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hello everyone and welcome back to conversations with Tyler today today I'm chatting with Amy Vitali she's a National Geographic photographer writer speaker and documentary filmmaker she's been a wartime conflict photographer for about 10 years she is an important figure in the animal conservation movement and she's traveled to more than
a hundred countries she's author of the 2018 best-selling book pandal love and she is founder and director of a new nonprofit for Arts education around the world called vital impacts you can see her work on her homepage if you Google her that's Amy Ami Amy Vitali and also on Instagram Amy welcome thank you Tyler it's wonderful to be with you today why
is it that human Panda Keepers dress up as pandas well the thinking was that pandas should never be comfortable around humans because humans are one of the biggest threats to most wild animals and in this case these were captive born pandas who were being trained to go back to the wild because after one generation in
captivity they do not know how to survive in the wild and so the lucky pandas that were chosen to be a part of this program they didn't want them interacting with humans and the main point about it is that these costumes it was more pandas go by smell not sight so the panda costumes were actually sent ented with panda urine the thought was
that they should not know that humans were around them so you and I should stay scary to the pandas we should stay scary to the pandas and I don't know if it worked but I thought it was a creative idea in in China's efforts to get these pandas off the endangered species list now I understand that in the 1960s the survival rate for panda
babies was pretty low I think you mentioned once 30% and right now it's about 90% what accounts for that difference what is it we're getting right now well it's such a great story I mean the truth is I think the most important thing is that they did a great job of making the world fall in love with pandas and more importantly the
people living closest to the pandas pandas were poached for a long time and I think harsher policing harsher laws if you poached a a panda and then really just making the world fall in love with this this creature really did a lot for panda conservation and then there was another piece which was they understood that the pandas were endangered in the
wild and so they did a few things they had a a breeding program because they wanted to have the number was 300 pandas in captivity in case they went extinct in the wild and it was actually they managed to crack the code learn how to breed them in captivity and now are releasing them back into the wild and
then the last important piece of it is China is one of the few countries in the world where Forest coverage is actually growing and they are reforesting areas connecting existing corridors where pandas live so that they can move you know when there's there's droughts and there's bamboo die offs and and basically giving them space to survive
that is probably the most most essential thing we can do around the world for all of wildlife speaking of breeding can you explain to me the dorinian equilibrium with pandas if I have this right the females are fertile for only a few days a year and actually pandas themselves don't already know how to do it why would they have evolved that way how
does that make sense I actually think that's a bit of a myth you know they were thought to be a species without a sex drive but actually the truth is they're just very elusive animals and they do have this tiny window to breed and when the the factors in the wild are not so difficult for them they're they're fine I think a lot of it was
deforestation you know habitat fragmentation and that was a huge piece of the breeding in the wild but then in captivity they were trying to breed them for about two decades with no success and they didn't realize these two factors one that they have this tiny window and two that the females need choice to breed so they can't you just
can't put any old male Panda together with them and once they kind of realize these two things they have a very successful breeding program and now scientists are rethinking this idea about this species without a sex drive they do what's the proper allocation mechanism for pandas across countries across zoos so I'm sure you know the US
is about to lose its pandas yes who should decide how pandas get allocated that's a great question I mean to be honest I I think it's really a symbol of our relations and I think many people know this but the panda was you know gifted in the beginning they were gifted to countries and used as a diplomatic tool and the first one was
gifted to Nixon I believe in this country I mean I'm not a politician so I don't know but I I get the sense that it is symbolic of of what's happening between our Nations I don't know the answer to this but I think that the Chinese own these bears and it's it is their choice to do and to loan them to whatever you know this is this is their their
choice do you think animals have rights of privacy at all oh wow I mean now we're getting into territory that honestly I I wish we didn't have to have captive animals ideally we would not I don't myself enjoy seeing animals in captivity and I think that we've come to such a place that in order to keep species alive the reason that some
species are still here with us today are because of scientists sort of seeing into the future and a lot of great conservation efforts are happening because of of zoos I mean let's switch just now to the case of the northern white rhinos they would actually be extinct right now if it were not for in the I believe it was the 60s I I'm not sure on that but the
the Klo vou brought Northern white rhinos from the wild into the Sue and if it were not for them they would now be extinct so I have really mixed feelings about all of this until we get a better into a better place as human beings I I I see a value but not all zoos are the same not all captive animals are the same and I think
we also need to change our understanding I think Jane Goodall and many other people have have figured out that these creatures are sentient they're intelligent life and I actually was just speaking to a woman that did research on dolphins and she said something very interesting dolphins have been around for many many millions of years and she
believes that they have evolved not just to have this heightened sense of empathy but she believes that they actually understand that another dolphin's suffering is their own suffering and I really I love thinking about this I love this idea that if we as humans can really start to understand that all of our suffering is the
suffering of others animals understand that I think elephants understand that I've I've witnessed that with orphaned herds and how much they care for each other I think my great hope for Humanity is that we too can evolve to really understand and feel one another's suffering and joy and that that to me is the only way we're going to exist in the future now
as you probably know there's a long-standing and recurring set of debates between animal welfare Advocates and environmentalists and the Animal Welfare Advocates typically have less Sympathy for the Predators because they in turn kill other animals the environmentalists are more likely to think we should in some way leave nature
alone as much as possible where do you stand on that debate it depends it depends what it's hard to make a general sweeping statement on this because in some cases I think that we do have to get involved and I think also the fact is it's humans in most cases who have really impacted the environment and we do need to get
engaged and work to restore that balance but I really fall on both sides of this and I will say you know I do think that is in some cases what differentiates us because we you know as beings like we have to kill to to survive and maybe that is where you know this I feel like every story I work on has a different
answer and really I don't I don't know it depends what the situation is should we bring animals back to Landscapes where they have not existed for you know millions of years I I fall on the line of of no and maybe I'm taking this in a totally different direction but yeah it's it's really complicated and there's not one easy answer we have another
conversations guest Stuart brand as you probably know he is trying to bring back for instance the woly mammoth why shouldn't we do it and the dodo and the thyine um and more to come perhaps right well you know when I first heard about the story to bring back these extinct species I thought it was a waste of money and insane and then
I actually met people from the Colossal projects and I I've really changed my thinking on this I think that they in some cases I don't know that they'll get there in our lifetime but they have a really good argument for the woolly mammoth they believe that bringing species back to Landscapes where they've been gone on can serve in this a
function in the same way bringing wolves back to Yellowstone is so it restores the ecosystem and restores that balance that is missing and so they believe that by bringing the woolly mammoth back you know they will churn up that soil and you know kind of serve in in the way that bison served and you know in the in
the Landscapes here in Montana the same thing happened I'll explain that a little more that you need to keep that land healthy and you know when you when you don't have the Hooves and the the animals grazing and and working that landscape it actually starts to suffer and so you need all these animals to create a healthy ecosystem when you take
out the keystone species the whole land starts to suffer and it trickles down to all the different species so their thinking is by bringing the woolly back it's going to restore the landscape I actually think they have a much more interesting uh function which as a company they actually are working with species that are close to extinction but
are still here for example they're teaming up with the northern White Rhino and the bio rescue project and they're going to be using their by basically adding genetic diversity back to the embryos that they've created so the fire rescue project has created 29 viable embryos that they'll use southern white rhino surrogates to restore this species
they only have two Northern White Rhino females alive and they're using just one female her eggs to create these embryos they need more genetic diversity and colossal is able to go into Museum specimens and add genetic diversity I think that they have a a really important value and whether woolly mammoths are brought back maybe will
happen in hundred years from now I don't know if we'll see this in our lifetime maybe we will but I think that there's value more for the species that are currently here we need to help the species these Key Stone species because actually I've seen it I've seen environment like I work a lot in Northern Kenya and there are Landscapes
where keystone species have been locally extinct for about 30 years and you really see how it starts to impact the entire ecosystem and then I've seen the reverse where they brought back these animals to these ecosystems and it's amazing how resilient nature is when they when they give it a chance you bring it back you we've seen examples in
Yellowstone in Northern Kenya when they brought rhinos and elephants back to these Landscapes and literally within 5 10 years you start to see the whole environment start to heal for example elephants like tread up that grass they're like huge mobile composting units the grass starts to grow other species return Then You Know It
ultimately helps human beings so I I I see all of us I think that's the main thing is like how do we start to see that we are part of this beautiful web and that every piece matters so back to Stuart and and his work with colossal I I see a value in it and I was very suspicious because you know it's you know I think very often people use
these headlines to get to get attention and you have to kind of read through the headlines and really understand what is is happening and in this case I I see some value there now you have a movie on your homepage which I would recommend to everyone where you're spending a lot of time photographing and filming rhinos
why isn't that more dangerous than it seems to be well the Rhinos that I'm working with were born in captivity sadly so they are used to humans I don't recommend working with wild rhinos in the same way and actually these rhinos know my smell they know who I am I been working with them now for over 15 years but you know I think the saddest part of
the story is the loss of wild there are no more wild Northern white rhinos and I would say you know that to me is the biggest tragedy I feel like when we you know it's not just the loss of an ecosystem which is you know important in itself you know on this other level I feel like we are losing something so so much a part of ourselves like we're
losing what it means to be wild we are animals too and when we lose all these wild animals we're losing what it means to be wild and I I on a philosophical level I realize it's it's like a loss of Wonder and the wild of who we are when we lose so many species I'm sure all your listeners understand that we're going through the six mass extinction
which is you know purely hum driven and to me it's like I I feel like we're losing a piece of ourselves right now do Kenyon villagers wish there were more Elephants or fewer elephants around oh great question it depends who you ask and I I I'm glad you brought up Kenya I think Kenya is one of the greatest success
stories right now so they have really made this incredible shift from you know 20 30 years ago they all all of their you know rhinos and elephants and so many other species were being poached to Extinction and Kenya made this big shift so today the greatest threat to these species is not poaching it is actually climate
change and how did they do it how is Kenya so different from other countries well it I think it's a a few things it's greater policing uh stricter laws but the main thing is there is community engagement in protecting these creatures the communities living closest to the animals understand their value to them and so you know during the pandemic when
the tourism stopped and so many other countries were facing poaching levels that had never been seen for example in South Africa during the pandemic over 400 rhinos were poached guess how many rhinos were poached in Kenya zero why is that it's because the communities understood that they need these wild animals not just for healthy
ecosystems for their own Survival they understood that you know that tourists need you know they need them for tourism they need them for a healthy ecosystem so it's not that these animals are you know difficult they will come in and eat Farmers crops in one day that they've spent months you know cultivating these animals are dangerous
they're wild animals they present threats to people I think in the west we no longer understand what it means to live with wild animals people in many places around the world understand what it is to live with wild animals but I think Kenyans actually understand that they need to protect these animals and the government is more involved in
trying to support communities when elephants and rhinos and you know there's loss of life loss of crops and they're trying to actively figure out ways how do you coexist with these these creatures but I love that you brought up Kenya because you know honestly as for Ur it is a place that all of us can go our tourism dollars can make a huge
impact you know I think as we're all in this you know big ecosystem and we need to figure out where we should support conservation efforts and Kenya is one of them because if you take the time to figure out where your tourism dollars are going to support communities that is going to have a huge impact on the how the communities take care of the
wildlife what did you find to be most surprising or most interesting in the culture of the samuru in Northern Kenya well I I keep learning but I think that they teach me so much you know I think that it's really important to remember the communities living with the wildlife are their greatest protectors and that is the case with the
samburu certainly I met them gosh now it's 13 14 years ago and they had a dream back then to protect the wildlife that Community also suffered gangs of poachers coming in and poaching the wildlife and this was a community pushing back and saying we need to protect the wildlife because we need them for our own Survival too and so
Against All Odds you know they they created the first indigenous owned elephant sanctuary in all of Africa and you know back when I first met them it was just a dream and many people laughed at them and thought there's no way you're going to be able to make an elephant Sanctuary because they're expensive and you don't have the
political power you don't have the funding but they did it and I've been following Along on their journey and it's it's really extraordinary it's called retti elephant Sanctuary I hope anybody interested who has the means can go and visit this place because what they're doing is changing not just how people there relate to wild animals but
how they relate to each other it's also the first elephant Sanctuary that hires indigenous women to be elephant Keepers in a very patriarchical society and it's transforming a lot and they've you know they're they're doing things differently there it's so interesting like another story they've made huge impacts in our
understanding of elephant behavior and also one of the great discoveries during the pandemic was they were worried about what would happen so when an elephant is orphaned they have to switch overnight from drinking its mother's milk to drinking a powdered milk formula that is really made for human babies and 50% of the time around the world in all
elephant sanctuaries that is the most dangerous time for Orphans they come into the sanctuary and they often can't handle that trans transition from drinking their own mother's milk to a powdered milk formula and so 50% of the time they die so Vetti got worried during the pandemic about what would happen if we can't even get a hold of
the powdered milk formula because of Supply chains breaking down so they started looking at nature for Solutions and they discovered that goats eat the same brows the same vegetation as elephants do they started experimenting and they made perhaps one of their greatest discoveries they went from a 50% survival rate to a 98% survival rate
so now these babies come into the sanctuary and they're able to make that transition and then another piece of the story which I love is that all that money that was being sent outside the country to big multinational milk companies are now that money is all staying within the community and I went with the the milk mamas is what they call them it's the
women samuru who own the goats and they set up bank accounts for the first time in their lives they're able to send their kids to school to have money for health care it's absolutely changing the whole community and the and the people there always tell me it's not us saving the baby elephants the elephants are
saving us and I just love watching all the discoveries they keep making and they have had a long relationship over Generations you know living with wildlife and they have so much I think to teach all of us I think there is this great understanding happening around the world that there's so much knowledge we as you know westerners I think to start
listening to some of the knowledge that is right there with the people living closest to these creatures now you did Conflict photojournalism for about 10 years I mean risk aside was it fun no why do it for 10 years oh I think it was the Extraordinary People I met and it began because I just wanted to understand this world and why
we have this so much suffering and how did these conflicts emerge I'm I was never one of those Adrenaline Junkies I mean so many of my friends really you know hopped from one conflict to the next and it was like parachute journalism and I in the beginning uh started my career and I was asked to go to uh actually the first conflict I
covered was Gaza and then I was asked to actually know the first was Kosovo and and the Balan conflict and then to Gaza and the second inada and you know I actually immediately understood that I could not do parachute journalism that it is really important to take time to understand these stories that we're covering and I think what I mean I ended
up living in in Kashmir for four years to cover the war between India and pakist Pakistan and taking that time to listen to truly hear people's stories but I think what drew me in was the people I met I mean I I'm always shocked at in these places that are so brutal where you see the worst of humanity I also met the people the best of humanity
that taught me so much they kept me coming back and I think after 10 years of that that's when I really shifted and I I I was broken and raw and wanted to quit and it was then I really began to realize this connection that you know I had been telling these stories about people in The Human Condition but at the backdrop of every single one of them was
always the natural world and that was my profound Awakening I think when I began to understand that in every sing single example well not every example but in many of them it was scarcity of basic resources like water and others a changing climate and loss of fertile lands but almost always it is the demands placed on our ecosystem that
drives conflict and human suffering and I think that that was my big shift and and understanding that it was important to talk about the conflicts but it was equally as important to talk about what we're doing to this planet because you can I mean just in this last year alone how many more conflicts have started around the
world how many more coups and I think in Africa just this year maybe the last six months is it six or seven more coups and I mean Tyler you know this better than I but I see it and I I think to not acknowledge that connection is ignorant we need to start paying attention to that and I think we're going to see so many more conflicts if we do not pay
attention and to focus on what do we do it's not enough as a journalist that was something else that made me deeply uncomfortable which is I was asked to focus on the violence show just one piece of the story and never was I asked to tell the stories that acknowledge like where we go what do we do where are the Solutions are their Solutions I know
there's no easy balm and no solution for so many of these problems but the truth is in every story I've covered there are amazing people who are working to try to find answers but we don't highlight their work and I think as journalists we have to do a better job of not just talking about the challenges we face but
like where do we go from here what do we do and there are people in every single story that we need to to focus on their stories as well what was it you did in year nine to keep yourself from going crazy from the stress the destruction the sorrow so you did this for 10 years right you enter year nine it must be very tough well in year nine no I was
broken and honestly I I didn't know what to do in year nine it was either I mean I was very depressed and uh didn't know whether I would carry on and many times I thought about quitting and it was actually in those examples in year nine I realized that I had examples when I realized the power of what we do that stopped me from
quitting I realized it was in those moments when you want to quit that you never give up because what we do is actually very powerful and I had examples of seeing you know the fact that I always chose to go to tell stories that not a lot of journalists were covering and I realized that sometimes it was getting those images
back into the international you know dialogue it was important and that's when I needed to stay but I think in year nine you didn't want to know me I was really depressed and not in a good place and then I think year 10 I realized that's when I really understood that one I needed to take a break and step away from covering the hores of the
world because I was not able to think clearly and I think that actually that is how so many of my colleagues end up getting killed because you don't know when to stop and take a break because you need to be 100% present and and clear about what's happening in front of you and I think if you're you're so so broken you can't do that and so in year
10 I took a break and in that break a conservation organization approached me and asked me to do work talking about forests and how important they are and that's also when I began my story on the Northern white rhinos that was the moment I began to understand that connection to the natural world and that I needed to also tell the stories about
the natural world and how connected they are to all of these conflicts I believe you started your career photographing business people was that fun no I did not enjoy it at all but I did enjoy I moved to the Czech Republic in a very exciting moment in their history I I went and did a study abroad in 1990 and then ended up in in the Czech
Republic in 1991 and that was a tremendously exciting time to be there I knew I wanted to go back and so in 1997 I returned to go and work for a small business newspaper and I got to meet really interesting people vatslav havl and you know that that there was this moment right after the wall had come down and it was this this moment of so
much hope and it was exciting very exciting to be there and you know that quickly shifted to quitting my job and covering the war in the Balkans in in 1997 almost you know n nine months later I was there as conflict was unfolding and ended up quitting that job and becoming a war photographer Without Really knowing what I was doing but I
just something inside of me knew I had to go some questions about photography what is lost with the switch from film to digital well it's funny I think a lot of people lament the loss of film but I tell you when I began my career the reality is I was carrying film chemicals a blow dryer to dry the you know the
roll of film that was hanging in my hotel room a scanner a huge scanner and then I was up all night trying to transmit one to two images per night from working in these remote places so I don't lament the loss to be honest because right now digital has trans formed our world we can go into the world and and you know bring back these
really important news stories from the field transmit them faster than we ever have and I mean there's a whole other list of issues we have to talk about with AI but to me I think you know honestly it's probably better for the environment I think about all the chemicals we dumped into the the planet and yeah there is a loss of like that
beautiful texture and the you know every image was unique but I I think that there's no time in human history where as as creatives we can create anything we want and we can you know from a Cate creative perspective we can still create Unique Images and and create anything we imagine at the same time then I as a journalist with my journalist hat I
worry about authenticity and what are we going to do to make sure we have ways of identifying when images are authentic and have not been manipulated and I think that both camera companies and the the companies like Adobe who do post-processing manipulation are working to be able to figure out how we can create these
stamps on the images to know their authentic but I think we're in troubling times right now and you know taking your question into a totally different space I mean I I worry more about Ai and what it's doing to to the trust of you know how do we know what's real and and misinformation we're entering new Waters right now that are terrifying so I think
more about that than I think about the loss of film now as you know there's now social networks everywhere for quite a while images everywhere even before mid Journey that there's so many images that people are looking at how does that change how you compose or think about photos well it doesn't at all I mean my
job is to tell stories with images and not just with images I mean my job is a Storyteller that has not changed and nothing has changed in the sense of I I think we need more great storytellers visual storytellers with all of those social media I think people are bored with just beautiful images or you know like sometimes it feels like
advertising and it doesn't it doesn't Captivate me I I look for story and image and I am just going to continue doing what I do because I think people are hungry for it they want to know who you know is really going deep on stories and and who they can trust and I I think that that has never gone away and it will never go away so I actually enjoy
having social media because I think it's it's allowed me to connect with people in a in a really real way that I never could have connected with there was always the the media that we worked for and I could never connect with people and now I have this onetoone connection and people it is individuals who have empowered me sometimes to go and
continue telling the stories that I tell today I think that you just have to be adaptable in today's world and and keep adapting to this changing you know the changing Landscapes that we're dealing with I always think about stories how do we tell the stories in a really deep meaningful way I think visual images by the way have never had more reach and
power than they do today and I love I will you know always love the power of what we do because I think that we can reach people both you know intellectually but also with our hearts and and that is really important what would be an example of a photo by others that truly has mattered to you oh gosh I mean my first example
is Steve Winter's image of P22 which is a leper that um he photographed below the Hollywood sign and this story is so incredible he dreamed of this image 10 years before he even took it and when the problem was is that he talked to the scientists all working in this landscape and they said Steve there's no leopard I mean there's no cougars in this
landscape you know you can dream it but there's no cougars there and he said you know I I'm just going to try and he set up camera traps for over a year underneath the Hollywood sign and dreamt it dreamt this image and sure enough he was right there were cougars in this landscape and the problem is that they
were separated from habitat across 10 lanes of traffic and his one image is what actually was the Catalyst to create the world's largest Wildlife overpass so for people that don't think images can change the world or help and be a catalyst for for positive changes let me point you to Steve Winter's image it is memorable you can't forget it once
you've looked at it and it's also I think a lot of these images push all of us as photographers to become Advocates Steve has set up a a great nonprofit that Vates for big cats around the world and the struggles they face and I think for a lot of us you know the truth is as photographers we are usually introverts we're usually shy we like being behind
the camera I don't enjoy being in the public eye but once you take these powerful images you realize you these images and the stories give us voice and we have to go and then advocate for what we see and so so yeah that's that's one story and there's so many more the famous photo of the greeneyed girl from Afghanistan what do you think
of it well you know I I think now we're hearing stories about you know the truth of that image and the the woman she's now an adult that she was a girl that was photographed and I I think it's an important lesson for photographers especially when we're going and photographing out of our own communities out of our own cultures to tread lightly
to understand where you are and so photography can be very powerful and give voice and amplify people's stories it can also be tremendously exploitative and Colonial and all of these horrific things come with photography and so you know I think that I really pay attention and and it doesn't matter where you are
but you need to take the time to first get the blessings of the people you're photographing let them understand why you're there what you're doing and to be sensitive and I think that is an example of it like maybe this is a wonderful photographer who took all these pictures that are iconic but in in this case we're hearing now the stories that it
was traumatic for the girl that was photographed and I think it's really important to understand that for anybody with a camera that it is it can be a weapon in many ways and can be it can be really exploitative and a lot of cultures believe that photography takes a piece of their soul and even the samuru the community I work in they also
say that like it you know photography can take a piece of our soul and so when I'm working in places I pay attention to these stories of the photographers that went before me and I make sure that that people really want me there I need to know I have their permission and I think that is something all of us need to really reflect on and pay attention to
Susan sag once wrote about photography and I quote it is mainly a social right a defense against anxiety and tool of power unquote do you agree or not absolutely absolutely and I also ask myself every time I'm taking a picture what gives me the right to be taking this picture and I also believe it is important to ask you know this question
who gets to take the picture is is very important I work a lot right now to try to bring cameras to the communities that I spend a lot of time working in so they can own their stories as well you know I it's it's not that I think it is wrong for Outsiders to take take pictures and tell stories I think first of all you
need to make sure you have permission to be there I think it's important to have a multitude of viewpoints sometimes Outsiders can give great perspective to a story but you need to have the permission the blessings of the community first and foremost and then I also ask like well you know in today's world with all of these platforms and
ways of sharing stories why shouldn't the people whose stories you're telling be able to tell their own stories and I'm trying to do everything I can with my nonprofit to give the tools and give access I mean I think that we need to hear the stories from everybody because the only way we're going to become you know create a more Equitable world and
get to a more balanced world is by having that multitude of of voices and people uh sharing their own stories can National Geographic still have a major cultural footprint in a world with Instagram and other images is the question do they can they do they oh I think they do I mean how many followers do they have they do and
they need to really be careful with that I mean it's a great responsibility too with that great power of reaching so many people I think they're an organization in great transition they've been bought by Disney they need to really pay attention to where they're going I think they are trying to I I think it's important to differentiate
between National Geographic society and National Geographic which one is a nonprofit leg of it and one is a profit for-profit side and I think that you will see slightly different missions and work coming out of both both sides of of that institution now you've traveled to over a hundred countries as I have also actually and I I've met quite a few
people have done that and so many of them they insist to me that all they really want to do is relax and I never believe them at the margin what is it now you want to see more of well I don't want to relax if you're not feeling anxious about the state of the world right now I I I think you have your head in the sand and in some ways I
can understand wanting to put your head in the sand because it's hard understanding what's what's happening I want to stay engaged I think that there has never been a need to be engaged in the world and I think walk towards the things that that scare you embrace them Embrace fear uh walk towards communities and people that you
don't understand I think Tyler you may know this as somebody who's had the privilege of traveling as much as you have that we need more understanding truly listening to each other and understanding of the people and the things that are different than than what we know and so I do not want to relax right now I I want to empower others to
to share their own stories and I don't need to travel as much anymore I actually think that I can do a lot of work right here from home and maybe my imprint on the world can be by supporting others to tell those stories but yeah I I one day want to interview you is that possible because absolutely anytime all right what may I ask you may
I reverse that question and ask you how do you feel you mean about relaxing I don't ever want to relax I would prefer to die with my boots on as they say and maybe at some point my health will force my hand but until then I say full steam ahead absolutely love it yes but let's say you had two free weeks gifted to you doesn't interrupt your
work responsibilities and a private plane green efficient whatever it will bring you where you want for two weeks where do you pick well I let the stories guide me so it depends what would be happening where uh my work would be of greatest value and you know I I think it's usually the long-term stories so I tell stories over
time I think stories need time to evolve and it's probably going to be back in Northern Kenya I think that we will see a northern White Rhino baby in our lifetime and I suspect it will be to to get back there quickly to witness the birth of a northern White Rhino baby that's my great hope wonderful great who first spotted your talent and how did
they see it that would be my professor Rich Beckman who not only spotted it but cultivated it nurtured it has been my guide for now 35 years or more and uh oh more oh that's frightening and you know really help me see the opportunities for somebody that I I couldn't get a job in the beginning because I wasn't a proven talent that would be him and then
there's so many people along the way who have trusted me given me access to stor yeah there's there's a lot of names there Tyler if you couldn't get a job at first how is it you were hired how did that happen oh it was because it was in the world of uh that shift from film to digital where I could then send in
pictures and very often people thought I was a man and so in the beginning I was able to do the work that I do because people didn't really know that I was a woman I would always get letters back dear sir and I think you know in the beginning a lot of people told me I didn't belong there I shouldn't be there and I'm so proud that we've made a great
change in the last 20 years we still have a ton of work to do but I I think that in today's world there's probably more female photographers and journalists um out there get graduating from schools than than there are men and I'm glad about that because I think that it changes the way the world looks books but I think we need to work harder to
create more to make it more Equitable for you know a lot more diversity coming out of Journalism school right now now you must meet plenty of young photographers obviously you look at their photographs but when you meet them think about them what are the non-obvious qualities you look for for who could be important obviously they
should have a good work ethic but what would be non-obvious what gets you excited oh I mean ethics and empathy and sometimes it's the really shy people that may not have a lot of self-confidence and I recognize who I was when I started and realized that we all have great capacity within ourselves and I was written off in the beginning
because I was so shy and people didn't think I had What it Took and actually those are the people that I want in the field the sensitive Souls the people that are you know not thinking it's about them they don't have large egos I actually want them out in the world telling the stories and I I am the underdog I'm always getting behind the
underdogs in the world I sometimes say that introverts make the best extroverts but how did you move from being so shy by your own account to now what at least superficially seems to be not shy at all I think it was being allowed to tell the stories and then realizing that people wanted to hear the story so I think I
didn't really get a strong voice until very recently when I was asked to become a speaker and I think that the first few talks that I gave were terrible but then with a little bit of confidence and realizing the the beauty in these stories and the and the power of sharing them that it could Inspire so many other people to remember that it was never
about me that I'm just the messenger that gave me great great confidence and I think it was actually that part of when I was being forced to get on stage and get in front of the camera that that's where I really got my confidence final question what is it you will do next oh well I I have uh many projects but we're launching our our next
campaign to support getting elephants that were orphan back into the wild so I'm I'm launching that I have a film also that's going to be opening at the American Museum of Natural History in New York as part of their elephant exhibition and so uh next next work is all around elephants and of course the northern White Rhino I keep going back
for that Amy Vitali thank you very much and for all our listeners and readers please visit Amy's homepage just Google Amy Vitali that's Ami there you will find references to her books her movies her photographs and also her new nonprofit Amy thank you thank you so much Tyler thanks for listening to conversations with Tyler you can
subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app if you like this podcast please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review this helps other listeners find the show on Twitter I'm @ Tyler Cowan and the show is @ Cowan convos until next time please keep listening and [Music] learning