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Every single morning, the first thing I would do is cry.
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Just because being awake was that difficult.
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I felt like a like a ticking time bomb.
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It was just a matter of when, really.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world, thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow.
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Now, I am so grateful for this amazing community that we have, for each and every one of you that lend me your ears twice a week.
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And as you know, I'm always always thinking about new ways in which we can serve and support our community and your journeys towards a better understanding of yourself and a better understanding of your friends, your family members, and the people around you, and the world around us as well.
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Now, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp online therapy.
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And today, I'm joined with Hesu Joe, licensed marriage and family therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp.
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And in this new monthly series, we will be serving real listeners of the show and community.
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You'll hear the stories, the things that they struggle with, and get to sit in on a real therapy session with the intention of letting you know you're not alone.
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We're all dealing with something.
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And in every show, we will address different themes, different experiences.
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And our goal is to bring more awareness to taking care of your mental health and provide everyone the tools, resources, and encouragement they need to heal their past for a brighter future.
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Now, when we were thinking about this idea, one of the things I realized is that today we hear a lot about therapy.
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People say, "Oh, my therapist said this to me."
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Or, "I learned this in therapy."
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But, rarely have we actually sat in on a therapy session.
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We don't know what it looks like.
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And often, our family members don't know what it looks like.
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I'm hoping that this is going to be a resource that you can share with your friends, your family, so that they can understand therapy better.
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So that you can understand therapy better.
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And as a community, we can heal together as well.
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Today, Hesu and I are joined by a very wonderful and special individual named Ashley.
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And Ashley's joined us today to share her journey, to share her story.
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And I want you to welcome her and give her the deepest, warmest, most beautiful welcome from our On Purpose community, because she so kindly agreed to be a part of this today.
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So, Hesu and Ashley, so grateful to have you here.
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I'm really, really thankful to do this with both of you.
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And this is the first time we're doing this.
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Uh it's historic and it's special.
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But, thank you for being here.
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Yeah, thank you for having me.
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Yeah, thank you for including both of us. Yeah, it's exciting. It is. It is exciting.
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And, you know, we were talking a bit beforehand.
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And we really want to honor you, Ashley, and and make sure that we serve you in an effective way.
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And so, I'm going to now hand over to Hesu who's going to start this wonderful conversation and discussion. So, Hesu, over to you.
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I mean, just continuing a little bit of something Jay was mentioning, I want to make sure that you feel safe, that you feel comfortable.
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So, if there's ever a moment that the conversation is going somewhere that doesn't feel right for you, you can indicate that in whatever way that you need to. But, thank you.
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Thank you so much for being willing and open to talk about yourself for so many people because I think part of destigmatizing the idea of seeking support is seeing other people do that, right?
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Seeing other real people doing that versus just hearing commercial after ad about doing this or trying this new thing.
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So my understanding is that you've already been in therapy for some time and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what initially got you to try it the first time.
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So initially, I was so against therapy.
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I didn't want nothing to do with it.
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Like I thought I was a lost cause.
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I was like no one can help me.
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Like no one can imagine what I'm going through or even trying to tell me what I can do to get better cuz in my mind, nothing could help me. 2018, I believe.
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I overdosed on like sleeping meds and I was after that, I was kind of actually forced into it.
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Like I didn't have a choice.
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And that kind of started my therapy journey.
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And from there, I was in therapy for 2 years.
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So something going on in your life led to some unsafe behaviors like ways to cope.
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Like people often turn to substance when there is trauma because it helps numb stuff.
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It helps you not think about things.
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And sometimes you you feel good, right?
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It makes you feel not just better from this thing that has been painful, but it feels good.
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And so I'm hearing that you had kind of like a mandated route into therapy.
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You mentioned that you wouldn't have considered it.
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So what were some of your ideas about what therapy was before?
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I didn't even know where to even begin what therapy looks like.
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I just thought someone would just sit there and tell me "Oh, how do you feel about that? Mhm."
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"Oh, how do you feel about that?" You know what I mean?
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That's kind of like what I thought or like someone try to preach to me or like tell me what to do or how I should do it.
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But really, it wasn't like that at all for for It ended up being something different. Mhm, exactly.
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And I I know you can't like give an entire synopsis of the therapeutic journey that you've been through, but now that you have gone through some of these sessions and it sounds like you found out it wasn't just So, how did that make you feel?
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How did And I'm sure your therapist did ask many times, "Well, how did that make you feel?"
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What do you think of therapy now then?
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What is therapy if somebody is to ask you, a seasoned client, like what to expect if they were to try this out? Therapy is amazing.
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Honestly, I recommend it to everybody.
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They tell me the problem is like, "You know what you need? A therapist."
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And like I don't even mean that in like a negative It's not a negative thing at all.
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It's very positive and I try to enlighten that.
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But for me, when I was in therapy, like Okay, so you have these dark thoughts.
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And when you don't recognize them or you don't even know what they are, it can easily spiral out of control.
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And so with therapy, she really helped me recognize these thinking traps, is what we would call them.
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And throughout the day, I was more aware like if I was say, "I'm worthless."
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Or you you can't do that.
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Or like, "Wait a minute." Like that's not true.
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Like let's kind of lay it out and understand like what this is or like where it's coming from.
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That's something I still practice until this day, every single day.
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Catch myself thinking something negative.
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And obviously there's more to it, but something I really took away from that.
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Yeah, you're describing cognitive behavioral therapy, CBT. what it is.
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Yeah, you you went through this process where somebody helped you learn to identify and then articulate your internal process.
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Because when you can start talking about it or even understanding it a little bit better, I think that's when you really are able to make strides in terms of finding healing for yourself, the ability to let the things go that you need to, the ability to move on.
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So, you shared a little bit about what led to your first session, right?
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Somebody You were you were forced because you became unsafe to yourself. Exactly.
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Can you share now what you think led to the types of feelings you were trying to numb with substances?
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Well, I think it was just like a lead-up.
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Um there wasn't like a particular event Well, something did trigger it and I can talk about that.
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But it's overall, like I've been struggling with it for since I was a young child.
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I think it was like really just like a matter of time.
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And I think if I like received help sooner, it wouldn't have gotten to that point.
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And for like a lot of people like me, unfortunately, something that drastic has to happen for us even want to accept help. Yeah.
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The rock bottom experience, right?
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Like people Not just people Not I should say we we often feel like there's some kind of like shortcoming or something wrong with me if I need to reach out for support because a lot of us have this misconception that therapy is for the weak-minded. Yeah.
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The people that are absent of some kind of strong will of their own.
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And it takes a lot of courage, I think, to finally realize like vulnerability takes a lot of strength.
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Being able to open up to someone Being able to open up to yourself and admit a lot of stuff. Yeah.
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And so you mentioned like your life led to that moment.
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I'm sure a series of events.
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And then you also said something about something did trigger this.
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So that's something that you're willing to kind of open up about now?
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I think at that time, it would my depression really had a hold of me.
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Every single morning, I would The first thing I would do is cry.
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Just because being awake was that difficult.
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I couldn't even I didn't even want to spend the day with myself. Like mentally.
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That was going on for a couple months, and I feel like no matter what I did, like one day I would wake up.
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I feel like I would do a good job.
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But I feel like it was still not enough.
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I'm like, "Wow, I really gave it my all, and it still was not enough."
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I was like, "What is the point of being here?
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One day my ex-boyfriend and I got in a an argument and I was like, wow, I will I'm just again, I'll never be enough, I'll never be worthy.
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And normally in those situations, I will contemplate.
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I'll have a conversation with myself.
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Like, okay Ashley, you know, one more day, one more day, like just hold on, hold on.
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But that day, there was no conversation with myself.
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A switch just flipped and I just went through with it and I was like, worst case scenario, I go to sleep and I wake up like, okay, but like best case scenario for me, I go to sleep and I I don't even know what happened.
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That's what I was hoping for, but it didn't exactly go as planned, which is probably the best.
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I feel like a like a ticking time bomb.
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It was just a matter of when, really.
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And you're describing just like living for such a long time without knowing how to regulate your emotions and really process a lot of stuff, right?
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And it like blew up in an argument, sounds like.
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I want to shift gears a little bit and kind of ask a little bit more about your previous therapy experiences so far.
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So while you've been in therapy, I'm hearing you say that you've learned some skills, you've learned some things to like cope with and navigate everyday life.
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Like, how did you learn that stuff?
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Like, what is it that the therapist was doing to teach these things, right?
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So I'm a huge imagery person.
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And like one thing we would do, it was it was kind of like, how do I describe it? Like a court case, okay?
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Like you have your like the jury, you have like the lawyer stuff like that.
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One thing I struggled with was feeling like I'm not capable of taking care of myself.
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Like I'm a grown adult, I should be able to take care of myself and I I couldn't.
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And so we would break down the evidence.
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Like, okay, what's real and like what's false?
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Like let's just recognize that there.
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Because when you're this kind of mindset you tell yourself so many lies, stuff that's not even true.
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And so I would I'm like, "Okay, well I I do this.
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I do my laundry sometimes.
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Like I have been working out past couple weeks.
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Like oh, you do feed yourself."
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You have to give yourself credit for the things that you actually do.
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And you I would we would write it down in the evidence section.
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And we would write down like what was false.
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And basically like the jury would come to the conclusion like, "No, you are capable."
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So yeah, you would just really just have to in that process give yourself credit and kind of look at what was real and what wasn't.
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And you would shift those thoughts of I should be able to.
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And you change it into no, you are able to and you and you do.
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It's a lot of just shifting the way you think about stuff, taking on different perspectives, hearing someone kind of re- word or like paraphrase your life in a different way.
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It sounds like you've learned a lot about yourself, too.
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There's like a period of time where it sounds like you didn't really know who you were. Mhm.
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Like what parts of learning these skills, learning how to identify evidence for and against some kind of thought or belief helped you figure out who you are?
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Like do you feel like there was some kind of self-exploration, self- identification type of process?
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Like it's not just learning skills, right?
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It's I guess I'm I'm trying to get to your sense of any kind of change in the ways that you perceive yourself.
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Like how has that kind of shifted in that 2-year period?
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So a lot of people, I believe, feel like they go to therapy and overnight they're so much better.
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And that's just not the case.
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And for me, again, I get till this day I something I have to practice every single day.
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So there wasn't like one particular moment where I just like saw myself in like a better light.
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Eventually you keep practicing and practicing and practicing.
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And eventually you start to learn yourself.
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you start to value yourself, and you see yourself in a whole different light.
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You have You learn boundaries, and you have them now, and you have rules for yourself, and you don't allow certain people or certain situations control you as much because you have more confidence in the tools and the coping mechanisms that you have developed throughout therapy.
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And that's definitely that helped me a lot and like till this day I really do see myself in a higher light.
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And I don't let people take advantage of me as much as I used to back in the day.
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Back in the day people took advantage of you.
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In In what ways do you think that was happening that you're able to prevent now?
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Well, just one example you were mentioning earlier, people they they kind of self-sabotage, whether it's drugs, alcohol.
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For me, I didn't do any of that.
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For me, my reckless behavior was being promiscuous, and that's kind of like what I learned growing up was giving yourself for in return for love.
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So, that's what I thought I had to do in order to receive any sort sort of um love.
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And so, I would give myself to guys, you know, and like thinking, "Oh, this is how they're going to accept me.
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This is like where they're going to love me, and this is where I'm valued."
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And now it's it's not like that at all.
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I'm still like, "No, I have so much more to give than my body, you know what I mean?"
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And so, that's just one example of how things have definitely shifted for me.
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You're speaking of something huge here, right?
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Is like we as people, we learn how to not only give love, but how to receive love from very significant people really early in our lives, childhood, and those people that are supposed to love us unconditionally, keep us safe, nurture us, show us that the world is a safe place, have a lot of power over us as young children.
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And so, and what I'm hearing is when you were a young child, some kind of event or series of events taught you that love means something, you know, specific, right?
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So, I I'm curious, in your therapy experience, how much did you go back and talk about your childhood in that time?
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When I went to therapy, we did go Well, you kind of have to understand why you feel this way, and it does stem from your childhood, everything.
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So, we we really did start from there, and we broke it down from there. It really does help.
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You You start to realize what how you're acting in the present is it stems from that.
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We reenact, we try to correct what happened to us as kids in our adult relationships, and I think we all try to the best of our ability, but try to correct something that happened to us when we're six.
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We didn't We didn't know any better, you know?
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Try to make this six-year-old, you know, be smarter.
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You should have known better, which we tell ourselves all the time.
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It sounds like you learned to have compassion for the small child inside of you.
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Yes, 100% like even to this day.
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Like I'm 27 years old, and I still to this day I still feel like that little girl.
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Like I feel like it's my duty to protect myself and be that person little Ashley needed when she was younger.
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You really do feel like it's your fault, like or you should have done this differently, or you should have done that.
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You blame yourself, and you're ashamed of it, but really it's not in your control, and the people in your lives should have been the ones protecting you. Yeah, shame.
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Shame is a very powerful thing, right?
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It's like there's like a difference between when we feel guilty for doing something bad, we recognize it, this thing we probably could have made a different choice.
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But, shame is like adding some really painful and uncomfortable stuff on top of that.
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I did this bad thing because I'm a bad person, or this bad thing happened to me and I deserved it because I'm a bad person.
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Like, in therapy, do you feel like you can remember some kind of shift in that sense of shame?
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Like, something that released you from feeling like all this stuff happened to me because I'm bad.
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What about this process, what about talking about yourself and your life helped you start to shift this idea away from being a bad person?
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Cuz I'm hearing you say that you are a good person. When did that change?
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Like, how does that change?
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There's not one moment where it just shifts.
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It truly is happens over time and within my time of therapy, the 2 years, of course, I relationships, jobs, real-life situations are happening, and when I'm acting on them and I feel like, oh, this is happening to me, I deserve it anyways, I'm a piece of crap, you know what I mean?
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Like, and so you would accept that for yourself.
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But, over time you realize like, wait a minute, like I don't deserve that at all.
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It shouldn't be happening to me, you shouldn't accept that.
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And once you create those boundaries for yourself and practice it, it does get better.
18:28
You know, a lot of people wonder like, why do we go to therapy every week?
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What is it about this cadence of whatever?
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And it's like, why don't we go every day if I'm trying to solve this huge problem that's been part of my life for such a long time?
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And really, your life, your healing is what happens outside of therapy.
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It's just 1 hour a week most of the time.
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It's like, you can't expect this 1 hour a week talking to someone on a couch or whatever to to fix everything.
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It's talking about some stuff, learning some things, identifying feelings and behaviors that you could try to start working on in a different way.
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It's in your real life outside of the session that this transformation is really happening.
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For some people, very gradually and over a long period of time.
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You mentioned you're 27, that's like, you know, potentially 25 years of learning how to be in a particular space in a body and it's going to take time to like unlearn, relearn, and start seeing the world in a way that is safe, right?
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So, what would you say like if you had not gone to therapy, you know, where where would we be? Where would you be? Oh my goodness.
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Like, if I never went to therapy, I would not be the person that I am today, nor be the person that I'm becoming.
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My self-awareness has grown so much, and I'm able to take care of myself more mentally.
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I'm able to value my thoughts more.
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Or just like, again, if I'm negative, I recognize it real quick and I try to change it into something more enlightening and more actually true. I go from false to true.
20:06
You know, people come to therapy and over time after what's called the assessment period where your therapist is getting to know you and asking you about your family history and like all your school stuff and everything you remember from your family childhoods, whatever.
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Once you move past this initial period where you're building this relationship, you start thinking about goals.
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What are the goals that I want to work on?
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And so you and your therapist like agree on these usually two or three major things that you want to achieve through this process.
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And usually you're looking for something called smart goals.
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People talk about this all the time.
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You want to be specific, measurable.
20:43
What's not always explicitly stated as a goal is increased self-awareness, but I think that's always going to be an outcome.
20:52
At least I think most therapists are hoping that that's an outcome for their clients.
20:56
So, I'm really glad that you were able to even identify that that's something that's shifted for you is self-awareness.
21:03
honestly without my self-awareness, I I I would be so lost cuz I do believe self-awareness is the first step.
21:07
Like you have to even recognize what you're doing or how you're behaving or what you're thinking about yourself.
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That's where it's starting like from recognizing it.
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So if you don't recognize that you really can't move forward or even try to get better.
21:19
You were talking about the assessments. Right?
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And so maybe like every 6 months we would review.
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And when I was feeling better, you know, I'm doing better.
21:30
We were reviewing from 6 months ago. And it was so sad.
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I was I was my heart was breaking for 6 months ago Ashley.
21:39
And she was say she was saying referring to her as another I'll say as but that's how I feel.
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It's like I feel like a new person.
21:45
Like honestly, but she was just referring to her like as self like unworthy, I'll never get better.
21:49
She's like it was this very very dark thoughts.
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And I was so sad for I'm like, oh my god. I'm like that was me.
22:00
Are you sure you're on the you're on the right assessment?
22:02
And like how I said these things? And yeah, it's true.
22:04
It was like it was a transformation and to reflect back on all of those and like how I was feeling where I am today.
22:14
Um it was a good feeling cuz I wasn't feeling that way any longer. Yeah.
22:16
What you said is like exciting to me because you're describing this very powerful component of not just therapy, but just like tracking tracking your thoughts, tracking your moods, your behaviors.
22:30
This is like why a lot of people choose to journal.
22:31
They like to look back and see how far they've come.
22:33
Like if you never wrote down or put somewhere where you could remember where you were, it's very very hard to identify how much better you've become, how much better you're feeling.
22:44
So in therapy it's a really like specific, intentional place to be able to have someone else doing that with you, tracking stuff, bringing your attention back to like, "Remember what you said last time?
22:56
Cuz that doesn't really fit with what you're saying today."
22:59
I'm hearing that you had a great therapist, really.
23:01
It's like somebody that Yeah, is with you in this moment, but also taking you back to relevant moments in the past to make connections.
23:09
This is what helps people gain better self-awareness, because self-aware people think about themselves in every chapter and season of their lives, try to relate the past to the present, and how that's going to affect their future.
23:22
And really, somebody that's not self-aware is going to be really hard for them to practice empathy, the be able ability to feel for another.
23:31
So, can you say anything about like your experience with empathy and whether you notice like a shift with that with your improved self-awareness?
23:37
Yeah, so I was considered myself an empathetic person even before then, but there would be times where I'd feel like a robot, like almost incapable of feeling sorry for somebody.
23:51
I like just I feel like I might I feel bad cuz I'm like I feel like I should feel something towards them, but I don't. And I I I really do.
23:58
I think that helped me later on down the line to be more empathetic, 100%.
24:03
That's like a big life thing.
24:06
It's like I think we're all hardwired to connect, to want to be with other people, to have intimacy with folks that are important to us, and how can you do that if you don't even know who you are? Yes, 100%.
24:16
When you're really not sure of who you are, I'm I'm I mean, I don't know who I am.
24:24
I'm still growing, you know, but at that time, when you you're just kind of like I would describe myself as a loose cannon, you know what I mean?
24:29
Like I couldn't process any type of emotions or receive love.
24:34
Like I didn't know what that looked like.
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I didn't know how to accept it nor like return it.
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It really affected how I dealt with relationships, friendship-ships, careers, just because I didn't even know how certain emotions or certain situations would look like.
24:52
Like I didn't know what was normal.
24:52
We have these wounds inside, right?
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That I think a lot of us want to heal.
24:55
We attempt to heal them in so many different ways, whether it's substance that helps numb these wounds a little bit, or reckless sexual behaviors where we're trying to connect, where we're chasing intimacy, but it's still a little bit different.
25:09
Or, you know, burying ourselves in work.
25:11
Like, all this stuff that we're trying to do to feel normal, like you say.
25:15
What I'm hearing is like a larger acceptance of just you as you are, that you don't have to perform, that you don't have to be like a specific model of someone in order to be worthy of anything.
25:27
You really accomplished a lot. Thank you.
25:32
What would you say were your initial goals?
25:33
I mean, you know, past the point of like being forced into therapy, when did it become a choice to you?
25:38
There were times where I I I would look forward to therapy.
25:43
And things would happen throughout the week.
25:44
And I'd go to therapy I used to go to therapy once a week.
25:48
I would leave the room the the house and I'd just be like, my therapist is going to get a earful today.
25:51
Like, I couldn't wait to share what I was going through with my therapist.
25:56
Like, someone who understand, wasn't judging me, someone who can break it down for me.
26:00
And that was really refreshing cuz I didn't I don't I don't I I still don't really have that support system family-wise.
26:08
So, having that one person in my life that I can trust and turn to, it was amazing.
26:14
Somebody that's listening to you to respond to you about you.
26:18
You mentioned like, I don't have this in my family.
26:20
And like, even people with very loving, very caring, very well-meaning families still don't really always have that with family because those good intentions also come with their own baggage and their own feelings and their own agendas of what they want between them and you.
26:37
Just somebody to break it down, just hear you out, help you help mirror stuff, right?
26:41
Like, therapists say like, we we're just here to hold up a mirror, right?
26:45
To help you see see yourself a little bit better cuz we all go through trauma that that makes it very difficult for us to like see past all this stuff that we build up to protect ourselves from future traumas.
26:58
In therapy the therapist asks you a lot of questions.
27:01
What's your sense of like what these questions are for?
27:03
Why do we ask so many questions or why do you think that we ask so many questions?
27:08
In the beginning obviously I'm just like nosy.
27:13
I'm like okay like I was like jeez my social security too?
27:19
I'm like But really it's it's come to find out like again holding the mirror up it's really reflection of like who you are as a person how did you become this person why are you acting this way?
27:29
So every question there is really intention behind it it's not just some aimless question like trying to be nosy you know like they're not judging you.
27:39
So I feel like every single question from my therapist you know there was she was just looking out for me and wanted to help me become more aware of why I was behaving a certain way or acting or thinking a certain way.
27:51
Yeah all the questions intention I like that you used that because you know sometimes therapists who are just people we're just people um sometimes those curious questions or how you would say nosy they do pop up here and there but it is like a a therapist's uh kind of duty to refrain from doing that.
28:08
Like you might be talking about something from your life and then you mention like a restaurant that I've been to and my initial reaction of wanting to talk about and make this connection like oh I've been there and I got this item from the menu.
28:21
Like those things we often refrain from that because in therapy it is about you.
28:26
Of course it's going to somewhat be about me cuz I'm a human and we're connecting as two people and my experiences beliefs and values are going to be present in this room.
28:36
Um but it's very important for therapists not to impose those things right or like make you have particular goals or try to get you to think the way that I do. Very unbiased. Yeah.
28:51
Very judge non-judgmental. It was very neutral.
28:55
Like you said, she didn't try to impose her opinions or thoughts.
29:02
To an extent with the thoughts, but opinions she she never really did that. Right. Right.
29:07
The opinion stuff were like we're taught and trained to like leave that stuff outside the door.
29:11
Go to your own therapist so you're really sure of what your stance is on a bunch of stuff are so that you don't have to come into a session and argue clients about it. Yeah.
29:21
Especially like, you know, heated climates like we have in current modern society.
29:27
Um I can't imagine going to a therapy session she's telling me no, you're wrong. I'm just like Right.
29:33
And like this debate, you know what I mean?
29:34
It's not like that at all.
29:36
I'm very glad you had that because a personal experience, which I think a lot of people can relate to, is we turn to sometimes a best friend and, you know, older family member, maybe our mom.
29:46
We turn to these people with the expectation that they will be there for us without judgment.
29:52
That they'll respond to us in a way that's loving and caring and nurturing.
29:56
And a lot of times those responses are loving, caring, and nurturing, but they're also filled with the judgment, the criticisms of you could have done it this way.
30:06
It probably would have been better if you thought about it this way.
30:09
So, family very well-meaning, but also emotionally charged, also like entangled into your life and they have their own like motivations, things that they're trying to accomplish to propel this relationship in whatever direction.
30:26
When you're in such a vulnerable state and you don't know what's going on, and even though maybe a family member has the great great intentions and they're basically putting their thoughts and opinions onto you, you're in a really vulnerable state and you might take their advice, and it's just totally wrong and totally not the right direction to go.
30:47
So, even though family members are supportive, therapy is definitely highly recommended from my end.
30:56
Makes me wonder like what what big differences You've shared some already, but some other differences that you can think of between going to like a really close friend for support versus talking to a therapist?
31:09
So, even just when I was a teenager, I turned to my best friend, and it's not her fault because she's she's not licensed.
31:16
She's She's just a kid, too.
31:18
And I'm like, "Hey, I think I'm really depressed."
31:20
And she's like, "You're not depressed. You're just sad." I was like, "Okay."
31:23
And then my ex-boyfriend from around that time, I would try to express my thoughts and my concerns, and he thought I was looking for attention and make a little like snickers with his friends like, "Oh my god, this girl's crazy." You know what I mean? Like, "Psycho."
31:38
And at this point, you're like, "You don't even understand yourself."
31:42
She's like, "Oh, I am psycho. I'm real crazy.
31:43
Like, I'm going to show you crazy."
31:46
Like, you act on that, you know?
31:46
Cuz that's what you believe you are.
31:51
And my mom, that's a different story, you know?
31:53
I tried telling her I'm like, "I'm so angry. I feel this way."
31:56
I'm like, "I don't understand why.
31:57
Like, I think I need help."
32:00
And I didn't know what was wrong with me or why I'm this way.
32:01
I just knew it wasn't normal.
32:05
And she doesn't even lack or she doesn't even have the depth to understand such a concept.
32:13
And so, maybe she cared for me, but she wasn't the ideal person to try to go for help.
32:21
And so, those were my three closest people in my life.
32:23
Again, it's not my ex-boyfriend's fault or my best friend's fault.
32:26
They they don't know any better. Yeah.
32:28
But as a a parental figure, I definitely needed more guidance and more direction, and a lot of people don't have that.
32:37
And I think that's another thing that stir like steered me away from wanting to receive any more help.
32:41
Just because of those kind of experiences.
32:43
I'm like, "Wow, no one understands and no one's going to want to help me."
32:49
Yeah, I mean this is what happens when I open up is I met with like rejection or someone withdrawing or someone shutting down or someone telling me I'm wrong, invalidating my experience, saying that I'm not really feeling the thing that I think I'm feeling.
33:04
You feel like you shouldn't be feeling this way.
33:05
Like you don't have a right to or like you're just looking for attention or I people have it worse.
33:13
You know, like why do you feel that way?
33:14
You You have no right to feel that way.
33:17
So, that really does affect you and Yeah. how you betray people.
33:23
There are people out there that have it much worse than you.
33:27
I think that is like someone's attempt to help you feel better because they're like trying to minimize the issue that you're bringing to them.
33:33
Or even your friend, like, "You're not depressed, you're just sad."
33:36
I can see that being a 16-year-old solid attempt at making the situation less scary, but not just for you, but less scary for her. Oh, yeah.
33:46
Same thing with your ex-boyfriend, like making a joke of this thing that you're bringing up that's actually really uncomfortable for you.
33:52
A lot of people respond that way because they don't know how else to handle it.
33:57
They can't hold space for it because they're not really sure what to do and they start feeling heightened.
34:01
They start feeling emotional themselves and then their own defense mechanisms start coming out.
34:06
And some people use humor, um which can be very harmful to like the people around them.
34:10
Yeah, and then, you know, with mom, it's a lot of moms.
34:15
They really mean well, but they are also people and a lot of moms have I mean, plenty of moms have been to therapy, but I think a lot of them haven't.
34:24
And this thing that you mentioned of like maybe she doesn't have the depth, it's probably she doesn't have the training, she doesn't have the understanding to help you feel safe in the feelings that you're having.
34:34
And also, you know, our parents' first instinct is like, "Oh my god, my child is hurt.
34:38
I have to make them feel better."
34:39
versus "My child is hurt.
34:39
We're going to hold space for that and let them know it's okay to be hurt." Right?
34:46
And that's like a big difference between parents and a therapist.
34:48
A therapist is not going to try to immediately put a band-aid on it, but it's like, "Let's like really get in there."
34:55
Let's take the band-aid off.
34:55
Let's see what's How bad is this wound?
34:56
Like, what happened to it?
34:59
Like, how did you even get the wound? You know what I mean? Oh, the wound. Bring it back.
35:01
I think I forgot to close that loop, you know?
35:03
We have wounds inside and we do all these things trying to heal them.
35:09
Ultimately, if you don't heal that stuff, it will end up like bleeding out on other people. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
35:16
Yeah, it's the gory scene.
35:18
Yeah, the gory scene of like our emotional blood and baggage just like following us around everywhere and it's it's contagious, you know?
35:25
It's like any feeling is contagious when you're with other people and when you're not well, other people feel that, right?
35:33
So I imagine a cloud over me.
35:36
It's just raining, you know?
35:38
I have my boyfriend here. He's getting rained on. It's poured.
35:40
And I feel like it was almost my fault.
35:42
Like, I brought this into your life.
35:44
Like, you didn't deserve this.
35:45
I'm just I really felt like I was bringing people down with me and they didn't need that.
35:51
And that was another thing that led to why I did what I did.
35:53
Everyone Everyone would be better off without me.
35:55
So, if you don't address the help, blood's everywhere, you know?
36:00
I think we're we're touching on so many stuff that's very relatable to a lot of people and I'm hearing you sing praises of how therapy's been helpful.
36:09
Like, what would you say to someone that's like maybe in a similar head space to where you were before of thinking like it's just not going to help.
36:17
Anytime I've tried to open up to somebody, it led to something worse for me.
36:23
Any pieces of advice to give to someone that's still very skeptical, resistant, fearful of trying this thing?
36:27
Number one, I would say, do not tell them how you think they should feel.
36:33
So, if you try to tell someone like they're going to automatically tune you out.
36:37
Like, you're automatically disqualified like in that like who are you to tell me cuz like So, just listen to them.
36:41
Like, listen to what they have to say.
36:47
And I wouldn't, again, put your opinions or your personal thoughts on it.
36:50
For me, personally, because I have been through it, I would just be there with them and this is so powerful to me.
36:59
Rather than, oh, you should do this, I would say, we should go to therapy.
37:06
Like, let me help you find somebody.
37:09
Because I didn't have that support.
37:09
I didn't have someone who was going to hold my hand and help me find the help.
37:16
So, for me, I would I would just hold their hand and try to find somewhere to get them help that they're feel comfortable.
37:22
And you're like I'm trying feeling like emotional because that's what you're doing here, right?
37:26
You're like figuratively holding the hands now of so many people by sharing your experience and being so open about all this stuff that you've been through and like you know, rehashing a lot of your own thought process from the past that weren't very healthy.
37:38
Sometimes people just need permission.
37:40
I don't know if that's like from themselves or from other people to do something good and do something nice for themselves. Nice for me.
37:48
And while your your journey to therapy wasn't quite like I'm going to do this for me today.
37:56
Um you know, at some point you were choosing to keep going back. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah.
38:01
And would you ever do it again?
38:03
Would you ever go back to 100%.
38:04
Like, I already know I'm going to go back to therapy.
38:06
Not because I'm depressed, but because I just need that extra helping hand, you know what I mean?
38:11
I I I definitely think I'll need therapy for the rest of my life.
38:14
Not because there's something wrong with me or like I'm suicidal again or something like that.
38:19
Just because it really is helpful. What's helpful about it?
38:23
It really helps you understand why you feel a certain way about a certain certain situation.
38:32
And I know as I get get older, maybe marriage or kids, I'll have those conflicts of like, I'm letting my child down.
38:40
I can't provide for them.
38:40
And you know, that will probably stem from how I feel certain times today or how I can't provide for myself.
38:48
And I know that probably will not be the case as I get older, but I'm sure therapy will help me understand that.
38:57
So, it's helpful for navigating life's everyday challenges, right?
39:00
Like we're all posed with a thousand decisions to make per day.
39:05
And most of the time we're making those decisions largely on our own.
39:09
And that's the interesting thing about therapy.
39:11
It's not that your therapist is making further decisions for you, but helping you identify what decisions like lie in there already.
39:17
Like you already know the answers and the truth to what life is.
39:23
We all know that for ourselves somewhere deep inside, and I think therapy really helps us like unlock the stuff that we've pushed down.
39:31
You know, things like not having confidence or not believing in ourselves to make the right choices or not feeling worthy, not feeling adequate.
39:39
It really makes it hard to listen to ourselves and to hear those deep down truths that already exist.
39:46
Yeah, like you don't believe the truth at all.
39:48
Like you could look in the mirror and be like, you're so ugly.
39:49
Like obviously obviously like you're not ugly. You know what I mean?
39:52
But all truths are out the window and like you don't even value your opinions.
39:56
When you're dealing with like mental health issues. Yeah.
40:03
So, you mentioned you've experienced depression, which does sometimes include feeling sad, but like what how did depression manifest in your life?
40:10
Like what made you feel like this is the word I'm going to use to describe how I'm feeling to other people.
40:16
For somebody listening to this conversation like that might be feeling depressed themselves, but they don't have the words to articulate that yet, like what would you clue them into?
40:25
Like how do you know that you're depressed?
40:26
For me, I was very, very angry.
40:29
The moment I woke up, I just filled with so much rage.
40:34
And it'll be to the point where I just want to cry.
40:36
That's how like angry I was.
40:39
And obviously, you're being suicidal. I don't want to live. That's not normal.
40:44
Like I just want to end my life and you're sitting there have a pro pros and cons list trying to think out like, okay, like why should I not do it? Like that's not normal.
40:53
And just constantly feeling worthless, like not feeling like you deserve to live.
41:02
These I knew were not normal.
41:05
I felt that way like as a young child.
41:06
Just It started with the anger.
41:08
That's why I can tell you it was It started with anger.
41:12
And that's insight because if you ask a therapist, how does depression manifest in youth, in small children, and anger is actually something that someone needs to assess for.
41:22
Um temper tantrums, this like really disregulated way of being.
41:27
If you're waking up really pissed off every day, that's not normal.
41:31
Yeah, and I definitely encourage parents cuz I see it a lot.
41:33
Like if a child does act out every all children act out, but if it's like a constant pattern and you're punishing them, I think that's like the worst.
41:42
I'm like, no, take a take a moment, listen to your child, try to have a a conversation and understand why are they feeling this way?
41:51
And you'd you'd probably learn a lot about your child and realize punishing them, sending them room, making it worse essentially is not the way to go, but getting help and probably the parent needs help, too.
42:02
You know, it's it's a it's a partnership between the child and the parent. Yeah.
42:10
Some education around just emotions, how they how they creep up, like what they look like in kids.
42:15
I mean, small kids especially like their primary language is not English or whatever language it is where they're growing up. It's play.
42:23
They they understand the world through how they play, how they engage in a very active way outside of just like verbal communication.
42:32
So yes, like paying attention to kids' mood, so you paying attention to your own mood and recognizing something's not normal.
42:39
Yeah, and if I like my mom was more aware and more educated about something like that, I probably wouldn't have grew up the way I did in certain ways.
42:54
Yeah, plenty of parents they mean well.
42:57
They really tried their best.
42:57
Um, this speaks to like the importance of education around emotional intelligence and maybe incorporating a little bit more into like standard curriculums at school, how to just like tune into your feelings, how your feelings affect your everyday life.
43:13
I imagine many of us could have benefited if our moms were a little bit more aware about all this stuff. Yeah, 100%.
43:22
Yeah, I don't mean to laugh, but some people are really they're really are clueless, I should say.
43:26
And I really think it's very helpful to start with children or even teenagers.
43:31
I think that's really where it begins cuz that's where you start to become programmed to be a certain way.
43:39
And you're going to move out of your parents' house and you're going to live live your life, but yet you're still acting a certain way.
43:43
And like you don't even realize it's coming from your childhood.
43:47
Like you just think you're some like adult with an anger problem or you're just like super depressed and you don't even know why.
43:53
And that will carry on with you if you don't recognize that you have you have a a mental health problem.
44:00
And therapy helped you in in those ways of recognition and you know, connecting the dots between what happens in childhood and how you're relating to other people now. Mhm.
44:11
Thank you, Ashley, for opening up so much and sharing about your journey.
44:19
It's really um you know, just sitting and listening to you both have a discussion about the journey you've been on.
44:28
Also hearing you open up about your feelings as someone who's in the room observing.
44:34
It's actually really quite remarkable when you get to just be patient and listen to someone reflect on their own emotions because it encourages you to do the same for yourself.
44:46
And so I know that, you know, to the hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people that will listen to this afterwards, I'm hoping that everyone who's listening and watching is also thinking about the questions that Ashley
44:58
is asking, thinking about the ideas that you're mentioning and are gaining that self-awareness and uh regulation of their emotions and their understanding of themselves because it's strange to sit in on a conversation, I think. Most of the time we spend our time in
45:14
Most of the time we spend our time in conversations thinking, "What am I going to say?" Yeah.
45:18
Like, "Oh, what what should I say back to that person?"
45:23
And obviously, as we see with Ashley, what she's doing is she's trying not to project her own feelings so that she can truly listen to you.
45:32
And then I've just been silent for the last nearly 40 minutes, 45 minutes, and that's actually a really powerful practice, too, because now you're not sitting there thinking, "What should I say?" or "How do I sound?"
45:46
or "Oh, I can relate or not relate."
45:49
or judging, but I can just observe.
45:53
And so I think this has been a really powerful practice even for me to just sit and listen and and sit and hear.
46:00
I think it's just been a healthy conversation to have a discussion about, you know, the benefits you've seen and the growth you've seen and I think that's a great uh starting point for this series and and just understanding the benefits of therapy and someone who's, you know, committed to 2 years, 2 years, right?
46:18
Someone who's committed to 2 years of therapy and and the benefits they've seen.
46:22
So, I'm very happy with the fact that everyone who's been listening and watching has had the opportunity to sit in on a conversation with a therapist and and see how where some of the questioning can go.
46:33
And and also to sit with someone who has done therapy who is able to articulate and explain their experiences, you know, clearly Yeah. and concisely.
46:43
I know there's a lot of people who are like me.
46:46
Like, I don't have a family to turn to or at the time many friends.
46:50
I didn't have a huge support system.
46:52
So, I really truly felt very, very alone.
46:55
So, to take those steps, it takes a lot of courage and I hope people listening really take away like, even though I am I am alone, like I don't have that support system, there's still hope for me. Like, I'm still worthy.
47:11
And I hope I really, really, really, really hope that they do the research and really find someone they they connect with and I do not want them to just get discouraged if they get a therapist and there's they're not connecting cuz not every therapist is going to be for you and I think it's very, very important to find the one that that is for you.
47:33
And I really just hope people who are listening really, really, really, really do receive the help that they need cuz there's nothing wrong or negative about therapy whatsoever.
47:47
It truly is life-changing and I do not regret it at all.
47:50
I know I'm going to do it again.
47:53
And I'm so grateful for my therapist.
47:57
When we like how we were on the phone during the COVID times and we were like saying our goodbyes.
48:00
You know, she's like, "I'm so proud of you, Ashley.
48:02
Like, you really have come so far."
48:05
And I I just started crying cuz she really was almost kind of like that mother figure that I never really had and like someone who truly cared about me and wanted better for me. Yeah.
48:17
You're just crying so many like pinnacles of things that therapists learn about in grad school.
48:20
Like, you know, psychologists love to label label human behaviors with all kinds of words and stuff.
48:27
But like, the therapist becoming like a mother figure to you, that's that happens a lot, right?
48:33
It's It's what we call like a corrective emotional experience.
48:37
This person that is validating of you, that can listen to you, nurture you, kind of show you what gentle love and acceptance looks like and feels like in a really controlled safe setting.
48:52
And it's not that like, you know, therapists are not set up to like become your new family.
48:55
I didn't say that, but I think experiences that come through sessions can help someone recognize like, "I can create my own family, whatever that means to me."
49:04
Like, the stuff that I feel like is supposed to come from family, which is love, acceptance, support, I can provide that to myself and I can learn how to do that. Yes.
49:14
With this other person that can model for me because unfortunately my mom didn't or, you know, whatever it is. Amazing.
49:21
Well, thank you both so much for helping us sit in on that conversation and to observe and learn and listen and um just really grateful for both of your honesty and transparency and As if for guiding this conversation and, you know, asking really insightful, thoughtful questions to really extrapolate the learnings and I hope everyone who's been listening and watching back at home, uh you felt you've got a bit more of an insight.
49:48
And we're going to be doing a lot of these episodes where we dive into different themes, have different conversations, uh look at this from different angles, and I'd love to hear your feedback.
49:56
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
49:57
I'd love to hear what you learned, what surprised you, maybe maybe something you didn't expect, or maybe something that you felt reassured by.
50:05
I genuinely love to hear from you, so make sure you share your feedback in the reviews, on Instagram, on Twitter, wherever else you're active, please do let us know, because I'm always looking out to see what is it that resonated with you, what is it that connected with you.
50:19
And for those of you who don't know, this episode was brought to you by BetterHelp, which is helping millions of people by making professional therapy more affordable and accessible than ever.
50:31
And I have shared my own top three reasons why I believe everyone can try therapy.
50:38
Uh and to check that out, you can visit betterhelp. com/jaystop3.
50:44
Uh and so that's betterhelp.
50:44
com/jays, j a y s, that's my name.
50:48
t o p 3, uh and when you do that, everyone who does that will get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up as well.
50:57
So that's for our On Purpose listeners.
51:00
And so remember that you deserve to invest in yourself, and BetterHelp is a great way to start to do that.
51:07
Thank you so much to Asu, thank you to Ashley. Yes, thank you.
51:09
Thank you both for joining me today.
51:17
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51:21
I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book Think Like a Monk from thinklikeamonkbook. com.
51:31
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