GPT as it is in any kind of you know fundamental te logical breakthrough well that's correct but but
my feeling is if you look at the computing power you know what is it Mo's law you know you you look at that I mean this is not new either it just you know it's just kepts keeps going up up up and as continue to go up up up and will continue to do so in my opinion so uh
that that so that and that will be helpful in terms of enabling things to happen like I say faster better and so forth depending on the area you also need to have good data to to use it appropriately in science you it's not going to do something out of thin hair
absolutely and have have the Arts influenced you know your work in any way I listened to your desert island discs and approved of your music taste but I'm wondering if if you've pulled any inspiration from that well not me personally but there's
an artist that uh comes to our lab deut stri and and she um combines a lot of things in uh science and art and and and she sometimes asks me about things and she's you know doing different AI things in the art area and uh you know she has she has a lot of
very farsighted ideas and you know a lot of people there's a lot of I would say negativity sometimes today about the state of the world uh but you know objectively science has made fantastic progress over the last 50 years the quality of living in many ways is is
better than it's ever been what your your take sitting where you do at at Langer lab is the world better 50 years today than it was 50 years ago I I would say so uh I remember actually when I was in Sweden having dinner with Hans wigel he used to be
president of the Carol linski Institute he was talking about a book uh that one of his colleagues wrote you know that examined the state of the world over time and I think you see it in almost every way getting better and better because of advancements in science and
technology and you know better public health and almost in every way and I I think that that is true yeah and I think in in some ways your langa lab is this fantastic microcosm it is a giant idea but you see uh you know hundreds of small giant ideas start as ideas and
then go on to have these big impacts so um you probably have great faith in humanity because I think you see what it can do every day yeah I I do have great faith in humanity I'm not I I certainly know that not everybody does but I I just think you know that that science can do great
things and people can do great things at at every level and make the world a better place what would you tell your grandchildren about you know pursuing their passions or uh you know figuring out um a path which would hopefully be as fulfilling as
yours well I think you asked the right question and I always tell people that that pursuing your passion is the important thing you know whatever your passion is I don't think it matters as long as you it's as long as it's doing something good and I when students come
to my office I've had students come to my office and say well I'm majoring in this and I don't like it and I want to quit and they say I say well you should you should do what you love I mean I don't that simplistic but then what I was going to say is I said well why do
you feel that way why why you hate it and you don't like it why you keep pursuing it and they say well my parents said I should do this because I'll make more money doing it and to me that's not a good reason for doing something I mean I think that I mean obviously you need
to make a living but I think pursuing your passion I think will is is is the most important thing you can do in any area you know like I said for me I picked by far the lowest paying job of any that I got offered you know after I got my
doctorate but I'm glad I did it changed my life and and so that uh you know and I feel like it made it much more fulfilling and I think whether you go into the Arts or anything you do I mean restaurant you know there's so many ways you can feel happy and you should do the
things that make you feel happy I wonder why that that still is such a a thing you know everyone knows that you should you you are going to uh probably Excel more and have a more fulfilling life if you follow your passion but the the the
advice from so many parents does remain you know uh pursue something that's going to make you a lot of money so I just wonder why that sticks around even even though we know it's probably not great advice well I think you you know your parents are always concerned about your
security maybe they I think that's just a natural thing so you know when yes that's right but but I think you you know they they want to make sure that you're not out in the street Dr Langer I think um you've been so generous with your time I've had a fantastic uh time
speaking with you it's been a real privilege uh please continue to uh deliver the likes of Mna to the world and uh we'll be very very grateful well thank you for having me and you did an excellent job on on your questions thanks so much thanks so much [Music]