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There's very little correlation between how much money you have in the level of happiness past the basics of assistance level.
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The element that there's the highest correlation with is an element of community, who you're with.
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So, it's this meaningful work, are you on a mission, and meaningful relationships through a life arc that evolves.
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So, that's it my definition of of success is more like evolving well and contributing to evolution.
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Hello everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
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Thank you so much for being a part of this community.
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Thank you for committing to your growth, to your self-development, taking out the valuable time of your lives to use it to become better, to grow, and to learn.
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You could be doing anything in the world right now, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're commuting, or whether you're at work and trying to learn more.
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Thank you for making this commitment to wisdom and to knowledge.
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And you know that my commitment to you on this podcast is to introduce you to the people, the ideas, the messages that can transform your work, life, and love.
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And today's guest is going to do just that.
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I'm so excited personally.
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This has been someone that I've been wanting to bring to you on the podcast for a long time, so I'm going to have to contain my excitement as well.
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But, he's an American billionaire investor, hedge fund manager, and philanthropist, and the author of this incredible book called Principles.
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Now, I read this book when it first came out, and there were so many incredible insights of wisdom in there, and today I get to sit down with the one and only Ray Dalio.
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Ray, thank you so much for being here.
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Oh, like I don't deserve all that, but back at you. Thank you. No, you're very kind.
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You're very kind, and I'm so grateful to have this opportunity with you because I truly believe that I'm so grateful.
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You said on the phone when we were speaking that there are these different stages of life, and I'm I'm grateful that you're at the stage of your life where you are sharing everything you've learned with all of us because I think there's such a wealth of knowledge that we all have to gain from.
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So, thank you from me and everyone else who's listening and watching for taking this next stage in your life.
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Well, it's a treat and a responsibility, so I'm happy to do it.
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Thank you for helping me. Absolutely. Absolutely.
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So, today I want to dive into life and work and many different areas that you speak about in your incredible book Principles.
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And the first thing I want to dive into is these stages of life you speak about because when you said that to me on the phone the other day, it really resonated.
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Why don't you guide the audience through those different stages and phases and how you see them changing our life?
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Well, I think there are to simplify, there are three stages in your life.
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The first stage in your life is when you're learning and you're dependent on others.
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Go to school, come out, graduate from school.
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It's very different from the second phase of your life where you're working, others are dependent on you and you're trying to be successful.
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And that's uh what larger your audience is uh in in that early stages.
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So, I'm so excited to speak to them.
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And that whole arc is totally different.
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Like on the first arc, first part of the life, you know, you pretty much follow a track.
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You know, what schools, parents taking care of you, whatever it is and then you What are you What decisions do you make?
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You don't really make any decisions.
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You make, you know, okay, what college do you go to if you go to college?
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Then you go to the college and you what major do you have?
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And then you come out to this world, the second stage, in which really the whole thing is wide open to you, particularly if you don't go stay on a track.
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And you realize that there's no instruction manual and you can go anywhere and you could do anything.
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And then it's a very different phase.
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It's a more difficult phase.
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And that second phase then has an arc to it and then um somewhere in the vicinity of your last phase, um that's the phase where you're free to live and free to die.
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And your preferences change. You change.
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Your relationships with others change.
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So, that's the life arc that I'm referring to.
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And so, I'm in the transition from the end of my second phase to the beginning of my third phase.
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And at that phase, I just want to pass along what I've learned to help people who are early in their second phase. Yeah, absolutely.
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And you're so right that that is the majority of people that are listening and watching right now.
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And for me, you brought something up really interesting there.
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One of the biggest things is we become paralyzed by choice and decisions.
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Because so much of that early phase is where things were decided for us, where choices were made for us.
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And I often feel we bring that mindset to the second phase, where we're still looking for someone else to help tell us what to do and what decision to make and what's the right thing to do.
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How have you seen through your experiences, how have you dealt with choice and decision as that phase of life changes?
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Well, I think first of all, one has to know their nature.
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Um you might have to discover it.
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But your nature means do you have a sense of adventure? Do you seek security?
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Are you an extrovert, an introvert, those types of things?
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So, personal discovery is important.
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Um I think that uh who you're with and where you are is more important than what you do.
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Cuz in the early phase of that second phase, it's total discovery.
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So, it's experimentation.
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You know, you went to India for 3 years, right?
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And and that But if you have that sense of adventure, to let go, you can discover. That's your opportunity.
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But discover yourself as well as to discover what the choices are like.
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And then as you move later into that, you'll feel the pulls.
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Um and to feel never trapped.
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We were talking just before we began that so many people say um you know I can't be that way because I my job won't allow it, uh which is a silly concept because you have the freedom of those choices even in when you have constraining uh situations.
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So, I think uh that's the life arc.
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Enjoy this wide-open choice.
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You can be anywhere in the world.
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You can do almost anything.
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Let go, experiment, and then move on. Absolutely.
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And did you feel that same freedom when you started as well?
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Or do you feel it's changed now?
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Do you think there's In my case it it it In my case um Okay.
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In my case uh when I was 12, I got hooked on trading markets. So, I I loved that game.
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So, I discovered it at early.
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And then I And then I wanted to But I had this sense of adventure.
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I was very I discovered when I went to work at a company that uh working at a company was not my thing. I got fired. I punched my boss.
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I I mean I So, and I really then learned the freedom.
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Um not I didn't have any idea that I was setting up a company.
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I just sort of said I can do these things. Probably like you.
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You discovered, "Okay, I could do those things."
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And then one thing leads to another, and then you know uh you build, and I always like uh the variety.
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So, I'm My nature is macro, so I like going all over the world, all different cultures, understanding how the world works.
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And so, I found something that uh clicked through that experimentation.
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Yeah, and I love But then there is ups and downs, right? Lots of ups and downs.
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So, we need to talk about failure.
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Uh you know, how great failure is.
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Yeah, let's let's do that because I think when I'm hearing you say that, it's so refreshing.
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Because when I hear you saying, "Yeah, I had to figure it out and I was experimenting and testing and I didn't even know what I was building."
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I love hearing that because that's what my experience so far has been, too.
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As opposed to like a very rigid, strategic You know, not that there isn't strategy, of course there is, but something very rigid and planned.
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There is a lot of experimentation in that growth where failure is natural. Yeah.
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Uh my son uh in 2014 gave me a book Joseph Campbell and it was called Hero with a Thousand Faces and it refers to the hero's journey.
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And this is like at the end of my experience.
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And I follow found that that's very, very true.
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And so there's this cycle.
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So a certain type of personality wants a taste for adventure.
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You go out and have the adventure.
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And then there are these ups and downs and then you crash. You will have a failure.
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If you're adventurous and you're pushing the limits, you will have a failure.
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And that failure is a can be a transformative experience.
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I have an expression that pain plus reflection equals progress.
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So they call it the bed the abyss. And change.
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The learning of humility to maintain your aggressiveness, your audacity and to simultaneously learn humility. And that happened to me.
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I was So I you described it.
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I was uh I graduated from school.
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I two years I worked on Wall Street for two years.
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I got fired from my job and two years later I'm running my little company.
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Something like 7, 8 years after that.
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Um I made terrible mistakes in the markets.
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Um I crashed and I lost everything.
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And I was so broke that I had to borrow $4,000 from my dad to help pay for my family expenses.
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And it was public publicly because I was on Wall Street Week and I made all those mistakes.
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And that was one of the most painful Pain can be great because it changed my whole perspective to decision-making.
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As I'm saying, it gave me the humility I needed to operate with my audacity.
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In other words, to simultaneously be bold and aggressive and also to know that I could be careful.
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You know, I I learned that if you're doing risky things, anybody who does risky things, tightrope walk across buildings or whatever, it's that they also know how to deal with the risks well.
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So, how to be bold and then to learn from the failures.
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And it changed my whole approach to failure.
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I began to think of failures like puzzles that if I could solve the puzzle, I'd get a gem.
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And the puzzle was, what would I do differently in the future?
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And the gem I would get would be a principle of how I would deal with the future differently.
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So, understanding that if you press the limits, you're going to fail and it's okay.
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And life is a long journey.
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Failure has a a tone to it that it sounds like it's an end.
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No, it's part of that process of learning and then making that great advance.
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But the humility combined with the audacity was helpful.
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Because then I would go to try to find the smartest people I could find who disagreed with me.
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That independent thinking.
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And I would also know how to deal with my risks better.
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So, I kept my upside without losing my downside.
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So, that's failure and pain.
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If you look at the second-order effects, if you make the most of them, they're the most valuable. Absolutely.
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And I love that balance that you've just spoke about or that bringing of the two together of humility and audacity.
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I've never heard it like that before and I I really value that because I can see why humility is so powerful but not that that humility stops you from having that boldness and that courage.
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And almost like how have you maintained that because I'm guessing that being at rock bottom, like having to borrow $4,000 can be very painful.
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And then when you're experimenting again and going on your next adventure, you've got to be okay with the fact that that could happen again?
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Or was that humility holding that back having that happen again?
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I think the tightrope walker crossing the building is is is that is the example, right? Yes.
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You you fall and you fall hard.
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Now, some people won't get on the tightrope again. Yeah.
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Some people will get on the tightrope again. Yes.
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And then they think, "How do I do that?"
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So, how do I be bold Mhm.
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and aggressive and I pull it off and it's the same way, right? Mhm.
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You start to think, "Well, maybe I do this or that differently and I practice more."
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It's that combination of the caution and practice that allows you to take it to the limits that you never would have been able to take it to before, Mhm. right? Mhm. I learned that.
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Once I learned that, everything changed because I also would know how to take the hits.
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In other words, I don't mind getting banged, but I don't want to get knocked out of the game. Yes.
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So, the willingness to get banged but not knocked out of the game is a big part of that. Absolutely.
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Yeah, like a good fighter, right?
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Like you just giving that analogy for me, it's like sometimes a boxer or a fighter needs to know which punches to take in order be able to drop a bigger punch.
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Uh that's that's part of the game and that's what you were saying about solving a puzzle.
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I love that analogy because I think if we see everything as puzzles that there's a way of figuring it out, right?
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You know there's an answer to a puzzle.
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Yes, So think the key is to think of reality as your given. Reality is reality.
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And think of it as working like a machine.
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There are cause-effect relationships that make the realities around you.
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Okay, now, if you go above yourself and you look at that how does that machine work?
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And then how do I interact with that machine to get what I want?
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And you do that with an equanimity.
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Meditation also helped me a lot. Yes.
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I I learned to meditate very many years ago.
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And if you if you have equanimity and you look at it above and you look at with curiosity and you say, "Oh, I must not be interacting well with that my reality and how do I change it and how does it work?"
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It's a very powerful way of approaching life. Absolutely.
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And that definition of equanimity, too, equanimity means to deal with good and bad. Yeah.
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And and so how have you I'd love to know how have you celebrated and embraced successes in your life, too?
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We just spoke about failure.
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I'm intrigued to know how someone like yourself deals with success.
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Well, I think my approach my thinking about success has evolved over a period of time.
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I I thought about success I today think about success differently.
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It's like the way I thought about it originally when I you know, you have this failure.
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I thought that it's like there's a jungle out there.
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I want to have the great greatest life possible.
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But in order to be successful, I can I have to cross this dangerous jungle.
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Now I could stay on the one side of the jungle and have a boring, safe life, but unless I deal with the risks, risks and return go together and it's like going into this jungle. So what would I choose?
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Would I choose to go into the jungle and cross the jungle and have the greatest life possible, but I might get bad things might happen.
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And then I started to think when I went into that jungle.
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I Of course, I had to cross the jungle, but I started to realize how to cross the jungle most importantly with people who could see things differently than I could on the mission with me.
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And so, that and we would protect each other in that jungle.
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And that's what it was like.
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So, life is a lot like that.
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Who are you in the jungle with?
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And they might see things differently from you.
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And then you protect each other and you go through.
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And the thing that I discovered was that as I had these successes and failures and much more successes than failures, I began to realize that I didn't care as much about the success as I cared about the journey. Okay?
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In other words, I didn't want to get out of the jungle.
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I didn't want to get to the other side.
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Because it might be like, I don't know, climbing mountains or doing whatever you realize there's a new peak and there's a new level of success.
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And they won't keep you happy. Okay?
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You you don't sit there you want to go on.
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And and it is the ups and downs of that journey and the striving into becoming better that becomes the new definition of success.
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And so, I started to see my life in this life arc way.
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With my preferences changing.
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Because your preferences naturally change.
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As one has kids and those they as they start to think.
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I mean, everybody that you're dealing with is going through in the life arc.
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If you think about who are the people you love.
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What is your relationship with your parents?
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What are your relationship do you have children?
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Who are they will have a life arc.
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And as you go through that life arc and you see those things changing, then you start to realize that operating consistent with that life arc is and on that journey to evolve well is what success is. Mhm. It's not Yes. the money.
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It's like money loses its marginal utility very quickly, right?
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If you studies of happiness um there's a Harvard professor, many professors I suppose they tell you the same thing in terms of studying happiness around the world.
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There's very little correlation between how much money you have and the level of happiness past the basics of assistance level.
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The element that there's the highest correlation with is an element of community, who you're with.
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So it's this meaningful work, are you on a mission and meaningful relationships through a life arc that evolves.
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So that's it my definition of an of success is more like evolving well and contributing to evolution.
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Yeah, absolutely and I couldn't agree more and those stand so true for my monk training too.
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So hearing them from you in a different context is so encouraging to hear and for anyone who's watching or listening right now, please make sure that as Ray is speaking you're visualizing his beautiful analogies because as I'm sitting here listening to you, I'm visualizing being in the forest.
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I'm visualizing being around people.
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I'm looking at the people in my life and seeing them as different aspects and Ray paints such a beautiful picture as he speaks.
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So if you're listening right now, anytime he shares an analogy or story, put yourself in that place because it's going to help you go that deeper.
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And and I think you do a brilliant job of that Ray and some of your videos I saw as well, the animations really bring that to life.
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So I I can see them in my mind.
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Tell us about how you've been so careful about curating and constructing that community for yourself.
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You said that you found people in the woods who could see what you couldn't see and you protected each other, which I love.
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was it was an evolutionary process, you know?
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Um so you're on a mission you're on a mission. Yes.
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And you have people who are on the mission with you. Yes.
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And then you start to um I started to find um what do I want in those people and what should the relationship be?
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And I I first just picked people I liked.
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And I didn't realize how we see things differently, how we process things so differently.
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Our minds work so differently.
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Um and so when you start to see let's say there's a big picture thinker, there's a detail thinker.
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And we all become frustrated with the other person because they like the big picture says, "Why are you so hung up with those details?
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Let's go to the big picture."
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And the detail thinker thinks um "You've got your head in the clouds.
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You got to come down to the nuts and bolts." And they're both right.
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And they start to realize that you need each other.
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You start to need the different ways of thinking.
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So I would convey that that many people see things very differently.
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And how do you deal with those differences in seeing?
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Um they're disagreements.
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How do you deal with disagreements?
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My approach and I learned is whenever you're in a disagreement and you don't know how to deal with it well cuz it's not going well, pause.
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And then step above the disagreement together and then say uh what are the protocols for us to disagree well?
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How should we do this thing?
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Always go to the higher level and think how should you do that thing?
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And so you get protocols.
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I've developed these protocols like a protocol would be like if we're not being able to communicate well together, a standard protocol is let's mutually agree on someone who will help moderate this conversation and then we'll work things through or talking.
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Um how do I repeat what you're saying so that I I'm conveying that I understand.
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And you start to develop those types of protocols and start to develop the appreciations of people seeing things differently.
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You discover also differences in values.
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Oh, differences in the more the most core principles of how people should be with each other.
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In my case, it was so essential that we're going to be completely radically truthful and radically transparent with each other, right?
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Um and that was my discovery. Um and it's difficult.
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But I've also learned that uh many cases the difficult things are only the first order consequences. They're difficult.
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The second order consequences is they're rewarding.
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And so by being able to have that radical truthfulness and that transparency to demonstrate that there's no spin was a a discovery.
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So there's an evolutionary arc.
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I would say um in my culture in my building a an organization, a community that was a beneficial I'll describe it in in one sentence. Long sentence.
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It's an idea meritocracy.
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In other words, it's a place where the best ideas win out regardless of hierarchy.
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So an idea meritocracy and with the goal in which the goals are meaningful work and meaningful relationships.
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Meaningful work to be on a mission together.
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And meaningful relationships is an equal importance of that.
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And that produces this tough love. So I'll I'll repeat it.
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I'm saying it too many words.
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So it's an idea meritocracy in which the goals are meaningful work and meaningful relationships through radical truthfulness and radical transparency.
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Anyway, that was my That's what worked for me. That's incredible.
22:58
And I guess all of these tools you were mentioning earlier about these protocols are going to consistently realign everyone with that.
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Because as we start wearing away and you start seeing lack of transparency or lack of truthfulness or lack of meaning and mission, you're constantly having to realign everyone. Right.
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Uh that true Let's talk about that radical truthfulness and radical transparency.
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If you If you can achieve it, there's no confusion. Mhm.
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Because if we're really truthful, Mhm.
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we're taking all those hidden agendas and all those other things and we're not confused.
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We're putting them on the table. Yes.
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And if you understand the art of thoughtful disagreement, how to disagree well, so that you can then learn from each other or get past your disagreement in an idea meritocratic way, um it is incredibly powerful.
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And the we're not taught that.
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We're not taught some of these things.
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We're not taught the value of failure. Definitely not.
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We're not taught um We're taught to be right, to be attached to our views of being right. Yeah. You can't learn No.
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if you're attached to being right because you think it's embarrassing cuz you don't know.
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So, that notion of thoughtful disagreement because if there's disagreement, somebody must be wrong.
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And how do you know that wrong person isn't you? Mhm.
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So, these are the things that if you have thoughtful disagreement, radical truthfulness, radical transparency, you build trust and effectiveness. Yeah.
24:39
And that really sounds like it requires the pulverizing of the ego.
24:44
Like that to me sounds like we really have to crush and break down this ego because our ego is what's we're confronted with a believing I'm right, I'm going to win, right?
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Whenever you're in a disagreement and and handle it badly, it's you think it's win or loss. That right.
24:58
I think the greatest tragedy of mankind Mhm.
25:00
Big statement, the greatest tragedy of mankind. Like what?
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The greatest tragedy of mankind cuz it's so much it stands in the way of so many people making decisions well and operating well with each other is being is holding an opinion in your head that's wrong.
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And it's such a tragedy meaning it's so easily fixed. So true.
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But all you have to do is put it out there and stress test it and say I might be wrong.
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And how do I stress test it?
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And by stress testing it you raise your probabilities of being right.
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So I think the education system rewards being right.
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So many things reward that being right that stands in the way of taking in all that's out there to really help you be right. Mhm.
25:50
I think that's such a powerful point. I'm just nodding away.
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If you're only listening then I'm nodding away because when you say that I think that's so true that all of our conditioned patterns are about being right.
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It's never been to understand things from different angles or perspectives which is what reality is much more of than being right or wrong or black or white.
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And so much of our patterns in our mind are always win or loss, right or wrong, one or two.
26:16
There's rarely this cohesive synergy that that you're speaking about that actually takes a lot more work to get to.
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The greater whatever success I've had in life has had more much more to do with my knowing how to deal with my not knowing Mhm.
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than anything that I know.
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Because what I don't know is vastly greater.
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Think about all the experts that you can turn to and all the perspectives that you can get and how much you can learn by being what's being out there.
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And that maximizes and it's a kick. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
26:50
One of the things you other thing you which we've already dived into today, you called your book Principles and I thought that that was quite a counterculture way of doing it in a good way.
27:02
In a in a in a And the reason I say that is today so much of the language around business and work or entrepreneurship is around doing. It's around having. It's around grinding.
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It's you know, these are the the terms and the language that's used around business.
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Whereas you go back and you talk about principles.
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And on the phone when we were speaking, you were talking about this differentiation between doing and then living a principled life.
27:23
Just explain that to us and why you believe we have to start with principles.
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Um I'm going to um start by explaining how I learned it Yes, please.
27:34
and what principled thinking is and how it's different from other types of normal thinking most what most people do, right?
27:42
Um And there's also a suggestion I'd like to pass along to uh those who are listening.
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Um What I found was uh that whenever I would make an important decision, I would write down my criteria for making that decision.
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Because that situation would come across along again. So I could be clear.
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It helped me clarify my thinking.
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And when the next time it came along, I would start to see how to deal with that and I could refine my principles.
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So the book is a compendium of these principles that I wrote over 25 years on that situation.
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It changed my way of thinking and it also changed my way of interacting.
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Because then I would see everything as another one of those. Mhm.
28:31
Rather than be in the blizzard of these bits and pieces of things coming at me, I would start to think, "Oh, it's one of those."
28:41
And I would then operate as what was my principle.
28:44
And those principles became like um in uh internalized.
28:47
So, think of it almost like um a batter um batting against a pitcher who sometimes throws curveballs, sometimes throws fastballs, sometimes throws sliders.
29:02
And if you do that over a period of time, you begin to learn, oh, that's a fastball.
29:07
And then you start to think, okay, the fastball, I operate this.
29:09
And you start to internalize.
29:12
And you become better and better, and life becomes simpler for you.
29:16
Because you're not seeing those millions of bits and pieces.
29:18
You're seeing it out as another one of those, and you have that instinctual uh ability that allows you to then make that decision and operate that way.
29:28
And then you can communicate with people on principle levels thinking.
29:33
You know, um it's particularly important because I would say the decline of religion the decline uh In other words, even your values.
29:47
You have to think, what is your religion?
29:50
If you chose a religion, and it's not a preconditioned religion, what are your values?
29:55
What are your principles?
29:57
How do you think life really works?
30:00
And you're making choices for yourself.
30:03
That is the form of those principles.
30:05
So, when you start to think about those, and you're clear about those, and you can communicate with others, you can see whether your principles are aligned with others or not.
30:14
Because they they you'll have If you don't get along with somebody, and those irreconcilable differences are due to the fact that there are deep differences in principles, not differences in interpretations of things and so on.
30:28
It's like any great relationship.
30:30
There'll be arguments along the way, but it is those core beliefs.
30:32
And by being clear about them, to clear to yourself and clear to others, it's very powerful. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
30:42
It just makes it so much more simpler to navigate.
30:44
Because you're so right that when you don't have that clarity, all you're being attacked with is so much noise.
30:50
And there's just so many millions of different pieces of noise that are coming at you that you haven't filtered, you haven't clarified, you haven't carefully selected.
30:57
And that's why we feel so overwhelmed today.
30:59
We're drowning in all of that noise. And what for? Exactly. Where are you going? Mhm. What for?
31:08
What are you seeking to fulfill? What is it in you?
31:15
Yeah, and and I think that this is where I I'd recommend everyone who's listening or watching right now.
31:19
I'd love for you to take a moment to do that exercise in your own time that Ray just laid out of really figuring out what are your criteria behind decisions, why you're making those decisions, what's pushing you towards them.
31:30
For me as well, whenever I have a number of options, what I do is I write down all my options and choices I have, and I write down on top of them why I would take them.
31:37
And often my why for something would be just pride or ego, and often above one of them it would be love and depth and values.
31:45
Well, here's the exercise you're talking about the writing down. Yes. Okay.
31:50
I'm saying the writing down.
31:50
I recommend to your listeners Please. write them down. Okay?
31:54
Do your reflections, and then you write them down. It helps It clarifies.
32:00
The other thing that happens is I think of the mind as being there almost two yous in you. Mhm.
32:09
There is a conscious logical you, Mhm.
32:12
and there's a subliminal emotional you Yes.
32:16
that you don't understand.
32:19
That was Freud's great discovery.
32:20
That there is a part of your brain that is really controlling you, but because it's not conscious to you, you don't know it's there and it's controlling you. Mhm.
32:29
And the key, I think, is to align those things.
32:32
Like there's intuition, or there's those emotions.
32:37
And when when they come up and you're seeing yourself doing things, if you can reflect on yourself and align your subliminal with your cerebral, you it it it helps you because that you have a double check.
32:52
Um that emotional thing, like maybe it's an intuition.
32:55
Well, maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong.
33:00
So, respect it, it's coming up, but look at it with that logical.
33:03
And when you achieve that alignment, writing helps you do that. Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
33:10
And if you if you're sitting there going, "I'm not a writer." First, try.
33:13
And if after trying, if you still feel you're not a writer, voice note yourself.
33:15
Speak it out to yourself and hear yourself back.
33:17
Because when you hear, because you're used to listening to other people, you'll also be able to start listening to your subconscious self.
33:24
And that's going to help you really try and bring that alignment and clarity together.
33:27
And then you start to see that there's a a limited number, maybe a few hundred, maybe a couple hundred circumstances, or whatever.
33:36
You're going to start to see everything happens over and over again.
33:37
You're going to understand yourself better. Who it's very wonderful. Absolutely. I love that.
33:45
And one of these principles you talk about this scale of savoring the experience, savoring life, and then making an impact.
33:52
And I wanted to know how you reconcile the two and and how you've seen them Well, I I I I think the big choice in life, there are a lot of big choices in life, but is um accomplishment versus savoring life. Uh okay.
34:08
So, you know, savoring life is uh smell the roses.
34:13
And what a beautiful day, or that moment, make sure you uh time with the people that you love, and all of that.
34:25
And then there's the other, which is accomplishment and impact, right?
34:31
So, there is those kinds of choices.
34:33
And you have to discover yourself, well, where are you and how do you deal with those types of things?
34:39
I think that the most effective is where they align. Right. Okay?
34:43
That's what That's That's I think the key. Right.
34:48
Like to to make your work your passion one in the same, right? That kind of thing. Yes.
34:54
So, um that That's That's I think that's the best. Okay?
34:58
Your accomplishment If you're passionate and then you can maybe have those things align.
35:03
But that's that's the choice in life, right?
35:05
And you could see that in different cultures. Yes.
35:10
Yeah, and today we see a lot of Today with all of the generations that we're in and seeing in work right now, there's a desire to have it all.
35:18
There's a desire to have great pay, a great job that's meaningful, and have lots of time off to go on holiday, and be able to you know, go out on a Friday night and have a good time.
35:31
And I feel like this desire to have everything is quite a challenge because then you start striving to have all of these different parts. Go on. Yeah.
35:41
That's um That's the what the second phase of the life is like.
35:44
First phase of the life is you know, you learn and really it's generally a lot of fun.
35:52
And also by the way, you think you can conquer the universe.
35:53
And it's Then you come to this other phase where it's all open and so on.
35:59
And what you find out is there are too many things to do.
36:02
You don't have enough time. Okay?
36:05
You don't have enough time for each one of those things.
36:10
And so, the question is, how do you deal with that?
36:13
Well, there are two ways you can deal with it.
36:15
You can, of course, prioritize. And you need to do that.
36:21
But the real way, most importantly, is to know how to get the most out of an hour. Interesting.
36:32
words, you can put more life into life if you know how to get leverage and if you know how to be as as effective because if you get more out of each hour Mhm.
36:44
wow, then you it's like more life within those constrained number of hours. Absolutely. Absolutely.
36:50
I've I've always described that it for me as time management versus energy management.
36:54
And for me, if I can bring all my energy into 1 hour, that's more powerful than me having 10 hours Right. of half the energy.
37:01
And in but in addition, there are techniques. Right. Right? Um Love to hear some.
37:09
Well, um like for example I learned um leverage through other people. Mhm.
37:19
Um once you learn leverage in my particular case, of course, I built up to this.
37:24
Uh um I have about 30 direct reports.
37:28
And what it means is it it now this is after years of of doing I I had nothing, by the way.
37:35
Um but what I can do is uh and and with the good relationships and how that works basically, they can typically work for about 50 hours on something that I'm trying to accomplish for every hour that I deal with them. Right.
37:49
So, I get an enormous amount of leverage or I know how to prioritize. Mhm.
37:52
Or I know how to break my schedule knowing I mentioned meditation or other things to get myself the clarity. Yeah.
38:02
So, there are very many many techniques.
38:05
I wrote a bunch of them in the books and many other people have other techniques, too. Yeah.
38:10
But as you start to realize that you can have much more life by knowing these various types of techniques.
38:18
I'd love to know some of your uh and techniques around prioritization.
38:20
I think that's something that people are so challenged with right now.
38:24
What have been some of your best principles or rules around how to prioritize something?
38:29
Um I don't want um I don't want to give people my priorities, but I do want to give them the notion of to go above it. Mhm.
38:38
Okay, like the same rule if you're in a disagreement, you go above it.
38:42
Okay, so many people are in the blizzard Mhm.
38:45
of all these things coming at them and they're in it and they're trying to deal with every one of those.
38:50
Okay, so pause and step back and then start to think what are you really going after?
38:57
You have to look subliminally.
39:00
It may be deep-seated in your childhood.
39:03
It may be, but what is that pull, okay?
39:06
And that that becomes and then how do you apportion it? Um you do need a plan.
39:11
You you need some sort of uh self-discipline as you look down and you say, "Well, I'm going to spend dinners with my kids."
39:22
Or I'm going to do X Y Z uh in terms of those to-dos.
39:25
But at the highest level, you're saying, "What do I want? What are my choices?"
39:31
Because you have to realize and then what I find is um if you pause and you do that slowly over time, don't just try to do it in a minute, you can find that you can have a lot of your cake and eat it, too. Yeah. Right?
39:47
I used to take my kids on my business trips.
39:53
Um What a great education. No well.
39:53
W- I Some crazy I'm It's an example that sometimes you discover with time that you can have your cake and eat it, too, right? Yeah. So take the time. Mhm. Yeah, patience.
40:08
Patience is I think that there there's five steps to success. Mhm.
40:16
First is you have to know your goals.
40:17
You have to know what you're going after.
40:19
And that does require prioritization.
40:24
The second is on your way to your goals, you're going to encounter your problems. Mhm.
40:29
Your failures, your problems.
40:32
So that's step two, encounter them.
40:35
They're standing in your way.
40:37
Number three is you have to diagnose those to the root cause.
40:40
What is producing your problems? At the root. At the root cause.
40:46
And that may be that you or it may be those around you who are not good at things or whatever or you're doing something you need to do better. Mhm.
40:55
Or it may be that you're in the wrong place.
40:59
But you have to get at the root cause uh to do that diagnosis.
41:04
Once you know the specific thing that's standing in your way, that personal discovery process, you have to go to the fourth step and that fourth step is to design a way to get around them. Yeah.
41:16
If It may be, for example, that if you have a particular weakness, work with somebody who's strong where you're weak.
41:23
Or it may be uh change your job or whatever it is, but you've got to get around that specific thing that you've diagnosed as standing in your way.
41:30
And then when you have a design you have to do it.
41:35
A lot of people come up with designs, but they don't push through and do it.
41:38
And I think life is just the constant five-step process over and over and over again. Yeah.
41:45
Because if you're if you can do those five things, you will be successful.
41:49
You'll evolve fair quickly. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
41:52
And you add two methods or keys to succeeding, which you call flexibility and self-accountability.
41:58
Because within that within those five steps, there's going to need to be a bit of flexibility or a lot of flexibility and self-accountability.
42:06
And I love it you you spoke about this.
42:08
You said, "Don't blame bad outcomes on anyone but yourself.
42:12
Which is like huge self-accountability. Yeah.
42:15
I really do believe I'll give you a mindset.
42:17
I do believe that I can do anything.
42:22
And that it is just a matter of my character and my creativity.
42:27
So that it is a personal test of me.
42:27
It may be difficult and I have to be creative enough and maybe with the help of others and that is largely true. Really.
42:41
If you're creative enough with and you don't have to do it yourself, you can get the ideas from other people and then you are enough character in it to do it. Wow. Absolutely.
42:52
And I think And I think that's the biggest challenge that we try and do all on our own.
42:54
We think we have to be everything.
42:56
We think we have to be the face and the background and the side and and everything in between and actually collaboration, coming together with other people is so much more what has brought success in the world. Yes.
43:10
When you start to realize that actually you can't see it's like going from two dimensions to three dimensions or black and white to color that when you start to see things through others' eyes, you can see the world in a totally different, much richer way and you know how to navigate it.
43:31
It's a It's such a power, such a gift. Yeah. It's amazing. Thank you so much, Ray.
43:37
Ray, this has been such an incredible experience diving in with you.
43:40
Anyone who's listening and watching, I hope you've been taking notes.
43:42
I hope you stopped and did certain activities when Ray and I spoke about them.
43:46
And Ray, we finish every interview with a final five, which is our final five quick fire round, rapid fire round.
43:51
So these are answers that are one word to one sentence maximum.
43:53
So I'm going to start with the first one.
43:58
What's one trait you look for in a potential employee? Character. Character. Amazing. Okay, great. Number two.
44:07
What is one trait you possess that you believe you got to where you are today? One of your traits. Um, fear and humility.
44:18
Fear and acceptance of failing. Wow, I love that answer. That's awesome.
44:21
I was not expecting that. It's a great answer.
44:25
Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent now because I And a taste and a taste for and a and a and a taste for adventure because the joy of the adventure it makes the makes it all worthwhile.
44:40
And I've come to appreciate the pain. Yeah.
44:42
What's the best thing you've learned from this transition in your life where you're now passing it on?
44:47
What's something you've learned from the process of passing lessons on? That it's hard. And to let go. To let go of?
44:59
To uh to let go of caring while caring.
45:04
Yes, yes, that's such an important point. Absolutely.
45:06
Yeah, as a teacher, as a guide, as a coach, you can only facilitate growth, but you can't force it. Just let it Yes, yeah.
45:16
You got to give everyone the opportunity to let it out. Okay, number four.
45:17
What's one thing in stage three you're looking forward to the most, to the stage of life that you're in right now?
45:24
Well, as Joseph Campbell said, um to be free to live and free to die.
45:27
I think that you're in an arc Mhm.
45:30
in which um you gain freedom. Mhm. Total freedom. No obligation.
45:38
The greatest enjoy now is no obligation. Yeah. I'm free. Yeah. Amazing.
45:45
And to and and I and to watch others be successful without me. Mhm.
45:54
That is the greatest joy, to watch others to be successful without me.
45:56
I'm free and they are successful without me. Wow. Amazing.
46:01
Well, you wrote this book over a number of principles and the fifth and final question is what's a principle that you've learned this year or that you're currently trying to learn or learning or testing this year?
46:14
Well, this is my this is my transition year.
46:18
Um I guess what I've learned I've been so pleased to have the interactions with people who are learning.
46:27
Um I don't know if it's a principle that's not a principle, but it's an experience that the interactions that I'm having on social media, the conversations, so many nice people.
46:38
And the exchanges have just been so beautiful.
46:45
I think that was my main discovery as I'm also going through my evolutionary process of that I described.
46:52
Yeah, I absolutely love that. That's amazing.
46:54
Ray, you're absolutely incredible.
46:55
If anyone loved the conversation today, make sure you go and grab a copy of Principles by Ray Dalio if you haven't already.
47:01
If you have read the book, which I know many of you are very excited we're going to have Ray on the podcast, go ahead and follow him on social media and across all the other channels if you don't already.
47:11
Ray, is there a particular channel that you would prefer we want to go follow you on?
47:14
Is there or there's Facebook, there's Instagram, there's YouTube.
47:18
Go ahead and follow Ray across all the channels.
47:20
Thank you so much for listening.
47:22
Make sure you grab a copy of the book today.
47:23
We just literally scratched the surface of all the incredible principles that are I I'd like to add one thing. Sure, please.
47:29
I put the book and and also video case studies and everything in a free app.
47:35
So if So you don't have to buy a book. You can get the book.
47:39
It's on the iOS Apple Store.
47:42
It's a free download and it has videos know that. That's cool.
47:48
I didn't know that's awesome.
47:49
So the book is great if you like books, but you also have this other video which is a live you might like that.
47:55
That's awesome and there's so many great episodes that I've been watching on Ray's social channels as well that really break down and visualize these principles for you to check out.
48:04
Thank you so much for being a subscriber to On Purpose.
48:08
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48:12
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48:15
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48:21
Make sure you tag Ray and I in those messages and we can't wait to see you again next week. Thank you so much. Thanks, Ray. Thank you. Thank you so much. So grateful. Yeah, thank you.
48:31
Hope that was good for you. Thank you so much.
48:32
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48:38
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48:47
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