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and they're killing it they' become massively popular just take a look see what portfolio they would create for you and you can use that information however you want wealthfront.com hello my friends you muscular little Oompa Loompas welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show my name is Tim
Ferris and my job is to deconstruct worldclass performers people who are the best of what they do and to tease out the habits routines findings that you can apply to own life whether they are people like Arnold Schwarzenegger chess prodigies like Josh waitzkin directors
like John favro or Robert Rodriguez and hedge fund managers military strategists everyone in between today we have a researcher Dr brune Brown and you can say hi to her on Twitter brne Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston Graduate School of Social Work
and her 2010 tedex talk the power of vulnerability has has more than 20 million views it is one of the top five most viewed TED talks in the world which is very hard to pull off she has other talks with millions and millions of views so once you're lucky twice you're good she is very good she has spent the
past 13 years studying vulnerability courage worthiness and shame all of my favorites brne is the author of two number one New York Times bestsellers daring greatly in the gifts of imperfection her brand new book is titled Rising strong and in it she writes if we are brave enough often
enough we will fall this is a book about what it takes to get back up and she interviews some very interesting folks top performers in the corporate world startup World military world and gathers data to support the recommendations and conclusions in these books so I have a
copy of rising strong and encourage you to check it out she's also the founder and CEO for the daring way which is an organization that brings her work to organization School communities and families and without further Ado I want to let you enjoy this wide- ranging conversation that touches on some
sensitive topics you might say with Dr beray Brown bne welcome to the show thank you I'm excited to talk to you and my fans are excited to hear all of your wisdom and dig into your research uh and I suppose we could we could start with some context for those people who are
not familiar with your work when you are asked the question what do you do how do you answer that it really I actually have two answers I I one if I want to keep talking and one if I don't so if I don't want to keep talking I usually will just say I'm a shame researcher and that scares
people and then they usually go on they usually say so what do you think about the Texans this season or something um and then if I'm in a normal conversation I'll say that I study vulnerability and courage shame and worthiness and that's that's kind of terrible isn't it that I do that I I
don't think it's terrible I think that you can do kind of a reverse George castanza when you don't want to talk to someone if you're trapped on a plane or something so so instead of saying you know picking the most interesting thing to get them to admire you and say you're
an architect you can be like oh yes no I'm a you know you could bring up something extremely awkward right like you know I I research uh you know off color sex trafficking or something and then depending on who you're sitting next to suppose it could be a good character check right it's a totally
it's a total character check because if they launch in after they hear I study shame um then that kind of bites me on the ass a little bit but it works pretty well you're like you're not following the script pal you're you're off script right uh so so speaking of script and uh
I I am not the only one who's been impressed with your presenting ability but seems like one of the ways that you really hit the mainstream map was through Ted and uh specifically I guess it would have been the the power of vulnerability although that that has more than 21 million views now and uh
some of your other presentations have more than 5 million views so certainly uh you know once you're lucky twice you're good you are good at this uh could you give people an overview of the components that make a hit speech or Ted talk because you're you're clearly good at it it's not a one
hit wonder how did the power of vulnerability come to be how did you decide on the on that on the content and rehearse it and so on just the the the Genesis story I think would be very interesting um yeah I'd love to share it because it's been a a huge learning for
me so the tedex talk was kind of a combination of an accident and an experiment um the Cur ERS of tedex Houston asked me to open their first event um and they called and they were really excited and I asked I said sure I'd love to I was really excited um and they Javier fidu is the curator and I
said what do you want me to talk about and you know when you study things like shame and vulnerability people can get very prescriptive about what they want you to say and what you they don't want you to say um it really has no bearing actually on what I do say but they like to think
in the beginning that they're going to control some of that and so I said you know do you have any thoughts and his answer was be awesome have fun and the day before the yeah which is you you would think it's liberating and but it's also kind of terrifying right and so the
blessing and the curse of no constraints exactly exactly and so I was on a flight home the night before a long flight with my husband and kids and I looked at Steve and I was like I think I'm going to experiment tomorrow my husband looked at me and he said that sounds like a terrible idea
and I said yeah and I said no I think I'm going to actually be really vulnerable while I'm talking about vulnerability and he said you know again not sure that's a great idea so I went to the Ted event and I experimented I really kind of put myself out there I talked about my own
breakdown Spiritual Awakening I talked about having to go to therapy and how much I really hated that and I kind of thought it was but like I had to do it um and I really put myself out there and I remember driving home and thinking I will never do that again I mean I literally had I literally
had what I thought was one of the worst vulnerability hangovers of my career and I was so grateful you know I have to tell you to I was so grateful that there were only 500 people there and that it was recorded at University of Houston where I've taught for 20 years so most people kind of like oh
yeah that's Berne I don't have any memory of that being recorded and I and I'm pretty I'm pretty sure maybe the universe just aligned and thought you know let's not let her know that this is being recorded So when it came out on the tedex you know on the tedex site I was pretty mortified and
Steve you know Steve's like no one's going to watch it don't worry and then several months later Chris Anderson called and said hey we're we don't usually put the tedex talks up but we really we love your talk and we want to put it up and I I I think the conversation went like this which is
an interesting form of leadership I think I said no I'm flattered but no thank you and he said I think December 23rd will be great and then that was that and so it went up on December 23rd and again Steve was like don't worry bernee I don't think that me people are
not going to see it and it went like one two 1 million 1 million one three million and I was like oh and so if I look back so my learning my takeaway from that experience was this if I'm not a little bit nauseous when I'm done I probably did not show up like I should have shown up that's great that's that's that's
that echo's advice from I believe it's Neil in a commencement speech make good art where he talked about you know when you feel like you're walking down the street naked and extremely uncomfortable maybe you're starting to get it right I'm par I'm paraphrasing of course but that's a
that's a really good uh that's a really good point how did you I mean your delivery was so spoton how did you rehearse uh or did you I mean maybe you're just uh maybe that is a language that you're naturally fluent in presentation that is but uh how did you prep for it I don't rehearse at all in
fact rehearsing is really so when I rehearse in the traditional way we think about rehearsing it's about what I'm GNA say and when I'm G to say it and how I'm going to say it and so if I do that what ends up happening and I've tried it a couple times I get so like prefrontal cortex I
get so wrapped up and oh wasn't I supposed to pause here and wasn't I supposed to do this there that I am not I'm not connecting and so for me it is use images as the arc understand what image every image means to me and what I want to wrap around that image and then
require that the house lights are on so I can see people's faces that's a good rule that's a really good rule yeah so that thing where there you know and I I rarely rarely allow any of my presentations to be videotaped um very very rarely because one if they're taping you you have to be
super hot under the lights and the audience has to be dark and then it's performance not connection for me um and then secondly I don't feel like it's anyone's business what happens between me and an audience at any given moment I mean I just really feel like
that's an that's a moment yeah and I think that comes it I mean I'm I'm speculating here but from a lot of experience teaching right being in in front of students as opposed to viewing yourself as being in front of an audience uh which which I think enables a very different relationship with the
people you're trying to communicate to or communicate with and to to provide perhaps a little bit of connective tissue for people who are curious about your research um you mentioned vulnerability you mentioned shame uh how should we Define these terms just for the purposes of this conversation
and so people can understand and how did you research them you know I think the best place to start when we're talking about kind of what words mean at least the way I use them in my work is to really start with vulnerability um because I think if you can get your head and heart wrapped
about around vulnerability the others make a lot more sense um so to me I don't know how you were raised and how the listeners were raised but I was raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness um that you wake up in the morning you armor up you go out into the day you kick some ass um you don't let
people see your emotions you mitigate uncertainty and risk as much as you can and that's the way you live and so from the very earliest stages of my research you know 13 years ago that is not how vulnerability emerged in the data um vulnerability emerged as not weakness but probably our
best measure of Courage so when we asked people you know what is vulnerability they would say things like it's the first date after my divorce it's trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage it's sitting with my wife who has stage four breast cancer and making plans for our three-year-old
and 5-year-old it's starting my own business it's taking my business public it's getting fired it's firing someone um it's getting promoted it's missing the promotion and so it ca became very clear to me early on that the simplest definition for vulnerability is
really uncertainty risk and emotional exposure vulnerability is about the willingness to show up and be seen when you have zero control over the outcome and I think if you ask people to close their eyes and think about the last time they saw someone doing something truly
Brave it is very easy to see how vulnerability underpins all acts of courage sure and yeah I mean I just think it's about really it's about putting yourself out there and which is is increasingly difficult to do in this very hypercritical unforgiving kind of media culture and so vulnerability is showing
up and being seen um courage to me you know I love the word courage because the root of the word is C and the Latin for C is heart and when courage first came into the English language the original definition was to tell the story of you are of who you are with your whole heart that was
an act of Courage um so to me courage is really about choosing what's right over what's easy practicing your values not just professing them and choosing to be brave over being comfortable and these I I I love this type of um contextual got Prelude it's not a Prelude but it's U defining
because I think it's so important for any important conversation and certainly I think for most conversations to make sure that the people in the conversation are talking about the same thing right oh it's it's the key to everything right right and uh that starts with defining
very very and I've noticed for instance even in my own relationships something as seemingly clear as honesty I want you to be honest say in Intimate Relationships are actually can can have uh no pun or no uh illusion intended but you know 50 Shades of Gray right I mean there are it can mean something very
different you know is is omission a lie or are we talking about a misrepresentation of truth right and uh it's it's it's really critical and I like your description because you know courage I remember thinking when you were when you were uh walking us through this uh cust deato who was Mike Tyson's
primary trainer who who who uh who brought him to the Pinnacle of his success uh would tell mikee who was terrified before going into the ring uh in the dressing room and so on that you know the hero and the coward feel the same thing it's how the how it's How the hero
responds that makes him different and you know the the you can't be courageous unless you are exposing yourself to a perceived risk which by definition makes you vulnerable even if you're thinking about it in the very literal kind of physical sense so the the uh I'd love to
say way to to shame because I was reading uh in a one of uh your alumni Publications and uh you can correct this certainly if it's not accurate but a quote of yours came up that I thought was was really insightful and worth exploring a bit and it said shame hates to have words wrapped around it if we
talk about it it loses its grip on us and I was hoping maybe we could you could elaborate on that that and uh help us to to then understand shame yeah and I think that's that quote um is so powerful because it's so true like I often when I talk about shame I often like to personify it and say you
know shame is a very formidable foe you know shame is this intensely painful belief or experience that something is wrong with us that we are flawed and that we are Unworthy of love and belonging and we all know it everyone knows that warm wash that comes over you
that makes you feel like you're not enough um we have 50 years of data that really show us in my mind unquestionably that the only people who don't experience shame are people who don't have a capacity for connection who people who don't have a capacity for empathy so if we are capable of having
connection we know shame because shame is the fear that we're not worthy of connection and so the thing about shame that makes it so difficult is it needs three things to thrive in our lives if you take a petri dish and you put shame in a Petri dish and you dous it with secrecy silence and
judgment it grows exponentially it will it will grow into every corner and crevice of Our Lives if you have the same amount of shame in a Petri dish and you douse it with empathy shame can't survive empathy empathy is a very hostile environment for shame and so to
understand shame I think what resonates mostly with people are the two kind of tapes that shame drives the first is you're not enough and you can fill in the blank you're not thin enough pretty enough strong enough powerful enough Rich enough promoted enough love D enough awesome enough you know you're
not enough um and then if we can somehow get a handle on that and say you know like okay I've got you know I have this big presentation and you've got this shame gremling in your ear saying you're not enough you're not smart enough there going to be like a 100 mbas in that room
what do you know about business you're not enough if you can wrestle that thing down the other tape that shame drives is who do you think you are um so it creates this amazing Vice that our selfworth gets caught in um and just squeezes us from both sides and so shame and shame is really visceral I
mean if you if you just say the word to people people can feel it no definitely and you mentioned you know fear of disconnection I mean I wrote down when I was doing some research before this call you know being shunned question mark and uh I I'd love to ask ask you because a question that
came from some of my listeners was you know uh what is the evolutionary need of shame or or why did that develop in human beings and it seems to me like shame can serve a useful purpose right if you are ashamed of the fact that you think about molesting a child that seem
that serves a societal function right um so I would argue no you would argue no I would argue no absolutely not okay all right well I'd love for you to expand on that because uh I that's that's uh that's an interesting Viewpoint so could you could you expand on that
so shame I think if you look at shame from an evolutionary biological perspective um I think it did absolutely serve a function so Tim you lead the dinosaur back to the cave it eats my entire family and my whole clan this is the second time you've done that so we are literally going to shun you from our
Collective which means you'll be alone which means death right and so because you're dangerous uh just not not unlike if we see even in the animal world today some pack animals if there's a sick animal among them will literally you know approach it as a group and back it off a cliff um for the sake of the the
pack right so so that makes sense as we've evolved um as we've evolved neurobiologically as we've evolved shame becomes a very a profoundly dangerous tool um for people who have the emotional understanding that we have so now what we see is you can change a behavior sometimes especially with
children on a dime with shame but it's like hitting a thumbtack with a 500 pound Anvil you are going to crush that Thumbtack in the process of doing that um so what we see now is we see shame highly highly correlated with addiction depression aggression violence suicide Eating
Disorders very highly correlated um what we see as the inverse is we see guilt and shame and guilt are very different shame isi am a bad person guilt is I did something bad so you go out on Thursday night you get wasted you're so hung over on Friday you sleep through your alarm clock you miss a
really important meeting you get to work late on Friday and your selft talk is Jesus I'm a loser I'm an idiot I'm such a loser that's shame if you get to work on Friday same scenario and your selft talk is dude I cannot believe I did that that was such a lame thing to do that was such a
stupid thing to do the difference is shame is a focus on self guilt is a focus on Behavior people who are who are very guilt prone who say you know what I got a bad grade I'm not a loser but that was a loser idea to not study and go out last night MH they have their relationship with
addiction depression violence suicide bullying is inverse meaning the higher the level of guilt the less likely it is to experience these outcomes so the most dangerous if you look at shame and guilt in a criminal population the most dangerous people have the highest levels of Shame
proness and the lowest levels of guilt proness that makes because guilt is holding does that make sense it makes perfect sense yeah so guilt is holding up something we've done against who we want to be or something we've done thought about doing or failed to do up against our values
who we want to be what we think is right and guilt is the psychological discomfort created by the cognitive dissonance between our behavior and who we want to be and it's healthy and adaptive that makes perfect sense I was uh having a conversation with Josh whiteskin who's been on this podcast as
well he was the basis for searching for Bobby fiser so he was known as a chess Prodigy as a child oh yeah uh he is a tremendous dad a really amazing parent has a as a young boy and he has a very particular parenting style and he always focuses on rewarding effort and not
labeling his son smart so for instance he'll say that was a really good job you worked really hard you did a b and c that resulted in D as opposed to wow you got a great grade you're so smart because then when the kid gets a bad grade it's viewed as this this unsolvable unfixable personal failing
and it seems to correlate to the difference between shame I.E I am flawed I'm a broken toy that cannot be fixed versus guilt like wow I really that up bad on me but next time I'll do something different uh hugely different hug and you know the thing is think about this I
have a 16-year-old and a 10-year-old you know they get caught being dishonest with me and I say you know what you're a liar and you're grounded when you tell somebody they're a liar that's a self-fulfilling prophecy what what if you're if you're a liar if I'm if I ber neighbor out I'm a liar
what option is there for growth or change well that's who I am right not only that but what incentive is there not to lie if you're right branded as such right so when you talk about the person who is thinking about committing violence or assault on a child do I want that person to be more
ashamed no because I have a feeling I mean there's there's you know in your example I guess there's pedophilia which can be an organic real issue but the majority of what we see are people who are so deeply shame based committing horrific crimes so look if I thought shaming people no matter how I
mean I hate to say this but I'll just be honest if I thought shaming people no matter how hurtful and painful it is if I thought that kept people safer I'd be all for it it just doesn't right right well it's you know it's interesting because I've been uh training a a rescue
pup for the last few weeks uh brand new Rescue pup and she was at a kill shelter in South Carolina and suffered a lot of abuse but really got into looking at uh mamallan training and looking at everything from dolphin training to Polar Bear training to dog training and the fact of the matter is you know
negative reinforcement um or punishment Based training doesn't work that well or at least at the very best it's very slow compared to a lot of the positive reinforcement Based training you know whether it's using you know clickers for conditioning and so on because you can only reinforce
a Behavior Uh that that has that has uh that has occurred right and when you I think that the the shame just seems to tie to me u in an interesting way to not understanding uh what is malleable and what is not and i' I'd love to yeah come back to the I am enough uh because in
your your book uh one of your several books but the gift of imperfection one of the best book titles of all time by the way so well done on that uh has been described as the lifelong journey from uh what will people think to I am enough now what I'm so curious to hear about and then I'll I'll leap
forward to Darren greatly uh and I'll just read this this quote uh from which I believe that the title was um was adapted so this is Theodore Roseville it is not the critic who counts not the man who points out how strong how the strong man stumbles or where the the doer of
Deeds could have done them better the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly who at the best knows in the end of the Triumph of high achievement and who at worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly now
what I have had as an internal conflict for a very long time and this was brought to the surface uh most noticeably in the last year and a half through meditation so I I practiced Transcendental Meditation ation in the mornings and have friends who practice Vasa transcendental different types of
meditation and these are type A driven competitive people and we've I've had the conversation repeatedly uh the same conversation with different people about whether that removes a Competitive Edge and the reason being that you decide I am enough you're content therefore you do not have
discontent driving you to achieve big things that are for most of us pretty high on maso's hierarchy of needs right it's like we we have shelter we have food so in reality like in in almost every capacity we have enough we are enough so how do you balance the the the well-being of having
a mindset of I am enough versus the at least with a lot of my my peers and friends in Silicon Valley the kind of discontent that seems to drive so many of those people to accomplish great things so I would go back to your really important Insight from the beginning of
our conversation about defining terms and I'd also go back to kind of the insights that you're learning from doing your training um with your rescue pup which is does to me I am enough I mean a competitive type a person too which prob doesn't come as a surprise the oldest of four you know
very ambitious and you know I'm I'm that person too in many ways um I think the soul or the center of my ability to keep putting myself out there and trying new things even when I fail and I have had some big failures um I think think the soul of my healthy competitiveness and
my ambition is the belief that I am enough um because I'm starting and I think when I don't believe I'm enough I engage in behaviors not to push myself not to grow in stretch and learn not to strive for excellence but to prove to other people what can do um but when I start from a place that
you know what I'm enough I'm imperfect I'm afraid I'm you know super vulnerable but that does not change the fact that I'm also Brave and worthy of love and belonging and when I start from that place um I am completely Unleashed so I think one of the things that's
really important to help kind of Define here because I'm not like you know on the couch binge watching TV 5 days a week um riding nasty ass comments on other people's accomplishments on you know Twitter and Facebook and saying look you I'm enough like that's not what I'm talking about you know right
I'm talking about a belief of selfworth that I am enough not based on what I do what I accomplish what do I you know prove or produce I am just enough and if you start from that that's the healthy Center I think of most most of the most awesome achievements we've seen and I spent a
lot of time in Silicon Valley too and what I can tell you and I know I I would bet I wish we could have a bet right now I would bet you a lot of money that if we listed the names of 10 people which we're not going to do you could tell me which of those folks are operating and 10 10
competitive ambitious just like crazy Fighters out there in the arena and we listed 10 names you could tell me the five who are motivated from a place of being enough but wanting to strive for excellence and learning and the five who are trying to fill a hole in their selfworth and who
are dangerous yeah no for sure and I think I guess the in my mind when I think I'm just imagining this list of 10 people in my my head when I imagine the people who fall into the less self-destructive category uh who have who are operating from a place of I am enough I guess I
would in their cases say that in the if I could hear their sort of subconscious internal Mantra it it would in in my mind it would seem to be and maybe this is the same thing but uh closer to I am I'm good or I'm really good but I can be better uh not I am flawed uh I need to impress everyone
around me to make them validate me uh but the I guess I'm just struggling with the word enough but I I I understand the the point of it um and I think it's this is something that I struggle with right I mean I'm extremely personally I'm very hard on myself I mean I've always sort
of B of the mindset that you know second place's first loser and extremely competitive uh and that is not always been the healthiest thing for uh me in all sorts of different capacities um but I don't the let's let's sort of tackle this from a slightly different angle so the the daring
greatly uh the question that uh I think is raised in that that book among others is you know have you dared greatly today and um please feel free to take this in any direction uh because you obviously know more about your work than I do but how what is a good way to evaluate that
and do you ask yourself this type of question on a daily basis do you have um I'll leave it at that I could I could make this a 12p part question but how does someone determine if they've dared greatly and is how often would you suggest someone kind of check in and ask themselves
that so I think for me daring greatly and you know that that quote from Theodore Roosevelt um I even got teed while you were reading it um you know it was a life Cher for me um it was right after the tedex Houston talk had gone viral I was kind of everywhere on the internet at that time and you know
everyone you know ABC CBS NBC Fox Huffington Post were all writing about this who is this person at the University of Houston with this Ted Talk going viral and as you can imagine um all these online stories had online comments that were of course like yeah and so my husband and my therapist were
like don't read the comments um and so I read all the comments one day and yeah I really sat down and just read them for like an hour and I think you know if you ask if you're listening to like if you're a listener right now you know if you close your eyes and think about we all have the shame triggers we
all have two or three things we have most of us have more that you could overhear somebody you could over hear someone saying about you that would be so painful and so hurtful that you don't know if you could survive it most of us have those things and so for me up until
that point you know I those things really dictated my life I was like look I'm going to engineer this career to kind of be small and safe I'm going to play right under the radar because I am not willing to put myself out there and get criticized like I know is happening
and so the problem with staying small um is it's always served up with resentment and pissed off atness um because we're not using our gifts we're not in our power and there's always a price for that right and so to me when I read that quote you know when I looked at the comments they were
things like of course she you know of course she Embraces imperfection what choice would you have if you look like her I feel sorry for her husband and kids more Botox less research you need to shake loose 10 pounds before you talk about being worthy I mean just like really shitty hurtful
stuff um and then I came on I Came Upon that I mean like the next 30 minutes after reading all that I Came Upon that comment I mean that quote from Theodore Roosevelt and you know in that moment what I realized is you know what I do want to live a brave life I do want to live in the arena
and if you're going to live in the arena the only guarantee is you will get your ass kicked um and the second thing is that daring greatly is being vulnerable so when you ask yourself did I dare greatly today the big question I ask is did I when I had the opportunity did I choose courage over
comfort you know when things went sideways between Steve and I this morning over you know who was going to pack the lunch for my son did I just go into the old pattern of rolling my eyes and walking out of the kitchen or did I choose courage and say I'm sorry I'm feeling really overwhelmed
with the book launch tomorrow and um I'm sorry I really apologize that was hurtful did I choose courage or did I choose comfort and so to me that's the question we ask um about daring greatly and I think you know I think one of the things that you said Tim really when you're talking about your friends
and this idea of being enough one of the things that really turned my life upside down there were four or five things in the research that have taken me a long time to get over and get through and one of them was the difference between healthy striving or striving for excellence and
perfectionism and I've always been perfectionistic about my stuff and what I learned in the research was that perfectionism is very outwardly defined it's dictated by what will people people think and healthy striving is dictated or striving for excellence is internally
motivated and so perfectionism is really I call it the 20 ton shield and I think a lot of when we're talking about those 10 people five of whom work from this place of of holess and the other I think what a lot of times we're talking about is the difference between perfectionism and
striving for excellence and I think perfectionism is this 20 ton Shield that we carry around and it's a defense mechanism classically that just says as if I live perfect love perfect work perfect and accomplish perfectly I can reduce or minimize shame blame criticism and judgment and so we carry this thing
around thinking it's protecting us but what it's really doing is keeping us from being seen and so I think when I ask myself personally have I dared greatly today sometimes for me it is the question of was I enough or am I trying to get everything perfect so that I can somehow
think I'm mitigating criticism and judgment right well I also find and I haven't really thought about it in these terms before but if if you look at say um I think it's Barry Schwarz Paradox of choice where he talks about uh maximizers and I think it's satisficers uh but if I try to correlate
that to my own experience being I think very much a perfectionist and that to uh of my my friends um the the people who are perfectionists um very often are so future focused that the Perfection once achieved is viewed as the trigger that will sort of solve their guilt shame
discontent Etc oh yeah whereas uh the people who are striving for excellence Excellence are better at celebrating the little wins accepting the small defeats and sometimes the large defeats uh and tend to be a bit more present State focused and you mentioned you know vulnerability um and you and U the sort
of components right so you're facing whether it's uncertainty risk and so on um and I've seen it described elsewhere as you know stopping controlling and predicting uh the it seems very much akin to certain tenants and say stoic philosophy uh of which I read a lot uh whether it's
sparus relus or sen Etc and and there are a lot of common threads in Buddhism of course that would um talk about how how fruitless it is and futile it is to try to eliminate suffering uh completely because the we are almost by definition experiencers of suffering right and and
coming to terms with that what uh which which thinkers philosophers or schools of thinking or philosophy most resonate with the insights you found in in the data in your research ah my God e all of the above like I mean it took me it took me from Marcus arelius to Liberation theology
what is Liberation theology oh uh a it's a Catholic um kind of a Catholic theology of social justice um that has it had its stronghold and beginning in Central America but I mean I think it has just one of the things about being a grounded Theory researcher that I love and hate is we don't start with an
existing Theory and then go try to prove or disprove it we build a theory from people's lived experiences and then we do the literature review and see where it fits and where it doesn't fit because the idea between behind grounded theory is if you start with a an existing
Theory you're just kind of paying homage to they would say the theoretical capitalist that came before you and that it's people's lived experiences that really matter and so people often comment in my books they're like how is it that you're quoting I I do quote Marcus AAS I think
in one of my books how are you quoting him and then how are you quoting P who's an American Buddhist nun and then you're quoting Disney a you know Pixar movie from Toy Story and to me I I have no division or and very little tolerance for like the highbrow versus low brow
inspiration um I think if you're paying attention you can find truth and inspiration anywhere and everywhere um and so to me I'm all over the place in the literature and I I think the people who really depend on polarity will hate this but really some very strong common themes across
Christianity Buddhism Judaism you know Islam um Joseph Campbell I mean I think I end up finding myself in some just profound truths from a lot of I mean I was reading something yesterday um in the data and it made me pull out my book by kbron so I think it's roomy Mary Mary Oliver Neil
per the the drummer for Rush like I was something came up and I was like yeah I was like I didn't know if you knew so I had to put it in there but um I was like this is when you Cho when you CH when you don't make a choice when you choose not to decide you still have made a
choice and I think I don't know that anyone says it more eloquently than rush you know I don't know what to say Neil yeah just as a uh side note if people want to see just a beast of a drummer then you can you can search on YouTube for some videos of this guy oh my goodness what a just monster on the kit
but and a poet you know so I find my inspiration kind of everywhere and uh let's let's talk about misinterpretations of vulnerability for a second and I think maybe I'm getting a little I'm probably projecting my own prejudices here but um is it vulnerability there I think there are
some people who misinterpret being vulnerable and the benefits derived from being vulnerable with uh incessant oversharing of emotions or inner dialogue or doubt um what would you say to those what would you say to those people maybe my diagnosis is off off base but there's
some there are a lot of people who just kind of pour out every concern worry fault mistake uh and and um okay it with the the label of vulnerability um so I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that word Sal that I just dropped on you I love it and I'm tracking 100% because I yeah it's you know there's a
very simple formula in my head V vulnerability minus boundaries is not vulnerability it can be desperation it can be oversharing it can be manipulation it can be a lot of different things but it's not vulnerability um we always have to hold awareness of boundaries and roles in our
minds around vulnerability we share with people who've earned the right to hear our story and we stay mindful all the time of the role we're in so one of the great examples I can give you is I'm with 50 CEOs from Silicon Valley and we've spent a long weekend together
and toward the end of maybe the first day one of them says I came here thinking that I would never you know believe in vulnerability or accept it but I am 100% on board so I want to make sure I understand that I should stand up in front of you know my investors my VCS you know and say look I
am in over my head we are bleeding money and I do not know what to to do next right and I said you know only if you don't want another round of funding should you do that I mean no that's that's super that's not appropriate but let me you know let me ask you this if you had you know if you had I don't know
$50,000 invested with this leader wouldn't you be praying to God that he's sitting across from someone saying that sure definitely 100% right I don't care if it's whether it's his therapist a mentor an advisor because what the what the alternative is if he's really drowning
in over his head and bleeding money and doesn't know what he's doing is to just keep grinding harder and harder on the same things he's doing and not ask for help right right totally agree yeah and so when people say you know live tweeting your bikini wax that is not
vulnerability I'm sorry about that it was only once yeah I mean if so if you could hold back a little bit to him we'd really all appreciate it um no are sharing intimate details of your children's reaction to your impending divorce on Facebook that is not vulnerability vulnerability is the birthplace of
intimacy trust connection creativity Innovation for leaders it's the birthplace of trusted influence um but it's not permission to overshare right right well I mean the I thought the investor example was great because the if a if a CEO or founder gets up and says it provides the confession that you
gave us an example in front of a room that will almost inevitably respond by say yanking um funding it's not a it's not a constructive use of that confession if that makes sense um and it's I live in San Francisco most of the time and it's it's this this sort of dis this uh misinterpretation of
vulnerability as oversharing is very common among the kind of Burning Man um spiritual atheist sect uh and it's I think it's massively problematic I think it creates U it's it appears to create many more problems than it solves and um let me use that as a segue so the
the opposite I was interviewing a a well-known strength coach named paval Tulin who's originally from I think the r the Ukraine um in any case former Soviet Union and I one of the questions I asked him on the podcast was what uh in your what do you write in your personal Journal that you don't often
talk about with other people and his answer was well Tim that a very personal question and he proceeded to tell me that and he proceeded to tell me that you know oversharing is is a big problem in the United States and I was like well you know that's actually I feel like
that's a fair response and so I wanted to ask you a question that's based on um input from a number of listeners of this podcast um and the here's the lead and I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts so there's lots of chatter about over feminization of boys um how do you how do you um how do you have
vulnerability coexist with strong masculine virtues traits and I'm paraphrasing here and I'll just give another sort of contextual example that uh may or may or may not um be interesting to comment on so there's an expression in some military training um that is suffer in silence and the
idea is If You're Going Through Hell Week for the Navy SEALS or something like that and you're carrying logs around and laying down in the freezing cold water climbing under barbed wire doing all these just nausea and fear inducing things if you complain like my
foot hurts this that and the other thing it will trigger more suffering in the people around you um which I happen to agree with in that context um so that's a lot at once but but um what what is your thinking on the uh the the so-called sort of over feminization of boys and masculine virtues traits versus
vulnerability I mean how how do they coexist um and maybe that's not even the right question it's a really good question and I I you know I work a lot with special forces um and with the military and and with vets yeah may I add one more thing just yeah just so that I'm I'm not I
people don't think I'm representing only the male side of this yeah a lot of my female friends um complain to me that in a lot of urban centers in the US San Francisco Etc they can only find guys to date and they're looking for men to date so it's not just this is this is a
concern not just from the male side it seems to be coming from both sides so sorry to interrupt but I just wanted to throw no I think it's really important so I have so much to say on it that I'm overwhelmed I don't even know where to start so I'm gonna just try to I am I'm just like busting a gut over here um
okay so these binaries of you know tough and tender masculine feminine you know I think we have to be really careful um about this because if we when we start to talk about vul let to talk about in in the context of my work you got me really I'm like okay um if you talk about
vulnerability and vulnerability to me is courage and so when I when I hear women talk about their inability to be with a vulnerable man it's it makes tons of sense to me because do you know you know I wish I could say you know that the number one perpetrator of Shame with men were all
those you know shitty dads and terrible coaches and those buddies but the number one perpetrator of Shame with men is women um and so I often say show me a woman who can sit with a man man in real fear and vulnerability I will show you a woman who's done her own work around
vulnerability and doesn't derive her power or status from that man you show me a man who can sit with a woman who's in real fear and vulnerability and I'll show you a man who's done his own work around vulnerability and doesn't derive his power from being Oz the all knowing and all fixing because what men have
tendency to do when we're feeling vulnerable our afraid is try to fix it because it's how we're socialized and so I don't think when you talk about how we're raising boys today here's what I can tell you from 150,000 pieces of data looking back um from what I've learned from
men The Men Who were raised to be open and feeling and tender and loving and given no skills and no information on how to navigate boy culture and male culture do not do well right the boys who were raised on how to navigate male culture King of the Hill and had no tools on how to be open
and vulnerable and emotionally available do worse but they also don't do well so it's about we need to stop with these false separations between tough and tender you know tough and tender can coexist um and to me that's kind of the that's kind of the equation for
badassery um and it can also exist in women like you know grit and Grace tough and tender afraid and brave you know this idea that we're either courageous or we're chicken is just not true because most of us are afraid and brave at the exact same moment all day long and so to take courage and
vulnerability to take to to not teach that to our kids boys or girls is not teaching them how to be emotionally available or Tender either right and so I think what concerns me is about the need to drive a stake through the middle of these things um and I think that's what's really
important I mean to be both yeah no I and I I agree with you I mean I think that they're not mutually exclusive there's no need for a false dichotomy it's um I think a lot of it comes back to sort of choosing the appropriate environment for express that vulnerability if that makes sense it's
uh it's a toughy it seems it seems tough I mean I U because you find men who have the armor plating on and can never take it off that for what it's worth the guys I've met who are operating at the highest level in say Special Forces do not have that problem um they are they
they tend not to suffer from a lot of PTSD for instance and they are very empathetic and emotionally attuned for the at least in the the subset of folks that I've met um but they've they've been subjected to just insane amounts of abuse and conditioning to for mental and physical toughness but at the same time
I see them playing with their kids or with their wives and they're extremely present so that's but that's it's a tough needle to thread um as so come so speaking of just the challenges that people have with say vulnerability what are some daily practices or exercises that people can um
contest to help them develop more vulnerability less shame Etc you know I think it's interesting that you talk about you know daily practices because I think vulnerability is a daily practice and for a lot of us you know at least for me when it when it was new it was about trying on new ways
of being and kind of testing it out one of the things that emerg from the data is this this idea of trust and the relationship between trust and vulnerability and people always ask me you gain trust first and then You're vulnerable with people um but the truth is you can't really earn trust over time
with people without being somewhat vulnerable so it's a little bit of a back and forth it's a little bit of um sharing things that are maybe not super deeply personal but are meaningful to you and how that feels to share them and be open one thing that you said that
I've never thought about until this interview but it was such a remarkable um Insight from you that I want to go back to when you talk about daily practice is when you were talking about perfectionism being future focused um and also kind of presenting some struggles about staying in the
now I think that's why and again I'm just putting this Insight together your Insight I think that's why a lot of people who are that super uber competitive um High strong overachieving don't get the same results in their personal lives with their partners and their children as they do
in their professional kind of Endeavors or their recreational Endeavors because our personal relationships with the people we love those Intimate Relationships require a presence a focus on now that a lot of times professional success does not depend on that as much very
true yeah very true you can fly fast and if you know if you're in a little Cessna two seater you gota you know you're in the here and now and you got to pay attention to every bump and every gauge and pay you know but if you're in a jet you can't afford to be thinking about now you have to be thinking about 5
minutes from now um and so I thought it was a really remarkable Insight on your part because when I do think about those 10 friends in Silicon Valley or I think about my own life even I think what the research has changed most is that I think it it has had a huge impact on my professional
success but more than anything when I get home um I walk into a marriage and a relationship with kids that is fun they are fundamentally different than they were before I became okay with vulnerability and okay with less than perfect what what is the first 60 to 90
days of uh 60 to 90 days 60 to 90 minutes of your day look like your morning routines or rituals outside of book launch times and things like that let's just assume that you have control of your your optimal day what what is the first uh what do your morning rituals look like what does your your
first 60 to 90 minutes look like I wake up up um time do you 6:30ish um I wake up I um do a lot of deep breathing to Stave off an absolute desperate need for a hit of data um from my phone or from my computer so I try very hard not to check email or text because I don't I sleep
with my phone downstairs I don't sleep with any kind of computer next to me um and then you know it's really super normal I wake up kids I make breakfast I pack lunches I go through the calendar with the day I zip up backpacks I drive carpool um I usually go from carpool to
swim I'm a swimmer that's competitive swimmer so I like to swim and I swim and walk um and swimming is kind of the trifecta for me it's meditation exercise and therapy right and then I usually start my day my work day and what time what time what time do you finish swimming and how long is the swim
session um if I run my my best case scenario is I run and swim and so I don't swim fast enough anymore and I don't swim time time swim anymore like you know 50s on every 20 or anything like I used to so it's more it's it's not as cardio as it used to be um so I like to run on the treadmill for 30
minutes and then I like to swim for half an hour got it and if I was a bike rider I could be a triathlete but the bik I tried it once and the bike going that fast next to that many people going that fast is really uncomfortable for me yeah I'd imagine it so I'm a I'm a doe
athlete slow do um what what book besides your own have you gifted to other people most where what book do have you often given as a gift oh man I have given so many copies of The Alchemist to people that I should get a little royalty on it yeah that's a great book that's a
great book uh speaking of books so you have a a new book out Rising strong and it seems to me like this completes a Trilogy in a sense it seems like the three books go together very well but could you give people a a description of the latest book and why you wrote it yeah sure um I think they do go
together and I I wasn't intentional on that but I think the gifts is be you daring greatly is be all in and this book is get your ass kicked get up and do it again um this is about just the physics of vulnerability you know if you're brave enough often enough you're going to fall you're going
to experience heartbreak disappointment failure it's going to happen and so going into this research the question for me was what do men and women who experience Falls and get back up and are even more courageous and more tenacious what do they have in common so Rising
strong is about the process that emerged from that question and uh can you describe your your research method how do you find your interviewees um what does the sort of interview format look like uh what do you do with the data afterwards Etc about 70% of my interviews are
individuals and more focused groups in the last data set and so some of them like for example I went to West Point and sat down with I think there were six officers who had all come back from active you know combat Duty um so sometimes I'll do focus groups but the majority of them are individuals a lot
of it is snowball sampling meaning I've interviewed you Tim and I'm like you know what I'm this is really helpful I would love to interview some of the folks that you know in Silicon Valley around perfectionism um would would you mind doing a warm introduction right um and some of them are just kind of calls
like this this book is a lot about the power of story and the stories we tell ourselves so I interviewed Shonda Rimes the showrunner for Scandal and um and so so some of them are just you know it's a lot easier to get people now than it was when I first started and I was like hi
my name is bernee and I would like to talk to you about shame that was was slow going um but but now it's more that you know I and now I just do mostly individual and and focus groups and so then I get the data I I we don't record it I take what we call in the field anthropological
field notes so I capture exact phrases and sentences during our interview um I let participants look at them if they want to when they're done some say yes some say no and then I code what I learned against what I already know that were patterns and saturation in the data
meaning if I am trying to study perfectionism in entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley I'll start interviewing them and I'll know that I've reached saturation when I can predict what the next person's going to say because one of the really tough rules of grounded Theory research are we don't allow for
any outliers and so if I'm almost done and then I sit down with you and you say something and doesn't fit with the theory that I'm developing in my head about what's happening then I have to go back to the drawing board and keep interviewing because every lived experience is real and
matters right so it would be like interviewing a 100 people in Silicon Valor saying they're trying to democratize Pizza ordering democratize uh kitty litter delivery democratized this and then someone said I'm really looking to establish a silo of command and control like a North Korean dictator
for x and you'd be like H all right well then I have to keep going yes but so if that happened then I have to question what I'm hearing I have to question what I'm hearing from the kitty litter and the other folks right and I have to figure out what what do y'all meaning what do
y'all meaningfully say in have in common and uh I mean it seems to me you Rising strong uh is it's a must have not a nice to have right and and I'm not saying that the be yourself dare greatly are nice to haves but if you don't have the resilience to recover from mistakes you're never going
to dare greatly in the first place in in some respect it would seem right so if you if would you recommend what order would you recommend people read your books in I mean understanding that this is the latest of course but what what's sort of uh the ideal sequence you know I think you know they
go together but they don't I mean I think they can each be read independently so I think sometimes it's helpful to pick up the book based on where you are when if you're really struggling with the hustle with hustling for Perfection and hustl and you know proving and perfecting and pretending I
think the gifts is great if you really are you know like the rest of us sick and tired of being afraid and you want to be brave and you want to feel like what does that look like I think daring greatly is a is the place to start and if you find yourself faced down in the
arena and you're thinking God I just got my ass handed to me I think rizing strong would be a good place to start it probably makes sense you know there's a sequence so I think if you're just like wow I'm interested I would start with youring great I mean uh the gifts but I
think I also think for your audience it's probably helpful to know that I've spent the last couple of years probably exclusively working with leaders and entrepreneurs so daring greatly and Rising strong have much more of my research from organizations and from leaders than the gifts does got it no
that is helpful um just a few more questions and then I we're coming up on time so I'll ask just a couple of Rapid Fire questions but the answers don't have to be rapid um and I'm I'm very curious about this one when you think of the word successful who is the first
person who comes to mind for you and why you know what's so weird I don't picture anybody I I picture the word redefine that that is such a that has been such a dangerous word in my research the word successful yeah or success I agree that I don't even use it anymore because what does that mean like
okay so I am the CEO of this company I make a ton of money this is my title this is the influence and power I have I'm on my fourth marriage and no relationship with my adult children right so I I think when I hear the word successful my answer is be clear that your ladder is leaning against the right
building right yeah bad word next question yeah I don't know why I had a strong no no I I agree with you I think happiness is actually similar in God yes that's a that's a scary uh nebulous dangerous term as well totally what $100 or less purchase has most positively
impacted your life in recent memory oh uh Triathlon goggles because I don't know for some reason they're softer um and so then I don't have goggle marks all day oh really I had no idea what what do you know the brand of goggles off hand I don't but they're like the most famous triathalon and
they're really Patty and you look like we all like swam with the speedo vanquisher like little goggles that Mak you were a badass um and the bigger your goggle the goofier you were but now it's time for the goofy goggle for me yeah I really like the aquasphere tamman goggles k a i m an and lared
Hamilton who's this big wave surfer yeah uses uh I will look them up goggles I just put them for those people interested I put them in my latest uh five bullet Friday you can just search my name and five bullet Fridays but um yeah it does seem like the bigger goggles coming back uh if if you could
have one billboard anywhere with anything on it what would it say and where would you put it I would put it in Washington DC and it would [Music] say shut up and listen that's great that's great that that could be put anywhere I I would love to put that on uh on the on the
highway you know Highway 101 and 280 in Silicon Valley too because man oh man are people talking a lot these days and pitching pitching really hard without asking many good questions you know what I wouldn't say shut up cuz my kids would be like oh my God we're not even allowed
to say that word so I would say talk less listen more but I would in my heart I would be saying shut up yeah we could split test it could it could be that could be that could be the hashtag yeah just shut your face um what advice would you give your 30-year-old self it's okay to be afraid you don't have to
be so scary when you're scared huh meaning what put on put on Airs of confidence and overcome yes yes like the 30s are so exhausting it's like the age of yeah and it is it's the age of perfecting proving pretending um and there's some Liberation that can you know for me that
came in my for there was a breakdown of course but followed by some Liberation that came in my 40s so I would just say you know every you know stop hustling right yeah the uh you mentioned the breakdown the the Breakthrough disguised is a breakdown uh what would you say to your 30-year-old
self start meditating and chill the out that's you don't need to you don't need to have a resting pulse of 150 beats per minute to get a lot of big things done but there's similar messages right yeah very similar I think that well I think it's very easy for people and I'm
sure I still do this but to mistake the symptoms of success with the things that cause success they're not the same right the same uh do you have any ask or request for all the people listening uh of course I would highly recommend that they check out your work including Rising strong
the latest book which I will link to in the show notes for everybody but any other ask request or recommendation for everybody listening I would just say keep being part of the conversation about these tougher about these tougher topics about vulnerability about Shame about being brave um just
lean into some discomfort because I think these what's these seemingly impossible problems that we have um around race and homophobia and the environment um and just the lack of Love sometimes are not going to be solved in a comfortable way we can't we've got to you know you have to choose
Comfort or courage you just can't have both so I guess my ask would be more of a a big metaphysical ask that um give vulnerability a shot you know and give discomfort it's due because I think there is a really strong relationship between your willingness he or she who's
willing to be the most uncomfortable is not only the bravest but Rises the fastest totally agree well I think the the only the only way to ensure long-term Comfort is is to have continual short-term discomfort yeah that well this has been a blast ber where can people say hello to you online
where can they find out more about you find you on the the social networks yeah um I am at I'm BR Brown on Twitter and Instagram and Berne Brown on Facebook um we just launched a new project that we're excited about called courage Works um which is bringing all of my teachings to online um for
individuals and leaders and organizations and that's justworks.com um and so I'm at I'm in all those places well I I enjoy your work I appreciate your work and thank you so much for taking the time folks listening you can find links to everything that we discussed show notes Etc at
4hourworkweek decom and just click on podcast all spelled out 4work week.com and please say hello to bernee on the interwebs and join the conversation I'll also have a question of the day in the blog post so that you guys can continue this conversation as bernee suggested
but uh ber thank you so much for making the time it was awesome thank you so much Tim I appreciate it and everybody listening as always thank you for listening and until next day till next day until next time Tim needs more caffeine in Pura and face your discomfort PR practice disc Comfort thanks for
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