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Is it true that 50% of marriages ended in divorce >> actually a little over 50%.
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Yeah, it is um it's a frightening statistic when you hear it because I I've often said it it it actually creates the legal supposition that marriage is a negligent activity.
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You know that in the law we have this idea of negligence and recklessness.
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So negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial uh but but high uh likelihood uh of harm and recklessness is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm.
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And you could make the argument that if something 50% or more of the time ends in pain and heartbreak that it's actually reckless to do it.
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And you know, I I'm always vexed by the thought that how do we gauge the success of something?
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And so divorce is clearly a failure of marriage to sustain.
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But then you have to think if over 50% of marriages end in divorce, how many people are unhappy with the decision they made to marry but stay together >> for the children or because they don't want to give away half their belongings.
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>> If you're conservative and say it's another 10%, maybe 20%.
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>> Now we're talking about something that has a fail rate of 70% or so.
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That to me is just shocking. It's it's stunning.
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But the statistic that people don't talk about is that 86% of people who divorce are remarried within 5 years of their divorce.
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Which to me actually speaks to the importance of marriage that that someone who's gone through this process, it's ended in a manner different than what they had hoped for, right?
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And they still, okay, let's try it again, you know?
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And what does that say about our need for that connection?
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How important it is to us as humans.
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So yeah, but but the unfortunate news is that that is a very high fail rate by any regard. >> Yeah.
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And I think most things if you heard something had that fail rate, you'd probably not even try >> even remotely.
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>> Even even with anything, right?
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So if someone said, "Hey, this investment has a, you know, 50% chance of failing or going wrong, you'd probably not consider it."
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>> Why do people still get married?
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>> I think probably for a number of reasons.
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I mean, one is it it's assumed for many years that it's the right thing to do, which is in and of itself strange because the the supposition that one should marry in the face of those statistics is shocking.
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And even the fact that it's considered indelicate, like if someone said to me, "Oh, Jim, I'm getting married."
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The proper response is, "Oh, congratulations. That's wonderful."
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But it would be perfectly reasonable to say, "Really?" Why? >> Why? Like why? Why are you doing that?
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Like what is the problem to which marriage is a solution?
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What what is the reason that this particular permutation of a personal religious and/or legal relationship >> is important to you or to your soon-to-be spouse?
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>> But it's considered terribly rude.
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I would never in in polite society say to someone, "Why are you getting married?"
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Because it just feels like such a pessimistic view of things.
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But but it isn't pessimistic if you look at the numbers.
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And I actually think it's an interesting thought exercise for people to have.
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You know, why am I getting married?
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What is the problem to which marriage is a solution?
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We look at any other technology in our life.
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You know, this mic stand, you know, the glass of water and I can say, okay, the problem to which this is a solution is it would be awkward for me to hold a microphone in my hand and and we need to amplify our voices in some fashion.
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So, you can answer the question pretty easily.
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But marriage, even asking the question is considered rude.
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>> Yeah, it's that's I've never thought about it like that.
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And I'm actually thinking about as you're saying, it's fascinating that we've confused the emphasis on a wedding versus a marriage, too.
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So, >> right, >> you spend more time planning your wedding >> than you do preparing for a marriage.
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>> Well, I I jokingly talk about the wedding industrial complex.
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You know, that it's it's a, you know, billions of dollars business.
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And of course, like what about it wouldn't be appealing?
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I mean, weddings are I love them.
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They're I get I get misty eyed at weddings.
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Nothing about my job has made me the slightest bit less excited about a wedding.
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>> The idea of two people coming together and standing before family and friends and saying, "I found my person out of 8 billion. I found my person." You know it.
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How could you not get sentimental about that?
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It's it's such a beautiful thing.
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And >> but you know, saying I do isn't saying I can.
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Like at best it's saying I'll try.
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>> And and we just don't we don't say that out loud.
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And I think we might be poor for it.
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I think it would be better if we had a more honest and realistic view of marriage because there's nothing more fun than getting married.
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But being married is much more challenging.
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>> And we spend so much time in the excitement and the sort of pherommones of, you know, we're going to have this cake and we're going to have this, which by the way, of course, it's so much fun.
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Like any event with cake I'll go to.
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But it it it really is something that we would do well to take the being married part >> from the beginning more seriously. >> Yeah.
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I've I've officiated a few weddings and I there's never been a time when I haven't not wanted to cry.
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>> Like I'm trying to hold it together and the only thing in my head is don't cry. Don't cry. Hold it together.
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It's so hard because I'm the same.
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I love >> I'm fully present.
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It's something that gets me right in my soul.
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>> I love hearing for them. >> Yeah.
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And I love hearing the speeches and the vows and >> you know written I'll share a personal experience.
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My my oldest son uh Noah got married a couple of weeks ago. >> Oh wow. Congratulations. >> And wonderful. What a Yeah. Why? Exactly why.
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Uh he has good health insurance and she want No, they they have a lot of they had good reasons.
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He's my son so he's and he's also a lawyer so he's he's thought it through and she's a lawyer so >> but I knew I would be very moved by it.
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I'm I'm I'll let you in on a secret that that I'm I'm very sensitive.
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You know, I um for someone who's been described as the sociopath you want on your side in the courtroom, I I'm actually I think my superpower is that I'm extremely sensitive and I'm very prone to tears and I'm very prone to usually tears over things that move me >> and my son and his now wife.
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I have to get used to saying that because it was girlfriend for a long time, then it was fiance and now it's wife.
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>> They wrote their own vows >> and I fully expected that I would get tei during the ceremony.
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But when she was reading her vows to him to hear someone talking about this little boy that I helped raise to a man and saying, you know, you're the strongest man I know.
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like you make me feel so safe.
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Like I I could not I tears pouring down my face because it was just such it felt like a finish line of sorts.
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It felt like oh okay like that's the man. She sees that man.
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Like I know I don't see my own kids clearly. Nobody does.
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We all think they're the most beautiful, handsome, wonderful.
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But to have this really intelligent young woman, you know, looking at my son and saying like, "You're a hero to me."
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was one of the most powerful emotional moments in my life.
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And >> I I found myself, as I do at every wedding, just just cheering for them, just hoping they'll defy every statistic and every odd and they'll they'll keep the feeling they have at that moment. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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Uh, and at the same time it's it's that paradox, isn't it?
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Because I think I got married 9 years ago and still with my wife and we've been together for 12 years.
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>> And now I look back and I think to myself, I didn't know >> I didn't have a clue. >> How could you? >> What I was saying? >> Yeah.
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>> Like I said I loved my wife that day and that I >> believed that, >> you know, we were meant for each other and everything and I had no clue.
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like the last 9 years have been so much more illuminating about a commitment I made and it's almost like I made a commitment with far less information, far less insight, far less growth.
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>> And so what I wanted to dive into with you and there's so many things I want to unpack from everything you've just said, but I want to help our audience understand from your perspective and from your insight and from your experience.
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Like we've just talked about the most beautiful moment and you hearing you describe your son's vows and that moment.
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It's I there can't be anyone who's listening right now who isn't just thinking, "Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. I love that."
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>> And then you're someone who's seen countless couples >> break apart, get divorced.
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>> My day job is facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages. >> Yeah.
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and and I've done it for 25 years at the highest level.
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And and um you know, I'm very glad it has not taken out of me my appreciation for love and my appreciation for how important romantic love is and how beautiful of a connection two people can have.
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But yeah, I've I have seen good people at their absolute worst.
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>> And I have seen intimacy weaponized in the most brutal ways.
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And so I see the risk that that we take.
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But what what it causes me to be very mindful of is how brave it is to love >> because you should be scared to get married.
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You should be scared to love anything.
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Like to love anything is sort of insane because every marriage ends.
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It ends in death or divorce but it ends.
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And to love anything is to open yourself up to the inevitability of losing it.
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And so there's a good argument to be made that you just should never open yourself up that way because the pain that that will come is so great.
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And yet we love >> we love constantly, you know, because >> the reward of it is so amazing and so beautiful.
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And and that's why, you know, if you're not scared, it's not brave.
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It's only brave if you're scared and you do it anyway.
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And so a wedding to me feels brave.
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Like the the marriage you just described, you know, you and your wife are nine years in, so you're not newly weds anymore. The honeymoon's passed. >> Yeah.
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Especially if you have children.
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When you have children, that it's really >> we haven't yet. >> Okay.
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So that that's that's another chapter. >> Yeah.
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So what you'll what you'll see though is even what you're saying now that oh these nine years were something different of a journey than I anticipated.
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And I promise that the next nine and the next nine and the next nine you have no idea.
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You have no none of us do.
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You know my my grandmother used to say if you want to make God laugh tell him your plans. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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And so I but the idea too again of having a partner in that of someone who like I'll hold your hand, you'll hold mine, and let's let's do this together because it's so much better, you know?
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And and I I don't think I can learn everything I need to know about myself from myself. Like I need help.
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I need people who see my blind spots and love me and are cheering for the good in me, you know, and forgiving the weakness in me.
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So there's something to me about again even even in facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages and seeing how wrong this can go.
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It's like you know in the presence of death we're most aware of the beauty of our life and and in the presence of illness we're so aware of our good health.
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I think doing what I do has made me appreciate love in a very deep way.
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There's such a truth in in what I'm hearing from you and even even sensing and feeling from the way you're sharing what you're sharing.
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And it's it's so interesting because if someone's scared before they get married or before they fall in love, we usually tell them that's a bad thing. >> Yeah.
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>> We usually be like, "Oh, no, no, you should be sure. You should know." Right?
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Like if you don't know, and it's almost like, "Well, no. How how could you?"
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Like it's it's it's putting yourself, you know, it's trying to get someone to hold your heart and >> hold this fragile, vulnerable, deepest part of yourself >> and not knowing if they'll be able to hold it properly for >> Yeah. >> decades and decades.
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>> You know, I'm 52 years into my journey of being a human being and I'm >> I'd like to think I'm starting to become myself.
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starting to understand myself much better >> and that's after you know a long time of reflection and therapy and all those things.
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things. So it's so hard to know yourself >> to then know another person, you know, and then to to be in such an intimate tie with this person and again in a way that requires a tremendous amount if you're going to do it right of vulnerability,
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cander, bravery, just the ability to to to say, you know, I mean, it really is almost discipline, like the trading what you want now for what you want most, you know, and what you want most is deep long-term from connection with this other person. But sometimes what you
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But sometimes what you want now is just like let's get through the day, let's not have an argument or a difficult conversation.
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But sometimes, you know, just like we have to go to the gym, just like we you have to lean in to these uncomfortable things.
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>> That's a lot of what my writing is about is about the idea of leaning into moderately uncomfortable conversations for the good of the long term.
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relationship because you know it's it's so easy to want to have your dayto-day go smooth in your relationship that you start telling each other what the other person wants to hear and not you know sharing what's really going on in your head and in your heart.
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But I think what if what we really want is long-term deep connection with another person, we can't do that.
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We have to be disciplined.
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We have to say, "Okay, I'm I'm going to be radically candid with this person about what's going on."
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>> I think a lot of what we've touched on so far is this really root emotion of like what's really happening beneath the surface.
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>> And I wonder not what are the top three reasons people get divorced that they say in the courtroom >> or that they may say the first time they meet you or to their therapist.
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>> What are the three root top three root reasons that you have discovered that lead to someone getting divorced? >> Yeah.
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The most common question anyone who finds out what I do for a living ask me other than, "Oh my god, you must have some great stories."
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And and usually they're very pleased because I'll tell them one of the more outrageous ones like, "Oh," and then he cut the car in half with a chainsaw and said, "Okay, you pick which half you want."
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You know, things like True Story. >> That's crazy. >> True story. Yeah. >> Okay.
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You have to tell >> Oh, yeah.
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I have some I have some real bangers.
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>> You have to tell us some new ones later. >> Yeah.
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You know, I have a lot of fun at a cocktail party because I have a lot of those.
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But really what what people are, you know, asking I think they want me to say, "Oh, uh, cheating." >> Mhm.
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>> Or financial impropriy because that gives us a sense of control. >> Okay.
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I can monitor my client, my my uh client comes out of me, but I can monitor my spouse or partner's whereabouts using my phone and I can uh you know be vigilant about you know like keeping an eye on what's going on with them and other people and it gives us a sense of control, right? >> Yeah.
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>> Okay, I'm worried you know financial impropriety is a huge piece of a lot of divorces but you know okay I can try to monitor finances and stay actively involved in it so we never have that happen.
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But really underneath those things is what you know those are the symptoms not the underlying illness.
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And I think the underlying illness it's it's maddening for people to hear but I think it's disconnection.
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I think the number one marriage killer is disconnection.
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I think we fall in love incredibly fast and we fall out of love and we fall into those big marriage killers much more slowly or or really kind of the way that people go bankrupt very slowly and then all at once, >> you know, and and by the time you've gone over that cliff, I actually think it it may be too late to do something about it, which is why I'm very big on the idea of like preventative maintenance and not getting to that place.
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>> But I think disconnection from your partner, from yourself, from your true self.
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You know, I think I've been representing people in court for 25 years in divorces.
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And I think the most dangerous lies we tell are the ones we tell oursel about what's making us happy, what's not, what's important to us and what isn't, how we've changed >> and how we've stayed the same, how our partner has changed and how we feel about it.
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We lie to ourselves about those things so that we can sort of navigate a comfortable day-to-day reality.
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But long term, I think that is a very very dangerous thing.
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So I would say disconnection from yourself and from your partner.
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I would also say that the biggest marriage killer is is we stop seeing our partner and we stop making them feel seen because I think we become blind to the things we see most often.
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You know, whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish.
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You know, like I have a couch that I've had for I think probably 20 years.
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I couldn't tell you what color it is because I sit on it every day at some point, but I've just become blind to it because it's just there. It's the couch. It's always there.
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You know, if I got a new one, then I would probably be very mindful of it.
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But I think it's the same thing in a long-term relationship.
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There's a temptation to say, "Oh, I I found it. I found this person. We did the thing. We're wearing the rings.
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We connected to each other. We're good."
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Like, I don't have to worry about that anymore.
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anymore. I can worry about all the thousand other natural shocks the flesh is there to you know and in fact like this this thing this connection is so important that you know when you when you think about when you're dating someone
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you feel interested and you feel interesting >> and those are both equally intoxicating >> you know like it's it's lovely to sort of dive into someone like this is our first conversation It's exciting for us like we're kind of a mystery to each
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other and you know we know a little about each other enough that we're interested >> but we want to know more you know >> and when you feel interesting like it's lovely it's lovely to have someone say like oh and then what did you do and
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where did you grow up and you know like it it makes you feel sort of oh yeah I guess I I joke because every summer we have law student interns who come to the firm for a couple months and share their talents with us >> and it. I always I always feel so proud
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I always I always feel so proud to be a lawyer when they're around because it's something they aspire to so much.
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And you know, it's been my day job for so long that I sometimes forget like, oh, oh yeah.
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Like there was a time where the only thing in the world I wanted was like everything I did was I want to be able to someday walk into a courtroom and say James J.
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Saxon for the plaintiff, you know? And and yet I do it.
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I've done it so many thousands of times that it's really easy to forget that what a privilege that is, what a goal it was, and I I achieved it.
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And when you're around people that are chasing that same dream, you say, "Oh, yeah, like I forgot."
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And I think it's the same phenomenon in marriage.
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Like there was a time where all of us went, I just I just want to find someone.
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Like I want to find my someone.
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I want to find someone who loves me and sees me and I'll love them and and they'll receive my love and then you have it and you just kind of okay I got that now and I'll move on to other things.
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I'll move on to other things. And so I think when when you feel, you know, there's I always say about New York City that there's a kind of loneliness in New York City that I I don't see in a lot of other cities because you're so surrounded by people and yet you feel
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very alone sometimes because everyone's sort of, >> you know, in their lane and, you know, it's a city where, you know, someone can just fall down in front of you and people just keep moving, you know, and >> it's so odd to be surround like when you're home by yourself. If you feel lonely, it it seems
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If you feel lonely, it it seems situationally appropriate. >> Mhm.
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>> But if you're sitting in a room with hundreds of people and feel incredibly lonely, that's a very different kind of loneliness.
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I think when you are with the person who's supposed to be your deepest connection and you feel lonely >> and alone, that's a very unique brand of misery.
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So, I think a lot of that comes from not feeling seen anymore.
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And I I think that's something that kills marriages in a real way. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I like those two.
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And I and I appreciate those answers so much more than the surface answers of And we will talk about cheating and we will talk about money at some point, but >> I much prefer the disconnection and the lack of being seen as points of contention because I think you're spot on because when you didn't wash the dishes, someone felt like you didn't see them. >> Right.
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When you forgot to pick up something on the way back from home, they felt you were disconnected.
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When you sat on the couch both watching the same show, but never looking at each other, >> you felt unseen.
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Like that that's what you felt.
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That's that's what was going on.
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>> And that phenomenon, that reality, >> I think actually can be flipped in the other direction to our benefit. Yeah.
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>> Because you know, you've been married I don't want to put you on the spot, but you've been married nine years.
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I'm willing to bet that if your wife was here and I said to her, "When do you feel most loved by Jay?"
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Like, "Tell me some moments.
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Tell me some things he does that makes you feel loved." >> Mhm.
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>> I bet there's some answers you would know, like he listens to me when he cares for our family member, whatever. >> Mhm.
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>> But I bet there'd be some that you go, "Really? That >> like that?
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That little thing like that?
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that to me is such a um a beautiful expression of like what a mystery it is, you know, but but there is something about these little gestures like you gave the example of like the dishes in the sink and and it is that's like a death by a thousand paper cuts.
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It's this little thing that's like, yeah, I don't I don't care enough about you to do this and I don't value your time enough.
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Like it can feel that way.
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But also the act of like doing the dishes without being asked to do that is such a the opposite.
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It's such a sense of like, oh no, I did this cuz I love you.
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Like I did this cuz I don't want you to have to do it.
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Like and >> there are so many little things when you're in love and and when you feel loved that I I bet your spouse like they're >> I can think of one right now.
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>> I can think of one right now.
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My wife told me before so you know and I'm pretty sure everyone goes through this.
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So, my wife gets into bed before me, maybe by a couple of minutes, she's brushed her teeth, she's done everything. She's going to bed.
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I'm I'm getting I'm just about to get in bed and she's like, "Can you get me some water?" And it's like that.
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So, if I if I snap and I go, "No, get it yourself."
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Like, "I'm getting into bed, too." >> Right. Right.
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Or or if you get the water >> Yeah. >> before she even asks. >> Yes.
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>> And you say, >> "Before you asked, I knew you'd want a little >> like that's such a feeling of >> Yeah. >> Oh.
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like you didn't, you know, or even if you just get the water and put it on the nightstand and don't look for credit. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And you just do it.
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And you know, I had a client, >> I talk about it in the book who I was talking to her after we'd been many miles together.
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It was a very ugly divorce.
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And we were sitting outside of the the courtroom and I said to her, because we'd been some miles, so you start having more casual conversations.
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And I said, "You know, was there a moment that you knew the marriage was over?"
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And she said, "Yeah, I remember it."
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And I said, "What was it?"
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And she said, "There was this granola that I really like."
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And I used to have it for breakfast.
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I'd put it on my yogurt and I would have that every day.
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And they only sold it at this one store.
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And my husband used to always get it for me.
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And whenever like the bag was running out magically like a new bag would be there.
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She's like and it always made me feel loved.
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It always made me feel like oh like look like he and he wouldn't even say like oh I got you your granola.
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Like what we're prone to do as men you know we're like I opened that jar. We love that.
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But he didn't even look for credit.
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He just would do it and it was and she said like it just always made me feel so like he sees me. He knows what I need.
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He tries to get ahead of it.
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She said, "And one day the granola ran out."
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And I thought, "Oh, that's strange."
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And she's like, "I I didn't get my own."
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Because I thought, "Oh, no, no, maybe he's just didn't notice, you know."
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And a couple more days went by and Granola never got replaced.
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And she said, and I thought, "Oh, okay. This is over."
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Like, it's starting to move in the wrong direction.
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And I just remember thinking like what a what a powerful moment, but what a very relatable one.
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You know, the funny PS to that story is I said to her, "Was there anything like that that you did for him?" >> Yeah.
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>> And without hesitation, she said, "Yeah, blowjobs."
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And I spit out my coffee.
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like I I literally spit coffee across the the court courthouse hallway.
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And I I said, "Uh uh really?" She said, "Yeah."
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She said, "You know, when we were like dating and first married, like it was just something I did a lot.
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Like it was, you know, it didn't take terribly long and always put him in a great mood for the day and you know, he would like text me later and be like, "Oh my god, this morning was so fun."
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And she goes, "And then for some reason, like, you know, once the kids came and stuff, we didn't have as much time alone together."
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and she said I didn't really have much occasion and so I would say like oh well we'll wait till tonight and then we can both you know we'll have sex and we'll both enjoy it.
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She's like but now I think about it and I think like oh yeah like that was probably like the equivalent of granola.
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Now I'm not saying these are the same.
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I I I think they're quite different.
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But but whatever it is like whatever that little thing is, not that that's little, but whatever it is that that your partner does for you, whatever kindness they show you, selfless kindness that they show you, whatever gesture of warmth and and love and and prioritizing your joy and pleasure that that's so important and it's so easy to lose it.
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It's so easy to just not even know that you lost it. >> Yeah.
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And and I think it's so important that there's recognition, gratitude, and >> reciprocity for it because I think often >> when someone's doing something for a long time, it's like the couch. >> Yeah.
29:05
>> You stop thanking them. You stop noticing it. You stop honoring it.
29:07
And that that part is equally as important because >> that person at one point will feel underappreciated.
29:14
And these are such >> they're simple.
29:18
>> These are such simple things. Like it's so easy.
29:21
>> But it is that it is so easy.
29:23
>> It's not the birthday or the wedding ann.
29:25
And that's what we put so much on is these giant gestures.
29:27
And but the truth is like if you texted your wife right now and just said, "I married the prettiest girl in the world."
29:36
>> Like who what does that take? What does it take?
29:40
>> My wife would send me a picture of her making a funny face. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got a good one.
29:45
you know, like that's lovely.
29:45
Like, but >> but I I bet it wouldn't be something that's uncommon for you to say.
29:49
I I think if you say all the time, yeah, I think that that >> what does it cost?
29:56
>> What does it cost to just take a moment and say, you know, I'm so glad I'm so glad I have you.
30:01
I'm so glad you chose me. Like, what does it take?
30:03
It's such a low percentage move.
30:06
And if that's the secret, like if that's the thing that keeps that connection wired, >> like what if it's not these giant things?
30:17
What if it's not we have to go on vacations at this routine?
30:19
We have to have a date night and it has to be very formal.
30:23
What if it's just these little gestures? Yeah.
30:28
>> That at the beginning of a relationship, >> you feel them in your toes.
30:30
I mean, you know, you you just the feeling of intoxication when someone sees you and admires you.
30:41
Like, it's such a beautiful feeling.
30:41
Why would you not just try to maintain that?
30:46
And what do you have to lose?
30:46
Like, if you if you did that, the worst thing that could happen is they don't really notice. >> Totally.
30:53
>> And and and that's okay.
30:53
You're not much poorer for that.
30:57
>> You know, it's a low investment.
30:57
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32:06
So much of this is based on at least so much of what we grew up on.
32:12
Like for me, for example, my mom, incredible woman, breadwinner of the family, cooked a fresh breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day, dropped us to school, helped us with our homework, everything.
32:25
Everything that's good about me is to do with my mom. >> Yeah.
32:28
>> And but when your mom does it, you assume that's just what life is. >> Sure.
32:35
And so when I married my wife and my wife also loves cooking and it's part of her love language, but to me getting a hot meal was normality. >> Yeah.
32:47
>> And so even though my wife showed it as a way of showing love because I had it from my mom as like a base level expectation.
32:54
>> Oh, you're the fish in the water. >> You just not know. Yeah. You just don't see it.
32:57
>> And it took me a moment when I would actually watch my wife cook.
33:00
And then not only did my appreciation for my wife change, my appreciation for my mother change.
33:04
realizing what it took to do that for all those years.
33:07
But it's almost like >> and what a gift that is. >> What a gift.
33:11
>> What a gift that loving your >> loving your wife helped you love your mother in a different way. Like that.
33:17
That's what I mean when I say like this transformative power of love is that you know I I remember when my sons were first born, my admiration for my then wife was so like because she wasn't just this woman I had dated in college or this woman I had married.
33:34
She was a But you're like a mom, you know, like and you love this little organism the same amount that I do and like so you do like have so many occasions. >> Yeah.
33:44
>> To deepen your connection to this other person which deepens your connection to to these other people, you know, in your life.
33:50
And but I yeah I think that that we we certainly and you know I I have to say when you were talking about you know growing up in a home where mom you know made these lovely meals and then to be married to a woman who does the same and so to you this is sort of you know normal >> you can take it for granted >> right you can easily take it for granted but it that's also very often how people end up in very um negative relationships.
34:17
So if you grew up in a home where your mother or your father or both had substance use disorder, you you think, "Oh, this is how a man is.
34:26
Men drink, you know, so you're much more prone to marrying someone who also has substance use disorder."
34:32
And looking at it and saying, "Oh, well, no, that's just what men do." I I have Wow.
34:36
Yeah, >> I have represented victims of domestic violence and intimate partner abuse for 25 years and I've represented perpetrators of domestic violence.
34:46
And I'm not excusing anyone's abuse of anyone else.
34:51
But 99% of the time in my experience, they grew up in a house where there was abuse.
35:00
They grew up in a house where violence and intimate partner abuse was how you treat someone or how you treated by someone and they they just don't see how toxic of an environment this is.
35:12
So sometimes what you just described as a a a way to deepen connection and love to yourself, you know, to your partner to and to your, you know, your your your mom.
35:23
It's also that same phenomenon, that same cognitive habit that can create in us like we may be repeating the patterns that we watched the people around us like mothers and fathers and grandparents, the way they communicated with their spouse.
35:39
We there's no class in love.
35:42
in love. like there's no you know I I can tell you with certainty I've used algebra very few times in my life you know I I have had almost no use for so much of like dividing fractions that was taught to me but but there was never a
36:00
class about how to love how to be loved how to be in a deeply connected relationship with another human being so you really just learn on the job you know and you learn by watching the people around you And if you have people around you that do it well, it's an incredible blessing. You know, this is a
36:16
You know, this is a gift we can give to the world is to to demonstrate how to love and be loved.
36:23
Like I I often talk about, you know, in the sort of masculinity crisis that there's been a lot of discussion about how, you know, there are there are not as many role models for men, >> young men who want to look at what what should a strong, capable man look like?
36:42
What does, you know, we talk a lot about toxic masculinity, but what does non-toxic masculinity look like? I'm interested in that.
36:48
Like, what what does it what is the the the positive masculine?
36:54
And I found myself thinking about most of my examples of it came from literature or film, you know, like characters who were strong, protective men, self-sacrificing, putting themselves, you know, below in terms of importance, the people who they were there to protect or love.
37:11
And so I I think we have we need each other so much as a a core unit, a family, a society, and then just as a world like we we need to >> to be able to look to examples of how to love and how to receive love.
37:29
And we we don't >> there there is a I think a tremendous um absence a drought of that. Yeah.
37:36
You know, I I know a lot of unhappily married people and not just as a function of my professional life. I I know >> Oh, me too.
37:47
>> of my friends who are married, I can really only think of a handful who I look at them and go, "Oh, yeah, that's good."
37:56
Yeah, >> that's really good.
37:56
And they're really glad they're in it.
38:00
>> But man, when you're around it, >> like it's it's like the warmth of the sun.
38:04
Like it's such a beautiful thing to see that in practice and we need to find ways I think for for young people >> or even newly connected people like people who are thinking about marriage >> to be in the orbit of that. >> Yeah.
38:22
>> You know to learn from it because we just can't we don't teach it.
38:24
We can't I don't know that we could necessarily teach it in a textbook.
38:27
You know you can read all the books you want about swimming but you learn in the pool. >> Yeah.
38:32
you know, and I I think we're, you know, we we break in relationship and we heal in relationship.
38:37
I think it's the only way. >> Yeah.
38:40
I mean, talking about the masculinity piece, I was reading that the two times men are most likely to cheat are when their partner's pregnant >> and when the first child is born or when a child is young. >> Makes sense to me.
38:56
That's consistent with my observation, too.
38:58
I I have something of a PhD in infidelity having been a divorce lawyer so long and I've seen it from both sides >> and I'd love to talk about why but I think the >> I have a theory. >> Yeah.
39:09
The fascinating part to me is that I spoke to a lot of men as well friends who who haven't cheated but they talked about how when they had their first child just how hard it was to be second priority to their partner. >> Yeah.
39:24
And when we talk about we can't teach a class, to me it sounds predictable and something you can prepare for because no wonder you're going to be second priority because there's this helpless little baby that demands attention >> and you actually want that baby to have that priority.
39:42
>> So then you start feeling >> guilty about why do I want this and why do I feel that way?
39:49
>> But but see I you know again I think it's a perfectly understandable feeling.
39:54
Yeah, it's an understandable >> like you and it can be articulated to your partner in a way that doesn't create a defensive reaction I think because you want your partner to love that child that much and you love that child that much but yet there is something about like losing a
40:11
little of your love and attention that is hard for me >> and what a lovely thing for someone to say like if it's said the right way if it's said like well I'm feeling neglected of course the response would be well what do you want me to do like I got two hands. There's only so many
40:24
There's only so many hours of the day. I'm sleepd deprived.
40:27
My body is a train wreck right now.
40:27
Like what do you And now I got to worry about you.
40:31
>> And that's the script.
40:31
That's exactly an understandable script.
40:33
Like I I get that frustration how a woman would feel in that situation.
40:39
>> And yet perhaps if it was parsed differently, you know, the feeling of like I admire so much what you're doing.
40:47
like I I'm falling in love with you all over again, watching you spin these plates that are so important to both of us and giving our child this gift that only you can give.
40:59
And yet I have to say, and maybe I'm selfish and maybe I'm foolish and maybe I'm a child myself, like I just I miss something about the the warmth of you.
41:11
And I hope we can find a way, you know, to take time to like see each other and connect to each other.
41:18
other and connect to each other. It it's so interesting how if you just and maybe it's because I my job is to sort of parse argument, you know, that maybe it may be uniquely qualified for this, but I I find myself thinking that that
41:32
almost any of these sentiments, there's a way to parse it >> that I think it can actually deepen connection and it doesn't bring a defensive response because >> if you say, you know, well, we haven't had sex lat like we're we're having so much less sex than we used to. like what
41:47
like what what's going on?
41:48
what's going on? Immediately your partner's response is going to be well what you know you've been working all the time and you know when you come home you're tired and I don't know that you want to you want me to initiate like what am I supposed to and now we're just having this thing whereas if you just said you know oh like I miss like
42:05
feeling connected to you you know like I I love like the the smell of you and I love the feeling of your warmth like and I God we have to like I have to really make time if I haven't made time for that like I really have to I really want to what partner wouldn't hear that and go, "Oh, well, yeah, that's important to me, too." And let's, you know, like,
42:24
And let's, you know, like, "Yeah, let's make a point of doing that."
42:27
Like, I I really don't think this has to be.
42:29
But again, perhaps it's a function of the times we're living in.
42:35
We're so hyperartisan all the time and we're so on the defensive all the time from everything and everyone, you know, that perhaps we're just not approaching those interactions the right way.
42:44
And I'd like I'd like to think that those same phenomenon can be spun in a direction that can reverse that. >> Yeah.
42:55
It's almost like we only know how to share our emotions through a negative lens, >> right? >> I. e.
43:02
, we're not doing this enough. >> We used to do this. Where's this gone?
43:07
>> And all that language is looking at the gap, the scarcity, the missed opportunity.
43:12
Whereas what you just said was, "Hey, I'd love to connect again."
43:16
Or, "Hey, I'd love to, you know, make some time for this again." >> Yeah.
43:19
And remember when we like, "Wasn't that so God, I was thinking about it the other day, you know, that we went for that walk and how nice it was." >> Yeah.
43:27
It's a positive thing to move towards, >> right?
43:29
And now we're there again.
43:29
You know, it's I've always one of my favorite phenomenon is, you know, we've all been to like a dinner where there's a couple of couples and one of them you're just like, man, there was some kind of fight on the way here.
43:39
like they just got that there's this energy between them of like you know tur you know and you're like I hope they're not like this all the time but it might have just been on the ride over >> and if I found as an experiment is if you say to that couple so how did the two of you meet? >> Yeah.
43:54
There's a softening that happens very quickly because all of a sudden they're in telling the story they're transported back to oh well I was here and she was in the dorm and we met and we were on there and they're remembering >> you know they're remembering viscerally you know that connection and I think if we use that in our current relationships to instead of saying hey we're not like you said focusing on the gap >> Yeah.
44:21
instead bringing us back to you remember when we did this was God that was so fun. I remember that so much.
44:28
Or I stumbled on this picture on my phone, you know, Apple just suggested this one for me. Look, remember that?
44:37
>> You know, and you go, yeah, we should, you know, we we have to make time to do that again. >> Yeah.
44:41
>> Who wouldn't who wouldn't go, oh yeah, that was really nice.
44:44
You know, and then even if there is some resistance, even if the person says, "Well, we can't really afford to go there again right now."
44:51
Or, "Oh, you know, it's everything going on at work right now is such a bad time."
44:54
There's at least this shared intention, shared experience of going back to that.
45:00
I mean, why are we as a species take a million pictures on our phones >> because we want to like hold on to it, >> you know? I I I went to a concert.
45:09
I I I I tend to not go out a lot at night because I get up so early, but I went to a concert recently and it was my first time being at a concert in many years and everyone had their phones, you know, they're recording, you know, whatever song, you know, and I found myself thinking like, do you think that that little box is going to capture this >> this giant room we're all in and the vibration of this music?
45:35
It was a 9inch nails concert, so it was like really heavy and and I I just thought like, oh, you're you're missing the whole thing.
45:44
>> You're missing the whole thing because you're trying to hold on to something that you won't be able to hold on to.
45:50
This will be a poor poor copy >> of something.
45:54
So maybe just, you know, again, that human desire to capture it so you can have some small taste of it again in the future.
46:05
Maybe there's a way that that can be used to like reconnect us to who we were, what we felt. Yeah.
46:13
>> And maybe bring it back to the present. >> Yeah, absolutely.
46:15
There's it's such a part of that passing of an argument as you talk about it and part of the ability to initiate.
46:26
I feel like at the root of it, there's a struggle that we have with our ego where it feels like we don't want to be the one to look like the beggar or look like the needy one or look like the weak one.
46:41
And so there's this ego >> the vulnerability >> the vulnerability. >> It's scary.
46:44
I I have to tell you, I struggle with that in >> every relationship.
46:47
M >> I I my longtime assistant Teresa has been with me a long time and she's wonderful wonderful assistant and uh she's really the brains of of my office.
46:58
You know, she keeps the machine running and I I actually have times where it's hard for me to say to her cuz I'm moving so fast between things like could you heat up my lunch for me?
47:11
Now she has offered this a million times like she's happy to be of assistance to me in any way.
47:16
assistance to me in any way. like she's a wonderful resource in that regard and she's a by nature that kind of person like I see it in her relationship with her husband and her kids like she just nothing makes her happier than feeding her family or feeding the people around
47:30
her and my everyone who calls my office is like oh my god Theresa is the best like they all love her um because there's a warmth and and I still have a hard time even with such permission I still have a hard time being vulnerable enough to say I need help >> because that's what I'm saying. Like
47:48
Like it's a minor thing I'm asking for help for, but I'm saying I need help and that's hard for me to hard for anyone to do to say I need help because there's a vulnerability.
47:58
there's this fear that what if the person goes well I don't have the time to do that right now and then that pain like that's such a child wound you know that feeling of like not wanting something and not getting it and asking for being brave enough to ask for it and not getting it that I I certainly understand that pain. >> Yeah. Yeah.
48:20
And it's one of those ones that you almost have to be willing to go to with the right partner. >> Yeah.
48:26
I feel like with the right partner, with the right person, you almost are willing to go there more often. >> Yeah.
48:33
>> Because you know they're not judging it like with someone like Theresa in the assistant capacity. >> Yeah.
48:37
But I think you you fix that >> by the step of trying because every time >> you are vulnerable in that way and the person shows up. >> Mhm.
48:49
that becomes a a less terrifying and a deeper intimacy, I think, like a deeper connection. Yeah.
48:56
>> And and so to give that example, >> when I've allowed myself to say like, "I'm sorry, I'm going a million miles an hour.
49:02
Is there any way you could just like heat up my lunch?"
49:03
And she goes, "Of course. Oh my god, of course."
49:05
And then she takes the extra step of like she puts it on like a nice little tray and she brings like a little drink along with it and like she puts little, you know, little chips next to it or something.
49:16
And and then I feel so loved.
49:21
>> Like legitimately loved.
49:21
I feel legitimately seen.
49:22
I feel like not only did you give me what I asked you for, but you gave me like more.
49:31
>> And and that is just one example of like a relationship that you know.
49:34
And of course then I feel that way now about her.
49:38
Like if she ever says like, "Oh, I need some time off for this."
49:40
I'm always, "Of course, of course."
49:41
Because she always shows up for me, I always try to show up for her.
49:46
I want to reciprocate that.
49:48
So I I think again, it's it's a muscle. >> Yeah.
49:52
>> That we have to exercise for it to get stronger and stronger and stronger.
49:54
But that's where in a long-term relationship where you've both been brave enough to do that and to show up for each other, that's where I think you have these people that have this like they're just thickest thieves, you know, they have this bond that's never ends up in my office. >> Yeah.
50:10
If if you were designing a contract for marriage, for modern love, what would you put in it? >> Oh, wow.
50:21
I'm a lawyer, so we tend to be verbose in our contracts, but I would I would put specific behaviors.
50:27
I would put I would put a mandatory weekly check-in. >> Mhm.
50:35
>> And I would even create a structure for it.
50:37
I would say that every week I I want to share with you and I want you to share with me something I did this week that made you feel loved. Mhm.
50:48
>> And I then I want you to share with me something that made you feel less loved or less seen or where I got it wrong.
50:57
Like I want you to tell me where I got it wrong bravely and then maybe praise sandwich.
51:07
Tell me something I can do for you this week that would make you feel loved.
51:12
that you think might make you feel loved or that might be because I want to be good at this job. >> Yeah.
51:18
>> Like I want to be good at this job and it's a job >> like loving another person is it's a it's a it's a career, you know, it's a vocation and >> I I think you have to be brave enough to talk about those things and I so I would put that in a contract.
51:33
I I think that's not a hard thing to do. I like that. I like that.
51:36
doesn't cost anything and I think that it it wouldn't take a lot of time necessarily and it would stave off a tremendous amount of things.
51:46
I would also commit to or pledge to to hear the things that we say to each other as coming from a place of love and connection.
52:00
you know, even when we say something the other person might not want to hear, that it's coming from a desire to protect the bond.
52:08
>> So, I would say that is a very worthwhile and worthy pursuit to say, look, we we've we've decided we want this particular permutation of relationship.
52:19
You know, love is is loaned.
52:22
It's not permanently gifted. >> Mhm.
52:27
And so if we want to protect and preserve it, I think saying to each other that we we have to have this unflinching ability to kind of hit send now, like say to the person like, "Hey, you know, this this thing's little and I never want it to get big."
52:42
But then you also have to be willing to hear that as coming from a place not of you're doing it wrong, >> but from a place of I want this to stay. Wonderful.
52:58
This is important to me, you know.
53:01
And I think if if those provisions could be complied with, I think that would be very helpful to people.
53:08
I also think again, you know, in romantic relationships and and you know, this is I think part of the reason why cheating becomes such an issue.
53:22
You know, sex is the glue. Like, it's the glue.
53:24
Like, sex is incredibly important to people.
53:26
Like, the I mean, it's the difference between having a roommate and having a spouse, you know?
53:33
Like, there's a there's a romantic element to it.
53:35
There's a sexual element to it.
53:37
There's a physical, not even purely sexual, there's a physical element to it.
53:41
I can't tell you how many men tell me, "Yeah, we stopped having sex or we started having it very infrequently."
53:50
Some women, but mostly men.
53:52
And I can't tell you how many women have said to me in the context of divorce that, "Yeah, like the only time he ever touched me was sex."
54:02
Like it was just prelude to sex.
54:04
The only time he ever kissed me was a prelude to sex. I mean, come on.
54:06
When you first start dating, you could make out for hours.
54:12
Like, literally, there's just nothing more lovely than just the kissing this person.
54:15
When's the last time people really made out with their spouse, you know, or just like held their hand or just touch the nearness of them?
54:22
Good relationships, there's a lot of that.
54:26
There's a lot of this physical connection.
54:28
And so again, I I don't think you have to write into the contract any particular frequency or specifics of what sex would need to look like, but I think you have to make somewhere in that contract, especially if I'm going to take a pledge that you're going to be my partner in this in this physical aspect of things.
54:54
If we're going to be monogamous, you know, I I used to say in in the context of dating that if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship >> because I enjoy solitude.
55:06
>> So, you have to be better than that. >> I like that.
55:09
>> And companionship is better than that.
55:10
So, if you're going to rob my solitude, you you owe me companionship.
55:12
If you want us to pledge to each other that we will be each other's sexual outlet, we will be each other's sexual connection.
55:23
We will be each other's intimate touch connection.
55:26
Again, by intimate touch, I don't even necessarily mean sex.
55:28
I I you know, there's an intimacy in holding someone's hand.
55:31
There's an intimacy in having your hand on their leg.
55:32
You know, anything you wouldn't do to a stranger on the subway, put it in that category. >> Yeah.
55:38
And I think that if if we're going to have rules in the relationship, which I think there are good reasons for, then we owe it to each other to see where that is.
55:49
Now, again, controlling for the possibility that that's okay if that shut, you know, shifts. I think it's okay. like it.
55:57
I don't think if you sustained the electricity of the initial physical bond people have like when you're first dating someone and your hand brushes theirs and you just like feel it in your toe.
56:09
Like if you if you did that for 9 years, man, you would never get anything done.
56:12
Like you just wouldn't like society would crumble because we'd all just be like, "Oh my god, she walked past me and I smelled her hair."
56:18
You know, like you just would have that intoxication all the time.
56:20
But let's not throw the baby out with a bath water.
56:25
like let's remember that there is some importance to this.
56:28
It's what makes that relationship a unique and special relationship.
56:33
And I think it's very easy for people to find surrogate activities, whether it's pornography, whether it's, you know, infidelity, whether that's with a person who's a sex worker, whether that's in the context of an affair, even whether that's in the context of an emotional affair >> versus a physical affair.
56:53
I think it's all about starting to say, "Okay, I'm not getting what I need in this relationship anymore, and it's going to be hard to have that conversation, so I'll just have this little thing instead."
57:07
You know, I can't have a meal right now, so I'll just have like a little snack bar. >> Yeah. Yeah.
57:10
But if that becomes the staple of your diet, you know, I see this a lot with men in pornography and I I I hear from a lot of my female clients that say like, "Yeah, he started like being much more into porn."
57:22
And and I I think that that is a surrogate activity for a very real need in all of us that for whatever reason is no longer being met because again, we're no longer the perfect thing.
57:36
We were like perfect is the enemy of good, you know.
57:38
And so I think we have to be conscious and communicative about when the physical aspects of our relationship are changing.
57:51
And again in a non defense invoking manner.
57:55
So you don't say, "Why don't you ever hold my hand anymore?"
57:59
Like the last thing I want to do is hold your hand. Yeah.
58:03
>> Whereas if you just grab my hand and just go like I just want to hold your hand for a minute.
58:07
>> Like who wouldn't go, "Oh, okay."
58:07
Like, "Yeah, that's nice." You know? >> Yeah.
58:11
And that's why you say that cheating is actually a symptom, not a a root.
58:16
You don't believe that it's the reason marriages end.
58:18
And you don't believe it's >> the root of the issue.
58:21
It's actually because there's a disconnection.
58:25
>> I'm I have a very high degree of confidence in that.
58:27
I think I spend a lot of time with the cheated and the cheated on, you know, or the cheater and the cheated on.
58:34
I I spend a lot of time with every permutation of infidelity.
58:39
And I've talked to people in very candid ways about their affairs, men and women.
58:46
And there's a there's a an emptiness and a sadness in people that have gone that route.
58:59
Sometimes it's surprising because they will say, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife."
59:08
Like this had to do with me like and how I felt like it wasn't her. She was love. I've always loved her. I still love her.
59:14
I just needed this, you know, and uh and they didn't really see like in that moment, they weren't thinking about their commitment.
59:23
They thought, well, this has nothing to do with that.
59:27
This is just like a human need like I'm hungry, so I'm going to eat.
59:29
And again, these are powerful forces in us, you know, the desire for sex, the desire for food, the desire for like these are basic core human things, you know.
59:38
basic core human things, you know. So I think infidelity is is something that is a function of disconnection and a function of how fraught the conversation is with your partner about desire and how it change I mean how much do we really understand our own desires you know it's it's there's something mysterious about it you know
1:00:06
like why do you like dark hair or blonde hair why do you like like why do any of us have these weird preferences, you know, like but they're there, you know, and maybe they're rooted in, you know, Freud is right, they're rooted in some, you know, very basic childhood things or, you know, maybe they're purely chemical, you know, it depends on who you ask. But but they're a mystery to
1:00:23
But but they're a mystery to us.
1:00:25
I mean, I I certainly know it's a mystery to me.
1:00:27
Like I don't like why are breasts so appealing?
1:00:30
Like they don't really do anything unless you're an infant, you know?
1:00:33
Like they're just and yet they just make me happy, you know? Like I don't know.
1:00:37
There's something in me that's like, oo, you know, like that finds those appealing. So, what is it? >> I have no idea.
1:00:43
You know, what is it that when I see a a a man who has, you know, stubble or a nice beard on his face, I don't feel any desire towards that?
1:00:52
And yet, many of my female friends or gay friends are like, "Oh, I love that's so sexy."
1:00:56
Like, >> what what is that? Well, it's just in us.
1:00:59
It's just part of us, you know?
1:00:59
So, >> I I think that's what makes it hard to articulate. Yeah.
1:01:04
you know, to our partner when when it's not being met.
1:01:09
Maybe we don't even realize cuz we're not looking at ourselves close enough. >> Yeah.
1:01:12
That's why I think the marriage contract that you just laid out >> is so important, >> right?
1:01:17
>> Because it's so and and also a big part of it is a lack of understanding of men and women.
1:01:22
Like when you said a few moments ago, you were just like, you know, people have desires. We have a desire to eat.
1:01:26
Like, you know, it's the same thing.
1:01:28
It's like as a man, that makes a lot of sense in our brain.
1:01:32
>> And the compartmentalization also makes a lot of sense.
1:01:34
Like >> like I've always said to when I'm talking to my uh friends who are girls who are having trouble in dating and I'll be like, "Yeah, he sees this as this and he sees this as that."
1:01:43
Like they're not connected, but >> I'm a man. That that makes sense.
1:01:46
And it's almost like we have such a limited understanding.
1:01:50
And I'm not saying it's only gender based, >> of course, >> but there's such a limited understanding >> of how the human brain and mind work because someone's saying, "Well, no, I put the commitment above my desire >> because the commitment is more important."
1:02:03
And the other person goes, "Well, yeah, I just let my desire slip above the commitment."
1:02:08
>> But you can have both. >> Yeah.
1:02:10
>> Like I genuinely believe you can have the desire and the commitment.
1:02:12
Like both can be fulfilled, you know, each other.
1:02:15
You mean >> I think so because I No, of course.
1:02:18
>> You know, there's a chapter in my book called Go Without or Go Elsewhere. >> Yeah.
1:02:21
And that essentially says that most people if they're unwilling to actively communicate with themselves and with their partner about what's going on with their desire sexually, then you have two choices and they both suck. >> Yeah.
1:02:34
>> Go without or go elsewhere.
1:02:34
Nobody wants to go without.
1:02:36
And going elsewhere is a very fraught terrain.
1:02:39
But it's not surprising to me that the conversation about this has become so challenging because we live in a society that rightfully made some big big changes in the last 50 years to what does it mean to be a man?
1:02:55
What does it mean to be a woman, right?
1:02:57
Like we that that is fraught to reign still, right?
1:03:00
I mean I growing up, you know, men in my generation, you know, you were either Richard Simmons or Clint Eastwood.
1:03:07
Those were your two choices.
1:03:09
like you either were, you know, very stoic and very or you were gay.
1:03:12
That was what the two choices were or you were a feat, you know.
1:03:17
And and now thankfully, one of the beautiful changes that I think has happened in society is we recognize that all of us have, if you want to call it, the masculine and the feminine in us.
1:03:27
We all have varying ratios of it.
1:03:28
And we've changed what it means to be a man and to be a woman.
1:03:31
But we've kind of treated dandruff with decapitation because we've said, "Hey, these these fixed models of what is a man and what is a woman and how do men behave and how do women behave and what is a man's natural tendency?
1:03:46
What is a woman's natural tendency?"
1:03:48
We realized those were prisons and those were creating unequal and unjust outcomes.
1:03:54
So I I applaud that we've taken this step to go, "All right, but not all men."
1:03:59
Okay, but not all women are that way.
1:04:01
but not all women are that way. M >> but we've gone so far in overcorrecting as we as a species are prone to doing that I think now we're not it's like scandalous to acknowledge what you just acknowledged which is when when I'm talking to a group of women who I'm
1:04:18
friends with and I say they're describing something that you know a man in their life did and I go oh I know exactly what that like no he saw this or oh no he thought that they go really like like I was speak Like I have a Rosetta Stone to a language they don't speak. And by the
1:04:35
And by the way, it goes the other way. >> Yes. 100%.
1:04:39
>> Like there are so many times I will listen.
1:04:40
listen. And I have an office full of women and sometimes of different generations and they'll be talking to each other and it's a small office so I can hear their conversation and sometimes I I feel like I'm like Margaret me observing like the Yanamomo,
1:04:55
you know, like I'm just like a cultural anthropologist who's been dropped into a different planet, you know, cuz they're talking about like I had one of them said something the other day about um she was describing a date she went out on. said, "Oh, he did that thing where
1:05:08
said, "Oh, he did that thing where like when I got up from the table, he kind of went to get up, but then didn't know if he should get up or not, you know, and the other young woman goes, "Oh, I love that."
1:05:20
>> You know, and I thought that is the weirdest.
1:05:22
And yet I I get it, you know, like because it it was like a vulnerability and also a sense of chivalry, but also a sense of like being self-conscious and >> and I thought like, God, if you said to a guy, you know, here's I'm going to be your new dating coach.
1:05:38
I'm going to be a new pickup artist guy, you know, like maybe this is my next career, you know, and and you point out these strange little things, you know, >> but to do that, we have to acknowledge that, you know, there are limits to our >> our understanding of the opposite sex and that there that there is some difference between us again hormonal, biological on a very basic level. >> Yeah.
1:06:06
>> And you know, I think even men men's experience of sex I observe as a man and as friends of many men it's like much more reductionist and simple like we're very like >> yeah basic >> you know it's like eating like it's like oh this is great yeah like unloaded the gun you know we're good >> whereas like women in my experience and
1:06:31
observation it's like well what feels good like one day a two days later doesn't feel as good and again some Some of that is probably hormones and some of that is >> but I think like learning to navigate a relationship perhaps same-sex marriages have less of a fraught relationship with that because you understand each other's perhaps biology in a different way. But
1:06:49
But I think opposite you know heterosexual relationships we are really trying to navigate a creature that has some distinct differences from us physically and hormonally.
1:07:00
And I think without good communication how are you supposed to learn that language? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:07:06
I find that don't you hear a lot I'm sure you hear this a lot as well where like >> after a while he just didn't want to communicate >> or like they just didn't want to communicate where like what you're suggesting >> is still part of a healthy relationship dynamic where you can initiate something and even if it's not met immediately there's a certain point at which there's a conversation >> but it wasn't on the first date. >> Yeah.
1:07:29
like it wasn't on the first date.
1:07:31
Like it's see that see that's the thing that I think makes marriage such an interesting entry point for a conversation about love >> cuz I don't know that the two correlate. >> Agreed. Yeah.
1:07:43
>> And I certainly don't think there's causation.
1:07:44
I don't think marriage makes you really love each other more deeply or more likely to be fidelities.
1:07:48
I don't think it does that at all. >> No.
1:07:51
>> It may have the opposite effect in some way.
1:07:53
But what it does give us is an entry point into we were at some point so enamored with each other that we said out of the 8 billion options I'm picking you.
1:08:12
I mean that is a gigantic like I live in New York City there's a lot of restaurants.
1:08:17
Sometimes I am paralyzed by the number of choices.
1:08:20
When I go, "Okay, I'm going to order something."
1:08:22
There's so many options all within three blocks of my apartment. 8 billion options.
1:08:32
And you chose this person and they chose you.
1:08:34
So, at some point, there is this abundance of goodwill, this abundance of connection.
1:08:40
And when I wrote the book, it really wasn't meant for people who were in crisis.
1:08:48
It was really meant for people who were not. >> Yeah.
1:08:50
>> It was meant to be a wedding gift.
1:08:53
>> It was meant to be something you give to an engaged couple to say it's like you just got the new car.
1:08:58
Here's how you maintain it >> so that it stays because this is a car you're going to drive for the rest of your life.
1:09:08
>> So, don't you want to take care of it?
1:09:09
If I said to you, you're going to have one car for the rest of your life, you would change the oil. You would check the T.
1:09:14
you would do routine preventative maintenance cuz this is the only car I'm ever going to have and if it starts to fall apart, it's the only car I have and I don't want to walk everywhere.
1:09:22
So, I I am going to take very good care of this.
1:09:27
And so, I think leveraging like when you say people say, and I hear it all the time, you're absolutely correct.
1:09:34
Like, hey, just stop talking to me.
1:09:36
Is that a function of the fact that the way we were communicating wasn't productive?
1:09:41
It made this person feel defensive?
1:09:43
that made them shut down like because at some point you were still connecting >> and it's so so there was a there was a story you were writing and you lost the plot and that's okay.
1:09:54
Like I love to read and I read at night.
1:09:57
It's sort of like my brain's signal to go to sleep.
1:10:02
And I have to tell you so many times I'm reading and I'm tired and I'm in bed >> and I realize I don't remember what the last several paragraphs were.
1:10:11
So, I have to sort of stop and go, okay, let me go back.
1:10:16
Let me go back to where I lost the plot. >> Mhm.
1:10:20
>> That's what I would say is that if you're at a place in your relationship where unfortunately one or both of you are not communicating anymore, I don't think the answer is keep going in that direction.
1:10:33
I think the answer is where did we lose the plot?
1:10:35
And then I think there are some ways to try to correct back to it.
1:10:40
You won't be surprised to hear that when people tell you the story of their life, they're usually the hero. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:10:47
>> And so when when people come into my office and they tell me the story of their marriage >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:10:53
It's always, >> you know, David Burn in the Talking Heads said, um, facts all come with points of view and facts don't do what I want them to. >> Yeah.
1:11:00
>> And I think that my my career has been a a real example of that. Totally true.
1:11:05
because you you do it's actually how I know I'm probably going to get along with a client is if when they tell the story of their marriage >> they they're neither the hero nor the villain. >> Yes. Yes.
1:11:18
>> You know, like if I said to you, "Tell me about your marriage." >> Yeah.
1:11:22
>> And you said, you know, here's the things I think I do right. >> Yeah.
1:11:26
>> And here's the things I could get better at. >> Yeah.
1:11:28
>> And here's the things I'm abysmally bad at and I'd like to get better. We're in a good place. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
1:11:35
>> We're in a good place.
1:11:36
>> But that's not happening when you go to get a divorce. That's the point.
1:11:37
It's like >> when you go to get a divorce, it's usually >> I've got a halo. They've got horns. >> Of course.
1:11:45
>> Let's get after it, you know. >> Yeah. Of course.
1:11:46
Cuz you want to get someone on side. >> And then you Yeah.
1:11:49
>> And then you Yeah. I have similar in I mean I coach people and couples and work with people and like you said people people lie to their kind of therapist coaches in that lane and that's for sure cuz >> someone will come to me and said they have their heart broken and then as time goes on they'll send me emails that the
1:12:06
other person sent them and the emails actually seem really thoughtful and comprehensive and >> like very >> uh emotionally intelligent and articulate and you're like wait a minute like what happened >> you told me that this person was devil >> and now I'm reading their emails cuz you had to share them with me because of some context. >> That's why I said I think the most
1:12:25
>> That's why I said I think the most dangerous lies are the ones you tell yourself. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:12:28
You know, >> and you need them for survival.
1:12:30
>> You don't even know sometimes you don't even know that you're lying.
1:12:31
Like you just, you know, you're just so caught in your view of the thing and we hold on to that so tight, you know, like cuz it >> again I feel like if if if we can acknowledge that we're a mystery to oursel, you know, that that that feels powerless and frightening.
1:12:46
I mean, so much of what we do wrong, we do for a feeling of control that we don't actually have. >> Yes. Yes.
1:12:53
>> I think that might be the secret is to like learn how to find, you know, there's a there's a axiom um that if you don't learn how to find joy in the snow, you'll have less joy in your life and precisely the same amount of snow. >> Yeah.
1:13:08
Like so I I feel like if you don't learn how to find joy and peace in chaos, you will have less joy and peace and precisely the same amount of chaos.
1:13:18
So cuz chaos is the lack of control, you know.
1:13:23
So I think that's a big piece. >> Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah.
1:13:25
I I learned a lot of similar lessons in the monastery when Eric I'm I'm totally digressing but >> we uh we're on this two to three day train journey in India from north to south 48 hours roughly >> with a bunch of stops.
1:13:40
It's a long journey and the toilets are are so dirty in India.
1:13:44
I don't know if you ever been.
1:13:46
It's like the toilet on a public train in India >> is like walking into a sewage system.
1:13:51
>> And so I decided I'm going to fast for 3 days.
1:13:53
like I'm not going to eat because I can't >> I don't want to use the bus.
1:13:56
>> I don't want to be in that position. Yeah.
1:13:57
>> And so and I'm getting off at the stops to meditate because the train a public train in coach is like >> Yeah. Your bodies, right?
1:14:05
>> There's like no like and I've >> we've got I'm meant to have a bunk, but I have my seat because everyone's sitting next to me.
1:14:11
There's people sitting on the floor lying down on the floor. They've got their cycle. They've got their tires. They've got everything.
1:14:18
>> So I get off at the stops to meditate.
1:14:20
And then my my teacher goes to me afterward.
1:14:21
He goes, "What are you up And I go, "My monk teacher," and I go, "What?"
1:14:23
He goes, "What are you doing?"
1:14:24
And I go, "Oh, well, like I'm getting off, finding a quiet spot, meditating, cuz this because it's a long hall and it's like 10, 20 minutes, and then I jump back on the train when I hear the we hear the, you know, the train's about to take off."
1:14:34
And he goes, "Do you think life's going to be like the chaotic train >> or do you think it's going to be like the peaceful stop, right?"
1:14:41
>> And I was like, "Oh, I get it."
1:14:41
And he was just like, "Learn to meditate on the train." >> The teacher. >> Yeah. And it's your point.
1:14:45
It's It's the same like learn to meditate on the train.
1:14:48
But I think there's value also like in the context of what we're talking about because >> it's very funny to me when people say, you know, um, we've been having some rough patches in our marriage, so we're going to go on vacation together.
1:15:02
>> And I think there's value in that because we're going to give each other our undivided attention. >> Yeah.
1:15:06
But I don't think it's like why the those TV shows like The Bachelor and things like that.
1:15:10
Like it's not hard to feel in love with someone when you're on a beautiful idyllic setting and you have nothing to do all day except sort of love on each other >> like with with in bikinis and shorts like like the hard part is in the midst of all of the dayto-day.
1:15:27
>> How do we maintain connection?
1:15:27
Like how do we find peace in the storm?
1:15:30
Because life is constantly going to be the packed train and the storm and the chaos.
1:15:37
So how do we maintain that depth of connection?
1:15:40
Because by the way that's when we need it like when you need serenity that comes from meditation >> is not when you're sitting by the idyllic beautiful stream in the peace and quiet.
1:15:52
You that is by definition going to be a peaceful serene moment.
1:15:56
Like you need to find that in the chaos of the dayto-day and you need to find it on the packed train.
1:16:00
So yeah, I mean, how do you learn to do it except to do it? >> Yeah, absolutely.
1:16:06
>> Should should everyone get a prenup? >> Yes.
1:16:09
>> Well, I'll actually take a different approach to that. Everyone has a prenup. >> You have a prenup. Everyone has a prenup.
1:16:16
>> It's either one that's written by the government >> or it's one that's written by you and the person who you allege you love more than the other 8 billion other options.
1:16:25
But every Cuz what is a prenup?
1:16:25
Prenup is a contract where two people agree to specific rules that will apply to their marriage if it ends in something other than death.
1:16:37
>> It's a weird way to parse it, but it's completely 100% accurate.
1:16:39
So, all marriages end death or divorce.
1:16:42
You hope yours ends in death.
1:16:44
That's a weird thing to say, but it is.
1:16:46
You hope it ends in death till death to his part.
1:16:50
But if it doesn't, there's a rule set that will apply.
1:16:53
who should write that rule set.
1:16:55
Whether you're on the left or the right or the unhappy middle right now, we can all agree that the government there's some issues.
1:17:04
Whatever government we're talking about, like every every country, everyone goes, there's some things I don't anyone who's ever been to the DMV, I've never walked into the DMV and thought, "These people should be in charge of everything. This is great.
1:17:19
This is the best and brightest minds working in the most efficient manner possible.
1:17:23
I should let them make the rules that govern my marriage.
1:17:25
So if you don't have a prenup, what you're saying is I trust the government present and future, a government I haven't even seen yet.
1:17:37
Because instead of writing this contract with my partner and amending it from time to time if we'd like, changing it as our circumstances change, I'm going to trust that the rule set that will be in effect at a time in the future uncertain that that will be a rule set that is best for me. >> That's crazy. That's absolutely.
1:18:01
There is nothing about that that is rational at all.
1:18:06
What you're simply saying is, I don't want to have this conversation right now.
1:18:10
I'll just whatever whatever they're serving at the restaurant, I'll eat.
1:18:13
And I think that that's very short-sighted, but it's a function of the fact that we've been taught to view prenups a certain way.
1:18:21
And that is that you have a lack of confidence in the staying power of this relationship.
1:18:25
I I think that's changing and I'm grateful for that.
1:18:29
Not just from a professional standpoint, because there's never been a divorce lawyer that made very much money on prenups.
1:18:35
It's just not a high profit.
1:18:35
Litigation, there's much more money in helping people tear each other to shreds in a courtroom than there ever was in mediation or in prenuptual agreements.
1:18:45
Prenuptual agreements, if anything, are bad for divorce lawyers because they simplify the uncoupling if it happens because you have a rule set.
1:18:53
>> Yeah, that makes sense.
1:18:54
>> But, but I always I think we need we are seeing I think some changes in the way we're normalizing prenups as a society and I think that's really really healthy.
1:19:03
Well, I think it's even in the way you just spoke about it because I think when you realize, oh, you have one anyway and and when that kind of locks in, you go, "Oh, yeah.
1:19:10
We" Because you know, that's the fascinating thing about marriage is that you don't even >> it's been so normalized >> that you don't even realize that you're getting into a contract with the state and with each other.
1:19:20
>> The most legally significant thing you will do in your life other than dying.
1:19:25
>> Seriously, like you buy an apartment, there's lead paint disclosures, a HUD one, there's a million forms that disclose information.
1:19:31
If you get married, you don't get a pamphlet. Nothing. Literally nothing. You get no explan.
1:19:35
The first time most people learn what happened legally when they got married is when they're in my office. Yeah.
1:19:43
>> Which is the worst possible time to learn that.
1:19:45
Like you don't want to learn how to fight when you're in a fight. >> Totally.
1:19:49
>> You need to learn in advance, as far in advance as possible.
1:19:51
So I I have always thought like we would do the world a tremendous service by having anyone who's going to get married have some premarital education component to at least understand what you're signing on for.
1:20:04
The problem with it is without a prenup >> it is it is the most significant contract you would ever sign the marriage contract. Okay.
1:20:14
But it can be changed without your consent and without your knowledge by the government in giant ways.
1:20:26
And unlike other contracts like if I if I had a contract to like what's a contract most of us do like an apartment a a lease. A lease is a contract.
1:20:32
So I'm going to rent this.
1:20:35
I'm going to give you money.
1:20:36
You're going to let me stay in this apartment. Totally fair contract.
1:20:39
If one day you as a landlord come in and say, "Oh, um, I know we have that contract.
1:20:44
You're going to be in a different apartment.
1:20:46
It's much smaller and smells." >> Yeah. >> Then what do I say? Okay.
1:20:49
Well, then no, you're breaking the lease, so now I'm not going to pay you. That's fair.
1:20:56
That's not how it works in the marriage contract.
1:20:57
in the marriage contract when the state says, "Oh, yeah, alimony now has a formula or alimony is no longer taxable or no, uh, this is what we're going to do with the division of property."
1:21:09
You can't say, "Oh, well, that's not the that's not the rules I signed on for, so now we're just going to end this."
1:21:14
No, no, you're not allowed. You're not allowed.
1:21:16
You can't opt out of the contract. And they can change.
1:21:20
The government can change.
1:21:20
So again, you know, I have lots of conservative friends and they're all very quick to talk about your marriage is so important and no fault divorce is the scourge of the universe and and I always say to them, I'm like, you have a tremendous amount of confidence in the government if you're getting married without a prenup.
1:21:36
without a prenup. a tremendous amount because you're saying not only is the present rule set that I don't necessarily understand acceptable to me but any future rule set and over the last 20 years at least in the United States but most countries that I can think of there has been shifts in government >> where at any particular time someone would say I think the president is terrible I have several friends that
1:21:59
four years ago thought the president was terrible and I have friends who think that this current president is terrible so whichever side of the aisle you're on we should have a healthy distrust of allowing the government to make a contract for us that we can't get out of >> and and I think that's what a prenup prenup takes it out of the hands of the government and puts it I think where it belongs with these two people. But But what's the problem? It's not the expense.
1:22:22
It's one of the cheapest things we do.
1:22:24
>> We have to have that conversation. >> Yeah.
1:22:26
Well, it's it's it's a great it's actually so I had a friend who got married recently and you know in love everything else and before the marriage they decided to do a prenup and he was talking about how hard it was to bring it up, how hard it was to have the conversation but he was saying that it actually gave them all the skills they'll need for the most difficult conversation.
1:22:47
>> I have to tell you I've had a number of clients many who come in and say I don't even know how to bring this up.
1:22:53
Like I represent a lot of people in finance, a lot of men in finance, young men, late 20s, early 30s, high net worth, and they're marrying someone who's not in that space.
1:23:03
They're marrying a yoga teacher.
1:23:05
They're marrying, you know, someone who's an artist.
1:23:06
And they say, "Look, I I have a lot of confidence in the marriage.
1:23:11
I wouldn't marry this person if I didn't believe in it, but I, you know, I want to have some protections in place."
1:23:15
And uh these are people who are phenomenal at their jobs.
1:23:20
Their jobs involve a tremendous amount of risk.
1:23:22
like they're so much less riskadverse than I am.
1:23:24
Like they, you know, they move markets, you know, and they make big bets, you know, and they're terrified >> of saying, "Hey, you know, we're getting married and all."
1:23:38
>> Like there's going to be rules that, you know, govern this and like maybe we should be the ones to make the rule >> because it's met with such a sense of what do you mean?
1:23:46
Like what do you And by the way, it also creates in the person who has perhaps less incentive in that situation to to have a prenup that a prenup would be worse for them rather than better in the event of a divorce.
1:23:58
Again, at that moment, you don't know what the future holds for anybody.
1:24:02
It that that person has plausible deniability as to why they're against it.
1:24:05
Like, they're not going to say, "Well, no, I don't want a prenup because I want to be able to take you for everything you're worth."
1:24:09
What they would say is, "Oh, no.
1:24:11
Why would you need a prenup?
1:24:13
Like, we're going to stay married forever.
1:24:15
Don't you wouldn't you bet on that? You bet on this stock.
1:24:19
>> You won't bet on this like and but here's the problem.
1:24:23
>> It's it's not betting on a stock because you know investing in a stock I know my maximum loss is whatever I put in, right? So it goes to zero.
1:24:31
So I know what my loss is.
1:24:33
It's more like shorting a stock >> where there's almost no limit to how much you could potentially lose because you're talking about a future you. >> Yeah.
1:24:42
>> That you can't foresee at this moment what it's going to look like.
1:24:44
So yeah, it's a it's the same phenomenon that I think but it's but I have had clients who then come to me and say, you know, even if we never got a prenup, having conversations about it, >> Yeah. >> was so good. >> Yeah.
1:25:02
>> Because really the way that I and I do get calls from a lot of particularly young men, but but both genders saying, "How do I have a conversation about a prenup?"
1:25:12
And I've always thought a really great entry point is to say what I believe to be true, which is it's very hard to feel loved if you don't feel safe.
1:25:23
>> That everyone should feel safe.
1:25:23
Like I I've represented victims of of domestic violence for many years.
1:25:27
And I can tell you if you love someone, you want them to be safe. It's fundamental, right?
1:25:33
>> So I I think that's a good entry point to say, what do we each need to feel safe? Yeah.
1:25:40
>> And most of the time I think if you parse it that way, you know, someone said to me, look, I I will marry you and I but in the event we split up because you have more than me, I don't want to have nothing.
1:25:57
>> I I want to have some security.
1:26:00
>> Who can argue with that?
1:26:00
Who could argue with the logic of that? Like, of course. Of course.
1:26:03
And by the way, I don't want you to be with me >> purely out of the sense that, well, what am I going to I'm going to be destitute if I'm not with you.
1:26:09
I I want you to have the option of not being here.
1:26:11
Like if your spouse is only not cheating on you cuz you're tracking their location, what kind of security is that really?
1:26:17
If that's the only thing preventing them.
1:26:21
So, I think it's the same thing like saying to someone, look, I want to feel you're owed something, but are you owed everything? Yeah.
1:26:28
>> Okay, we agree you're not owed everything.
1:26:30
Hey, I'm going to need help from you if we split up.
1:26:32
Of course, you're going to need help.
1:26:34
So, let's figure out what that looks like.
1:26:35
Let's have a conversation about how to make each other feel safe.
1:26:38
That feels like an act of love to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's Yeah.
1:26:42
And that's a much healthier way to have that conversation.
1:26:45
>> And I think it's totally honest. I really do.
1:26:47
I think it's totally honest because even >> a lot of my job is figuring out what people are actually trying to say. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:26:58
>> You know, like when when when someone says, "I want 50/50 custody. I want 50/50 custody."
1:27:02
Like no sane person analyzes their time with their children by percentages.
1:27:07
Like I never when my kids were young went, you know, I've only spent 47% of the time with this.
1:27:11
We grab your glove, Billy.
1:27:13
We got to go outside and have 3% of time. Like that's insane.
1:27:16
It's an insane way to analyze something.
1:27:18
So really, what is a man saying if he comes in and says, "I want 50/50 custody."
1:27:21
He's saying, "I don't want to be an uninvolved secondass parent.
1:27:24
I don't want to be like the fun parent and the other person does all the big decisions and heavy lifting.
1:27:29
like I want to be actively involved in the hard part and the fun part.
1:27:32
That's a very worthwhile sentiment.
1:27:34
Like >> that's the that's the thing we need to learn to say >> because when you hear that there's just so much argue with it. >> Yeah.
1:27:41
There's so much depth to it.
1:27:43
There's so much >> but when you argue both sides of every issue for 25 years, you really do start to figure out that a lot of this is like what we're saying underneath what we're saying.
1:27:56
like the position that we're taking versus the principles behind it.
1:28:01
A lot of this is just like miscommunication.
1:28:03
And I don't mean miscommunication in that you're you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.
1:28:07
I mean that >> we're not really even in touch with what we're trying to say, you know, cuz again, even the the practical example of like, well, we never have sex anymore.
1:28:18
We don't have sex as much as we used to.
1:28:19
Common refrain in people's marriages.
1:28:22
what you're really saying underneath that is so lovely. >> Yeah.
1:28:26
>> Like that I love that aspect of us.
1:28:26
When I don't have it, I miss it.
1:28:30
Who wouldn't want to be told when you're away I miss you? Why?
1:28:35
Because when you're here, it makes my life better.
1:28:38
What What could be sweeter than to have someone feel that way about you?
1:28:42
But when you say it as, "Oh, you're going to the office again tonight?"
1:28:45
Well, okay, now I'm on the defensive. >> Yeah.
1:28:49
>> Well, and by the way, and me saying, "Well, I have to.
1:28:50
I've got this, you know, whereas if you said, you know, I'm terrified.
1:28:55
Like, I want to be a really good provider to you.
1:28:57
Like, I I you've trusted me to keep you safe and to give you and our kids the things we need.
1:29:02
And I feel that weight sometimes.
1:29:05
And like, I don't know, maybe I'm doing too much, but God, I'd rather do too much than do too little cuz I'm terrified I'm going to fail you.
1:29:14
>> Who wouldn't say to that person, okay, you know, go.
1:29:17
And also, no, I'll love you even if you fail. Yeah.
1:29:21
>> Like what a lovely thing if we could just put down that egodriven myopia that we all have because I think underneath all of this, you know, I I I don't believe people do evil cuz they're evil.
1:29:36
I think they mistake it for happiness. >> Yeah.
1:29:42
>> Yeah. that I mean even just hearing you say that it just like you know kind of gives me goosebumps and just kind of hits there because you're like gosh how many how many people would save the time the money the energy the >> pain that they go through simply because
1:29:59
we didn't explain our anger we just expressed it >> right and we didn't understand it ourselves you know I I joke that >> I don't do much mediation uh I I used to do more of it litigation's more lucrative So unfortunately it's taken a back and I've gotten very I'm very good at courtroom work. So I I've sort of
1:30:15
So I I've sort of found a niche that you know works for me.
1:30:19
me. But I used to joke that mediation you're I used to say I was an English translator because I would always do shuttle diplomacy and I would put them in separate rooms and I would get them to talk to me candidly about what they were dealing with and they would say like you know I don't want him bringing the kids around that of a girlfriend I and then
1:30:43
I'd go in the other room and I'd say you know she has some concerns about how the children are being exposed to new relationships and I'm sure when she's in a new relationship that's that's a concern you could share and he's like well yeah of course you know we shouldn't both be you know introducing the kids to someone we're not serious about. I'm like exactly you know you
1:30:59
I'm like exactly you know you don't want your kids to feel untethered and that >> now we're having a useful conversation but if I let them go at it with each other it it the way it the minute it comes out there's this feeling of like you know and now we're positional and now we're right at it. >> Yeah.
1:31:17
What's something you've heard in your office or in court that broke your heart?
1:31:22
>> Like I said, I'm sensitive, so I think a lot of things break my heart.
1:31:23
Um, you know, I I've developed such a professional callous that it shocks me sometimes because things that should register on my emotional radar, but I I think I would be I think I would be much less effective at what I do if I let that happen.
1:31:52
You know, like I I have a friend who's a pediatric oncologist, and I said to him once, "How do you do that job and not just cry all day?
1:32:00
Like, you're just with children with cancer all day. I can't.
1:32:07
That would be like one of the rings of hell for me."
1:32:10
And he said, "Uh, it's not hard."
1:32:13
He said, I that's I'm here to be of service and I will be less effective if I allow myself to do that.
1:32:23
So I have to learn to turn that part of me off.
1:32:24
I have to see this not lose my humanity, not lose, you know, there's a saying from Reese Sardonicus.
1:32:34
Um he said um I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to attain certain specific objectives for people whose suffering is greater than my need to maintain moral purity.
1:32:49
M >> so I think sometimes >> so good >> I find myself saying I I I I believe I I represent the client but I also represent the system >> and I don't always believe in the client but I have to believe in the system and so the things that break my heart most often is when I am used as an instrument for cruelty to another person or when people in a courtroom lose because they can't afford better representation.
1:33:28
I I think in our judicial system in the United States, unfortunately, you get as much justice as you can afford sometimes.
1:33:35
And it's not supposed to be that way.
1:33:38
It's supposed to be equal protection under law.
1:33:39
It's really supposed to be.
1:33:41
It's what drew me to the field is this sense that like a multi-millionaire and a poor person have equal protection under law and you're supposed to have vigorous representation.
1:33:55
But this is like any other field.
1:33:55
Like there are people that are excellent at it and the people that are excellent at it very often rise to the top and start to only represent like I I jokingly say that you know I represent all kinds of people.
1:34:06
Gay people, straight people, black people, white people.
1:34:07
I don't represent poor people very often.
1:34:10
You know, I'm I'm $850 an hour.
1:34:12
And so people sometimes get less apt counsel that's less expensive.
1:34:22
And the only thing more expensive than a good divorce lawyer is a bad one.
1:34:24
So I think sometimes that's a very unfortunate reality of our system.
1:34:28
I'd like to think that at some chapter in the not too distant future, I'll I'll be at a place in my career where I can just like quit private practice and work for like a legal services agency.
1:34:38
I've seen a couple of my colleagues do that and I I'm just cheering for them because they suddenly bring like this massive amount of experience and talent to bear for for to create access to justice.
1:34:50
So, I think the things that break my heart in courtrooms are not what you'd think, which is the day-to-day testimony of listening to the pain of people and their children.
1:35:02
>> It it really is when the system fails.
1:35:05
>> There are some judges that should not be wearing a robe like they're supposed to stand for something >> and some of them don't.
1:35:10
And a bad lawyer can screw things up, but a bad judge can really screw things up in a gigantic way.
1:35:20
They have they're given power and with great power comes great responsibility and some of them do not deserve it.
1:35:25
They they do not they they are not they won a popularity contest like New York has an elected judiciary so they won a popularity contest >> and we're blessed.
1:35:39
I have some judges I appear in front of who they are perfect for the role.
1:35:43
They have the temperament.
1:35:45
They have the experience.
1:35:45
they have they have the empathy like but there are some that you know they're drunk on the power of it.
1:35:54
They're mad at the world.
1:35:54
They're mad at their own ex-wife or ex-husband and they're taking it out on people in a courtroom.
1:36:00
And when that happens, that's um there's a powerlessness in that that I I have a very hard time navigating because I can't be the out cause.
1:36:12
like I don't know how to fix that.
1:36:16
>> You know, >> how does someone know?
1:36:17
And how do you know, but h how does someone know if they should keep trying to fix a relationship or it's time to get a divorce?
1:36:26
>> I mean, that's such a subjective assessment.
1:36:27
M >> I'm a fan of >> you know there's that old axiom that you know quitters never win and winners never quit but if you never win and you never quit you're an idiot so at some point like at some point I think people have to know it's time you know I was a hospice volunteer for many And the biggest thing that anyone who works in hospice will tell you is that people call hospice too late.
1:37:04
Like there's so much that you can do in palative care if they come to you earlier and and they come to you early in the process.
1:37:15
If someone has a terminal diagnosis, even if they're not ready for hospice care yet, you can put a plan in place.
1:37:23
Okay, when we hit this milestone, we're going to do this.
1:37:25
And when we hit this, we can't add years to your life, but we can add life to your years.
1:37:29
You know, >> by the time people are in my office, it's so far down that road that >> it's I think quite hard to find your way back, >> right?
1:37:41
So I I think um when you've reached the point in a relationship where you have made real good faith efforts to identify and address the distance and that has been wholly unsuccessful and the other person is not committed.
1:38:05
maybe not in the same level of commitment as you but not committed at all cuz identifying that there is a problem is the first piece.
1:38:13
problem is the first piece. So if the other person is saying no there's no problem I think there comes a point where again sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately >> and I I'm a believer in divorce I I not I mean of course I'm as a divorce lawyer
1:38:30
I have a self-interest in saying that but even in my own life I I divorced 20 years ago and my ex-wife is very dear to me she's a she's still a dear friend her she's been remarried for 15 very successfully, much longer than we were ever married to a to a wonderful guy. I
1:38:46
I just got to spend a lot of time with him at my son's wedding and we had a lot of laughs and a lot of shared time and space together and this these two boys who we both love so much.
1:38:58
who we both love so much. And um I think that was an example of you know when when I when my ex-wife and I 20 years ago when we decided we were going to divorce we had a very difficult and honest conversation at the kitchen table and our kids were I think three and four three and five at the time
1:39:23
and uh we loved them more than anything and I remember she said to me after we'd had this very tearary very difficult conversation where we're both really honest with each other about how deeply unfulfilled we felt and how much we loved each other, but that there's a lot of people that you love that you might not be well married to. And I remember she said to me, "If sheer
1:39:45
And I remember she said to me, "If sheer power of will could make two people love each other, we would love each other forever."
1:39:53
I remember thinking it was so honest and so true that sometimes love just the feeling of love is not enough to sustain this very particular kind of connection two people are going to have.
1:40:08
Like my sons thankfully grew up in in an environment of tremendous love and a deep connection to both their mom and I.
1:40:17
But they laughingly now say as adults like how were you and mom ever married?
1:40:22
Like you you have nothing in common.
1:40:22
You don't like any of the same things.
1:40:25
Like and I laugh and I say to them, "Yeah, we're incredibly different.
1:40:29
Like in the best relationships, it's like the ven diagram.
1:40:33
There's the you, the me, and the wei.
1:40:35
And there's some overlap, you know, and us it just wasn't, you know, but we were, you know, we met when we were 18, you know, she was beautiful, you know, I was cool and I had a motorcycle." Like, I don't know.
1:40:45
Like those are the things that matter at that age.
1:40:48
You know, we're making this decision like I often say to people, you know, if I said to you, you can have any car you want when you were 18, what car would you have had? >> Yeah.
1:41:01
It would have been some sports car, something quite like Yeah. >> Okay.
1:41:06
If then I told you, "Oh, that's the only car you're going to have for the rest of your life."
1:41:10
Do you think 18-year-old you would think, "Well, wait, it's not going to fit a car seat." >> Yeah.
1:41:16
>> And when I'm 80, how am I going to get in and out of it?
1:41:18
So, that's what we're doing when we marry.
1:41:22
Like, we're this young like I I wish I was 25 again cuz I still knew everything.
1:41:31
Like, I knew everything when I was 25, if you asked me.
1:41:33
Like, now I'm humble enough.
1:41:36
Like, life will humble you enough that you go, "Oh, yeah." Yeah.
1:41:39
Like the list of stuff I don't know gets bigger. >> Yeah. >> Not smaller. >> Yeah.
1:41:45
>> And my humility grows. >> Yes. Yes.
1:41:48
>> And I think >> So true.
1:41:50
>> We're we're we we marry at an age rightfully so where are we, you know, we want to have kids, maybe we want to, you know, our biological clocks are ticking.
1:42:00
We're so gassed up on hormones and love and sex and everything.
1:42:03
So, so we're making this gigantic life decision at an age where we still think we know everything, but our prefrontal cortex isn't even necessarily fully developed.
1:42:14
So, what do you think is going to happen there?
1:42:16
You know, we have to be willing to say, you know, hey, maybe maybe we made the wrong decision.
1:42:23
Maybe we made the wrong choices.
1:42:25
Again, I'm a fan of doing everything you can. It's just like hospice. Do what you can.
1:42:28
do what you can to sustain your life and have joy and quality of life.
1:42:33
You can have a lot of impairments happen to your body and still have a tremendous quality of life, a wonderful quality of life.
1:42:40
But when you've reached the point where now we've tipped to the direction where my quality of life, my prognosis is so bad that the inevitable is going to happen sooner rather than later.
1:42:53
That's when we should start talking about okay, what now? >> Yeah.
1:42:57
>> And that's what I think this just is. >> Yeah.
1:42:59
you talking about your your former partner and your two sons and obviously being at the wedding like it it's so fresh for you and I was thinking about it because I think a lot of people go through this you probably hear a million times and I've had so many friends talk about this but is staying together for the kids actually hurting the kids.
1:43:18
Well, this is a a really important question because I think a lot of people stay in challenging relationships for the benefit of their children.
1:43:29
And I don't I don't think that's a bad thing.
1:43:31
I think when you have children with someone, a a lot of difficulty comes with children.
1:43:40
We don't like to talk about that in polite society, but children are antagonistic to marriage.
1:43:45
>> We talked about it earlier in this conversation.
1:43:47
like they take attention away from each other and that by the way that's one of the great things about having children is it's not all about you anymore. >> Yeah.
1:43:54
>> And that's good you know but it's also challenging emotionally and and it we feel guilty to say it out loud you know again one of the great innovations I think of our present time is that for a time there was a book called the mask of motherhood where before the internet you know women were constantly how's the baby? Oh, it's great. Everything's great. It's great. Everything's great. It's great.
1:44:15
And meanwhile, they're like, "Oh my god, like I'm This is horrible. I'm exhausted.
1:44:20
I love this baby, but I want to kill it sometimes cuz it won't stop crying and I feel out of control."
1:44:26
Like, and now I think we have a society where I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you can say that and other women will go, "Yeah, it's okay. I felt like that, too.
1:44:35
We're supposed to feel like that. It's okay.
1:44:36
Doesn't mean you don't love your kid. That's beautiful. That's wonderful."
1:44:42
But I think we've got to a place where, you know, some of those hard things to talk about, we don't talk about in the context of relationship.
1:44:51
And I think there is value in having bonds that tie us together like children.
1:44:59
>> But the skill set of a spouse and the skill set of a parent are different. >> Absolutely. >> You know, absolutely.
1:45:07
I I would like to say I was not a great husband.
1:45:12
I I I'm not like I have a number of deficiencies, you know, like I'm impatient.
1:45:17
I'm, you know, some of the things that would make me a make a good husband, I don't possess.
1:45:22
I'm an excellent ex-husband. I'm reliable. I'm communicative.
1:45:28
I'm, you know, I'm dependable.
1:45:30
Um, I'm very child focused.
1:45:33
I'm a really good father.
1:45:33
You know, I'm a really good father.
1:45:35
I I I so I think sometimes people come into my office and they say like, "Oh, he was a terrible husband and I don't want him to have any time with the kids."
1:45:44
And then you kind of go, "Wait a minute. Is he a bad father?"
1:45:46
Because even though some of the skills might overlap, you know, it it like patience would be good in both of those roles.
1:45:53
They're very different roles.
1:45:55
So I think identifying that is important.
1:45:58
I think what the long-term behavioral research on children and divorce says, and there's a great book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce, that was the longest term study ever done of children of divorce.
1:46:11
And what it essentially found is that although divorce and conflict, parental conflict correlate, right? Makes sense.
1:46:25
People that have a lot of conflict often divorce.
1:46:28
That the parental conflict is what's most damaging to children. >> Yeah.
1:46:34
>> Loyalty binds and witnessing parental conflict is harmful to children.
1:46:42
>> It stands to reason that many children of divorce have grown up in part or in long in a home filled with conflict because people with lots of conflict often get divorced.
1:46:52
But it's not the it's not the divorce, it's the conflict that is and the parental conflict that's so harmful.
1:47:00
So I would certainly say if you are struggling in your relationship and you have children, you have a tremendous incentive to figure out is there a way for us to to reconcile this relationship temporarily or long-term in a way that doesn't betray our core identities or ideals. >> Yeah.
1:47:22
But if you are in a relationship where you are your children are surrounded by conflict in the ecosystem of your home, I don't think you're doing them any favors gutting it out and staying together like cuz I again I I don't think the goal of marriage should be we did it. We did it. We we made it to death.
1:47:49
We were miserable for the last 30 years, but we did it.
1:47:51
Like it's that seems strange to me.
1:47:56
>> I think the goal should be marriage satisfaction.
1:47:59
>> And are we I would hope that at the end of your life, you are still married to your wife and that what she would say of you is, he made my life better. Mhm.
1:48:17
>> He helped me figure out who I am.
1:48:17
He helped me become the most authentic version of myself.
1:48:25
Like, what more noble goal could there be to life than to find someone and love them and help them become who they are, >> you know, and help them like help you become who you are and who you're meant to be. >> Mhm.
1:48:43
So if that's the goal, if the marriage isn't facilitating that result, okay, do what you can to fix it.
1:48:51
But if it can't be fixed at some point, I think letting go is hard.
1:48:57
>> But I think it's right. >> Yeah.
1:48:58
And there's also what you said, there's a nuance there because if it's the conflict that affects the kids, the conflict can exist when you're together and when you're divorced, >> of course.
1:49:08
So if you're still having >> that distance, but you're still talking about the other person in an unhealthy way and there's constantly games with the kids.
1:49:16
>> I've seen every permutation of that.
1:49:16
I mean, and that's the stuff that >> the way people unintentionally harm their children with permission of their own conscience. >> Yeah.
1:49:29
>> You know, and they they genuinely believe they're like helping their children, >> you know, but but that's the danger.
1:49:36
Like divorce is is is so challenging because, you know, there's there's become an increasing amount of attention paid in the legal system now to parental estrangement.
1:49:47
And and parental estrangement can sometimes be rooted in something genuine.
1:49:50
If someone's a a bad parent, children eventually don't want to be around that person.
1:49:57
But sometimes parental estrangement is caused by alienation which is the active interference in the parent child relationship and the natural development of that bond.
1:50:05
And sometimes it's what's called negative gatekeeping >> which is where you could have been helpful >> in helping your co-parent stay bonded to your child and instead you chose to do nothing. >> Yeah.
1:50:18
So, one is an active interference and the other is a passive, you know, and very often what you see in in in contested ugly custody cases, which I do a lot of, you see some combination of those things.
1:50:29
So, like dad steps on the rake, he does something stupid.
1:50:32
He he yells at the child in a way he shouldn't have.
1:50:35
He punishes them in a way that he shouldn't have.
1:50:37
>> And mom could have helped the kid navigate that better.
1:50:40
But instead, cuz she doesn't like dad, she weaponizes it. >> Mhm.
1:50:46
and she has the permission of her own conscience because she goes, "I'm protecting my child." But it's so subtle.
1:50:52
Like that's the danger is, you know, like when it takes a rare kind of crazy person to say, "Your dad is a bad person." >> Mhm.
1:51:03
>> And you shouldn't love him. >> Mhm.
1:51:05
>> But it takes nothing to do, hello, here, it's your dad. >> Yeah.
1:51:12
>> I just said dad's a bad person.
1:51:12
I don't have to say it out loud.
1:51:13
You know, it's the difference between Oh, how was how was your weekend with dad? What'd you guys do?
1:51:20
Oh, we went to the park and we, you know, met his new friend, Cindy. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's nice.
1:51:24
What' you guys What' you have to eat? Oh, we've got pizza. Oh, that's great. What was Cindy like? Oh, she's really nice.
1:51:31
You know, she's got pretty blonde hair and she uh likes to ride bicycles.
1:51:34
Oh, that's You like to ride bicycles, too. So, that's nice.
1:51:37
I I'm not surprised that dad likes her because dad likes bicycles, too.
1:51:39
You know, all right, go upstairs.
1:51:41
You know, we got school tomorrow morning.
1:51:42
Let's figure out what we're going to do.
1:51:43
And I'm so glad you're back.
1:51:47
I I missed you so much when you were with dad. Are you okay? Yeah. You okay? Did everything go okay? Are you all right? Yeah. What'd you do?
1:51:56
You went to You went to the park? You went to the What? It's been so cold out.
1:52:00
Why'd you go to the You went Did you just You and Dad went Cindy who? Who's Cindy? Who's Cindy? Cindy. Dad's friend.
1:52:08
Does do you mean dad's girlfriend?
1:52:10
Does dad have a girlfriend now?
1:52:11
And he's not selling anyone that he has a girlfriend, you know.
1:52:13
You know, well, you know what?
1:52:17
Go upstairs and and uh you know, get whatever you like. >> Yeah.
1:52:22
>> I just told this kid so much.
1:52:22
And the part of the judicial system, cuz as a lawyer, it doesn't matter what I know.
1:52:28
It matters what I can prove.
1:52:28
So, you know what the judicial system solution to that is?
1:52:32
We'll assign a lawyer to the kid.
1:52:34
And the lawyer is going to sit down with the kid and say, "Does mom ever say bad things about dad?" And guess what? The answer is no.
1:52:44
>> I didn't say what did she say that was bad about dad.
1:52:47
>> She didn't say anything bad about dad.
1:52:48
She asked, "What'd you have to eat? I missed you.
1:52:50
It's nice that you're home. >> Who's Cindy?" >> Like, who's Cindy? I was asking a question.
1:52:55
I He brought this person around our child.
1:52:57
I don't know who they are, you know?
1:52:58
So, I just wanted to ask my Oh, oh, who is she?
1:53:00
But meanwhile, no, you sent a whole message to that kid.
1:53:05
And by the way, be a grownup.
1:53:05
like love your kid more than you hate your ex >> because all you have to do in that situation is do what you do as an adult which is pretend.
1:53:20
Like I remember my son Noah who's now 28 when I just got married.
1:53:23
I remember him when he was about four years old having pneumonia and he had like 104 fever >> and he was burning up >> and he was in my lap and I remember like it was yesterday.
1:53:40
I remember the doctor said to us cuz we called him panicked and the doctor said, "Okay, if it goes to 105, you got to get him to the emergency room."
1:53:49
And I remember him like so like it's a visceral memory. So sick.
1:53:53
And I remember being like, "It's okay. It's okay, buddy. It's okay. You're okay. You're okay. It's okay. You're okay. No, you're fine.
1:54:04
You're You're just sick right now. It's going to be okay. Don't worry about it. It's okay.
1:54:07
Everything's going to be fine." Cuz that's what you do. Like that's what you do.
1:54:12
He did not need me to do what I'm even recalling this memory 24 years later and he's fine. He's on his honeymoon. He's fine.
1:54:18
Like, but I I'm literally ready to cry thinking about it because I remember being so terrified.
1:54:24
I'd never been that scared in my life.
1:54:28
I loved this thing more than I'd ever loved anything.
1:54:30
And I thought, "Oh my god, he's going to die."
1:54:34
But what he needed me to do in that moment is be strong and lie. >> Yeah.
1:54:40
>> He needed that from me. And so, do that. >> Just do that.
1:54:45
I don't care if you're upset that dad's dating Cindy and that dad really stepped on the rake and should have told you, "Hey, I'm going to introduce our kid to this girl I've been seeing."
1:54:55
And you guys should have had a conversation where you say like, "Hey, is this someone you're serious about?"
1:55:00
before you take them around our kid and what are you going to tell the kid and give me a little info on this so we can figure out how to like send the right message together?
1:55:06
You know, that's not the place to have that with the kid.
1:55:10
You have to have that with your co-parent.
1:55:12
But again, we don't teach people.
1:55:15
We don't teach people how to do relationships. >> Yeah.
1:55:18
>> And we don't teach them how to do when relationships end.
1:55:20
And with 50% or more of marriages ending in divorce, we could do better at teaching people how to be good ex-husbands and good ex-wives, how to be good co-parents after divorce.
1:55:31
But nobody wants to buy that book. >> Yeah.
1:55:35
>> Nobody wants to buy that book cuz they all think they're great at it. >> Yeah.
1:55:38
>> They all think they're great at it.
1:55:38
And I have some clients that are abysmally bad at it.
1:55:42
And a lot of what I have to do is give them credit where credit's not due.
1:55:47
I have to say to them like, "Right, but of course you would never do X, Y, and Z because I know you and I know you're a good person.
1:55:53
I know you love your kids."
1:55:54
You know, so I have to play little mind games with them and say to them all the time like, you know, they'll say, "Well, I'm going to introduce, you know, the kids to my girlfriend this weekend.
1:56:04
You know, do I have to tell her?"
1:56:05
I'll go, "Do you have to?" "No, you don't have to."
1:56:07
But of course you should. Of course you will. Yeah.
1:56:10
>> Like you're >> Wouldn't you want to know if she was Yeah.
1:56:13
And obviously this person you're introducing him to you, you know, I'm sure you're not doing that with someone that you like met on Tinder and you're, you know, going to know for two weeks like this, >> I'm sure this is a serious relationship.
1:56:23
And they're like, well, yeah, it's sort of serious.
1:56:24
I'm like, cuz if it's not, you know, you might >> obviously might want to wait a little bit, you know, and like I have to be in the position where I'm educating them as to what >> without educating them. Yeah.
1:56:33
You've got to kind of be that, >> right?
1:56:35
Because I'm their advocate. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. >> I'm their advocate.
1:56:37
>> I'm their advocate. the the truth of my profession and the best of us that do this because I can say it about my colleagues although I've never been their client in the courtroom at the negotiating table I am a viciferous advocate I'm a weapon you know I'll advocate for whatever crazy position is
1:56:52
necessary in that situation behind closed doors I'm this >> like I'm I'm very blunt with my clients I'm very candid with them because >> they they don't need me to tell them what they want to hear they need me to tell them what they need to hear and so I'm very very honest with my clients behind closed doors. I will tell them,
1:57:09
I will tell them, you're going through a process where you could spend $50,000 arguing over a $60,000 bank account. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:57:17
>> And if you win, you didn't win $60,000, you won $10,000.
1:57:20
And if you lose, you lost $110,000. >> Yeah.
1:57:26
>> Like, so divorce is like that.
1:57:26
I mean, I had a case, a multi-million dollar marital estate, probably worth 30 $40 million.
1:57:34
The settlement fell apart because of a toaster oven, a $48 toaster oven, >> because it was the one issue they couldn't agree on as division of personal property.
1:57:47
>> And I just remember being in the room and thinking I could on my phone right now with Prime Delivery have every person in this room get one of this toaster oven >> tomorrow and they're going to blow this thing up over this.
1:58:00
Cuz it wasn't about the toaster. >> And they did blow up. >> They did. They blew it up. Yeah. Yeah.
1:58:04
And listen, it was great for the lawyers. Great for the lawyers. We get paid to fight.
1:58:07
Like when your lawyer is telling you the settlement's good, let's take the settlement.
1:58:12
I'm I'm acting against my interests.
1:58:14
I get paid for the fight. Like you don't.
1:58:16
And I manipulate people's emotional state for a living.
1:58:21
Like I make a judge feel sympathetic to my client, antagonistic to the other side.
1:58:24
I make the other side feel scared or vulnerable.
1:58:26
I make my client feel safe.
1:58:27
Like I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. That's the job.
1:58:32
You don't think I couldn't use that to gas my client up and feel terrified so that they need me to do more work? Of course I could. Of course I could.
1:58:38
I could turn that right on and I could Well, you know, listen, it's all fine now, but what if forces are aligning against you?
1:58:45
I could scare the crap out of these people and get them to give me hundreds of thousands of dollars.
1:58:48
The way you build a reputation, and this is a business where you live and die by your reputation, is by not doing that. Yeah. Yeah.
1:58:58
>> By being really honest with your clients, by being really blunt with your clients, and that's what I try every single day to wake up and do.
1:59:03
And and all of the best of my colleagues, I suspect that that's what they do. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:59:07
It's it's painful though because it all comes down back to what we've been talking about this whole time, which is this >> personal growth and ego of not in in every whether it's you being mad at your partner when you're together, whether it's you being on the honeymoon or dating, whether it's you >> thinking about divorce, it's always your ego and your control and your desire for power >> that's constantly getting in the way.
1:59:34
even to the toaster oven >> which is that final straw of no I want to have the final say and they should feel the wrath and not me and it's it's that growth of like when are those insecurities not going to be mine anymore and when are those you know cuz hopefully I'm getting divorced so that I can move on from that but if I'm still upset that the person's with Cindy like
1:59:54
that's just >> pulling me I'm still controlled by that >> by the way it's perfectly okay to feel jealous it's perfectly okay to feel but but I totally agree I I think all of these problems, whether they're in the context of divorce or in the context of navigating a functional relationship that's having challenges or employer employee relationships. You're right,
2:00:12
You're right, it's all ego- based things.
2:00:14
Neil Postman, who was one of my mentors at NYU, a beautiful prolific writer about culture, he used to say that technology offers us real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems.
2:00:30
M m >> and I think marriage is an imaginary solution to a real problem.
2:00:37
The real problem is we're alone.
2:00:41
>> You feel terribly alone.
2:00:44
This world is easier to navigate with someone.
2:00:49
You can't learn everything you need to know about yourself from yourself. >> Absolutely.
2:00:52
>> You need someone who sees your blind spots.
2:00:54
There's nothing more wonderful than feeling loved other than perhaps giving love and having someone feel your love who you love.
2:01:03
So these are all real problems. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:01:10
>> But the idea that I'm going to get a piece of jewelry on my finger and I've got that locked down now and I'm going to not feel this.
2:01:17
That's Look, I represent some of the wealthiest people in the United States.
2:01:22
I am in the finance capital arguably of the world.
2:01:30
Some of my clients are worth billions of dollars.
2:01:32
My wealthiest client is probably worth about $8 billion.
2:01:37
He is as bad at this as anyone.
2:01:37
You cannot buy your way into it.
2:01:40
Like you can't, you know, there's there's no amount of money that you can spend to fix disconnection between you and your partner.
2:01:50
There's no Birkin bag you can buy them.
2:01:53
There's nothing you can do. >> Yeah.
2:01:56
>> That will replace some of these fundamental things.
2:01:57
And the struggles like money, you know, neither you nor I grew up with money.
2:02:07
And I think when you grow up without money, I don't know if this was your experience. It certainly was mine.
2:02:11
Money came to symbolize everything I didn't have.
2:02:16
Like if if I have money, I'll feel safe.
2:02:19
If I have money, I'll feel valuable and worthy.
2:02:22
If I have money, I'll feel secure.
2:02:26
And then you get money and you just have money.
2:02:30
>> Like you don't you still feel unsafe.
2:02:32
You still feel are some things easier? Of course.
2:02:34
Of course, money's important and it does make some things easier and it does give some modicum of security.
2:02:39
But from the fundamental challenges of life like these real challenges.
2:02:41
So those are real problems.
2:02:43
I think marriage again asking the question what is the problem to which marriage is a solution is the key.
2:02:52
>> Who falls for divorce more men or women?
2:02:55
>> Women by a significant majority.
2:02:55
It's over 70% of divorces are accepted by women.
2:03:00
Unfortunately though that's a statistic that gets unfairly weaponized quite often.
2:03:05
>> How should we process it? What does it tell us?
2:03:07
So, the popular antagonism in the whether you want to call it the manosphere or in in misogynist spaces, whatever you might want to call it, in in in spaces that are there to defend men's perspective, is that women are somehow coming into the casino of marriage, amassing a lot of winnings, and then cashing out.
2:03:29
And that's why the number of women in is in the 70% in the commencement of divorce actions.
2:03:37
What I have found in my own practice is that that although that is certainly the case sometimes that more often than not it is that um men more often than women go out for milk and never come back or just come home one day and say I'm leaving.
2:04:01
Part of that has to do with children.
2:04:04
I think we know you can be a Bella Abzug feminist if you'd like to be.
2:04:07
And I think you would concede that if you met me, a man, and said, "Jim, tell me about yourself."
2:04:14
And I said, "Well, I'm divorced. I'm a lawyer.
2:04:19
I see my children every other weekend and once a week for dinner.
2:04:21
They live with their mom."
2:04:24
This would in almost no way shape your opinion of me as a parent.
2:04:27
Whereas, if I was a woman and I said, "I'm divorced.
2:04:34
The children live with their father and I see them every other weekend and once a week for dinner."
2:04:40
>> There's some part of you that would go, "What wrong with her?" >> Yeah.
2:04:43
>> Drug issue or like is there like, you know, substance use or some mental health? Like what? So why?
2:04:47
Because the overwhelming majority still of primary care of children is on women. Mhm.
2:04:56
>> So I think that the reason why women are more often the plaintiff in the divorce action is that we have created a society where for a man to walk away, say, "Bye, I'm out." It's easier.
2:05:11
And so when that happens, and it happens often, I have women who come into my office and say, "What do I do? >> He left.
2:05:22
>> He's already >> the mortgage hasn't been paid.
2:05:22
I I don't know like how am I going to do X, Y, and Z?
2:05:27
And I say, "Okay, we have to file a divorce action."
2:05:30
And they go, "Wait, no, I don't want to file a divorce action.
2:05:34
I'm not the one who wants a divorce. He is.
2:05:36
I want him to come back and for everything to be okay."
2:05:38
Okay, but he's not coming back and everything's not okay.
2:05:43
But what you need is the mortgage to be paid and an order that gives you temporary child support.
2:05:48
And the only way I can do that is to get a judge assigned.
2:05:51
And the only way I can get a judge assigned is to file a divorce action.
2:05:55
>> So then what happens is we filed the divorce action.
2:05:57
And then nine times out of 10 the guy who went out for milk and never came back, I can't believe you filed for divorce.
2:06:06
She Well, she's the one who filed for divorce.
2:06:10
And you kind of go, okay, no, like you killed it. She buried it. >> I get it.
2:06:16
>> But like you killed it.
2:06:16
Like what are you talking about?
2:06:18
You know, and by the way, I'm not suggesting you should have stayed.
2:06:21
There's lots of good reasons why a marriage might end, but just leaving and not confronting again, it's the same problem, right?
2:06:29
Is is it surprising that in a marriage where people were afraid to have difficult conversations that they might essentially do the equivalent of ghosting, like I'm just going to leave, I'm just out, you know?
2:06:40
So, that's where that statistic I think is is it's abused. >> Yeah.
2:06:46
Because if only again if only if only like I I in some ways wish we lived in a world like Sultzanitson said where where if only there were just evil people and we could just segregate them from the rest of us and live our lives in peace. It's not how it works.
2:07:00
The line of good and evil runs right through the human heart. >> Yeah.
2:07:05
>> And so there is not a simple answer that oh yes, women are just gold diggers and they're filing for divorce because they're cashing their chips out.
2:07:12
I have seen many many women commence divorce actions where they're taking a gigantic economic hit.
2:07:17
I have a client who recently we filed for divorce knowing that under the prenup what she's going to get she's no longer going to have private jets.
2:07:26
private jets. she is no le she is going to take a significant cut in her lifestyle but she's like yeah but I I need to be free of this relationship you know and and so to suggest that that that statistic proves this other thing I think is very self-interested by the
2:07:43
people that are >> positing that theory >> yeah who suffers more from divorce men or women >> I think the world is cruel to both in different ways is >> I think there is sometimes a tremendous economic burden put on men that is well beyond their capacity. I've seen child support awards and
2:08:08
I've seen child support awards and spousal maintenance or alimony awards that are are so gigantic that it it just literally cripples a man.
2:08:21
um especially when someone's lost their job and then the courts are very quick sometimes to say well your earning capacity is commensurate with your last employment so you'll find another job so the world can be cruel to men in that way and also I think there even though we abolished what used to be called the
2:08:36
maternal presumption which was a presumption or used to be called the tender years doctrine which is the presumption that women are better custodial parents to children than men we still live in the world and there's a tremendous amount of bias and there are a lot of really good dads and a lot of really awful moms and vice versa. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
2:08:55
>> But to suggest that because someone gave birth to a child like under your skin is under your sovereignty to assume that that person is a better caregiver to a child is absolutely ridiculous.
2:09:04
So um men men are are terribly hurt by the divorce system and the divorce industrial complex in those ways.
2:09:17
They don't have the time with their children that they probably would benefit from and that the children would benefit from and it's very easy to weaponize those things.
2:09:25
Women um the divorce system is sometimes very expensive to get the relief that you're entitled to.
2:09:34
Um the barriers to entry into getting that award is very challenging.
2:09:40
And I think post divorce my observation has been a divorced man his prospects for future relationships are better. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:09:52
I think when and again I I this is not a you know an indictment of believe me I'm sure that there are exceptions to this like there are to everything but by and large women in my observation of many many many many clients divorced men have a much bigger menu of options like there's you know a guy gets divorced in his early 40s and he's got a couple of kids.
2:10:23
He can usually get women in their 20s and their 30s cuz they'll look at it and go, "Oh, instant family. Just add me." Like, great.
2:10:29
Like, I'll be a step parent and, you know, I'll get involved in this.
2:10:33
Maybe we'll have our own kids, too.
2:10:34
But even if we don't, I'll get to have something quasi parental and and by the way, there will also be divorced women who he, you know, hey, our life lives are similar. We have co-parents. We have these things.
2:10:44
Let's get together and let's get married and Brady Bunch it.
2:10:47
You know, >> women I I think get a shorter end of the stick on that.
2:10:50
I think that there are a lot of men who see a woman who's divorced, even a young, beautiful, intelligent, articulate woman who's divorced through no fault of her own.
2:11:01
Perhaps maybe she had made a bad choice and and this is not was not a good person for her or for her children.
2:11:05
And a lot of men will look at it and go, >> she's got baggage.
2:11:10
I don't I don't want to deal with that and I I don't want what comes with that.
2:11:13
Again, many men step up in that situation.
2:11:15
And I think I've had the amazing experience of watching some men step up where I've had these young female clients and they get divorced and they're just convinced their life is over.
2:11:25
They're like, "I'm 34 years old.
2:11:27
34 years old. I got two kids and I'm divorced, you know, and then some guy very often like unexpected like a young guy with no kids who's never been married steps in and is like a hero and and you know couple years later I'm going to their wedding you know and and uh a few of them I have one couple in particular I'm thinking of she's had the greatest post-ivorce life
2:11:51
and greatest post-dorce marriage I've ever seen and now they have a baby together the two of them and this guy really stepped in to be a steparent for for uh her kids in a beautiful way and uh you know it's amazing but but I think as a general rule my observation has been it's it's divorce is is hard on men and hard on women in just different ways. >> Yeah. Yeah definitely. Uh, James, it has >> Yeah. Yeah definitely.
2:12:12
Uh, James, it has been such a joy talking to you today and I feel like I'm learning so much and just what what's really incredible talking to you about it is that >> you you really do have this rare ability to go to go from being really logical and rational about something to then being really emotional and emotive about it and it's try being this person.
2:12:34
>> Yeah, it's really beautiful to watch.
2:12:34
>> Yeah, it's really beautiful to watch. I I I really uh I really appreciate how you can oscillate between the two quite comfortably and gracefully and it's it's really powerful uh just >> just taking it all in and again the
2:12:46
reminders are >> powerful yet simple and th that's that's a wonderful thing because >> it's that with which we're stumbling >> and those are the same things we're all stumbling over and so >> and it's it's a wonderful commonality for us >> really part of our humanity. It's great
2:13:02
It's great to know that that's what it is.
2:13:04
That it it wasn't some big thing that you didn't become or that you didn't become successful or that you didn't, you know, something that was so far away and that it was right there. >> Right.
2:13:15
And the thing the peace >> the peace we're all looking for may not be so far away. >> Yeah.
2:13:23
>> You know, the questions we need to ask may not be so complicated. >> Yeah.
2:13:27
And the things we need to do to sustain or repair our relationships, they they may not be that inaccessible.
2:13:35
It may be right inside of us, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:13:38
We we end every interview with the final five.
2:13:40
These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
2:13:45
>> However, I'll probably break break my own rule knowing how good our conversation's been.
2:13:49
And so, >> I'm not known for my brevity. >> Yeah.
2:13:52
Uh James Exon, these are your final five.
2:13:54
So the first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
2:13:59
And of course it can be intertwined to love.
2:14:00
So what's the best love advice you've ever heard or received or given?
2:14:04
The best advice I've heard in general and it applies to love as as much as it applies to anything else is the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing.
2:14:16
M >> that that anytime you're confronted with with a choice that the harder thing is usually the right thing.
2:14:25
It's easier to sleep in than to exercise, but it might be the right thing to exercise.
2:14:29
It's it's easier to just hold your tongue and not share with your partner something that needs to be shared.
2:14:35
But the right thing to do is to do the hard thing.
2:14:38
So the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing. >> It's a great answer. I love that.
2:14:43
Uh never had it on the show.
2:14:45
Question number two, what is the worst love advice you've ever heard or received?
2:14:51
>> Happy wife, happy life. >> Why is that such bad?
2:14:54
>> People say it all the time and whoever created that, I want to just throttle them.
2:14:57
Um, I have an amendment to it and that is it should not be happy wife, happy life.
2:15:04
Cuz what's meant by that is just just just shut your mouth and just do what she tells you.
2:15:11
And that's, you know, and I I I just think it's terrible advice.
2:15:14
I think it's a way to build estrangement between two people.
2:15:17
It's a way to disconnect.
2:15:20
I think it could be amended to happy spouse, happy house. >> I think that's true.
2:15:26
I think that if if you can help your partner find joy that your joy will be more accessible and their desire to help you find joy will be more accessible to them and it creates a positive cycle.
2:15:38
So, I would say h I would say happy wife, happy life is is the worst advice.
2:15:43
The other the runner up would be follow your heart. Follow your heart.
2:15:48
That's one of those things people say like it is what it is.
2:15:51
It's like a thing you say when you don't really know what to say >> because I I genuinely, >> you know, >> like I don't I don't know that you should listen to your brain because your brain is lying to you all the time.
2:16:04
It's good to listen to your body because your body doesn't lie to you.
2:16:10
>> You know, it doesn't have the agenda that your brain has, >> but your heart, what you're really saying is listen to what I think, what my mind is telling me my heart is saying.
2:16:21
And that's that's dangerous. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like both of them. Great picks.
2:16:27
Because something you've really talked about today which was a resounding kind of principle was this idea of it's so much raising above just pleasure and happiness and comfort and this idea of being with someone who wants you to become the most authentic version of you and vice versa.
2:16:48
And that's such a different thing that you think you're signing up for when you get married cuz most people just signing up for you make me happy, >> you make me feel good.
2:16:57
And those are a part of that and those are important.
2:17:01
And no one's saying those things are not critical, but signing up to say, well, the long term that's going to evolve into I'm going to help you become the most authentic version of you and you're going to help me become and that's a massive evolution from you make me happy right now >> because I I I think it says something of
2:17:21
our humanity because my personal belief, my personal experience has led me to believe as a human being, you know, I was raised very Catholic, very religious and I've since left faith, you know, but I still believe in God and I still like the concepts and I don't believe in a devil, you know, I don't believe that there's this nefarious evil force. But if there was a
2:17:47
But if there was a devil, I think his principal function would be to tell us what I think many of us secretly believe.
2:18:02
And that is that we are so awful that God couldn't possibly love us.
2:18:09
>> And I think there is some part of us as human that sees all the ugliness in us that's in all of us.
2:18:15
All the selfishness, all the greed, all the lust, all the envy, all of it, all of it.
2:18:24
All of our humanity, that piece of our humanity, and is convinced and doesn't want to say out loud that if someone knew us, they couldn't possibly love us.
2:18:38
>> Like, that's I think our deepest fear. Mh.
2:18:41
>> Our deepest fear is that if you knew me, you you wouldn't love me anymore.
2:18:49
>> And so the opposite is true, which is when when you feel truly known, your good parts, your bad parts, and loved. >> Mhm.
2:19:00
>> That is the greatest feeling.
2:19:00
Like that is the the greatest experience a person can have for sure.
2:19:06
>> And by the way, we have it very often with our children. Mhm.
2:19:10
>> We're like, we don't care.
2:19:10
Like, no, no, they make mistakes, but it's okay. I love them anyway. Oh, no.
2:19:14
They're bad at this, but it doesn't matter. I love them anyway.
2:19:17
Like, I see them warts and all.
2:19:18
I see all the bad and all the good and the whole amalgam, and I love them anyway.
2:19:22
Like, I love them with all my heart.
2:19:23
So, to me, I think that's that's the core of it is we're just afraid that if someone knew us, they wouldn't love us.
2:19:33
So, we add all these other things on.
2:19:35
Well, how can I make this person feel pleasure? Yeah.
2:19:36
And how can And anytime they don't serve my pleasure, well, now they're failing my needs.
2:19:41
And we create all these ways to self-sabotage relationships when in fact what it really is is we don't really love ourselves.
2:19:48
We don't think we're worthy of love.
2:19:50
And I I think again, I'm not really Christian, but I think the most radical message that Jesus said in the Gospels was essentially that we are worthy of love.
2:20:08
Not that we should love others, >> but that that we should love ourselves, that we should we should believe that we are worthy of love, God's love, the love of each other.
2:20:17
And I I I genuinely think if we gave each other the grace, like gave ourselves the grace we give each other, you know, like because if you described to me all of the horrible things about you right now, like if the mics were off and you said to me, you know, Jim, I'm I know that we've met and we've now had a lovely conversation.
2:20:33
But if you got to the core of who I am, I have all of these horrible things and you told me about all these selfish things like people do all day long in my office.
2:20:42
They tell me all the horrible things they've done.
2:20:46
And I was to say, "Okay, that means you're human." >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
2:20:50
>> That means you're human.
2:20:50
That doesn't mean you're awful, terrible person. >> Yeah. >> You screwed up.
2:20:53
You did some things that maybe you shouldn't have done.
2:20:55
You should learn from that.
2:20:56
You should figure out how to not do that.
2:20:58
You see what it's led you to, but like it's okay.
2:21:01
Like I don't think you're a bad person.
2:21:04
Like that's the loveliest thing in the world.
2:21:06
And that's what I think love can be at its best.
2:21:08
And marriage can be at its best is that >> creation of that authentic self. >> Yeah.
2:21:14
I'm doing great with the one word answer. >> Well said. No, no, no. I wanted you to.
2:21:18
I was really happy about that.
2:21:18
Uh, question number three.
2:21:20
What's the question people never ask before marriage, but absolutely should?
2:21:26
>> I mean, I'll I'll go to my earlier question, which is what is the problem to which marriage is a solution >> for you specifically? >> Yeah.
2:21:33
Why am I getting married? >> Yeah.
2:21:35
>> And why and why is this other person getting married?
2:21:36
And are those goals aligned?
2:21:38
I think that's a a very worthwhile question. Yeah.
2:21:40
I think that would be the best question to ask I think is that what what is the problem I am trying to solve >> by getting married and what is the problem that this person is trying to solve and are those goals aligned? >> Mhm.
2:21:58
>> I also think it's worthwhile to ask at the risk of being unromantic although it's fairly obvious I'm a romantic at heart.
2:22:06
Um, I think there's also some really practical questions people should ask.
2:22:11
Like, are you a night person or a morning person?
2:22:13
Are you okay with dishes in the sink? Cuz I'm not at all ever. You know what I mean?
2:22:18
Like, are you a neat freak?
2:22:20
Are you somebody that's kind of, you know, do you leave your socks everywhere?
2:22:22
Can you tolerate someone who leaves their socks everywhere?
2:22:24
I do tend to leave my socks everywhere.
2:22:25
So, I think, you know, having some honest conversations about you're not just going because your wife's your wife.
2:22:32
She's also your roommate. >> Mhm.
2:22:34
>> She's also your business partner.
2:22:34
She's also your vacation companion.
2:22:36
She's like she's got a whole bunch of job des like if that was a job description for your companies.
2:22:43
>> Yeah, >> it's a long one, you know.
2:22:43
So, have some practical conversations about like the nuts and bolts of being married and the nuts and bolts of having a life together. >> Yeah, great answer.
2:22:52
Uh, question number four.
2:22:56
What's a lie that couples tell themselves at the start of a relationship that ultimately breaks them?
2:23:02
two opposite lies that this will change things and that nothing will change >> in different measure.
2:23:12
So sometimes people marry and they go well he wasn't the most fidelist boyfriend but now that we're married he'll be committed or you know he drank a bit too much when we were together but now you know and she was a bit of a compulsive spender but once we marry that'll rain in and we'll settle into it.
2:23:28
So thinking that this person's going to change and that the act of marrying someone will change fundamentally the relationship and also thinking I'm marrying this person how they are now how I am now and it will never change.
2:23:45
We will always be what we are to each other.
2:23:47
It will always feel the way it currently feels.
2:23:48
Um we will never change that much.
2:23:52
I think that's ridiculous.
2:23:55
We we change a tremendous amount.
2:23:57
With each passing decade of my life, I look back and go, "Oh my gosh, what changes in me?"
2:24:02
Not just my hair and my back hurting.
2:24:04
Like, what are the changes?
2:24:06
There's so much change as to how I approach things.
2:24:08
So, I think the two lies are that nothing will change and that things will change. >> Great answer. Love that.
2:24:16
Uh, fifth and final question.
2:24:19
We ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show.
2:24:20
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
2:24:27
>> Shortly after your 18th birthday, you would have to spend 6 months or so volunteering for hospice. >> Mhm.
2:24:36
>> I think we shield our society from death.
2:24:40
And I think it it infects the way we look at life.
2:24:45
It morphs in unhealthy ways the way we view death.
2:24:51
And it it causes us to focus on a lot of the wrong things.
2:24:58
A divorce is a death of sorts.
2:24:58
It's not surprising to me that I went from hospice to to divorce work because it's all about endings.
2:25:08
Everything is ending all the time.
2:25:08
And so I think if at the age of 18 everyone had to do mandatory service where they spent time working with the terminally ill, I think it would change fundamentally the way that our society was structured.
2:25:22
I think that you would I think so much of our world is designed to take your attention away from the fact that you're definitely going to die.
2:25:34
>> Because if you thought about the fact that you're definitely going to die, you wouldn't really care so much about what everybody else is selling.
2:25:41
You would be much more focused on what really matters in life and you wouldn't chase so many phantoms.
2:25:48
So, I would say that we would we would do society a tremendous service to do that.
2:25:55
An answer number two to that would be, you know, there would be like a mandatory waiting period to get married.
2:26:01
Like it should not be something that you can do just with 50 bucks by a guy who's dressed like Elvis when you're in Vegas hopped up on hormones and alcohol.
2:26:07
Like it should be there should be like, you know, with guns there's like a waiting period.
2:26:13
You know, you you get a driver's license, you got to like take a written test, you got to, you know, practice, you get like a learner's permit, and then there's restrictions on how much you're allowed to drive.
2:26:22
Like married, man, you nothing. You just here it is.
2:26:26
Knock yourselves out, kids. Figure it out.
2:26:27
You know, I I think there would be some some form of pre-marital education.
2:26:34
Maybe you have to talk to people that have been divorced.
2:26:35
You have to talk to people that are divorce lawyers.
2:26:36
You have to talk to some people that have been successfully married that volunteer for the gig.
2:26:40
and uh and then you can decide if you're going to get married or not. >> It's a great answer. I love it.
2:26:46
James Ston, the book's called How to Stay in Love if you don't already.
2:26:49
Follow James across social media.
2:26:52
Make sure you subscribe on YouTube, Instagram, Tik Tok, everywhere.
2:26:55
And uh James, honestly, I I love this.
2:26:58
I hope you'll come back on.
2:27:00
I feel like there's so much more we can explore.
2:27:02
There's so much more we can go into, but I'm so glad.
2:27:05
>> I suspected it would go this far.
2:27:07
>> Yeah, it was three hours. >> Is it really? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:27:09
You know, I could always there's very few conversations that I can say that about, but it's really lovely because there's nothing more lovely than when I absolutely lose track of time in a conversation and it feels like it was a half an hour and it and I go, "How long was that?"
2:27:23
So, this is one of those.
2:27:25
So, of course, I would very much welcome the chance to sit down again.
2:27:28
And I'm really glad we made this connection. >> Yeah. Thank you, James.
2:27:31
>> Yeah, you're very welcome. >> You're awesome. That was amazing. You're incredible, man. >> Thanks, man.
2:27:35
>> If you love this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr.
2:27:37
Gabbor mate on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.
2:27:45
Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable.
2:27:47
So a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it?
2:27:51
It goes with soft and green and vulnerable.