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If you get recognized by people in various places and they feel comfortable, they come up and talk to you, what do they what do they align you to the most in terms of what you've done?
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And we're doing another one, so that's not going to go away soon.
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[Music] It's a beautiful life that you have, you know, been living and and not without its challenges, but what a what a beautiful tapestry you're weaving. Thank you. Yeah.
0:32
I, you know, as I go along in life, I try to appreciate the good things and and the, you know, how fortunate I've been to be able to uh do what I love to do and have that the freedom to like, you know, um explore what what what's interesting to me creatively or that's page number one, isn't it?
0:56
For anyone who's listening or watching this who's thinking about the other metrics of value, whether it's becoming financially secure, important, whether it's being recognized for what you do, very important, all these are important elements, but the freedom to serve your curiosity, it it kind of like the source. Yeah.
1:13
And it's an interesting question because I think you know you talk about all those other things uh in life the life uh realities that we all deal with when you do uh something that is creative uh and that becomes your uh you know your job or your how you you know make a living even or just how you live your life and you say this is what I'm going to do with my life.
1:37
you're constantly having to make those choices of, you know, which way do you go and what are the things that you want to uh have in your life that make you happy outside of the creative process.
1:52
And sometimes that means you have to figure out which way you go in terms of spending your time and finding not to come back to severance but the the work life balance or you know I don't even I guess I wouldn't say the work life balance for me.
2:07
It's more like the uh creativity life balance because it's been a consuming experience for you and rightfully so.
2:14
You've it sounds like everyone who works on the show is purposefully by design obsessed with working on the show.
2:24
and I'm sure that's a lot of creative people.
2:26
It's a blessing and I know everyone's hyperfocused on every job that they're doing.
2:32
But it just feels like everyone there is just a real sense of like no we've got something really unique, curious, special and now successful which is such a rare combination of factors like it's a precious thing you are in right now, right? Yeah.
2:46
I mean, it it it doesn't happen that often.
2:48
And, you know, once you're you start working on something, you're you go all in on it, and you can't really know how it's going to be received or if it'll keep going.
2:57
If it's something that is open-ended, like a series, you just put everything into it, and you don't think about the result other than what you how you imagine it.
3:09
Um, and in terms of how how the outside world accepts it.
3:12
So, um, you know, that's I think with anything it it does it doesn't matter if you're trying to do something that's commercial or not commercial.
3:21
If you're doing something that's you're trying to make for a broad audience, you do have to have an awareness of certain things.
3:25
It's wind in a bottle though, man.
3:28
It's like, how do you get it?
3:30
I mean, that's that's a question actually, which is, you know, I've spoken to so many artists who learn that lesson over time.
3:35
Sometimes it comes quickly.
3:38
Sometimes it comes a few albums in or a few projects in where you're like, I cannot control how people are going to perceive this. What?
3:45
Because you started very young in this and you also started young as an independent thinker.
3:50
A lot of people start young and are rolled into the system, but you broke out pretty quick and were like, I'm going to make my own pretty quickly. Yeah.
3:58
So, does that mean you had to figure that out pretty quickly that like I cannot control how people are going to perceive this or take it or absorb it?
4:07
Honestly, it was just out of wanting to to to to work and to do do my thing.
4:12
And and when I was starting out, I think I I'm a late bloomer really in terms of just getting to the place where I feel like even now in my life, I have a really much more clear sense of creatively um what makes me happy.
4:25
And I think I've been trying to figure it out a lot of my life and um going down different roads which have all been really interesting.
4:34
And um but but when I started out, I was I knew that I wanted to be uh I knew I wanted to be making movies and I knew I wanted to be doing funny things and I also loved drama and I I it was sort of like trying to figure out like what do I do? Am I an actor? Am I a director? Am I a writer?
4:54
Um you're driving all over the road at that point, right?
4:56
And also like not having a self-awareness when I was younger, I think of really understanding like having a clear sense.
5:02
I really admire artists at a young age who have a really clear sense of, you know, the choices that they make.
5:08
Um that that understanding how important the choices you make are.
5:13
And I didn't have that sense when I was younger.
5:15
Um I was just sort of trying to figure it out and going off of instinct.
5:18
And um I started wanting to act and I wanted to make films but I didn't know how to do either other than I was grew up in the business.
5:27
So I I knew that there were like you go on auditions or if you want to make a movie you figure out like what the movie is and you try to put it together.
5:35
But I personally inside didn't know like what what my real sort of calling or direction was.
5:39
So I just sort of like went in different directions and saw what was sticking.
5:44
And the making my own stuff came out of really as an actor in like my late teens or early 20s trying to get work and not really getting hired.
5:56
So I started to just create my own stuff with my friends.
5:58
Um now this was you know again it was uh before phones and all of that.
6:03
So it was a different process to make your own stuff.
6:08
It was a little bit harder you know you had quite an investment. Yeah. Somebody had to back it. Yeah.
6:12
So, you know, we I went down some funny roads of trying to get somebody to, you know, pay for a short film I wanted to make or um you know, coming up with an idea and getting friends who I was working with as an actor to be in it.
6:24
And it was all sort of just and then like then there was Saturday Night Live and that was something that I'd always dreamed of, but then I was there for a little bit and I didn't quite feel like that was the right fit for me. Yeah.
6:36
How many how many how many episodes did you or seasons did you last?
6:39
I was there like six weeks.
6:43
Yeah, I was there at the end of a season.
6:44
Um, and I wonder if that's a record. I wonder I think it is. I think it is.
6:49
Loren's got like one Polaroid of you in in a drawer in his desk that he just felonly looks at once in a while.
6:56
It's like the one that got away once you, you know, he he and Jim Downey, who is the producer at the time, it was great. They gave me a chance.
7:03
You know, I did short films.
7:04
I I made a short film for them that they bought and then but I I quickly realized like I did want to be um directing and making my own short films and that was where I started with it. Um yeah, that's fair.
7:17
You talk about that kind of um that that lack of sort of certainty and who has certainty period in anything but you know that idea of like oh which which direction am I?
7:27
I know I can do funny, but I also know that I have a dramatic spirit.
7:30
Like I know that there's emotion in there that I need to explore away from comedy. Right. Yeah.
7:36
And I think about like all the joy that you've given us by being confused.
7:39
Like Walter Midi to me is the most beautifully confused version of both of you that makes it's one in my top 10 films of all time. I love that film. Watch it all the time.
7:49
And I just when you were describing I thought, "Oh, that's multimedi."
7:52
Yeah, that's kind of like that's you figuring it out in real time, is it not? Yeah, for sure.
7:59
I mean, the you know, term feathered fish is used, you know, he never heard that term. Talk me through that.
8:05
It's like not one thing or it's not the other.
8:08
It's usually used not not sort of like a negative connotation.
8:10
But that movie I think was me trying to express my kind of film making um aspirations or ambitions things that I loved but also it was a studio movie that was also seen as a comedy too and I think that's what I would when I think about it just you know in retrospect for me it was trying to to make something that I felt really connected to that was maybe also in a that the studio saw as maybe wanting it to be something else.
8:44
Even like with Cable Guy, going back to Cable Guy, it's the same thing.
8:47
It's like Cable Guy, let's make a weird dark kind of um you know, like we watched Rowan Plansky's The Tenant and oh, let's do that comedy, which blows my mind, Ben, because you're dealing with a star at the time and you're paying him the most amount of money any male actor has had on screen for a weird dark film you're trying to make.
9:02
That in itself is such a paradox. Yeah.
9:05
Well, it it was it was the fact that he was in that position that we could make that movie and that Jim Carrey wanted to make that movie. Amazing.
9:12
Um, but that's kind of it's interesting because I never thought about it in relation to Walter Midi, but it's the same thing of sort of like trying to to fit my sort of, you know, desires not to necessarily do what maybe people were, you know, expecting in that genre or, you know, so the studio would be a little bit like, oh, well, wait, what what are you making here?
9:31
What are we well what are we marketing here? What are we marketing? Exactly.
9:34
And so that that is part of I think for me the sort of evolution of of realizing, oh, okay, this is actually what I really want to do that led to me directing other stuff.
9:45
You know, there's so much heart in that film.
9:47
I mean, it's it's such a beautiful ballet dance between the bits that that seem so ludicrous and funny and and the laugh out loud moments and right through the moments that just make you want to cry because life just seems so beautiful when you're playing football, you know, when when you when you you know, you're longboarding to to Joseé Gonzalez.
10:01
I mean, dude, that's like so great.
10:06
You just I asked Tom York once if he gets the same emotion listening to a song that makes me cry and he was like high five.
10:13
He was like, "Absolutely."
10:13
So, let me So, let me ask you this.
10:15
Like, when you were in a studio or in an editing suite and you're watching it back and you seeing your longboard and I know you you're looking at it from a you okay, is the grading okay? Is this okay?
10:23
Which which shots do I want?
10:24
But Jose is playing and you're skateboarding and you're in Iceland. Is it emotional for you?
10:31
Well, by the way, I met Tom York once like 30 years ago or 25 years ago. It was great.
10:38
I'm such a huge radio fan.
10:41
Um, and he was very nice and he I I just remember he said to me that he really enjoyed Meet the Parents and that made me laugh.
10:48
We have this image of him just sitting in his misery at all times, but he's not that guy.
10:51
Enjoying Meet the Parents. He's amazing. Um, yeah.
10:54
And no, you know, when you're making the movie, I mean, when I watch it, uh, which is not that often, but when I see it, I I can look at it and go, "Oh, yeah.
11:03
I I get that feeling cuz that's what you're going for in the editing room."
11:05
You know, I I I did a movie with Mike White a few years ago, who I think is brilliant, just an amazing writer, director, and he was talking about his editing process, and he says he just he's in the editing room with his editor with the music and the the shots and putting it together, and he's literally trying to get to a place as he puts it together where he feels something. He's going deep. He wants to feel it.
11:29
And I think that's so much of what the the editing process is when you put it's probably why it's my favorite part of film making is that when it all comes together and then you you know and you and you get that feeling for yourself and of course you can't know how an audience is going to react until you put in front of them.
11:47
But of course with anything that you're making when you can feel that in yourself you're the first audience and you have to go from there. Yeah.
11:54
It's like you know Briano says you know step number one make you know what do you like? Yeah. Exactly.
11:58
do you like? Yeah. Exactly. And that's actually something that's kind of probably taken me also a little while in my life to get around to really kind of just going, you know what, I'm I really, you know, because because it is, you know, when you start to make movies and
12:12
people go to them and start to be seen as like comedy person or whatever, you know, it's amazing to have that connection with an audience and it's fun to do, but if you do have the other stuff going on, sometimes it's harder to go in a direction where people don't necessarily see you. Yeah. Cuz your Yeah.
12:27
Cuz your identity, you've just done a whole lot of identity work that you can't control cuz we like you as that guy. Right. Exactly. Which is great.
12:35
You know, it's like I don't I I appreciate that, but it becomes down to the personal choices that you have to make as you go forward of like, okay, well, but you know, what is how do I feel about that? Yeah.
12:47
And that can be tough for uh a relationship with an audience if you want to go in a different direction.
12:53
Um, but you have to listen to yourself and you have to have the courage to do that.
12:57
And I think for a long time I didn't necessarily until I got to a place where I was like, "Oh, no, no.
13:04
I actually just want to do something that cuz I really I really want to see this movie.
13:08
I you know, personally, I I want I want to see this thing."
13:12
And and that that for me helped kind of like clarify my choices. Which film was that? What choice was that?
13:18
I think for me honestly it probably came uh down to Escape at Danamora, the limited series I did for Showtime that uh was a prison break that wasn't you know true story that wasn't a comedy and I wasn't in it and I was the first thing I directed I except for Cable Guy.
13:34
I was in Cable Guy a little bit that I wasn't in and it was so it was such a personal uh breakthrough for me because I was so happy.
13:45
I remember the first day on the set.
13:47
It's I mean it honestly going a little deep here but but just you know it's it's that thing of as an actor I you know I was so happy not to be acting and just directing and not having to direct myself or have to see myself on the screen or any of that stuff and it's like oh this is what I want to do since I was 10 years old is make movies just make movies.
14:08
So it doesn't mean I don't enjoy the other stuff or but same thing with severance too. I love I love directing.
14:14
I'm happy very happy to just be doing that job.
14:17
And actually, having directed a lot of movies I was in, I found it much more enjoyable and uh fulfilling to just do one thing and really concentrate on that and be there fully as the audience, the first audience for the for the movie that you're making.
14:33
We've benefited from that, Ben.
14:34
I mean, the the the work you've done along with the ensemble cast and the whole crew and, you know, your co-developers and everyone who's put this together, right, is is um yeah, it's a collabor it's a real collaboration.
14:45
You really get a sense of that. You really do.
14:47
And I've always worked that way, too.
14:49
And I've always worked with people who I think are really talented.
14:52
And you know, I think that's so important to to really um uh accept what people are have to give you and and take advantage of that and hopefully try to, you know, find something that you can do with them that's going to be more than the sum of its parts.
15:11
I think that's pretty clear because in a lot of your most successful films that you've been involved in either writing, directing, and starring in, you haven't necessarily been the chief protagonist.
15:19
You haven't been the main character, you know, you've often played, you know, um the character that that that people bounce things off. Sure. You know what I mean? Yeah.
15:29
I mean, also as an actor, I think, um you know, in comedies, uh I always have appreciated actors who are reactors, you know, who can Yeah.
15:38
I think that's I mean it's funny I was just watching um this is Spinal Tap all time again.
15:46
And one of the funniest parts of that movie for me is Rob Reiner, the director and coowriter with the guys, just reacting his dead pan reactions or whatever the reaction is.
16:02
And that's to to the ridiculous things that they're saying.
16:04
And that to me, uh, people like Gene Wilder, Charles Groden, um, these are like actors who I grew up watching and just just loving and and their comedic timing and it's so simple, but it's it's to me it's the most enjoyable funny thing to watch. Yeah. I didn't know.
16:22
We're uh playing some some normal dome.
16:26
I don't know what it's called down the road. It's sold out.
16:27
You know that scene like playing tonight and they're just going slowly downhill. Oh, no. No. It's so sad. It's so sad.
16:34
I don't even know what it's called to summon normal. Normod. Yeah. So funny. Yeah, I know.
16:40
That's when he goes, "Um, sorry.
16:42
I I'd love to talk, but we got to go uh sit in the lobby and wait for the It's not your job to be as stupid as good. It's a brilliant movie."
16:49
And I hadn't watched it in a long time.
16:51
And it holds up so well because it's really well acted and the story is actually really good which is these two friends, you know, who are these these kind of like this John and Paul guys who just sort of, you know, Yoko comes in between or whatever and they figure out their relationship. It's fantastic.
17:10
Um, just going back to MIDI for a split second, an important moment because I spoke to Adam Scott about at the beginning of the sort of season 2 roll out and I'm so glad we're getting to talk as N's now getting into awards season and there's talk about season 3.
17:21
So, it's beautiful book end.
17:23
Um, and he was saying how how important that that moment was because obviously the connection that you two made and how he really feels and I think I can I can speak on his behalf here. song on the record.
17:33
How um you saw something in him, I guess, from that moment that he didn't even know at the time that he had he that was he was capable of, which was leading man energy that he didn't know that he could carry, you know, with an ensemble, but kind of carry a lot more of a of a of a franchise or a movie.
17:48
At that time, he was the guy rolling in trying to steal a scene here and there if he could just to make it better. Yeah.
17:54
Well, we we had I was a fan of his from Step Brothers.
17:56
was a fan of his from Step Brothers. I saw him step which is that's just a ridiculous character who's this really awful guy but so funny and I you know Midi kind of needed this guy who was sort of the antagonist and knew he would it was sort of like it made sense from
18:16
that movie you know that I could see that but really I I just credit that Dan Ericen who wrote Severance the pilot you know when he wrote this part it was so specifically tailored I thought to what Adam could do because it it was something that was deeper underneath than what you might think on the surface. Yeah. So, let's let's talk a Yeah.
18:35
So, let's let's talk a little bit more about the the qualities of that choice and and what you're looking for when you cast because I'm really interested in how casting kind of happens. Yeah.
18:44
Because it's such an enormous part of what we end up seeing, but you got to make a decision.
18:48
I can imagine if you're like an indecisive human being, casting is not your friend cuz there's so much hanging on it if you let it get to you about how are we going to actually bring this together and make it work on screen. Yeah, it's so important.
19:00
It's so important and it's also a really big unknown.
19:02
It's like any sort of when you're casting something, you know, okay, somebody might audition or you might have a meeting or you've seen some work that they've done and so you meet them and talk to them and um as a director it's it's it's kind of an unknown sometimes because it's like a job interview, you know, you talk to somebody for an hour and you go, "Okay, I'm going to hire this person."
19:23
And then you get into the trenches of real life with and it could either work or just go really bad. Yeah.
19:28
And sort of the same thing uh with casting.
19:30
I I you have to go it's really you have to go with your instincts and your gut feeling for for me when I read that script I really thought of Adam right off the bat. Yeah.
19:43
Um working with a casting director who is a uh I work with Rachel Tenner who's I worked with for years I going back to MIDI and um you know she'll have ideas.
19:54
It's sort of an interesting thing where somebody throws an idea, you go, "Well, I didn't think of that."
19:57
But if you can be open-minded and go, "Well, wait a minute.
20:01
Okay, that it's not how I conceive of the character, but that's a really interesting way of going."
20:06
Sometimes things open up to you in a way that you would never imagine.
20:08
So, it's way more than a checklist of look, height, voice, age, all the things that you would think on the surface.
20:16
And at times the the casting process and in particular when you collaborate with a casting director often they can see something in the role that you haven't even seen yet. Yeah, for sure.
20:24
And and of course it's like a pool of actors that you know usually you know they're going to be talented people.
20:31
You know as an actor when you go out and you audition you don't get roles.
20:35
I always try to tell actors who are starting out, it's like you cannot take it personally because there's so many factors that sometimes it is a thing of like you know what this person is just not the right type or you know there's another actor who kind of looks like that actor and just it doesn't feel right.
20:51
So many things are out of your control, but ultimately it's it's I don't know what it it's.
20:58
It's like something where they're going to bring who they are to it.
21:02
And sometimes an actor can come in and blow you away in an audition and do something that you didn't imagine.
21:06
And that's the like the most exciting thing.
21:10
Sometimes an actor can do a really bad audition and still be great for the role.
21:14
I go to my friend Owen Wilson.
21:20
Um, and by the way, I'm the like the king of bad auditions because I auditioned for for years with And really like I I can tell you auditions that I tanked at the final call back.
21:27
My cousin Vinnie I I You went all the way through and then I got Yeah.
21:31
Um got to like the last call back and I was told years later by the producer, "Yeah, you were really bad.
21:37
You got really nervous and you just tanked it."
21:38
Um but Owen came in to audition for the cable guy and I didn't know him and I didn't think he did a good audition.
21:45
Um, and Jud Appeta who was producing it, uh, you know, we were had been working together a while and Jud was like, I think that guy's really funny.
21:56
I'm like, yeah, he's really funny, but the audition wasn't good.
21:58
And he said, yeah, but there's something there.
22:00
And, you know, so sometimes the and he was, of course, like then, it was my favorite scene working with him in the movie. It was so much fun.
22:08
And then we worked together forever after that.
22:09
Um, so I try to give actors the benefit of the doubt auditioning because I know I'm bad at auditioning.
22:14
Um, but it's beyond the audition.
22:16
Sometimes an actor will give you something in an audition and you don't get anything more than that. Yeah. Um, yeah.
22:21
And it's uh, isn't it interesting as well that you're sitting there watching Owen audition and I I guess you're so close to it, right?
22:30
Because it's a big deal at the time.
22:32
This is a big this is a big opportunity for you that overanalysis is naturally going to lean into is going to overshadow some instinct.
22:38
Whereas maybe Jud just has a little bit more distance to say, "Hey, you know, nothing's perfect here. You just got to Yeah.
22:46
Well, I think I I give I credit Jud just that's Jud is really good at casting.
22:48
He I mean, he's he's discovered so many amazing."
22:55
So, I really give Jud credit there for trust.
22:58
It's exactly that Jud was just trusting that his instinct was like, "Ah, this guy could do it."
23:01
I maybe was coming a little bit more out of like, "Oh, I'm the director.
23:04
If this doesn't work, you know, I wasn't that as secure.
23:08
I've got a mood board here and I got to take a step back and go like it works when I Yeah.
23:11
And also it's like a studio movie and I I was you know it's my second movie I think or something you know third movie. Yeah.
23:16
So um you know it's it's having confidence and and I think as you get older and you have more experience you tend to rely on that more.
23:26
Um, and then with something that's like a like a show like Severance, the growth that happens is just incredible in terms of how the actors then take ownership of their roles.
23:38
I want to talk about that because because we've we've we've watched that um it's such a unique experience watching severance from a casting to screen point of view because they are literally playing roles where they have to get to know themselves in the show the way we are getting to know their characters. Right.
23:54
Normally when you pick up a movie, it's like someone's 35, two kids, da da da.
23:58
They got to like be hit the ground running.
24:00
Like I'm a 35-year-old married man with two kids struggling at my job, right? You're just joining me.
24:06
You've caught up to my life.
24:08
But with severance, it's like Mark is kind of like having to get to hi is having to understand who am I any, right?
24:16
And so you're literally kind of having to trust the process like they're having to discover the pro. That makes sense. Yeah.
24:21
Also is or am I seance brain way too hard right? No, no, no.
24:23
I mean, you know, the interesting setup and severance is that the the severed floor and the the innies are in this world that we've never been in before.
24:34
So, we're sort of having to try to figure out like what the rules of this place are and what is their experience.
24:39
You know, Mark S has been there for a few years, but you know, he thinks he has it all figured out, but he really doesn't because but but he's very sheltered from because he's really only like two or three years old.
24:49
So that's for Adam as an actor.
24:52
He has to figure out what that is.
24:55
It's different than the guy from, you know, from a sitcom or something where you know all everything.
25:00
So he's having to figure out what do I know? What don't I know?
25:02
Every character has to figure out what seeps through, what doesn't seep through, what do I question, what don't I question in my world.
25:09
This is what I what I like about the show is that it brings up a lot of um issues that we have in real life.
25:13
um issues that we have in real life. the the metaphors in the show are kind of like very and that's because Dan just was is such a smart interesting writer that he came up with this idea that's like oh yeah this could be about just life in general like what are we all doing here what are you and I doing here
25:30
we're here in this room doing this thing and it's amazing but like what is it really about and where do we go after in life once we're not here anymore what is all those things to me which are really interesting are kind of encapsulated in the show yeah it's and so for an actor it's a interesting, I think, um, exciting, fun challenge to have to explore that. It's got to be a challenge
25:49
It's got to be a challenge for all of you.
25:51
I can imagine that there's been times when you've all got together and gone, okay, uh, where are we right now?
25:55
Like, how how is this making sense?
25:58
Are we are we honoring the vision?
26:00
Because, okay, as an actor, am I presenting any versus Audi correctly?
26:06
And you're like, am I am I seeing this through the lens the way that it needs to be seen?
26:10
Because it is not your linear viewing experience.
26:12
It is very multi-dimensional.
26:14
The first season of the show was fun because Adam really got to play these two different characters really, you know, even though they were the same person.
26:22
One was in such a depressed, grieving state.
26:24
Um, and just heavy and dark.
26:27
And then you know his innie was just you know not that was you know like kind of like not questioning his world and um not really a kind of a company man but not really un like not really invested the way that Irving you know John Turo's character was in terms of the theology of the place and all that.
26:46
So, it was a great sort of fun balance to go back and forth between. Yeah.
26:51
And I think that really helped us in the first season sort of establish like having those two two aspects of were so they were so clearly different really helped us sort of find our way through because it was very clear.
27:05
And then I think as the show has progressed it's gotten much more nuanced and kind of layered because there are so many different things going on in terms of his inie character and his audi character.
27:15
character. very hard to direct at times I can imagine certainly to try to kind of keep somebody um secure in their role right not in terms of you're fired more in terms of like am I am I nailing this am I understanding this like what's been what was one of the most challenging sort of scenes or moments in the show for you as a director to to sort of
27:35
capture on camera from your actors and from your crew because of the nuance of it and because of the delicacy of it man I mean there have been so we've been working on the show for a few years now and uh and we done a bunch of not that many episodes but there have been so many different um challenging interesting you know scenes. I mean the
27:53
I mean the thing that's sort of like freshest in my mind right now is the scene that Adam does in the end of the second season you know where he has this conversation with himself uh where he videotapes himself. What a dynamic.
28:07
I mean what a beautiful rising dynamic.
28:09
I mean a pot of boiling a frog in a pot of boiling water. Yeah. Yeah.
28:13
And that was, you know, challenging on the writing uh end and because we kept on rewriting it and trying to figure out like what would this conversation be and then for Adam just to be able to actually figure out how to play both sides of that. Yeah.
28:30
And having to do both sides of it and then the technical aspect of just having to all right, we're going to shoot, you know, all of your iny side now and then we're going to shoot your Audi side and then wanting it to build.
28:39
then wanting it to build. And on the page it's sort of feeling like oh this could just be like a kind of a boring you know 15inut it's like 17 minutes I think in the show and you know like in the back of my head all the time I was like god I hope this is interesting I hope this is interesting but when we got
28:55
our first cut of it together with Jeff Richmond who who edits the show you know we watched it and it was like you know it was long and it wasn't quite you know didn't get the rhythm of it totally right but it was so it was just fascinating to watch for me as an audience because of where we were in the story. So I felt like it's kind of the
29:14
So I felt like it's kind of the same way the end of the first season sort of I think paid off a lot of what was set up during the season.
29:20
This this scene was sort of we were building to this scene.
29:23
So really as long as it was, you know, done in the right way, it was going to be interesting because of because as an audience these are he's talking about these things that you really want to understand.
29:35
You've been waiting for this moment.
29:36
You've been waiting for this.
29:39
And you know, it's so interesting because it go it's it's tense. Yeah.
29:48
And Adam really was, I think, is a big part of that because he made this choice that was sort of there in the script, but I think he really dug into it of that his Audi was going to try to manipulate his innie, you know, and try to get what he wanted.
30:04
And I think and obviously his innie kind of picks up on that and it was really important because I think it it ended up paying off the very end of the episode too in terms of the choice that his innie makes um cuz he had that that conversation in his head too.
30:18
So uh but I think it all comes back to the writing honestly.
30:23
I think it all comes back to, you know, you you could do all the the best acting and directorial flourishes and all this stuff, but if if the scene is not the right scene, and if it's not something that the audience something wants, honor. Yeah.
30:35
You know, it doesn't it doesn't progress to that, then it's never going to be something that that draws you in. It's like songs. The song ain't there.
30:42
You can produce it the way you want it.
30:44
You can you can make it sound magical, but if the song isn't going to speak to me, it's that feeling we were talking about about going into like going for the It is the feeling.
30:53
The deep stuff's the good stuff, right?
30:54
Honestly, for me, it's very much the feeling. I I don't know.
30:58
It's like it's like I it's like you when you go in the editing room, it's like I I want to be in a world that I like that I want to live in, that I want to be in, that I that I like that, you know, it it's kind of a fantasy.
31:08
It's it's an escape from reality. Yeah.
31:11
But but the beautiful trait is that while you're escaping reality, you're learning more about yourself than you ever would trying to serve serve the real life that that that's on offer. Sure. Yeah.
31:19
You come out with such a much better understanding of It's so interesting.
31:25
I've spoken to so many great creative people who have no idea that they were actually digging deep at the time and they they come out and they're like, "Wow, I guess there were just some questions I needed answering and I didn't quite know where they were." Yeah.
31:35
I think it's um you know, it's about the specificity.
31:37
You can't be thinking about, oh, this is going to like be so affecting or this is going to answer those qu you just like it's the specificity of the specific scene and you know and making sure it feels real and and makes sense.
31:50
And I think that's what directing is about too.
31:52
It's kind of just you know reacting to what is in front of you a as an audience and going well this feels right. This doesn't feel right. I believe this. I don't believe that. It's just you're right.
32:03
It's just like I just know it should go two inches to the left or an inch to the right.
32:06
You just got to feel that way.
32:07
And it's easy to kind of, you know, it's almost easy to parody in a way because like the, you know, the craze director is like, I have to have it this way or that, you know, but part of it is because you're trying to create a a reality that, you know, that you can believe and fall into.
32:22
And but that other I just want to say that other aspect where you're talking about the feeling I I that's hard to explain because sometimes it's just like and that's why music is really important to me and and Teddy Shapyro who's our composer um who was did Walter Mitty too and Dodgeball and a lot of other movies.
32:42
He's so brilliant and and I love his music so much and it's it's it makes me want I like I want to live in in the world of his music and so when I put that music with the images and you get a feeling of a moment it's just like there's nothing like that you know it's magic it's magic and it changes our
33:01
chemistry I mean you know it alters our day alters what we talk about alters how we relate to people alters the course of our life we don't give that enough credit we we look at it as consumeable product it's not music art these things are like uh unfettered human experiences without any interruption. You have earned the right
33:17
You have earned the right to be able to hold the line and say with your team if we have the best in intentions we are going to present this in the way that we we mean it to be loved and that will have a pure effect on us. Yeah.
33:31
If you're coming from that place, you know what I mean?
33:33
If you're coming from a place where you're trying to do that for yourself, Yeah.
33:35
then the the the experience of having an audience watch it and feel that like that's that's like that's like an incredible feeling because you know how you feel when you watch it.
33:53
But then like that it translates to an audience and that people get that too is something that really brings you closer to other people too because you realize oh we both have that same reaction to that.
34:03
How has directing severance altered your sort of appreciation or your approach to being on screen because obviously a lot of people really know you as being an actor and um you've got some projects coming up where you you're getting in front of the camera again and so you know how is it different than it was before?
34:23
Uh yeah, I think you know it goes back to that that uh choice of saying like I only want to do things that I want to see you know and um I think yeah as an actor kind of like you know being in that world over the years and doing those movies and having fun as I started to get closer to the ideas of like what I really like what really makes me happy or what makes me excited when I watch it or you what creatively fulfills me.
34:53
I think I' I've just decided that like as an actor, I have to I don't I don't I I'm going to wait until the that comes along.
35:01
And sometimes, you know, those opportunities are are few and far between, you know, especially when you go away from acting. Yeah.
35:10
For a while cuz like the the train moves on, you know, and I I personally am not dying to see myself in anything else ever again.
35:21
like I'm not going to go like I would I can enjoy a movie that I've made as a director because of all those elements but then when I'm looking at myself it's much more complicated and harder and I Okay, tough question.
35:33
Do you find yourself funny on screen sometimes?
35:35
Can you laugh at your own performances? Yeah, sometimes.
35:38
Sometimes to be honest, you know, like I'll look back at stuff like in dodgeball or something and like I'll go, "Oh yeah, that that makes me laugh, you know, because but I also remember when we were doing it."
35:48
Yeah, I was having so much fun doing it cuz it was, you know, and so that's fun and that's great.
35:55
But, you know, as a dramatic actor or having to kind of analyze myself on screen that way, I've actually, you know what, if I'm being honest, there are things I've done that are not funny, too, that I've go, okay, I feel good about that.
36:06
And then there are things I watch and I go, I can't watch that.
36:09
Like, what was I thinking?
36:11
Um, but I think that's any actor has that, you know, and it's also you go kind of go back.
36:15
It's interesting to look back at early stuff because there are certain things I go, "Okay, yeah, that was good, but then that was awful."
36:22
And I was really trying to find figuring it out.
36:23
Yeah, I was figuring it out.
36:23
Um, what do you what do you get most?
36:25
Let's lighten it up just for a second.
36:28
What do you get sort of most if you get recognized by people in various places and they feel comfortable where they come up and talk to you, what do they what do they align you to the most in terms of what you've done?
36:40
And we're doing another one, so that's not going to go away soon. Yeah.
36:44
Um, which I I have like a complicated relationship with. I don't mind it. It's like funny.
36:51
But you're giving me one of my favorite descriptors of all time.
36:52
And I do it all the time when I'm like I talk about someone who walks in the room like they've just won the lottery.
36:58
You know that person just walks in cuz they've got good news or they've just nailed something or whatever or they've just solved the problem.
37:03
And I'm always like, man, they're walking in like Ben Stiller with Jinxy Cat.
37:08
And I see cuz that look of like, I got you. I got it. I got you. It's just a brain.
37:14
I I really I loved making those movies and I'm excited to make the next one.
37:19
But what happens when you crack up in front of Robert Dairo cuz you can't keep a straight face cuz he is so good at straightfaced comedy.
37:25
I mean, he's got to be one of the top five straightfaced comedians. Amazing. He's amazing.
37:29
Yeah, he knows he knows what he's doing.
37:31
And um it's you know, at first it was a little bit embarrassing.
37:36
It's been a It's been a while, but like the first the first scene we did I I ever together I cracked up. Which one was that?
37:42
Do you remember which one it was?
37:43
Yeah, it's a se I was at the front door and meet the parents when I meet him for the first time. Right.
37:48
And um it's literally the first thing I say to him.
37:51
I like look and I I think I was like I was like said, "Hey, I forget what the line was."
37:54
And then I looked at the house and I was like, "Oh, this is like nice."
37:57
I looked up at the house and then he was looked at me and went and it cracked me up.
38:03
I was like, "Oh my god, Robert Dairo is reacting to something I'm doing." And it's funny.
38:07
It was so It still makes me laugh cuz he's he's really funny. He's funny. But man, he's so good.
38:16
And he's But any great actor, that's what they they they they listen and they react. Yeah.
38:21
And they're in the moment. Same thing as Spinal T. Those listening.
38:25
And when you're in the moment and you're reacting to the reality of what's going on, it's that's that's the best.
38:31
So yeah, one of my one of my favorites is you and Tom Cruz in the parody of stunt the stunt man the stunt man parody and it just it just keeps giving because there there's another there's always another Mission Impossible movie.
38:40
So it just comes just it just it just keeps giving and it's just that moment when you both laugh when he laughs cuz the whole time he's just like I don't I don't even want to be next to this guy.
38:51
This guy's like just really like creeping me out.
38:52
But then when you laugh and he laughs at you it's just this I know. It's perfect.
38:59
He's just another funny guy. Yeah.
39:01
No, he's open to anything.
39:04
And, you know, that's why he's so good, too, is that he uh he's he wants to, you know, like it's that that Cruz sort of mentality of like, how do I do this right?
39:13
How do I do, you know, his intensity is almost, you have to almost not laugh at his intensity cuz it's genuine, but yeah, it's genuine.
39:19
And he has a sense of humor about it, too.
39:21
But it's like it's that, right?
39:24
It's just like look at But it's genuine. It's real.
39:26
Like he really loves movies.
39:29
Yeah, he loves and he appreciates the the process and he appreciates actors and he and he wants to comedy wise he's like you you know he's so open. Yeah.
39:39
He was but he's really good with com.
39:41
I mean Jerry Magcguire like he's always been good with it. Yeah.
39:44
Um and uh that was really fun because it was just so weird and we both it was just that that laughing like you know finishing each other's sentences just it was a very real moment.
39:55
It was just like it was just real.
39:58
It's just the intensity of the laugh.
40:00
It's like it's it's Well, it's also like if you're doing an impression of somebody and they're right there, like what better way to be able to do an impression of somebody if you can just see them doing and then just try to do what they're doing.
40:12
So, it's kind of cheating in a way, you know, but it's almost like you're you're laughing.
40:16
It's like it's like I'm I'm in pain.
40:18
It's not even like an enjoyable sadness. It's just so intense.
40:20
It's just like oh my god. Comedy is pain.
40:22
As we all know, comedy is pain. Yeah.
40:24
Um, so you're doing Meet the Parents Four.
40:27
I actually, you know, I I was really thrilled to to read that Ariana Grande is taking part there because she's so talented.
40:33
She's so talent and she is funny as well. She's amazing. Amazing and wicked.
40:37
Um, I went to see Wicked with my daughter in the theater and had the best time.
40:41
And she's I I can't really say too much about it, but she's going to be so great in this movie and it's going to be really Yeah.
40:48
It's going to be really fun to play with her because it's it's like a very specific Yeah.
40:54
character that she's playing and I think it's it's it's you know these movies are all about sort of like the inter you know family interactions and the subtlety of the things where we're trying to like kind of everybody wants to get along with everybody but we all have our baggage and you know that's that's what I like about Meet the Parents.
41:15
It's really about these dynamics that we all can connect with, you know.
41:18
Um, I've really enjoyed watching, well, I did really enjoy watching you and, uh, Timothy hanging out for a few weeks, having a good time.
41:26
Um, you talked about, you know, how you really admire younger actors who have a singular focus and are able to kind of absorb and pick things up fast and really dedicate themselves to the work.
41:35
And he immediately sprung to mind because I've spent the day with him.
41:36
We had a really great day and and I was really blown away by his um his understanding of what it is he's trying to achieve and his eye on the prize.
41:46
Well, I mean goes back to what I was saying earlier. Yeah.
41:48
You know, 29 30-year-old Ben, I was I was trying to find it and I think young actors like like Timothy who have a really clear sense of, you know, of what they want to achieve and and what it's, you know, and and the choices, it's all then becomes about the choices. Cruz did that too.
42:08
Like he, you know, made choices very early on to work with really good directors um when he could be doing a lot of different things.
42:15
And uh yeah, I think he has like, you know, he has a desire to to to to do the work.
42:19
And I, you know, from what I've seen that he's I I honestly we just hung out these games and as two like guys, he's a great Well, he's an incredible Knicks fan.
42:32
Like that's the thing that is no question he he feels it as as the millions of Knicks fans that feel it deep in their bones.
42:40
You know I I I felt for you and I didn't when I when I saw you post about your your carry-on luggage and uh it was and Tyrese had you know well you know that was before the game had not happened.
42:54
Obviously, but you know, and then Tyres, yeah, you alleyooped and you threw the ball up and he was just dunked on you in the most beautiful way.
43:00
The difference is you alioop the wrong team and you know, credit to him for the comeback and come back.
43:07
And look, it's like, you know, like when you win, you're allowed to do whatever you want.
43:12
Of course, um Trey Young can like roll his dice on the, you know, the center court at Madison Square Garden.
43:16
Um you know, I I don't uh I don't there's there's the story is not over.
43:22
No, it's not over at all. I was sad for the coach. Yeah, full transparency. Love Tibs.
43:28
Tibs, it's it's a tough one because he has gotten the Knicks further than they've ever gone before. And we all love him.
43:35
We love Tibs cuz you know that all he does is is think about how to win.
43:40
He's got great Sir Alex Ferguson energy when his team doesn't do well, right?
43:44
right? which was the the great coach of Manchester United who when who when a player would like overshoot across or or take a shot from outside the box and sky it off into the upper reaches of the stands Ferguson would be like think think you know and I just love the coaches who are just no he's
44:04
he's constantly perturbed he's like always never happy um when you see him laugh or smile we're going to miss him really going to miss him and yeah it's a tough situation I can understand people that are that I I feel it like I feel like he you know look in my mind would I've given him another year. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Sure.
44:21
But also I I you know stakes is high. Yeah.
44:24
And and the Knicks front office, you know, I I really trust that they have you know they know what they're doing.
44:29
They've gotten us to this point.
44:31
But it's it sucks because Tibs is amazing and I know he's going to end up somewhere else and um he's got to be sitting there. But he's very lovable.
44:40
He's a lovable guy and I' I've only met him once and he was really cool.
44:42
But like um you know there's so much heart on this Knicks team and nobody wants to screw it up and you know it's it's like we've gotten he's gotten the team further than they've ever been in in like last 25 years, right?
44:56
I mean it's just I just I just keep thinking he's got to be Kyle Anthony Talons right now.
45:01
is going to be sitting at home going and after all that after I did all of that right I'm f you know it's a tough it's a tough call but yeah but also credit to the team you know cat came in like you know they they traded for him like the day before training camp so you know
45:16
there's further to go with this team I'm so excited I love this team same I'm excited too I'm actually a Knicks fan and I mean going way back to you know Euing and Barkley and Starks and the whole time and then you I go all the way back to Willis Reed days yeah when I Yeah. So, you know, we we know um
45:28
So, you know, we we know um certainly from my experience, you know, uh watching them consistently, you have to understand though, this was a fluke that that Indianapolis won the series.
45:41
Okay, that first game was a fluke.
45:41
It was a lucky bounce and that and yes, the Knicks had a 20-point lead that they lost. So, that's on them.
45:48
But it came down to that lucky bounce. Okay.
45:50
And if they didn't lose that first game, it's a totally different story. Mhm.
45:56
That's your story and you're sticking to it. It's true. Okay. Did you see that bounce?
46:00
I did see the bounce, but you know, there was a good solid five games after that game where, you know, I mean, it's that's that's playoff.
46:05
I'm just saying by that game ending that way, it took it it it sucked the soul out of the Knicks and all of us there. I was there. I was there.
46:14
I was at the bottom of But this is the problem as Knicks fans that we have to acknowledge, which is that, you know, there comes a time it it was the same when with with Yuing.
46:21
What about that time when he's throwing it up and it's not going in, it's not going in. It's not going in. It's not going in.
46:26
tried five times and that was it, right?
46:28
And so we've been here before where I know, but that's that's basketball to a certain extent, but it doesn't mean that Indianapolis was so much better than the Knicks. Okay.
46:35
Yes, they have a deeper bench. Okay. All right.
46:39
But that game end that game one ends differently.
46:43
We're talking about a whole different thing here.
46:45
We're going to see if I'm not here.
46:46
I'm not available for this interview. That's right. You know what's funny?
46:48
Because I said to my produ I said to my producer, he was like, "Bing can come in in Los Angeles on Wednesday."
46:54
And I was like, I'm not sure he can.
46:56
I literally said, I'm not sure he can.
46:58
And he's like, what do you mean?
47:01
I'm like, well, if the Knicks win, he is not going to be in Los Angeles, Oklahoma City.
47:04
And he was like, let me go and check that out. He came back to me.
47:07
He was like, you are correct.
47:11
Um, it's a silver lining for me that you are here.
47:12
Um, I'm Yeah, I'm sorry about the mix and and I'm sorry for me.
47:15
I mean, it was it was a sad moment. It's not over. It's not over, man. The story is not over. It continues. That's sports, too, man.
47:21
You know, it's a heartbreaking situation.
47:22
Um, and actually I'm happy to have like more time now to concentrate on my career and my life because it's true.
47:28
You're just a professional because it really Yeah.
47:32
took over and you know I'm known more as a Knicks fan than probably anything else. Yeah.
47:36
Like how's how's Ben's acting career when he does a lot of this Nick number one.
47:39
Number one Nicks number one. Go Nicks number one.
47:42
That's all he does on camera these days and do anything else.
47:45
Maybe I'll get a job as like an assistant coach in a movie of the week about, you know, basketball or something.
47:50
Well, I I was wondering about that because you do lean into your passions and um you know, obviously with beautiful we're getting another another Meet the Parents from the franchise.
47:57
Um and we're going to get back to severance in a second, but to to to round off this particular conversation in a nice way and in the right way, but um you know, you've got all these passions and and I wonder kind of like what else you're working on, what you can tell us about that you're developing or you're excited about.
48:12
I mean, without breaking embaros, but just you know, out of interest. Yeah.
48:14
Um just you know, movies uh to direct.
48:18
I think it's been a long time working on severance wanting to uh go out and make a movie that's not a 10-hour story because that is challenging.
48:27
Um to have a beginning, a middle, and end in two hours.
48:29
Um there's uh there's a movie uh of the Rachel Maddo podcast Bagman. Oh, wow.
48:35
That I'm trying to get made. Yeah.
48:37
that we're kind of close on, which was about political story from 1973 that the vice president of the United States was a crook after Richard Nixon was a crook and was about to be impeached and these young assistant US attorneys in Baltimore stumbled onto this case where they realized the vice president was taking kickbacks and was a crook also and was about to become president. Wow. It's a great podcast.
48:58
Uh, and you know, it's kind of a story about kind of an underdog story about these young guys who are in their 20s who had to go to the attorney general of the United States and say like, "We got to prosecute the vice president." So, that's one. Wow.
49:09
And, um, gosh, there's a a World War II movie I want to make about a um, a turret gunner in a B24 gets shot down over occupied France and a survival story, how he has to get get home.
49:22
Um, that's that sounds like an epic. Yeah. Yeah.
49:27
I I love movies and I'm really excited about making something for uh for the big screen because there's nothing like going to the movies and I'm really happy that the filmmakers who are like Chris Nolan and Chris McCory and people who are like making these big you're rallying and it is it's a rally.
49:43
Let's just call it what it is in my opinion, right?
49:44
Which I wish we didn't have to say this.
49:46
I wish there was a sense of expectation that we knew what to do with films like we used to.
49:50
But I'm so glad that there's a rallying that's going on. Yeah.
49:55
Even the studio even sets program the studio feels in a really cool way like they're rallying. Yes. Yes.
50:00
Yes. Yes. And it's it's it's an ode to movies, you know, and kind of in the same way that like Walter Midi was about, you know, like about film, you know, about the idea of like actually, you know, that that the the um movies in
50:13
a movie theater when the lights go down and, you know, comedies that's one of the reasons I'm excited about Meet the Parents is that there just aren't a lot of comedies in movie theaters that that studios are willing to make and put out there. Um, and that
50:25
Um, and that I I miss that.
50:28
I think we all there's nothing like going to a comedy about that that that era where it was you and your friends and Adam and Jud and I just felt like we were getting rinsed like five or six of these films a year that were just funny.
50:40
I don't think we ever even thought that that would end you know what I mean?
50:45
Um but also there's also the the dramas that are like the sort of like you know not big budget movies like middle sort of you know kind of uh you know what in the 70s or movies like the French Connection or um you know, uh, Dog Day Afternoon Friday. Yeah.
51:01
All that dramas that would bring that were movies that brought people into the theaters.
51:06
And I think people want that.
51:07
And that's one of the reasons I went into television really and doing shows like Danamura or Seance was because you you really can't do that as much in the movies now, if at all.
51:15
And you have to keep fighting for that. Yeah.
51:20
Because before you know it, right, you're a very successful producer of television serieses and that thing you fell in love with in the first place, you didn't even realize, but it was starving. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
51:28
And uh I, you know, I feel my my generation, I grew up going to the movies, watching all different kinds of movies at theaters, and I don't think that's ever going away.
51:38
And so, it's great that there are are the filmmakers who are sticking to that.
51:42
And I think the studios want to do it, too.
51:43
They're just scared because they're trying to figure out what the economic model is that's gonna, you know, work for them. Yeah.
51:52
And streaming has upended all that. Yeah.
51:54
Um, and streaming has allowed for a lot of amazing stuff to be made, but it's also not moving.
51:59
Two things can be correct.
52:01
You can be right over here and allow someone to be right over here.
52:05
What's your prevailing memory of of what's your favorite memory of watching a film as a as a kid? What's your favorite? Yeah. What's your favorite?
52:12
I remember going to see The Exorcist when I was What year did The Exorcist come out? Like 74 or something.
52:17
I was like nine or something. Yeah.
52:18
Uh with my sister at the Chinese Theater, uh Groman's Theater in Hollywood, not telling my parents.
52:26
My sister is a few years older than me and she took me and we went and saw it. Scared to death. Still so scary. Terrifying.
52:34
And then my parents getting mad at us cuz cuz I couldn't sleep and I wanted to go sleep in the bedroom or something. The veneer falls away. It was so visceral.
52:44
Um and then also um seeing Poseidon Adventure in the theater. I remember that too.
52:50
I remember I went I actually ended up going to see it about 15 times in the theater when it came out.
52:55
I remember crying at the end of that film.
52:56
I remember just being overwhelmed by by the by the Incredible. Yeah. Amazing.
52:59
the by the Incredible. Yeah. Amazing. um as we get as we get closer to uh what will be the return of severance and I and I say that with hope and um and I know I'm rushing you a little bit because you got things to make but there's been a little bit of talk in the
53:11
press recently about the language is sooner rather than later and and I think everyone's acknowledged that you know there were a lot of factors that played into the into the delays on season 2 which by the way is such a beautiful problem to have when people are complaining about how long it took for something to come back. It's like at the
53:24
It's like at the very essence of it we just want it.
53:25
So that's all been cleared up.
53:27
So, what does the road for the for the for the show look like now?
53:31
Um, with you we being so busy, but there's a desire to start to pick up on these these questions and what answers we have and get closer.
53:37
Yeah, I mean the the desire is always to get it back on on the air as soon as possible.
53:43
Um, it's always been a complicated show in terms of uh just figuring out how to do it and and and um we're in that process now.
53:51
We're we're in the uh writing process and going to go to production as soon as possible.
53:58
Um and you know, it's just the creative process on these things cuz you do want it to be good.
54:05
When we were in the middle of se of season two and it was dragging out.
54:09
It was going I you know, so many times I thought, "Oh god, I just wish we could just get this thing out sooner."
54:15
But then it was that sort of uh conundrum of like, but we need to make sure that it's good when it comes out. Yeah. Yeah.
54:22
And we have the luxury in streaming of being able to take time in between seasons.
54:27
You know, shows on network television have never had that.
54:32
So, I'm grateful for that, too, that we have the time to, but it's not something that I don't think, you know, no one should ever think that we're kind of just, hey, we're just going to take our time.
54:41
It's like, it's not like that.
54:42
We're we always are wanting to get it back out there just because you want to keep the continuity.
54:45
And my hope is that um in the future on the show in terms of seasons that it's, you know, what the the work that we're doing now is going to help that cadence.
54:58
Speaking of cadence, as we draw, as we draw to the end, Ben, um you know, you're working on a show that that falls into really rare air, which is like you have to decide what we know when we know it, and you have to make it interesting enough for us to not feel like we're just lost here, right?
55:14
Um, the most obvious, the most obvious example, which kind of gets a little bit too much of a tough kicking, but it's kind of true, was Lost, right?
55:21
Lost was so good for so long.
55:22
And then in the end, I just felt like, oh man, I think you've dragged this a couple of seasons out.
55:25
I'm more lost than I was three seasons back.
55:27
But Lost is that what I was saying. That was a network show.
55:31
They were making 22 or 24 episodes. That's right. The was different. Yeah.
55:35
They had no They had to come on every September. What? So imagine that. Yeah. Yeah.
55:38
And that's why I say we have this luxury to be able to like at least take the time to figure out what we think it should be.
55:44
out what we think it should be. So as a director though and a part of the team that puts it together writing and conceptualizing with everybody the collaborative effort as you rightfully have called it um you know as challenging and enjoyable as it is um
55:55
what what is the sort of the unique attribute of working on a show like that knowing that you have to kind of present something to us which gives us just enough but also probably asks a completely separate question that then diverts our attention while this thing gets kind of you know it's such a dance. It is. It is. Well, it's also a like a It is. It is.
56:10
Well, it's also a like a gift, too, because you're like h how lucky are we that we have a show that when season 3 does come out that there will be people who are waiting to see it?
56:24
I mean, honestly, that's like probably the most challenging thing making stuff these days is there's so much out there.
56:30
Video games, phones, movies, TV, everything.
56:34
to have something that you know there's going to be an audience waiting for it and they're going to be critical and they're going to be you know like you know really ready for it and and asking questions and you need to make sure it's good but they're there. Yeah. Yeah.
56:48
We're waiting and for me that's like the gift.
56:50
So uh it's just again going back to that instinct inside for all of us who are making the show like what do we want to see? What interests us?
56:58
What do we think will be surprising?
57:01
What do we think will be true to the show?
57:03
And what is, you know, it is a question on a show like this.
57:07
What is the heart of the show? Is it the relationships?
57:08
Is it the the the mystery?
57:10
Is it, you know, what is Lumen up to? All those things.
57:14
There's so many different aspects.
57:14
Well, I asked Adam this and I said to him, "Do you know what what Lumen does?" He was like, "Yeah."
57:20
And there was this pregnant pause and he was like, "Did you want me to tell you?"
57:23
I was like, "That's not a good idea.
57:23
I don't want to be the podcast that reveals the whole thing up front."
57:27
But but I'm I'm going take the question one step further uh now that we're done and and say you know um from the minute you start to the minute it all comes to its natural conclusion the ride is over and we all like look at it hopefully and put a ribbon on it and say that's all great.
57:41
Um is it clear to to to a few of you what the arc is?
57:44
Is it very very clear what you're working towards? For sure. Wow. Yeah.
57:48
And um it had you know it ultimately the show is like we're human beings right so I feel like ultimately the human connection is what it's all about the human experience and on to me anything that I ever watch is it's always on an emotional level when something hits me on an emotional level moves me makes me feel connected to the world or to other people in some way the stuff we were talking about earlier that's That's what it's all about.
58:19
And And I think that's always been like sort of what the for me what the point of the show is.
58:25
It's been really Is that giving That's not giving anything away.
58:28
No, I was I was really monitoring it cuz I'm terrified as well. [Music]