0:04
After Brat, I really was like, "I'm not going to make another record."
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Everybody sort of took that statement as like, "Oh, she's retiring." Like, no.
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But, I really did think I would have like quite a long pause.
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And then, you know, inspiration struck. >> [music] >> It's cool.
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It's nice um seeing the same people around you. >> Mhm. Yeah.
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>> It's like it's obviously probably what you tell me, but I feel like the most important thing is the relationships and the people, and it really comes to the surface on this record, mate, as well.
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I mean, the first first line is me and my friends.
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>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It is, and I think that's such a kind of key sort of statement of the whole album, you know?
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Um I've been working with a lot of the same people for I mean, kind of my whole career, but definitely for the past 10 years.
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And so, I've just learned like over the amount of time that I've been doing this, however many records, mixtapes, whatever it is that I've made, that the most enjoyable version of doing this is doing it with my friends.
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And since music and making things has just become such a huge Well, I mean, kind of like my whole life.
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You know, it's like I've built so many amazing relationships with people through doing creative things. >> Yeah.
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>> And so, it's nice to just kind of have them be around all the time and make things with them.
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>> You've built a beautiful cottage industry around yourself full of friends and >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> and being able to tie it all into this wonderful creative exercise which just keeps getting stranger.
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The journey just gets stranger [laughter] and stranger. >> Why do you say that? What do you mean?
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>> Because every time you show up the music reflects another part of your life at another level of honesty.
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>> Obviously this is just my experience but every time I make an album or sit down to make any kind of long-form body of work, I do feel like you sort of mine yourself again and the more you do it, um, the more you learn about yourself, the deeper you go.
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Um, and for me, you know, I'm always sort of looking back at things that I have made before and figuring out what I've understood about myself as an artist and as a person through the work that I've previously done.
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Like it is just such a huge part of it for me, you know?
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And so it's kind of impossible not to get kind of like closer and closer to the core of who I am through my work and I don't really know what the end goal is, like the ultimate quest. >> No melody. >> Yeah, I don't know.
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Like the ultimate quest to know who I really am.
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>> That's the punchline, normal.
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>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I don't know and I don't know that, you know, that the journey never ends really but >> No, no.
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>> Yeah, I think it is very honest, this album and it's sort of me thinking about myself post like the last album and >> Yeah, cuz you've done you've pulled off a magic act here.
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You've made a record that directly reflects upon success and how great and challenging that can be and it doesn't suck.
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A lot A lot kind of records can be really challenging because it feels so internalized.
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Like, "Oh man, I'm reflecting on something you don't understand."
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And it's like, you're right, we don't understand.
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But you've made it so universal through your experience by by attaching it to friendships, your relationship, primary relationship now. >> Yeah.
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>> You know, even your past like on 2007, even going back and kind of giving that kid a hug in a weird way.
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It's what you know, it's what that song kind of made me feel like, you know. >> Oh, that's cool.
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Yeah, I mean I think the sort of human experience whilst we all have our different versions of it, there are kind of three threads um that apply to everybody, you know?
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um that apply to everybody, you know? I think I'm very lucky to live the life that I lived and I've worked very hard for it, but there's still some, you know, like core feelings that I feel like my friends who, you know, aren't musicians or sort of making work publicly or
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or even on the internet also experience, you know, which is their relationships with their friends, their relationships with themselves, their insecurities, their constant state of doom >> [laughter] >> that they sometimes feel and think no matter who you are and what you do, everybody has their own kind of feelings about those things, you know? So So >> Yeah.
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>> Makes me happy that you say um that it's relatable, I suppose. >> much so.
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>> Not that that's my kind of end goal anyway.
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>> trying to relate to all of us when you're writing your life story? What's wrong with you? >> I know, I know.
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>> It's about us too, you know. >> Yeah.
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But I think the second I try and actually like think about the audience and relate or something intentionally, um maybe that's when it actually like doesn't really work or happens.
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In the past I've kind of made choices or songs that I thought maybe like people would get more and actually they end up feeling the most distant from who I am as an artist because it's not me following my gut instinct.
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And especially in the music industry, there's always so many people in your ear.
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Like if you do this, this will happen. If you do that you know.
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And I think I've definitely got a lot better at shutting that out and really trusting my own kind of inner voice to make the decisions I want to make creatively and I always feel that those are the most rewarding decisions, you know. >> Mhm.
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In a way that is kind of 2007 pop star in a bedroom, isn't it? Like >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> and there isn't anybody telling you that you've got something if you just make do this a little more and that a little more and tune it a little more. >> Mhm.
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>> There's an innocence to that.
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Like you said heaven, the sort of idea of being a 13-year-old [clears throat] kid just trying to figure it out. >> Yeah.
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And you know, it's funny.
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It's like that song I think on one level it really is just about um making TikToks and how everybody can kind of have this version of performance now if they want to.
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They can kind of literally be a star for 15 seconds in a video and put it online and people can respond to it in a very kind of Warholian kind of a way.
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And so in one way that song really is about that.
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But as you said, I think there is this sort of nostalgia and paying homage to my younger self who was on MySpace uploading like crappy songs and demos and doing that whole thing back then.
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And that was such a sweet kind of pure time because it was sort of before this kind of level of comparison that I think happens to all of us as we kind of grow older and get more immersed into the world around us and things like that, and it was like a very pure time.
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I was like never embarrassed about anything back then, which is so sweet and cool, and you know, I kind of work hard to try and like get back to that, and >> Yeah, cuz you make that statement on the record, too, which is I don't get embarrassed. >> if I suck. Yeah.
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>> Like I don't believe you entirely cuz I think it's impossible for us to not feel some self form of self-consciousness, but that's also a really cool theme of this record, which is like this this term like paradox shows up a lot on this record.
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You know, at times two things are right in exactly the same breath, like wink wink is literally like that example of that.
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In the same line, you're making one statement and then contradicting it in a really interesting and funny way.
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How did you land in that place where you wanted to acknowledge things, sort of truths, and some accountabilities, but at the same time not make it so self- obsessed that it's like, "Oh, I've got confessions to make."
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Like, you know what I mean?
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It's >> Well, I think, you know, the whole album is kind of like that because I mean, that's my existence as a human.
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Like I'm a very contradictory person.
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I believe one thing, but can sometimes kind of act another way, and I think that is just human nature in a way.
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Um and also I think for me being a musician and getting to do all of the other things that I get to do alongside being a musician, it's so fun.
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And in ways it's so light, um but at the same time it means everything to me, and that's kind of where the album title came from, too.
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You know, it's like these three kind of probably most popular pillars of the arts are things that people can engage with in a really kind of light-hearted, fun, escapist kind of a way.
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>> Or it could be desperately serious. >> Or that, exactly.
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And that's how I feel about all of this stuff that I'm talking about on the record, about music, fashion, and film as a whole.
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It's like it means everything, but also at the same time it is quite um I don't know, like cyclable or something in a way.
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And so I think the tone of the album, it's like it can be really fun, but it's also very serious.
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And like making sure that I am having fun and doing the things that make me feel passionate is um kind of detrimental to me and my brain.
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Um like I need I need it to be like that.
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Um but at the same time when I am in those moments of pure bliss and fun, I'm also like, "Wow, this is actually just so amazing and I'm having the best time and how cool is that?"
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>> It sounds wonderful and exhausting and equally >> Yeah, I mean it is both of those things, exactly.
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>> I read [snorts] the Rolling Stone piece. >> Mhm.
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>> Um how was it shooting with Gus Van?
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I feel like you're stacking them man.
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It's >> [laughter] >> Cronenberg, Gus Van Sant, just like let me just like Vincent Cassel, let's just go.
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Let's just get these old geezers, these wrinkled legends and just roll. >> Yeah, yeah.
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Well, Gus, I mean with Gus it was it was so cool.
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Like when I knew I was going to do Rolling Stone, I really wanted um I really wanted a film director to shoot the cover, but I wanted it to be somebody who really had like a long-standing relationship with photography as well. And that was Gus.
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I mean he he's also he's an incredible painter, he makes incredible music.
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Like he really kind of embodies that kind of thirst to create things.
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And shooting with him was particularly inspiring because we shot at his house in LA.
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And in his house, his work is just everywhere.
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All of these paintings that he's made are just kind of propped up against the walls.
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I think there's a bit of a sort of negative connotation to like [clears throat] people who are kind of like multi-hyphenates in like the creative sphere.
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And I'm not talking about I don't think people think that of him, but I think nowadays younger people who are like, "I want to sing. I want to write. I want to act. I want to write a book. I want to paint." It's like, I don't know.
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There is a sometimes a kind of um a little bit of a backlash to that.
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Like, "You can't do everything."
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I think it's maybe a little bit easier if you're a guy, you know?
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Um but to be there with somebody who has, you know, such a rich career across all of these different fields, you know, gave me hope.
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I was like, "That's great."
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And um I think he Yeah, I don't know.
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Being there was very inspiring.
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When BRAT kind of became what it became, I guess I I knew I I had this sort of kind of crossroads situation where I was faced with the idea of kind of continuing down that same path.
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Doing the same thing over and over again.
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Not in a bad way, but you know, using a certain formula, using familiar sounds that was you know, were were kind of related to that album.
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I did that a little bit with the remix record, you know, by bringing other people into world and that was so fun and I had a really good time making that record.
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But I guess I could have kind of, you know, doubled down and and done it again.
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Or I could have used the sort of platform that I had from Brat to go on and work in a slightly different way and kind of collaborate with different people in different spheres and that's what I ended up doing and that was far more appealing to me because I don't know.
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I mean you know this about me.
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I'm very restless and I think I don't want to do the same thing over and over again and maybe that is my sort of cross I have to bear and why people won't always perhaps like get me or you know, whatever but like musically I mean but I'm okay with that because I think you know, this is my life and I have to do what makes me happy and inspired.
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>> This is something we were accustomed to and as fans of yours we would hope for every single time. >> Mhm.
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>> But if ever there was a time where you were going to get that ultimate test it was post Brat. >> Yeah.
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>> That would have been the moment and honestly speaking for myself I can't speak for anybody else who's been with you through this a long time listening to your records.
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I I wouldn't have blamed you.
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I would have been excited to hear how you would have followed Brat up and done whatever you were going to do.
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It was like yeah, of course you landed on something beautiful as long as it's fun and inspiring for you but doesn't surprise me you pivoted out really.
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>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And I think a lot of people who maybe only just kind of got to know me through Brat >> It's probably most challenging for them.
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>> Yeah, which is totally cool but it's also like that's why you like artists, you know, you don't like artists because you can predict their every move.
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That's like not as sort of fun or whatever at least for me, you know, I like my favorite artists challenge me.
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>> Can we also say that Bread is not a home run the day before it comes out?
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It's a challenging record until it comes out and then it becomes this omnipresent amazing beautiful zeitgeist.
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>> Also, there were no I mean like sort of hits.
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>> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You know what I mean?
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>> I Yeah, I'm not like a I'm not like a sort of pop off on the charts like hit off. Boom clap.
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>> But no, no, no, that like that like 15 years ago.
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>> But you But you know what you're doing. >> No, no, I know.
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But you know I'm not and I'm not I'm not saying that in a self-deprecating way by the way.
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Like I'm just saying >> wanted to shout out boom clap.
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>> That's just you know, I I'm that's not why that's not my sort of direction when I make um music.
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And actually, you know, it's like uh people always like, "Yeah, but she could do that if she wanted to." I'm like, "Could I?"
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And you're like, "I don't know."
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Like whenever that has happened, it's never been like this mastermind like, "Oh and now I'm going to have I love it and it's going to be this thing."
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It's like I was like when I wrote that song I was like, "This is the worst song I've ever made." You know what I mean?
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Like I don't I don't know.
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I don't I like don't know.
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So I But that's never my sort of goal to go there. If it happens, awesome.
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And you know, I'm never going to say no to that, but that's not sort of what I'm like aiming for.
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>> I mean, when we spoke about Bread, remix album was on the verge.
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It was like teetering ready to go, but you were in it. You were touring.
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You're in New York doing sold out shows at MSG.
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Running around from arenas to arena.
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So to get us back up to speed and to dive into music, fashion, film, how did it feel for your number to come out of the barrel, you know?
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And it's like, "Oh people love this."
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And I'm being talked about it, it's genuine and the tickets are selling really fast, and people want my opinion, and it's just all of the pistons are firing.
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Maybe you wanted it your whole life.
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Maybe you didn't realize you wanted it your whole life.
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What did it feel like when you got it?
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>> Um well, you know, I have a big mouth, so I would say I really like having fun with it, for sure.
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Did I want it my whole life? Like I don't know.
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Like I was definitely like interested in that, but actually I I guess I had a hard time sort of imagining a world where I could kind of get all of the things I wanted with little compromise.
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And actually that is really what happened with Brat, you know, like I didn't compromise the music at all to kind of try and make it more appealing.
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I didn't compromise anything about the way I made the visuals for that record, the album cover, the videos, like any of the language in like touring that album.
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I was really kind of It was sort of tunnel vision on this is what I am doing, and if you like it, great, and if you don't, then fine.
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And I suppose I never Yeah, I I guess especially in in pop in my experience of pop, it always felt like there kind of had to be a bit of sacrifice or something.
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And so I think I was quite surprised by that.
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Um and that was really cool.
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Like I was like, "Wow, like I haven't really like sacrificed any of my personality or myself to be in this position."
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And that was something that I always wanted.
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And I guess I was sort of proved wrong that you could get that.
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It made me make kind of think the world was like actually like an okay place for a second, which was cool.
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Yeah, it it was it was cool.
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I'm very grateful for that.
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>> I haven't seen the moment.
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I'm going to watch it at some point, but >> need to. It's fine.
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>> No, I know it you do, but I want to, you know, as your friend, but also as a fan, you know, but I do want to know what it was like making that and what you got out of taking something that for a long time everyone took really seriously and then reminding everyone perhaps as a gift that actually let's not take it too seriously.
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>> Well, it's funny that you say that and that film isn't me going like haha, this is a joke.
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is a joke. Like that film is about what happens when something that you have created uh gains so much traction and speed um and is reinterpreted over and over and over again to the point where it becomes actually quite far away from the initial thing that you intended and how you as the creator of that deal with that and how
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you lose yourself uh a little bit within other people's interpretations of your work, which is obviously something that is just part of being an artist who releases work into like the public domain, you know, that's not me going like poor me, like feel sorry for me, like that is just part and parcel of the deal. >> Mhm. >> Mhm.
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>> Um but it's not Yeah, it's not me going like haha, I'm smarter than all of you guys and you fell for my trick.
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Like, you know, I'm quite honest as an artist sometimes, which people would like never really believe of me because they kind of think I'm a big troll the whole time.
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But um I'm actually just doing what I feel and what I love and a lot of my work is about commenting on how people engage with art in this day and age.
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That's like a big big through thread for me and I think some people have a lot of trouble with like meta commentary.
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I I I understand it, you know, like whenever there's like a movie about art school, people are like, "Ugh, yawn."
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or whatever, but I find it fascinating.
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So, you know, I think the moment is really a kind of about that.
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It's sort of about um it's a movie about death in a way.
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It's very kind of mournful and it's about loss and how you kind of reclaim yourself uh in that loss and what you do when your entire identity not only as an artist but as a a person is attached to one thing and [clears throat] how you kind of grapple with that.
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So, it's not just, you know, like jokes, although there are a few, but you [laughter] know.
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>> I'm glad that you said that because you're right, I got the wrong end of it.
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I I felt like we were entering into Spinal Tap territory, but >> I mean, look, there the film would not have been made without >> a little bit of that. >> Spinal Tap.
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And there is some like shots at the label for sure, you know, like there there is I think there is a version of the film where you can like really tap into that kind of stuff, the kind of like Christopher Guest like sort of drop dead gorgeous vibes.
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But yeah, then there's also a lot of sadness in it for me.
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So, it depends what level you want to engage with it on.
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>> That is the balance that you that you present in your music and it's funny, you know, I've heard you say a couple of times recently you mentioned the troll thing.
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I I don't personally get that from anyone who I talked about your music or whether they're fans or they just know Brad or they're familiar. >> Yeah.
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>> Um but they do definitely acknowledge that you don't just release and move on that you do like to observe and you do like the relationship to observe the relationship between us and the music and how it changes things.
23:03
My thing is Who do you, if anyone, do you share that passion with in your life? Like who else gets that?
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>> I mean, I would say pretty much all of my collaborators.
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Because I think for all of us, it doesn't really just end with the music, which again kind of goes back to the title of the album.
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It's so three-dimensional for us and obviously so, you know.
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But it it's not even just about like, "Oh, how are we going to build the world and make the video and the album artwork or whatever?"
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It's like I don't know, like down to the communication of every single element of the album and the persona or not persona, you know?
23:45
Um >> Is that why you said when you said in Subway text that music isn't important? >> Mhm.
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>> And >> Artistry is important.
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>> Artistry is important. >> Yeah. Yeah.
23:57
Um and obviously that was me giving like my like soundbite version of that.
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But yeah, I I I obviously I think music is important, but I think there are so many great songs.
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>> [snorts] >> But if they're not communicated in a really thorough way, it's I think for me at least harder to feel an attraction and a desire towards them. >> Interesting.
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So if you heard a song in passing that was just really moving or connected with you, you're not going to get the full experience unless you find out the context or the or more to it. >> I like context. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> Um which is probably why I don't really engage as a listener with that many artists, but when I do, I'm like going deep, you know?
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Um >> So you wouldn't say you're a massive music fan. >> No. No.
24:51
I don't know anything about music.
24:51
I don't know anything about music.
24:54
I don't like I don't know any I like rarely listen to records.
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Like people who know me know this like very very well about me.
25:02
Like I I'm I'm really I'm rarely listening to um albums in full, especially new records.
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I'm aware obviously and and that's not being like shady like I'm above it.
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It's just it's just not what I do.
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I used to do it a lot more when I was younger.
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I I was a real like fiend for music when I was younger.
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I was very like into wanting to discover new things and I wanted to know.
25:30
And I think part of it is the whole kind of um when I'm making music, I don't really like to hear anybody else's music because I want to be super honed into my own world.
25:44
>> Yeah, that's pretty wise.
25:44
I mean most people I speak to will will cop to that.
25:47
They're like if I'm zeroing in on my music as an artist, I can't be too influenced or pushed around. >> Exactly.
25:52
Yeah, but you know, there's there's definitely things I hear in isolation where I'm like oh wow.
25:59
I love that and I think the biggest compliment of all is like oh I'm kind of jealous.
26:04
Like I think as an me and Aiden who who shot the album cover, we talk about this all the time.
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It's like that's sort of the biggest compliment.
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If if you like get that pang of jealousy, you're like that must mean it's really really good. You know.
26:17
>> of that one of the last songs you heard that made you feel that way?
26:19
>> You know, I I I think for me the last piece of work like video actually that I saw was uh Young Lean and Raman did that generation video.
26:29
I I messaged both of them. I was like I'm jealous.
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But luckily today when the camera video came out, Raman text Aiden and I and was like I'm jealous.
26:41
So it's all like you know, but it's yeah, so it's not it's kind of you know, I think that's cool actually.
26:50
>> Well, I think the internet in particular, it's slowed down ideas like like a like a young lean Roman idea.
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Like something that feels impactful, stops you.
27:00
Like the first time you saw This Is America, everyone was just like, "Whoa." >> Yeah. Yeah.
27:06
>> And I feel like that's something you are committed to is like it's not enough to just make.
27:11
I've got to do my best to make it stand up in that in that world.
27:18
>> Yeah, and I I think with this album in particular, I've been thinking about it in um kind of a really sort of long-term type way.
27:28
Um I want these videos and sort of the overarching message and feeling of the songs on the album to really be something that people can like live with for a long time and revisit.
27:42
And not to say that I think other records I've made don't feel that way, but actually when I look back at Brat, I think it really was a kind of um sort of culmination of the time in a way.
28:01
Um and I think maybe this album is a little bit like less representative of the time right now.
28:14
>> I think you could listen to a song like I'm Afraid Now and I think someone could listen to it in 20 years time and it'll resonate in a very real way. >> Yeah.
28:21
>> It would be really disingenuous of me to not stop and try to talk a little bit about that song because it's a singularity, too.
28:27
It's it's almost really to me at least listening to it like zeroing in on one particular moment, not the grand scheme of relationships and marriages and all the big swirl of the macro of it.
28:39
It's like, "No, it's that singular moment of like, what does this moment mean to me?" >> Yeah. >> This proposal >> Mhm. >> mean to me? >> Mhm.
28:50
>> And all the things that flood through that. >> Yeah.
28:54
>> That's the observer's point of view.
28:54
I'd love to hear from the writer.
28:57
>> Yeah, I mean, I'm afraid is a very Yeah, it's a very like real song and it's about um George and I's relationship, but more specifically my relationship with uh commitment, I suppose, and um why I kind of have sort of history with that.
29:28
And meeting George, you know, he was sort of the first person who really like understood me so intricately, like my pros and my cons, let's say, you know?
29:44
And also the fact that on top of all of that, I'm also an artist who sometimes is extremely narcissistic. You know what I mean? Like he knows.
29:53
Like >> Yeah, it's funny that lyric when you talk about how, you know, all all this pain is it's serves my art, which is a great excuse I tell myself in order to act unreasonably. Yeah. >> Yeah, exactly.
30:06
Yeah, that is sort of what the whole thing is about.
30:09
Again, just my experience, but sometimes being an artist, you do get to be selfish.
30:18
It's like kind of part of the job.
30:18
You get to be like, I'm not doing that, I'm doing this, I'm doing it my way, I'm canceling this, I'm going to be late. Sorry, by the way.
30:26
>> [laughter] >> Like whatever.
30:28
It's like you get to just be like selfish and >> Damn it, I'm an enabler.
30:33
I was like, you're not late. Come on, sit down. Let's get started. >> Yeah.
30:38
But um you know, it's like then when you put that into a relationship, it's like you don't really get to be selfish all the time.
30:47
Or you or you know, you you can, but it shouldn't be like that. >> Mhm.
30:54
>> And you kind of have to separate those two parts of your brain.
30:58
Like, oh, this isn't like the artist brain.
31:00
This is the like being a good person, like loving the person unconditionally.
31:07
And and you know, and that's obviously not just coming from me.
31:10
Like he's an artist, too.
31:10
You know, it's like it's it works both ways.
31:12
And I think that's why it works for us, cuz we both understand that.
31:19
But yeah, it's like writing that song, it was kind of about the meeting of those two sides of me, you know, the artist and how sometimes it's painful to be an artist.
31:36
Sometimes it's painful to be like a normal functioning human who's supposed to do the right thing all the time. And sometimes it's not.
31:44
And how those two sides of me kind of intersect.
31:51
And how George actually God bless him, is somebody who understands that and understands where it comes from as well, you know.
32:02
>> It obviously means a lot to you.
32:02
I I can always tell because of its position in the album. It's at the center.
32:05
It's at the soul of the record.
32:07
It's a really beautiful, powerful performance, lovingly arranged as well by AG and Finn, I guess. >> Yeah.
32:15
Yeah, they worked on the whole record with you. >> Yeah.
32:17
And they found a way to meet you >> Mhm.
32:22
>> when you really pull yourself open.
32:22
They don't leave you out there on a limb.
32:27
They meet you there musically. >> Yeah.
32:30
>> Does that >> No, it does.
32:30
I mean, we have such an incredible working relationship, the three of us. >> Yeah.
32:36
>> And also, you know, like George isn't a part of this album, but I do have to say like I wouldn't be where I am today without him.
32:44
Like he just gave me so much confidence in myself because he was able to sort of balance me as a a human in our like private life, you know?
32:57
>> That there was almost more to life than just being >> Yeah.
33:00
Yeah, and he made me really happy and, you know, and and still does.
33:03
Don't know why I'm saying past tense.
33:07
>> [laughter] >> But no, you know, I think I owe so much to him because he has helped really allow me to kind of explore these different sides of myself in a way that yeah, sometimes still feels a bit chaotic, but sometimes actually feels quite like um safe, which is really nice.
33:26
And then with Alex and Finn, I mean, we kind of just trust each other innately.
33:31
You know, there's no bad ideas.
33:34
There's There's no nothing too crazy.
33:36
There's nothing too simple.
33:39
And I think we all really have this desire to explore um and kind of challenge each other and push each other in a way that feels really alive.
33:54
Um so, I think I could have probably only made this album with them.
34:00
Um and we had such a good time doing it.
34:03
My favorite part of what I do is the making.
34:05
Like when I am making a record, it's like amazing. It's the best bit.
34:10
I kind of wish I could just make records and never put them out, but obviously that would be uh I'm not quite there yet in terms of like selfless ego. You know what I mean?
34:23
>> No, but I get it though. I get it.
34:23
I get it because I mean, when you can go and spend a few weeks in Paris with people that you don't squash each other when you're not creating.
34:30
I mean, you made it very clear in Magic Metal Montana that you have a very unique friendship with a particular AG. >> Yeah.
34:37
>> I mean, cuz I I just take all your words verbatim in your albums. >> Wait. Wait. Wait.
34:41
>> But, I love that song because you know, it's it's such a tribute to a modern friendship. It's like >> Yeah.
34:47
>> We don't really talk that much, but we speak each other's language when it comes to music and we're super different and like who would have thought AG Cook likes magic and heavy metal and Montana.
34:56
>> Well, clarification on that.
34:56
Magic actually magic the card game. >> Oh, okay. >> Magic the Gathering. >> Okay.
35:03
>> Metal as in um the material. >> Oh.
35:07
>> And Montana the place. Yeah. >> Oh, okay. So, oh, very cool. >> Yeah.
35:11
>> Really like the idea of him with it walking around with a top hat listening to Pantera >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exactly.
35:16
Oh, well, you know, never say never. >> never.
35:19
>> Yeah, he probably does do that, too. >> Never say never.
35:20
>> But, yeah, the not talking thing it's like we we do talk, you know. >> Sure.
35:25
>> But, we don't really do much of that thing in the studio of kind of okay, like what are we going to say today?
35:34
Like doing the whole preamble kind of where are you at emotionally?
35:39
Like we don't do that and we've never really done that.
35:42
We do we we'll we'll obviously talk about things here and there, but it's not really like that kind of what I associate as this sort of 2015 LA songwriter session.
35:55
Like we're not really doing that.
35:57
It's a lot more kind of I come in and we'll just get on the mic and go over a very kind of bare-bones track and then we build it out and there's not too much like what are you trying to say, Charlie?
36:13
Like he's not sort of doing that.
36:16
>> So, when you're doing your vocal for I'm Afraid or even a song like Camouflage or Persona, the friendship doesn't show up in that regard like hey, are you okay? Is this is one to sing?
36:25
It's just like no, we're cool. >> No.
36:28
>> no because we're not sort of like emotionally dead inside, like obviously, but um I think they know that in a way the making of the song is sort of like me exercising the demon in a way, you know, and that's part of the process and part of the in a way the joy of it, you know, getting it out and putting it on the record.
36:57
Going back to what we were saying at the beginning, that idea of kind of every album getting closer to the core of who you are and what makes you happy, this album has been a really big one for me in terms of that.
37:07
Doing it with the people I've done it with, my way, in Paris.
37:16
The first couple of weeks that we were writing there was during fashion week.
37:21
And so that was fun just because there were so many other sort of characters around and that was a very sort of vibrant time, lots of parties and stupid dinners and whatever and you know, we could go out and see a bunch of people and come back and write and you know, or
37:37
not, like just that was cool and also we were all like dressing really well the whole time which was cute, you know, we would sort of show up to the studio and like Alex was um doing uh the music for a McQueen show whilst we were there, you know, and I was there for Saint Laurent, so like the same thing. He was just there for us, so he was just
37:57
He was just there for us, so he was just rocking his, you know, but you know, it was great and it was cool like that it was sort of we were kind of playing into that a little bit.
38:07
>> And that was very fun.
38:09
I've been so surprised around the sort of about the conversation around genre with this cuz I've never been like that interested in genre to be honest, like >> If you don't look at things through the filter of genre, then even if you have words to describe it, how do you attribute some definition to what you've made?
38:30
How do you kind of consider it at all?
38:34
>> Well, I think we we we set out some rules, right?
38:36
Where we'll be like like okay, for example, actually on Brandt, we were kind of like we can't really use razor bass.
38:45
Like because we used that so much on Pop 2. >> Yeah.
38:51
>> You know, and Alex and Finn talk about this way more eloquently than I do, but that was like one of our like slight like rules, you know?
38:57
And I think there were things with this album [clears throat] that we we also had sort of slight rules.
39:06
Less tune, less auto-tune was one of them. >> Yeah, that's it.
39:12
>> Kind of definitely using more live instrumentation, live drums, things like that was another which obviously is not like the most drastic rule of all time, but when you come to uh like my music, that kind of is, you know?
39:26
Like I haven't used a lot of live drums on my records in the past.
39:31
And so having Alex play on some of the songs was like a really kind of big cool thing.
39:37
And also, you know, his style of drumming is quite particular, just like both of the guys, the way they're playing is kind of specific, you know?
39:51
With guitar, so those were our we it wasn't like a kind of genre rule, it was more just like I don't know.
40:00
I George and I actually talk about this a lot.
40:01
I think sometimes like setting limitations can actually lead to really interesting decisions being made, you know?
40:08
Because when you're within these boundaries, you're kind of forced to make sonic decisions that maybe you wouldn't make you wouldn't have made if you had all of the tools.
40:22
>> you're forced to make writing decisions, too, because all of a sudden the way you approach these songs is in step with these limitations.
40:27
You got to zero in on the message and what is you're trying to say.
40:31
Otherwise, it's it's I think it's quite easy as a writer, especially someone like yourself who moves so eloquently in arrangement and creatively with ideas as a writer to be able to go, "Okay, I could get to the point or I could just lean into this bit of production and do something kind of abstract and just >> Yeah, move you away a little bit.
40:47
There's none of that going on here.
40:47
It's like straight down the line. >> Yeah, thank you.
40:49
I think as well for me like lyrically, I think in ways all of the songs are sort of about process or my relationship to process and I think that was quite a guiding light in terms of how the production ended up sounding, too.
41:09
Um so, that was quite an important thing for us.
41:13
>> Did you have fun writing Persona? >> Yeah, I did.
41:16
You know what's funny about Persona is like I sent it to um I sent it to Aiden and I was like, "Who do you think this is about?" And he was like, "Me. It's about me."
41:27
And I was like, "It's actually not about you, but it left me realizing that like a lot of my friends probably will think it's about them and it's actually not really about one person.
41:38
It's sort of about I mean, in in ways it's about me, too. You know what I mean?
41:43
It's like >> Yeah, the line I see you when you see me is mutually applicable. >> Exactly. Exactly. But it it is funny.
41:51
It's in a ways in a way it's sort of like a you're so vain, I suppose. >> Yeah, it is.
41:57
>> [laughter] >> But yeah, going back to like the first line of the album, me and my friends, I think I feel very lucky that I have found people who truly get me and what I want to say and I can collaborate with them with such ease and um that just brings me so much happiness, to be honest.
42:23
>> Which just leaves the existential, which brings us to no one lasts forever.
42:27
>> Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
42:27
>> Right, when you don't have to worry about someone across the room anymore, you just got to think about like, when does this end? >> Yeah.
42:35
>> And what happens after.
42:35
And I love the David Cronenberg piece where the idea of oblivion being freedom is such a I'd never heard that before and it was >> What amazing [snorts] phrase.
42:46
You know, and he and he's so yeah, and he's so right and God, like doing that with him was just so special.
42:55
So, we met for the first time in Toronto last year at the film festival there.
42:59
I was there with a film called Arúbssia and >> Haven't seen it.
43:08
>> You haven't seen any of my films and that's totally cool. Um I'll get you links. Don't worry, babes.
43:17
And um we met I I just wanted to meet him.
43:19
I kind of like reached out thinking he would cuz obviously he's from there and I was kind of thinking like, oh, this probably won't happen, but he was down.
43:28
We just went for a coffee and we just spoke about um art and life and I was asking him a lot of questions about how he shoots and you know, I'm such a fan of his and we actually got along really well and he was telling me about this um
43:47
time where he was going home and he kind of collapsed and um had this moment where he was like, oh, okay, I think this is maybe the moment that I'm going to go and I was asking him about the things he was thinking about during that moment. Um
44:07
Um and his response was just so present and you know, I naively was asking him like, "Were you thinking about your work and like art and like and he was like, "No, like obviously not.
44:27
I was thinking about my, you know, loved ones and also just being at peace with that this is the moment."
44:34
And I that that conversation really stuck with me and after we wrote this song we kind of knew we wanted to have this sort of spoken outro.
44:47
Um kind of lamenting on this idea of no one lasting forever, nothing lasting forever.
44:53
We're kind of going back and forth about who that person could be and then I remembered the conversation I'd had with David.
45:00
And so I sent him some of the album and then I sent him the song and just asked him if he would want to talk at the end if he responded to the song and he said that he did.
45:12
And so I flew back to Toronto and we just sat in a studio and had a conversation for an hour where I asked him a bunch of questions.
45:22
The whole recording is actually so incredible and I'm really I felt like very grateful that I have that, you know.
45:33
And towards the end of our conversation he kind of started talking about that story again and then dropped that crazy phrase of oblivion is freedom. >> It's me.
45:44
>> And I sent it to the guys and it was funny like they had asked me who they were there, they had asked me like, "As you're going, will you just flag like the parts that you think could be used?"
45:55
And I basically flagged like the entire hour.
45:58
Like every second I was like, "This This Cuz he was just saying so much amazing stuff, you know, um hearing him talk about art and how he sees himself as an artist and a director and um a public figure versus like not He doesn't really see himself as that, you know, like It was all very very interesting to me, so I flagged so much of it.
46:22
And then, yeah, this phrase kind of came out at the end, and Alex and Finn really gravitated towards that, and they kind of built out the outro of the song that way.
46:33
>> Yeah, just magnificent.
46:34
>> Yeah, and I sent it to David cuz he had been so chill.
46:36
He was like, "Do whatever, like chop it up. I don't care." He was very very chill.
46:42
And um yeah, he he was happy, so that was it.
46:46
And now, I It's funny like listening to that, I'm like I think it's kind of it's sort of it's It's changed the way I think about a lot of things, actually, that conversation and that song and what I want from my life, uh which is really to do the things that I love in the moment that I want to do them and not sort of torture myself thinking about the consequences.
47:24
And I think I've always known that in the back of my mind, but hearing, honestly, like a hero of mine sort of say that to me on one of my own songs, um has really just cemented that for >> Does it help you feel that way when you look at your album cover and you see these three people stacked, who each of them have been on their own unique journey, individuals in every way, >> Yeah.
47:48
>> hugely influential in every way, but outliers? >> Yeah.
47:54
I mean, yeah, like I I have to pinch myself to like get a reality check and be like, "Oh my god, these three people are on my album cover."
48:06
>> me you were there on the day.
48:07
>> Oh my god, yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:07
We were there and and it was it was such a cute day being real.
48:12
Like Aiden and I Aiden was shooting it as I said and we were obviously so nervous cuz you know, it's like three legends in the room at the same time.
48:22
We were right down to the line.
48:25
We had to hand in like the vinyl artwork like the next day.
48:29
Like no question otherwise we would have missed the vinyl deadline.
48:30
You know, all that boring stuff. >> Yeah.
48:33
>> And so we were like, "Oh my god, if we don't get it now, we're fucked." And And we did. They came.
48:38
It was amazing and um it was the first time they'd all kind of been in the room together.
48:44
I think Marty and Mark had possibly met before um but there was a lot of kind of nervous energy around which was also quite sweet.
48:56
>> Yeah, cuz John Cale doesn't play either. >> No, he doesn't. He doesn't. He doesn't.
49:02
Um and yeah, it was one of those days where I was like, "Wow, I'm really going to remember this for the rest of my life and this is probably never going to happen again."
49:15
Um and I felt very emotional uh being in that room with those three people and my best friend shooting the image.
49:29
I was like, "Wow, this is Going back to selfish, I was like, "This is one for me."
49:36
You know, you know, I was because they mean so much to me and I think everybody probably has their their own sort of trifecta of music, fashion, film. >> Sure. >> For me it's them.
49:51
>> I wasn't sure if you were going to go play shows on this record cuz I would imagine that that would have been the one thing that would have been like, "I'm tired.
49:56
Do I want to go hit the road again?" I mean >> Mhm. Yep.
50:00
>> Is there any truth but the truth in that? >> Yes. I'm hyped. I'm ready.
50:06
>> And the show is going to be off the hook.
50:07
There's no doubt about that.
50:09
But we should acknowledge it takes a lot out of people. >> Yeah, yeah. And you know what?
50:11
Like I I'm a bit of a baby when it comes to touring. Like >> Right.
50:16
>> I don't tour a lot anyways.
50:16
There's so many artists who tour endlessly and I that to me is is like a superpower.
50:22
It's so admirable and wild and it takes so much stamina and I don't know how they do it.
50:33
Like I find being on tour very emotional and volatile and physically quite challenging and mentally like very destructive.
50:48
Um which is why generally speaking I I don't do a lot of touring.
50:51
Um even though obviously there are moments where I'm like, "This is the best thing ever and I'm having the best time."
50:58
And I there were moments like that in the past and I'm sure there'll be moments like that in the future.
51:06
But I will tour the record and I am looking forward to the tour.
51:09
It's going to be very different than the previous one and that is inspiring to me to kind of like switch it up and I hope people, you know, like it.
51:19
Um but yeah, it won't be a long tour. >> Yeah.
51:24
When you announced it I was like, "Wow, okay. This is cool.
51:26
We're going to get a chance to go around again."
51:28
because you know, this record is enough.
51:29
How are you sort of You haven't stopped working since I've known you.
51:36
You know, this has been a incredible life so far.
51:41
But it's got to go somewhere, right?
51:41
All that All that stress has to go somewhere. >> Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny.
51:45
It's like after Brit, I was I really was like, "I'm not going to make another record for a while." Not not like ever.
51:51
I think everybody sort of took that statement as like, "Oh, she's retiring." Like, no.
51:57
Um but I really did think I would have like quite a long pause.
52:00
And then, you know, inspiration struck and I feel that if that happens, you kind of have to chase it and follow it and you know, cuz you don't know whether that might be the last time that it happens.
52:15
So, in a dream world, I would really like to take a pause after this album musically. Um but I don't know.
52:29
If inspiration comes along, I'm not going to deny it.
52:31
But I would like to uh sort of chill for like 2027, 2028.
52:38
Maybe make some films, maybe write like, you know, not not songs.
52:45
Like, write a script or just for myself. But maybe I don't know.
52:52
Maybe we'll be sat down this time next year. Probably not that soon.
52:55
But, you know, you never know.
52:57
Like, I you know, I'm I'm just going where the wind takes me, really. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]