0:00
I just sat down on this rock, on a substance of some sort.
Search this video
0:01
This was as I was starting the newsletter, and this phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over.
0:08
And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing, and that was for 3 hours.
0:15
It gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do have things to share.
0:18
>> What do you want to say to our mothers right now?
0:22
>> My mom doesn't >> to take that back?
0:23
You started your newsletter 2019, and it now has over a million subscribers. >> 1. 2 million. >> 1. 2.
0:31
>> Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience.
0:35
>> People always say if you want to write, read.
0:37
>> The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real.
0:40
At this point, most of my posts are guest posts, where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career.
0:45
>> What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter?
0:48
>> On the struggle bus of startup life, probably.
0:50
And then, probably after that failed, I would have joined at some company as a PM. >> Do you still like it?
0:54
>> I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, but the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones boulder is chasing me constantly.
1:02
It's like this treadmill you're on.
1:03
>> Tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business.
1:07
>> Well, here's something I've never shared.
1:11
Today, my guest is my brilliant, incredible wife, Michelle Rial, who turns the table and interviews me.
1:16
I've had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast, and what could be more fun than doing this with my wife?
1:24
I share things during this conversation that I've never shared anywhere else, including some of the hardest moments from this journey.
1:29
I get a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast.
1:34
Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday, and she is also about to publish her third book, a children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about. Definitely pre-order it.
1:49
This was so fun and so special. I hope you love it. Let's get into it. Here's a puzzle for you.
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4:11
Michelle Rial, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks for having me.
4:16
>> So, what are we doing here?
4:17
Uh people constantly ask me to get interviewed myself.
4:19
People are like, "Why don't you sit on the other side of the microphone and get interviewed?"
4:22
And I'm just like, "Nah, I like interviewing."
4:26
Uh but, you have a book coming out.
4:30
And we thought this would be a fun opportunity to uh have you interview me.
4:35
And so, this is going to be your show.
4:37
I'm just going to be here asking me whatever you want.
4:38
I have no idea what you're going to ask me.
4:39
And uh we'll see where it goes.
4:41
And I'm going to ask you some questions about your book, too.
4:42
So, I'll turn it over to you, Michelle.
4:46
What do you got What do you got for me? >> okay. Babe. Yeah. Um yeah.
4:54
So, your you started your newsletter 2019.
5:02
And it now has over a million subscribers. >> 1. 2 million. >> 1. 2, sorry. >> Mhm.
5:07
>> Uh and your podcast is uh you very frequently one of the top 10, is that right? >> Yep.
5:14
It's like right around Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Top 10 tech podcasts. >> Yeah. >> Yes. Hell yeah. >> I love it.
5:20
When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer.
5:24
>> I was a software engineer.
5:24
Let's see when you met me.
5:26
No, I think it was a I think it was still a software engineer, yeah.
5:30
>> I think you went from software engineer to product engineer to product manager. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's right.
5:36
>> wondering what do you What do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter?
5:41
>> If I like stayed in my job.
5:43
>> Yeah, if you hadn't and then that I mean, I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment that led you to your newsletter, but you can answer either one.
5:53
>> So, is the question after I left Airbnb, what would I be doing?
5:55
Or is it like if I didn't >> Just if you if you hadn't or if you had gotten a different job.
5:59
Do you think you would have gotten a different job? Stayed there?
6:03
>> So, when I left my job, I was at Airbnb for 7 years.
6:06
I was I had like plan A, start a company again.
6:09
Plan B, join a startup as like their first PM.
6:12
Plan C, join a big company as a PM.
6:15
Plan D, advise companies, become a consultant kind of person.
6:19
Nowhere in that plan was like do this crazy thing that I do now.
6:23
I had a lot of startup ideas.
6:23
As I was exploring the startup ideas, as you remember, I was just like tinkering and prototyping and building stuff.
6:28
And then on the side I was writing things that I learned and things I wanted to share.
6:33
And you were just like, "Why are you writing?
6:37
Why do you There's You can't make money on the internet writing.
6:41
You should be doing this thing that you're good at, startups and building and tech and stuff like that."
6:46
And I'm just like, "I don't know.
6:46
It seems like there's a pull here, so I'm just going to keep doing this."
6:50
>> I don't know if I said things that you're good at.
6:51
I just said I just said like as a person putting writing on the internet.
6:55
I don't make any money unless people buy my book, yeah. Plug. >> Ta-da. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
7:02
So, I guess to answer your question, I probably find another company to start and it probably would have failed.
7:08
Considering most startups fail.
7:08
So, I'd probably be in this like oh, no, this is this thing I think I should be doing.
7:13
I'd be in a on the on the struggle bus of startup life, probably.
7:15
And then probably after that failed, I would have joined a some company, I guess, as a PM.
7:21
>> So, then I guess going back to that question of what what do you think Do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that led you to go full in on the newsletter or even start the newsletter, start the medium post that led to the newsletter?
7:32
>> Yeah, it was definitely a collection of moments.
7:34
It's kind of this like little journey that I just followed pull that was starting to work.
7:37
And I'm just like, "Huh, maybe there's something here."
7:41
So, a few moments along that journey.
7:43
One was the first thing I wrote on the This is like the first thing I wrote on the internet. Did very well.
7:48
It was this post on what I learned at Airbnb. Like Medium featured it.
7:51
It went all over the place.
7:53
Brian Chesky shared with the whole company.
7:54
So proud of what I shared.
7:54
So, that was a nice moment of like, maybe I have something to share.
7:58
And then I wrote a few more things on Medium at this point.
8:01
And there was more of just like, hm, this is working. People seem to like it.
8:07
Then I had a conversation with this with a friend, Lee Jacobs, who's a VC now.
8:12
Cuz I was telling him, I don't know what I'm I don't know what I'm doing this. Why am I writing?
8:14
This is like not a future.
8:16
I should be focusing on the startup.
8:18
And he's just like, you seem to be enjoying it.
8:20
People seem to be liking it.
8:23
Which is very rare, that Venn diagram of things.
8:25
Just like, how often do you enjoy something and people value it?
8:29
And maybe there's a way to make money in in the future.
8:31
So, his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that and maybe it'll go somewhere. So, that was a moment.
8:38
Another maybe big moment was 9 months of doing the newsletter.
8:40
So, I decided, I'm going to move to Substack.
8:44
I'm going to write every week.
8:44
I tweeted, I'm going to experiment with the newsletter, a weekly newsletter. See how it goes.
8:50
Uh and so, I did that every week for 9 months.
8:52
And I just remember this moment 9 months in where I was like, huh, I've been doing this every week for 9 months.
9:00
Which means I could probably do this for 9 more months.
9:02
There's this uh Lindy effect.
9:04
I don't know if you know this, but there's this concept of a thing something being Lindy, which is uh as long as it's been going for, it will most likely last at least that long in the future.
9:15
So, I thought that, okay, I could do this for at least probably another year.
9:18
I have all these ideas and things I want to write about.
9:21
So, let me just keep doing this.
9:21
So, that's when I decided to add the paywall and start charging and to see if I could make money doing this thing.
9:26
Also, in parallel, as you know, uh I was doing this based on the assumption that my Airbnb stock was going to be worth something and I could take this time to explore.
9:36
And then COVID hit and Airbnb might have I was like, over.
9:40
RIP Airbnb all over Twitter.
9:40
And I was like, huh, maybe I need to get a job for real.
9:45
And so I'm like, I got to make money on this thing. Let me try.
9:48
So that's when I started the paywall.
9:50
And so And then And then it worked.
9:51
That's like the other moment I think. I launched the paywall. And it worked.
9:54
You know, I made meaningful dollars like a month in.
9:58
>> So speaking of Venn diagram, you said, I'm good at it and I and I people like it. >> like it.
10:04
>> Oh, and I like doing it. You like doing it.
10:06
>> That's a really good cuz I didn't mention that. Okay.
10:07
That's so That's so true.
10:10
>> Well, that's the Ikigai, right? Yeah.
10:12
>> Yeah, I think Ikigai is like five things, right?
10:13
It's like a whole bunch of stuff.
10:15
Yeah, but that's like a trigger point cuz it was just like, people like it and I'm good at it. >> Mhm.
10:20
>> But without the actually enjoy it.
10:21
>> I think you said, I and I like doing it. >> it. Okay, cool. >> Do you still like it? >> I do. In almost every way.
10:28
Like, I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting.
10:35
Just basically, um, my job is to write about things that are interesting and share people's interesting insights and experiences.
10:40
And interview people and extract wisdom.
10:42
It's just like, so interesting.
10:45
It's my own thing, which makes it extra interesting.
10:46
But I think a lot about uh this artist Finch wrote this blog post, How to Become an Artist.
10:55
And at the top of his post, he's just like, you prob- you should not become a professional artist most likely because Yeah.
11:02
Because once it's a thing you have to do, it changes it.
11:04
You have You know, you have to do it.
11:06
So now I'm on this like this is the downside.
11:09
But I just want to preface with saying, this is incredible and I can't imagine doing anything else that I enjoy more.
11:15
But uh having to write a post or put out a post every single week and a podcast episode every week, you know, it's like this treadmill that you're on.
11:23
So you have to kind of get used to that. That part is no fun.
11:26
But again, I can't think of anything better that I could be doing.
11:32
And And it kind of goes up and down.
11:33
Sometimes like I love it.
11:33
I'm so happy I get to write a thing every single week.
11:38
And then some weeks I'm like, "It'd be cool not to do it this week."
11:39
But that's part of this life, you know?
11:40
Cuz otherwise you can't do this.
11:42
You can't You can't survive in this way if you're not doing something consistently and making it awesome every week. So, it's a part of it.
11:48
So, the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones uh boulder is chasing me constantly.
11:55
Because you put out something like I have a post come out What's today?
11:56
We're recording on Wednesday.
11:58
I had a post come out yesterday.
12:00
And then I'm it's like, "What's next week?" All right. That's done.
12:04
All the work you put into it, over.
12:06
What's coming out next week?
12:06
And it's like every week.
12:09
So, the big question I I don't have an answer to is where this all goes long term.
12:13
Cuz someday whether it's at uh 7 years old or 100 years old or 60 years old, I don't know.
12:19
Like maybe I won't be able to do this every single week.
12:21
So, I think about where does this all go?
12:23
I don't think there's a answer to like Substack writer podcast life long term. Like what do you do?
12:30
>> According to the Lindy, right? >> There you go.
12:32
>> So, 2019 you have 7 more years.
12:34
7 years since the newsletter. >> So, I think yeah. Okay. 7 more years. >> run out of ideas. >> Okay. So, we got 7 years. I I could do that. >> Yeah. Okay.
12:42
So, speaking of the boulder, you don't seem like a stressed out person and I don't see you as a stressed out person only like potty training.
12:54
Sleep the you tell their baby sleep stuff. >> Yeah.
12:57
>> I don't see you as a stressed out person.
13:00
Uh do you think there's anything behind that?
13:01
Do you think that's just you?
13:03
And or are you just stressed and doesn't you don't show it?
13:07
>> I think there's an element of I'm more stressed than I come across as and even recognize in myself.
13:13
Like I get these headaches sometimes.
13:14
I'm like, "What is it going on there?
13:14
Is that stress or is that something else?"
13:17
So, I think there's a bit of I'm probably more stressed than it looks like and that I even feel.
13:22
But I think I'm probably less stressed than the average person.
13:24
I think part of it is genetics.
13:27
And then part of it is I I work on it.
13:29
Like I just have learned to adjust the way I think to reduce stress and to not take things seriously.
13:38
But I think I I think honestly it's probably like 70% genetics.
13:39
I'm just like, "Yeah, it'll be all right. It'll be all right."
13:42
As you know, something we argue about.
13:44
"Nah, it'll be all right."
13:46
It's some like raw chicken and it'll be fine. It's fine. >> Uh so, okay.
13:50
Do you have any tools or any kind of like any of done different types of meditation?
13:56
We've done breathing course together.
13:57
You know, what Do you have a favorite?
13:59
Do you >> Oh, to like calm down and de-stress and things like that?
14:03
>> you did a 10-day silent meditation right before you ended up writing the post. >> Mhm. That's true. >> That's true. That was a big wisdom.
14:11
Oh, here's something I've never shared. Okay.
14:14
You asked about going back to the moments that led me to this life.
14:18
So, I went on a uh bachelor party trip with some friends.
14:21
This isn't where you think it's going. >> I hope it's not.
14:27
>> So, it was a trip to Joshua Tree with a friend.
14:28
And uh there was psychedelics involved on this trip.
14:32
Uh and I just remember So, we went to Joshua Tree.
14:35
I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort.
14:40
Uh and and this was as I was starting the newsletter.
14:44
And I just remember sitting there for probably 3 hours in this one spot.
14:49
And I was just having this deep breathing happening and this like phrase of I have wisdom to share coming through me over and over and over.
15:00
And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of some sitting Buddha thing.
15:07
And it's just like I have wisdom to share.
15:08
And that was for 3 hours.
15:12
>> That made you write the post?
15:14
>> That made me feel like I can do this.
15:15
Like it gave me the confidence that like, "Okay, maybe I do have things to share."
15:19
Yeah, that was a really powerful moment just to give me give me confidence that there's something inside me that's like, oh yeah, maybe I can I could do this thing.
15:26
So that was a big moment.
15:28
>> What do you want to say What do you want to say to our mothers right now? >> Oh no. My mom doesn't know. >> take that back? >> No, no.
15:35
>> Do you want to crop it out?
15:36
>> This is um Okay, Mom, I didn't I did I did I did some stuff. >> It's okay.
15:43
>> We Okay, so >> to time to share.
15:45
>> And then yeah, you've done meditate you did 10-day meditation, you did a specific type of meditation that that seemed to me to to affect you in like physical ways. >> Yeah.
15:54
>> And then you told me once about a happiness course you took. >> Yeah.
15:58
That was actually pretty transformative.
15:59
I took this online course at University of Pennsylvania about uh the psychology of happiness.
16:07
And it was basically all the science of what makes you happier and how to be happier.
16:11
And that really had a big impact on me because it showed you you can increase your baseline level of happiness by doing a few things.
16:16
And one of the things is just like thinking more positively.
16:19
Like thinking more optimistically.
16:20
There's also like gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful.
16:23
But there's just something about you can Everyone's got this baseline.
16:28
That was actually a big learning from that course is Everyone's just kind of has baseline level of happiness.
16:31
And you could be like at 100, you could be at zero.
16:34
Probably more Most people are in between somewhere.
16:37
And like something amazing happens, you go all the way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline.
16:42
Something terrible happens, you go back to that baseline.
16:44
And the main thing you can do is work on improving that baseline so that you come back to a higher place.
16:50
So that's what a lot of the work is and what you learn in that class.
16:55
And one of the things is just be optimistic.
16:56
Just kind of have a positive outlook.
16:59
And don't let your mind kind of spiral into these like, it's going to be terrible.
17:03
So it was a lot of just like think more positively.
17:04
And I feel like my baseline of level of happiness has gone up.
17:10
And I think that it Yeah.
17:11
>> And you told me exercise, too. Like you used to run.
17:14
>> Yes, that was a really good insight.
17:14
So exercise the the science This was like, I don't know, 15 years ago.
17:17
I'm guessing there's new research.
17:18
But, the interesting thing there is exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative.
17:24
So, you're negative one without exercise, and exercise brings you to zero.
17:30
So, that you're not depressed, basically.
17:32
>> Speaking of stress >> Okay, then I have a question for you. >> Oh, okay. Let's do this. Let's do this.
17:37
Uh because I know on your podcast you have a lightning round. >> Okay.
17:42
>> Um we're going to do a thunder round.
17:45
>> So, is that extra fast? >> No, it's sound.
17:45
Your one thing that I think stresses you out the most at times is uh your misophonia.
17:54
Which is you want to explain what it is?
17:56
>> Yeah, it's like It's funny to talk about it, but it's this I It's like this disorder.
18:03
It's like a real thing in the brain where I get bothered by certain sounds.
18:07
And so, I get very bothered by people eating with their mouth >> Okay, thunder round is going to be top five worst sounds.
18:16
Or you can rank these sounds. >> Okay, okay.
18:17
You're going to give me the five.
18:18
>> Like like best best sound to worst sound. >> Okay. >> Right? So, like 10 is worst. >> Okay.
18:24
What are like What are the best sounds?
18:27
>> Okay, what's Okay, okay. Let's say chewing. Chewing one to 10.
18:30
>> Chewing like with the mouth open, just like >> Chewing with the worst Yeah. >> I hate it. 10 is the worst. Yeah, it's you know.
18:38
It's probably it's in the Yeah, it's 10. 9 or 10.
18:40
>> Or like like nails on a chalkboard, what's that?
18:42
>> That's like less bad for me. >> Right. What's the number?
18:44
>> Like if it's on sitting right next to me just like chomping away. >> Yeah.
18:48
>> And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop. I hate doing that. It's like so weird. They're like, "Shut up." >> you're sweet.
18:52
>> But, it's just like, "What?" >> Yeah.
18:55
>> I'm just sitting here eating. Leave me alone. >> Yeah.
18:56
That's how I feel whenever I do um by accident near you. >> Yeah. >> Uh okay.
19:01
So, nails on a chalkboard, what's >> That's like six. I don't know, five.
19:05
>> What about um >> I don't mind that.
19:06
>> What about like a baby crying or your What's a baby crying versus your baby crying? >> Mhm.
19:10
Baby crying like uh So, 10 is the worst. >> Yeah. >> So like how loud?
19:13
Like very loud baby crying?
19:16
>> like in a in a newborn phase, like like didn't know what to do, like >> Oh, yeah.
19:19
That was really Like when when Jude was born >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. That was pretty hard. It's thunder out. Okay. Uh like eight. >> Okay. Okay.
19:28
What about like um when Jude says "Papa"? >> Yeah. >> One.
19:34
>> One is the best, yeah, and >> Is there any other sound you >> Jude laughing. >> Okay.
19:40
>> Okay, you're going to say it.
19:40
What about like another bad sound? >> Mhm. I don't know.
19:45
>> Okay, you can you can ask me now if you want. >> Okay.
19:48
>> If you're getting stressed >> No, no, no.
19:51
I don't like there's not that many bad sounds.
19:52
It's just like very specific bad sounds that I'm just like >> Basketball?
19:56
>> You know, if there's just like if I'm trying to calm like be calm and there's like a bunch of commotion, like okay, uh like a gas, you know, blower. >> Oh, yeah.
20:06
>> I'm trying to work, you know.
20:07
>> That's I think a notorious one for people. What is that a 10?
20:10
>> It's like if it's super loud and right in my face, I would say let's say a seven. >> Okay.
20:14
>> That's a bad >> You can ask your question now if you want, or I have more for you.
20:18
>> I'm going to ask you a question.
20:18
So uh so you make these incredible genius funny charts.
20:23
There's one example on this book.
20:25
So you have this first book here called Am I Overthinking This, which a lot of people identify with. It has sold many copies.
20:32
Uh so you're you create all these charts that try to synthesize things in life, things people experience, things people feel.
20:38
A lot of these charts get shared on socials by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution.
20:50
They make pillows and mugs and there's like all these websites that sell all these charts you've made just like on swag that you get no credit for.
20:58
I know it's bothered you a lot over the years.
21:00
What makes your charts so shareable, so widely?
21:02
How do they go so viral so often?
21:06
>> By the way, I stopped looking at that cuz it doesn't help me.
21:08
Anyway, um >> That's good.
21:11
I think that's for the best.
21:12
>> Well, I think like I think as as your thing has gotten more successful, it's like not as important to me.
21:19
I do think it's interesting that they are often like detached from me, which is I don't know why.
21:22
But, um >> Yeah, people want to get credit. >> when they do.
21:26
Um and it I I think I can figure out some of them it's clear when I make it whether it's like I make it and then I let it sit and then some other some like moment happens or I'm like, "Oh no, this is what it needs."
21:38
and then I'm like, "Now it's Now I can feel that's really good."
21:40
and usually it's like it's something that makes me laugh or cackle even though I made it.
21:46
It's like like it's like, "Oh, I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me."
21:49
or makes me kind of like tear up, then I feel like, "Okay, I think people are going to like this." I am often wrong.
21:58
And sometimes too, like there are things there's something from that book that I didn't share at all, but someone took a photo of it.
22:03
That's how it went viral is like just a photo of a page of a book that people loved.
22:09
>> Like it wasn't even like a digital high-quality picture.
22:10
It's just like someone took a photo, yeah.
22:12
>> Yeah, which is interesting as well, but and also people's attention spans sometimes they're just what I what I like to make is things that are really simple and quick and show you something you haven't thought of before.
22:27
And I think that if it's really easy to digest people's attention spans are short these days and if it makes them feel something is another thing and it's also nice to make something that's that isn't a lot of like physical labor because some things you can make and it can take you forever to draw out because my brain does work in this like overthinking kind of way of like this, but then oh this, then this.
22:52
People like it when it's really simple. >> Yeah.
22:54
I love your point about like the way you know a chart is done is intrinsically you feeling like this is hilarious.
23:00
This is makes you laugh, makes you feel something and it's similar to the way I think about my newsletter posts and yeah, more more with the newsletter than the podcast is it just to me it feels like this is like really interesting and really good.
23:13
It's very like not waiting for other people to give you, you know, approval or feedback.
23:17
It's like I feel this is good.
23:22
And I think that's really interesting that that's similar to the way I approach my stuff.
23:25
I find that when you work on your charts, uh you're like you think so many levels deep.
23:32
They're like they're like so they're like too clever sometimes and I feel like cuz it's your point, people have a short attention span.
23:37
Sometimes they're like too clever and I have to like, okay, this is too many layers you have to understand and I have to like that's a little much.
23:44
You have to like simplify it a little bit. Yeah.
23:47
>> Yeah, you're my editor. Sometimes.
23:50
>> I try but you're like, no, you're like, I don't care.
23:51
I don't I don't care about your feedback.
23:53
You're >> No, you're you're usually probably right. >> Yeah.
23:56
Okay, let me ask you one more question and then we could switch it around again.
24:00
How do you come up with your ideas for your charts?
24:01
You have so many such variety.
24:03
You had an adult book, you had a children's and now you have a children's book.
24:07
Uh you're working on like charts for parents, you have all this other stuff going on.
24:12
Where do your ideas come from, Michelle?
24:14
>> The ideas come from just living life and noticing noticing a lot of things and then also kind of um observing a lot.
24:22
I I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating and it in meditation you learn to kind of observe your own thinking and if you're anxious about something like, oh, I'm that's funny that I was anxious about that.
24:34
Random thing that I I've never thought about it that way before and which is interesting because it is kind of like overthinking every moment, which it meditation shouldn't be teaching you to do, but that's what happens.
24:48
But I I've noticed if I focus too much on my work, I stop living life and then I stop having ideas.
24:56
And it's a little different with children's books, which is what I'm working on right now because it's not like relatable things.
25:04
A little bit, but it's um more children's concepts.
25:07
But the adult stuff has to be just through living life. >> Noticing, yeah. >> Yeah, noticing.
25:15
>> Makes me think about I think David Sedaris had this story where he just has to say yes to everything he's invited to just cuz he needs to have experiences cuz he just has to keep pumping out stories.
25:24
So he's just like, "Sure, let's go to Vegas right now. Let's do it."
25:29
So I feel like that's a lot of the work here is just a live real life.
25:32
You can't just kind of sit there and come up with ideas.
25:33
You have to try stuff and do crazy things.
25:37
>> Yeah, so the first So my first children's book, which is is out soon.
25:43
Um that one actually came out of kind of observing parenthood and early new parenthood moments. That's how I started.
25:48
I started at the beginning of the notebook writing kind of like trying to make charts for new parents, but we'd been reading so many kids books together that I just had this like da da da da da da da like rhythm in my head of children's books.
26:01
And so what it I just turned to the back of the notebook and started writing more like children's book rhymes involving cats.
26:10
>> of a notebook cuz you're working on a different book and you're just like >> I had this notebook.
26:13
I I had to I had to put my questions in for you. >> What?
26:17
>> Yeah, and so I started off in the front.
26:19
Um I'm not going to show you.
26:20
>> So you started in the front on a different idea.
26:22
>> I started off in the front charts for new parents.
26:25
And then I was like got, you know, a few in you know, like a good amount in.
26:29
And then I was just in the park writing and then I kind of was just like, "Yeah, but I I have always wanted to do these charts for kids or for babies."
26:39
And I just kept wanting to write that.
26:42
So I started in the back and then I filled it up that way.
26:45
>> I love that this is another example of just following pull and not just doing the thing that you're doing.
26:50
Just like, "Huh, this is pulling me in.
26:52
I'm going to try it and just see where it goes." Look at this. What a callback.
26:56
Okay, back to you, Michelle. >> Okay, back to you. >> Back to me. Back to you through me. Through you. >> Okay.
27:03
Okay, so um tell me about I I do want to ask you this question, inspired by our friend who like reverse nicknames you and says like Leonard.
27:12
Is your name full name Leonard?
27:15
Where does Lenny come from?
27:18
>> the way, reverse nickname meaning they give you nickname without you like asking them to.
27:22
>> there's people who give you a nickname without you asking. >> Yeah. Yeah.
27:25
>> He gives you the full name. >> Oh, I see. Makes it long. >> Yeah. Is that a thing? I'm just making it up. >> Okay, I like that.
27:32
Okay, so the question is my Well, my real name uh so when I moved to the US from the Ukraine, which we recently chatted about on a podcast with Boris, which turned out to be a big big news >> Oh, that's >> for people I got to say, yeah.
27:44
My parents named me Leonid.
27:48
Was my real official first name in the US.
27:52
But, they called me Lenny.
27:52
Everyone called me Lenny.
27:53
And so when we became citizens, you could change your name.
27:57
And so my parents just changed it to Lenny. So, that's my real name. >> It's just Lenny. No No Leonard. >> Leo. Yeah.
28:04
>> No, yeah, Leonard though. >> Just Lenny. >> Just Lenny. >> Yeah. >> I love it.
28:08
And Leonid as in it's it's a Russian name or there's also the like star constellation. >> Oh, the Leonids. I don't know.
28:14
I think they just asked their friends just like, "What is My Russian name is Lonya."
28:18
And so I think they just like, "What's the English version of that?"
28:22
And I'm guessing some of their friends are just like, "Leonid."
28:26
I don't know if they named it after anything specific.
28:29
>> Can I share any of your nicknames? I'm going to assume now.
28:32
>> What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it.
28:34
>> Uh I don't know what they are. Like Lonchik. >> Okay, sure. I could try that. Sure. >> Do you like it? Do people call you that?
28:42
>> Well, it's like my family calls me that. Yeah.
28:44
It's like a Russian Yeah, it's like a Russian little nickname, Druchik. >> Yeah.
28:48
And you Okay, but like strangers, can they call you that?
28:52
>> Uh no, don't call me that. >> Okay, okay.
28:53
And speaking of strangers, how do you feel when people approach you?
28:57
And And is it weird at all?
28:57
Like Like Like does it remind you how big your newsletter has gotten? Or like Do you like it?
29:05
Do you like certain ways of approaching it?
29:07
>> Yeah, so I guess what you're uh speaking to is when I walk around the Bay Area in particular, people often recognize me, which is extremely weird.
29:14
And started with the podcast once it Like interestingly, I had the newsletter for 4 years.
29:20
>> Yeah, you got to be like you got to be stealth.
29:22
>> Yeah, like my face was tiny in some Twitter profile.
29:24
But I once I started the podcast, people just Yeah, it just It was like very weird the first time it started happening and then And now it happens uh quite a lot. I like it a lot. It's very cool. I really appreciate it.
29:35
It makes me feel really nice.
29:37
I'm not bothered by it in any way.
29:37
Uh it always is very flattering.
29:40
People are always so nice and just have endless nice things to say.
29:44
I've never had a bad experience though when just trying to say hi to me. So please say hi.
29:50
>> What if Okay, that's great.
29:52
>> And I often ask people what's their favorite podcast episode or favorite newsletter cuz I'm just curious.
29:55
I I always ask just like, "You're founder? You're product person?" Like what's your story?
29:59
Yeah, it's really >> if you're in the middle of if you're like at a coffee shop and you have headphones on and somebody says like, "Hey."
30:04
Or if you're like playing with your kid, what do you think?
30:08
>> I think you're projecting >> Right.
30:09
>> about what you wouldn't want. >> Girl, yeah. >> People don't do that.
30:13
I think people have been generally very conscious.
30:14
You know, there could be a moment of just like we're getting somewhere and I can't talk for too long and I don't want to be rude.
30:21
>> Or you're like in a focus. It's >> Yeah. >> But But then Yeah.
30:24
>> It hasn't been a problem yet.
30:26
Uh almost like 99% of people have been very considerate. Yeah.
30:29
And I don't want people to feel like they can't just talk to me and say >> Yeah, that's cool.
30:33
>> Yeah, they're always so cool. >> I like that. >> Yeah.
30:35
>> Is there any like instance of delightful >> Like maybe the first time this happened uh we live in Marin and I was walking over through San Anselmo with you, as you remember, and there's this guy in a little red car driving by with his son.
30:51
He's driving by and we're on the sidewalk, and then he just yells, "Lenny, I love your podcast!"
31:01
And this wasn't even in San Francisco. It was in San Anselmo. And I was uh shocked.
31:05
And then he just kept He like held up traffic just to say hello. I'm like, "Oh my god."
31:10
>> Yeah, I wouldn't do that.
31:11
>> Yeah, probably wouldn't do that.
31:11
And then I met him later.
31:13
He runs the Hamburger Club in Marin. He's very cool.
31:17
Cuz I saw him again at another coffee shop.
31:18
So, that was quite delightful. >> I love that. Uh, okay.
31:23
You had just said something Okay, people coming up to Um, okay, you're going to have to cut this.
31:30
Because >> See, and then we're not going to cut it cuz this is what I go through, too, as a podcast interviewer.
31:36
>> I thought of something. I lost it.
31:38
>> This is what I'm constantly dealing with.
31:39
That is a challenge of the interviewer.
31:41
And I think it's fun for people to see cuz you're like, "Okay, I have to think about what's I'm going to say next."
31:46
And then you're like, there's a stop, and then you're like, "Oh, What was it going to be?"
31:49
So, that's why I on when I do the podcast, I'm secretly writing notes to myself constantly. >> I I Okay. >> Chicken notes?
31:56
>> Yeah, well, okay, I closed my Okay, I should have written it down.
31:59
Let's talk about like thinking back to what what kind of um hints that you would start this newsletter or like things that you worked on when you were younger that are >> They helped me out.
32:12
>> Like like a little like or like mildly adjacent or like, you know, cuz you had some what you had like some websites, you had atheist spot, you had like you had some >> tutorials >> tutorials. That's one.
32:25
>> So, the question is like, what are the things I did earlier that helped me with the work I do now?
32:29
>> Or yeah, just cuz just looking back like anything that that is kind of like makes it obvious that you would have have this newsletter or like a little more >> I don't think there's anything that would have pointed me or anybody to this being the thing that I do now.
32:41
It's completely unexpected personally and I don't think anyone saw coming.
32:46
Uh I had never written anything online before I started writing.
32:48
I was always not like, "Hey, look at me.
32:50
I've got all the answers and I have all this wisdom to share."
32:54
It was always like, "I'm an introvert.
32:56
I'd like to kind of stay behind the scenes."
32:58
So, it was a it's a very unexpected path for me and part of the reason I think I was able to do it is uh the newsletter started during COVID so I could just sit there and type and put stuff out online.
33:08
I didn't have to go anywhere and like tell everyone.
33:10
I could stay like in my little hole.
33:12
But, just to uh follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier cuz uh I don't think I've ever talked about these things.
33:19
I had all these different side projects before uh like through college, I guess. Yeah, through college.
33:25
I was like a very uh uh big atheist and I'm still an atheist, Jewish atheist, which is many Jews.
33:31
But, I was like very into it before and now I'm like, "Okay, I don't care. Whatever.
33:37
Believe it or don't believe."
33:38
Uh so, I used to run a website called the atheists pot.
33:39
com, which was Reddit for atheist news.
33:45
Which is not a you know, Reddit is that. It's fine.
33:47
I don't you don't need it.
33:49
But, I went to like there's like conventions we went to. Atheist conventions. Uh so, I did that.
33:54
And the funny thing is that was the during AdWords when Google AdWords was a way to monetize your site.
34:01
And so, all the ads on the site because most of the articles were about religion were all these religious dating sites.
34:07
So, it was like Christian Mingle and then like all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience.
34:14
So, I always thought that was funny.
34:14
And then uh I worked with a friend on this other project called U torials, which was so ahead of its time.
34:19
The idea was U torials, tutorials for you by you. >> Nice.
34:25
>> And so, it was people contributing things they've learned and writing a how-to.
34:28
Like how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower.
34:30
And there was all these >> That's like TikTok. Right? >> It's like TikTok.
34:34
It was before Wikipedia, I think. >> No, no, I know, yeah.
34:37
>> Yeah, it's like YouTube. It's like, yeah.
34:39
>> That's like what I watch TikTok for is like watching people make >> Yeah, and parenting advice, and things to be afraid of. >> Yeah.
34:45
>> Yeah, and dance videos, yeah.
34:45
So, it was >> That's what your thing was, or that's what TikTok is?
34:49
>> That's what TikTok is, right? Yeah.
34:51
So, yeah, I was really proud of that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
34:54
>> It sounds good It sounds like it was ahead of its Local Mind was ahead of its time.
34:57
>> And Local Mind, so that was my startup. We sold to Airbnb.
35:00
>> Airbnb, that's all I got there.
35:01
>> Uh Local Mind, amazing idea and not something anyone needs, really. >> Mhm.
35:07
>> Uh >> I still need it.
35:08
>> Like, you need it once in a while.
35:10
So, just to briefly explain what that is, uh it was an app that sat on top of Foursquare and Gowalla when that was very cool, and allowed you to ask questions of people checked in anywhere in the world.
35:18
So, if you're like, "Is there a long line at The Mill, which is near here? Should I go? Is there a long line?
35:23
What's like the special?" >> that, basically.
35:25
The >> Yeah, we use So, that Google does it with their like, "Is it busy?" Yeah.
35:30
Like, you know, all these other ways that you could solve this problem. It was very cool. Uh It was amazing. Nobody needs it, really.
35:36
>> But there's still things you want to ask people.
35:38
>> it like once in a while.
35:38
You need it like once a quarter, and it's, "Holy that's so good."
35:41
But, you know, you can't make a business out of that, so I'm glad that we we exited.
35:48
Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers.
35:52
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36:02
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36:21
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36:31
>> Okay, so you're mentioning the the atheist spot with bunch of religious dating sites. >> Yeah.
36:36
>> Reminding me that you were my first online date ever >> Hell yeah.
36:41
>> on a >> Snatch straight off.
36:42
>> platform called HowAboutWe.
36:44
And I remember that I mean you would had other dates.
36:48
Um >> Where is this going? >> Anyway, no.
36:50
But I remember you were like um had See, I think you had a thing for designers. >> Yeah.
36:57
>> And I wonder if you regret that preference.
37:00
Like designer artist sort of like >> No, not at all. >> stereotype. >> No, no.
37:05
>> Like I'm not like like you're pretty neat.
37:08
>> Yeah, yeah, it's true.
37:08
You're kind of chaotic, yeah.
37:09
Which is we can talk about your process, but it's like it's a messy process. It's true.
37:15
You know, we have a good yin yang. >> Yeah.
37:17
>> Yeah, I'm just like >> unstressed, unbothered. I'm bothered. >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm stressed. >> everywhere. >> Yeah. >> We got cleaners. They help things out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's true. You know, It's worth it. >> Okay.
37:30
So, you're okay with designers still. Good.
37:34
Uh and then >> As a as a wife? >> Yeah, right, right. >> Highly recommend. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. >> Great.
37:39
So, yeah, I was going to ask like do you have any tips for cuz it's like it's you know, there's there's something you said recently which was like you don't have any co-workers.
37:45
I was like I'm your co-worker. We work at home.
37:47
Um but yeah, do you feel do you ever feel like lonely not cuz you were always really social.
37:54
And then this goes into two like even before you were niche famous or whatever we want to call it. >> how I describe it.
38:01
>> always coming up to you on the street like hey, you know. >> Yeah, from Airbnb.
38:05
>> cuz you're organizing things and um do you feel like you miss off office culture? >> Hm.
38:11
I have People asked me that over the years and I've always like no, it's amazing. I don't need that.
38:15
Like I could just do my own thing and I don't need people around.
38:18
But I've kind of started to feel that a little bit.
38:20
I've just like huh, there's no one."
38:21
Like I just sit at home all day and just like but >> Our dog likes to be right next to you. >> Yeah. Yeah, he's sweet. >> Yeah.
38:30
>> Uh so, I do feel like I do miss it now.
38:33
It's not like a huge problem, but it's just like, you know, it'd be cool to just jam with someone on stuff.
38:36
And I have a team and I have you and Twitter.
38:40
Like >> Well, you like to go to coffee shops.
38:43
>> I like to go to coffee.
38:43
Yeah, >> What do you get?
38:45
>> But it's like bowling alone and kind of I don't know.
38:47
It's like Is that a good metaphor like this?
38:49
>> And you have your headphones you put your headphones on, too. And you're focused. >> Yeah. So, it would be fun.
38:51
Like I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff, but it's not like Like I think there's a I do miss having someone next to me that I'm just working with on the same thing.
39:02
But I also am trying very hard to never have full-time employees.
39:05
I'm trying to keep things really simple because it's so easy to build this thing into like this whole thing that's complicated that I'm like, "What have I done?"
39:13
One of the challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate by doing things that people want you to do or by following that feel big and then you're like, "I hate this."
39:25
So, I'm trying to be really careful about what I commit to and do.
39:30
Coming back to your question, I do miss it some, yeah.
39:32
It's like a new thing I've realized that I miss is being around other people like working on the same thing. >> Yeah.
39:38
So, speaking of other people like coming up to you and being around other people, it I think it's become harder for you now that Now that people you don't know come up to you because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, yeah.
39:51
People who do know you come up to you and you're like and you're like waiting to know if if they just listened to your podcast or if you >> Like I know if I know that Like Yeah.
40:01
Yeah, this is a big problem for me.
40:01
It's like a It's like another brain disorder, I guess, where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it.
40:07
So, I just like, "I know you. Who are you?"
40:13
It's like people texting you from a new number. I'm like, "Who is this?"
40:15
>> Yeah, sometimes I feel like that Devil Wears Prada um assistant where I'm like, "That's Emily.
40:20
You worked with her at Airbnb."
40:23
Or that's not >> you don't do that. You need to do that. >> I I do it sometimes.
40:26
>> You do that sometimes? Okay. Yeah, so bad at that.
40:28
Okay, so if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please, I'm sorry. I'm really bad at it.
40:33
And yeah, it's like gotten worse cuz now I know more people through the podcast and newsletter and like >> Right.
40:38
And you just know a lot of people.
40:40
>> Yeah, it's like a lot of faces. >> You're very kind. So people like you. >> I try. >> Yeah. >> Try. >> Okay.
40:47
So going back to the like unbothered vibe that you have, tell me about a time you've been really stressed in your business and then a time you've been really stressed in your personal life.
40:59
>> Okay, so on the business side, uh so I have this product pass.
41:02
So as a subscriber to my newsletter, you get 23 incredible products.
41:05
And I used to read them all.
41:08
Linear, Mobbin, Lovable, Replit, Gamma.
41:13
I stopped doing this cuz there's too many now.
41:14
I had the end of my podcast, I just read through them all.
41:17
And now I can't do it anymore. There's too many.
41:18
I had a launch about a year ago.
41:20
It's about a year actually where I launched you get a free year of Cursor and Lovable and Bolt and Replit and V0. I think that's five.
41:30
And so uh that was way too good an offer. People came for it. Bad people.
41:38
So I just had so many fraudsters, mostly in China, it turned out.
41:41
Just like all these fraud rings in China trying to find ways to steal all my all these free goodies.
41:49
So they set up all these crazy attacks and I had to work with Stripe and Substack to just like shut them down.
41:58
And they just found all these little exploits in our API that we built and like this So it's like such a nightmare cuz we're just like waking up to like every night I was like hard to sleep and I have I have this engineer uh Este who's so incredible and he like didn't sleep for a week.
42:15
Stopping filling all these holes because all there's a lot of a lot of smart clever bad guys out there.
42:19
So that was extremely stressful.
42:20
Like it could trickle down into the whole thing falling apart if everyone's like, "Oh my god, can't trust Lenny anymore."
42:27
So as you remember it's very stressful. I didn't sleep too well.
42:29
And it was like very scary.
42:32
And there's all these They just kept popping up and there's all these like rings and it went viral in China, too.
42:36
That's like in the student network.
42:38
They just Ooh, You got a year free of Cursor and Lovable and Replet and Bolt and V0.
42:44
Uh, so it was very stressful.
42:47
To answer your question on the personal side.
42:49
Okay, so when our baby was born, the birth was very complicated.
42:55
Uh, you had to get a C-section because the induction wasn't getting it there cuz yeah, it was complicated. >> Complicated.
43:04
We don't get >> And normally I feel like I would tell the story, but >> You weren't awake.
43:08
>> But this is also like a When Harry Met Sally, but it's like how the the pregnant person almost died. You know?
43:15
But okay, but it's from your perspective because I didn't get to experience it. >> Right. >> So.
43:21
>> Yeah, so what happened is we had to You had to do a cesarean.
43:25
They gave you an And so the idea is they bring you into the operating room. They do the anesthetic.
43:33
The epidural or whatever it's called and then they let the husband and the partner in.
43:35
And so I was waiting in the hall waiting for them to do the anesthetic. >> Your scrubs.
43:41
>> They gave me a whole bunny suit. Yeah, super sterile.
43:44
Just standing there in this bunny suit thing.
43:45
And the idea is they do the anesthetic and I can come in.
43:49
And then watch the birth and all that stuff and 5 10 minutes in I just hear beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep beep.
43:56
And the doctor runs out, scrubs her hands, runs back in.
43:59
And then all of the two other people run from another room down the hall into the room. And I was like, uh-oh.
44:09
Uh, and then it was like >> You were >> I was scared. I was very scared.
44:14
Because I had no idea what was going on. It didn't sound good.
44:17
>> Nobody told you anything.
44:18
>> Nobody's telling me anything.
44:18
I'm supposed to be in there.
44:20
No one's coming out like, here's what's happening.
44:21
And it was like 10 minutes of just nothing. >> Yeah.
44:25
And you were supposed to be in there after like a minute?
44:28
>> Yeah, it's going to be quick. Yeah.
44:30
Yeah, it's supposed to be like, I'm going in.
44:31
We're going to do this it's right now.
44:32
And like you're awake during it, you know, in real life.
44:33
So, just remember pacing down the hall using going back to the lessons I've learned just like, it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay.
44:44
That's what I remember saying to myself.
44:47
Just kind of trust that they know what they're doing, you know. We're in a hospital.
44:49
There's a lot of doctors around.
44:52
And and then eventually they came back and they just said that the epidural went the wrong direction.
44:57
And so instead of going down, it went up your body and so it was stopped It was stopping your heart and lungs and they had to intubate you and do an emergency intubation and get the baby out and then took like an hour for you to come back.
45:08
They were They were going to put you in ICU to help you come back. So.
45:12
And that was very scary cuz you weren't there.
45:14
I didn't know what was going on.
45:17
>> And you got to hold You got to hold the baby for like an hour. >> Yeah.
45:20
>> Without So, that's why he's like a he's like only papa.
45:25
He's a He's another person that that prefers you.
45:30
>> Who's the other person? >> Our dog. >> You know. >> Cuz you're For now. For now.
45:35
>> you know, you're sweet sweet guy.
45:35
But yeah, it's uh >> Yeah, that was really scary. >> Stressful.
45:39
I kept telling myself it was going to be okay. >> Yeah.
45:41
That was That was the thing that helped.
45:43
But it was like very scary cuz it's just like life could be completely different now.
45:47
Like something like you know, like you could have like the guy that anesthesiologist said it was a one in 50,000 chance.
45:55
And it's like the worst scenario that is very rare and very dangerous.
46:01
And so it was extremely scary.
46:02
And and luckily he did a great job and everyone's like, "He killed it."
46:05
He did like he he knew exactly what to do.
46:07
He handled it really well. But >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
46:11
>> Yeah, and I don't have any memory of that.
46:14
>> It numbed my >> came back.
46:15
>> numbed my lungs and I was like, "I can't breathe."
46:17
And then it And then it numbed my spinal What is it?
46:21
Brain stem and then I passed out. >> How about that? >> How about that?
46:25
I didn't have to get to have any >> Yeah.
46:27
How does it looking back?
46:27
Are you Are you >> We don't have to talk about it. >> Okay. >> Look at No, yeah.
46:31
It's uh that that's the that's what you said, but it's interesting to like not have an experience around it.
46:35
And the experience was like the live experience is more >> Yeah, it's probably the scariest moment of my life.
46:43
>> Yeah, and I didn't I wasn't I didn't know anything about it because they put me under general anesthesia and then I was all loopy.
46:48
And then I didn't even know really what And then later I read the report like a month later I read it.
46:53
I actually had someone else read it who was in the field and she's like Cuz your cousin Lois and she like moved her thick glasses like, "Wow."
47:03
>> Yeah, she's like a nurse back then, yeah.
47:05
>> Anyway, stressful moment. Uh yeah. So, you used your tools.
47:10
>> Yeah, I used my tools.
47:10
Otherwise, you know, that's a good point cuz it could have been like spiral like, "Oh my god."
47:15
>> had a doula, but she had left.
47:17
>> The doula was going to be there, yeah.
47:19
But for cesarean, she's like, "I can't be here." Yeah.
47:21
Okay, I want to ask you a question, but unless you have something you want to follow up with. >> Okay.
47:26
So, you come up with these incredible charts.
47:27
They're just like You know, it's like the kind of charts you see on the internet that are like, "Oh my god, that's so genius."
47:31
And watching you come up with it is so wild cuz it just it just like it pops out of nowhere.
47:38
And then there's like a little bit of iteration and then like, "That's it."
47:40
What's the process for you coming up with a chart?
47:42
And what's like the environment that you need to create your best work?
47:47
I feel like coffee is a big part of it.
47:50
>> Coffee is like It's like not too much There There's one I have that it's like I mean, it has to be the perfect amount of coffee.
47:54
So, I actually usually get a single shot.
47:57
>> know about a the bomber peak, by the way? Quick tangent. >> Okay. >> Okay.
48:00
So, there's a concept called the bomber peak. >> Yeah.
48:03
>> From XKCD, which is just the right amount of alcohol where you're the most insightful and creative, and then it falls down, which is like, I don't know.
48:10
I forget why this is Steve Ballmer related, but >> Yeah. >> Okay.
48:13
So, the bomber peak of coffee >> that about coffee, but it's not it's made out of a little coffee straw, and it's like >> We're going to show this on YouTube if you're watching this, so you could see the chart.
48:20
>> It's like, I'm a genius, and then I'm having a panic attack.
48:22
And so, that's me is is like is like, yeah, I'll get to this point where I feel like I mean, coffee is a drug, right?
48:30
So, if I have too much, it is like a drug, and I'm I feel like a genius, and I'm like having all these ideas, but then I think it's it's too like, I don't know if this was a real image, but there was an image of spider webs, and it's like, this is a spider web that ingested some >> Right.
48:45
>> this >> LSD and stuff in coffee.
48:46
>> And then this is this that had spider that had coffee, and it's like, instead of a regular web, it's like a web that goes like this.
48:54
Like, it's like just erratic and tangential, and I have some some really good some really good like seeds of ideas in those moments, then I have to go like scream into a pillow or something.
49:04
>> Was that when you have too much coffee, or is that >> I drink too much coffee.
49:06
But but if there's a point like right before that.
49:09
>> So, single shot latte. >> is what I get. Single shot latte.
49:13
At least an hour, sometimes it's good to have a like a somewhere I have to be to a time limit, and then I'm kind of like a I feel like a machine.
49:24
Uh and it's like trying really hard to get somewhere, and and then the other thing is just like a lot of it is writing something down as I'm out in the world.
49:32
Like, writing and then putting it trying to put it on paper in a way that visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing, so and yeah, when I was a kid, my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of like you know, fractals and visualization and patterns, and so I sort of think that way.
49:50
Um like mathematically kind of, and um Yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea uh that in the simplest way possible.
49:59
>> Let me just say this is very cool that we're doing this. This is like really fun. So sweet. >> Oh.
50:05
>> Yeah, this was like really nice. >> Yeah. This our Odessa moment. Yeah.
50:11
>> You're born in Odessa, too? >> No.
50:13
No, but one of my questions was like um I don't know.
50:17
This would be like if I were in the audience, it would be more like a comment >> Right. >> versus a question.
50:21
>> We're going to pretend it's going to be a question.
50:23
>> Yeah, we're both uh our families are both from countries that like mine from Venezuela, yours from Ukraine, where people are always like, "Oh."
50:31
Does that like like we didn't just arrive >> Right.
50:34
>> from Venezuela or >> from Ukraine, so it's like not >> Yeah. >> the same. >> Yeah.
50:39
>> So we have to like almost make them feel be okay. Like it's okay.
50:40
I mean, so my family still lives in Venezuela, but >> Okay, so I asked you a question, okay. Um >> Oh. >> It's back to you. >> Okay, great. >> Yeah.
50:48
Well, yeah, no, okay, let me reflect back what you said.
50:49
Cuz this is really interesting.
50:51
So a single shot like so it's like some kind of like uh neuro stimulation, I don't know.
50:56
Single shot, just enough.
50:59
Uh I like this deadline piece.
50:59
That was really interesting.
51:01
>> And it's like not too much time, not not like not 30 minutes.
51:04
Although that it that can be why I'm late often is I'm like, "I just I've almost got it. I just, you know."
51:11
I I I'm a time optimist, as you know, that I'm like, "I I can think I have it."
51:15
And then but but a good good time is like 2 hours.
51:18
And then I I have to be somewhere in 2 hours. >> Interesting.
51:24
Okay, so those are two elements, and then was there another to for optimal creativity?
51:30
>> Oh, and a good night of sleep. Yeah.
51:33
>> Yeah, something you're working on.
51:34
>> the bad night of sleep plus plus too much caffeine then you don't have any you know, you have no ideas, you just have the like frantic piece of the caffe- the like the mental energy. >> Anything else?
51:44
This is a this is really interesting.
51:46
I think just the idea of what is what creates creativity. >> Mhm. Just like experiences.
51:51
Experiences and thinking and and almost like thinking too much about them.
51:54
>> Thinking too I like that. Maybe overthinking. >> Yeah, right.
51:58
>> Back to you, Michelle Rial.
51:59
>> Over to back to me to you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Okay.
52:01
So, we did the thunder round.
52:03
We did the the the worst things to hear. Okay.
52:05
And the best sounds, which your son's >> Yeah. >> laugh. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And great.
52:12
Do you Okay, we probably know your favorite like product management books.
52:17
Do you have a favorite children's book other than mine?
52:21
To read to >> Charts for babies.
52:23
>> to and also like and also maybe you could you could do more than one because that you know they like maybe there's one when he was a baby >> Like I feel like a chart is and you never take my ideas cuz I feel like you don't want to >> I don't want to >> it to be your ideas? >> Yeah.
52:39
>> But I feel like there's a books you love that are children's books and books your kid loves. Right?
52:42
And that's like I hate reading this one, but he loves it.
52:46
So, we're going to do it. >> Yeah.
52:47
>> So, it's like he decides what his favorite are.
52:49
I love Jon Klassen books.
52:51
They're so like beautiful and just like sweet.
52:56
So, those have been really great.
52:58
>> They're like actually not sweet. You're right.
52:59
There's like death in all of them. >> Yeah.
53:02
>> Yeah, they all end in death.
53:03
>> Yeah, like "Dude, the bunny thing is like he ate the bunny?"
53:07
>> Was it the bear the bear book? >> Yeah.
53:09
>> Like "He stole my hat." >> Yeah.
53:11
>> Yeah, like we start the book and he's like "He ate the bunny?" "Where's the bunny?" Like in his belly.
53:17
>> But does Yeah, is there any like overlap?
53:19
Do you think there's a favorite that that that one is that's his favorite that you now love because that you didn't love initially? >> Yeah, like Dr. Seuss.
53:29
I think we similarly really feel it's like way too long this one cuz it's like 50 pages, 60 pages. Like, come on.
53:36
>> Yeah, it's a lot of words and there's just like all these made up animals and and like he's like, "What's a zong?" >> Yeah.
53:42
>> Like, "There, that's a zong."
53:43
>> like >> like trying to teach them real things in the world and then he's like, "What is the tail of a zong?" It's like, "What?" >> The Vipper from Vip? Yeah. >> No. >> Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't like that.
53:53
Uh >> But we like But we like reading them.
53:54
>> We've kind of used Yeah, there's like a rhythm.
53:56
>> But like anything in Spanish I read to him obviously.
53:59
And yeah, I mean anything you want to say about like I don't know.
54:04
Is there any sort of like product ca- anything you've learned in product management or like growth that has translated to parenting?
54:13
>> You know, like product management is all about influence, and that's basically parenting. >> he likes you better. >> Why? Cuz I can influence?
54:22
But he also have to make him do stuff, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah.
54:25
>> They're like you do have authority, you know?
54:28
Uh all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority, so it's easier.
54:33
>> the I think they're like toddlers that hold the authority. >> It's true. Just like nope.
54:37
Here's the You sit there. >> Yeah.
54:39
I feel like I see your product management in that like you make him Like I should be the one making him a chart, but you make you make him like the like "Here's how if bedtime gets too long, you're like here's how bedtime's going to go.
54:49
We're going to read you three books, you get a star."
54:50
It was And then also I'm answering for you. Sorry.
54:56
>> Uh other things where it's like things where it it's where I'm kind of like, "Yeah, it just happens the way it happens."
55:01
You're like, "No, I read a book on it.
55:02
I read three books on it.
55:04
And this is how we're going to do it.
55:05
And and that's And it's going to work."
55:07
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. >> Right.
55:10
Yeah, I'm not like an intuition guy.
55:10
I'm just like what have the smartest people figured out about this?
55:14
This isn't the first time somebody has tried to shorten bedtime. >> Right.
55:19
Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night. >> Right. >> Yeah.
55:22
>> Yeah, there's like Yeah, there's like smart people that have tried this stuff before. Yeah.
55:28
And they can tell me what they've done. >> Small eye roll.
55:31
And okay, so I guess this is I think my last question for you, and I don't know if you want to answer it, but like I, as your wife, uh of however many years, like 10, still I don't think I know what product management is.
55:44
Do you Can you tell me in five words? >> Mhm. It's hilarious.
55:49
Okay, I will My words are impact, collaboration, judgment, alignment, and This is a really good question, and it's almost like the the order is like how you think about product management.
56:07
Like, you know, it's like the order you put them in. And what else?
56:10
I'm just saying some stuff, cuz it's really interesting. Coordination. >> I think that's five. >> Organizing. Planning. >> Okay. >> Outcomes.
56:22
>> I have just tuned out. >> There's so many.
56:23
You're just like, shut up. So boring.
56:26
And I'm just like, what should have I said?
56:27
That's what I'm going to think about now.
56:28
But it's, yeah, it's like a crazy weird job, all these different things. Yeah.
56:33
I'm just like, snap out of it. I keep thinking >> Mhm.
56:35
Yeah, I keep >> I'll give you my definition of product management.
56:38
>> Yeah, well, you can't say mini CEO. >> No, no mini CEO. That's That's not cool.
56:42
Although I actually do think a PM is a mini CEO.
56:44
Like, I think people keep saying you're not, but I think you are.
56:47
>> Yeah, you can't say like not a proj- project manager.
56:51
>> Not a project manager. That's right.
56:51
I think the way I describe it is uh your job as a product manager is to deliver business impact by prioritizing and solving the most impactful business problems. Something like that. That's many words. >> Yeah.
57:08
>> You're like, this is why I never know what it is. It's so boring.
57:09
What are you even talking about? >> Cool.
57:14
>> Like, this comes back to the mini CEO thing just to close that thread.
57:15
I feel like the PM on the team is basically should be thinking the way the CEO thinks.
57:20
You know, like their job is to think, what would the CEO do on this specific product or feature?
57:27
Because the CEO's job is make this successful, make this business grow.
57:29
And so your job as a PM is to kind of channel that.
57:33
What will allow this team and product to help the business be more successful?
57:38
>> Do you feel like you're doing that as as the I guess you are >> I'm everything, you know, like in my current world, right?
57:44
>> You're editor-in-chief, too.
57:46
>> Editor-in-chief, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
57:47
But I have a copy editor, I have an editor, so I have I have help. >> Oh, right. Yeah. >> Yeah.
57:51
People ask me what about product management helped me do the job I do now.
57:54
I don't think there's anything, to be honest, except just like things I was already into, which is just being organized, having a very high bar for quality, communicating like I think communication maybe is just like how to succinctly communicate points so that people grasp them.
58:11
>> That's like >> Whoa, look at this. So, we're the same.
58:17
Introducing >> The gist just communicating something simply. >> Wow.
58:23
Well, let me ask you one more question. So, maybe it's a close.
58:25
You wrote two adult books.
58:28
You now did a children's book.
58:32
Why the pivot to children's books?
58:32
Why did you decide to do a children's book?
58:36
>> I wanted to do a children's book based on the first adult book because I thought that charts are so they're like a ton of early learning concepts put together.
58:48
So, if you look at children's books, they're you know, the themes are often opposites, colors, shapes, feelings, um and then I just I was thinking like you can really you can really teach a lot from a chart and it's so simple.
59:07
So, it's a lot it's a lot of opposites. It's big and small.
59:10
It's it's uh you've got going up and going down, you've got overlapping colors, becoming another color.
59:15
You've got you can make a lot of feelings with with charts.
59:19
That's the second book in the series that that I'm >> It's coming out next year?
59:24
>> Yeah, but we but yeah, I'm I I finished it, but it's you know, it's still takes about a year to to come out after that.
59:29
But yeah, it's it it was this like uh I wanted to work on it in abstract.
59:33
Like I had I had the thought of wanting to work on it, but it didn't come until I started trying to work on another adult book that I really just had all these rhymes in my like I had it was more like a cadence.
59:44
I had just like this like da da da da da, you know, in my head and and yeah, I just tried it and it came really quickly, the first draft.
59:52
And yeah, and it it also Yeah, I I always wanted to make one because as as a little girl, my dad wanted me to He was a geophysicist.
1:00:00
He wanted me to be strong at math.
1:00:00
He was like, you know, cuz at the time it was kind of like girls um weren't encouraged necessarily to be good at math.
1:00:07
So he he from just like a young age, he was always showing me I do the same with our son, too.
1:00:11
Like always showing him patterns and like, "Oh, if you flip it, it's like that."
1:00:15
And it's just really fun for me.
1:00:19
And it's it's cool, too, uh writing the first one with like our son growing up, learning from experience, I guess, saying like having the experiences of him as a baby and like how I'm learning how to teach him things.
1:00:30
Then he gets a little older and then that helped me work on the the feelings.
1:00:33
And I've also learned how to speak to kids as well.
1:00:38
When I didn't have any, I was like, "I don't know what to say to you."
1:00:43
And now it feels more natural.
1:00:43
And so I I I had a a children's book that I tried to write before I had kids.
1:00:47
And for me, that one wasn't as good.
1:00:52
And so I feel like I gained a little bit of just like how to talk to child.
1:00:59
>> That's a really good like segue or not segue, I don't know, connection to something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from like actual experience.
1:01:06
Like cuz you had a children's book, like you just said, that you wrote before you had Jude and then it wasn't good.
1:01:10
And now, having the experience, you can actually make something great.
1:01:15
>> Yeah, and then also like another thing I thought about was just reading so many children's books.
1:01:18
And people always say if you want to write, read. And yeah, we read a lot.
1:01:23
We read still a lot of lot of books.
1:01:27
And it's it just got me in that zone, too. >> Yeah.
1:01:31
It just makes me think about something I think has been key to my newsletter success is uh it is based on like real life doing the thing.
1:01:39
Like So, at this point most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career.
1:01:44
Like the one thing they want to share. Which I love.
1:01:47
And it all comes from something I focus a lot on is from people on the ground doing the thing, not just floating the clouds pontificating.
1:01:56
And that's the source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real.
1:02:01
You know, not just pontificating.
1:02:03
It's just I think that's a really good maybe one takeaway is just the best stuff comes from doing the thing and then sharing your advice versus just thinking you know what you're doing.
1:02:11
>> And communicating it simply. >> Simply. And just like refining.
1:02:14
You don't even get into just all the work that goes into refining.
1:02:17
>> And then yeah, we you always talk about like we Yeah, another thing I do is like I often It's it's stressful because I make things and I am not sure if they're good enough yet and I put them to the side and then I come back and and I might have an idea knowing that it's already in my head.
1:02:31
I might have an idea like, "Oh, yeah, that's what's going to make that better."
1:02:33
Or I go to work on it again and some other thing adds to it.
1:02:37
But then as you've set it aside, then you see something else.
1:02:39
You see something in the world like, "Oh, shoot, somebody beat me to that thing I didn't ever do anything with."
1:02:43
Like >> Yeah, I could see that myself. Yeah.
1:02:48
To like have something sitting like with with maybe with your podcast and >> Yeah.
1:02:52
Well, let me ask you this and I'll answer for my own myself.
1:02:53
How many iterations do you do on a chart on average?
1:02:57
Like how many times do you like edit it and refine it? >> Uh it depends. >> Yeah.
1:03:02
What's like What's like the median? >> At least five. >> Okay.
1:03:06
Like for me I think it's like 60.
1:03:09
>> I was going to say 100.
1:03:11
>> Okay, that's probably the real answer.
1:03:12
Cuz that's how many times I've rewritten >> even physically do that. It's like I I need Yeah.
1:03:16
>> Yeah, it's just like >> Well, what do you mean by >> So, like when I write a newsletter post, I go through it probably, let's say 50 times making it better.
1:03:23
Like I start, there's like something that's the beginnings and then read through it and add to it.
1:03:26
Read through it, add to it.
1:03:28
Read through it, add to it.
1:03:29
Improve, improve, improve, improve. Like 50 times.
1:03:31
And then I have my editor go through it and then have a copy editor go through it and the designer help me.
1:03:36
>> You don't do that with your emails, though. >> I No. I should.
1:03:41
>> I do do that with my emails, which it should be.
1:03:42
I shouldn't be doing that. Like I >> to. I used to. Okay. I used to. I used to. >> But no, I do I Yeah. >> Yeah. Anyway. >> Yeah. >> Anything else?
1:03:51
>> Oh, I mean, yeah, let me You plug Do you want to plug? >> Absolutely.
1:03:54
Uh when is it coming out? >> April 7th. >> April 7th.
1:03:57
That's like a few weeks, I think, from when this comes out. Assuming this comes out. >> Yeah.
1:04:02
>> We'll see how it turns out.
1:04:03
>> We're going to check it out. >> We'll check it out.
1:04:04
If you're seeing this, we checked it out. It was a success.
1:04:08
>> Uh So, Charts for Babies coming out April 7th. >> April 7th. >> April 7th. >> Yeah.
1:04:13
>> All your favorite retailers. >> Yep. Local bookstores. >> Local bookstores.
1:04:17
>> Wherever you buy your book.
1:04:19
>> What's the age range of kids? >> It's two to four. It's called for babies.
1:04:21
I did do it a tart recently about like how long is your baby a baby?
1:04:26
And and it uh yeah, it's like baby is this infant is like one to two da da da and then like it's your baby infinity. Yeah.
1:04:36
So, I've noticed like we still call him the We're not really anymore. We like the baby. >> for sure. >> Yeah.
1:04:40
Um but he's like almost three.
1:04:40
And uh so, yeah, it could be like I would say zero to four or and uh yeah, you know what? Should I grab it? >> Yeah. Let's grab it.
1:04:49
Let's just break the frame.
1:04:51
>> I people on the recording here, but the the first like the end paper is what this is called.
1:04:55
It shows all the like things you can learn.
1:04:58
Sizes, shapes, lines, numbers, directions, feelings, colors, amounts, sharing, concepts, relationships, opposites.
1:05:03
Anyway, I'm not good at self-promotion, clearly. So, let's all stop it.
1:05:07
>> it's uh it's it's a lot of learning.
1:05:11
>> It's beautiful, it's hilarious, it's clever, it's >> early learning concepts >> funny >> It's simply illustrated. >> out. >> It's rhyming. >> Willing to it.
1:05:21
Uh congrats on releasing this book.
1:05:21
And that was a lot of work. >> Thanks. >> It was a lot of work.
1:05:25
>> I did have a lot of iterations.
1:05:27
>> The secret to success. >> Yeah. >> Iteration, editing. >> Editing. >> Okay.
1:05:32
>> Spending more time is what your old boss used to say.
1:05:34
>> Spend more time on it. >> Spend more time. >> Glad. >> Yeah. >> Anyway. >> Okay. All good? We done?
1:05:40
>> Michelle, thank you so much for being here.
1:05:42
>> Thank you for having me.
1:05:43
>> I'll ask you my typical questions that I ask at the end.
1:05:45
How can Where do people find you online?
1:05:46
How can listeners be useful to you?
1:05:49
>> My website michellemariel.
1:05:49
com r i a l or I'm also on Instagram not not too much these days but still a little bit.
1:05:54
You all can look for the book Charts for Babies. >> Great. >> Yeah.
1:05:59
I don't know if when this will be out you can either pre-order it or order it. >> Great. >> One of the Yeah.
1:06:07
>> Parentheses pre but order. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:06:09
>> Michelle, that's for me.
1:06:11
>> And I hope you like it and thank you. Thanks for having me. >> My pleasure.
1:06:15
>> I know you have a high bar. >> Absolutely. You hit it. >> Okay. Great.
1:06:18
And yeah, I hope you were okay with the interview. >> A plus.
1:06:23
It's going to It's going to do numbers. All right. Let's get out of here. Okay, bye everyone.
1:06:30
Thank you so much for listening.
1:06:30
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1:06:38
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1:06:42
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1:06:49
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