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Beautiful. Perfect day.
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There's fish all over the screen.
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We're really headed right into it right now.
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>> So, this really was just an excuse to go fishing, huh? >> Yeah.
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Finding ways to get people on fish is like, dude, that's my happy place.
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This is like a really, really big part of who I am. And I've been Oh. Oh, we're on. We're on. >> Yeah. Got neutral. >> Neutral. >> Okay. >> All right.
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>> Keep that tension on there.
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Just don't let that go cuz it's a barbless. >> Yeah.
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You got a nice fish on there. >> Yeah.
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Dude, you're about to catch a salmon. >> We got him. >> Almost. Right in. >> Wow. Decent size. >> What's up, buddy? >> All right, buddy. >> Nice job. We got it back in.
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Okay, we're going to release this one. >> Great.
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>> So, we're going to be extra careful. >> Yep. >> Back in. >> Yep. I'm going to do it. Ready? >> You can have it. >> Oh, got it. >> All right, buddy. We got any blood? >> Another day.
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>> We're in a good situation here. >> Just like that.
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[Music] What's your story out here?
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How did you even find yourself out here?
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I mean, I'm so excited to be here, but what brought you out here?
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>> Well, I was um I came out here like with my wife for like a date for one of our anniversaries.
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I think it was like maybe our fifth anniversary or something and we were just like, "Wo, this place is like super magical."
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And then um like the next week I rebooked the spot and had the twins come out and that's where we wrote by the way I forgive you like the whole album out here and we called out our wives and we played them the whole album like in the hotel room and they were like crying and they were like this is going to be a really big moment for you guys I think or whatever.
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>> So when this place that came up for sale the three of us went in on it because we were like let's go back there.
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Let's just go back there like every time. Yeah.
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So, I I just come here all the time now and um sitting out here looking at this piece of water which is called the Saratoga Passage and um it made me want to get like my own boat.
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But I've always wanted to have a fishing boat cuz you know fishing is like my whole life.
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But like um you know just seeing all the boats on the water I just couldn't handle it.
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So, uh, when I got this one, they had a spot here at the marina, and this is just my jam now. >> That's so cool. >> I know. I love it.
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My kids always, they're not supposed to, but they always fish for little minnows and like weird rock fish in here.
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They'll get starfish off the side of the dock and play with them and put them back in the water.
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>> Amazing how you sort of travel the whole world searching for something that really is right here.
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And it's so, as we were talking about, so uncomplicated in a lot of ways, you It it really is.
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And like when you live in Seattle your whole life, >> you got like your haunts, you know, you got your places, you got the Cascade Mountains, you know where the mountain pass is, you got the city and the waterfront.
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And you know, if you go a little south, you got like salt water and you can go to Alkai and you know, you know your way around this area and the saltiness of this area.
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But like when you discover the San Juan Islands, it's like it's like realizing there was a whole other world in your backyard that you didn't realize, you know, some Narnia because like >> because you can't get to a lot of those islands without a boat.
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So as soon as I could get there, I was like, >> "What is this place?"
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You know, >> but there's just such a distinct feeling about this part of the world. >> There really is. Yeah.
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>> I feel it every time I'm here.
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And the fairies, like our actual Washington state fairies, that green color, they're so iconic, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
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>> It's It's such a cool place to live and grow up. >> Oh, welcome. >> So, this is it. >> This is it. The cats are fantastic.
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>> Also, that's the font.
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Like, that's the actual font from the album. Yeah.
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So, the color and everything.
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>> He must have laughed when you showed him that. >> Yeah, he he laughed. He >> Did he go? You know what?
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I thought it would be bigger. >> No. No.
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He Listen, let's let's like be clear.
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Alton's never going to get on this boat.
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>> He's never going to get on this boat.
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>> I mean, this is a dinghy on on the Hercules.
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>> Takes him to shore for lunch. >> Yeah, exactly.
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This really This boat should be called the Browner Cowboy.
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So, >> let's pile on here. >> Oh, this is so cool.
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So, you can just crash out in here the whole thing. >> Yeah.
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Like we sleep in here or the girls sleep in that aft bunk there.
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>> So, as a boat owner, you have to work hard to maintain this right? like department.
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>> Well, it these are like pretty easily maintainable because they're just like built out here for this place for this weather.
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They're like meant to under the salt.
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>> It actually does a really good job for me.
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It's pretty self-contained.
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There's no teak or wood to polish or anything like that.
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You know, it's for fishing people.
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>> It's for fishing people.
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>> It is customized for a certain kind of water and a certain kind of thing.
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I mean, all of these navigation controls in here, you know, double uh satellite GPS systems and fish finders, and it's just like really dialed in.
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>> Ly, man, I'm kind of like I'm kind of falling in love with this whole vibe.
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But it's so peaceful and serene, and especially for someone like yourself that has this other very wonderful frequency you exist in, which is every day there's something new to write or some new experience to have and there's a lot of really amazing outfits that you get to wear throughout the year in order to show up in a different way. >> Yeah.
5:22
to sort of come to this must just be so just rewarding and just to reconnect to the you before exactly the we got to know. >> Yeah.
5:32
Well, and you know something it's like my kids always want to talk about that.
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They're like >> they'll take my hair and mess it up and put a hat on me and they're like, "Oh, we want, you know, we want home mama or whatever."
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And I'm like, "Guys, >> both mamas are the real mama."
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Like >> I like putting on sequins and standing on stage and striking like a Shakespearean pose and and belting out a song.
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Like not only do I like it, but it's like molecularly authentically me.
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>> But then I like putting on a backwards baseball cap, getting covered in fish blood, and going out into the ocean, captaining my own boat.
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I like hiking and making trails and driving dirt work equipment and splitting wood.
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That is authentically me.
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And there isn't one that's more or less me.
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And if I give one too much attention, the other one starts to wither. [Music] >> Beautiful. Perfect day.
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[Music] Is there some free wheeling watcher shooting marles in the sky?
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Holding your ears between their fingers.
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watching it burn till the fire. >> I get I get it. I totally get it.
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Apart from the boat that you're on, there's nothing that you can own out here. >> Yeah.
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You're just out here in the water.
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That is such an iconic ferry, you know. >> Amazing. >> Yeah.
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>> So, this all started with a a text that I got.
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It was a lovely morning text where you sent me a note saying, "Hey, I've made some music."
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And I didn't know where you were in terms of writing and making music again for yourself. >> Yeah.
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>> And you were like, I finished an album and I I'm really proud of it and I've got this cool idea and we should go fishing and go out on the boat.
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And it was such a great wonderful way to wake up and get this message.
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A because I knew that there was music and B because I knew we'd get a chance to spend some time talking about that music again. >> Yeah. Like quality time.
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I mean, it's it's a lot to share a record with somebody, you know, and and to and to know it's time to release it and let other people absorb it and feel it.
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When did you know it was done?
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When did you know you you'd finished this new album?
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Well, I knew the album was finished more than I knew that it had started because I had finished um playing the Hollywood Bowl with Joanie and it took up so much of my spiritual space and my mind space and everything was like I felt like really emotionally make or break because I just wanted that to be a pivotal moment for Joanie.
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Like I wanted that to be the moment that Joanie realized the mark that she made on the world and like how positive it was, you know, because I just never really feel felt like she really fully grasped that.
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Even as we did Newport and even as she was given the Kennedy Center honor, even when she won the, you know, the Grammy, like it was they were all little breadcrumbs like leading to Joanie like finally realizing who she was to all of us, you It was an incredibly special and beautifully cured evening.
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What really struck me was um how much care you and in particular Blake seemed to really take in terms of arranging and making sure that she got comfortable within her songs. >> Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah.
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And and we had to feel comfortable with them, which is like not easy.
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They're really complex and the tunings and the textures and then just like the arrangements are surgical and and it had to be exact or or like she was going to notice. >> Yeah. Right.
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>> And every one of those songs she picked all those songs and um we really just wanted to get it right to the point where I think it became our every morning, every night all we were thinking about.
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>> Was there a moment during that process because you were in this whole era of like creative generosity?
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I feel like, you know, you were you were collaborating with artists that you admired.
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You were uh enabling experiences like Journey at the Ball.
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You were figuring out what this Alton Cog project between the two of you was going to be. >> Yeah.
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>> You know, was there even just a small voice inside of you that was like, "Hey, Brandy, like what about you?"
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>> Um, starting to be at that point.
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There was starting to be to the point where I don't know if you know this, but the Elton album was supposed to come out the weekend of the Hollywood Bowl.
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At one point it was going to and we were going to do two nights at the forum >> and I wasn't even going to get a night off.
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It was going to be like Thursday and Friday at the forum, Saturday and Sunday at the Hollywood Bowl with Johnny Mitchell.
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It was going to go back to back like my two heroes. >> Yeah. >> Like that. >> Yeah.
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And when I was building up to that being the case, it was just it became so overwhelming and so all-consuming that this little voice did start to say, "Okay, you're like not going to live very long if you keep setting the bar for yourself in these really stressful places."
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And >> you're only human. >> Yeah. Only human.
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Also, you're also hiding a little bit >> and you're hiding in really high pressure places. It's not like >> Yeah.
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You know, >> it's so funny because this idea, as I said, this idea of um collaboration, which which makes so many people happy, right?
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It starts with making you happy and makes the people you work with happy and then we get to benefit from it. It's beautiful for us.
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>> But is it too bold to suggest that after a while maybe it becomes a coping mechanism away from answering your own questions a little bit?
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>> I think it's it is an absolute coping mechanism that I have.
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I've had to like really take a look at that.
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You know, I've always really rolled my eyes and laughed at the concept of of codependence, thinking like, "Oh, that's all these, you know, 2025 these self-care people." You know what I mean? Instagrammable, right?
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>> This is Instagram psychology.
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Like, >> this isn't um this isn't real life.
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Like, really, >> we are meant to be dependent on one another.
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Like really we are meant to be in social circles and um live in a constant perpetuation a cycle of sacrificial um love and then while we're giving we're gaining and we don't really know it until retrospect you know and I still feel and hold fast really strongly sort of to that belief and which is like I've been making a joke like well it takes a village to return to yourself.
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>> Well this is it this is it.
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Like it's like, okay, you you you've only reinforced that belief because you've been through this process of questioning it, right?
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>> Isn't that what this album is? >> Yeah. Yeah. Questioning it.
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Questioning my most tender beliefs, the ones that I feel most strongly about.
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When you question those, that's what faith is in in in something is when you believe something so strongly, but you're willing to doubt it for long enough to learn more about what you believe.
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You know, >> that's a huge journey to go on.
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And I can imagine for somebody, I think the opening line of this lovely note that you shared with us all when you announced the album was coming said something to the effect of, you know, I've never been entirely comfortable in my own company.
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Like it's not my favorite place to be. >> No.
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>> And yet I can imagine for someone who has made a commitment to writing songs, which requires some inner reflection, that at times that that's a forced uncomfortability, isn't it?
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I mean, for someone who doesn't want to sit in their own company and yet has to take a guitar or an instrument to find out what they really think or feel, >> there's a there's a beautiful contradiction in that statement versus the action. >> Yeah.
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Because actually the act of learning an instrument is not something you can really do while someone's watching you.
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The act of writing a song is is it can be a a co-opted experience, but it's >> still going to mean something to you. >> Yeah.
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Like even when I've written with the twins or like anybody else, I got to go off in a corner or I can't get into the room.
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Like it just I can't get into the room. >> Yeah.
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>> Um I don't know how people write songs in in rooms, you know?
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Like I think it's >> uh like a ski just an incredible skill that I don't have like access to.
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So, I guess what it comes down to for me is is knowing how to be I don't know it's like the word alone, but feel like an individual no matter who's around.
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Like having people around me >> and yet still sort of holding on to myself.
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>> Um has been more like the journey this time than pushing everybody out and being alone.
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Like that's just I don't think I'm ever going to be able to get get with that, you know?
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What role does a song like Returning to Myself play in this overall experience?
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Because it's obviously the title of the album and it feels >> okay.
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So, at the end of the Hollywood Bowl, I was supposed to go meet Aaron Desert.
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I didn't know whether we were going to be writing songs for someone else or writing songs for me or what we were going to be doing, but um I knew I had never really collaborated with anybody else for my own albums other than the Twins.
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And so I I really underthought it.
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And I got on a plane the next day after the Hollywood Bowl, like totally hung over and just emotionally hung over too because there was a moment where I was sitting on stage with Joanie and she was singing Both Sides Now and I knew it was the last time for me.
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I knew it was my last time.
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And um I was just heartbroken.
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I don't even know how to express it.
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And it wasn't about like leaving Joanie.
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maybe more was about leaving that part of myself, >> you know?
14:51
So, I get on this plane and I go to um New York and I like think I'm going to land in the city and like go get a hotel >> and I land in in Buffalo, I think is where I landed. Yeah.
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>> And I got in a rental car. Yeah.
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>> And I drove out to this barn like in the middle of nowhere.
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I did not know what Long Punk was.
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I didn't know that exactly where Aaron lived.
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You know, he's like a man of few words.
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So, he didn't really explain it to me.
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And I got there and realized within the first few minutes like, "Oh god, I have to sleep here."
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Like, I'm going to sleep here by myself in this barn.
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>> This guy's going to leave.
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He's going to point to the refrigerator and show me where my blueberry muffin is, and then I'm alone in this place. >> Yeah.
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>> And I went up >> fresh from like the most communal, collaborative, wild.
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>> And the whole thing you're there to do is shine a light on Joanie. >> Yeah.
15:44
And it was just really stark to be alone in that barn after that.
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And I didn't know if I was going to be able to write any music.
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I didn't even bring a guitar.
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I went upstairs to the bedroom and I sat on this bed looking at like a blank wall.
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And I was so stressed to be that alone.
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And I wrote the poem for Returning Ink to myself. And it was just a poem.
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It didn't have music or anything yet.
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>> Okay, I got to get granulated.
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At what point do you decide whilst you're staring at the wall realizing that something is stirring in you and you're not quite sure how to translate that when do you reach for the pen?
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When do you reach for that moment where it's like, okay, I've got something to say because it must almost feel like an out of- body experience when those words come out of you because do you know what I mean? >> Yeah.
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Well, I was just like almost um rejecting it.
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Like I was almost feeling like, okay, this is it. This is a noble pursuit.
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like me staring at this wall like this is what it means to be learn to be alone.
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I guess I'm evolving right now, you know?
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I don't feel like I'm evolving.
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I feel like I'm not doing anything at all but just indulging myself and sitting here on this bed, you know?
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>> So, who's the watcher?
16:52
Are you the watcher watching yourself that opens the album?
16:55
How does that >> um I think I'm basically saying like is there really some malevolent entity like up in the sky, you know, lighting your life on fire like a piece of paper and just >> watching it burn and being amused >> at your long goodbye your you know it's like is that what this all really is or what are we really all here with all of these other people to learn to be alone?
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Is that really the point? >> Good question.
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And I was really hating it.
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I was really acidic and just not enjoying that.
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And so when I wrote Returning to Myself, it wasn't nearly as sweet as it wound up being. It was like, "Fuck off." >> Yeah.
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>> Like nobody's going to make me be alone, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny.
17:42
>> And then I had to be >> a You were kicking and screaming to the end.
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You were kicking and screaming to the end right there. >> Yeah.
17:47
Tony's like, "I'm painting."
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Jonathan's like, "You need to go to New York."
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any >> I definitely I gloss over the means to the end.
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I need I need I need the answers and >> you know I'm trying to be better as I get older with not being comfortable with it.
18:02
And that's kind of like what I love about making albums is like when we wrote By the Way I Forgive You, it wasn't because we had finally figured out the art of forgiveness.
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Like we, you know, we now know what all human life on planet Earth is destined toward, which is forgiveness.
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And we did not know that.
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That's why we wrote the album because we were in the middle of it.
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We were in the not knowing how to do it.
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>> And that's where I am right now with the album Returning to myself.
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I have not figured it out.
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>> I'm going to figure it out as I sing it and talk to people like you and process this, you know, in real life.
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I'm living in a war with time.
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I could still reach out and touch you and I wish I didn't know the things I know.
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Standing in an open door.
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None of it was overrated.
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And I'm never going to want to let you go.
19:02
>> So, this really was just an excuse to go fishing, huh? >> Yeah.
19:04
I like really did mean it.
19:04
I was like, "Zane, I want to take you fishing."
19:07
And you're like, "Oh, she wants to talk about the album."
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I'm like, "No, I want to take you fishing." Well, bad news.
19:11
We're going to talk about the >> You're a good friend.
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You're such a good friend to come out here and do this. You're >> the best. I'm a lot.
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I'm really happy to be here.
19:17
And as far as, you know, experiences go, getting an opportunity to to come out here in the open ocean with you and to see this side of your life.
19:24
And I feel like this is the life you've always you've been building towards.
19:28
It's not like, you know, you had some success and was like, "Okay, let me go figure out what fishing means to me."
19:33
Like, in a way, the other stuff had to fit into this part of you, right?
19:36
You never let go of this. >> No. No.
19:38
This is like a really really big part of who I am.
19:40
And I've been fishing and trout fishing like since I was a kid.
19:45
Actually, when we first when we first started the band, me and the twins, we would get on the bus with fishing poles.
19:52
>> And you'd be surprised how much like urban fishing there is >> just like side of the road, get off, there's a lake out there just, you know, >> and the venues kind of like always have tend to be like by an urban river or some kind of urban lake and like there's always fish in there.
20:03
You know, it's catch and release thing.
20:04
And if you're doing it right, you can kind of be, you know, inflict as little harm as possible on the critter and put it back in there and still like be you and live a life.
20:14
And it's >> some that's some cool punk rock Like it speaks to who you are even throughout all of the acclaim and success which you continue to achieve through your art.
20:21
Um, and your gift is that, you know, I think you seem to thrive in being on the outskirts.
20:26
I don't want to say outsider. >> Yeah.
20:30
because I know that you fit really well in the room as well, but you but you like looking outside of the bubble, right?
20:36
It's important to you that you don't get consumed by it. >> Yeah.
20:39
It's really important that you don't believe your own hype.
20:41
And there are always places that you can go to tune back in. >> Yeah.
20:48
>> And people that will hold you accountable and that won't laugh at your jokes and that don't say yes to everything.
20:54
>> These are the people you write about. >> They're the people. They're the keepers.
20:57
>> They're all over this album. >> Yeah.
20:58
>> It's it's really fascinating.
20:58
>> It's it's really fascinating. been listening to this record for so many reasons and I'm so glad that we get to talk about it cuz it's really strikes me that in the 4 years since we've last spoken when we spoke on the last project uh last album of yours um that you've sort of embraced life as material in a
21:15
in a way even more which isn't a given often artists will find a reason to separate the two or maybe make it a little bit more of a mysterious influence whereas I feel like you've really accepted who you are as a family person and the life you've built for yourself as open material to write about on this record. >> Yeah, I think so. And there it takes >> Yeah, I think so.
21:34
And there it takes like some cooperation.
21:36
Like my oldest doesn't like to be talked about and I like talking about her on stage and my youngest really wants to be talked about.
21:43
So what I feel like a pressure to find things to say about her.
21:45
Um >> which is oldest and youngest again?
21:48
>> Evangelene's the oldest and Elijah's the youngest.
21:50
And Elijah is just such an old woman.
21:52
She just like lives in such a complete way.
21:55
It's like it's hard to do anything other than learn from Elijah.
21:59
You know, she has this thing and Evangeline >> she's just a little more untamed, like just a little wild, you know?
22:06
>> Um, >> and they have these different personalities that, you know, you know, the the two kids thing.
22:10
It's incredibly like a fulfilling thing.
22:12
And then my wife, you know, Katherine, I mean, I'm in love with her and I'm angry with her sometimes and I really miss her when we're not together.
22:22
And I struggle with um how much I should miss someone or how close I should be allowed to be to someone before I'm being unhealthy.
22:32
>> And I don't know what that is.
22:32
>> And I don't know what that is. I don't know if it's I think it's from like growing up in Alcoholics Anonymous and and um Alanon and Alatine and stuff is that like I think you're taught from like a really young age like that you know codependency is a really unhealthy thing and it's something that
22:50
I like struggle with struggling with >> even just the concept of love and I and you know we talked about your book last time we we had a proper conversation and it was clear that you were sort of basking a sense of relief having written that and come through the other side of that experience and come face to face with who you who you became through your early life. >> Um but even just the concept of love,
23:09
>> Um but even just the concept of love, right?
23:11
Like >> the idea of being loved >> is a lot when you you go through the kind of the kind of life that you and others go through, it's like hang on, am I am I going to be able to accept it? >> Yeah.
23:22
>> Can I accept it in my life?
23:22
Can I be a willing participant of this experience?
23:26
And I think that I should pay you for therapy because like that you're zeroing in on like on kind of what it is is it's like I don't know if I can fully accept love freely or being loved freely without equating it to being dependent upon.
23:42
>> And then creating an environment where that is >> and that's and that's you become a fixer.
23:46
Then you become someone wants to fix everybody fixing everything because that's just like that's how we get love.
23:51
That's how we get love or work you know work for the greater good like workhorse. I'm a sled dog. I'm a sled dog. I'm on pull the sled.
23:58
>> Even in your creative relationships, it's been really honest.
23:59
I mean, you know, they look I'm sure Elton and Brandy and Tanya and all these people look to you for you, the artist, and you're like, >> can I play a role in somehow making all of this special and making it unique and it's it's a beautiful curatorial side of you, but it's fascinating to see you come and hear you come face to face with that on this record.
24:15
I feel like you're really pulling it apart on this record.
24:18
>> Yeah, I'm really pulling it apart on this record.
24:19
I'm having I'm definitely having big big existential feelings.
24:24
This is probably a midlife crisis.
24:24
Like, >> you know what I mean? How old are you, Zane? >> I'm 52. >> You're 52? Are you having one?
24:31
>> I don't even I think I had one.
24:34
>> My wife will tell you I went through one. I I don't know.
24:35
I don't know how to define it.
24:36
I know when I started to come out of it. >> Yeah.
24:39
>> Which was, you know, when I started to look around me and realize that I really wasn't racing anybody or anything anymore. >> Yeah. >> Including myself. >> Mhm.
24:47
>> And I I I wanted that about you.
24:47
I wanted kind of what your relationship like is with ambition at this point in your life.
24:52
I'm still working that out.
24:54
But I know that on my 40th birthday, I woke up at a friend's house in Malibu that I was staying with.
25:02
And I was going to go home where my family was throwing me a birthday party.
25:08
And I woke up and I looked out at the ocean and it was like so calm.
25:15
I just remember thinking, I don't want to go home.
25:18
I I I want to I want to stay here.
25:21
I want to order a burrito from Howdies, I think it's called. >> Mhm.
25:27
>> And be here and like look at the ocean all day.
25:29
And I made a couple phone calls and I didn't go home to like my own birthday party. >> Wow.
25:35
>> And I think that was like a really big turning point because I did like I did something kind of a flippant dismissive thing that like I wanted to do. >> Yeah. >> And um Yeah.
25:44
I don't know if I'd do it the same way again, but it was like a realization like, hey, if I do this thing, does this make me an Does this make me like not who I am or does this make me just doing something I want to do today?
25:59
>> Well, also that's there's a sliding scale to that answer, right?
26:00
Cuz some people would be like, yeah, like some people be like, man, how could you let everyone down like that?
26:04
But then other people, and the way that you're describing it to me right now on the boat is like, you know, I had to do this for my own sense of like growth.
26:09
Like I had to figure out who I am to me and what I want to get out of this rather than what everybody else expects me to do.
26:16
>> Which is kind of what being like I mean the whole thing of developing an identity through the lens of kind of performance and expression, right?
26:20
That >> you give over some of yourself to people when you achieve your goals. You can't not do that. >> Absolutely. Like you absolutely do.
26:28
And that's that's probably the definition of what it means to be an entertainer, you know, is like if you are trying to entertain people, make people laugh, make people feel things, make people sing, give people a night out and away from their kids, you get this like inflated sense of self-importance, but it is selfless. It's weird. >> It's so weird.
26:47
>> Nothing scares me more than a sneeze.
26:50
You know, if I sneeze, I am terrified that I'm about to let 5,000 people down because I I can't sing with a cold.
26:57
Like I can't even sing a little bit with a cold.
26:59
I just have that kind of voice, you know?
27:02
>> And the thought of cancing those tickets and those babysitters and that night, it's like I feel like it's going to eight like I'm going to not live very long with that sense of like panic I get about like letting people down on mass, you know, >> and I have to like find a way to grapple with that at this age and still somehow find a way to be a mom and still find a way to be, you know, um a wife.
27:25
>> Well, thanks to everybody, right? Uh a war War with time. >> A war with time. >> This idea of time. >> Yeah.
27:33
>> You know, there's a great lyric when you talk about like uh you know, I think it's in a woman overseas.
27:37
We talk about you know, after 40, you've got to kind of learn every you got you got to figure it out for yourself.
27:42
You got to start listening. >> Yeah.
27:44
Nobody's swimming out to save you after 40.
27:46
You have to figure it out yourself. >> Uhhuh.
27:48
And then you have to become responsible for your time in a different way because you're on the other side of it to some degree. We're hitting that way. >> Yeah.
27:54
>> Where did that song come from?
27:54
I love that song and I wanted to know sort of where where you were when it when it struck you when it found you.
28:00
>> I was thinking about where you are honestly and it can be interpreted many different ways.
28:05
I've heard it interpreted in some really heartbreaking ways.
28:07
But I was thinking about because I was up there with Aaron Desner.
28:10
I was thinking about my first trip to um New York City and I hadn't I hadn't got on a plane until I was 17 years old which only took me to Boise, Idaho, you know.
28:22
So it wasn't but a couple of years later I was on a plane to go to New York City for the first time and in just any city. I hadn't been anywhere.
28:29
I'd been to like Los Angeles once in Boise, Idaho and then boom, Manhattan.
28:36
>> So from the Cascade Mountains >> and it was like there were so many um twisted and beautiful and inspiring and devastating things about it.
28:46
I felt like I was tasting the whole world in one city.
28:50
And I felt so grown up and so separate of my family and our trailer and just like the way that that we lived, you know, and I was just thinking that there's that turning point moment like for every young person. >> Yeah.
29:05
>> And you you don't want it to them to go, but you want them to go. >> Yeah.
29:09
It's the order of things.
29:10
>> It's the order of things. Yeah. >> Yeah.
29:12
Now that you've had some distance from the experience of of going over some of the the really formative moments in your life, you've written the book and put some of it to music.
29:20
How is it how is that sort of upbringing which is unique?
29:24
You know, h how is it reframed, if at all, for you as you as you're starting to mature and your kids are getting older and everything else?
29:31
What do you think about when you think about the the environment that you grew up in?
29:36
Like how do you frame it now?
29:39
Well, it's really random, but like my sort of philosophical approach to how I raise my kids versus how I was raised, I've learned from the uh Chris Rock's latest standup routine.
29:53
>> There's a lot to it, but I I saw him.
29:53
I went out and saw him and um I just think he's like amazing.
29:59
>> But um you know, the gist of it is that >> you can't artificially create poverty.
30:05
>> You can't create a struggle that isn't there.
30:06
All you can do is accept that everyone is going to have their own struggle. >> Yeah.
30:10
>> And you know, it's hard to raise kids in an environment I don't understand.
30:17
>> Like I don't understand not worrying about being poor and not worrying about where my next meal is going to come from.
30:27
You know, I don't understand how to raise kids that didn't grow up with smokers in a single wide mobile home wondering if they stunk when they went to school every day.
30:32
But that was an incredible character building for me, you know, because I still got up in front of the classroom and sang every chance I got.
30:41
I still took really big risks because I just sort of understood at a really young age that we're all walking around out here inside out. We're all naked.
30:50
And it's like if you can lose that sense of uh self, if you can lose that sense of of veneer at a really young age, it's like getting chickenpox or um or like getting your heart broke or like learning to ski.
31:05
It's not something that is acceptable >> as an as an adult.
31:10
It's better if you like learn it as a kid.
31:12
So, I guess I got to find like artificial ways to help my kids develop character.
31:16
I mean, one is that they have gay parents and that they're living in a country right now that's hostile to that.
31:22
Um, not holistically, but there are parts of it that are that way.
31:25
The other one is that they have had a lot of inconsistency in their lives because my wife and I work together and we want to be together and so we have to take these kids all over the place.
31:35
And so, they've they've had to miss out on some things that I think that they're going to probably be pretty mad at me about when when they grow up, you know, like the ability to be on a soccer team. Yeah.
31:44
or function within one school for a year without falling behind. Yeah.
31:49
So, they're gonna have their own sense of adversity.
31:50
But my childhood and the way I was raised >> is inapplicable to my girls and it's not bitter.
31:58
That sense of narcissism that like whatever we had made better people.
32:02
It's just us like maybe feeling ourselves a little too much.
32:07
There's a beautiful song on the album called Human, which I think is a conversation with yourself, but really speaks for all of us, which is this idea of like why do we make it so hard for ourselves to just be? >> Mhm.
32:20
>> To just literally keep it uncomplicated?
32:23
Why are we looking for um devastation all around us that or predicting that that it's all going to go bad?
32:27
And everybody does it, right?
32:29
It's it's some weird wiring that we have where we're just never too far away from something catastrophic, right?
32:35
I don't know if it if it serves to keep us present. >> Yeah.
32:39
>> Or removes us from the present.
32:40
Sometimes it's a bit of both.
32:42
>> Well, I guess it probably depends on how we age and how we sort of look at it. But you're right.
32:48
Like I do feel that every generation since recorded history believes that their generation is the one living through the end of the world.
32:55
>> I find I think I think that's really comforting. And we do.
32:57
We all see our conflicts and our wars and our political upheavalss and tyranny and democracy in constant balance.
33:04
You know, >> we're in a loop. >> We're in a loop.
33:06
And and the loop is the loop of humanity. And don't be apathetic. Don't ignore it. Don't look away. Do fight. Do be an activist.
33:13
Do get up out of bed every morning and think about how you can serve humanity, but also touch grass.
33:19
like also realize that you're here for a split second and that you don't want to look back and realize you missed the whole thing because you believed you were living through the end of the world. >> Okay.
33:29
So, let's remove the end of the world and take a look at the world you create for yourself and the and the work ethic that you build for yourself in order to stay active and to cope and let's and let's put you in that song and are you having a conversation with yourself in that song when you say, you know, don't break your back.
33:42
They don't give awards for that.
33:44
>> You know, I like awards. >> I know you do.
33:46
I mean, I don't know how to contend with the fact that I like award and rewards as much as I do, but yeah, I'm like a golden retriever with a with a soccer ball.
33:59
Like, you can't get my teeth off something when I'm >> when I'm into it.
34:03
And so, yeah, I'm very much talking to myself and trying to remind myself that I have like a split second to be alive on this planet.
34:09
And >> is Katherine laughing at you or is she encouraging you?
34:13
Because I say that out of love because the people who know us the best look us look at us as we struggle through some of these like self-reflections and they know deep down like Brandy like you are as God made you. You know what I mean?
34:23
Like >> no dude, she's got to figure it out too, you know? >> Yeah.
34:27
>> I think I think that that's where we're at right now.
34:29
The people that are in the the middle of life, like we have to we have to figure it out.
34:35
We know we're at the turning point >> and we're like, "Okay, how are we going to do the second half?" >> Great conversation. >> You know what I mean?
34:41
I I don't want to pretend to be or feel any younger than I am.
34:45
Like I've already wasted enough time on that.
34:48
>> Like >> I think the question that like everybody should be asking themselves >> after they've done their work at the end of the day is like what makes you happy?
34:56
I know that sounds really neoliberal, but it's not.
34:59
It's like literally what do you like to eat? >> What makes you laugh?
35:02
Who's your favorite comedian?
35:03
Who's your favorite musician?
35:05
Where have you always wanted to go?
35:06
And is there something you've ever wanted to learn?
35:07
says page number one, sentence number one is what do you like? >> What do you like?
35:11
Most people say I don't know >> especially if they've worked really hard >> or been really stressed.
35:20
>> So there's no imposter syndrome here. >> Yeah, >> there is. >> Yeah, dude. There is. >> There is.
35:26
I'm just like everybody else.
35:29
>> I think that everything that I achieve is a fluke. >> Wild.
35:34
So there you are meeting and working with your heroes at the closest level achieving things and having experiences that young Brandy Carla could never have imagined were going to happen.
35:44
I mean the power of manifestation in full display here, right?
35:49
>> And can you really enjoy it?
35:49
Can you allow yourself the space to enjoy it?
35:51
Do you get to a place where you're like, "Yes, I'm in the studio with Elson.
35:56
We're banging out this tune. I can dig it." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The whole time.
35:59
Like I remember when >> I think I learned that like around the By the Way, I Forgive You album.
36:05
Um where I was like I would get so stressed and so scared for big things. >> Yeah.
36:14
>> And then I'd be like, "Oh, I really enjoyed that, but I don't know until now, now that it's all over and I'm looking back on it, that actually that was an amazing day.
36:23
Why couldn't I just be there?
36:23
Like, couldn't I just slow down, know it was going to be okay, and like experience that day?"
36:29
So around the time that cool started happening with that album, I was like, "Dude, I'm going to be here for this."
36:35
Like, and I remember walking out on stage for the Grammy performance, the one that kind of changed really everything.
36:42
Dude, there was something so workmanlike about it, like plugging in my acoustic guitar, standing on stage behind like a video wall with my band, looking around at my literal bar band, and being like, "Okay, let's be here.
36:58
let's like be here for the next four minutes.
37:00
We know exactly what to do.
37:01
It'll probably never happen again.
37:01
And the way I like enjoyed that performance.
37:06
I enjoyed it and I took that forward with me and now that's just how I do everything.
37:10
I have so enjoyed working with those heroes and I haven't missed a second from fear.
37:16
>> When I when we spoke after I listened to the album and there's a song in the middle of the album, smack dab in the middle of the album or just after probably the starter side too for talking vinyl which is called Church and State. >> Oh yeah.
37:25
you what the what all stars.
37:25
So cling offer must be involved in that. >> The what all star. >> Yeah.
37:34
Is is it Chamberlain or is it Smith?
37:36
>> That's Matt Chamberlain.
37:36
Yeah, that was a long night.
37:39
>> Yeah, you got some real players and um you know you honor the weight of the subject with the power of the music.
37:43
So I'd love to know about that composition and you talked about it being a long night. What what was it?
37:51
Well, that that song is unlike the rest of the album because >> the rest of the album is really really thought about and it's not that it's not instinctual.
37:59
It's just that that was like a jam.
38:00
We were set up like to jam and that song was really carnal and we were like set up to jam. We were in a circle.
38:07
It was like rock and roll time and it was November 5th.
38:09
It was the night of the election. >> Okay.
38:12
Did you plan to write a song on November 5th?
38:13
Did you plan to rock out on November 5th?
38:15
Did you know what you were doing or was it a pure reaction?
38:18
No, we I went into the studio, laptop open, spiraling, just like not doing great emotionally.
38:26
And I mean, I kind of knew what was coming.
38:29
I had written human the night before, >> right?
38:32
>> And you know, it was like a a primal cry for self-preservation in a way, but not just for me, like for everybody, you I get I was having a conversation recently with um my kids, both kids and Katherine.
38:48
We were at the dinner table, very American, and uh my really serious older daughter, she said um and she's 11, and she had heard overheard us talking about whether or not the Supreme Court was going to hear the case that could turn overturn Overberfill. >> Mhm.
39:08
>> And uh she'd just been overhearing it.
39:10
And that's the one thing about having kids, right, is like they overhear >> and you're not sure >> everything. >> Yeah.
39:17
>> I I've been talking about that for years.
39:19
And in 2016, I started really talking about it.
39:22
When Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, I started really talking about it.
39:26
And it became a real possibility.
39:27
When Ro got overturned, I was like, "Fucking hell." >> Yeah.
39:31
>> So, I've been talking about it for a long time.
39:32
So my daughter, like out of nowhere, she says, "Hey, um, mama, if uh," she's trying to make light of it.
39:40
She goes, "Hey, if the Supreme Court gets rid of gay marriage," she goes, "Hey, we can just get on your boat."
39:44
And she literally says, "Be bop on up to Canada, right?" >> Bop up to Canada.
39:51
>> And I was like, "Yeah, bud.
39:51
The Canada's right there.
39:53
We can, but we don't got to go to Canada." Yeah.
39:55
If that happens, you know? >> Yeah. >> It'll be all right. >> Yeah.
39:58
What an interesting crossroads to be at with a child, too.
40:00
Because on the one hand, they want safety and security.
40:03
But on the other hand, it's like, yeah, but we don't cut and run.
40:04
So, where's the balance of learning?
40:07
>> But it gets weirder because because then she goes, but then Elijah, my youngest, she chimes in and she starts to get weepy and she goes, "Mommy and mama, I don't want to go up to Canada."
40:17
>> And we were like on the edge of laughing.
40:18
We didn't know what this was all about.
40:20
And then Evangelene looks at Elijah with like this all of this intensity and she goes, "It's better than not having a mommy or a mama."
40:26
And I realized for years she's believed that this orphans her. >> Yeah. Fight or flight.
40:35
This is >> This means she doesn't have parents. >> Yeah. It's a survival. >> Yeah.
40:38
And you can't you can't impose that kind of pain on a kid, you know, and it's it's self-inflicted.
40:46
I did it, but it's the country I live in. >> No, no, no, no. Hang on.
40:48
But you're not the one that's questioning this law and finding out whether or not we go backwards. >> Yeah. Really go backwards.
40:55
I just wish I'd finished explaining it.
40:57
I wish I'd like >> told her that it didn't mean that she was not going to have parents, you know?
41:03
>> So, like knowing that she'd been like quietly carrying that around. It made me so mad. >> Yeah, it's tough.
41:08
>> And when I sing church and state, it's like a rock song, but it's the one I'm probably most on the edge about.
41:16
You said something before at the beginning of the day that you know working with Aaron it's like one of if not the first time you've really collaborated with anyone in your music outside of with the twins. >> Yeah.
41:26
>> Obviously you worked with what so you'd had some experience working other people's music and in that space but >> different for you in your own zone and and you also extended it out to his friend Justin. >> Yeah.
41:36
>> Justin Vernon who is like the sweetest.
41:39
>> Well he did because I I idolize him. >> Dude for reals.
41:42
this guy like he has such a incredible pension for some of the my favorite women in music like his all-time great favorite artist Bonnie Ra >> major hero for me obviously we know that same >> and then he's like a massive Indigo Girls fan.
42:00
I think Indigo Girls are like so underserved and >> um and underrated as like just groundbreaking >> artists.
42:09
Not just queer artists, not just women, but just artists in general.
42:12
like no one sounds like the Indigo Girls.
42:13
No one has ever been able to pull that off.
42:16
>> So, what's it like being in the room with him when you get to actually collaborate with him?
42:18
Because obviously Aaron brought him in and so you're like, "Oh this is turning into something even more special than I thought."
42:23
So, what was that experience like?
42:25
>> Well, we were finishing each other's sentences.
42:26
We were finishing each other's sentences musically and then just like talking.
42:30
He's got Indigo Girls lyrics like tattooed on his body, you know, like he is a really special artist.
42:38
And Aaron, you know, he had an intuition about it.
42:42
He could hear in my voice how much I um idolized Justin and how much I love those Bonnie Ve albums and everything that he's done, including with Aaron and um Big Bread Machine.
42:53
And I think that, you know, he just he brought him to kind of visit me and like it was going to make my day just to have him there.
43:03
But when he turned up, he was wearing an Emmy Lou Harris t-shirt.
43:09
>> And >> did he know the impact that had on this? Wow.
43:12
>> He did not know the way that wrecking. >> He's tapped in. >> Oh. Oh, we're on. We're on. >> Yeah. Neutral. >> Neutral. >> Okay. >> All right.
43:26
>> Keep that tension on there.
43:26
Just don't let that go cuz it's a barbless. >> All right. Yeah.
43:33
Looks like he's going to come around that way.
43:34
Try and train your pole this way. There you go. >> Yeah.
43:37
>> I'm just going to get in front of you.
43:38
If he really won't listen and he's got to go that way, you can go that way, too. >> Yeah.
43:43
You got a nice fish on there. Yeah, dude.
43:45
You're about to catch a salmon. >> Yeah. Love it. >> Yes. Okay. >> We got him. >> Almost. Right in. >> Wow. Decent size. >> What's up, buddy? >> Yeah. Oh, thank you, buddy.
44:04
>> I don't see a back fence, so he's a keeper. >> You got a salmon.
44:08
>> We honor the sacrifice and we're going to have a beautiful lunch out here. >> Beautiful co salmon. He's beautiful. >> He's beautiful.
44:15
>> All right, just going to get >> good spot. Stop panning.
44:21
There's fish all over the screen.
44:21
We're really headed right into it right now. >> We're going for it.
44:27
>> When you were resetting the boat just then, it's really interesting.
44:28
And you were talking about kind of the relationship that your music has with the people who really appreciate it the most because often you release music out into the world and it's like you never know until you stand in front of people. >> Yeah.
44:40
>> But but I think you seem to have more of an acute knowledge as to what people get from your songs and where they are in their life to some degree.
44:47
And it comes back to that place of just being on the outskirts a little bit and looking for community. Right.
44:53
>> Looking for community. Yeah.
44:53
I can see them from on stage.
44:54
So, I feel like I know who who they are.
44:57
And >> it's there's a lot of gay people.
45:02
Um, like a lot of gay people, which makes me feel like less alone and kind of understood in a way, you know.
45:09
There's a lot of what compels me to make music that comes from that difference in who I am. Mhm.
45:16
>> Um, you know, but the other thing is that when I first started doing this job, like I played residencies in restaurants a lot.
45:25
And the thing about like restaurant residencies is it's not like the music people like it's not the cool people going out to like concerts, you know, like that start at midnight or Oh, we're on.
45:39
>> Oh, now I'm going to watch the pro do it. >> Neutral. >> Neutral. >> I don't know.
45:45
We might We might not be on anymore. Let's find out.
45:49
We either got a little shaker or he's swimming towards us or I'm not as good as Zayn and he popped off. I'm not as good as Zane. We lost him.
45:57
>> You just want me to step in just >> I got the flasher hanging. I'll reset the heading. >> Okay.
46:02
So, just to be clear, so far I'm the only one that's caught a fish today.
46:06
>> So far, you're the only damn one. >> Just making sure. Just making sure.
46:10
So, what I was saying before that salmon rudely interrupted us >> or lack of salmon as the case may be. >> Okay.
46:15
Well, he was there and then he wasn't.
46:16
I was the only one that touched the pool.
46:19
So, >> I'm just keeping it a buck. That's all.
46:24
>> If I don't get one, I swear to God, sane.
46:27
Um, is that I used to do restaurant residencies and restaurant residency like restaurant people are different than concert people.
46:34
Restaurant people are different than even club people or bar people.
46:36
like there's a whole other reason for doing what what they're doing.
46:39
And so I would do these like three-hour sets, 15-inute breaks for food and and money at like places all over Seattle, like Salty's on Alkai, Billine's Ravioli Station, the Dubliner Irish Pub, the Paragon Bar and Grill, these places all over Seattle.
46:56
And it would be like literally my Monday gig, my Tuesday gig, my Wednesday gig.
46:59
And in the day I would be busking at Pike Place.
47:01
So again, regular people, regular people, regular people.
47:03
And not that music fans aren't regular people, but there's something about >> finding a person with music that isn't going to experience music like that.
47:13
They're going to experience chicken instead.
47:15
>> And >> and there's like an element of that like still in me where it's like, yeah, well, you know, I know where the Oh, >> yeah.
47:26
That looks pretty promising.
47:26
Let's see if we can bust it off and down right here. >> Neutral.
47:36
Oh yeah, that's a good fish.
47:38
>> It's a really nice fish.
47:38
I'm going to try and walk it right into the net. >> So, right here.
47:41
>> And you're going to go kind of like >> underneath it and scoop up. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. >> All right. All right. I'm going to go there. Okay. Right underneath it. Yeah. >> And scoop. You got it. >> All right, buddy. >> Nice job. We got a back in. Okay.
47:57
We're going to release this one. >> Great.
48:00
>> So, we're going to be extra careful. >> Yep. >> Back in. >> Yep. I'm going to do it. >> You got it. >> Well, I'm good. >> All right, buddy. >> Got any blood? >> Another day.
48:08
>> We're in a good situation here. >> Just like that.
48:14
>> Yeah, this is going good. >> Good job, dude.
48:17
>> I'm going to get us set back up.
48:17
Okay, so I'm playing in restaurants and, you know, in my breaks, I sit down at the table with people and I get their phone number, you know, and their email address, which is a new thing in the '9s. >> Yeah.
48:28
>> Yeah. like >> and then I would get gather up all these people during the week in my residencies and then once a month I would play a big show and by big I mean like the tractor tavern or the crocodile or some iconic Seattle like place and then instead of like the tractor tavern people or the
48:45
crocodile people it was like the restaurant people would just come and fill this concert hall and it wasn't hipsters it was like it was Chatter House people and we would have like the best time and it would be like such a party and the record labels and people started taking notice because they're
49:03
like first of all how is she filling all these clubs and who are these people and like what is this to a certain extent that is kind of like what my career's developed into is I've gone into a lot of really small towns I've gone into a lot of really off thebeaten path places and I've engaged people on a personal
49:21
level and I feel privileged to be pretty accessible too you know and I want to be known and seen on an on a on a level of just kind of being a normal person with like a normal family because I think it's good for LGBTQ people and rights moving forward for people to see the relatability of my family to yours. But
49:41
But also, it's it's great musically because I found have found people to do life with that are just really open to my changes musically because they're just a little different.
49:56
They're just a little off the beaten path.
49:59
>> And no one knew that when I was sitting there eating the chicken. >> No.
50:02
>> You didn't know any of this. No, man.
50:04
>> So, you caught people in the purest space. >> Yeah.
50:07
>> With the purest reaction to what you were doing and you and you made a connection.
50:10
those that that's that's your whole fan base, right?
50:13
That's the beginning of your whole fan base right there.
50:16
They're the most loyal fans you'll ever have.
50:18
>> Well, and they get the t-shirt and they get on the plane and then also they get behind the cause.
50:21
If we decide to campaign for something or fundra for an an earthquake or displaced people or food scarcity problems, they we get on board together these like alliances.
50:33
>> This is how we create movements.
50:33
This is how we change This is how we don't become disenfranchised.
50:37
I mean, I love the outlaw movement, but you know, again, >> what is it to be alone? Like, really?
50:46
>> You've got a song on the album called Human.
50:48
You're trying to find a way for people to cut themselves a little bit of slack in all of this because otherwise, how do we survive it?
50:52
And yet, you on the front lines of the human experience every night you play a show. >> Yeah.
50:58
>> People from all different walks of life and all different social and political.
51:01
>> I see people out there crying and stuff.
51:03
That's like when you see people out there crying, it's so hard to keep it together. >> Yeah.
51:07
because it's like a cough or a sneeze.
51:09
Like it's such a human experience to want to >> join.
51:12
>> Do you know what I mean?
51:12
So if it's like somebody's out there crying to you without me, I'm like, "Don't do it. Don't lose it. Don't go.
51:16
Your voice is going to get really ugly if you go if you cry right now."
51:20
>> What have you learned since you've been writing songs that appeal to people?
51:24
You've written enough songs and done enough shows to be able to probably have a a pretty good snapshot of of what the experience is, what the human experience is.
51:34
What are people really looking for from your position as a writer and a performer?
51:40
>> Well, I think that most people really just want to be understood and you can be understood from a song.
51:46
A song can come across in such a way or the singer can be singing it in such a way with the look on their face to where you feel understood by that song and in that moment.
51:57
And it can happen in mass to 10,000 people at a concert have seen it.
52:01
And that's when we get like we have swarm intelligence.
52:03
You ever seen like a bees just or birds, you know, like people do that in concerts with emotions and that's I think that's probably my addiction.
52:14
That's the thing that I'm showing up every every single time for is to try to feel like I'm in that swarm of emotional intelligence and and connectedness.
52:25
Do you ever feel pressure to show up because you are such an honest writer and just your very existence, who you are, who you were born to be, and how you choose to live your life, the choices you make, and the people that that you've built a life with.
52:40
Do you ever feel sometimes there's a responsibility that you're not even necessarily ready to undertake in order to speak for people or to stand up for things? >> Yeah, absolutely.
52:49
Like, but most people don't notice that.
52:51
And I get called into these situations that I'm like not ready for all the time. >> Yeah.
52:58
>> You know, like not ready to speak on, not ready to have an opinion on, you know, and then you >> you like have to open your mouth because you're standing on stage and it's like, dude, I'm a singer.
53:05
Like I am a high school dropout. I'm trailer trash.
53:07
And like I I may get an answer right now and then, but I think that like the key and the older I get, the more I realize this is just opening like letting your hearts be open to being wrong and knowing that everybody is heartbroken. Everybody is shattered.
53:27
Everybody is saying the wrong thing and maybe even thinking the wrong thing for a little while.
53:30
And my job is to open my mouth and let words come out.
53:35
>> And they're not always going to nail it.
53:37
And sometimes, yeah, that pressure to have perspective is just not fair.
53:39
And it's not fair on other artists either.
53:44
>> It's not fair on the people who expect it either because it's it should be a genuine willing participation.
53:47
It shouldn't be something that feels like it's a trade.
53:51
>> I had to play in LA the day that row was overturned.
53:58
>> Do you know what I mean? Like >> No, I don't.
53:59
And I can only I can only guess how hard that was.
54:04
>> And there and there are other ones, too.
54:05
It's like uh mass shootings and you're walking out on stage six hours later. >> Yeah.
54:11
>> You know, huge pieces of political unrest, lost elections, you know, and then you're on stage and everybody's like, what's what are they going to say about the thing >> knowing what to say is really, really hard.
54:22
And I don't think anybody gets it more than 30% right.
54:26
>> But in that 30% is truth. >> There's truth in it. Yeah.
54:28
And it's an evolving truth.
54:30
You know, everybody else in the audience like their truth is evolving, too. >> Yeah.
54:34
Have you ever experienced writer's block?
54:37
>> So, I don't know if I believe in writer's block, but I do go long periods of time where I don't write, where writing just doesn't happen to me, like years sometimes, like a year or two years.
54:47
>> What What's your energy like when that's happening?
54:50
>> It's really focused on something else, like this or um I love finished carpentry, but I like driving stuff.
54:54
I like driving RVs and dirt work machines, excavators, and skid steers and tractors and stuff like that.
55:01
And I really like cooking and I grow tomatoes.
55:06
>> So like whatever it is, I'm putting all this this fire hose of kind of like untameable energy and focus into like something and then those songs don't get written in that time.
55:17
So I don't look at it as like I have writer's block.
55:18
I look at it as like well my creative spirit is on this >> right now.
55:24
Is there a song on the album um think of maybe like No One Knows Us which feels like a safe place for you? >> No one Knows us.
55:33
I would think like if I really think about it in terms of like safe safety or feeling safe or being in a safe place, it's more of nostalgia for not having any safe place and feeling safe anyway.
55:45
>> And it's about like these relationships that are just like right on the edge of okay, you know what I mean?
55:50
And they're always the best ones.
55:53
Those are the people that maybe you don't see them very, but when you see them, you're like, you're back. >> Yeah. Yeah.
56:00
>> These dysfunctional relationships that are just right on the edge of like taking you down, you know, where >> you still yearn for those?
56:04
That's still a part of the life experience. >> I still have them.
56:08
>> You can't make old friends. >> Facts.
56:13
>> I have had the same phone number since I was since they came out with Nokia phones.
56:20
I've had the same phone number since I was like 18.
56:21
Like since you and I before that I had a pager and all those people like I cannot let them go.
56:28
Like I will never >> I will never let that go.
56:32
>> Who's the oldest friend you have?
56:32
How long have you known the oldest friend you you have?
56:35
>> Uh the oldest friend I have I mean I have to say is you know probably my brother who's you know >> a life >> my best best friend.
56:44
But like, but it was hard because we moved, you know, we moved like 14 times. >> Yeah.
56:51
>> I didn't go to one school >> two days, two years in a row. We're on. >> We're on.
56:56
>> This is such a great way to have conversations.
57:00
>> Can I get in on this one?
57:01
>> Dude, you got to get in on this one.
57:01
If you catch two though, you're going you're going to drink, >> right?
57:05
>> I think something else happened.
57:05
Are we in the shallows, Tone? >> Nope. >> Well, we're off.
57:10
So, I don't think there was a fish on this. >> Yeah. See? See?
57:13
You see it popping up like that? >> Yeah.
57:16
>> That's the flashers coming up. >> Exactly. >> Well, we got kelp. >> All right.
57:20
>> I'll let you bring that in. >> Will you decelify? We got a salad. We got our salad.
57:26
>> Are we going over it right now? >> What? >> The spot. >> Yeah. Excellent. >> Okay. >> Wow.
57:32
You have some pretty amazing instincts for this Brand.
57:34
You speak the language before you even knew how, right? >> That's pretty clear.
57:39
>> Finding ways to get people on fish is like, dude, that's my happy place.
57:45
Where do you go from here, Brandy?
57:45
Like, you've made this album and it's not like you haven't been active, been you've been applying yourself in so many different ways, but do you sort of miss, for lack of a better term, the more traditional cycle of putting a record out, going on the road?
57:59
Do you do you want to do a world tour?
58:00
Do you want to do you want to do all this?
58:04
>> I do miss things, the simplicity and that, like the things about it that were really simple back then. I was so so funny. I was just at Red Rocks.
58:09
I did three nights at Red Rocks and like I woke up in the morning and I ordered a coffee and I signed art cards, you know, >> went to work.
58:20
>> It's just me in my hands and this coffee and then tonight I'm going to play a show and that's simple and I know how to do it >> and it felt so good.
58:26
It made me want to get back on the road in ways that like I have not wanted to get back on the road like that in a really long time. >> Yeah.
58:33
I haven't seen a laminate around your neck that says world tour for a long time. >> I feel off the road.
58:37
I feel out of practice, like I'm going to have to rediscover it and get in shape. And I I want that. I want that now. Yeah. I'm ready.
58:45
I want to do this version of myself on stage and see what that actually looks and feels like.
58:50
And I want to play this music.
58:52
God, I want to play this music so bad.
58:55
>> What song do you want to play the most?
58:56
And let's put Church and State to one side cuz that obviously is going to take off into outer space.
59:00
>> Oh, well, I did that one.
59:00
I did that one at Red Rocks and I fought tears.
59:02
at Red Rocks and I fought tears. I fought tears so hard when I'm reading the >> the Thomas Jefferson's connotation on the first amendment >> and I'm talking about the separation of church and state and everybody slowly
59:15
stands up like their bodies like they're brought to their feet >> because the power of those words and the and the power of the first amendment and it's like you're yelling and you're angry but you are fighting tears like it is like big tears big lump right here and I loved how that felt. So, church
59:30
So, church and state is a is a big one.
59:32
Human though, I want to do some whailing.
59:35
I wanna like I just want to do the the Bono.
59:41
Like, I want to go full Bono.
59:43
>> Um, but then, you know, moments like taking you without me and connecting it to the mother and making that a medley, a chronological medley of parenting. >> Oh, you're in it. >> I'm in it, dude. Like, I'm feeling this.
59:56
I'm feeling this >> tour. Yeah, you're in it.
59:57
>> tour. Yeah, you're in it. I always think that must be the most beautiful places if you're willing and able and you want to go out and you want to bring the music to the people and you're like okay from the age of whatever you know 40 to 42 or whatever age it's going to be I'm
1:00:10
dedicating myself to this communal experience then you get to create it you get to do the music >> direction of it and put it all together that's got to be almost the most fun part away from the pressure of writing the songs and delivering all the songs >> it's so fun that alchemy of like the rehearsal leading up to the gigs. That's That's huge.
1:00:30
When you're flipping through the sound banks on the keyboard, you're >> figuring it out. >> Yeah.
1:00:34
And you're like, "That's the sound, you know, and you're messing with the amps and you're trying different guitars and you're like, well, should I walk the stage this way or should I walk the stage this way?"
1:00:42
You know, all these things as that like go into the sort of the batch, you know, the alchemy of the show.
1:00:49
It's like I love that And I and I like I like having fans come and watch that happen, too. Yeah.
1:00:54
It's almost like a one of the sports teams, you know, have like the spring time time like >> Yeah. Yeah. Training.
1:00:59
>> Training like having people come and watch what the work you put into it and the time and effort that you put into that is like a huge part of the deal for me.
1:01:08
>> How's your spirit now you finished this record?
1:01:09
What have you what do you think you learned about yourself returning to yourself if only to realize that you're totally fine being in service to others as well as living your life?
1:01:20
>> I am comfortable with that now.
1:01:20
I think I'm comfortable with that as long as I'm not tricking myself into believing that I'm essential to anyone else.
1:01:30
>> But is that isn't that the narcissism or the delusion that is required in order to step out on a stage and walk a certain way? >> I don't know. I hope not.
1:01:36
Like what if I get on stage and the magic's gone?
1:01:40
>> That's what I'm saying.
1:01:40
If you untangle it so much, then you walk out, it's like, wait, I'm totally faking this Like I'm not essential to anybody. Sorry, guys.
1:01:46
Existential crisis shows over. Get your money back. >> Yeah.
1:01:50
Better get better at fishing.
1:01:50
But it is, isn't that the balance?
1:01:52
The balance between searching within or what really matters to you, but also realizing that some of this is invented and some of this should be I don't ever feel like David Bowie ever truly untangled his identity when he was being David Bowie. Do you know what I mean?
1:02:08
>> Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
1:02:09
after Silent Days, you know, and like when I kind of like doubled down and like super immersed in the in Joany's recovery and work, I was like, I need to kill Ziggy Stardust.
1:02:21
I need to kill Ziggy Start.
1:02:23
I need to get rid of the swoop in the hair.
1:02:24
I need I know more sparkly Suits.
1:02:28
I got to kill Ziggy Stardust.
1:02:28
I don't It was great, but like I I need to do something else. I don't even know what.
1:02:34
I'm just like crawling out of my skin with just the discomfort of the character >> of of that.
1:02:39
And so the David Bowie thing, it's really interesting, you know, because he did find ways to um reinvent him and reinvent himself as an artist over and over and over again.
1:02:50
artist over and over and over again. and he produced other artists and he you know um disappeared into character uh several times and both in the way he looked and you know he always had a Shakespearean presence on stage and a big voice and a grandiosity but then he could also break your heart and then
1:03:07
here I am thinking like I want to kill Ziggy Stardust and then I get in the studio with Andrew and he's like we need to make a David Bowie album and I was just like no and then he's like okay uh >> Fleetwood Mac and then he was like >> he was just Tom Petty you know he was just trying to like figure me out. And I
1:03:21
And I was like, dude, I don't I have not figured me out, so I don't know.
1:03:26
Furthermore, I have no songs.
1:03:26
I had no songs, you know?
1:03:29
And they kept trying to write riffs and like I kept trying to write to their riffs and it was everything was just coming out wrong.
1:03:35
I just couldn't get anything right until I really honed in.
1:03:46
That sounds really counter intuitive for me to say this, but until I like really honed in on myself in a brand new way, you know, and I even, you know, I told the twins, I'm like, you guys might sit here all day.
1:03:58
You may never touch an instrument today or tomorrow or the next day, and I don't know actually if we're going to write this song together.
1:04:03
This might just be me this time, you know?
1:04:07
>> And there's like what can you say about them?
1:04:11
They are like a masterclass in self assuredness and support.
1:04:18
>> Well, they love you >> as a foundation. F and I love them.
1:04:21
>> It ain't just about like, yeah, we jam out and we write great songs and we live a great life.
1:04:24
It's like you all live close to each other and you've built a family and >> Yeah.
1:04:29
>> If you never wrote another song again, >> nothing's going to change there.
1:04:33
>> No, nothing could change that. You're right.
1:04:35
And some of the albums have been really twin focused.
1:04:37
Like we've had really twinny albums before.
1:04:38
We've had albums where like I've gone days without going into the studio and they're just cooking in there, you know, and then I show up and sing, but this was not that album.
1:04:48
This was really a mecentric album, you know, and they're just thrilled with it.
1:04:52
They think it's our best album. >> And you? >> I think so. I think so.
1:04:56
And even if it's not, I've never cared less.
1:04:59
I care I care what people think, but not enough to change one note or word on this album. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you.
1:05:09
That's like an old That's a whole new place right there. That's very new.
1:05:14
>> There's a song at the end of the album which uh as you listen to it through the for the first time and people will listen to it start to finish as it is designed, you you'll realize as you go as you get closer and closer that you're coming to this this goodbye both literally in writing and also the end of the record.
1:05:30
And um it's almost a driving reminder that life is precious, you know, and that and that we need to acknowledge goodbye way sooner than we really do is what I took from it. >> Yeah.
1:05:40
So we can start living, >> right?
1:05:42
>> Like if we know that this it >> is finite. >> Yeah. >> How was it to write?
1:05:46
>> It was really beautiful, really cathartic.
1:05:48
It was like writing a memoir that was three and a half minutes long. Um >> I don't know.
1:05:52
I think what it comes down to is having a lot of old friends.
1:05:54
And it's like there's something about being able to sort of see the end of the road that makes it so that you can settle into the middle of it a little bit easier.
1:06:04
And you know, my my grandpa used to say, "Don't sweat the small stuff."
1:06:09
And >> not everybody's like us.
1:06:10
And he had all these little sayings and these little anecdotes that were morsels of like life wisdom that I'm only really just starting to understand. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:20
And I know that life being a long goodbye is like a sad thing, but like really what I'm saying in the song is I'm kind of like going through these chapters of life, like a chapter of discovery, a chapter of chaos and self-destruction, a chapter of longsuffering and long-standing love and the kind that you fight for every day.
1:06:38
And then I am lightening it at the end in a way that I keep trying to do on this album where I'm saying all of these things are true.
1:06:49
All these things are heavy.
1:06:49
They're not insurmountable, but they feel that way when you're standing in front of a mountain.
1:06:54
Um, but just know that anything could change.
1:06:58
>> Anything could change at any moment.
1:07:00
>> So, whatever it is, let it go. Keep it light. Let it snow.
1:07:03
Let the wind blow all night.
1:07:05
It's only life after all.
1:07:08
>> You know, we're only human. >> Beautiful writing.
1:07:10
>> And it's it's like life is serious and there's a lot in life to struggle against and we need that friction. >> Yeah.
1:07:17
in these meat suits, but like at the end of the day, we have to find a way to be here with each other and be happy and know that it ends. >> It ends. It all comes to an end.
1:07:28
Has being around people at the other end of their life, getting to work with artists who've lived some more life at this point. >> Yeah.
1:07:36
>> Bring you in so close.
1:07:38
>> Did it did it change the way that you felt when you were making this record in terms of >> just the overarching kind of uh importance of it?
1:07:44
Like this is a very important album for right now, but it's just another step in many steps you will take across your life, right?
1:07:50
Creating and expressing yourself. >> Yeah.
1:07:53
I think being with and working with the older artists that, you know, you're alluding to and referring to, >> it made me want to fight for the second half of my life. >> Yeah. >> In a different way. >> Yeah.
1:08:05
>> It made me want to fight to be my age. [Music]