0:00
The stores you guys have are very nice.
Search this video
0:02
I just went to the one in Pasadena.
0:02
It's They're all very nice.
0:04
>> Somebody drove through the Pasadena one.
0:06
Like a car wrecked [music] through the front glass. Yeah. Ain't that wild? >> Was it a Tesla? >> No.
0:10
I don't even know what kind of car it was.
0:12
>> Is the future of driving really going to be fully autonomous?
0:14
This week on Access, we've got R. J.
0:16
Scarring, the CEO of Rivian.
0:19
We talk about EV range anxiety, what large driving models actually mean, the importance of car design, and why some people just want their cars to be all black, me included.
0:31
First though, Ellis and I talk about what Meta's big metaverse layoff signal and how Anthropic is shaking things up in the AI world with the release of Clawed Co. Here we go.
0:46
>> Ellis, how's it going, man? You recovered from CES?
0:48
Yeah, you know, as as it turns out, I think uh maybe I wasn't as well as I thought I was to do the interview last week.
0:54
I was listening on the car ride to work today and I was like, man, I sound so nasely even with the uh Ziotics, the running theme of the show.
1:04
I felt okay, but my voice just sounded different.
1:06
And I feel like yours has too. Oh, it sounded horrible.
1:10
>> When you when you have drink before a recording, which is obviously ill advised, but we're also >> trying to be podcast rock stars, so you know, couple drinks at the Google Mixer. You got to do that.
1:20
Not going to bed early in Vegas.
1:24
>> You know, when I was first thinking about doing this show with you, I was thinking about how much I used to love Dignation when they would just get trashed and do Dignation.
1:30
Did you ever watch that back in the day? >> No.
1:34
>> Um Kevin Rose and Alex Ald.
1:34
watch Kevin Rose on TAT TV though Tech TV fanboy.
1:42
>> My instate of this pod is we are in some really cool in-person studio at like 500 p. m.
1:47
on a Thursday or Friday with a few bruskies >> or or mecals.
1:51
That's like we got to get to that point if we can if our bodies can uh can survive it.
1:58
>> Mecal Negroni is my move.
1:58
I mean I'm definitely funnier uh but also a lot more likely to cancel myself.
2:02
I've been getting some good feedback on IRL Ellis.
2:08
Uh, and uh, you brought the heat last week. >> Is that so?
2:11
It's almost as if as my job I charm founders.
2:15
[laughter] >> I like them.
2:20
I mean I feel like >> in some other world I think of myself in a similar vein as someone who has a lot of interests tries to bring them together to make great products and help people receive them the right way.
2:33
I mean obviously I don't make software but I feel like I have a lot in common with them.
2:40
I definitely don't think I'm as crazy or driven as they are.
2:42
Uh but I feel like I I get them. I get them. >> Yeah.
2:48
Well, before we get too far into the episode, we usually do this at the end, but I just wanted to remind everyone that leaving a review, giving us five stars, thumbs up on YouTube, subscribing on YouTube really matters a lot for a new show like this.
3:00
Uh, we're actually going to be doing an audience survey in the coming weeks as well. So, stay tuned for that.
3:06
This is to help us make money.
3:08
It's also to help us have good, high quality advertising on the show.
3:13
uh that feels true to what we want to do and what we think the audience uh will care about.
3:18
So anyway, yeah, it's been really amazing to get some of the early feedback we've gotten on on the show and how people are enjoying it and it's already becoming, you know, kind of part of people's weekly media diet, which is awesome.
3:29
But yeah, again, just if you have a second, leave a review would be amazing.
3:33
Um and then yeah, we've got R. J.
3:35
the CEO of Rivian on the show in a little bit who is the most Clark Kent looking tech CEO I have ever seen.
3:42
Yeah, it's pretty impressive what he's done, especially starting it as long ago as he did.
3:46
I mean, as you hear on the show, I come from Detroit, and there have just been so many fake outs with like new startup car companies over the years that always show some interesting new design that kind of looks like a concept car, but is actually going to be real.
4:02
It's going to be more tech- ccentric.
4:03
I mean, hate to say, you know, you have to give Tesla credit for being the one to do that first, but um yeah, people seem to love their Rivian cars.
4:13
I saw that they're like number one in owner satisfaction three years in a row, just ahead of BMW, Subaru, and Tesla.
4:22
Um so, they built something really impressive.
4:26
Um I can say that as a car guy. >> Yeah.
4:30
Um, before we get into that convo, I am headed to Paris tomorrow uh for a few days.
4:36
I'm actually gonna see our buddy Anton Martin uh from AMO, one of your former clients, I believe, who I would say is considered a kind of god tier French a consumer product guy.
4:47
Uh, if there are any other tech companies in Paris, I should see uh people please send them my way.
4:57
But yeah, I'm looking forward to I haven't been in Paris in a minute.
5:00
And then I'll be in Switzerland the following week um for Davos uh which is going to be very interesting.
5:06
And I can't wait to record a podcast with you at like midnight.
5:11
>> You just gravitate to power, don't you? >> I do. >> Wherever it flows. >> Yeah.
5:16
[laughter] No, I'm doing some live interviews there.
5:18
Um got a lot of great people. Uh Deus from Google.
5:22
uh the co-founder of Reflection AI, which I think people will be hearing a lot about, but that's going to be in the sources newsletter all next week.
5:29
So, uh please check that out if you're curious. sources. news.
5:31
But yeah, otherwise, what's uh what's what's on the docket this week?
5:35
Um >> first I want to say I feel like that is the only circumstance where a fireside chat, as they say, is actually warranted. >> Oh, yeah.
5:44
>> Like a cozy cabin in Davos.
5:46
>> It can be banned in all other situations, Southby and beyond. >> Yeah.
5:51
>> Let's keep it to the cabins, folks.
5:52
That's the thing about Davos I found out is because it's such a small little ski town where, you know, it becomes, you know, the Illuminati IRL, you know, once a year uh in January and Trump is going this year, so it's going to be even crazier.
6:04
But apparently to even have your own hotel room at all is considered like you need to be you need to be a head of state or like Jensen Wong.
6:12
uh I am going to be shacking up uh with with some other folks and apparently that's just like it's interesting to see the pecking order and how it uh translates to such a insular small environment uh in the mountains in Switzerland.
6:29
>> Okay, so I'm picturing it.
6:29
You're going to you're going to wait in line to go up to Trump and you're going to have say Mr. Trump I have sorry Mr.
6:34
Trump I have two questions for you.
6:37
One, what's on your home screen?
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Two, Claude or Chatg GPT?
6:41
What do you personally [laughter] use?
6:44
I will not be talking to Trump.
6:44
Um, but, uh, good questions.
6:47
Um, uh, I guess just like two news items we wanted to touch on before we get into this convo with R. J.
6:54
, we had Alex Heml from Meta on the pod last week, the head of wearables.
6:59
And then this week, Meta laid off 10% of employees [snorts] in Reality Labs, which is Heml's group.
7:05
But it's the metaverse side of the house, the meta side of the house, not Himmel's side, which is glasses, wearables, present but connected, which I think just signals this shift that they're making to this form factor.
7:19
And uh, you know, not to pat ourselves in the back, but I think hearing from Alex is important going to this year because he is, you know, definitely um, one of the most influential and increasingly so people in this space and I think this move kind of signals that. I don't know. What did you make of it? Yeah.
7:35
I mean, you know, it's not very many people, but you just kind of don't see it happening.
7:42
>> People, it's a good amount. >> Oh, it is. Oh, geez.
7:44
>> They have a [ __ ] ton of people in Reality Labs. It's like 10,000 people.
7:45
A >> lot of people keeping it real over there in Reality Labs. Um, okay.
7:50
Well, strike that comment.
7:52
In any event, yeah, I mean, I wanted to ask him last week.
7:54
We didn't we didn't get around to it because we were having fun talking about other things, but it's kind of a funny situation, isn't it?
8:02
I mean, it's not like Meta was positioned per se as a holding company the way that something like Snap Inc.
8:09
was or Proctor and Gamble.
8:12
It's one of those situations where Meta is the name on the set.
8:17
>> You can't I don't you can't say Snap was a holding company.
8:19
You mean just because of Spect Snap, Inc.
8:20
wasn't a consumer-facing company or wasn't supposed to be. >> All right. >> Yeah.
8:25
Anyway, let's let's say Alphabet. Let's say Alphabet. Meta is not Alphabet.
8:29
It's intended to be a consumerf facing company.
8:30
And the reason you ostensibly change the name is to try and, you know, shed some of the baggage and show the world your new focus, have a new brand to put on the Oculus headsets and the AR headsets.
8:43
But the name, I mean, it probably doesn't matter because I think most people probably don't know it had anything to do with the metaverse anyway, but it ju it is pretty interesting, kind of ironic, you know, to rename your your world's fastest growing company after something that is so quickly out of fashion, right?
9:01
Yeah, I mean the Quest the the VR headset stuff is just not working.
9:04
Uh they're really scaling back all that stuff.
9:07
Meanwhile, I saw a story that they're trying to double capacity for the glasses with Lexodica who's the partner that makes the Ray-B bands and all the Oakleys and all of those with them to 20 million units this year up from 10 million.
9:21
So at the same time they're seeing this huge inflection with interest in these glasses which we again we talked about all last week with him.
9:28
check that out if you haven't uh watched it already.
9:30
Um the metaverse side of the house which you know I just it's it's just not a thing.
9:38
I mean like you even see this with Division Pro.
9:40
I mean it's just the whole category has floundered for a decade and sure it may have caught on with more niche groups, gamers, teen boys, you know, but like it's it's just not a thing that these companies hoped it would be.
9:55
And I think uh Meta in particular is realizing that they need to shift towards where the growth is. >> Yeah.
10:01
I mean, and I'm bullish on VR long term.
10:03
I think as people in tech, everybody wants to be ahead of who's ahead of who's ahead.
10:07
And that's why we had Google Glass as a little, you know, glass cube on your eyeball 10 years ago, how early that was.
10:15
I'm bullish on VR eventually, especially once it gets smaller, more immersive.
10:19
Uh but what I'm not certain of at all is that anybody is ever going to call it the metaverse.
10:25
I mean, we asked this uh, you know, when we had Dave on from Roblox is like, "This is, you know, effectively the world's biggest metaverse where people are moving goods and characters and identities between all these different experiences and this and that."
10:37
And he didn't answer it directly, but uh, yeah, it's it's interesting to place such a bet like that on a word.
10:44
And I mean, I get it like half the companies I work with are trying to own a term or coin a new term.
10:51
uh something like vibe coding or 10x engineer.
10:54
That's the ultimate uh the ultimate thing I feel like for somebody in tech is to attempt to coin a term.
11:01
But uh yeah, I'm not sure how well Metverse worked out.
11:05
>> The other big thing this week is clawed car.
11:07
>> Thanks for that charity laugh.
11:10
>> It's [laughter] a charity.
11:10
I mean >> I'm someone who cares too much about words. Sorry. >> It's okay. It's your business. I get it.
11:16
Um speaking of words, how do you feel about Claude Co-work? It's a good name, right?
11:20
Yeah, it's uh been popping off in my feeds.
11:23
I mean, people are using it essentially to clean up their downloads folder, I think, is the number one use case for cloud code, which is like able to agentically work on your computer and inside Chrome.
11:36
Uh clearly inevitable this kind of stuff, whether it's agentic in the browser or on your computer.
11:41
I guess it just has access to files now.
11:43
I mean, I don't I don't know about you, I don't work with too many files these days.
11:48
Uh, so it's a bit less interesting to me.
11:50
Maybe I just haven't seen the right tweet yet.
11:53
>> I think files are a part of it.
11:53
LLM on your machine with file system access is very interesting, especially if it's clawed.
12:01
But I think the real thing here is this is extending the magic of cloud code, which is like, you know, obviously totally enraptured the engineering class in Silicon Valley and I think for a lot of people is AGI.
12:13
It's just like what cloud code can do to normies who have no idea uh how coding languages work or even the basic building blocks that you need to even operate something like cloud code.
12:25
So this is basically cloud code for normies uh which they released this week for cloud max subscribers.
12:30
So this is the higher tier subscription.
12:34
I assume it's pretty expensive to run this but it's actually seems like a pretty open-ended system uh in the same way that claude code is.
12:42
And I don't know, I've just been seeing like people saying this is as big a deal as the original release of Chat GPT.
12:49
Uh that, you know, this is really going to change how a lot of uh you know, people that are already on the frontier of AI, which I would consider if you're listening to a show like this, you you probably are are going to get work done.
13:00
going to get work done. And to me it signals how Anthropic is just so singularly focused on this use case which is tool use empowering you know people in like the productivity sense uh and really going for the cons you know not only just mass enterprise but the proumer quote unquote thinking person's AI
13:24
meanwhile you know openai bought torch this healthcare app this week openai is going for this mass market uh Kleenex for AI and AI for normies market and you really see the two strategies uh diverging and and going at what they're going at when you see releases like this and and uh I don't know Anthropic just is cooking with gas. I
13:45
I mean um if you had have told me that Anthropic was out shipping OpenAI on product in January 2026, you know, just a year ago, I wouldn't have believed you. >> Yeah.
13:57
as also going back to the word choice, pretty specific term they chose to use to brand this thing. Claude co-work.
14:04
>> Yeah, >> I mean that's pretty different from the others, right?
14:06
Co-work verse co-pilot verse agent uh is the term dour that everybody seems to be using.
14:13
It seems like they've built a nice brand and texture around this kind of thoughtful style of working that is helping you as opposed to replacing you.
14:25
Um, so I I did appreciate that.
14:29
>> Yeah, I just uh I may switch to cloud, man.
14:32
I you know, OpenAI and chat has so much of my memory and my context.
14:34
I mean, we were a couple episodes ago going through like our year wrapped, you know, in chat GPT and it just knows so much about me.
14:42
But at the same time, I'm increasingly frustrated by the responses it gives, the way it structures things.
14:50
And then when you use Claude and you use like the newest version of Opus, for example, like it's just so much better.
14:56
And I'm thinking of just porting over, you know, as much as I can of the context that chat has on me and putting it into Claude.
15:02
Um, >> well, just I'm gonna try reverse engineering it and saying like, tell me everything you know about me, creating a master file, and then like some of the key things that I've been putting in on my side, on the prompt side, and then just uploading that to Claude and like, >> oh my god, >> that's genius, Alex.
15:20
>> I mean, you know, >> that's like natural language file export.
15:22
I mean, that's been like one of the biggest problems in tech for the last 20 years is that it's like impossible to export or import anything between services, which locks people in. >> Yeah.
15:34
>> You maybe just say to Chat GPT, "Hey, uh, I'm breaking up with you at least for a while. We need a break.
15:38
[laughter] Can you uh give me everything I need to tell Clyde in order to get it up to speed on all of my quirks and and favorite writing motifs?" >> Yeah.
15:48
>> Yeah. And you will know and I think they are still in a code red but you will know when open AI is really in trouble when they block your ability to get that information out of chat GBT because that is the lock in when all these models are
16:00
just rapidly progressing and competing with each other and to be honest like on the model and tool use side anthropic seems to be kicking everyone's ass uh it really creates a scary predicament for for chat GPT even though like most people use it. It is again it's Kleenex
16:14
It is again it's Kleenex AI for most people.
16:16
Uh where the real kind of use use heavy use comes from which is like the the early adopter crowd the proumer anthropics really uh really doing it man.
16:28
I don't know >> you the congressman from West Virginia Mr.
16:33
Altman why aren't you allowing users to export open is literally in your name.
16:40
[laughter] I mean, I feel like that's it's going to be dangerous for them to to do that or prevent that.
16:44
I mean, I feel like historically companies, Apple included, have made it very hard to export and they've just been able to chalk it up to like, oh, I haven't built that feature yet.
16:53
I mean, most apps don't have a file export tool.
16:58
And I don't think it's always, you know, trying to retain your mode.
17:00
I think it's just like one more thing to build, not a high priority.
17:03
But if it's actively preventing it from being able to create a portable version of your data uh or of your identity, I feel like that's a different story and and a lot less defensible uh from a you know competition point of view.
17:19
>> There's got to be a polymarket on will there be a Senate hearing about AI memory?
17:22
Uh and we should place our bets. Uh >> there we go.
17:26
>> Or or excuse me, a callshi. Shout out to Rick.
17:28
Uh well, with that, we should probably get to RJ, right?
17:30
Uh, let's let's kick it over to >> ladies and gentlemen, start your engines.
17:36
Or wait, can you say that with EVs? Sorry, I had to. >> Start your batteries.
17:41
>> Press your on buttons.
17:41
[laughter] >> It doesn't quite sound the same. All right, here we go. [snorts] [music] >> Hey. >> Hey guys. How's it going? >> It's been a minute.
17:53
I think the last time we saw each other it was the green room at Code like two or three years ago. >> Oh wow. It has been a while.
17:59
Do you remember Alex or is this just formality?
18:03
Just hopped on the podcast.
18:03
[laughter] >> No, I remember him. Yeah.
18:07
[laughter] >> Tell us his favorite color.
18:12
>> His favorite color is blue. >> Uh, black.
18:13
That's not a color, though.
18:16
>> Black's your favorite color.
18:17
>> I'm not Look, I'm It's been a rough >> They're going to kick you out of LA, Alex.
18:20
[laughter] >> They're gonna deport you.
18:25
>> Uh, thanks for doing this, R. J. >> Yeah, of course. It's fun to do it. >> Yeah.
18:28
Speaking of colors, I saw this uh chart yesterday sourced from one of those home paint companies that showed the transition of interior paint colors in homes from like beautiful like knives out mansion style reds and greens toward like everything kind of matte and sand whether it is the millennial gray kitchen or some cars.
18:50
Have have you seen that as well in in the auto industry >> like going to softer colors?
18:57
>> Just I guess a bit more conservative take on like I don't know maybe it's on the one hand more naturalistic on the other more blah in some people's minds or is it cyclical?
19:06
Yeah, I think colors move around so much and uh I think though in general we do see like the vast majority of customers always like the gray silvers and whites and and interiors it's like light like a white or light light light light light like light like light like light like light like light like light like light like light like light like light like gray or black color.
19:23
We we've done some interesting colors and both the we did a green interior which is amazing but the take rate was quite low >> really. >> Yeah.
19:33
You'd think that would be wellreceived considering >> it was well No, no, it was wellreceived.
19:38
It's just uh even people who liked it are like, "Yeah, that's awesome. I love it.
19:41
It's so It's so cool and eclectic, but I'm going to go with the black."
19:46
>> What is the Rivian color? Is it Is it yellow?
19:48
Do you guys have a standard color? >> Standard? No, we don't.
19:51
We don't have We have like a brand color.
19:52
We call it compass yellow.
19:54
It's a color of You can see on like on our logo on the sides of the of the emblem, there's a little yellow like accent. That's our compass. Yellow. >> Yeah.
20:04
I was uh thinking about y'all the other day.
20:06
I was down in San Diego for a minute.
20:10
Drove by the shop and then over Thanksgiving I was up at the uh Peterson Auto Museum and uh got to see the OG Bladeunner spinner which was pretty sick.
20:21
I did not get to see the Fifth Element uh cab or Johnny cab from Total Recall, unfortunately.
20:27
Have you been to that museum recently here in LA? >> No, not recently.
20:30
So, what's there right now?
20:32
>> Uh, a whole bunch of things. I guess it rotates.
20:35
If you really want to see it all, you have to pay to upgrade to the vault, you know, to see the whole whole Jay Leno collection or whatever there is down there.
20:44
But, um, yeah, it was just making me wonder.
20:46
I mean, I guess the car designs themselves are so cyclical as well.
20:50
Were there, and I'm from Detroit, so I feel like I'm heavily steeped in concept cars and auto shows.
20:56
Were there any like old designs that really inspired you guys?
20:58
I mean, for me personally, I've always been inspired by a lot of the early Porsche stuff.
21:01
That's um it's like I grew up loving that, but it it didn't really inspire Rivian in this.
21:09
It inspired me like to love cars, but it didn't inspire me in terms of the form factors of uh of what we ultimately built.
21:16
I think for us, we found a lot of like a lot of our inspiration was around wanting to find these balances of things that you don't typically find together.
21:26
is something that's really capable but also approachable and friendly.
21:28
Um, you know, it's probably manifesting most clearly in in the way we approach the headlight graphics on the car.
21:34
So, when you look at like the front of our R1S with a quad motor, it's, you know, it has over a,000 horsepower.
21:40
It can out accelerate any Porsche or any Ferrari, but it looks really nice.
21:44
Uh, it looks really like friendly.
21:46
Um, you know, in a lot of vehicles that have that kind of performance, typically they start to look like they're like really angry or pissed off.
21:56
And we we always subscribe to the idea that you can simultaneously be really powerful and really capable as a vehicle, but but have an approachable look. >> Yeah.
22:06
I think it's just endlessly fascinating how cars have faces and give off vibes.
22:11
Maybe you've seen that like old Volkswagen commercial about people who look like their cars and whatnot, but am I like a mega sci-fi nerd or have you heard of uh the designer Sid me?
22:22
>> No, the concept artist. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah, I know of him. Yeah. >> God bless. Okay.
22:25
I'm so happy we could talk about Sid Me on on the call.
22:27
I think one of the things I love about him, and you know, for those who aren't familiar, I mean, Bladeunner is definitely on the dystopian side, but I feel like he's more associated with future utopia, whether it's like uh the world of Mass Effect or some of the things you might have seen in like the above space colony of Allesium or otherwise.
22:46
I love that he's representing I mean, you don't see this a whole lot in tech where we tend to go straight to the evil dystopia, but maybe in cars you could portray more of that beautiful bright future.
22:56
I mean, is that a factor at all or at least staying away from uh from stuff that mightote the wrong ideas?
23:02
I mean, even with how you portray the autonomous stuff.
23:04
I mean, it comes back to your question on color.
23:06
Um, design language, color, uh, material choices all have, um, you know, they have a they reflect a certain tonality.
23:21
And what we're what we [snorts] find is the the design language and design decisions that that that speak to something that's more calming or more approachable uh is more consistent with certainly what we want as a brand.
23:33
But I think culturally and from a societal point of view, a lot of people are drawn to that.
23:38
Uh something that's feels timeless. It's not too aggressive.
23:42
It's not trying too hard. Um, yeah.
23:46
And and I think as you go like the other end of the spectrum, if you go like very dystopian, it it sends a signal about maybe how you you are, you know, how you see yourself or how you see the world.
23:58
>> I mean, clearly a lot of people want to look evil.
24:00
I feel like whether it's with the black Mercedes Darth Vader helmet look or the Cybert trucks entire vibe in general. >> Yeah. So, this is interesting.
24:08
So, I will tell you guys something uh that's not that well known, but Rivian offers a black color.
24:17
>> Oh, you never see that out.
24:18
>> Well, uh I'm sorry, Alex, but this is the truth.
24:22
So, it it sells fairly well.
24:25
It's it's it's not the most popular of our colors, but I've tried since the early days to discontinue that color, and ultimately, we keep arriving back at not doing it because there's enough people that want a black SUV.
24:36
And the reason for it is not that I don't like the color black.
24:40
It's just that the a black car, especially a black car with black wheels and blacked out trim, has a certain tonality that's inconsistent with how we want to feel as a brand. It feels too mean.
24:51
[laughter] So, we've we still have black a black color, but it's despite my best efforts and and like our head of design and I have this debate all the time.
24:59
So, I've I was if you actually go look at our black, I was like when I agreed to do a black color, it's actually black with some soul.
25:07
So, if you look up close, it's got like a beautiful bluish purplish flake in it.
25:11
And so, in the sunlight, it has more depth versus like a pure like pure black black. >> So, R. J.
25:19
, you're talking to someone who just convinced his wife to get a murdered out XC90 uh 2026.
25:22
They actually brought the black trim to the US for the first time for this model.
25:29
It was in Europe for a while only.
25:31
So it it looks almost like a Range Rover and it was our compromise because I wanted a Range Rover.
25:37
She thought it was >> she didn't like it.
25:39
She wanted the safety stuff with Volvo.
25:40
And so I was like, "Okay, the concession is you let me get the murdered out version."
25:45
>> So our our head of sales who's who's just an amazing uh he's a he's a friend and he's an amazing leader within the business.
25:52
He has black on black and he has in a matte finish and it actually looks really awesome. I I I I do agree. It looks super cool.
26:00
But anytime I'm around him and he shows up with the car, he's like, "I know you don't like this color."
26:05
I'm like, "No, Gary, I love the color.
26:06
I just think the tonality is a little, you know, a little edgy, but it's it's like an internal joke.
26:12
We talk about this all the time.
26:14
Colors are colors are such a funny thing. >> You could go too far.
26:17
I mean, in the Tesla direction, which like sometimes when I think of Tesla, I think of like Death Star or like when you look at how they do their events, it's like very leaning into the Bladeunner stuff." >> Yeah.
26:28
And I I I think it's actually it's it's a good thing that there's brand diversity.
26:33
The Tesla brand and the Rivian brand are so different and and manifest so differently across every aspect, whether it's our retail locations, the events we run, the way our products look, you know, design choices we make.
26:44
And it's good because some customers going to want that that look.
26:49
Some customers want our look.
26:49
And the world needs to have some choice.
26:52
>> It's clear you're mindful of the consumer sentiment.
26:54
And uh as I'm sure you've read in the headlines, you know, there's so much hesitation and skepticism essent especially across the broader culture of AI and autonomous.
27:05
How are you thinking about that as you as you bring that to market now?
27:07
Uh I assume you want to do it a little bit differently than than the others.
27:10
differently than than the others. I think it's perhaps the the biggest uh technologydriven societal change we're going to experience certainly in our generation but probably in you know in the fullness of history it'll it'll be like a seminal moment in human history and so in fact I'd say there's two like very
27:33
unique moments in history that are happening in our life in our in this you know in our generation which is the first is the end of the fossil fuel era and so if you imagine in history books at a thousand years from now or 2,000 years from now, they're going to say humans lived a certain way for tens of thousands of years, meaning we couldn't travel long distances. We could only
27:50
We could only talk to people we're staying next to.
27:52
We could only eat the things we could gather locally to suddenly living the way we live today.
27:58
And that was built on fossil fuels.
28:00
And you know, that happened over the last 150 years.
28:02
And those fossil fuels also had dire effects on the planet.
28:06
and we switched off of those, you know, between year 2000 and year 2,100.
28:13
And that's like where we're alive right now.
28:14
So that's going to happen in in the course of our lifetime. And that's a huge shift.
28:18
And so that alone is a big deal.
28:20
And then to say simultaneously and by coincidence as that was happening, you know, this other inflection point which is we created artificial intelligence.
28:28
Uh and we're like if this is a thousandstep journey, we're on step two.
28:33
You know, this is like AI as we define it today is three maybe four years old.
28:38
So, it's so early and we've only seen it really manifest at scale through like written word uh images and videos like the the the existence of AI in the physical world is in the very early stages.
28:54
And I think one of the first large scale deployments or embodiment of physical AI is going to be autonomous vehicles.
29:00
And and by the way, autonomous vehicles up until like 2021, 2022 were not actually built with AI.
29:06
These were like rules-based planners.
29:09
These were human described code.
29:12
These were this is not to say they weren't doing machines weren't doing things that humans do, but it wasn't doing it through AI as we now think about AI in terms of like building a model or or a neural net to to describe uh how or to to to control how a vehicle is being operated.
29:27
And so the whole massive shift that we've seen over the last couple of years of AI now completely shifting how we look at designing and building self-driving systems is like we're in the early days.
29:41
And so like I'm super bullish on how fast this is going to roll out.
29:44
The way I say this all the time is the next three to five years for autonomy are going to look so absolutely different in terms of rate of progress than the last 3 to 5 years in terms of autonomy.
29:56
Um you like like orders orders plural of magnitude difference in terms of the rate of progress.
30:04
And we're seeing this firsthand with our own products just because of like some of these big innovations like transformer-based encoding which which didn't exist you know like five years ago.
30:12
So there's just like a very different playing field.
30:16
So with that said, I think autonomy is going to be uh like it's going to become as critical to buying a vehicle as having tires on the vehicle.
30:26
Uh like the idea of buying a car without the ability to drop your kids at school or drop you at the airport um or run to the grocery store and pick up an order like that will just like the utility of the product will be so much lower that people will be like why would I want to buy that old thing?
30:41
um you know, it' be like buying a phone that doesn't have Wi-Fi connectivity, uh or the ability to like check your email.
30:48
Uh and so for like purely nostalgic reasons, you'll see vehicles that don't have autonomy, but otherwise the vast majority of the mass market will want to have it.
30:55
Um and I think that's not that's not like 20 years away. It's not 10 years away.
31:00
I think that's happening in the next three to five years.
31:04
Um and so you have that and then you have AI in the physical world through the lens of robotics.
31:09
And I think we often look at robotics and we our imagination sort of stops at humanoid.
31:15
But it's like smart robotics with reasoning capabilities and with dextrous capabilities that rival or beat h human dexterous capabilities are going to have many different form factors.
31:29
Just like the physical world has an evolutionary breath to it or the biological world has an evolutionary breath to it.
31:34
I think the the world of uh robotics will have some evolutionary breath to it as well.
31:38
I'm envisioning a pickup truck Rivian with a power arm that loads your 2x4s for you. >> Maybe.
31:47
>> Is that what you're picturing as [laughter] well?
31:50
>> I I think every single task that a human can do today will be able to be done by a robot.
31:57
Now, is that in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years?
32:00
I that that is a little less clear, but certainly in the fullness of time, in my lifetime, that will be true.
32:06
Well, speaking of, I mean, I I work with a lot of companies that are automating things that people really don't love, like let's say transcribing an entire interview.
32:14
But, I mean, going back through history, I mean, speaking of like the the the span of history, I mean, driving a car is probably one of the most fun things that's ever been invented, if not like arguably the most fun. >> Yeah.
32:30
>> Unless you're crossing LA at rush hour, but Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. I agree, Alex. Yeah. >> Yeah.
32:34
Where do you think it's going to settle with the stuff that people let the car do for them and the stuff that they still want to do?
32:40
Because I think it just be a shame, you know?
32:43
I mean, obviously there there's a lot to talk about with with safety and and all the all these other things, but um driving is so fun. >> Yeah, it is.
32:53
I look, I'm a huge car enthusiast, so I agree with you.
32:55
I think in >> Well, it's just tough to it's tough to balance that, right?
32:59
Tech companies just want to get rid of everything.
33:02
[laughter and snorts] I don't I don't know if that's true, but in in the foreseeable future, call it in the next decade, maybe even two decades, I think we'll have autonomy will represent a choice.
33:12
So customers will decide, do I want to drive my car or do I want the car to drive me?
33:16
And depending on your situation, I think everyone will fall into, you know, you may find yourself in both categories.
33:26
One may be more than the other, but but there'll be times where even for like the the hardest core driving enthusiast, as Alex said, like being stuck on Interstate 5 in traffic is not fun.
33:35
And so, you'd rather switch off, be on your phone, uh, watch a movie, read a book, something. You'll see that.
33:42
And then you're also going to have customers that want to when you're on, you know, PCH and cruising up the coastline, it's beautiful.
33:50
You want to you want to feel the cargo around the corners.
33:51
Um I think you have some customers who do that.
33:55
Where it gets a little bit fuzzy is you move out beyond call it 10 to 20 years.
34:00
And this is where like a lot of culture and societal elements start to play in.
34:04
But there's no denying that the self-driving vehicle is going to be safer.
34:07
And so then how does that get managed?
34:09
Does driving become more of an activity you do purely for pleasure?
34:14
Sort of like riding a horse you would no longer do for functional reasons, but you do it for pleasure, for joy.
34:19
Um, >> speak for yourself, R. J.? [laughter] >> Yeah.
34:23
I mean, you know, no, very few people, I should say, are using a horse as their method of transportation now uh for for for practical reasons.
34:30
Um, and I think >> you haven't been to Silver Lake lately, have you?
34:36
have you? The hipsters are on some new [ __ ] >> [laughter] >> So the question is does it like you know take the United States today we have over 40,000 people die every year in traffic accidents if you could reduce that by tours of magnitude if you can make that you know a 100 you that is
34:52
that the right decision but you then with that loility to drive yeah it's hard >> insurance rates might decide that right I mean if the insurance companies see that statistically autonomous is just way safer they underwrite that and you know money and economic pressure actually pushes everyone into this future. Do do you think that'll be
35:10
Do do you think that'll be >> I think that's going to be one of the driving forces.
35:13
Yeah, I think another big question which obviously is debated all the time is what does car ownership look like?
35:19
look like? So today in the I'm just speaking to the United States globally is even numbers or the ratio is roughly the same but in the United States there's just over 10 trillion miles that could driven every year which just for a moment like soak that in that's such a
35:30
big number 10 trillion miles and about 99% of those are in assets and vehicles that we own or a household owns meaning all of ride share all of rental represent around 1% of the miles traveled in the United States and so as things like robo taxis become become more available. You do we see a shift
35:49
You do we see a shift away from owning cars and towards using robo taxis?
35:53
Our our view is you're going to see some but it's I don't think car ownership is going to fall off that dramatically in the United States.
35:58
And so what we think will likely happen is we'll see robo taxi be a big very interesting business.
36:04
But personal level four like the idea that my car can truly support my household like it can drive my 10-year-old to you know to baseball practice.
36:14
it can pick up uh you know my partner from the airport.
36:18
It can do all those things.
36:19
Um it doesn't just sit waiting for me to drive it.
36:22
waiting for me to drive it. I think that will likely become true and um but if you like need basic mobility ride share on a autonomous robo taxi is going to likely be very very cheap and so it it'll be become the new entry vehicle is rather than own a car as an entry car
36:38
you say I'm going to I'm going to use a ride share service that's you know has a variable cost that's low you know 50 cents a mile something like that >> I smell a fight you didn't want to come get me you sent the car to the pick up flowers on the way to way to the uh way to the airport. >> There we go. There we go. >> There we go. There we go. >> We'll figure it out. Tech can solve it. >> R. J.
37:02
, before this interview, I was watching your keynote at your all's recent autonomous day in Palo Alto where you were talking about a lot of this stuff and uh I I heard you're calling this a large driving model and I'm wondering did you come up with that?
37:14
How many ad agencies were involved in in coining that term?
37:18
And uh what what technically is a large driving model? >> Yeah.
37:23
Uh so our the actual the technical teams came up with it and [laughter] it's just >> what kind of laugh are we hearing right now?
37:33
>> It's just the most honest description of what it is.
37:34
It's a it's a it's a foundation model and that's large [laughter] that >> for driving >> for driving.
37:43
So the team had a bunch of clever ideas.
37:45
We just decided to keep it simple. Yeah.
37:46
I maybe it's helpful to give a little context on how self-driving's evolved.
37:50
So you know self-driving started as a concept with some of the work that like the DARPA e challenge was or DARPA challenge was doing this is um you know almost you know little less than 20 years ago and the way these early systems were done and in self-driving systems up until the early 2020s including what we launched with as a company uh which you now could like characterize as these autonomous vehicle 1. 0 people say AV 1. 0.
38:16
Uh these systems would have a perception platform, so cameras at a minimum, but likely cameras plus radar and maybe LAR depending on the capability of the system that would perceive everything around the vehicle.
38:31
It would classify everything.
38:31
So it' say like that's a car, that's a bike, that's a person.
38:34
And then it would associate vectors to all those all those classified objects, you know.
38:38
So what's the acceleration, velocity, and x y and z?
38:42
And the all that information would then get handed to a planner and the planner would then make a whole series of decisions around how the vehicle should operate.
38:50
But the planner is a is like a a human written piece of code.
38:52
Uh and this isn't like one line of code.
38:57
This is a pretty complex um you know codebase that would try to describe it would try to codify how to drive a vehicle. >> Human code.
39:06
What even is that anymore? Come on. >> Yeah.
39:09
So that was the way it was done.
39:10
And then a big shift came along and you'll hear this called many things, but essentially like the probably the most commonly referred to way to describe these more 2.
39:19
0 solutions is an endto-end approach where the where you're instead of having a a a rules-based planner that's prescribing how the vehicle operates to have a large parameter like a you big model that you're building that's trained off of a data set of vehicles that are driving.
39:38
And so this large model um is a it's a neural net.
39:43
It's a foundation model that is learning how to drive through observation of many many many you know billions and billions of driven miles.
39:52
And um and so that's that's what we shifted to.
39:55
Uh of course this we're not alone.
39:58
Uh this is what Tesla's doing.
40:00
This is, you know, I'd say anybody who's serious about self-driving is now building these endto-end foundation model based approaches.
40:08
And to do that, it requires a few ingredients.
40:11
You need to control the perception platform.
40:12
So there's no pre-processing of any of the like you don't want a camera from a third party that classifies objects.
40:16
You actually want the raw camera signals. You want the raw radar.
40:20
You want the raw LAR if [snorts] you have it.
40:22
You want to feed that into a data architecture that allows you to extract interesting events.
40:28
So triggered events you want to take that offline.
40:30
So it needs to be sent ideally over Wi-Fi uh to a cloud environment where you can then process it um on a lot of GPUs and you start to build weights in a model that and of course understand what the model is.
40:47
It's a it's it's uh it has many many many different nuances and observations it can pick up on that essentially determine how the vehicle operates.
40:55
And that approach and this is why I said the next three and a half three to five years are going to be so different.
41:00
That approach is remarkably different than these AV 1. 0 solutions.
41:07
And so we launched with a we had a mobile eye frontfacing camera.
41:09
We had some of our own stuff around it, but it was very much a rules-based environment.
41:14
We we started re-engineering the system around a around a an AIcentric approach uh late 2021, early 2022, but we completely threw away everything like we didn't use any of the original sensors, any of the original codebase.
41:24
It's a full new platform.
41:26
We launched it in middle of 2024.
41:27
And so it's built a lot with a lot more uh similarities to like an LLM.
41:34
Uh I say similarities, it's not the same as LM, but similarities uh to an LLM foundation model.
41:39
And so I think there's going to be more than one less than five large driving model type foundation models that exist um at least in in the western world in the United States.
41:51
I think China will have its own set of uh foundation models for driving.
41:55
I don't think I don't think many companies have all the ingredients to do this really well, but it's it's by far our biggest focus.
42:05
And so we're quite bullish on it.
42:07
We, you know, as I said, we think this is going to unlock very high capabilities over the next couple of years.
42:13
>> How regionpecific are the models, do you think?
42:16
I mean, I was just picturing like the difference between training in LA and training in an old European city feels pretty different uh with a lot higher degree of unpredictability over there.
42:28
>> Well, well, this is what's so unique about the a neural net based approach.
42:32
In a rules-based environment, any difference becomes something you have to tune and calibrate.
42:36
tune and calibrate. So if you if you build a rulesbased environment and you change the vehicle or you change the sensors or you change the environment um like you said like you go from San Francisco to let's say New York City it requires a pretty heavy recalibration localization for the vehicle for the sensor set changes uh in the case of some sensor set changes a lot of it
42:59
would be like a melt and reour here think of it as just like you train your own brain if you learn to drive in San Francisco and let's say you had poor vision and you learned to drive without glasses and I then took you gave you glasses so enhanced your your perception stack and maybe even found a way to bolt a radar under your forehead uh uh and then put you in a different city. You'd
43:21
You'd still be able to drive.
43:23
You'd still you need to pick up some nuances.
43:25
You could you'd have to learn those.
43:27
So there's some training, but you'd actually adapt pretty well.
43:31
And so these the skills and the capabilities generalize far more in a neural net based approach because there's not a it's not a fixed rule set that you're following as part of the codebase.
43:41
Um I think even more importantly though is the model the the model continues to work and all the work that you put into the model continues to work as you change or enhance the perception platform or the compute platform.
43:53
So imagine you know I jokingly said imagine you could put a radar on your forehead.
43:56
Well imagine not just improving your vision.
43:59
So let's say your vision increases by 5 to 10x including low light and bright light performance. You add multiple radars.
44:05
You add a lidar so very very long distance visibility which is great for training your p your your camera perception stack your your equivalent of your eyes.
44:16
But then imagine you can increase your compute by 10x and then suddenly like the patterns you're observing and all these like nuances that are your current brain probably wasn't picking up on will suddenly start to see.
44:28
And so it's really remarkable how uh with this based this this neural net based approach the the platform just continues to get better as you make hardware improvements and none of it's throwaway as it was in the past.
44:42
like as it was in the past.
44:44
You you you increase your camera capability by 10x, the whole thing has to be redone.
44:48
It's a whole new platform.
44:51
>> Let's keep the AI theme going for a second.
44:53
I think you guys are having maybe your next I don't know if it's fair to say chat should be T moment, but you've got the R2 coming out this year, right?
45:00
Is it It's still coming out this year.
45:01
This is the >> Yeah, I was just I'm in Illinois right now.
45:04
Just uh I was just down in the line.
45:06
It's >> So you were just checking it out.
45:06
It's going to be about what, like 45,000.
45:10
This is like the real mass market play. long time coming.
45:12
I'm drawing the analogy of Chetch moment.
45:14
Maybe that's not fair, but like it's a big moment for you guys.
45:18
Um and I'm wondering um how that's going.
45:23
>> Yeah, it's it's the maybe the most important thing we've launched to date.
45:26
it uh takes all the learnings from R1 of which there's many uh you know that and when I say all the learnings all the things we we made mistakes on in terms of ramp or in terms of production system design all the areas we can improve in terms of cost
45:42
structure all of that's embedded into one vehicle and then the price point of it just generates will generate a scale of demand that's much different than what we have with R1 and you know so if you look at like Actually, the closest comparison is Tesla. You know, Tesla
45:57
You know, Tesla prior to Model 3 was not a very high volume company.
46:03
They had Model S and the Model X.
46:05
It wasn't until Model 3 came along that the business really started to thrive in terms of cash flow, you know, and Model 3, Model Y product set.
46:15
And so for us, that's that's R2 and then subsequently our R3, which really drive this significant volume and also help rationalize all these really large fixed cost investments we've made.
46:24
So we've you know very very large engineering team that's developing vertically in house all of our electronics all of our software uh you know we just spent some time talking about all of our self-driving platform uh inclusive of all the in-house perception and and compute like we do our own uh silicon uh that'll launch with R2.
46:42
So we have just a like very heavy uh fixed cost base or R&D cost base and then we have like we're building a big infrastructure for the direct to consumer vertically integrated business.
46:54
We have multiple large distribution centers across the country.
46:58
We have obviously lots of sales locations across country lots of service lots of service infrastructure like parts distribution warehouses.
47:05
So like we don't use dealers uh which means in the front end we have to spend a pretty large sum of money to get all that infrastructure built and then it gets paid for with big structural cost advantages once we get to scale.
47:18
We don't have to pay a third party, you know, 10 to 15% to sell our products for us like we would with if we had dealers.
47:26
>> This the stores you guys have are very nice.
47:28
There was I just went to the one in Pasadena.
47:30
It's they're all very nice.
47:31
You got a nice one in Venice, too. Yeah.
47:34
Somebody drove through the Pasadena one.
47:36
Like a car wrecked through the front glass. Yeah.
47:38
>> Now that's a >> Tesla. >> Yeah.
47:40
[laughter] >> I bet it was a Tesla, right?
47:43
Um >> I don't even know what kind of car it was. >> I love Rivian.
47:48
It's going to kill you to see all these AI rapper startups raising at like billions valuation with like a hundred million ARR and here you are like dealing with like thousands of supply chain parts and have been grinding for I mean I don't know how long how long is how old is revenue as a company?
48:04
>> It's like 16 years old. >> 16 years.
48:05
And I was listening to you on Ben Thompson's pod uh in December saying you've refinanced your house to raise the initial capital. Yeah. Yeah.
48:14
>> So like you have been grinding on this thing.
48:16
you're in like one of the hardest categories on Earth as far as like tech and manufacturing and I I'm curious what you think of when you see all these AI software companies uh and it's just like yeah path to billions of dollars like immediately based on traction but also like a ton of hype and how the space you're in uh is just way more difficult and it seems like it's only gotten more difficult, right?
48:39
Yeah, it's been difficult, but we I it's like uh I think in time I mean we I'm so bullish on what we're building that um you know the way I the way I think about it is the likelihood of success is at an all-time high.
48:59
And it's sort of um you know, I compare that to like day one when it was just me refinancing a house and starting like with $100,000, no employees, no team, no tech, no no anything to go build a car company.
49:12
Like at that point, the likelihood of success was quite low. Um probably near zero.
49:20
And so if I contrast it with today, that the brand has resonated really well.
49:23
the brand has resonated really well. the products are uh really great and R2's just moves the needle meaningfully forward and I think some of the work we're doing in technology particularly as some of the things we already discussed with our in-house software
49:39
platforms and our a lot of the work we're doing around AI and self-driving is like just puts us in a position that I think as the market share stacks you know the market share percentages get completely restacked which I think will happen over the next 10 to 20 years, I think we stand to gain a lot of a lot of that. And if we're successful in that,
50:00
And if we're successful in that, everything takes care of itself.
50:02
Like the value the value of the business will will catch up to that.
50:05
Um, and I think part of it is it's a really hard business. It's hard to understand.
50:09
It's hard to explain making these multi- like very long multi-year investments that don't you don't see the benefit from quite some time.
50:18
You know, it's not something the markets are typically used to to backing. So, but I'm having fun.
50:27
>> Speaking of the uh tech crossover uh that the auto industry is now feeling, we all know the hardest part of uh being in tech or tech adjacent is uh dealing with gadget reviewers who post videos of your products on YouTube.
50:41
As you know, the new products come to market.
50:44
How would you describe the difference between these stalwart car reviewers and the new age gadget influencers who are looking at your car as a big gadget? How are they different?
50:54
>> They tend to they just focus on different things.
50:57
>> This chassis is awesome. >> Yeah.
50:59
I I think like I'll pick a fun one that's like maybe shows the difference in perspective.
51:02
The very classic car reviewers don't like a lot of the future technology.
51:11
like they have there was a big hurdle emotional hurdle of having uh a multi-touchbased interface versus lots of buttons and as you put a like the gadget reviewers can't imagine having something other than a multi-touch and so >> powered by Unreal. Yeah. >> Yeah.
51:30
So it's sort of like what's the quote like Bob Dylan?
51:32
He can make some of the people happy some of the time.
51:34
So like that that's part of the challenge.
51:37
You can't make all the people happy all the time.
51:38
Like part of the challenge of a car is you have if you're developing a vehicle you have uh we've estimated it call it somewhere on the order of 30 to 40 million decisions you have to make as a company around the product and you're going to make lots and lots of decisions that not everyone's going to agree with.
51:58
The goal of the business is to make those decisions really consistently.
51:59
So the product feels, you know, while while there's, you know, four or five thousand brains that are working in parallel to develop something as complex as this, you you need that many.
52:09
Otherwise, it would take you too long.
52:11
You know, if you had one person do it, it' take you tens of thousands of years, uh, which doesn't work.
52:16
So you need to have many people work in parallel.
52:18
And so the goal is to have it feel like one person made every decision.
52:21
Uh, like it's really consistent.
52:23
like the person who designed the trunk was the like the same person who did the door seal which was the same person who did the bezel around the screen which is the same person who did the UI.
52:31
Of course that's not the case.
52:34
And so as you start to like create frameworks for how you make decisions, inevitably there will be people on the chart that like want different things.
52:42
And I I always love the question of like why didn't you do this as if like we didn't think of some of these alternatives like you know and of course like we had to make trade-offs.
52:50
We we and nothing's accidental.
52:52
It's not like uh you know, we just like threw a bunch of parts in a bag and shook it and out came a car.
52:59
Like we like we made a whole series of very intentional decisions, not every one of which everyone will agree with.
53:05
>> That's why it's fun to be a gadget reviewer is you get to pretend that you're smarter than all the CEOs.
53:09
Well, I think part of it is for me, I just got had to get comfortable with the fact that as long as many people like most of the decisions we make and the products feel really thoughtfully done, I think we're in a good in a good place.
53:24
I think where you have a challenge is if very few people like most of the decisions you've make, which there have been products and cars that have had that where that like the the audience that actually likes what was conceived is so narrow.
53:35
Um, and so that that that's part of the challenge.
53:39
I think sometimes reviewers may more often than not fall into the category if you made everything that they wanted, it'd be a very narrow subset of customers that would buy it.
53:49
>> Oh, that's the classic power user dilemma, right?
53:51
I mean, is there anything more specific that's kind of been that's been uh contentious with those folks?
53:58
>> Oh, why can't I sideloadad my N64 emulator onto your multimedia interface?
54:04
One that I would say we made a decision on and we were really intentional on it and I might you it might be one if I were to do it again I might revisit it.
54:13
It's interesting is we have for the flagship product we have an R1S which is a seven passenger SUV and has a sister product the R1T which is a five passenger truck.
54:21
And we did a lot of work studying garages.
54:28
And the reason it's important to study garages is because if you have an electric car, you're you're going to likely want to be able to park it in the garage so you can easily charge it.
54:35
And to do that, the vehicle has to be under a certain length.
54:40
And so you have a choice as to where do you like where do you put in that length if you want to fit in 90% of the garages in the United States.
54:48
And so we developed a bed a tailgate on the bed that has a gooseeneck hinge so it doesn't hinge down like a normal tailgate. It hinges out.
54:58
So when the tailgate is open it's longer than a than your average truck which is great for holding like like a dirt bike or a motorcycle.
55:05
But when the tailgate's up, the bed is four and a half ft long rather than more typically the five feet. So the bed is shorter.
55:14
And a lot of folks were like, "Why didn't you put a five foot bed on it?"
55:16
And we said, "Well, like drive through your neighborhood and tell me who owns a truck."
55:20
And and they're like, "What do you mean?"
55:21
I'm like, "You can know who owns a truck because the trucks don't fit in the garage.
55:23
They're all in the driveway because the beds are long."
55:24
And so like we were very like logical to say, "We want the truck to fit in your garage."
55:30
So we made the bed, you know, with the gooseseneck hinge.
55:32
And I say all that and it's like I could do all that like intellectual argument as to why it's easier if it could park in the garage.
55:40
You could have the charger in your garage.
55:41
You don't have to put it out on the outside of your house and all these things, but at the end of the day, it's still like too much explanation.
55:45
It probably should just made the 5 foot bed and accepted that the cars would fit in less garages.
55:52
But as someone who parks my R1T in the garage and it wouldn't fit if we had a 5ft bed, I sort of like it still.
55:56
So, it's one of those >> tell your tell your social team the 50 top trade-offs with the R1S or whatever you want to do.
56:03
I mean, for a certain audience, there's like literally nothing more fun than this stuff, you know, with I mean, with the complexity of the car, I mean, you're like doing the James Cameron thing out here, like somehow trying to like have a single vision with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people.
56:18
And yeah, I mean, of course, it's a bummer when the truck looks a little bit funny to some people because of that tradeoff.
56:25
But I do think there's a world where those decisions actually improve the brand because they thought show how thoughtful you really are.
56:32
I mean, it goes back to, you know, the Steve Jobs antennate with the iPhone.
56:38
Just hold it differently or whatever.
56:39
But like a lot of people are like, "Fuck yeah. [ __ ] yeah.
56:40
I'll hold it differently." >> Yeah.
56:43
It's not like we just made the truck bed a random length and we're like, "Oh, darn it.
56:46
Everybody else was doing 5 foot, we did four and a half.
56:48
I mean, [laughter] seemed cool. Yeah. >> R. J.
56:53
, you brought up charging and I'm glad you did.
56:55
So, your team actually hooked me up with an R1 for the weekend.
56:59
I want to say it was like a year and a half ago and I took it to Joshua Tree and it was one of the most stressful trips of my life because you all had not >> you all had not built the charging center in Joshua Tree. >> Yeah.
57:09
>> It was under construction.
57:10
>> Sounds like user error to me, Alex. >> Uh, no.
57:12
Like it was just like frantically trying to find a power source at our friend's house that could like charge it with enough mileage to get to the next charging point on the way.
57:23
>> The worst I've been in that spot myself.
57:24
>> Oh my god, it was it was horrible.
57:24
But like the thing was fun as hell to drive and we took it off-roading and all of that.
57:30
Like that experience was amazing.
57:32
But the charging experience like almost completely ruined EVs for certainly my wife.
57:37
Um, for me, like I understand like the infrastructure is getting built out, but I actually have this theory about EV adoption that one of the big gating factors is just how shitty all this charging infrastructure is.
57:47
And also the fact that like landlords of rental properties are not incentivized by the federal government or anyone.
57:54
There's no like tax credits to install EV chargers.
57:59
And like, you know, I would, you know, we're renting our house right now.
58:01
like I would probably have an EV if my landlord would just put it in, but I'm not going to pay to put it in, right?
58:08
And I think a lot of people, especially with like the shift in millennials not owning homes and how property ownership is changing, like people are really locked out of this category because of the charging infrastructure.
58:19
>> And I'm wondering like is there anything you all are doing specifically on that besides your own, you know, charging stations?
58:24
Do you think anything will change like structurally to fix this?
58:28
Because to me, this is like this is the thing that is holding it back for me personally.
58:31
Well, you articulated that well.
58:33
Um, and I I agree with everything you just said.
58:37
It's uh this is a really important thing to solve.
58:40
And so because we so uh we so emphatically agree with you, we have created our own charging infrastructure.
58:48
So we call it the Rivian Adventure Network.
58:50
Unfortunately, this is a area where there's been like wild underinvestment in charging infrastructure.
58:58
So much so that like our network is one of the largest in the United States.
59:02
Tesla's is by far the largest.
59:05
Uh we're about somewhere between four and 5% the size of Tesla's network.
59:09
And outside of Rivian and Tesla, the all the other networks have frustratingly low up times.
59:14
Meaning if you go to the charger, the likelihood that it works can be as low as like 50%. Which is a real pain.
59:22
Imagine you're on a road trip and you found it on the map and you stop there and it doesn't work.
59:27
So we have a few things we've done to address it.
59:28
So, one is we're building our own network and that's growing as we speak.
59:31
And your Joshua Tree trip this year would be amazing because we have this like probably our best charging station is in Joshua Tree. >> It looks nice.
59:38
I just drove past it a few months ago.
59:40
Looks >> Yeah, it's really cool.
59:40
It's a very very nice setup. Um, so that's one.
59:42
The second is we adopted Tesla's uh Tesla's charging standard became a they actually made it standard and open and we've adopted that.
59:56
So you can now use Tesla chargers which is a big network.
1:00:01
And then the third thing we did which is maybe less obvious but informs the first thing is we bought a company u uh called a better route planner.
1:00:09
Uh the the acronym is often used to describe it ABRP a better out planner.
1:00:13
And it's one of the most popular independent apps for finding chargers.
1:00:19
And so when you use it, you can see like like the reason we bought it is not just because we think it's a nice app, which it is.
1:00:26
It's great, but it gives us really good visibility to where all the worst charging situations are.
1:00:33
And so think of it as like we can identify the charging deserts, so to speak.
1:00:38
Joshua Tree was one of those before.
1:00:40
We've we've now fixed it with our our node.
1:00:43
And so it allows us to really prioritize how we deploy capital to address these charging gaps that exist within, you know, within all the, you know, driving places you'd want to go, all the places you'd want to drive to.
1:00:57
And so, um, that's been great.
1:01:01
And so, not only that, we have a charging score.
1:01:03
So, we like rate, uh, A, B, C, D, F, like how good is a charger. And you can sort by it.
1:01:10
So you can say like I don't want to go to a B or lower charger because I don't want to deal with the fact that it might not work when I get there.
1:01:18
Uh and so that's some of the things we've done.
1:01:21
Then when it comes to home charging, of course, as you point out, uh depends on this depends on the like where.
1:01:28
But in many areas, uh we're starting to see building codes require uh you know uh building owners to put charging in.
1:01:39
You know, this isn't DC charging.
1:01:42
This is like the super fast charging, but still level two charging.
1:01:45
So like overnight charging is fine.
1:01:45
And I think in the in the next couple of years, this will start to shift pretty dramatically.
1:01:50
dramatically. real charging will go to something that was a bit of a pain point to through the combination of our network which is growing Tesla's network which is already big hopefully a few of these other independent networks growing that charging becomes ubiquitous
1:02:07
DC fast charging for road trips home charging apartment building charge char charging office charging becomes very accessible and it just sort of disappears and so like as as it is in my life now like for me I like I don't even think about it because there's I have a charger at the house. Um I have an
1:02:22
Um I have an apartment that has a charger.
1:02:26
>> Well, you're the CEO of Rivian.
1:02:26
I would hope you don't have to.
1:02:28
>> But like even like if I'm on a road trip like like it's only like the truly obscure places that are not covered and and even those most of them are getting covered or have been covered.
1:02:35
Rivian Adventure Network's doing a lot of that.
1:02:39
So I I think most of those charging deserts are sort of solved.
1:02:40
So it's it is a lot different than it was a year and a half ago.
1:02:44
So you should ask us to loan a vehicle gun and try it again.
1:02:48
Yeah, I should >> get a quad. Ask for a quad.
1:02:49
Uh drive it like you stole it and uh enjoy it in in Joshua Tree.
1:02:57
>> I'm so fascinated by this cuz usually in tech the things that users do once a year don't like kind of make or break the product or their perception of it in their mind.
1:03:08
I mean, I have a feeling that most people wouldn't actually encounter a range anxiety issue very often. Is that is that true? >> It's very rare. Yeah, we have the data. Uh >> right.
1:03:21
What what is it >> extremely rare that we have a customer actually run out of charge?
1:03:26
>> I mean that's got to be like pretty frustrating.
1:03:28
I mean to like have that be I mean is that still one of the top barriers with getting an EV?
1:03:34
>> I think it's still it's it's more of a consideration than than I would think.
1:03:37
Um what I always say to people is like try it like like we have a a few ways that people can loan car like uh test drive cars.
1:03:44
We have like an overnight test program.
1:03:46
Big part of that is just like experience how easy it is to charge.
1:03:50
I but I I think in time that that starts to fade.
1:03:52
Uh but as Alex said, you have one bad experience, it does it does cement an idea into your head and it's like I don't want to deal with that.
1:04:02
And the stress of like being stranded is high, especially if you have kids um or you're hungry or you know those kinds of things. >> Well R. J.
1:04:11
I will ask your team for a quad and I will drive it like I saw it. I know you got to go.
1:04:15
We appreciate you being uh on the show and taking the time with us. Good to see you again.
1:04:20
>> And and Alex, we'll make sure it's black on black.
1:04:23
>> Oh, it's got to be murdered out.
1:04:23
Yeah, it's got to match the Volkswagen.
1:04:26
>> Matt Black, everything dark. All right, we'll see. Bye. Bye.
1:04:35
>> And that's it for this week's show.
1:04:35
I'm realizing now I should have said in the intro, buckle your seat belts, ladies and gentlemen, [laughter] because that still applies to EVs >> for now. >> Sorry.
1:04:48
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1:04:55
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1:04:58
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1:05:00
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