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Hello everyone and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler.
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Today I'm chatting live and in person with Chris Arnady.
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Chris has a long interesting and varied history.
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He started with a PhD in particle physics from John's Hopkins.
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Was then a bond trader on Wall Street for about 20 years.
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for about 20 years. had a lifec course shift around 2011 where he started traveling around lower income America and he became quite famous for what you might call photojournalism uh his writings about lower income America and also Trump voters he
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published a very well-known book called dignity seeking respect in back row America he is now uh I would say obsessed in the good sense with a new project which is walking both walkable and non-walkable cities throughout the world and he writes a Substack about his walking and his travels. Chris, welcome. Chris, welcome.
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Uh, thank you for having me.
1:02
If you had to live in either Beijing or Shanghai for 10 full years, which one would you pick and why?
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You know, I thought I was actually thinking about that a lot on the airplane, I couldn't come up with an answer.
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I think Beijing um ultimately because there is just more there.
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Um, Shanghai I had a better experience in.
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Um there it it felt a little more I think the reason I liked Shanghai more initially was just because of my location.
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I had a good good location.
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I was right next to People's Park and I kind of had a good four or five days.
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Beijing grew on me with time though.
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Uh I just thought there was just more there.
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I think I would much prefer Beijing.
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It feels more intellectual and there's a greater variety of Chinese foods there. Yeah.
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you know, the the the the food part I I didn't do as much time as I usually do in a city when I was in both Shanghai and Beijing.
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I usually try to spend at least 10 days in a place and in both cases because of visa constraints, I was um I was there for six or less days.
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Um, but the food thing to me was interesting was I felt very much like what I had hoped to find in China, I didn't find, which was I thought I was going to have like a Taipei like experience where there was just going to be a variety of different foods all over the place on the on the streets and I didn't.
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I end up finding that it was just I was eating in mall food courts.
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Um, and that it felt very sim like there was a lot of diversity there, but it felt very hard to choose because there was just all crammed together in these small food courts.
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If you had to explain the fundamental difference between the residents of the two places in as small a number of dimensions as possible, how would you explain it to an outsider in those two Beijing versus Shanghai?
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Um, I don't have a good answer to that one because I don't feel like I know it well either of them well enough. How would you do it?
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Shanghai, what is status is money and conspicuous consumption.
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In Beijing, what is status is power.
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In a funny way, that intersects with making the city more intellectual, having better bookstores, and having ties to more of China.
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Shanghai is more tied to the outside world, which is maybe better for the city, but for me makes it less interesting.
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You know, it was interesting because I I didn't get as much of a sense of those places as um as you as you did.
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Um I felt the overwhelming feature to me and what kind of frustrated me in some ways was how similar Shanghai and Beijing were, that they were kind of inscrutable to me at the at the at the level I do things.
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Um, and a lot of that to me, you know, maybe the way I I approach kind of learning, which is just simply walk 15 miles.
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And they're not particularly walkable cities, right?
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And you know, that's one of the things I've come to have to deal with in my project is, you know, I walk to learn, but some places that's not the the actual right approach.
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in Beijing and Beijing just felt, you know, the the um and in both cases what I the analogy I use cuz I I walked, you know, 15 miles in in Beijing or 50 mi in Shanghai and I kept on saying that it felt like I was in one of those cheap cartoons where the background kept repeating.
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Um and if it was kind of frustrating to me in the sense of I didn't feel like I got a sense of either place, at least at the granular level like I usually do from from when I do what I do.
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And I don't know if that was kind of intentional is that's what kind of how the cities are designed to kind of like you know to to be uniform to kind of to to remove any differences.
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I think parts of Beijing are designed to discourage protests and demonstrations and that correlates with being hard to walk.
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It doesn't explain the whole pattern.
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I mean I think that there's a lot you know I was thinking in particular of that um that that approach when I I've been reading James C.
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Scott who who writes a lot about kind of the idea of kind of you know control uh or um regulation as control or top down regulation as control and that's certainly the case in Beijing where you like you know gone are the small winding dens of kind of small neighborhoods because those are hard to control.
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They're much easier if you replace them by you know 50s story towers with a mall next to it and surveillance. Yeah. And surveillance.
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And so what struck me when I was in Beijing is not so much the difference between Beijing and Shanghai, but how how how top down regulation is is often designed, you know, very intentionally for control.
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And you you know, Beijing in particular, you know, feels that way.
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Um, and that's kind of what frustrated me initially was I I had just kind of said, you know, because I kind of do all these uh these these trips kind of on something seat of the pants.
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I just do, you know, so I landed and I said, I'll just walk to Teneman Square.
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Well, that you just can't do that.
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You know, the thing is I did that once, but it wasn't easy.
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I got there even though I didn't I had found out along the way that you had to I went through six security checks or five security checks and I was supposed to have had a QR code where I signed up for it and I didn't I just kind of like walked by.
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I just you know so I kind of came up with what I wrote about was there being kind of what I call a totalitarian anarchy which is there I think they intend to be controlly but they're just don't pull it off very well.
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Like they're just too incompetent to pull it off.
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So, um, there some of that's a bit deliberate, though.
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I I think they feel that if people have a sense of partial freedom, they can control them better along the dimensions they want to.
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And they're probably correct.
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I mean, that's kind of what I thought about when with the firewall, right, which is, you know, everybody has a VPN and everybody knows everybody has a VPN or so so that they there really isn't a firewall.
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But it's kind of like it's kind of like, you know, the idea that you you regulate people by by making sure the people who are the most ignorant can't possibly deal, you know, like the people who who don't have enough get who can't get enough together to figure out how to get around it don't get around it.
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And the VPN's also a way to monitor them, right? Yes. Exactly. Yeah.
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You can't actually trust the VPN supplier.
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I don't like to be conspiratorial because I think that's often wrong, but I did notice my VPN kind of clunked out at very odd moments.
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Like I I I was there during the actual election and um during the the the I was the US election. Yeah.
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During the and when I was following I noticed that my VPN went out at very inopportune times like when you know when there was kind of stuff going on that probably wouldn't have been fun to watch or wasn't convenient.
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So you know um but it's an So you think that actually the loosey goosey approach is actually intentional?
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I'm not sure they have the option of cracking down entirely, but I think they have come to terms with the partial controls and they found that it's still working and until it start it's not working.
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Don't try too hard to fix it.
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What do you think ultimately is driving them though?
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Like what is their goal here?
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Well, when you say them, if you mean the the CCP, the inner committee of the CCP, I think it is to make China quote unquote a great nation again, to drive the United States out of Asia.
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to have much of the world cow out to China to have China be rich, never democratic and stable.
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Now, all that together is probably impossible, but it's not a crazy set of goals. They're not my goals.
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I mean, what struck me was, and you know, one of the things I wrote about on both of pieces was I just kept thinking of, you know, them as a guardian class kind of incorporating Plato's republic.
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you know that they really do think of themselves as kind of as the guardian class whose goal it is to build the best society.
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Um I just don't know what they're working towards because if they're working towards kind of you know a fully material um increasing material wealth they're going to they're doing that they're doing well but if the end point is some place like Korea Korea is famously not particularly happy. Yes.
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like so, you know, I don't think that's their goal, but I think they want China to be happy enough.
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I don't think they're not altruists.
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I just think it's a very nationalistic view of altruism where Chinese lexically come before other considerations and anyone who's ethnic Chinese ultimately falls under their purview, which is also different than say an American view.
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I mean, I I I I'm going back again because I find it so fascinating because I don't understand it to the well to the degree I feel like I understand other places.
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Like other places I come away with a pretty pretty quick sense of describing a town in some ways, but like both both Beijing and Shanghai just felt a little bit and I don't know maybe it's the scale because again it's they're not really smart places to walk, right?
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I find it's oddly like America in a number of ways.
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I think you've written about this too. Yeah.
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uh inward-looking, large, self-confident, businessoriented, pretty friendly, pragmatic, but I think a lot of the CCC CC plan is improvised rather than planned.
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So something like the fertility crisis, I think they were not expecting really no one was.
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They don't know what to do.
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They'll try different things.
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And the larger the scale at which you operate, the more the so-called plan just becomes improvisation.
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And again, it's also it's, you know, it's it's it's both the, you know, the problem that comes with top down management, which is sometimes you just get it wrong. Yeah.
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You just get it wrong, you know.
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So, and I think they're definitely afraid of disorder and civil war given their history in a way we are not.
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But to me, what's interesting about it is to is how explicit the top down organization is at at kind of at at the built level as well as at the cultural level.
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like everything is micromanaged.
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But you know, again with a loosey goosey approach to give a little bit of wiggle room, but like you know the image I will always have of at least Shanghai, one of the initial images is how um you know cuz I Taipei Asia has very rambunctious cities and a lot of the the the kind of what I like about Asian cities is they have kind of an organic street life um kind of low regulatory um organic street life that is gone in China.
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And so I, you know, I to have gone from like Taipei to to Shanghai to see that and um that lack of organic street life is intentional and like they like we don't like this, you know.
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Um and so they there was this neighborhood I was walking through Shanghai where they had bought up the entire neighborhood.
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It had been an old neighborhood and it was going to be de slated for development into kind of a business park style living and they had replaced um where there had been stores with murals of store life.
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Like you know it was like it's just kind of too too spot on for what they're doing which is replacing take removing actual organic street life and replacing it with cartoon images of it.
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You should try Kuning by the way if you haven't been there.
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It still has organic street life as does much of western China. It's more fun.
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It feels less authoritarian.
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I'm going to Xian next trip.
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That also has organic street life.
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It's a bit hard to It's a bit harder.
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The further west you go, the harder it is to get a visa. Yes.
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But you should be able to get to Kuning without problems.
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In Shian, try the cherries. They're fantastic.
12:15
Now, which is more interesting in a major Chinese city? A McDonald's or a KFC? Kentucky Fried Chicken?
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Um, I I'm going to, you know, everybody told me KFC and I suck with McDonald's.
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Um, because of my past history with McDonald's.
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Um, but what struck me about Beijing and China both in cases was it's the one time on my trips I famously have become kind of online the McDonald's guy because I read a lot about McDonald's in US and the role of McDonald's in the US.
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And whenever I go overseas, people expect me to use McDonald's, but I just don't use them.
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Um, because people don't use them there.
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you know, there's alternatives in Japan is 7-Elevens and izakayas and, you know, and um other countries as other forms of kind of what I would say kind of third spaces, organic third spaces.
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Um in Beijing, it was McDonald's like it. And it was interesting.
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It served the same role it does in the US for very different reasons, which is in the US, McDonald's is the place people go because it's the one function because it it's functional relative to the to the to the neighborhood.
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neighborhood. um McDonald's and Beijing people go because it's dis dysfunctional relative to the neighborhood in terms of um in terms of regulatory rate like you just can go and relax and um people say that I I did I went I went to a few KVCs use a bathroom but I do not I
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don't like fried chicken I just do not like it I don't like fried foods in general so I didn't really spend time there I just found myself spending a lot of time in the McDonald's and and and Kore and China and um you know for I find them to be really wonderful places. My favorite McDonald's in the world is
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My favorite McDonald's in the world is in Auckland, New Zealand, which is the world's largest Polynesian city.
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And McDonald's there often serves as the center for Polynesian gatherings, not just imagine that. Yeah.
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But Cook Islands, Tonggins, Fiji. Yeah, I can see that.
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And if you're ever in Auckland, it's a phenomenal McDonald's.
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You know, the the mixing that takes place in McDonald's is just just, you know, is absolutely amazing.
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you know, is in the US it's it's absolutely amazing and um and it's similarly across the world.
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Um but again, other a lot of other countries have have other things that serve that role.
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And so where's your favorite McDonald's in the world?
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My favorite McDonald's in the world, um the one I probably use the most is in LA. I But where in LA? Um in West LA, East LA.
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Um it's on um I don't remember the name of the street.
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A lot of my book was written in it.
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Um it's it's kind of one it's kind of in the um Mexican East LA Mexican neighborhood.
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I forget that should be a good one.
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The name of um the name is of the street is is on the tip of my tongue.
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of my tongue. But um it's just you know there's there's just a organic life there that uh is just absolutely wonderful and I I just learned so much in that you know I was cuz what when I when I was in the US doing my project um I would literally just sit in McDonald's at night and type up my notes you know um and that's where I got so many of my stories would ultimately come from from just being in McDonald's for not trying
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to get stories um and it's funny to look back on that that period because you know when you realize I just I I would take, you know, when I was doing this project on addiction and and poverty, I would talk to people and then
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I'd meet them in McDonald's and then I would take them outside the McDonald's to photograph them because it just didn't seem photographic, you know, like but then I was like, "Wait a second. This, you know, the fact that every I'm
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This, you know, the fact that every I'm meeting everybody in McDonald's, that's the story."
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And so, um, you know, it's it's just such a great community center um for so many people.
15:44
Why is Soul, South Korea, possibly your favorite city?
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Um, it's got a it's got a functional dysfunction.
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It's a little bit more dysfunctional, a little more less uptight than than Tokyo, but it has a lot of the same positive qualities of of of Tokyo, which is it's very it's very safe. It's very efficient.
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Um, it's got a amazing food scene if you like food. Um, it's very active.
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Um, but it's a little bit quirkier to me than than Tokyo and I feel like it's a little bit um less known and I kind of enjoy that.
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Um, but also um you know I just find um they when I when I when I when I'm in a place I like to get into a regular walk and they just have a happen I have a 10-mi walk that I absolutely love.
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Like I just do it every day when I'm there.
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It's along the It's along a um a revital it had been an old drainage ditch and they turn it goes underneath subways and it goes underneath um interstates and now it's just this beautiful um reclaimed 10-mi walk.
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What I like there is that the food scene is not Instagrammed to death.
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So, you can find an obscure place that's more or less undiscovered and it can be very good in almost any neighborhood.
16:59
I the you know the the in I was thinking about someone asked me about the best food and I think if you measure the best food by the kind of the median food like you know um I I actually think Japan is still higher than Korea that way and they have the worst food also. Yeah. Yeah.
17:16
They they you can get some really disgusting things. Disgusting.
17:19
I I had a um I had the night before got on a 15 hour flight I got I had a um I had chicken sushimi.
17:28
I there should you should not have chicken shashimi.
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You should not have chicken shashimi. I refused. I saw it. I know.
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I I didn't I I had two pieces down before I realized what it was.
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And um I'm like, "Okay, if I'm going to die, I'm going to die." Um but it wasn't good.
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Like even for the risk, even for the risk, it wasn't good.
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Like, you know, I'll take a risk if something tastes good.
17:47
Um also, some of the fried foods Japan, Japanese have is just just Koreans have some weird food.
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like they they they put um like you know, one of the things I like about seven about Japan is I can go to the 7-Elevens and get a good sandwich. Yeah. Very good food.
18:02
The sandwiches in in and the Korean 7-Elevens have a lot of sugar in them.
18:05
Like sugar when mixed with ham, things like that.
18:08
Um but I I actually think Japan has better food than Korea.
18:12
But I agree with you that the Korean the Korean food scene is less understood by the West and I think it's less precious.
18:20
Um and but you know some of the best food I've had in the world is in just small pl small small places in Japan that are just you know off the beaten track. Yeah.
18:30
Now in evaluating cities how much do you take weather into account?
18:34
So I went to Soul at the end of November which is not even the worst of the winter and it was awful. It was truly freezing.
18:41
I I love cold weather though.
18:42
So, I was just in Seoul uh three days ago and it was when I got up in the morning, it was 18 degrees and I love that.
18:50
So, I like cold weather, but I I if you don't like cold weather, don't go to Seoul.
18:53
Like, um it I mean, and the thing is the the wind the winds come off the mountains and it's really cold.
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Like when the winds come off, it's it's just really bitterly cold.
19:02
And how much do you count air pollution for?
19:04
Because that's going to hurt China, right? For walking, especially.
19:08
So, I actually put together a metric on walkability.
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Um I had I think seven eight categories and I put climate climate climate and crime and pollution are are are three big factors like I think people don't forget about like you know I I famously rank um relative people people got on my ass for right for ranking LA relatively high as a walkability.
19:30
Oh I put it near the top. Yeah.
19:32
But it's got great weather like you know and um and if you can deal with some of the distances involved and l and lack of density it's just a really wonder it's got a mass a fantastic bus system that you know part of the part of being able to walk is when you choose not to walk you can just jump on public transportation.
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So it's got a ubiquitous bus system that can get you pretty much everywhere.
19:53
It's got great climate and it's also just um it's just it's just a visually impressive city.
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It's got you know good it's got good skies.
20:00
It's just like it's very enjoyable place to walk and it's got an amazing food scene.
20:04
It's got a better food scene than almost any place in the US. Sure. Yeah.
20:07
So, I once walked across Sa Paulo which in retrospect was insane. I wouldn't do it today. Yeah. That's not That's tough. It's tough. Yeah.
20:15
Um do you remember which direction you walked?
20:17
No, but it was a very long walk and then you know the murder rate then was much higher but street problems were much less frequent.
20:28
You know, I've always found that I generally a lot of the locals tell me not to go where I go and I've never had a problem.
20:36
I think if you are I mean I have zero you can look I have zero jewelry on. I never wear jewelry.
20:41
Um I um I dress very simply.
20:44
Um and I've just never had a problem.
20:47
Um, and you know, I think Latin America is one of the few places and Latin America and Africa are some of the few places where there are real problems and you do have to have a little bit of common sense, but um, you know, I've I walked all over Lima, Peru when I was told not to and I was fine. That's okay. Yeah.
21:04
But what what's your nomination for the least walkable city?
21:06
I mean, um, Phoenix is pretty bad, you I I um but in in the rest of the world um where where what was what was the lowest ranked on mine?
21:18
Um I think it's Dar is your lowest Dar is but I don't find that so bad.
21:20
It was partially the heat.
21:23
Um and also there was a safety issue which is it's not um in it's not actual violence.
21:27
It's um it's just the risk of a miscommunication going very badly.
21:33
Um cuz when I when you're the only when you're in a neighborhood where you they haven't you know a slum basically where you're one of few white people it's it's not that I feel threatened by being robbed.
21:47
I feel threatened that something it can be just miscommunication like why are you here? What are you doing here?
21:52
And so that can spiral out or really control if you don't if you don't speak the language.
21:55
Um Dar was really really tough.
21:58
Um Kala was really tough to walk. Why is that? I've never been there.
22:03
Again, these are cities that are not meant to walk.
22:06
Locals don't walk them, you know, and so people would look at me like I'm crazy.
22:10
Like, so um and part of the reason there because first of all, you can jump on a hack bus.
22:14
Um so why would you walk, right?
22:17
Um or the boa boas, which are you just jump on the back of a motorcycle, which I won't do.
22:22
I did it once and I'm like, I'm not doing this.
22:25
This is this is just a really dumb risk.
22:27
Yeah, I wouldn't do that.
22:27
It's like it's I almost got killed in the first time I did it.
22:31
Um but they do it and so consequently people there's not much there's no walking infrastructure and when you do walk you're at risk of being hit by a boat to boto or like or or like um you know people will walk out of out of necessity um but um there's just no infrastructure absolutely none and then you you have you're going to get hit by a car.
22:52
You're going to get hit by a car or or motorcycle.
22:54
Rio for me would be the least walkable. Yeah. It's very dangerous.
22:59
But on top of that, there are so many places where walks end.
23:01
There's mountains, there's tunnels. Yeah.
23:03
I I mean, I I have not in this recent project um gone to Brazil to walk partly because when I was a banker, I spent a lot of time in Brazil and so I don't really want to go back.
23:16
Um but I I I would imagine that just connecting do Paulo is a lot more walkable than than Rio is.
23:22
Rio is just there's just no go zones.
23:25
Like it's just literally those are dangerous.
23:27
Um and also you have you know the topography of a place does determine its walkability. Yeah.
23:32
Like you know you know um certain cities are just disjoint and it's really just hard to walk.
23:40
You know um one of my favorite cities in the world and I quite enjoyed walking was Aman Jordan but um and I would encourage people who listen to this that it's it's it's it's you know people always ask like what's undiscovered place?
23:52
It's relatively really undiscovered place. Um, and it was safe.
23:57
Um, you know, I went into some very, um, quote, rough neighborhoods, but I was, you know, even though I was open about open to people that I was Jewish and that most of the Arab world is quite safe. Yeah.
24:07
Just assalum and, you know, you know, you're you're good.
24:12
Um, and um, but it it's it's eight hills.
24:16
Like there are there are climbs I was taking that I was just just absurd.
24:22
Like I'm walking up basically 60 floors of steep flights and then you know you're you feel like a hero and then a 50-y old 60-y old woman comes right past you who's been doing it all the day with like stuff on her back.
24:34
I don't know if you've ever been there but one of my favorite walkable cities was Alexandria, Egypt.
24:40
I have not been because you have both the waterfront and streets with interesting buildings and when I was there at least it was quite safe. It probably still is.
24:49
I um I keep on having them I also do these long walks um where I I like I walked across England and I walked across Japan kind of what I I walked the Ran Valley and I walked the Ryan Valley kind of what you know 200 mile walks I'll do over the course of two weeks I've been trying to that's one of the ones I want to do which is walk from basically down part of the Nile you know up from Alexandria down to down to Cairo in that region. Yeah.
25:13
What's the greatest purely physical problem you have with all your walking?
25:19
Um, heat, usually heat exhaustion because a lot of the interesting places are in very hot parts of the world.
25:27
Um, heat never bothers me. I feel very lucky. It's cold.
25:31
I hate dehydration and heat are are my big problems because um, you know, again, places I find really interesting tend to be in the near the equator. Um, and so I don't know.
25:43
I don't know how old you are, but as I've gotten older, I just can't handle the heat. 63. Yeah. Okay.
25:49
So, it's I'm I'm impressed that you can handle the heat.
25:55
And I've lived in Virginia a long time.
25:57
I think for 5 years, I never turned on my air conditioner because I felt I should get used to it. And I did.
26:06
Now, when you take the trip as a whole, not just the walk, but the trip, you're not packing very much, right? That's correct.
26:11
What is it you wish you could carry but you can't? It just doesn't work.
26:16
I wish I could carry but I you know I would like I would like I would like a few more night outfits.
26:25
When you say night outfits, what do you I usually have one go out shirt.
26:28
So I want to walk in the shirt.
26:31
After a while that gets a bit raggedy.
26:33
I feel like I feel a little bit like um I also whenever I'm whenever I'm traveling I also do attend um mass every every Sunday wherever I am and I would like to I famously wear only sandals and I try to travel because that that's another pair of shoes would be nice to feel less less disrespectful when I go to mass.
26:54
So is there anything you bring a double of?
26:58
Like I bring a double pair of glasses. I've never needed them.
27:00
Uh, I bring almost I I bring double t I bring lots of tide pods.
27:06
Those are those are my secret weapon.
27:07
Tide pods cuz you can um I bring backup um computer cords. I bring backup glasses.
27:13
Um uh I think those I'm trying to think what else I have a double of.
27:19
Um I carry two two um spare batteries.
27:22
Um kind of I've never needed a second one much less the first one, but I always like to know like you know I won't run out of power.
27:28
Sometimes I bring spare chargers.
27:30
For books, you use Kindle or how do you do that?
27:33
I always have one physical book and then my Kindle.
27:36
So I I always keep one physical book because I just prefer reading physical books.
27:42
I always bring my Kindle, but try to get by with only physical books.
27:44
I mean, I think honestly I never regret underpacking.
27:48
like I always feel very I I I pack remarkably light like almost um and I think that's almost to me if I had one hack to people for traveling you know what I would say is when you get home look at what you brought and see how much you didn't use you'll find that you didn't use like a third of what you brought um and you can buy things on the road you know like if you run out of stuff like I can buy that second shirt and sometimes times I have.
28:20
No, I did an episode with Paul Salipc. Do you know who he is? No.
28:24
He's walking around the world literally. But literally in a Yeah. Yeah.
28:28
Circle isn't exactly the right word, but and he's had trouble with the war with Russia.
28:32
Uh China at first was an issue.
28:35
This was during pandemic some of the time.
28:36
Are you ever tempted to do that? Yeah.
28:39
You know, the problem is is I've looked at paths and I've looked at, you know, like I I looked at walking across the US multiple times and um I don't know how much you're going to learn the third day in a in a wheat field like one day of wheat fields is good like two more days and you know the GOI desert's the same like what am I going to learn the 15th day in the Gobi Desert you know.
29:01
Um, so I I famously, so this whole project started with this idea of walking around the world literally.
29:08
And I started saying, well, why do I have to I just cut out the middle parts, you know, the boring parts and focus on the cities because I like people, you know, I'm focused on on on culture.
29:18
I'm focused on how people operate.
29:19
Um, and so I like people and I like being around people.
29:21
So I I generally do not like, you know, the Woody Allen joke is I'm two with nature.
29:27
Um, I kind of I kind of get that.
29:27
Um, I like small doses of it, but what are you going to learn from? I'm the same.
29:33
I go forth like, you know, like if I walk from here to Florida, like that's a that's a lot of pine forest, man.
29:39
Like, you know, there's not much to learn there.
29:43
What is it you think you learn least while traveling the way you do?
29:49
Um, you know, it's interesting is I've so I I used to be a, you know, I used to be a macro trader, a macro type trader.
29:59
Um, and so I used to be very top down.
30:02
Um, and I think I've in some senses thrown too much of that away.
30:06
Um, I think there I've gone into blind without reading.
30:10
You know, I could do a little bit more background reading.
30:12
Um, in terms of the political question, one of the things I've done I You know what?
30:20
One of the things I've learned from my project is most people don't talk about politics, you know, and I because I only kind of talk about what other people want to talk about.
30:29
No one talks about politics, you know.
30:29
I being in Beijing, Shanghai, maybe it's not the best example because you people would say, well, there's a reason they don't want to talk about because I don't think that's it. No, I agree. Yeah. Most of the world. Yeah.
30:40
You know, I And so even Idaho. Yeah. Yeah.
30:43
So, you know, 98% of the people aren't political and they don't talk about politics.
30:48
And so, when, you know, I kind of got beat up on on on social media when people were talking about, oh, oh my god, Trump's going to be elected.
30:55
That's going to, you know, the world hates us. No, they don't.
30:58
They I've heard more, you know, I when that person said that, I was actually in a Compala, a bar in Compala with a person, a woman telling me how much she loved Trump, you know, but that was a rare political conversations.
31:08
Most people don't talk about politics.
31:09
And so in that sense is I I I could probably do more reading outside of the conversations about politics because I I go to a lot of these countries.
31:18
I don't know what's going on politically because they people don't talk about it.
31:20
What other macro views of the world have you revised due to your walking, visiting, traveling?
31:27
Oh, I mean obviously particular views about any individual place, but on the whole humanity I've become I've become um I mean the biggest change I would say is I you know I I be I've become religious um although you know that is that's that's not entirely just the walking but that's just country.
31:53
But do you think the walking is fed into it? Yes.
31:54
And how was that operated?
31:56
Um you just kind of I think you you know part of it was utilitarian is like if this works for so many people like you know but also it was is a little deeper than that which is uh an understanding that people a little bit more complicated than than than kind of science leads you to believe um and and life is a little more complicated.
32:16
Um so in that sense you know there's there is something that there is something to what I would call common sense folk wisdom.
32:25
Um and that that's just more than you know something that needs to be explained away with science or or eventually we'll move beyond.
32:33
Um I do think there are very human qualities um that are you I am I am not a relativist.
32:40
I I might have been you know 30 years ago kind of believe in kind of cultural relativism. I'm not a relativist.
32:46
I think there are some cultures that are just better than others. I agree with that.
32:49
I mean, you know, why can't we say that?
32:51
Like, you know, um, and I think part of, you know, I I had started off as a way back when before I found out I was good at math, I started off kind of with the intention of going to anthropology and I basically, you know, as a freshman, I left it after 3 months cuz it was just it was filled with this, you know, this culture relativism and all which I just thought was absurd.
33:13
Um, and now, you know, I feel more more certain of that.
33:18
Um but you know I would say the kind of bigger thing I've been thinking about for the last two years is I I've been you know a year is I I really do think if you would you know I I was famously six six years ago or seven year I would say like what what elites say doesn't matter.
33:36
Um you know like who cares what people are fighting about on Twitter like but actually you know it does matter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
33:44
We elites we and I'll put myself we as an elite I'm I'm one. We we build cultures. We build societies. So we matter immensely.
33:52
And I I've maybe I've gone a little bit too far now where I think all of culture is built by elites.
33:58
And you know to almost a level of you know giving excuses to people who aren't elites in terms of their behavior because that's the culture they grow up in. I won't go that far.
34:10
in. I won't go that far. I think you know there is there is free free free will and people have have have agency but you know I think Beijing I think CCP is an extreme example of what takes place in almost every culture which is
34:24
there is a small group of guardian classes class different definitions in different places who effectively create culture and most people are not political and they're and they and they choose not they the way they choose to live is is based not on a lot of decision. It's based on what culture
34:42
It's based on what culture gives them. Sure. Conformity. Yeah.
34:43
And so, um, I think in that sense, I think what academics do or what elites do, what politicians is immensely important and shapes how how societies are built and how they evolve.
34:57
Putting aside issues of financial security, but how many people do you think should do what you're doing?
35:03
Is it like, oh, there's only a few of us in the world, or is it some kind of life ARB opportunity that say 3% of people actually should be doing if they can?
35:14
Um, you know, it's interesting is I'm probably going to take like a six-month break from what I'm doing because I've leaned too far away from reading books.
35:22
Like I I kind of, you know, there's book learning and then there's um then there's a, you know, what I call suscastic experimental learning, which is kind of what I'm doing. Like you need both.
35:31
Um, and so I think if you only do what I'm doing, you're going to kind of miss out on a lot of a lot of a lot of the world.
35:38
Um, but why can't you do both though?
35:41
So I once had a trip to Goa and I mistimed the monsoon and I could hardly go out at all.
35:46
So I went out two or three hours a day. That was crushingly sad. I read a lot.
35:50
In fact, it was still a great trip. Yeah. Oh, no.
35:55
I mean, I I would have to change how I travel, which is part of what part part of it is just just me, which is people are expect expecting content every 11 days based on walking.
36:03
So, you know, like if I sit around and reading books.
36:06
Um but um but you can write about that too.
36:09
You have a post on your recent reading.
36:11
Yeah, I mean I I I can um but but but I do think that um you you have to do a mixture of both and I've leaned a little too far into the into the walking.
36:18
But um in terms of how many other people can do it, it's it's not, you know, it's it's logistically a hard lifestyle.
36:24
Like you have to be a certain personality.
36:26
Like I do not mind waking up in a different bedroom every night.
36:28
I do I I quite you know this might be just a quirk of my personality.
36:34
I do not mind 16-hour flights.
36:37
I kind of look forward to them like you know and I I don't fly first class. I fly in economy. Yeah.
36:42
So if you don't 13 hours is my limit. 13 is fine.
36:47
fine. past that it know but but like it's the time to read you know I go to the back and you know I know my airplanes now I know exactly where the steward is hang out and I go back and I talk to people you know I sit in the back um so I actually don't mind long
37:01
flights and if you got to have you have to have a personality that enjoys that I also don't mind I like talking to people like you what do you what is it you learn from steartuses um you know I mean like speaking of the you know just you the f the Pharaoh Islands example. I got I I landed at
37:18
I got I I landed at three in the morning and her she got a friend to drive me to the hotel.
37:22
So like small things like that.
37:25
Um but you know in general I just they're just they're just interesting people to talk about in terms of like they tell you about their where they grew up.
37:31
They tell you where to go.
37:32
I often take some of the information back.
37:34
You know I I use information probably in in the way they wouldn't think I use information like if they told me go someplace I may not go there because that signs like it's going to be crowded and I don't like crowds.
37:46
But um I just like to hear the life stories of people, you know, how they got into the career they got into and what they want out of life and what what's their goal here.
37:54
Why should more people visit the Pharaoh Islands?
37:58
It's just, you know, I said I'm two with nature, but I give an exemption for um Pharaoh. It's gorgeous.
38:03
It's absolutely gorgeous.
38:04
Like physically, it's it's it's the most sublime.
38:09
It has it has a sublime beauty that I just can't you know that was I kind of got people who get religious experiences out of nature from um you know it it's it never got old the be the the beauty um I also think it's just extraordinarily functional um and I like
38:27
functionality um it's great seafood also it's it's different although you know you all the seafood have you been Of course I've been how many times you been I've been to a lot of Um, have you been to How long were you in Pharaoh for? I think 5 days. I'm not I think 5 days.
38:41
I'm not sure, but less than a week, but more than just a day or two.
38:46
Yeah, it's it was interesting.
38:48
I was planning to be there for 5 days and I canceled my next trip to stay there for two weeks.
38:51
I like I can imagine that easily.
38:53
Um, what I liked most about it was I would just go to the bus depot and get on a bus and just get off somewhere and then walk for four or five hours and then, you know, I I would make sure that I would get another bus back because of the timets or but um you can just go h you can island hop and just walk around.
39:12
I like these incredible you can't even call them towns, but maybe five homes in a corner somewhere with the world's best view. And the homes are nice.
39:19
What I didn't like about it, I'm terrified of heights.
39:26
And I remember the first day I got there, I walked I walked I walked out of Torchvon across the island to the other side um over the over the mountain there.
39:36
It was like a eight mile walk over the up up the mountain and down.
39:41
And um I was like, you know, part of that walk there was some kind of cliffs and I was like a little bit scared, but I got through it.
39:51
But I'm like, I'll just take the bus back. That's fine.
39:53
The bus was more terrifying than the walk because it would go down to pick up these kids.
40:01
And they live down at the like one of those villages. Yeah. Did this once. Yeah.
40:06
And the road is a dirt road that's maybe, you know, just a car length wide.
40:12
And this bus is going around the corners and these I had to move sides of the bus not to be on the side that was near the looking down the 50.
40:19
These kids were just like looking down smiling. I was I was terrified.
40:27
Is Istanbul the world's most walkable city?
40:29
I think it's one of the one I I would put Tokyo up there.
40:31
Tokyo wins wins a walkability award.
40:33
Um, Istanbul is probably my it's one of the most walkable cities.
40:38
If it wasn't for the motor scooters, delivery guys.
40:41
Um, it's just it's just um it's got the weather, it's got the beauty.
40:46
Um, it's got the um diversity.
40:49
It's got the biggest thing what I call for walkability is what I call local distribution.
40:54
Meaning you can always there's always a shop somewhere. Yes.
40:57
Like you know um it's also I I don't know if your experience was this.
41:02
I just get over to the Asia side.
41:04
That to me is a much more interesting side.
41:06
Um, and get out of the tourist parts.
41:08
Um, and it's just a very it's just a I mean it's just a wonderful city has the history.
41:15
But the thing I like about the history there is it it's not it hasn't um hasn't frozen the city.
41:20
They just you know like on the eur on the European side is that famous wall. wall.
41:26
I forget the name of the wall that was there, been there to the wall that was eventually breached in like 1453 or whatever, 1456.
41:31
Um, the Northern Defense Wall is still there, remnants of it, and it's just used as a car park.
41:40
Like, you know, there's this there's this 13th century wall that's just used as a car park, which I still think is pretty impressive.
41:46
So, I like the way history is both both there, but also not relegated to just kind of um museum-like status.
41:57
Is anywhere in India truly properly walkable?
42:00
I've not been since a kid.
42:00
Um I canceled this last trip.
42:04
I was going to go to Mumbai. Um I don't know.
42:05
Um because I do a lot of Google Street Views before trips and it looks like part of the reason I canceled my trip.
42:12
I was going to go in January.
42:14
I had to cancel for a variety of reasons.
42:15
Um, I'll I'll go sometime soon, but it it looks like it's going to be, you know, it looks like it's going to be hard to walk.
42:25
I mean, I I was able to walk into Jakarta.
42:28
I was able to walk in No way.
42:28
I found both of them to be okay. Walkability. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.
42:31
But, um, you know, did did have you you've how would you compare it to Jakarta? Have you been to both? I've been to both.
42:41
I there's many parts of India.
42:43
Amitar struck me as the most walkable part of India.
42:46
I visited the seikhs are a bit like Mormons of India in terms of how they keep the city.
42:51
It's fairly wellmaintained.
42:56
Um there's pollution issues, there's weather issues, and there's big you could call pothole sidewalk pothole issues. So, it's tough.
43:02
Yeah, the the the pothole issue is is I mean it's it's awful in Jakarta.
43:07
It's awful in um in in Hanoi.
43:10
You just have to look down a lot or you can just break an ankle, right? You know.
43:14
Um but and then there's somewhere like GA which is fairly wellmaintained but it's just not well set up for walking.
43:19
You need vehicles to get around you know a lot of the developing world you know is not intended to be walked like you know like the contrary like you know and and again I remember when I was in Hanoi people were like trying to like you know pe people become friends with me and they're like no no no I'm going to I'm going to take you on a scooter. I'm not. Why are you walking?
43:43
Like, you know, I was like trying to explain what I was doing.
43:46
They were like, why would you walk?
43:47
You know, when you can when you can when you can go on a moped like, you know, that's that's a that's that's probably the right attitude, too.
43:53
I have the view that people should pick out a place where they're quite sure they don't want to go and at least subject to some safety constraint, then go to that place. I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah.
44:03
I mean, that's kind of my whole strategy in many ways is I mean, although spectacularly failed with Phoenix, I tried I wanted to be a smartass and prove that Unwalkable Phoenix was in fact walkable and it did not happen.
44:17
It's getting less walkable too, right?
44:20
Um it was it was I mean but again it's no one no one there walks and no one should walk there like they have no intention to be walkable like and that that's okay you know like at current margins where is it you think you definitely don't want to go?
44:39
Where do I definitely don't want to go?
44:41
I and put aside North Korea, Middle I'm kind of burned out on Latin America.
44:44
I spent so much time there as a dur during my banking career.
44:48
Um I've I generally don't find, you know, um I think Peru is um Lima is quietly some of the best food in the world. Sure.
45:01
Like absolutely like if I had to if I had to say where you know one of the one of to me one of the dirty secrets is the food you get in a place is not that much better than you can get in the US and you know the average person does not eat that much right this the the exceptions being France, Japan, Korea and Peru and Italy. Yes. Yeah.
45:21
Italy is I'd put up there as well.
45:21
In general I get better I got better Indonesian food in in Netherlands than I did in Indonesia. Um by far.
45:28
Um, and you know, Vietnam, I'd also put up there as a place where the food is exceptionally better relative than what you get um, outside of Vietnam.
45:37
Um, Latin America just doesn't really interest me in terms of like ah, you know, I mean, I don't see a lot of variety in the cities.
45:45
Um, um, I'm not particularly uh, you know, into like I keep on wanting to go.
45:50
I've had this childhood fascination with Surinam.
45:55
Um, and in fact, last night I spent about an hour looking once again at flights to Surinam to Paris.
45:59
I can't pronounce the name of the capital. Paris. I know where. It's funny.
46:03
Just this morning I was looking up Surinam and thinking of going par. Yes. Whatever. Um, city.
46:09
Um, I mean there are direct flights from from actually Netherlands, but like um but it's there's no direct flight from JFK.
46:17
You can go to Georgetown, but also just, you know, doing lots of pin drops, looking at possible places to walk.
46:22
It's just not that interesting, you know. It's kind of spread out.
46:26
It's hot, but the mix of groups is interesting.
46:28
The food is good when you buy it in the Netherlands. That's a hope.
46:31
So, I mean, I I kind of this this morning I booked my next trip and my originally it was going to be Georgetown and then going to I can't pronounce it. Perro. Yeah. Surinam. Yeah. Sir.
46:43
Um, but I I I just just I just for whatever reason it just the Caribbeans just doesn't interest me.
46:50
Like it just um I don't know what it is.
46:53
It just it just doesn't seem like there's a lot of cultural depth there.
46:56
You know, you can your reader your your listeners can yell at me who are Caribbean, but like I will go there. This is on my list.
47:03
Um yeah, you know, um they're wealthy now.
47:06
And I think the interesting thing about Georgetown is they have the oil, so you have the economics side.
47:12
They had 40% GDP growth in the prior year.
47:14
Got to imagine that's just to look at that for me is interesting. Yeah.
47:17
I mean and um Surinam is has a spillover of the same thing or they're getting like 20% growth lower but still impressive. Yeah. Yeah.
47:25
Um so I think that would be in Latin America that would be interesting but in terms of not Yeah.
47:30
I don't I don't want to go to South Africa either.
47:31
I have no interest in going to South Africa.
47:33
I went to Cape Town last summer.
47:35
I was surprised how much I liked it. Okay.
47:37
I'm afraid to go elsewhere in the country perhaps but I mean I was I would say consider it and I walked quite a bit.
47:44
I spent six months there as a child.
47:46
So I don't I just I don't know.
47:48
But that was a very different South Africa also.
47:53
Uh and there were smaller towns where I quite seriously thought of just moving there for a month in South Africa in near Cape Town to be clear basically Cape Town.
48:03
small towns of I don't know 40,000 people with fully walkable city squares, perfect weather, amazing food, and prices were maybe one-third of US prices with a much higher standard of living.
48:16
I'm trying to think where else I wouldn't go. Um I'll go to anywhere.
48:18
I I I don't have much interest in Scandinavia. I just don't.
48:22
I've had good trips there and Helsinki for walking is one of my favorite cities.
48:28
Fair Island surprised me.
48:29
Like I didn't expect to like Fair Island.
48:31
So, you know, there you go.
48:34
And for in summertime it's I don't mind the heat but my wife does and they're great ornes of course and incredible. Okay.
48:41
But small it's not I was thinking of doing an orc shhatland um pharaoh trip.
48:46
I've never been to Shhatland but Orcne I'd recommend you can do that by boats all three.
48:50
Oh yeah that would be fun.
48:53
And in Orc to get to the ancient sites in Orcnees.
48:57
I guess you could do it by bus, but a car is useful, right?
49:02
And it feels quite Nordic, not not Scottish, right?
49:04
And that surprised me a bit.
49:07
I should have known, but I mean, very Norwegian, right? That was my sense. Yeah.
49:13
Iran I want to go to, but I don't have my hopes up.
49:15
I I I mean, I'm, you know, in places I want to go that I are not particularly easy is um basically Russia. I love Russian culture.
49:25
Absolutely love Russian culture. I've only been twice.
49:26
Um and um I was thinking about one of the trips I'm trying to book is Bellarus.
49:31
Um but again it's just it's just it's just hard for a lot of reasons.
49:36
Um and there there there are risks you know like and I don't know if I particularly want to take those risks right now. Yeah.
49:41
So but I I also know you know to the questions of of issues of you know political morality I would say that again 98% of the people aren't involved in politics.
49:52
Like you get to a place they don't care. Yeah.
49:56
And so it's kind of it's unfair to to to to condemn a place based on the the elites behavior when 98% of the people don't care.
50:02
And you know similarly the the opposite behavior is you know I find a lot of foreigners are very forgiving of American policy because they they they understand that you know the citizens are not necessarily responsible for the behavior of the country.
50:16
We're very popular in Vietnam I found. Yeah we are.
50:20
It was one of the more um you know when I was in Vietnam, people kept asking me, readers kept asking me to write about the political like what about the war?
50:27
And no one talks about it. Nobody. Yeah.
50:28
it. Nobody. Yeah. like and I was right next to a I remember having you know talking to some people right next to a I was in an outdoor bar right next to a memorial to a Christmas day bombing we did and I think whenever we killed like 30 people and there was this you know
50:43
there was this memorial including having a like a jet fighter part of the jet fighter from the US jet fighter no one cared you know why do you like El Paso so much um the the optimism, this American dream, you know, um and so I think the American dream is very much alive in the um working-class Mexican-American community. And you see that in El Paso,
51:08
And you see that in El Paso, like you don't have, you know, when I was doing my my project on addiction and poverty, um El Paso is just fundamentally different. Yeah.
51:19
You know, you don't have the despair that you have in places you you know, and a low crime rate, too. Yeah.
51:25
extraordinarily and you know in some senses Mexico acts as a roach motel right like if you're going to do crime go over to Wararez um so consequently um there's no crime in El Paso but it's it's it's one of the most optimistic cities in the United States it has
51:38
amazing food by the way um I you know I think it's walkable and I've walked a lot of it but I can understand why some people might not see that um I find just the colorful buildings I find the good weather fantastic weather by the way desert desert high high desert is always my favorite weather. Um great weather. Um, and Um great weather.
51:56
weather. Um great weather. Um, and again, the optimism like you, you know, when when you look at working-class Mexican-Americans versus working-class whites, working-class blacks in the US, statistically, all the things are the same except for issues of devian, you
52:13
know, crime, addiction, you know, the Mexicans drink too much like you know, um, but uh, but but generally, you know, it's it's where someone can come and really feel and I think a lot of it is, you know, It's the it's the it's the slope of the curve, not the height. Um,
52:29
Um, and like you know, they can look AC they can literally look across over to Warz and see what they've got what their what their what how their life has improved.
52:38
And that just brings a great deal of optimism.
52:42
Looking back on your career as a whole, what were the best things about working on Wall Street? Smart people. Smart people. Yeah.
52:48
um you know I I've had um I you know particle physics um banking and um and then I guess journalism whatever you want to call it writing now pundantry and I have found in general that the friends I the group of people that was the smartest the the people I enjoy talking to the most and I still enjoy talking to most in terms of being able to have kind of discussions that you can talk about anything. Yeah.
53:20
And not feel like you're going to offend somebody.
53:21
Um at at a level we're generally bankers. Um and not all of them.
53:26
They're like, you know, there is a uh there is a hierarchy in banking.
53:32
um like you know um but in general I think it was a great way to learn about the world at a very top down approach and you know and you know people make fun of the idea of like becoming a specialist in X for what but that was that was the great thing about banking
53:48
is you know all a sudden you had to learn about oil for 3 months you became an expert in oil and then 3 months later you became an expert on like palladium or whatever um and I found that kind of intense continual learning to be very very enjoyable. What were the worst
54:02
What were the worst things about working there?
54:06
Um it was a very narrow view again which is why I'm doing what I'm doing now which was it was very much you know the view from the Ramada you know um it's kind of fly in you know one of the things I will say is that you know I I stay away from certain neighborhoods in certain towns
54:24
and which is generally the wealthy neighborhoods they're all the same like like they're all variations on a theme um like the the wealthy neighborhood and and Sophia is very similar to like it's like a little Fifth Avenue and that's just not interesting. And that's kind of
54:38
And that's kind of what bankers do when they look at a place.
54:42
You just go, you know, my joke I used to say about um about cuz I was a I did emerging markets um fixed income.
54:48
So we bond trade in Russia, bond trade in Turkey.
54:52
It's like you know the entire investor base in the bond market of Turkey could fit into this this this restaurant and they often do like they're all there every night the same group of people.
55:03
So it's just very it's very limiting perspective.
55:04
What's the special role that pigeons played in your career?
55:11
Hi John for asking that question. Um a lot actually.
55:15
I became fascinated with pigeon keeping.
55:17
So um when I when I was started um when I started um this project of of kind of uh documenting addiction, it came basically through pigeons.
55:29
I so during the financial crisis, I would go on these long walks in New York, these 15-mi walks, 60-mi walks.
55:35
Um, and I became fascinated with the pigeon keepers.
55:38
I would see these flocks of pigeons above the air.
55:39
And then I started documenting, becoming friends with these pigeon keepers, and they were there's an old Italian sport brought over to the to the um Bronx and Brooklyn, and now it's mostly a black and Puerto Rican sport.
55:52
These guys would find these abandoned buildings and put coups up there and just keep pigeons in there.
55:57
I find them to be extraordinarily beautiful.
56:00
Uh, you know, it's I think it's an art form.
56:02
You know, they you know, they they call it a sport, but there's really no goal to it. Like you're not racing.
56:07
Just you just it's husbandry, animal husbandry.
56:09
Like you just keep pretty pigeons and then every day you fly them.
56:13
And I found it to be a really wonderful hobby.
56:15
And uh so I started going all around New York becoming part of this documenting vision keeper which that brought me to Hunts Point which started me on my addiction project.
56:25
How about snapping turtles?
56:29
I have um I have two snapping turtles um Reginald and No Name that are in my pond at home.
56:35
And so for every for the last 8 years um when when the summer comes they come out and I feed them every night.
56:43
And uh I find it really fascinating that these two animal these two creatures one of which is probably 40 years old will live underneath the ice.
56:51
My pond's frozen right now.
56:54
We'll be underneath the ice for six, seven months.
56:56
And then they know when to come and where to come to get hot dogs every at the same time every year which I think is pretty pretty amazing instinctive skill.
57:04
What's the best thing about writing Substack?
57:10
Um and tell us the full name of your Substack and how to connect to it.
57:12
Chris Arnati walks the world.
57:14
Um I it's just I would just Google Chris Arnati walks the world.
57:19
um the um the freedom to basically do this, you know, like I can't believe people are I'm being paid not tons but enough, you know, um to to literally walk around the world like you know um it's it's kind of the perfect job for me.
57:34
Um, and uh, you know, I don't think you could do that with, you know, there's there's a I forgot who it was who wrote about back in the about the 60s or 70s, somebody who who uh, who create someone who related to the Grateful Dead wrote about the concept that you could if you just if you just have 2,000 fans on anything, you That's right.
57:57
you could I forgot who it was who who had that.
57:59
Is it Kevin Kelly or I believe that's it was no Steuart Brand I think who who come up with the concept all you need is 2,000 people. That's right. And sometimes one Yeah.
58:09
You know and and that's pretty amazing like you know there's you know there's five billion people in the world that's like you don't need that many people.
58:18
Um but it's hard to get right.
58:20
Um it is but it's not a high her it's not a high barrier.
58:24
So, it's, you know, it's it's it's really a niche niche culture because I have a niche thing, you know, and all you need is 2,000 people.
58:30
Um, and um, so I really find kind of the Substack model of allowing people to to build a life based on just finding 2,000 people who appreciate what they do or 1,000.
58:46
That that's a really that's a really liberating, you know, notion because, you know, in a big world, you can usually find 1,500 people who have if you have an in if you have a unique enough um um interest and do you think you'll turn your substack into a book or something else or why?
59:02
So there's no plan per se? No.
59:05
Like why would you do like I don't understand I mean I don't really understand books like in the sense of like but you want to read more of them, right?
59:12
Um, I mean, I I I like I'm glad people wrote books in the past, but like, you know, like I think in many cases kind of a a weekly essay is or bi-weekly essay or is is kind of the perfect at least for me is a perfect way to um kind of communicate.
59:27
Do you use AI at all when you travel? I do not.
59:30
Um, I'm starting to use it now as a I take I started using as a copy editor.
59:38
Um, but why what do you what you use it for for traveling?
59:42
If I'm just arriving in a city, I will have guide books, but I'll ask GPT or Claude, "What should I see in the city?"
59:49
And I'll tell it what I'm interested in.
59:50
It's better than any guide book. Really? It is.
59:52
So, what do you So, when you land in the city, what do you tell?
59:55
We'll say you were going to Xian, what would you do?
59:58
I would say I'm interested in Chinese history, art, culture, and So, you're a museum guy?
1:00:07
I'm a museum guy and I've been to Shian and Yeah.
1:00:09
No, but so you you go through the museums. That's right.
1:00:11
So I do exactly the opposite.
1:00:12
I've never been I don't The only museums I go to is military history museums because I they're great too.
1:00:17
They're histories of propaganda which I love.
1:00:19
The one in Tokyo is incredible.
1:00:21
Like like they're almost histories of histories.
1:00:24
They're they're almost museums of museums at this point. Yes.
1:00:27
Um but um so you you you you go through the museums but in China there are not many good ones to see but in Shian by far the best thing to see is in a museum.
1:00:36
You cannot not go to the museum see the terracotta warriors. Right.
1:00:41
I mean so I I don't want to you know what do you get out of a museum? I love the visual arts. Okay.
1:00:49
But so I see what's in it. Yeah.
1:00:51
But say to see it in per like I but it's elites building a narrative. Okay. Okay.
1:00:55
if you're interested in that.
1:00:57
What can you get out of that that you can't get out of that from a book?
1:00:59
So, the color plates are not very good compared to the actual paintings.
1:01:03
So, it goes it's to me it's I'm kind of asking what's the Walter Benjamin question like you know the age the a age of mechanical reproduction.
1:01:11
Yeah, the reproductions are terrible. Yeah.
1:01:12
No, but but in the book you don't really see the process of defining the history and the narrative and how people respond to it.
1:01:21
So, do did you you've been to the higher self? Yeah. Yeah, sure.
1:01:25
Did you get something out of it? Of course.
1:01:27
What did you get out of it?
1:01:29
Uh, the visual splendor of it which cannot be captured in a photograph. So, the aura, right? Aura. Okay. The aura. Yeah.
1:01:35
And that helped you understand it better.
1:01:37
I don't know if understand is the word. I enjoyed it. I felt inspired.
1:01:41
I shared it with other people who were there. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
1:01:46
In some senses, I I kind of more the I think you have a you have a reputation of being something of a libertarian kind of like materialist. Is that fair?
1:01:52
Oh, I don't know what that means.
1:01:55
No, but I'm broadly libertarian.
1:01:57
Yeah, but no, but like I I'm almost kind of You're almost more romantic about it than I am here. Oh, much more. Of course.
1:02:02
And whereas I find the museums to be kind of like h And a thing you can do with AI is you can take a photo of any picture in the museum or any bird, any plant, any building and get the history and ask it all the questions you want.
1:02:18
And that guide books cannot do. And that's phenomenal.
1:02:23
I mean, again, I I love this and it's free.
1:02:25
I mean, if the margin is free, you have to pay some subscription, but it's not much.
1:02:29
So, what do you think you'll do next?
1:02:31
Um, I'm going to do this for another few another another few years and then I don't know like I I didn't know I was going to do this, you know what I mean?
1:02:40
Like, this how did it come about that you did this?
1:02:42
What was the moment of realization or decision?
1:02:44
Um I I just found during um I just found um you know for when when I when I when I was um when I found when I when life was stressful I found I always walked um you know when I when I'm at home I walk I have a standard 10 mile daily walk that I do um which is very different from my like learning walk.
1:03:08
It's just it's it's therapeutic.
1:03:10
Um and um around CO when CO happened, I looked at actuarial tables and I said, "Oh, I'm a little bit overweight."
1:03:17
Like, you know, that's not good.
1:03:19
And so I started walking 10 miles every day and I really enjoyed it.
1:03:21
And then I started saying, "Well, I should just, you know, I shouldn't I I when I was in Brooklyn, I used to I walked the entire length of the New York subway system above ground and I've always been into walking."
1:03:32
And I just realized, hey, I can just I can, you know, I think I was looking at some a table that like what about one and a half billion people live in live in massive cities that we really don't know the names like you know these big sprawling Jakartas.
1:03:47
I'm like I would like to see that like you know agree like that's where mo that's the normal experience for most people.
1:03:53
And so I just started I booked a trip to Jakarta and just started walking Jakarta.
1:03:57
Listeners, I love Chris's Substack. It's walking the world.
1:04:02
Chris's book I can recommend as well.
1:04:04
Chris, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you for having me.