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I feel like people don't talk enough about things that actually matter in building a business.
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I think capitalism rewards risk.
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You need courage to make a leap and actually commit to these ideas, to take real risk.
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You need to not know what's going to happen genuinely.
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So you're you're going to discover something new.
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You can fail in a way that feels scary or maybe associated with shame.
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And when you're doing that, you're genuinely about to discover something new.
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That's [music] when you can take real risk.
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>> Can you describe the the long strange [music] journey you've been on of like why you started and then what it was like to exist and have done some interesting stuff when this thing happened and then how you took advantage of it.
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I find the two chapter story so so interesting.
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>> We started with the really abstract ambition of how do we give the power of programming to more people?
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My co-founder Nikolai and I were really we'd like worked in product even though we both studied engineering and we were trying to build I think it was really just hey, you're in the 21st century.
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You have computers that can do things for you and if you can't tell them what to do, then you can't capture any of the value that's being created.
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And we had a lot of ideas and we wanted to build them and every time we tried to build something it was taking so long.
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I was also starting to play around with producing music and I really like tools like Ableton Live. I have an idea.
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I can extract it from my mind and into the machine.
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Um and we were also in this uh kick of like looking at the history of computation and things like in the 1960s like the mother you know, the mother of all demos just seeing the fluidity of the interaction between you and a computer needs to be super fluid for it actually to lead you to the next stage of thinking, right?
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You need like low latency between I have an idea it happened and um and because we were coding we felt kind of that that adrenaline that everybody's feeling right now, right?
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Which is hey, I can tell the machine to do something and it does.
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In the 21st century, it really is like the material is computation.
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It's kind of like if in the past it was oil, you know, or steel or whatever it is, today it's computation.
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Um and so the more we can give that to more people, the more interesting things happen.
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Um the more egalitarian it is.
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Um and so it's almost it's kind of interesting because that was our desire.
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And there were no LLMs, which actually we started off by thinking about the terminal and we're like, how do we reinvent the terminal where, you know, engineers are spending all of their time?
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And then we're like, well, that's just going to speed up engineers.
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We need to find something that gives that power to more people.
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In 2017, we started thinking, do we give it to consumers or business users?
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We ended up deciding business users for a variety of reasons.
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Um and then within that we're like, okay, which department in a business actually has a ton of ideas but isn't able to execute them.
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Um and landed on kind of like sales and marketing, where we think people are really creative but they don't have the ability to turn a lot of their ideas um into reality.
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I'll give you one example that's real today that is kind of wild, but we have one company that sells to businesses that have a lot of garbage, right?
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So now they're using Google um what's called satellite view to see which areas have a lot of accumulation of garbage and then they kind of figure out, okay, that's a good business to sell to.
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So that's an idea that you might have, but it might be super hard to execute that at scale.
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And now something like Clay can actually translate that for you.
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Because of that, because of the whole intention around Clay was how do we give the power of programming to people, that's kind of how the name came cuz we're like, okay, it's go to market but now you're an engineer.
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And so we came up with that before it was really possible to um you know, use LLMs to fully code, but it was how do you systematically think about a problem and break it down and then execute it.
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Um and I I think we've also kept that ethos in the company.
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Um and that's what makes us really different than everybody else in our space.
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Uh there are little simple things that we've been saying out loud, but I think people don't really believe that that's why it works.
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So one is it's a creative task.
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And so if it's a creative task, we need to leave it somewhat open-ended.
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A lot of companies that counter position to Clay or in the space are like, "Hey, what you really want is sales people are people have literally used the word coin-operated, right?
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And so what you need is something that's super easy to use.
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It gives you the answer, tells you who you're selling to and what you're saying, and it just works."
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Um whereas we think you always need in sales or it's to find go-to-market alpha.
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So like, how are you different than everybody else?
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Otherwise, it's just noise.
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And then Clay, in order to do that, you need to have a really powerful tool that allows you to experiment quickly and try things out and see what works.
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And then and so we built that instead, which was very counterintuitive.
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>> Describe the takeoff of chapter two of Okay, now LLMs come out.
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Sort of what happened in what that moment felt like, what the sort of subchapters have been since. >> Yeah.
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What's interesting in that story that I that is maybe worth talking a bit more about is that it wasn't um as simple as you know, like this was back in 2022 and we we hadn't made a decision to say, "Okay, we are targeting kind of go-to-market teams, specifically sales, specifically we're going to start with outbound, specifically we're going to start with people who want to get data from lots of different data providers in order to do outbound.
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Um and in in fact, it's going to be agencies and not startups.
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And we're going to do a lot of what we're doing and support them in public and build a community.
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So, we took a lot of decisions that I think were non-obvious.
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Um and the main thing that happened was really the courage and commitment, I think, to making those decisions that actually allowed the company to take off.
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Cuz the company was already taking off before like Chat GPT came out.
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And we were well set up to include kind of like LLM LLMs in Clay because one, we were set up to allow any integration to anything, and two, we were a coding-like product just designed with go-to-market primitives.
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Um and so, as soon as we had LLMs, it just boosted everything.
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There were three kind of like core assumptions that we made.
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Um and I actually think this is how to build a really big company and one that grows really quickly.
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So, we went from 1 to 100 in 2 years.
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But that wouldn't work if the if we weren't pointing in the right direction.
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So, you need to kind of set everything up so that you're pointing in the right direction so that when the wave comes, you go with it and you're not fighting it.
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So, for us, we made a couple decisions.
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One, people in go-to-market are creative, and so we're going to give them the most powerful tool.
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If you are going to give the most powerful tool instead of the kind of like the most simple out of the box tool, then you need to find the right customer or user for it.
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And for that, we said, "Okay, we're doing it for RevOps."
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Um which is a an existing kind of role.
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And we're going to call the subset of um or the the the word jobs to be done go-to-market engineering to give it um a framing, right?
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This is the tasks to be done are all the things that you need to do like the activities to grow your business, right?
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Remove kind of any obstacles to growth.
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Um and then the last part was we're going to charge uh for usage instead of proceed because we're trying to get more productivity.
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And so if you have fewer people, we didn't want that to be something that, you know, is is an anti-incentive for us.
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So if you just look at those three decisions, actually almost every other decision in the company falls immediately out of those.
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That anyone can come up with what we should do next if you believe these three things.
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And I think that's the best way also to run a company that's growing really quickly is because I have to just communicate to you these are the three things that we're assuming and whenever you're making a decision, check to see if it works within these three cons I mean, I feel like people don't talk enough about the things that actually matter in building a business.
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I had this dream actually where um it was kind of like a vision where I saw like lots of statues in a like kind of like modern city, but I was wondering like, oh, we don't build statues anymore.
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If you look at like old kind of like republics, they would have statues for concepts like courage or, you know, um integrity or whatever and there were like gods for these different things and I feel like we've forgotten that those are the things that actually these abstract kind of ideas or justice or, you know, whatever it is that matter in the moment when you're building a company.
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It It was actually, hey, you need courage to make a leap and um actually commit to these ideas and then see what is the logical conclusion if we take these ideas seriously all the way to the end.
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>> Most software companies try to maximize your time on their app to juice engagement.
9:38
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9:40
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9:46
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9:52
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9:59
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10:07
OpenAI, Cursor, Anthropic, Perplexity, and Vercel all have something in common. They all use WorkOS. And here's why.
10:11
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10:21
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10:21
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10:28
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10:46
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10:55
For me, three key things differentiate Rogo.
10:57
First, [music] it connects directly to your system, so it can work with your actual data.
11:00
Second, it understands your workflows, how work really happens across a deal or an [music] investment.
11:06
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11:14
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11:23
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11:27
>> If you can put three statues off the elevator in the lobby, what three would you build?
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>> Courage, because you it's it's I One thing that I that I think a lot about is like real I think capitalism rewards risk more than anything else.
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It's not I think a lot of people think it rewards It's like meritocracy.
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There are a lot of people who are working really hard or hard work, which I think is silly.
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Um there are a lot of people working really hard and not making a lot of money.
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Um so it's not hard work.
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There's some correlation there, but it's definitely not just that.
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It it doesn't just reward kind of skill.
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Again, there's a lot of really skilled people.
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Uh there are people, you know, who do things that I can't even dream of, you know, they're you're eating a sword or you're like juggling and they're not making as much money as someone doing like a YouTube video.
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You know, I just it's clear again that that's not the case.
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I do think it rewards risk.
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Um which makes sense as well.
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I don't have like a strong comment on whether that's good or bad.
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I'm just trying to figure out what actually happening. And so >> See. >> to take real risk.
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And then there's a lot of people who think they're taking risks, but aren't taking real risks, right?
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I talked to one founder who was like, you know, went to a good school, then went to YC, and then was telling me about his company, and he's like, "We serve sales and we serve recruiting."
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And I was like, "You have to pick one."
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And this is where you're actually providing value.
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In picking and and actually committing yourself um to serving some group of people in some specific way.
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For me at least, my definition of risk or how I've experienced it is you need to not know what's going to happen genuinely.
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So you're you're going to discover something new.
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And you also need to have I think it needs to be coupled with a high potential for shame.
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It needs to be you can fail in a way that feels um scary or maybe associated with shame.
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And And And when you're doing that, you're genuinely about to discover something new and learn from it.
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And that's that's when you can take real risk.
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And to do that, you then need to have many traits. One of them is courage.
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Let's take justice for a second cuz I I want to live like in a stable society that allows me to kind of like have the time and space to think of things.
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I think you know, and and just to explore like, you know, the world is pretty crazy.
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Um I went to see this movie uh called Stop Making Sense.
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I was uh downstairs like in the movie theater and I was I had like a joint that I was about to smoke and I was trying to light it up, but I didn't have a lighter.
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And so I asked the guy uh who was standing there.
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I was like, "Hey, can I borrow your lighter?"
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And he was like, "Sure, can I ask you a question?"
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I was like, "Yeah, of course."
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And he was like, "What is this?"
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And I was like, "What do you mean this whole thing?"
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He was like, "Yeah, what is this?"
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And I was like, "Well, that's a big question."
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>> I haven't even smoked my joint yet.
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>> Like, well, I mean, if I was just kind of like thrown into this and I was like, "What is this?"
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I think like the world is a mysterious and kind of like amazing place and I feel like there's so much to know.
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We're just kind of like starting to make progress on like how wonderfully weird it is.
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Um and we should be spending more time like like exploring that.
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Um and And to do that, I feel like we need stability.
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So, and and to get stability, I think you need to have justice between people.
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I think there's no way no stable way for some group of people to dominate others. Um it just doesn't work.
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No matter how strong you think you are, um, the other person is a tremendous nuisance, you know, if if they feel like they're treated unfairly.
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So, there's no stable configuration around that.
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And if you're thinking about the economy, um, or like countries, there's no way to you can't bluster your way out of it.
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You can't say we're the strongest.
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You have to do if as soon as you start even when I'm saying that, right?
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Like I have to remember when I have power over people, you tend to be like, they must do what I want because I want them to cuz I control this.
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It's just not a stable configuration.
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You can get by for a little bit and then you get tremendous pushback.
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Um, so I think that having the value of justice um, one thing I think about is like, how do you treat people with respect and fairness all the time.
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Um, in every situation, whether you're hiring them or firing them or you're disagreeing, right?
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Over what they should be doing.
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So, I think that that maybe is what's fueling kind of this democratization, right?
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Like you want to even people are stable in a place where they feel like they have the opportunity to get what you've gotten to as long as there's some kind of like fair chance for that.
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Um, and they're okay with what they've gotten if they feel like, hey, this is what's available to me at the moment.
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But it's also just as a side note, I think this is just kind of like an internal thing that I've had.
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Like I used to play soccer and even on my team, if I feel like we fouled the other team and we could get away with it, I would have like a really weird thing of like integrity just feels off.
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>> Do you have a sense of where that came from?
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>> It's some kind of like intuitive knowing for myself that it's like I'm a long-term greedy person, you know?
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And this is kind of what one of the things we talk a lot about at the company is like, how do you be long-term greedy?
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And I think the only way to be long-term greedy is to stay in integrity for people to feel like there's a all the way along and that way you can Yeah, I think it's also just like a belief in yourself, right?
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You don't have to cheat in the like short term to get something. You're going to win.
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Maybe one small thing about this is like if you Let's say you're playing a soccer game, you feel like you cheated or like this wasn't fair and then you won, it doesn't feel as good.
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So, I I did hear the your like interview with Brian Chesky's the um like the statement he made around, you know, the getting to a hundred billion dollars and um >> Feeling like >> I Yeah.
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And I I I actually felt like I related and like we're obviously in a much, you know, smaller spot, but even early on when we raised our series A um I remember having that sensation of like, oh there's no if you're doing this to get adulation or to get uh p- you know, prestige or to make some money, there's no end to that.
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It's kind of like an empty thing that passes.
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Um you the only judge of anything is yourself and your own kind of self-respect.
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Um uh and so you have to be doing it so that you feel like what you've done is interesting and worthwhile and you you know, when you're an ambitious person, your judgment is actually way higher than anyone else cuz you know everything that you're thinking.
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And you know everything everything that you've done.
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So, I know everything that I'm thinking about or doing and my kind of um standards are higher than anyone else.
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>> There's this thing I like to do where when I spend some time with somebody, I wait an hour and then I write down notes in my phone cuz I want I like I like benefit from the hour of like it it's like a cleansing function or something.
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Like whatever lasts in my brain through that hour like I want to write down.
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When we last were together, this is the one thing I wrote down, which was this notion of optimizing for self-respect over everything else. >> Yeah.
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>> Um, as like the North Star for behaving.
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I'm curious how that relates back to I will get to truth in a second, but how that optimizing for self-respect relates back to risk and courage.
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Like do you think those things are related?
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And and and the question behind the question is like how do you think it's possible to help people become more courageous and take more risk?
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>> I think I think in order to do that, you just need to understand your mind and your motivations more and be more honest about that.
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It's very hard to admit to yourself, I think, you know, why you're doing something.
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Are you doing it even if you look at the narratives for companies, none of them have any relation to the motivation the motivation of the founder and I think probably the honest story is like a mixture of things and we don't talk about that in public, right?
20:03
So, I think if you for me, for example, it's like why am I building a company?
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Um, and do I think that I will be more liked or loved if I, you know, do something that is a success at a world-class level, right?
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Um, and can I get that now? Right?
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So, I've had friends come up to me, they're like, "Hey, I don't care if you succeed or fail. I love you."
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And I was like, "Wow, that's actually helpful.
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I didn't think it would be, but it's like, well, I'm that that's feeding kind of like some part of my desire must be fueled by that, but I can get that right now.
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And now I can start to take real risks where I'm thinking about the business and not trying to fill this like particular need.
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Um, you know, VCs have this common trope that is "Hey, we invest in someone that has a chip on their shoulder, right?
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Or has some kind of lack that they're trying to fulfill."
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Um, and this is common across like creative work.
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The trope is like you're depressed or you're anxious or whatever and you're trying to fill that and you're actually afraid to lose that depression or anxiety or whatever it is because you feel like you'll be less productive or like creative.
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Um and I had the kind of like through my journey I had this moment where I was like, "You know what?
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I'm not going to create from a place of lack anymore."
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Um and I went around uh probably pretty annoyingly telling people, "I'm I have everything I need. I'm good." >> Post lack. >> Post lack, yeah.
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And um it's a great negotiation leverage cuz there's nothing you can give me. I feel great.
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Uh I'm already complete, you know?
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And from there you can still create.
21:43
I think people are misunderstanding um like tremendously misunderstanding this in in my opinion.
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It's kind of like well, if we had if we were in a post-scarcity world, no one will do anything.
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Everybody will just be hanging out.
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I was like, "Have you been to Burning Man?
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People are still doing stuff, you know?" And they have things.
22:03
I think you can create from a place of wholeness and in fact you will be less destructive in the world.
22:08
Um So, I I think you'll create less damage because you're doing it now because we keep thinking here like, "Hey, let's think of our customers.
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What are we trying to give them?"
22:19
Stop thinking about other you In an organization you could There's so many other Why do people keep saying customers first?
22:27
It's because when you're in a company, things start to happen where it's like this person's thinking about their career or this person wants to please this other person.
22:34
They're not thinking about the customer.
22:35
They're just thinking about the internal dynamics.
22:37
The more whole you can be, I think the more risks you can take and the more courage you will have because you have nothing to lose.
22:45
>> It's funny to me that perhaps the most interesting duo in modern business history, Jony Ive and Steve Jobs, were like almost undoubtedly creating from this generative place.
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Um I don't know if they'd use the same terminology or something, but you read it all like it's all there. >> Yeah.
23:01
>> And they're the most adored, right?
23:01
But maybe the least emulated.
23:04
It It demands the question the things that got you to this sense of wholeness from this place of lack.
23:09
Um there's been much strange debate about the role of introspection in in business and in general.
23:17
I think naively I would say like it's introspection that's a key tool in the toolkit to get from one to the other.
23:24
Curious what your experience has been or what you would what you would offer about that face change.
23:28
>> I kind of understand actually the the motivation here cuz one thing I talk a lot about here and have thought for myself is the amount of work that's doing versus meta-analysis um it can sometimes flip, right?
23:40
So you should be like 90% of the time doing and then 10% of the time meta-analyzing.
23:48
Sometimes actually at work we've had this happen a lot and I talked to the team a lot about it where people are like, "Hey, what is going to happen in 1 year?
23:55
Or like why are we building this feature instead of that feature?"
24:00
And I'm like, "Is that stopping you from taking the next step in your job?
24:03
If not, then you're procrastinating."
24:05
So I think my sense is his conversation around that is and also, by the way, if you're trying to build I think his example was Walmart, right?
24:14
It was like if you try to build more Walmart's, yes, you should always be thinking about wake up in the morning, build more Walmart's.
24:19
But yeah, at some scale use when Walmart is affecting all of us, if you don't think about why you're building Walmart, you know, or what you know, more Walmart's do to us or to a shared environment, um that responsibility is on you.
24:37
I I I think that the more you make and the more successful you become, it is part of your responsibility back to like all of us to think about what you're doing, right?
24:51
That you're a representative now.
24:54
You're not a completely independent actor.
24:56
And and we have the power to pull some of that stuff back from you.
25:00
>> So, is there anything that you did in particular >> Right.
25:02
>> as just just just about your specific story go going from kind of lack to wholeness, or >> Right.
25:06
For me, I think the introspection is it it was a a journey to kind of understand like why ambition, right?
25:13
So, I was suspicious of my own ambition.
25:15
I was like, "What what am I trying to get out of this?"
25:17
Um and actually, I think part of why the company took some time to take off was because I was grappling with that.
25:26
And that led me to kind of investigate like which parts of me are trying to kind of be expressed through this.
25:33
And that was just my own personal interest.
25:35
I just found that I couldn't just do something without understanding my motivation for it because I was um looking at people who are further ahead in my field, right?
25:47
Like if if you're a great business person or you built a great company, I was like, "Do I want that?"
25:51
What actually I I think it's also coming from like valuing my time and myself really I I was having this kind of experience where I'm like, "What if I took myself really seriously?"
26:00
You could take yourself lightly and just be like, "Well, these are just thoughts.
26:03
I want to do something big, so do other people."
26:06
Or take it really seriously and be like, "What Why do I want to do that?
26:09
What would I actually offer the world if I was able to do that?"
26:12
Um and then thinking like, "Hey, you can succeed and create a lot of damage in the world.
26:18
Um and back to the kind of like I was I think a lot about death, right?
26:23
And like, you know, if you on your deathbed, like what are you thinking?
26:30
What are How does it feel in that moment?
26:32
If you had a moment to reflect and like, who get How do I you judge yourself?
26:35
And for me, I didn't There's like the experience of every day and living a life that you feel is worthwhile on a day-to-day basis.
26:41
And there's also like, how did you impact the world if you did impact it?
26:45
And I wanted to make sure that I felt like I really grappled with that correctly, and I didn't just try to accumulate resources.
26:52
Um and just be like, "Hey, I did something big.
26:56
I accumulated some resources."
26:56
It's funny, it does go back to this like justice principle.
27:00
It's like, if you're going to do something big, you need to kind of think about the consequences of you taking that role. Um cuz it's just a role.
27:10
It's a really cool thought exercise to say, "Okay, play out the thing I'm doing to its natural extreme. Do I want that stage?" >> Right.
27:16
Probably no one does that.
27:17
>> respect like, you know, I had one time where I I remember when I was much younger, I was like, "Oh, like I want to make a lot of money, and then I'll be a philanthropist."
27:23
And I'm like, is that actually useful?
27:24
There are a lot of philanthropists, is it working?
27:27
Or is it just that I want the control to pick the causes that I want.
27:33
Um and on the like uh Well, maybe one more thing on the death thing that I think is kind of interesting was like my own insight that I had.
27:40
I went on this 10-day silent retreat um a while back.
27:45
And it I thought I was going to just go think, you know, it was not that.
27:47
It was kind of like a spiritual experience, and it wasn't um it was called Hirudaya, not like Vipassana.
27:54
And so, Hirudaya's their approach there is like a non-dual approach to meditation, where typically you kind of like meditate on your breath or some object, whereas in non-dual traditions, it's called the direct path.
28:07
And in the direct path, you meditate on the space between the breaths, or you you ask the question, "Who am I?"
28:14
A very frustrating question.
28:17
I would say I would not recommend it.
28:20
But anyway, I'm doing this thing.
28:20
On the fifth day, I have like this big insight where I'm like, I've I figured it out, I got it.
28:25
So, then on the seventh day, I'm like, "Okay, well, what now?"
28:28
You know, I uh I start imagining going back and telling my friends about like this insight, but I'm like, "Oh, I'm not here.
28:36
I'm just imagining the future.
28:36
I'm I kept kind of wanting to go towards the end."
28:41
And then I had this like really big flash of insight that I tried to remember, but it's said whenever you're picturing the future or anticipating the future, you're actually it's kind of like Freud's death drive, right?
28:53
You're actually just the only thing that happens in the future is you die, you know, like the far future, whatever it is.
29:00
And so, you're accelerating that um and as soon as I had that thought, it's kind of the death drive, you know, actually thinking about the future is the death drive.
29:09
And so, I like immediately kind of felt back in my own body in the moment and felt the boredom of where I was and I was like, "Wow, this is such delicious boredom."
29:18
And so, I I finally got that insight, which is I'm so grateful to be bored right now because it's so amazing.
29:24
I also realized that I have this like scarcity, like food scarcity.
29:28
I was thinking constantly about food and where am I going to eat, you know?
29:32
And then I just had this one pea and it exploded in my head.
29:34
I was like, "This is too much. I can't eat anymore."
29:39
But I realized that I have an accumulation tendency where I'm like it's with food, like where's the food going to come from?
29:44
And then the company, I notice I'm like, "Where's the next, you know, AR going to come from?"
29:48
And and I now I'm aware of that and I'm like aware of when I have enough.
29:50
And then I can take more risk.
29:53
I don't need to accumulate something that's way beyond actually what we need.
29:57
>> What was the day five insight or was that at the insight itself?
30:00
>> No, the day five insight is like a momentary experience of like this of like I I understanding what matters or something like that because I felt like, "Oh, I'm I'm connected to all things.
30:12
Hey, I am a component or like a part of this whole thing and I'm connected to all things and they all matter."
30:20
I had the kind of this thought of like, "One, I'm no better than and no worse than anyone else."
30:25
Uh but also, it made me feel like this real empathy when, you know, I see someone who's suffering, they're also me.
30:34
And and not not like not I empathize with them as if I was them.
30:39
I'm like, "This is actually me."
30:42
Um and that that's kind of like a really out there thought or like belief.
30:47
>> Strangely enough, it's actually not at all.
30:48
Like it's like the longest-lasting set of beliefs and the deepest, richest philosophical traditions.
30:55
>> What was crazy wasn't the idea, it was the >> experience.
30:58
>> experience of really feeling that.
30:58
And then knowing that like, you know, when I hear something in Buddhism that's just like freedom of all beings or knowing that um you know, the suffering of one person is the suffering of everyone.
31:11
So back to the justice thing.
31:12
It's like, well, I can't solve everybody's problems and I I and and in fact that would be hurting me to try to help someone when I don't have capacity.
31:21
But to really know like every single person, they're carrying it for me rather than they up or they screwed up and I'm better because I worked hard and did X, Y, and Z. >> Mhm.
31:32
So if we're back to our statues, is that then truth?
31:34
Like is the is the day five insight >> Yeah. >> Is that just true? >> Yeah.
31:38
So I think that yeah, if we go back to kind of capital T truth, it's like really understanding that.
31:44
And then I understand why in philosophical traditions or even in religions they're like remembrance, right?
31:48
Cuz it's like I can I can get that momentary understanding, but then remembering it in the moment when I'm making a decision about my business or about like my personal life is very tricky.
32:01
Um, but I do think that that is what's necessary for us to get to the next stage of like what's interesting in the world.
32:08
There's so many mysteries, you know, like scientific mysteries.
32:10
There's just like so many interesting things.
32:14
Um, and I feel probably like many other people that we're squabbling in circular ways around the same nonsense.
32:22
Uh, truly actually it like my real anger is like, what are we doing? We're wasting our time.
32:28
Um, or we're wasting our like human potential, we're wasting our time.
32:32
>> If I hear and digest all of that, and then I imagine, okay, this guy is now running a software startup. >> Right.
32:39
>> [laughter] >> I I might imagine that that startup is run in some unusual ways. >> Right.
32:45
>> And so I'm curious what those are.
32:45
And and and why you arrived at >> Yeah.
32:50
>> unusual ways of running the business.
32:51
>> It's back to like the meta-reflection point is yes, there are some unusual ways in which we run the business.
32:56
I think it's important to be careful of how much you kind of push ideas onto other people or like project onto them kind of like your beliefs and also to to remember what context you're working on.
33:10
It's almost like telling a story, right?
33:11
Like if you're if this is the normal way to run a business and then you think that it's this kind of like completely bizarro way over here, you also need to take the steps to like tell the story.
33:24
And I think it's the same in like product development, right?
33:25
I can't just give you a product that you have no context for.
33:29
You don't even understand how to interact with it.
33:30
Um so I think it's like, "Hey, these are my personal beliefs that are and my kind of like interest that are underlying some of the normal activities that we do and then there's adjustments that we make."
33:44
I'd say the first and most important way is that it's a felt experience, right?
33:49
In the company um of how we treat people and how we think about uh like their personal development, but there are like concrete ways in which it shows up.
34:00
One way is that we over-invest in things that people typically under-invest in. So, what does that mean?
34:07
Like we over we've over-invested in recruiting, in brand, in content, in community building.
34:13
We've hired people who are very overqualified, you know, um in some of these roles who are doing it for the first time.
34:21
And we've paid them as if they were for example we just actually published an article about this with one person who was an early employee, Mishti, and um she took a content role.
34:32
She would have never taken a content role. You know, right?
34:35
It's typically kind of not the most highly paid thing in a company or it's like you're it's extra and we compensated her like a PM and we're like go do it.
34:42
So, we take those kinds of risks and then we stick with it.
34:44
I think another thing by the way with risks is when when you couple risks and courage, the next part is commitment.
34:51
You actually need to kind of follow through to see what actually ends up happening.
34:56
You can't just quit in the beginning.
34:56
We take that seriously and if we see some somebody is really skilled or has some star potential, we stay with it for way longer than most.
35:07
You know, everybody talks about hiring fast and firing fast.
35:10
We've had people who 9 month in were floundering.
35:14
And we're like this person is excellent.
35:17
I know they are, but what's going on here? Is it the role?
35:19
Is it the context, right?
35:21
Is it our decision making that's limiting them?
35:26
And eventually, I would say we we find an amazing spot for that person and they become a superstar 50% of the time.
35:33
You know, 50 the other 50% of the time, this person might be really special, but we just can't create the conditions for them or they're too far away.
35:42
Like one thing that I've talked to my co-founder Varun is like we're never pissed off when someone doesn't work out.
35:47
We're like, "Hey, you're just we're here and you're here.
35:51
Maybe along the journey one day you'll get there, but you're not getting there fast enough.
35:54
You you don't have what we need at this moment."
35:56
And so, I don't even have a opinion on whether you're good or bad.
36:01
Like this person was like this person was good, this person was bad.
36:02
Were you good in the moment that we needed you to be?
36:06
And actually, you might also be super skilled, but you just didn't perform here.
36:09
I've had people who are incredible.
36:11
I know they're incredible and they couldn't perform here for a variety of reasons and they've gone to other places and done a really good job.
36:17
So, I think it's important to kind of like be nuanced.
36:20
But then you know, there are some other things where I think some of the things that people have covered about us in the past is like, you know, I would like clowning, for example. I discovered clowning. What What's clowning? Exactly.
36:30
I So, when just the word clowning, I was like, "What is this?"
36:35
I think of it as like edgy improv.
36:38
Um there's kind of like four types of clowning.
36:40
Um uh so, there's kind of like physical clowning, which is the one you would imagine when you think of clowning.
36:47
There is uh um like emotional range.
36:49
So, let me make you happy, then make you sad, then make you happy so you can feel the full kind of like range.
36:55
There's the jester, which is like telling truth to power.
37:00
Um and then there's the trickster, which I think is pretty interesting, which is how do I tell you like spiritual truths through kind of jokes.
37:09
Like, you realize, "Hey, everything does change."
37:13
You know, that's like a truth about the world, but I get you to experience that.
37:16
We take kind of like our things like that, or like we're really into magicians at Clay.
37:24
Um and we incorporate it into kind of like uh our events or things that we do, and we take risks.
37:33
Like, our our brand takes a lot of risks.
37:35
Uh way more risks than I think general B2B brands, and it it That's why people love the brand and the company.
37:43
It's authentic to us, but it's also um I think honest. We're not hedging.
37:50
I think a lot of times people are authentic, but hedging.
37:51
So, they're not really saying what they want to say because they're afraid of the consequences.
37:57
>> Where do you learn from magicians?
37:58
>> I actually think the trickster thing is the thing that's been a common thread between us, but I There's this place called 69 Atlantic, and the thing that I remember from the these really like incredible magicians is it's not just like a sleight of hand things.
38:16
There's a storytelling component.
38:16
And I think a lot of them it's kind of wild, but like a lot of them are telling a story of like a deep understanding of like how your mind works or like how the world works or they're like, "Hey, I'm showing you this thing and really what they're trying to do is to spark curiosity."
38:37
And actually we're going to do something about this at Clay.
38:38
Um we're calling it like re-enchanting the world, right?
38:42
Like in a world where there is AI, right?
38:44
It's literally magic in some form, right?
38:47
And to remember that like there's a lot of This is magic, right?
38:51
Like a lot of these things that we're sitting in front of are still magic. It's pretty wild.
38:54
And to kind of like re-enchant the world again and not make it like this boring place where you think you understand how it works cuz you really don't.
39:01
Um and so I think they're doing like simple things to reignite that feeling of like wonder.
39:08
Um and I think if you take that feeling of wonder actually in your everyday um life you're you're you're more kind of like friendly person cuz you're you're not like, "Oh, I understand how this person works."
39:21
I understand how this is You're like more curious.
39:24
Um it makes you more curious about our customers.
39:26
It makes us interact in a more pleasant way cuz we're like, "Oh, there's stuff to learn here."
39:31
So I think what I've been actually getting from this like magic stuff is been like remembering what it feels like to be like, "I have no idea how this is working."
39:38
And I can't even begin to comprehend how to think about it.
39:41
I know that it's a trick but I can't figure it out.
39:44
>> For whatever reason this makes me wonder kind of the same question about music, like the role that music plays and and has played in your life.
39:52
And what you've learned from >> Yeah.
39:53
>> your many many experiences with music.
39:55
>> One of the key things I think with music versus other kind of things is time. Right?
39:59
Like you can't listen to a song without time.
40:03
Time is actually a core component and silence is a core component, like the spaces between things.
40:07
So it's a good reminder that those are like fundamental things that you have to work with. It's a like very Zen.
40:14
You know, it's like where the thing isn't You know, where the room isn't is where we are, right?
40:17
If this room was full of things, we couldn't sit in here.
40:20
And we only think about making things, we don't think about removing things.
40:24
And we don't think about things unfolding, right?
40:25
Like I think video is also like that, but a painting isn't, right?
40:29
It's just you can see it all at once.
40:31
Um So, I think about like narrative, like how are you telling the story?
40:34
How are you bringing people along with you on the journey?
40:37
Um you can't tell everyone everything all at once.
40:40
It's overwhelming cuz you you've had time to process, they haven't.
40:44
Um but the this piece that I was reading, it was talking about endings.
40:49
So, we always think about beginnings, but we don't really think about endings.
40:53
When you're starting a company, you're not like "Well, what about all the people that I'm going to fire?"
40:55
And so many crazy things genuinely happen as soon as you have a large number of people.
41:00
All kinds of people get sick.
41:02
People people's parent, you know, just like you're dealing with a microcosm of humanity.
41:06
You're running like a mini society.
41:09
Um and so, it was like, "Hey, we can look to music to think about the different forms of endings and learn from that."
41:15
So, some songs end, you know, um it's just like repeating and it goes like down in volume.
41:22
Some things end suddenly, you know, some things end with like it's like a whimper or like intensity.
41:28
And actually, you can think of these as like different ways to end something.
41:35
Another one that I think is really cool, an essay that I read that was called um the emancipation of dissonance, which first of all is a really cool title.
41:46
Uh but it was kind of like theorizing the history of music as um a history of accepting more sounds as music.
41:56
So, in the beginning, it was just kind of like maybe drumming or like first it's like the tonic, like, you know, you play the C and then, you know, the C an octave above.
42:06
And then it was adding the fifth, like that's why it's called the perfect fifth and like a lot of baroque music had that.
42:12
And then people started adding the third, which is what creates chords, like minor and major chords.
42:18
And initially that was resisted.
42:19
People are like, "What the hell is this? This feels off."
42:20
But then you add the seventh, where you get jazz, and people were like, "That's unacceptable. Like this is not music."
42:28
And then eventually you start to add more and more tones.
42:30
So this was arguing for not just like the You know, in Western music there's 12 notes, but in um Arabic music or Indian there's 24, and there's other kind of like um scales that you can use that have even more tones. You can use microtones.
42:43
Now that you have electronic music, you can make any kind of sound.
42:46
Um and I I think this idea of accepting more sounds as music um is actually a helpful product principle.
42:56
Um and and just the way of being, where you can start to think like, "What are all these other ways of being that you think are off that actually could be productive or useful if you kind of put them in the right context?"
43:09
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44:14
It seems also like an interesting through-line is in the world we're going into, how important it will be to make people feel something. >> Right.
44:22
>> Um but maybe also something new. >> Yeah.
44:24
>> Like like if we can create anything, like the logos of it all is like, yeah, whatever.
44:29
You can create anything you want.
44:30
That the pathos is becomes really important on top of that.
44:33
And the insights from music is like make people feel something new. >> We use this a lot.
44:37
Like I I'm telling people like, "Hey, we're not building a microwave.
44:41
Microwaves are useful, but they're commoditized, right?
44:43
You just go and say, "Hey, 1 minute, heat it."
44:44
It does what it needs to do.
44:46
There's no difference between most of them.
44:50
But we're building a guitar. Right?
44:52
And it with a guitar, there's just six strings and 12, you know, frets.
44:55
But you could spend your whole life just getting better at that.
44:58
And you can only be playing one type style of music, and it's still like new.
45:03
And I actually think um like if you bring that to sales or like go-to-market things, um it can feel like a crazy stretch, but actually if you actually respect that discipline and be like, "Hey, where What is the ultimate version of sales?
45:24
You need to or like marketing or customer success."
45:26
That's why it's called go-to-market in my opinion.
45:27
It's just like, "How do I take the thing that I made and give it to you when you need it?"
45:34
And that's the I if I really truly was like, "Hey, what's the idealized form of this?" That's what it is.
45:39
Yeah, it's raining, I bring an umbrella. You were like, "Great. Thank you." Right?
45:43
And that's what you actually want to get to.
45:48
And I think there's a place where, you know, I made something, especially as people make so many new things, and you happen to need it, and it's very niche, and I'm able to find you and give it to you.
45:58
And without necessarily manufacturing that desire in you, but ideally like if you need something we can get it for you because we happen to be making it. >> Mhm.
46:07
>> Um and so we're thinking about all of the creative ways to figure that out.
46:13
>> One really interesting conversation you and I have had before is about the role of vision in company building >> Yeah.
46:19
>> and the leader's responsibility or lack thereof to have one in the first place. >> Oh, yeah.
46:24
>> And uh or to have one sometimes. >> Yeah.
46:27
>> I'd love you to riff on the leader's role and responsibility to have or not have a vision.
46:32
>> I think when we were having that discussion too, my my uh instinct is to go one level deeper.
46:39
Actually, let's turn it back to one of our statues, truth.
46:42
Uh you need to say the truth.
46:42
So, if you don't have a vision, then you don't have a vision.
46:47
If you do have a vision, then you do have a vision.
46:48
Don't say something that actually isn't happening.
46:52
Um and that's that's my answer to that is that I do think ultimately you need to kind of have some destination or like some guiding principle or some compass, but you don't need that at all times and you don't need to force it.
47:05
If you just know what the next step is, you should take the next step and sometimes things happen in all kinds of ways.
47:11
You most of medical discoveries are complete coincidences.
47:15
So many of like the most advanced things that we've got here, I don't know, the cosmic microwave background.
47:21
Com- complete coincidence.
47:23
You couldn't have gone out and said, "I want to discover the cosmic microwave background."
47:27
And there's so many of these things, and so I think we're telling ourselves a a story that is not true about the nature of discovery and how it happens.
47:36
And I think we do a disservice to everybody when we go back and retell the story in a way that is not honest because it confuses the people who are on the path of figuring it out.
47:45
So for me, um I think I'm I'm a much more honest version.
47:51
Let's say you're starting a company and you don't know what to do.
47:52
So many people have that problem.
47:52
All the stories of greatness are like, I was 13 and I um was this one thing and then I dedicated my whole life to it.
48:01
And I think that happens and it also happens in other ways.
48:05
>> So, sort of optimized for discovery rather than destination would be like one way to think about it.
48:09
>> I would say leave the space for the opportunities to discover.
48:11
If you do have a vision, you should be clear about that um and clear how confident you are in that.
48:17
And if you don't have a vision, I don't think that's a problem.
48:21
Um I think you can take the next step and allow the vision to come.
48:25
You know, um the Native American traditions that I don't know why this is relevant, but it it's coming up for me is like there are things called like vision quests where you go and fast for a few days and you're asking for a vision. Right?
48:36
And I think, you know, the sometimes you need to do things in order to get the vision of what you're supposed to do.
48:45
And and by And by the way, in companies, it also could change over time.
48:49
So, you might have a vision and then either the vision is wrong.
48:53
A lot of companies who started 5 6 years ago that are kind of confused now because things have changed.
48:57
Well, it's time to change the vision.
48:59
And you don't need to settle on a new one immediately.
49:02
You can say, "Hey, we don't We don't actually know what we're doing right now."
49:06
Um and we can take the next step in what we like the immediate next step in what we're doing right now and wait to receive that vision.
49:15
>> Do you feel like you have a vision right now? >> Yeah.
49:18
Right now, I feel pretty clear that about >> So.
49:22
>> uh and within the like scope of what we're doing, like what the vision is.
49:26
We're basically just helping everybody every company in the world find who their best customer is and find more of them and accelerate that.
49:34
>> What about the notion of wealth?
49:34
Like you've also in these chat two chapters had this interesting experience of um now because of Plate's success, you've achieved a level of wealth that by any measure is, you know, extraordinary.
49:46
What has that process been like and what is it What is that taught you?
49:50
>> The initial thing that I had thought was true is true is that there's no like amount of if you're not kind of like feeling whole in yourself, there's no amount of wealth that fills that.
50:03
Um It It It doesn't change that because you know, it's a it's a it's a continuous kind of like competitive game, but I think what material kind of like like abundance gives you is the like reality also of your time back and I'm choosing for example to build this company. I don't have to.
50:21
I don't need it to succeed more.
50:23
I don't need to like make more money or whatever it is.
50:24
I'm choosing what I want to be doing with my time.
50:26
Um and that is like it goes back to the kind of like that truth part.
50:33
It's like really empowering to I don't I can make my own choices and I can test things out in the world and see if they work or not.
50:40
Um like I'm not scared or worried about what happens, but I also needed to have that point of view in order to get here.
50:48
So, I think having the opportunity to like choose what I do with my time um and to like take bigger swings just it feels really important and then it's like what responsibility do I owe back to society?
51:01
>> You also once said to be that all problems are communication problems.
51:05
I'm curious how you've gotten better or what you've learned about not falling into that trap.
51:10
>> It's not that all problems are communication problems.
51:13
Like we might have a disagreement or different needs, but often uh we can't resolve it because we're not uh like we're making assumptions about each other.
51:24
We're doing like all kinds of like game theory things about what would happen if you did this, if I did that.
51:28
It's kind of like in negotiations.
51:30
Um you might have different [clears throat] strategies, but my strategy is to be as clear as possible about what I want, what I think you want, assuming that you are really intelligent, can read kind of like and have access to the same information as me.
51:45
who, need to know what you want and what are the options available and then we might still disagree, but at least we are disagreeing from a place of clarity rather than from a place of misunderstanding.
51:56
Let's say we're asking someone to leave Clay.
51:58
In in in most cases, as long as the person is kind of like in a shared reality with us in a way that um is based on clear communication, right?
52:10
Like, "Hey, do you think it's working here?
52:12
I don't for these reasons. What do you think?"
52:15
And maybe you're like, "No, it is working." But I don't know.
52:16
Let's just say, "Okay, let's let's kind of like bridge the gap because we can get to a place where it's like I don't want to be giving you negative feedback every single day."
52:24
At one point, I told someone, "Hey, listen, I've lost faith in the ability for you to bridge the gap."
52:31
And I'm the CEO, so it's it's it's not a good uh like situation for you.
52:35
It doesn't make sense, right?
52:38
And even if you think you can get there, I'm taking responsibility for that.
52:43
I'm not saying that this is rational even.
52:45
It's just I I can't do it. And that's it.
52:49
And so, in that case, it doesn't really make sense um for you to continue working here and I want to share that with you because I'm like you know, it's I want to be like direct and clear about it and also own up that this is my call.
53:02
And I think a lot of people actually really appreciate that and they're just like, "Okay, I get it.
53:06
That doesn't I wish that it was different, but I it it's not, so I'm going to do something else."
53:11
Most times, if someone's leaving, what are they worried about?
53:13
They're worried about what are you going to say in the future to other people, right?
53:17
So, I tell them, "Hey, if someone calls me up, I'm going to say it didn't work in these ways, but I think these are their strengths.
53:22
I think here are the gaps that we have in our organization that didn't support them."
53:28
How do you not think about that, right?
53:30
Like, when I call up a reference, it's like, "Can you tell me what was wrong with your company at the time?" Cuz it wasn't perfect.
53:35
It's always about someone else is obviously not true, right?
53:37
Like, there are times when um my management skills weren't there to like handle this particular person or the company itself was um, not working.
53:47
And so, it creates a really bad vibe for everybody inside.
53:52
When things are working, things are working.
53:53
When things are hard, only a few people can handle that.
53:55
The reason I'm saying these things, by the way, is I'm like, these are the things that I think are actually interesting through So, part of my experience of building a company was I I just wanted to know through building it and being given the hard choices of how to relate to people or like, you know, given a quick profit versus a long profit, what would I do?
54:15
And like, what's the experience that other people who are making these choices are facing?
54:20
And I think we're not talking about these things because the risk is too high, right?
54:26
Like, if I talk about what I'm doing, you know, in a company and like, how I'm treating people, maybe someone will sue you or like, I don't know, someone will lose Customers will lose faith in you.
54:36
But, actually, these are kind of like the interesting things.
54:38
I really feel like companies are built through um, rules of thumb, where I'm like, "Hey, how do you scale from 100 to 300?"
54:45
And then I talked to five people who've done it, and they tell me.
54:49
And by the way, I've done things that are completely the opposite of that, and it's worked.
54:52
And the reality is, when you're going from 150, for example, to 300 people, you don't want to take the risk of doing something new.
55:00
You're like, "These people did it."
55:01
But, then you're going to get the same problems that they had.
55:05
So many people told me there would be all these weird problems scaling 50 to 30 300 people. None of them happened.
55:08
We have some other things that happened, you know, but I didn't have the typical problems cuz I didn't do it the typical way.
55:16
>> As we approach the end, I one more question about endings. >> Yeah.
55:19
>> Uh, I'm realizing I take a lot of notes after our various meetings over the years.
55:22
The first time we met, the idea that I remember writing down was that you would you told me something like you wish that there was something like a death doula for companies. >> All right.
55:30
I'm just like, why are we not talking about whether it is good to scale like, every business.
55:38
Every I mean people talk about it a little bit in this like really boring super worn out way of like should you raise VC capital or should you I don't know like bootstrap.
55:49
Completely not interesting like actually ways of talking about it but it's like as a bit as if you I don't know if you had like a donut business, should you try to scale it?
56:02
What does scaling it entail?
56:02
What do you lose when you scale it?
56:04
Should we be as a society incentivizing all businesses to scale?
56:08
And we all know this problem which is like hey this restaurant was really good now it sucks.
56:14
So because I think there's a life cycle to things and maybe part of this meditation retreat and thinking about the death thing I've been thinking about like is there a life cycle to companies and should we just be okay with that?
56:25
I'll I'll pick Microsoft for a second is just like you have an initial put a computer on every desk. I remember that mission. Right?
56:33
When I was a kid and you did put a computer on every desk.
56:36
But now the mission is devices and services and you know do do cool things, right?
56:41
The idea of a company I think started in the 1500s.
56:43
I think it was the what East India company or something.
56:47
So it's like you you get together for a purpose and then you do it and then should you disband or should you keep like the minimal number of people?
56:55
I think the crypto people have had some of these ideas.
56:58
Okay, you built the layer now you move on to the next layer.
57:00
I do think it's worthwhile as all of this disruption is happening to start thinking about like the new ways of doing this. I'm curious about it.
57:07
But it's just a death doula for companies is hey if your company has achieved its mission, should we help it pass?
57:14
Maybe it should have children and like people come out and they do cool stuff but maybe we can institutionalize these things rather than trying to scale things that become zombies or become worse versions of their former selves and then complain about it when we're incentivizing everybody to scale no matter what.
57:31
>> Uh when you and I are together, I feel like we always talk a little bit about clay and a lot of bit about even more interesting things.
57:36
And clay is very interesting. >> Yeah.
57:39
>> This has been yet another example of one of those conversations. I've loved having it.
57:42
When I do these, I ask everyone the same traditional final question.
57:45
What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you?
57:49
>> The one that's coming to my mind immediately I've already mentioned actually, but it's uh like if few friends have come up to me, especially when uh clay before clay succeeded um and we're like, "Hey, you don't need to do anything.
58:01
We just love you anyway."
58:03
And then I realized, "Oh, I also don't want like I don't care what they're doing.
58:08
I don't care what they achieve.
58:09
I just implicitly like this person and love them."
58:11
And knowing that I had that and then I could give that back to myself as well without any achievement um cuz I think like my childhood wondering was feeling like I must achieve in order to have like care and love.
58:26
And I was like, "I actually don't need that."
58:27
It created a ton of clarity where I was like, "I'm doing things because I want to not because I need something from it."
58:34
Clay is just the output of a lot of like thoughts and things and we're doing it in a way for me, I hope, where I'm not attached.
58:43
Um I'm not attached because I don't need anything from it.
58:47
It should just I want it to evolve the way it wants to evolve.
58:51
>> [music] >> Thank you so much for your time.
58:53
>> Yeah, thank you, Peter.
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