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It's a big statement.
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The greatest tragedy of mankind is that people hold opinions in their heads which are wrong that they could so easily stress test.
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But they're so attached to those opinions that might be wrong.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and well-being podcast in the world.
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Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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And I'm so grateful today because we don't do this often, but now and again, every uh few years, we end up having a guest that comes on twice.
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And this is one that I'm really, really excited about.
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Now, this guest who came on last year completely blew our minds.
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It was one of our most popular podcast downloaded last year.
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So, you're in for a real treat.
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And today's is even more practical, tactical, and useful for you.
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So, I know that you're going to get a lot of value from it.
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So, I want to get your pens out, your pads out.
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I want you to be taking notes and ready to learn from none other than Ray Dalio.
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In 1975, Ray Dalio founded an investment firm, Bridgewater Associates, out of his two-bedroom apartment in New York City.
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40 years later, Bridgewater has made more money for its clients than any other hedge fund in history and grown into the fifth most important private company in the United States, according to Fortune magazine.
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Ray himself has been named to Time magazine's list of the 100 most influential people in the world.
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He's the number one New York Times best-selling author of one of my favorite books, Principles.
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And today, we'll be talking about his new personal discovery tool, Principles You, which I cannot wait for you to try out.
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And we'll be putting the link for you to try it out in the caption.
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And it's built with the insights from his unbelievable career, and we'll also be talking about his new book, The Changing World Order, Why Nations Succeed and Fail.
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Ray, thank you so much for doing this.
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I'm so happy to be speaking with you again.
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Oh, I'm excited to be back.
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They're always good conversations, so let's do it.
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Yeah, last time we were together in New York City, and it's a different setup this time. I'm over in LA.
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I'm guessing you are in New York still. Is that right? I'm in Connecticut.
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Oh, you're in Connecticut. Okay, perfect. My home in Connecticut.
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My home in Connecticut. Absolutely beautiful, and today we're diving into this fascinating conversation that I'm really excited to have with you, because when you first brought this to my attention and your team brought it to my attention, and I remember emailing back
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and forth with your team, and I was just elated because I have found personal discovery tools and personality tests to be so foundational in so much of my career, and at times some of the ones that I've done groundbreaking for me, which have just helped me focus in on my true strengths and talents and skills. And now as I go on to the next stage in
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And now as I go on to the next stage in my career and entrepreneurship journey of hiring people and building my team.
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We're about 50 people across the world right now, and as that continues to develop, I'm so excited to use this tool for that reason, but I want to start off by asking you, what was the first tool you ever did, and and what did it teach you about yourself, or what did you learn about yourself?
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I'd say it was, I don't know, 20 25 years ago.
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Um, I was running the company, and I understood that people were different, and I got exposure at that time to Myers-Briggs, and I gave it to the top 150 managers.
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Uh, and I I So, we got the test written back.
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I read the results, and in many cases I couldn't believe that people actually thought the way that they were described that they think.
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And yet they they were asked to rate the the quality of the rating of them from one to five and 85% rated a four or a five.
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That said that that is me.
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So wow, and that prompted conversations. What are you like? What it what?
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And that changed everything. It had a big impact.
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Uh the reason was up until that point people who thought differently than each other often got frustrated with each other.
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You know, the big picture thinker would and dealing with the person who paid attention to details would get frustrated.
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They'd say, you know, what are you caught up in the details?
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And the detail person speaking with the big picture thinker would say, your head's in the clouds.
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You know, and what we began to realize when we started to correlate that data with job performance is that people excelled in in different types of jobs depending on what they needed what they were like and also we were able to put them together to work well together.
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They began to appreciate the differences, understand the differences and build from there. So that got me hooked.
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It was much more valuable than resumes.
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I'm not saying resumes aren't, but it was helpful for their development for and for us for placing them and I'd say that was about 20 or 25 years ago.
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Yeah, that's that's incredible and I love hearing that.
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It's it's been the same for me.
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I found that you know, as you dive into these understandings, you realize people communicate differently, people deal with conflict differently, people connect and create rapport differently and that's what these tools are so great at showing us that actually ideal teams and good teams have people of all different types of thinking.
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Absolutely, and then beyond that um well, like you took the test, other people took the test, and they understand now where they are in the population distribution, cuz they even when they understand what they how they think, often they don't fully understand it, but we even when they do, they don't know the weaknesses and how to deal with the weaknesses, and they don't know how to deal with each other.
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So, what we found is when we we we we can take a picture, uh we have diagrams that represent how somebody is in different dimensions, and when we overlay that on top of another diagram of another person, we know how they're going to interact.
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We know what the issues will be, and we can then build on that.
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So, yeah, I mean, it's it like you I don't know how long it took you to take it, maybe 40 minutes or something, I don't know.
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That's what most people take, and then boom, they get it.
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So, yeah, it's invaluable. Yeah, absolutely.
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And and you've already shared with everyone.
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I wanted to tell everyone I have done the test, so I will be sharing my results.
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So, I want you to keep listening to this podcast.
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If you're listening or watching right now, I will be sharing a few insights from the test, uh from my own reflection and reflecting on it with Ray.
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So, that's going to be really fascinating.
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So, stick around for that.
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But Ray, I wanted to ask you, how do you start building a tool like this?
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Because it's it's very difficult, and as you've seen over the you know, the last 25 years since you've been exposed to this, learning, building, you've been hiring, building teams.
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How do you go about actually building a tool like this to make it as accurate as possible in a way that you're really proud of taking out to the world right now?
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Well, we we started then I wanted some other tests.
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And they would give me different dimensions of about a person.
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Uh so, I wanted those different dimensions.
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And then we would use that data to compare with how they were performing in different types of jobs and we're going to get into the doc collector later, but that'll be an example.
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And so we were we found it very valuable.
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And then naturally I was working with psychometricians about this partially to understand it and then partially to build it and what I decided to do was to build one test that would have all that the other tests had plus some some some more.
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And so I brought on these three psychometricians who were fabulous and we discussed built the test.
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And I'm now at a stage of my life that I'm passing along the things that have been valuable.
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So I'm passing it along to people for free so that they could take take it and benefit from it.
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Before we share my results and get into my insights, I would love to hear your advice on how you recommend people approach the questions in this test because what I find is that a lot of people when they're faced with questionnaires like this, they either overthink it, they answer too quickly, sometimes they aren't self-aware enough to really put the best answer out there.
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How do you answer this in the most authentic accurate way so that it actually helps you with self-awareness and understanding?
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Pretty much just relax and do it naturally. Whatever feels right.
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We haven't had much of a problem with people getting to getting either anxious or even trying to manipulate it or anything.
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But if you just answer the questions in the best possible way, don't worry about perfectionism.
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There are a number of questions that get at the same basic idea and so there's some triangulation.
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You know, just go with it and have a good time with it.
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Most people have a good time with it. That's great.
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Yeah, I know I found that sometimes some of these tests people are writing down what they think they are versus what they do in reality and there's that discrepancy of like how we think we think or how we think we behave but actually when we look at our actions they suggest otherwise.
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Yeah, I think you're just going to like it'll ask you the equivalent of do you like chocolate ice cream or vanilla ice cream?
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You know, just don't think about it too much.
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Just you know, what do you like?
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Yeah, you know, that's that's pretty much it.
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That's that's a good analogy. I I like that one.
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And what's your hope for people?
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Like you said earlier and we're going to talk about this later about how you're at a stage in your career where you're passing things on that you've learned.
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What is your biggest intention and hope that when someone uses this what are you wanting them to get out of it?
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First of all, discovering of themselves.
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Um, and then the discovery of the difference in people and the relationships they have with other people.
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To make those relationships better, work better.
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So, personal discovery will help them.
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They'll know what they have and what they're missing.
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And by knowing what they're missing they'll be able to supplement it and be more successful.
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And then in the relationships with others those things that might be confusing or frustrating can be turned into being efficient. So, it's great.
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That's what I hope that's what I hope to give people. That's a great hope.
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You said to me earlier, I think before we started recording that you had your wife do it.
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Does it help in marriage and relationships too?
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Is it something we can apply to dating and should we people using it in those relationships? Absolutely.
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And and it also helps you, you know, know how to talk about it.
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Um, I I there were there was a test out there after we did this uh that one of my daughter-in-laws uh had us do over a holiday and it uh we don't use it it's not part of this test but it was example it was uh the five types of love. Yes.
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Uh okay, you know the test. Yeah.
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Uh um and that was a good example, you know, how you speak and interact and what the other's looking for uh is very very helpful, very valuable, right?
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You know, it's 40 minutes.
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This isn't like a big commitment.
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So um so at people have also had a lot of fun with it because when they take theirs and they overlap the others um on it and the group um this is what what I gave you and what your uh listeners are going to be able to take is a beta version of it which doesn't yet have all of the interactions with others yet built out. We'll have that.
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And if they leave their names uh when we have that other feature, we'll get it to them.
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But um we're we're operating that way and it's fun.
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People laugh because it uh we had a group session uh with uh family and uh you know, I have four sons, four daughter-in-laws and and so on.
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And everybody it was funny because it said oh, that's right.
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That's how it works and that's why it works in that relationship.
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So they can be fun as well as insightful.
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Yeah, you you mentioned to me last week when we were catching up about this that you even sent it to Elon Musk and Bill Gates.
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Tell us tell us about some of the things that surprised them or something that you want to share about those reflections that were useful and impactful for you.
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Well, I wanted to um get the uh profiles of a certain type of person, the shaper.
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In other words, someone who uh was great at visualization and then built it out to actualization.
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So, like Elon Musk has done or uh Bill Gates has done or you know, many people.
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I I can rattle off but very very the most um successful.
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And I wanted to get that because I wanted to hire one of those.
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So, what is the pattern of the preferences? Shapers, I call them.
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What is the pattern of the those types of people?
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I wanted that DNA basically.
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And that's what I That's what I got.
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Um so, there are all these different personality types, uh but that shaper um has distinctive qualities that um only a small percentage of the population has it, but almost everyone who is doing that kind of thing, you know, visualizing a business or and um I did it also uh for Muhammad Yunus, who won the Nobel Peace Prize for microfinance.
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I did it for Geoffrey Canada, who is Harlem Children's Zone, built this fabulous institution for dealing with poverty. The patterns are clear.
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There's a lot of uh different personality archetypes in your world.
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So, you have creators, enthusiasts, influencers, givers, organizers, leaders, fighters, growth seekers, thinkers.
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So, anyone who does this test, you're going to find that.
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And what I found most fascinating was when you start going inside of your what you call the cognitive orientation.
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So, if you don't mind, let's take a deep dive in some of my uh results that came out from the test, if that sounds like a good idea for you, Ray, right now.
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Um and and you can guide me through this.
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And this is, you know, I consider myself very fortunate, uh first of all, to be doing this with you personally.
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So, I don't take this for granted.
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This is like, you know, sitting down with the sage and and guru and the mentor and to to be guided personally through this.
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Uh so when I look at my interpersonal orientation, so this is my sorry, this is my cognitive orientation, how you prefer to think. So, my creative is 99%. It's very high.
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I'm guessing that's a good thing for what I do.
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You've pursued what you're like, right?
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Um and a creator um is not better than anything else other than uh creating, you know?
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Um so, um it may be the opposite of somebody who wants to be really reliable, um meticulous, um and is really rule-following.
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Uh which can be fabulous for certain jobs.
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You want those people in certain jobs.
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So, uh yes, that's your inclination.
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You like to let your mind go wild and you um you want your have great imagination and you like creating. Okay?
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The act of creating um and that feels true to you.
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So, think of it almost like the food you like to eat.
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It's not that, you know, if you ate um Italian food or Chinese food or Indian food or something, it's not better.
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It just is uh strong preference. Yeah, absolutely.
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And I and I would have to fully agree with that assessment.
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I definitely I consider myself someone who deeply is an artist and a creative at heart, but has had to develop entrepreneurial skills to be able to spread that message, if that makes sense.
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That comes across in the other dimensions of your test because in many cases, um there are these creators who don't accomplish anything.
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And sometimes they just don't have a of um the practicality all that's necessary to be as creative as they can or to accomplish as much as they can. So, it's in the mix.
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Absolutely, and that's why I found when I look at analytical here, it says you tend to be methodical and process-oriented with a tendency to rely on personal instinct when reaching decisions and making choices.
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So, my analytical is 60% which I love that it was able to be so specific because I really do trust my intuition in in decision-making and I and I consider myself to be an insight intuition person.
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So, I like to look at the data, but I like to make a decision based on my intuition not based on the data alone.
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Well, you can hear how that sentence that it gave you um is so clear because and that your rating is at 60% is so clear because what it's describing is that you are an analytical person. Right? You like to do that.
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But unlike a person who is totally analytical who may not then deal with that other dimension that is part of you that is that other 40%. You have that other 40%.
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If you were to see that go all the way over to that scale and you wouldn't have that other 40%.
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It's a different type of analytical.
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You know what you understand what I mean? Yeah, absolutely.
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No, that makes you wouldn't have that intuition.
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You wouldn't have that subliminal gut intuition element as much.
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You would be just purely um calculating.
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And how much do you think Ray like at this I'd love to hear your perspective on this having had you know, such an incredible career and having seen this over and over again.
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How much do you think some of these things do need to be developed or don't?
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So, for example, let's say my score was like a a 10% on analytical.
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Would you be encouraging me to raise my analytical to be more successful?
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Or let's say it was 100% analytical, would you be encouraging someone to develop intuition?
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Or is that not how this works?
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Explain to us how you see that works successfully.
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There are two ways to be successful.
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To acquire all of the skills and abilities to be successful, that's the tough way.
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Or to work with people who are have those things that you are missing and work with them well, and that's the easy most effective way.
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So yes, we could try to change you.
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The The difference is you can move in by the equivalent, if you work hard at it, by about one standard deviation of the population.
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In other words, yes, if you work hard at it, you can become more and more analytical.
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You practice, you exercise it and so on.
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You're a you to use that example that you're using.
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But you you're you have to work on it, you'll change some and so on.
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And And generally, just realize like you don't need to have it all. Right?
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And And if you have a complimentary relationship, you're helping somebody who needs you and that's usually the best way to do it.
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Another one that I'm looking at here is I'm just picking out some fun ones that I like.
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So conceptual, it says you have a preference to think abstractly and philosophically using theories and models to solve problems.
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That is very me and it says 93% very high.
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I couldn't agree with that more. I love philosophize.
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My My greatest joy in life comes from two statements.
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So the first statement is by Ivan Pavlov and he said, "If you want a new idea, read an old book."
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So I I really believe that.
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I love going into timeless texts and unearthing truths.
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And then the second statement that kind of defines my work is by Einstein where he said that if you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough.
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And so for me, I like to try and find something that is really complex or intricate and detailed from the past and try and really extrapolate the essence from it so that I can share with people.
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That's kind of where I get my joy and buzz in life. I can hear that in you.
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I can empathize with you by the way because my uh mine is quite similar.
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My testing and my inclinations are quite different quite similar to that.
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And then and you could hear the passion and we could feel the passion.
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And then we also have to understand that there are other people who are exactly the opposite and get their passion from something different. Yeah, no, absolutely.
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And and and there's Yeah, I've I've also met people, you're right, completely the opposite who actually love making things more complicated and intricate and mystical.
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Yeah, so you could see where people go.
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In a conversation, you will see do they go down to the detail and can they separate the detail?
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Do they want the detail or they want the big picture?
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Um psychologists also call that helicoptering. Mhm.
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You know, um there everything has different levels like Google Maps.
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It's equivalent conceptually of Google Maps.
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So if you go up and you're looking down, the picture's totally different from that level and then you go down into it.
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So people are either inclined to be in one level or another or some can navigate from the detail to the big picture to the detail.
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Like when Elon Musk gave me uh he gave me his car to drive this one this was way back when it sort of first came out.
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Um and um he was able to navigate.
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It showed it up in his testing and everything.
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So, he would pay um, tre- tremendous attention to detail.
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He showed me then the car and how uh, the button and you push this and the trunk opens and this does this and and so, he was like a jeweler with a piece of jewelry in terms of that design, that detail.
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And then he goes back to the big picture and we were talking about like uh, going to Mars and humanity over a period of time.
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He was able to navigate both of those.
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That's a rare occasion, by the way, because people don't always uh, but there are those different levels and you can see in the conversation where people tend to gravitate to. Mm, absolutely.
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And and and what you're saying is if someone is actually using this tool in their company or in their family or in their teams, then actually they don't just have to rely on reading people and what they're saying and hearing, they can actually have a framework that supports that where they can find the parallels.
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Yeah, so we connect it to the dot collector, for example. Yeah.
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Or we just put those profiles on and then they when they're interacting, then they're aware of those profiles and it helps.
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Yeah, I saw that great video you made uh, on YouTube about the dot collector, which I highly recommend everyone goes and watches as well uh, if it's available to the public.
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Uh, but that video really explained it well and what I found fascinating about the dot collector, let's talk about it seeing as you mentioned it there, is we're spending all of our days on Zoom right now, every single one of us, even us doing this interview right now.
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And you were talking about just how there's so many people who have so much to say, who are not necessarily even the people speaking at that moment in time.
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There are so many notes being missed, there's so many in between the line messages that are lost in communication and you've created this software to be able to actually capture all of that and then share that data in a way that's practical and applicable and actionable. Yeah.
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Um I'll give you a little bit background.
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I um I created it in Bridgewater.
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So, um I it what people will see it uh to take a it allows people to express what they're thinking um about people, about what they're thinking on an ongoing basis.
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Um and then it allows questions and answers to go back because what bothered me was only the people who could talk could I get the ideas from.
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And so, this big bottle neck.
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And also, I wanted an idea meritocracy, everybody to be able to speak up.
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And I wanted everybody's thoughts. So, that was that.
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And I also, like the test, wanted to collect the data so that with that data they could on a day-to-day basis see how their what they're thinking.
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The data is collected so they know how they think again.
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And also, uh it's been fantastic for daily 360 reviews because everybody is working with their um with others and they're getting essentially a 360 review simultaneously.
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So, you don't wait till the end of the year for the feedback.
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You're getting that on an ongoing basis.
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Now, at this stage of my life, one of the things I'm doing is trying to help others um who are running companies and so on.
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So, um Eric Yuan who uh runs Zoom and his team runs Zoom, he he started it, he's running it.
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Um he asked us all to help.
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And uh because it had such a big effect on them, he's having it integrated into Zoom.
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So, we expect in January when you go on a Zoom call like this, there'll be attached to it um this dot collector and it'll allow people to do what I've just described. Yeah, that's awesome. I love hearing that. That's brilliant.
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I I I think we need to make our technology far smarter and it's great to see you adapting so quickly to bringing something out like that that's going to help teams function because I'm doing so many corporate events right now.
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I speak at potentially nearly a company a day at the moment because of the challenges that people are having with their mental well-being, their stress levels, their disconnectedness, lack of engagement of working from home.
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And and I think this tool is one of those that can really act as a huge solution right now, at least in the right direction.
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To give an example like you go in, you have a conversation like this and there's a group conversation.
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And you go away and you go on to the next thing. And nothing is saved.
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And you don't know what everybody's thinking.
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Okay, that's the way it normally is. Absolutely. That's no good. Okay.
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Just imagine everything is saved. And that it's clear.
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Just imagine you could take a summary of that meeting.
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And you could pass it to somebody and they could hear whatever they want to in that meeting and and and Okay, that changes things.
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So for example, um one of one of the CEOs in a big company who's running it, we did the same thing with him.
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Then afterwards, we took the printout of what was what happened in that meeting.
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And then we went through that point by point. And we discussed that.
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And then it's data that goes in. Data is powerful. You know? Yeah.
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But some people get a little bit nervous about it and so on.
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It gets a little bit You got to get a a um used to it.
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Because as you know about psychology, we were talking about this before.
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In every person, there are two yous, right?
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There's the upper level you, which is conscious, the conscious you, that is and you could be logical, you could reason.
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Then there's the subliminal you, which you actually don't get to see.
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It's It's not conscious to you.
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And it has its own inclinations and it's emotional or maybe inspiration, things that come from the subconscious.
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And all of those things are operating to determine your behavior.
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And so by being able to take your analytical you and to then collect the data and use that.
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So sometimes people have emotional barriers.
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Not Not that it's logical.
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Almost everybody who looks at this these things find some very logical, but it might get a little bit of used to.
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Okay, can you be Can you give somebody critical feedback?
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How do you react to critical feedback? Do you want facts?
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This is another dimension.
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We were talking about this last time we talked.
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Do you want to know what's true?
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Can you talk about what's true?
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These are other dimensions to it.
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So the potential, we're living in a world now in which there's an an opportunity to know what's true.
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Evidence-based through data. Okay?
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Do you want to know what's true?
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If you know what's true, it's a foundation for making great improvements.
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But some people Do you want to know what your weaknesses are?
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It's a power from knowing what your weaknesses are. Of course, you want to.
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But you have to get yourself into also that psychological state, too. So they work together.
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Like I found the reason my company went from nothing to quite something as you point out.
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The Fortune said the fifth most important private company in the country. Um was that.
30:52
In other words, to get at truth um meaningful work and meaningful relationships being on a mission together to achieve something great and then the relationships but to do that through radical truthfulness and radical transparency so we could take people's strengths and weaknesses and work with them to achieve that much higher level of performance.
31:21
Yeah, no, I'm totally with you.
31:21
Yeah, no, I'm totally with you. I think having data to measure the subconscious reactions, actions, responses is phenomenal because that's far more interesting and actually that conscious version of ourselves has been so
31:36
conditioned and has become so default that it can often actually hold us back from a completely collaborative team or a completely high-performing team because that's just been the way we've worked for so long and so all of it is lost in not noticing the subconscious. So that the fact that that's being
31:53
So that the fact that that's being measured is is brilliant. It's really useful. It's so powerful.
31:57
Otherwise, it's all buried in subliminal things that people don't talk about. Yeah. Not not not good. Yeah.
32:07
And I love what you say about wanting to know the truth because there there has to be some courage to face our weaknesses and truly honor our strengths.
32:16
I find that, you know, we've grown up in a society of I've talked about this before, Ray, where I went to a high school, a very competitive, good high school back in England and school would rank us in order of number one to number number 180 of all the students in every subject every year against our peers.
32:38
And so you would get to see that.
32:41
Uh and that was useful, but what was missed there was what you're talking about, this subconscious potential, this hidden potential.
32:50
Yeah, what what what what people don't understand is that they think how good they are is in that number. Yes. Okay.
33:00
And what they lose is the power of mistakes and weaknesses.
33:09
That's why one of the reasons why academic success is very poorly correlated with subsequent success in life.
33:17
And so people become attached to what they know.
33:20
The one I think the greatest tragedy of mankind It's a big statement.
33:27
The greatest tragedy of mankind is that people hold opinions in their heads which are wrong that they could so easily stress test.
33:39
But they're so attached to those opinions that might be wrong.
33:42
If there's a disagreement um then somebody's must be wrong.
33:48
How do you know that it's not you?
33:50
And to be able to learn if you're attached to knowing you don't have a capacity to learn.
34:01
If you're curious and you focus in on what you don't know and you're excited about not knowing and learning then you have you will learn more and you'll raise your chances of coming up with a good answer.
34:15
So that whole dynamic as you're dealing with it is am I worthy? Am I good?
34:24
I don't want to look at my mistakes.
34:24
I don't want to look at my weaknesses is one of the great tragedies of our time.
34:32
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
34:34
That's a really bold statement, but but you you backed it up well.
34:35
So, I I'm I'm definitely one who agrees with you, and I want to move back to some parts of my test cuz I still want to get your insight on it.
34:43
Um this one is the section on interpersonal orientation, so how I engage with others, right?
34:50
Uh and my extrovertedness is 97%, and the definition is you tend to be engaging and outgoing.
34:59
You thrive at the epicenter of social activities and are socially bold and adventurous.
35:03
So, I I'll share something that's interesting about this.
35:07
I agree with that highly, very much agree with that.
35:09
At the same time, I love being alone more than being around lots of people.
35:15
So, I I get a lot of energy from seclusion and solitude and uh being in silence, and I I crave that almost, and I try and construct my days in such a way that I can have more of that.
35:29
So, how does that How is your I'd love to hear your understanding of extraversion and introversion and how what I just shared with you fits together in a very natural way?
35:38
What happens is you have the um your natural inclination is to do those things that were mentioned.
35:48
And it described you very well, and then you, like your like me, also meditate or or understand the uh power of the rejuvenative nature of that experience, and also uh well, we both meditate, and so we understand that what it's like to go into the subconscious and uh to refresh ourselves, and how that balance then gives us the energy and the equanimity to come back and to do the other. So, that's how it works.
36:32
You've experienced it, you describe it, and that's basically what it's picking up in you in terms of the the disc- the excitement.
36:40
There will be people who will be very different from that.
36:45
Uh meditation is something, for example, or going within is something that is beneficial to everyone.
36:53
But, at the same time, when you um there are many people who wouldn't want to do the things that they just described you wanting to do.
37:03
In other words, you want to, you will go into a group, you get your energy with that, you will naturally be there.
37:09
There are people who are introverted who would say, "That's the last thing in the world that I want."
37:17
So, you're naturally as described, and then also using that in the way that I use that.
37:23
I'm I'm tested, and I'm uh very much exactly like you, and and I experience that. I love hearing that.
37:32
It's very reassuring hearing that from you, and and I know that meditation's been a huge part of your practice, and we'll we'll come back to that towards the end of the interview.
37:39
I want to dive more into that. I This was fun.
37:40
Uh how I engage with others.
37:43
It says that I am uh 81% caring.
37:46
So, you have a strong desire to prioritize and support others' needs, are fascinated by their behaviors and tendencies, though tend to be less sensitive to and caught up in their emotions and feelings.
37:58
Uh so, that was that that that was interesting to me.
38:00
I was like, "Yeah, I I consider myself to be an empathetic, caring individual."
38:03
At the same time, and to compare that to, I'm also 68% on the tough scale.
38:09
So, you tend to be willing to debate your and others' ideas and perspectives, share criticism openly when warranted, but tend to be more diplomatic and nuanced than blunt and direct in your style.
38:21
And that I fully agreed with, too, that I don't I've never believed that being rude or being angry without control or, you know, to just be aggressive is ever useful, but to to really share things in an open way without beating around the bush is really my very much needed.
38:44
So, I like that comparison between tough and caring.
38:46
Well, do you see how it really picked up the subtlety of it?
38:51
That those sentences were written specifically for that mix of attributes and and tailored that way because it's saying that you are this way, but you're not this way.
39:06
And so, though that sentence was a very apt um very sophisticated or subtle finessed kind of description of what that means for you.
39:20
And there's a continuum there, you see, that somebody might be they might be, you know, just one way or another, right?
39:28
But you So, yes, you are direct. You are strong.
39:30
Um you you want those things.
39:34
And while you want those things, um and you're deeply caring, okay?
39:40
That caringness does not mean that you're going to shy away from talking about difficult things to talk about Mhm.
39:55
because you feel that you need to.
39:58
Well, you can hear that's captured you, and that's a very important difference than somebody who might be also not, you know, caring, but cannot talk about the difficult things because that makes it that's very difficult for them to do.
40:16
And there are many people who are like that.
40:18
And so they in the test would have a description that would say, "And you find it difficult to talk to people about such things and resolve them."
40:29
That's the power of the test.
40:30
What I What I found so unique and powerful about this test, especially this point that you've just again re-emphasized to me and highlighted to me, is that that subtle nuance plays so deeply into my self-awareness because I believe I'm someone who likes to embrace polarities.
40:48
So, I believe that being spiritual and being strategic need to work together.
40:54
I don't believe it's either/or.
40:56
I don't I don't think you can say I'm I'm just spiritual, I'm just strategic.
40:59
For me, it has to work together.
41:00
Or when I hear people say like, "Oh, you have to be affectionate or assertive."
41:04
And I'm like, "No, no, I'm both of those things."
41:06
Like, I want to be affectionately assertive.
41:07
And so to me, I've always wanted to articulate and share more that I believe in embracing polarities, and this picked up on that, which I found fascinating because it's such a key integral part of how I see myself.
41:23
And the fact that it could get right in there uh is is really truly powerful.
41:27
And think about that that what that means for the people that you have relationships with.
41:35
Then when you give it to them and they say this is a description, cuz you could just go check, I believe it, it's powerful here, you understand, they're understanding you.
41:43
They're understanding what you're doing, where you're coming from.
41:47
And you could understand when they give you theirs, you can understand that and all makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.
41:55
For everyone who's listening and watching right now, if you're ever speaking to your partner or you're speaking to a colleague and you're wondering why they don't tell you it how it is because that's how you respond, if you do this activity with them, you'll be able to see how they deal with difficult conversations, how they're caring, and how their caring style comes across.
42:13
And this one for everyone who's listening and watching, I want you to tell me if you agree or disagree.
42:17
So, my my humor score came back, and my humor score is 63%.
42:19
It says you tend to be more joyful and light-hearted than serious and intense.
42:27
63% is pretty accurate, I'd say.
42:27
I I like to be quite sober, too.
42:29
Uh my wife has been pushing me in the more light-hearted and joyful because that's what she is.
42:35
Uh and I'm pretty sure if we dialed this up for her, it would be like 99% I can't wait to send it to uh but but anyone who's listening or watching right now, you can tell me if you think I'm funny or not.
42:44
You can tag me and Ray on Instagram, as well, at Jay Shetty, at Ray Dalio.
42:48
Tell them whether you think it should be more than 63% or less than 63%.
42:55
Uh but that was a fun one to see in there. Again, right.
42:57
Uh the next part is called motivational orientation, uh which just for everyone who knows describes how you manage and apply yourself as challenges are faced.
43:06
So, I'm interested in this.
43:10
Uh composed, said 99% very high.
43:10
You tend to remain calm, confident, and controlled under stress or pressure.
43:19
Uh I I feel very grateful to have been trained in that ability, thanks to meditation, uh thanks to my time as a monk.
43:26
Uh and it felt very It felt very reassuring to to see that on paper.
43:32
Well, uh yes, and it and it's you.
43:32
And you see how this composite then adds up to you. Uh right?
43:40
So, um you're creative, you have the caring, but you're strong.
43:45
Um you'll talk about those issues, and then, you know, you're in a position where under stress, you'll be calm, and so on.
43:52
Wow, uh this is painting a very rich picture because there's some people who, you know, stress is not good for. Yeah.
44:01
And you wouldn't want them to be in that particular situation that you might on it they need help. Absolutely.
44:07
And this one really resonated So it's really interesting I'll tell I'll share this with you.
44:09
So the composed aspect is what I gained from being a monk, but the next thing I'm going to share with you is what stopped me from remaining a monk. So my autonomous is 99%.
44:17
So you are independent, self-motivated, and hold yourself accountable for outcomes you experience, but that independence is what broke me out of living as a monk because I could no longer adhere to the rules and practices and and feel that that's how I wanted to share the wisdom.
44:36
And so it's interesting how experiences in our life help us gain certain skills like that composure, but then also our natural inclination of autonomy, which is very high in me, I know that for a fact, pushes you out of it, too. Yeah. And then this is great. Flexible, 99%.
44:55
Um which I found This one was really fascinating.
44:56
So status seeking, you have a moderate preference to please uh and keep up appearances, be liked, admired, and respected.
45:04
So I was 50% moderate, which I was actually really happy that that was actually measurable.
45:08
So I always say to people I believe it's really important to uh you know, show up, be there, be present, be relevant, but at the same time, you're not That's not your governing factor. That's not your anchor.
45:22
That's not why I do what I do, but I realize the value of it.
45:25
And the fact that it was able to hit it 50%, that was That was mind-blowing to see that uh that level of that level of accuracy.
45:34
So these these sentences literally feel like they were written directly for me.
45:38
And by the way, just so everyone knows, I really do believe in the horoscope effect where if you think something's written for you, it is you, but having done a lot of these exercises and having spent a lot of time doing self-awareness, I can promise you that this is not the horoscope effect.
45:54
I'm reading these statements and feeling very well understood uh and and deeply understood.
46:00
So I just want to throw that out there, Ray, because the horoscope effect is real, um, but but this is not that.
46:09
Um, and the way that we test it is, uh, we go back.
46:12
You you you we sometimes we blind test it and we say, "Who is this person?"
46:17
And they get, "Oh, that's that person."
46:20
And and you get the triangulation. No, it's Yeah. It's the real deal. Yeah. Yeah.
46:24
So, and it's 40 minutes and well, and and it's free. So. Yeah, it's it's awesome.
46:32
So, yeah, no, I I absolutely love the test.
46:34
I highly recommend it to everyone.
46:36
I think it's a great conversation starter with your partner.
46:40
I think it's incredible to do with your teams.
46:42
I think it's phenomenal to do in your companies.
46:44
I was saying to Ray when we spoke about this last week that my hope is that my Jay Shetty certification school can adopt this and use this in our coaching school as one of the tools that we recommend to people because we want people to gain this self-awareness.
46:59
And what better way than to have a really accurate, like you said, 45 minutes, 120 questions.
47:04
It did not feel like that at all.
47:07
It It was really I love doing these things and I love reading the results even more.
47:11
And I couldn't recommend it more to each of you for your relationships, your families, your teams, uh, your companies, depending on what level you're at in the company, but I'll definitely be recommending this to the to the CEOs, the executives that I work with in my work and coaching work.
47:26
And we're going to put the link for all of you to try out.
47:29
So, this is the beta version, uh, I believe that Ray is giving us access to.
47:33
And so, we're very grateful to Ray and the team at Principles You for doing that for us.
47:38
And so, I want each and every single one of you that are listening to this, if you've been fascinated by learning about my answers and seeing how me and Ray have been reflecting, I want to see yours.
47:47
So, head on to Instagram, share your archetype, share your insights of what you learned, and tag me and Ray on Instagram because we want to be able to see what is it that you learned about yourself.
47:58
And then I want to keep you monitoring and I want you to come back and tell me some stories about how this has impacted your relationships and your companies.
48:06
And if you record it and send it in to us, we will put it on a future episode as well.
48:10
So I want to gather some qualitative responses from you as well as quantitative.
48:14
So I want to throw that out there for everyone who's watching.
48:17
Well, then let me say thank you very much because, you know, my goal is to pass it along and make it as good as possible to people.
48:24
And if you all give that kind of feedback in this beta test, it'll all make it better and better.
48:32
And it's better for everyone.
48:32
So wow, that would be just great. Awesome. Thanks, Ray.
48:38
So Ray, I have to ask you before we move on to the next part of the interview. I have to ask you.
48:42
So if you were hiring me for a role in one of your companies, what would be my role?
48:46
Where would you put me based on what you've learned?
48:50
I'd have you as a a my strategic partner.
48:54
In other words, okay, big picture. Where are we going?
48:59
Uh you know, how do we get there?
48:59
Um and then I think you'd be extremely effective in dealing with people.
49:07
Because, okay, you understand all of those things.
49:10
That that mix that you have between on the one hand, um being able to deal truthfully with those issues, um and not shying away from that.
49:21
But to be able to do that well and to keep their well-being as paramount importance and their development and so on are qualities that you have.
49:30
That would be your inclination.
49:33
But I'd also need to supplement you.
49:37
You know, uh as everybody else.
49:37
And that would mean the people that would um work with you to help on the implementation.
49:44
I wouldn't want you to get caught up in the details.
49:46
I wouldn't want you to um um, necessarily rely on all the precision and the accuracy and all of those types of things. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
49:58
That's that's great to hear.
49:58
I know I have a job lined up if I need it. Any time.
50:04
Uh, but no, that's that's awesome.
50:04
It's really great to hear that.
50:05
And I agree, that was going to be my second question.
50:08
Who do you think I should be surrounding myself by to be more effective and productive?
50:12
And you answered it just there and then that having people around me that are highly detail-oriented, implementation-oriented, people who can bring that vision to life.
50:22
Uh, and I couldn't agree with you more.
50:24
I know I'm on the search for them in my company right now.
50:27
So, very much aligned with that.
50:29
Uh, and and I want people to know I really felt a great degree of accuracy doing this.
50:34
Now, Ray, we've talked about this before.
50:36
You're at a stage in your life and and you said it very wonderfully to me the other day.
50:39
You said, "You know, I'm at a stage in my life where I'm trying to share what I've learned."
50:43
Uh, we see you doing that with Principles now, with Principles you, with the Dot Collector, with your new book that's coming out called The Changing World Order, Why Nations Succeed and Fail.
50:54
And what I love about the way you do it, and you beautifully said this, you were like, "You know, when when you get to You You were saying that we share it."
51:01
But you said, "When you get to 71, you want to do it faster."
51:03
And I thought, what a what a you know, what a beautiful way to live uh, that you're living with such purpose and service. And you always have.
51:11
Uh, but you're continuing to do that today and we're benefiting from it.
51:14
But what I love that you have the ability to do based on your experience and background is you're able to go from these micro individual deep personal topics to then scale, and like you said, the helicopter kind of method, of then talk about these really macro, global, national issues and challenges.
51:38
And and you have not just the authority and experience, but you have the insight to be able to speak about these things.
51:44
And so, your new book, The Changing World Order, Why Nations Succeed and Fail, uh which you can pre-order right now.
51:50
If you're listening to this episode, the book is not out yet, but it will be out soon, so you can pre-order it on Amazon.
51:56
Uh you talk about these three really fascinating concepts, which you talk about a lot, but I want to dive into these three important concepts.
52:04
And the first one is something that rings really true for people right now.
52:08
Uh and and we'll see the crescendo, but we talk about the financial challenges and the financial issues that society is currently facing, only amplified by the pandemic and the the craziness of 2020.
52:25
Uh and and I was I was intrigued to hear what you felt is what's going to make nations financially succeed and fail as the future unfolds.
52:36
Where does our financial power, history, and uh legacy lie, and how are nations going to fail or succeed in this very important metric?
52:48
Well, I'm happy you asked the question. I'll answer it.
52:49
I just wanted uh to also clarify um that I'm writing the book and I'm uh putting in my drafts of all the chapters.
52:59
They're available on LinkedIn, so if you really want to uh read the book as it's being written, um you go to LinkedIn and you can get it as it's happening, and it doesn't cost you anything.
53:12
So, that's a possibility.
53:14
If you'd like to uh do that, you can understand it.
53:15
Um there are um there are three big things that are happening in our lifetimes or right now um that didn't happen in my lifetime before, didn't happen in our lifetimes before, uh but happened in history.
53:34
And uh uh it was interesting to me over my years um that um that that my surprises often came from things that didn't happen in my lifetime but happened before in history.
53:47
And those three things that are I'm referring to and by the way all happened in the 1930s were first with financial and and debt.
53:59
And that means when there was a lot of debt and interest rates were pushed down to 0%.
54:10
And in order to stimulate the economy, the governments had to produce a lot more debt that the central banks had to print money to buy that debt.
54:24
That coming to the end of a long-term debt cycle is happening now. It's we're in that era.
54:32
It has big implications for the value of money and who gets money and so on.
54:35
And the last time that happened was in 1930s.
54:42
So, I'll explain that those implications in a minute, but I want to get to the second of those influences.
54:48
The second of those big influences is large gaps in wealth, values, and politics.
54:59
I can measure the wealth gap, the income gap, the political gap statistically. I show it. I know it.
55:04
And we have not had such large gaps.
55:07
You have to go back again to the 1930s to have that those types of gaps. And we see it every day.
55:16
And that has real implications.
55:19
It has economic implications such as what will tax policy be? What will spending be?
55:26
What will we put as our prioritization?
55:28
So, it affects us every day.
55:32
But it even affects how are we dealing with each other.
55:37
Uh, we have gotten almost to the point of having irreconcilable differences and being in a position where there's winning at all cost.
55:50
And history has shown that that is a very threatening type of situation that it it's the brink of civil war and revolution when there's not enough respect for the system or enough interaction.
56:04
So, it's a risky really risky point that we see every day. What how should we be? What are our values?
56:12
All of What does that mean for taxes?
56:14
You see it red states and blue states and the differences.
56:19
And that has implications financial, economic, and so on.
56:21
And the third factor is the rise of a great power to challenge the United States as a great power.
56:30
Um, and that again in the 30s, for example, there was the British Empire and then Germany and Japan grows and were able to challenge and and that led to conflicts and eventually led to war.
56:45
Um, we now have for the first time in this uh, order, this world order, which began in 1945 when the end of World War II we began a new system, was the American system, put the dollar at the center of that system and America and American world order rules were American.
57:05
And that um, is now uh, there's the emergence of China.
57:08
And so we're having conflicts with China.
57:11
There are five types of major conflicts that always happen over and over again and we're experiencing that. They call them wars. There's a trade war.
57:21
There's a technology war.
57:23
There's a geopolitical war. There is a capital war.
57:29
And there is a military build-up and so on.
57:33
And so, how a lot of things are going to happen, how technology will unfold, how capital and trade will be, which will affect us all, is influenced by that.
57:42
So, those three things happened over and over again.
57:46
So, I studied the last 500 years of history to see the patterns, and I learned a lot about those three things, and how they relate to each other tells us where we are and gives us some good ideas of the risks and opportunities of what might come. Yeah, I know.
58:05
The The Those three are so interesting when, like you just said, are being faced at the same time, uh which makes it such a unprecedented time, as we hear over and over again.
58:18
What is the root of solving or finding a solution within all of those three?
58:24
Because it's almost like all roads point to like a bad space or like a negative outcome.
58:30
When you hear those three things, the financial problems, we're at each other's throats, as you've said, the opposition power rising.
58:37
What is the solution in a Or Or what are the What are the ways or alternative paths that we can take uh as as a nation, as as countries across the world, to create more uh harmony?
58:51
Well, that's um the the great thing about the lessons of history is it's not unprecedented.
58:55
It's only unprecedented in our lifetimes. Yes.
59:00
So, we can look back over there and you see these things happen over and over again.
59:06
Um and so, there are lessons.
59:08
For example, on the war issue, uh there were 12 There were 16 times where there were rising powers that challenged the existing powers.
59:16
In 12 of those times, they had wars.
59:22
In four of those times, um uh the it they didn't have wars, that they worked it out.
59:29
And and so you could see societies that came close to civil war or wars internationally.
59:34
The big things are two big things.
59:41
How the people deal with each other, recognizing what whether this is a common challenge, and they recognize the need to find the common solutions through working together to find those common solutions, with the recognition and the horror of knowing what the the these wars are like.
1:00:10
Um, it so fear of those wars, um, understanding those wars, anybody who went through those wars and saw those things up close, knows that they never want to have anything like that again, but unfortunately, they've pa- those people have passed away.
1:00:29
And so the that that notion of fear, that the necessity of working it together in a non-conflicting way is very important.
1:00:38
And the second of those things are skills.
1:00:40
Skills that that so that you can engineer the increasing the size of the pie and dividing it well.
1:00:53
What what history has shown is that some people are focused in on increasing the size of the pie, but not dividing it well.
1:01:01
And so that that's a problem.
1:01:01
And some people are so focused on dividing it that they don't know how to increase the size of the pie.
1:01:09
At the end of the day, you have to raise productivity.
1:01:14
Whatever you get to consume, whatever you get to eat, somebody's got to produce.
1:01:19
And so productivity is got to be important.
1:01:22
While there's also a recognition that that has to encompass most people so that those most people can be productive and and share in that productivity.
1:01:33
If you don't have that, you'll have that out of balance and you'll have a problem.
1:01:37
So those are the two things, skills and the need to do it together are the two most important that history gives us as a guide. You know where you are.
1:01:47
Every day's not a new day, right?
1:01:49
In other words, we are not in a position where our debts were the same as when we 30 years ago.
1:01:58
And we're not in a position that monetary policy could be there.
1:02:02
And we're not in a position that like at the end of the war where where most people there's a big middle class and the differences between them weren't great.
1:02:11
You have to recognize those difference and be able to skillfully and together deal with those differences.
1:02:19
That's such great analysis and I'm so glad that you went and picked those lessons out from hindsight because I think there's a beautiful statement by Mark Twain where he said similar to what you're saying man, he said history never repeats itself but it always rhymes.
1:02:33
And and you know, we're in that situation right now where you're saying it's not exactly the same but there are a lot of the same factors that are that are involved and by recognizing the differences but still applying the knowledge of the past that we missed out on.
1:02:47
I think I'm really hoping that you're speaking to and guiding some of our world leaders in that direction because it's you know, I I think there's a lot of people who feel at least from my conversations on the ground at least feel very helpless and don't know how they can be a part of that macro change.
1:03:04
And so I am speaking to world leaders and I also know how challenging it is to be in their position because they also report to a population that could be quite emotional and quite demanding.
1:03:16
And so, the idea of doing it rationally is is important.
1:03:23
But, that's policy for the whole.
1:03:26
But, individuals need to start with taking care of themselves.
1:03:30
So, don't worry if you're not changing the world, okay, and fixing the world, but worry about how you're handling that yourself. Right?
1:03:38
And that means how you how you save your money, how you prepare to get your you know, your financial cushion, how you invest your money, how you treat yourself.
1:03:52
And that may be your meditation or your understanding of such times.
1:03:58
These are all things that you could do to help you and your family and the people that you care about. That's important.
1:04:07
You may not solve the problems of the world, but you can know how to deal with the world well.
1:04:14
Yeah, that's great advice, Ray. That's awesome.
1:04:16
Thank you so much to everyone who hasn't Like Ray said, you can get the free chapters on LinkedIn.
1:04:21
Or, if you're like me and love having real books in your house, then you can order the Changing World Order for when it's out.
1:04:27
Ray makes Ray, your team makes beautiful books.
1:04:29
Principles is a beautiful book.
1:04:30
Yeah, it feels good, it looks great, it reads even better inside.
1:04:33
And so, if anyone does want the physical copy, you can pre-order it.
1:04:37
But, like Ray said, he's being very kind and generous and you can find the draft chapters as the book's being written on LinkedIn as well to download.
1:04:44
Ray, it's been wonderful speaking to you again and you've been so generous with your time and I wanted to thank you again for your beautiful testimonial that you gave to my book, Think Like a Monk, which was very very gracious of you, very kind.
1:04:56
I was very honored to receive that. It meant a lot.
1:05:00
And even reconnecting with you today and learning from you and getting the fortune and the joy of being able to go through my Principles You and Personal Discovery Tool with you was was really my pleasure. So, thank you so much.
1:05:13
Well, we're very aligned.
1:05:15
I have a great deal of respect for you and I think that your listeners are very lucky to have your input on a regular basis.
1:05:24
So, you know, thank you for allowing me to share these things.
1:05:30
I hope they're of use to them. Absolutely, Ray.
1:05:32
I think I think this this stage of your life is going to serve people in in an incredible incredible way with all this work you're doing and it's What I love about it so much is that it's it's building tools.
1:05:44
It's building frameworks.
1:05:44
Everything you've done for so many years but for individuals and and I think that's going to be so powerful.
1:05:49
So, thank you for doing what you're doing and thank you for allowing me to be a part of it and a big thank you to your incredible team for always encouraging our collaboration.
1:05:58
So, thank you to the mall.
1:05:59
Everyone who's listening and watching, make sure you go follow Ray on Instagram and across social media.
1:06:05
Please, please, please go ahead and click on the link.
1:06:07
Do the beta version of Principles You.
1:06:09
I promise you you won't regret it and of course you can pre-order the book The New World Order and look out for Dot Collector on Zoom as well.
1:06:18
Ray, thank you so much for being here and we're so grateful to have you as a regular, probably the third guest only to have ever done two episodes on On Purpose so far.
1:06:27
One of those three is my wife.
1:06:30
So, this has been absolutely awesome, Ray. Thank you so much. I'm honored. Thank you.
1:06:34
If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here.
1:06:41
I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book Think Like a Monk from thinklikeamonkbook. com.
1:06:50
Check below in the description to make sure you order today.