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Arguments are not something to win.
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The [music] person in front of you isn't fighting you.
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They are fighting to feel understood by you.
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How do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with us?
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There are people who will use silence as a punishment.
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That to me is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become a happier, healthier, and more healed.
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Today's guest is someone that I've been looking forward to having in the seat ever since I came across his content on social media.
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I knew I had to have a conversation with him.
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Today's guest is Jefferson Fisher, a trial lawyer turned communication expert whose simple practical tools have helped millions handle conflict with more calm and clarity.
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Jefferson is known for breaking down the exact words to use in real-life moments when emotions run high.
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His book, The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More, is already changing the way people navigate arguments, boundaries, and difficult conversations.
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I'm excited to welcome to On Purpose Jefferson Fisher.
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Jefferson, it's great to have you here.
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Okay, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, I mean it.
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I really, you know, when I first came across your content on Instagram, I think it was, I just thought it was so clear, it was so concise, and I feel communication is one of these underrated skills that we all use all the time.
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We all need it in every part of our lives, yet no one taught us how to do it at school or anywhere. Yeah.
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And I wanted to ask you, what has communication unlocked for you in your life and for the people that you help in a way that nothing else could? >> Mhm.
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It's unlocked a life of peace for me.
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You know, a lot of people say, "You You sound very calm."
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Well, it's because I've been through a lot of hard, and that means a lot of hard communication, a lot of hard conversations.
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The the the greater tolerance I have for difficult conversations, the greater relationships I'm going to have in my life.
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For me, communication has helped me be a better husband, a better father, a better friend in ways that only communication can do.
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And you're right, we we go through our whole season of growing up, going to high school, and going to college.
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And all of a sudden you get married, and then you look at the person next to you and go, "Oh, wait, I have to I have to talk to you. I have to talk at work. I have to manage people.
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How how do I how do I do that?"
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That's a skill of communication that is it is learned. It is not just gifted.
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Well, you just said that you are good communicator because you've had a lot of tough conversations and hard conversations.
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I think most of us, we avoid tough and hard conversations.
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We don't even want to go there.
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And we don't want to get into a tough discussion with our partner, or we don't want to get into a difficult discussion with our boss.
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So, we're trying our best to just navigate away from, and we think that's what good communication is.
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Why would you encourage people to meet difficult and tough conversations head-on?
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If you don't, the bill always comes due.
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The bill always comes due.
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You're going to have that difficult conversation at the very end, when you're at your wits' end.
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Or you may never have it all because there's going to be something in your life that happened that they're not going to be here anymore, and what should have been said, that opportunity was was lost.
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We avoid the difficult because we avoid the the angst that we feel.
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But yet, when we choose to have the difficult conversation, and we get on the other end of it and realize, "Oh, wait, I life didn't fall apart.
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Oh, wait, I'm still here.
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Oh, wait, they chose to accept me.
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Wait, they didn't run away."
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It's it's a feeling that that can't be replaced when you realize you can be more vulnerable with this person.
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You can go deeper with this person.
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Think of the people in your life that you're the closest with.
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They're the people who've seen your ugly, you know, the hard stuff, the messy stuff.
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And when you can have that kind of capacity for each other in communication and conversation, you're only going to to grow.
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Well, I think that's the thing, right?
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Like we the reason we're scared of having a tough conversation is because we're scared of the outcome.
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And so we've already predicted that I don't want to have that conversation because they're going to break up with me. Mhm.
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I don't want to have that conversation because then they're going to know I'm weak.
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I don't want to have that conversation because I might get fired or I might get looked over for that promotion.
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How do we approach tough conversations without an inherent belief of it being a negative result?
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It's the understanding that it's not my job to feel somebody else's feelings for them.
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And that's what you do when you're afraid to disappoint someone.
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You're afraid [snorts] to say the hard thing, the the right thing. You'd rather be nice.
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You'd rather say the the thing that sounds good.
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Those kind of things always have a bitter taste because you realize I'm not being real. I'm not being authentic.
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And before you know it, you've just been people pleasing.
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Before you know it, you feel less than yourself.
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Before you know it, you feel lost and you really don't know who you are.
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And now you're in your mid-40s and you have a crisis and you go, "What is my purpose on life here?
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Because I've been living it to serve everybody else's needs, not for what's true and authentic in my life."
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I'm trying to think of someone I was speaking to this week.
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I was I was speaking to someone and they said they're going through a tough romantic situation. Mhm.
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They're dating someone and they're scared that if they share how they feel, they may push the other person away. Talk to me about that.
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Number one, it's a valid fear.
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I'm not going to say that that fear isn't valid.
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I think anybody here that go, "Well, that's really understandable. What if they don't?"
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It's always the what if they do. Well, okay.
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Let's Let's assume that they do. What happens next?
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If they do, you push them away. What happens?
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It's It's seeing that your life isn't going to fall apart.
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Now, if I come in into the conversation and I am not trying to sugarcoat it and if I'm not trying to make it to where I'm only saying things to placate you to to make you feel good and not being genuine, I've already set up the conversation and I've set up the relationship on fake.
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I'm just giving you a mask.
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I'm giving you a character of what I can tell is going to appease you.
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I'm going to be the the hero.
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I'm going to be the fixer.
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I'm going to be the happy one.
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I'm going to be the one who's always bubbly and can never be sad and you you give them a character when you choose not to be authentic in the conversation.
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So, the thought of you know, if I do this, I'm going to push them away.
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And if you do, what happens?
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That's really what the fear is. Am I enough by myself?
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That's That's the underlying fear.
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When you realize I can be enough without them, all those fears go away. Mhm.
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Yeah, that's what we're all working towards, I feel, is >> Yeah. Am I enough? Am I enough? And it's so interesting.
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That's exactly I was talking to that person and I said, you know, after you have that conversation whether you choose not to, I think self-love needs to be worked on either way because >> That's right.
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that that's at the root of it. What What do you feel?
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You've been doing this for some time.
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You come from the legal world.
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What's the number one communication mistake you see people making today?
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>> [laughter] >> The one that I make, too, is it you think that what is said is exactly what's heard.
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Especially in That's good. in relationships.
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How many times in a relationship have they kind of repeated back what you said?
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Well, you said, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I said.
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Well, I didn't sound like that.
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That's not how I said it."
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And when you start arguing, they go, "Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did."
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And they go, "I wish I had this recorded.
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You know, I I wish this I had this on camera that you could have seen back how you just spoke to me.
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And instead we just we start fighting over how I said it.
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The better way to go is to say, "What did you hear?"
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"What did What did you hear?"
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Oh, okay, that's that's not at all what I meant.
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Can I Can I have a Let me Let me redo that.
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That's not at all what I meant.
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Instead we just we split the conversation into something that has nothing to do with what you the original source.
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So, the number one communication that fault that I see is assuming that what is said is exactly what is heard.
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When you ask the question, "What did you hear?"
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whether it's even in business or in relationships, you always get a different perspective that makes the connection that much stronger.
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That is such a great answer.
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It's such a great answer.
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I did that Me and my wife did that exact >> [laughter] >> No, we didn't do the exercise as consciously, but we went through that same exact thing recently.
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We were working out in the gym together.
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We were having a conversation.
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We heard each other totally differently, misjudged tones.
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I was like being loud because there was music on.
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She took that as like I was a bit like, you know, uh a bit triggered or whatever it was.
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And then we sat down and we talked about it.
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And that's exactly the conversation we had where I was like, "I did not sound like >> [laughter] >> And she was like, "Yeah, you did."
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Like, you know, and she And you know, and then you And then you realize that you're so right.
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You end up splitting the conversation and you end up arguing about something that you weren't even arguing about. >> Yes.
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And that's the worst part because you end up creating something that is now an issue that wasn't even an issue in the first place. Absolutely.
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And it ends up that you will prove yourself wrong.
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I mean, when you say, "No, this is exactly how I said it."
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We don't even really know what our face looks like >> [laughter] >> you know, when we're talking unless you're in a mirror the whole time. You you don't know.
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And so we we are terrible judges of our subjective expressions.
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They say, "No, I That's not how I said it.
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No, I That's not what I That's not how I said it.
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And they're like, yes, you did.
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Yeah, and so that that is to me it's If you want to know somebody that has strong emotional intelligence, it's how quick they get to asking for a reset.
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How quick they get to saying that's not my intention. My intention was this.
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Yeah, okay, I can see that.
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The quicker that you get to that, that's somebody who says I'm okay being wrong.
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What does it take for someone who always thinks they're right to open up to the idea that they might be wrong?
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The person in front of you isn't fighting you.
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They're fighting to be understood by you.
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They're fighting to feel understood by you.
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When somebody's clamped up and you have to say, you need to change your opinion.
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You need to change your opinion. You're right, I'm wrong.
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That's not going to happen.
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You can't just wish for that.
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Instead, if I were to say to you, listen, I'm not here to change your mind, Jay. This is what I believe.
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You hear how just me saying that all of a sudden opens up that curiosity of well, maybe I do want to change my mind. I don't really know.
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But if I were to say, how how can you possibly think that?
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You You really think that that person is the person you should be voting for?
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You think that And as soon as I get into criticism, the more I tell you that you're wrong, the more convinced you'll be that you're right.
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Because most likely, if I want you to change your mind, and I say that you're wrong about something, Jay, I'm not just saying you're wrong, I'm saying that your wife is wrong, your dad's wrong, your parents are wrong, your grandmother is wrong.
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That thing that you went to when you were a kid that was a big crystallizing moment in your life that that set your belief system is all wrong.
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And it's become part of your identity.
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And so So, of me fighting I think I'm fighting an opinion, I'm not.
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I'm fighting now your identity.
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And people will go to the ends of the earth.
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They will close off everything.
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They will box their ears to prevent having to change one second of their identity. Why?
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Because that change feels extremely scary.
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That's why evidence doesn't work.
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When you show people statistics on things, how can you possibly believe this?
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And they go, I I just no, it doesn't matter. It They will justify it. They will flip it.
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They will find find ways to to take what supports them or reject anything that that doesn't.
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It's because it's now part of their I identity.
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So, if you want to change somebody's mind, number one, you have to validate them.
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Two, you can't argue against their identity.
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You have to argue against the value.
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You have to find the value. Speak to the value.
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And three, understand that one conversation is generally not enough.
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If you want somebody to change their mind, it takes years. It takes months.
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And the bigger the belief, the more time it's going to take. Mhm.
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Yeah, I I I couldn't agree more.
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I think I'm sure you hear this a lot as well.
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I hear a lot of people, especially people who would read our books, listen to our conversations, follow us on social media.
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A lot of people want to have conversations with their partners or their parents or a sibling, but they don't find that that person wants to communicate about that topic or theme or subject. >> Yeah.
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So, how do we communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with us?
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Because often that could be our partner, our parent, or someone that we love deeply. Yeah.
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And we want to talk to them about something meaningful, but they don't really even want to engage. Is it possible? It's possible.
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I get a lot of questions of people who are estranged from usually adult children.
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There's you know, their 30-year-old son doesn't want to talk to his mom.
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Or a uh who doesn't want to talk to her dad, and they haven't spoken in 3 years.
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And every time I have that kind of conversation, it it breaks my heart because you can tell and look at this parent, they want to have a conversation with their child.
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And you know deep down, so does that that child, they need that relationship.
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How do you How do you crack that code?
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What I have found most successful and what I teach them is I begin with saying, "I know I'm not and I'm open." And it sounds like this.
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"I know there's distance between us.
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I know things aren't how we both want them to be. I know I've messed up."
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Whatever that is, I You're saying what is a given. Two is I'm not.
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I'm not asking you change your mind.
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I'm not asking for an apology.
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I'm not asking for whatever it is.
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What they think that's what you're after. And three is I'm open.
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I'm open to a conversation.
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I'm open and I'm I'm open to listening.
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I'm open and I'm open to understanding.
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Whenever you can just crack the door open of saying the conversation is here.
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And sometimes that's not enough.
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They're not going to do it.
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And in that case, what I like to say is then you have to live out the conversation and understand that if you can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse.
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And I if I if they don't want to come across to me and they burn the bridge, well, then they're at least going to know where I am.
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And they're going to know what I stand for and they're going to see the light that I I'm going to try to bring even if they don't want to talk. I know I'm not I'm open. Yeah. I really like that. Yeah.
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I I really really like that. Especially the I'm not. Right, exactly.
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>> like that's such an important one because I feel like half the time it's like I know I know we're not where we want to be, but I'd love it if you You got it. Yeah, exactly.
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They're waiting for the you know, I know there's distance, but you just you know, and they're expecting Who's going to apologize first? Yeah.
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I think that that for relationships and family, you know, the hard stuff, it becomes this petty fight over well, I'm not doing anything till they apologize.
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And well, okay, you do it at your own peril.
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Then then say goodbye to it.
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Say goodbye to it because they both dug in their heels and nobody's going to change unless somebody decides to do something different.
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And when you can just change the narrative by 1% and say, I'm going to go off on a limb and do something different.
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I've seen more relationships come back together.
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I've seen more people come back and say, "Thank you so much.
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I We're actually going to meet up for coffee.
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She's coming to Christmas this year. Oh my gosh."
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I That What What is life not about if not that?
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I really hope everyone who's listening and watching, you know, tries that out. You do that so well.
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You know, I've seen that with You'll say, "When's the last time you talked to somebody?" Grab your phone. Call them. Call them now. Yeah. Call them now. Why Why wait?
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Would you Would you have to wait to be ready? Call them now.
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And when you choose to do something different, you choose to be the first.
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They say, "Oh, I You know, I'm tired of being the bigger person."
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Well, that's that's life.
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And you then you then you do it with the understanding that things are not going to be different unless something is different. Yeah.
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Yeah, I always I always come back to what is the outcome that I want. Yeah.
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Like if the outcome I want is for this person to know how I feel, then I might have to be the bigger person.
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I might have to be first. Mhm.
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I might have to be apologetic.
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I might have to be more compassionate. >> Mhm.
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But if that serves my ultimate goal, which is this person knows how I feel, then I should be willing to become anything. That's right.
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But if my goal is to set a boundary and not let someone cross it, Right.
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then I may actually even have to become more guarded.
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I may have to become more reserved.
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I may have to I'll have to become all these other things.
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And then you say, "Oh, but I don't want to be reserved."
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But it's like, "But that serves your goal." Absolutely.
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>> And And so, you've got to know what your objective is or what your what your goal is of any conversation.
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I know you talk about how winning is never the goal of any argument, even though that's what we all think.
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Yeah, especially being an an attorney, people are like, "Isn't that what you're supposed to do?"
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And it's like, that's just not the That's not the truth.
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It It's not like it is on the TV. You You will lose cases.
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In fact, if you haven't tried If you haven't lost a case, you haven't tried enough cases is what they say in the in the attorney world.
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Because I can't I can't choose the law that applies.
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I can't choose my client's facts.
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You have to play the cards that that you're dealt, but how I advocate it is different.
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What I teach is arguments are not something to win, they're something to unravel.
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You find knots in conversations.
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In law, there's this thing called the jury instructions, meaning at the very end of the trial, let's say you've you've had 2 weeks' worth of evidence.
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You had openings, all all your your motions, and you're finally at the end, and the jury's about to go back and make a decision on something.
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They have a document called the jury instructions.
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And it's written out who's responsible.
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This person, this person. They do this, yes or no.
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They add percentages, they might add money, whatever it is.
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It is this document that controls the ultimate outcome of the entire case.
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And good attorneys start with the jury instructions when they first get a new file.
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Bad attorneys wait till the very end.
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Same way in relationships.
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Like you mentioned, if I know where the goal is, everything else becomes fluff.
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Everything else becomes irrelevant.
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So what if they said that thing 2 years ago that you could bring up?
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So what if they, you know, said it a way that they rolled their eyes?
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Can Can you have a little bit more emotional resilience to understand what's happening in that moment, to not be clouded by the forest I mean, you the trees through the forest to be able to see what's happening in real life.
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So, start with your end, have a goal for the conversation.
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And and make sure if I if I could say with you, let's say you and I are off and I say, Jay, I I I know we're about to have a difficult conversation and I want you to know I'm going to be in it here with you.
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I mean, how encouraged do you feel of knowing I'm not trying to abandon you in it.
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I'm not trying to push something at you.
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And when you are able to slow it down and see arguments as not something to win, but something to unravel, you find so much more in the connection.
19:47
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21:23
If [snorts] you've been with someone for long enough, they're going to end up saying something that will trigger you.
21:28
Or that will Undoubtedly.
21:31
If you've been with someone for someone long enough.
21:33
>> When your partner says something that triggers you, Mhm. what do you do?
21:37
You tell them in a way that communicates it that it sinks in.
21:40
If something is said to me by Sierra and it it triggers me, one is there is a mindset to me in in any relationship that you have to have that says, "This is a place where I can be messy.
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This is a place where I don't have to be my best.
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Of all the places to be, this should be the safest for me."
22:03
Now, if it's intentional, this person meant to trigger you, then what I like to do is ask the question, "Did you mean Did you mean for that to upset me?
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Did you mean for that to hurt me?"
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You you find out real quick if they really did, because sometimes people say things they they don't mean.
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Not sometimes, they always do. You know?
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And if you find that you you can't even slow down enough to have the discussion of this is what hurt me, you know that this triggers me.
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I think there's also a difference of if they know that it does.
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And they're using it as a weapon.
22:35
Well, that breaches trust versus they didn't know it and now you need to explain why this this reminds you of that time when you were a kid that is setting you off and you're not really sure how to how to deal with it.
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So, when it comes to being triggered, you first have to slow everything down.
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Means I'm going to talk slower.
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I'm going to lower my volume rather than getting amped up.
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And I'm going to let them know that something else is coming up for me more than what you said.
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And if you're in a committed relationship that they want to understand you, that's a conversation you're going to have.
23:10
And I think the natural reaction when someone says something that triggers us is either to say something that triggers them back even if it was unconscious in the first place or we kind of rush to defend ourselves.
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Which seem like very natural human instincts.
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How do we build that slowness, that patience, that stillness that's required to actually create connection as opposed to do the human thing which is defend ourselves and prove our worth and show we're right.
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How do how do we even get into that pocket?
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Your first word has to be your breath in those moments.
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When somebody says something we don't like, we >> [snorts] >> and we get up like that.
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We we suck it in but we don't let it out.
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Instead our our breath comes out when we're yelling or raising our voice.
23:57
When when you start to yell and somebody says you're yelling and you go, "I'm not yelling."
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Because you know deep down that's exactly what you're doing.
24:03
If you find that you don't know how to slow it down, it's your breath.
24:08
Your breath always comes first so that you can actually breathe.
24:15
And there's a difference between if you say something that's hurtful and I immediately go, "Me? Okay, Jake. What about you?
24:22
You You don't remember that time that you You really want to You're going to That's That's rich. That's funny.
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You You want to say this to me?"
24:27
And I start right at you.
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Versus if I give it five to seven seconds of nothing.
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Meaning I'm going to breathe and I'm just going to let your words fall to the ground.
24:41
As if I go, "You sure you're good with that? That That what you said?
24:44
Is that what you really want to say?"
24:46
Because people don't like to hear their their words echo in that silence.
24:51
I've seen it countless times where the person who you the hurtful thing and you know what?
24:55
I've been that person, too.
24:58
Where you say or they say, I I I shouldn't have said that.
25:02
Before you have to say anything, I what I what I meant to say was or or that that was too far.
25:09
That's allowing you to look more controlled and more confident in that conversation.
25:17
And all of a sudden, when it's like this instead of it slowly begins like this, just by the silence of understanding hearing their words echo back withdraws that that sting.
25:27
It does It never stings as bad.
25:29
Yeah, I like the uh like your breath become your first word. That's great. Yeah.
25:33
And it's such a it feels like again, it keeps going back to that idea of if you think every conversation and you write about this right at the beginning of the book, if you think every conversation is about winning and about being right, the goal is so skewed. Yeah.
25:50
That you can't possibly take a breath because to you, you're just losing. Right.
25:55
Like a breath is just losing time, it's losing >> Yes.
25:59
energy, it's losing momentum, it's it's just losing.
26:01
And so again, it goes back down to how do we need to really reframe our mindset to say not every conversation is about winning and being right.
26:10
Conversations are about understanding and seeing someone and connecting and finding a common ground and it's just not how we're wired.
26:16
No, it's it's not how we're wired. It takes discipline.
26:21
It takes real discipline.
26:24
When I hear people take a breath before they respond, I know what's about to come out is has a much more heavy Mhm. footing to it.
26:34
If you were to just ask me, you know, how was your day? Or how you doing? I'm like, good. I'm good. I'm great. Everything's good.
26:41
And I have that quick response.
26:41
And if you instead were to ask me, how's your day? And I went I'm good. Yeah, I'm good.
26:51
Now, what's the difference? Same thing. I just I use my breath. I slowed it down.
26:58
I calm my nervous system, and as a secondary benefit, I also calm down yours.
27:04
And so, most of the time, when you feel that rise coming, you have to slow down the conversation.
27:10
So, that that To me, the hotter the fire burns, the more you have to to spread out the coals, because it's slowing it down, even asking Can we Can we slow this down for a second?
27:21
Can I take a a moment just to I'm I'm here with you.
27:25
I just need a second to to think.
27:26
What follows after is never how it sounded before.
27:30
If your partner's giving you the silent treatment, how do you engage?
27:37
Depends if the silent treatment is there for a reason.
27:39
Some people you you kind of have to do the the the gray rock on.
27:44
That they're You can't be You can't reason with them.
27:46
So, I'm not saying that silent treatment is is not there for a good reason sometimes.
27:50
But, let's say it's there to hurt you.
27:54
There are people who will use silence as a punishment.
27:55
They They're upset, you did something, and they just go, "Oh, okay, I'm just not going to talk to you anymore."
28:03
That to me is the number one sign of low emotional intelligence.
28:09
Is if you can't even have the ability to say, "I need to take a break for a second, because that really upset me.
28:20
I'll text you this afternoon. I'll text you tomorrow. I'll call you tomorrow." versus just ghosting.
28:25
Just Because what it does is it puts the other person in position of trying to beg, trying to plead.
28:34
And then what happens to that other person, they desperately want you to communicate. So, what do they do?
28:37
Most of the time, they say something super flagrant, like a bad foul.
28:40
They They say something that is really harsh.
28:45
Just in hopes that you come back in. That That's it.
28:48
They just want that text back. Okay, he's still there. He still reads my text. He still whatever it is.
28:54
And so if you really are somebody who's you're trying to get through the silent treatment, respond to, I see that you're giving me the silent treatment.
29:01
I see that you've gone quiet on me.
29:02
I'm going to give you space.
29:04
I'm ready to have the conversation when you are.
29:07
Now there's a difference of somebody taking an hour to get back with you.
29:11
Taking 5 days to get back with you, well that's something different.
29:15
That's That's somebody who has chosen not to be connected.
29:17
Because if I really want a conversation with you or a real relationship with you, I'm not going to put you in the position of begging. Mhm.
29:25
That's such a great note.
29:28
That if someone wants to be in a relationship with you, they'll never put you in a position of begging. Never.
29:34
They'll They'll always stay interested.
29:35
You know, it's it's like we've For people who are married, let's say, or in a big relationship, it starts with me being very interested in you.
29:43
I'm going to want to know your favorite color.
29:45
I'm going to want to know what you like to eat, what you like to wear.
29:48
I want to know about your your family.
29:49
I want to know all these things about you. I'm so interested. Why?
29:53
Because I want to understand you.
29:53
And then we get happy and then we just it becomes a measure of how good can I feel with you in the good.
30:02
And then you get married and it's better It's for better or worse, right?
30:06
And then you just realize I don't really like this worse part.
30:09
I really I really just like the better part.
30:11
And all of a sudden you realize that things get hard and you're in year seven of your marriage, in year 14 of your marriage, and you feel further drifted apart cuz really you became less interested >> Yeah. in them.
30:24
You didn't get interested in the hard.
30:26
You were just interested in what was the basics.
30:29
You were good with the basic facts.
30:31
You weren't good for the the deep stuff.
30:36
You were It gets to be where if you really want to know and test the strength of a relationship, it's not the measure of how good do I feel in the good times.
30:50
It's how long can I sit with them in the hard times.
30:54
And when I can sit with you and what is the deep struggle when we're both crying, when we're both 3 hours into the argument and going, "I don't understand why I can't communicate with you.
31:04
I I don't How did I ever like you in the first place?" That's real. That's raw.
31:11
And if I can still sit with you in it, that that's a type of connection that that will last forever.
31:15
It's you know, I I talk to so many couples and even older couples of, you know, how do you how do you do it with communicating?
31:24
How do you How do you do communication so well?
31:28
It's never "We have really big conversations."
31:34
>> [laughter] >> You know, it's never that.
31:34
It's "We know that things are going to be hard and we choose to stick through the hard."
31:41
People give up too easily.
31:44
I mean, you you're married, I'm married. It's they're a fight.
31:48
They they are an absolute fight.
31:48
Not between each other, but for the relationship.
31:52
It's the relationship versus everything else.
31:56
Attention, time, obligations, finances, kids.
32:00
It's the relationship versus everybody else.
32:03
Is there anything someone can ever say that shows you they're not your person? I don't care about you.
32:16
If they really don't have an interest in caring about you.
32:18
If If you hear that I'm upset or you hear that your wife's upset, you should care.
32:22
I'm not talking about the surface level like, "Okay, I don't care about that right now."
32:26
I'm talking about the deep it does not affect me.
32:31
When you're on the ground and upset and face on the floor and you're crying and it doesn't affect you because you don't care, that to me is they're not your they're not your person.
32:46
If you want to know if somebody is your person, have they asked how you're doing?
32:49
I've seen so many people go on dates or have relationships, and they say, "Yeah, they they were nice, but I don't think they ever really asked about me."
33:00
They just talked about themselves as they just needed a, you know, rent-an-ear for a little bit because they just made it all about themselves.
33:10
Those are people that you know are not going to be your people.
33:11
If you want to know if they are your person, you don't have to ask them, "Why don't you ask about me?"
33:21
They will naturally want to know more about you. You don't have to ask.
33:24
I just one time where she uh uh woman asked me, you know, "I went on a date, and he really didn't uh ask about me, you know, that much.
33:34
I'm not really sure what to do."
33:35
I said, "Don't go on another date."
33:38
>> [laughter] >> I was like, "If if they're not going to just ask about you in the basics, uh how could they ever want to know about you when things are hard, when they will be hard?
33:47
There's no getting uh getting around it. It they will be hard.
33:53
That's That's how you know if they they are your person.
33:56
They're willing to have the deep, hard conversation."
33:58
How do you know if your relationship just has so many arguments that it's beyond saving?
34:06
How do you know that it's gone too far?
34:08
When you look back, and the other person is 10 miles behind you. Explain that.
34:15
When you're doing it alone.
34:15
That you've read all the books, you've read all the materials, you're listening to all the podcasts.
34:20
You might be listening to this episode and going, "I desperately want to heal my marriage, my relationship.
34:25
I don't know what to do."
34:28
Because most likely they're the only ones with an oar in their hand trying to paddle and the other person is just in the back with their arms folded.
34:36
I don't really I don't want to be here.
34:38
Does it not bother you that we are in conflict right now?
34:43
I mean I don't I don't really care. It's really your fault.
34:44
And they feel like they're the only ones that are there.
34:48
These people that it doesn't matter what technique you do.
34:51
It doesn't matter how much you push.
34:53
They are someone that will never try and reach for you.
34:59
So, how do you know when it's enough that you've put out your hand and they're unwilling to take it?
35:06
And you just look back in the rearview mirror and they're okay with leaving it.
35:12
Yeah, and [clears throat] I think the hard part is someone else's people show these glimpses of or rays of hope and then you believe that and then they go back to being the way they were. Yeah.
35:23
And they kind of oscillate between showing you they care momentarily but then going back to not caring and it's so hard to know which one to invest in and which one to believe. Mhm.
35:37
I think the the more honest of a conversation you can have with that person Yeah.
35:40
the more honest reflection of what kind of relationship you have.
35:43
Like we talked about at the beginning, Jay, if if I can't have the hard conversation with you, then how deep is our relationship?
35:52
You know, if look look at the relationship itself.
35:56
Is it if it's only surface level conversations, I'll show you a surface level relationship.
36:01
But if you're willing to have the hard talks, I can show you a much deeper relationship.
36:06
What's your capacity for the difficult?
36:08
And yeah, people will show you the glimpses in conversation of oh, there's that person.
36:13
There's that person that I I like and then it's gone.
36:15
Well, that's because it's it's only a side effect.
36:19
It's it's not the main symptom. Yeah.
36:21
They are they're only putting on the show to keep you entertained.
36:26
They are It's like a slot machine and uh they just want to keep you addicted just for a little bit longer.
36:34
And you have to look back and go, "What am I What am I getting from this in real time?
36:39
What am I truly getting from this?
36:41
Am I Am I enough just by myself?" Mhm.
36:42
I think that's the deeper issue of feeling, "If I don't have this person, who am I?" Yeah.
36:48
And that's why we don't say how we feel, it's why we mold who we are, it's why we tolerate bad behavior and bad words and bad communication because we don't feel like we're fulfilled without them. Yeah.
37:01
>> So, we'd rather have a painful existence with them than a potentially painful or long-term non-painful existence without them. >> Mhm.
37:10
And I appreciate what you're saying because it shows that there are real ramifications and consequences to poor communication. Yeah.
37:18
Because I think a lot of us will just tolerate and elongate those periods hoping things will just get better or go away, but the reality is that people don't change their communication patterns that quickly. Yeah.
37:33
And that's a harsh reality, it's a harsh truth.
37:37
Things don't change if things don't change.
37:39
You know, I know that when you have those moments where you go, "I I wish things were were different in our communication."
37:49
Yeah, it takes That takes time.
37:51
That takes real raw vulnerability.
37:54
It is my belief that that love is self-disclosure.
38:00
If I really want you to know me, I'm going to disclose everything.
38:02
And if I want to know you, I need you to disclose everything.
38:07
I need radical honesty in this relationship to know that I'm never going to be too much. They need to know.
38:13
My wife needs to know she's never going to be too much.
38:17
And when you can create that element of safety in conversation, you you create a relationship that can be impenetrable to anything from the outside.
38:26
When things get stressful and stuff and that tension, you kind of bond together, right?
38:33
But if there's a source in between you and you can't address it, if you can't take care of that, it's it's never the outside in, it's always the inside out that that ruins you. Yeah.
38:42
Yeah, you made you made me think of a moment where sometimes if we're if we're doing an interview or maybe even if we're talking or talking to a friend and my wife and someone will ask us about a relationship and my wife was someone who's like, "Oh, I can be a lot."
38:55
Like she as in she's talking about herself.
38:58
She'd be like, "Oh, I can be a lot.
38:58
I can be too much sometimes."
38:59
And my honest reaction is you are not a lot at all.
39:04
Uh and and she'll be like, "No, no, I can't."
39:06
And now now we're getting into an argument.
39:08
>> [laughter] >> And I'm like, "Well, no, you're not." She's like, "Yes, I am."
39:10
And I'm like, "No, you're not."
39:11
And and it reminds me because it's it's that same thing like I appreciate her because I don't think she's a lot.
39:17
Like there's there's not a moment where I'm like, "Oh, you're you're being too much." >> Right.
39:22
Because you're right, I want her to be herself with me. >> Yes.
39:26
What with what she's going through and trust that she can share that and express that.
39:32
>> That's how you know that they're your person. >> Yeah. Yeah.
39:35
>> When they're not too much >> Yeah. for you. Yeah.
39:38
>> You know, you have capacity for all the range of everything that they are, will be, and what they have to offer.
39:44
You know, their strengths as well as their weaknesses, especially the weaknesses because you and I, we have many. Yeah, of course.
39:53
Yeah, so you so you're saying that if if you don't have the capacity to handle all of someone, then they may not be right for you and you may not be right for them. That's exactly right.
40:01
If there is a mismatch in capacity to deal with the messy, right?
40:08
As they say, you can't if you can't be with me in my hard times, then you don't deserve me at the best, right?
40:15
That's absolutely true, especially in conversations.
40:19
>> If I can't have the the grace, the capacity by you for me to say the wrong thing, and you realize that I did say the wrong thing, and there's a place for me to apologize.
40:29
I mean, repair has to happen. Yeah. Repair has to happen.
40:32
So, that's it's on me to do that.
40:35
Now, if I know that I don't have the capacity in that moment to absorb everything that is happening, that's that's not going to to work.
40:44
It's not It's not for lack of love. It's a lack of capacity.
40:49
What should a healthy repair conversation look like?
40:50
So, if you're going to repair with someone cuz you said something you don't mean, or someone's going to repair with you saying something because they said something they don't mean, what should that conversation sound like from their end or yours based on who did the mistake?
41:06
99% of the time, our arguments are not what we're arguing about.
41:09
They are about the hidden need.
41:13
The need to feel understood, the need to feel heard, need to feel safe by that other person.
41:21
And things go so south when I pick up the frustration, or I pick up the reaction, and not listening to the need.
41:30
Every one of us, ourselves included, we go into conversations with these hidden fears of am I enough? Mhm.
41:37
Am I enough if I get it wrong?
41:39
Am I enough if I look scared, or I don't know what to do, or I don't know what to say, or uh will I be abandoned?
41:46
Are they not going to want me?
41:47
Or do they not really care?
41:47
We we come in every single time to one of these conversations.
41:51
And [snorts] if I'm just responding to the reaction, rather than addressing the need, there's always going to be a mismatch.
41:57
There's always going to be conflict that is now corrosive to the very fabric of the conversation.
42:04
Like, say for example, in in a relationship, somebody goes, "Do you even Do you even care?" Like, I don't even know. "Do you even care?
42:11
And what does the guy like oh, this again? Really? Do I care?
42:15
Like okay, this okay, this is so stupid.
42:18
And what you're doing you're tearing the very fabric of the relationship when you are dismissive over how there's a real feeling.
42:25
So when somebody is sharing that kind of question with you and you treat them as if that question is real because it is, you change everything. How do you model repair?
42:38
That you model it by saying, I can totally see how you'd think that.
42:40
I can see how you'd be frustrated.
42:43
You know, if if that's the way you heard it, I I don't blame you for being upset about it.
42:49
Of course you'd be upset about that.
42:51
It sounds like that sounds really frustrating. That sounds scary.
42:55
I get the feeling you you feel really hopeless right now.
42:59
And it's like yes, that is exactly how I'm feeling.
43:02
You just you you want somebody to understand how you're doing.
43:07
I don't need to agree with you to understand you.
43:11
I don't need to fix the problem to meet the need.
43:13
I just need to slow down long enough to put aside the frustration and the reaction and see the wound.
43:18
It's so clear that if we simply went into every conversation or the next conversation just trying to understand, how much would be solved? Yeah.
43:29
Because like you said, everyone's just trying to get you to understand them whether they're shouting there's that beautiful statement that I love from Russell Barkley where he said that the people that need the most love will ask for it in the most unloving ways. >> That's right.
43:46
It's it's slowing down the moment to say, what do they need right now that they don't have the words to ask for?
43:55
What are they asking for that they don't have the words to say?
43:59
And when I can stop and say, what is happening here?
44:02
You think like I have we have two kids, all right, seven and five.
44:04
And when my son, seven, was I say three, right?
44:06
And And if he was crying, yelling, throwing something, yelling no, uh throwing a fit, you think I was going, I cannot believe that you're raising your voice right now. Are you kidding? You're crying at me.
44:21
Can you I I like, you Do you not see all the things I'm doing?
44:25
No, I go, oh, he's hungry. He's upset. He's scared.
44:28
You know, he's he's sleepy. It's It's his bedtime. It's the same thing.
44:33
It's the same basic human needs in every single one of us.
44:36
It is I will shout it to the rooftop.
44:38
They are not fighting you.
44:40
They are fighting to feel understood by you.
44:43
And when you can address that understanding by using words of repair, everything changes. Repair, validation.
44:54
Validation is not weakness. It is repair.
44:58
And that That's the measure of a true relationship.
45:00
How quick can I get to repair?
45:05
Relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure.
45:07
They fall apart because of the hundred micro moments where repair could have happened, but it didn't. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. These little cracks. Yeah. That >> fissures.
45:20
It's the paper cuts that You go five years, 10 years, 30 years, and you look back and go, but there's just been so much.
45:27
How can I possibly address it?
45:29
There wasn't some big moment.
45:31
It's all these little moments for repair that you just chose to to go by.
45:36
That's why every single one is is truly important.
45:39
So, when you get dismissive and go, really? This? Oh, here we go again. Here she goes.
45:45
You're just you're choosing to not repair.
45:48
And if you understand and sign can sign your name to a piece of paper that says, I'm choosing my frustration over her peace. Sign your name to it.
45:56
If you can sign that with a straight face and give it to her, then congratulations.
46:03
You've you've lost the relationship.
46:05
That's what That's what you're doing.
46:07
You're signing your name away to the end of it.
46:08
I wanted to talk a bit about parenting because you mentioned it earlier with estranged family members and things like that.
46:14
One of the biggest interactions people experience with their parents is feeling judged.
46:21
So, a lot of the communication that parents have if people don't have great relationships or even if they do is judgment.
46:27
Like it may even be in their tone.
46:29
Oh, did you see what so-and-so's doing?
46:31
Like they just you know, got married or they got a new promotion or or it may just be like, "Oh, are you you still with that same guy?"
46:37
Like are you you know, and it's And I think this feeling of judgment is the opposite of understanding.
46:44
When you judge someone, it's saying, "I already know you.
46:48
I I'm already seeing you a certain way and I'm not going to let you show me who you are." Right.
46:52
I'm projecting my viewpoint onto you. So, it's so hard. Right.
46:58
And people struggle to communicate that with their parents cuz we say things like, "Well, will you just leave me to do my thing?
47:03
And will you just stop like you know?"
47:05
And then the parent goes, "Hey, I'm just trying to look out for you.
47:07
I'm trying to do what's best for you."
47:08
And you're like, "Yeah, well how do we set boundaries with people that we love and we know love us, but we can't keep feeling that judgment?
47:19
Different level of boundaries that need to be applied.
47:23
One is the boundary of time and space.
47:27
If it's something that's really bad, I'm not going to be at the family reunion for 4 hours.
47:31
I'm going to go, say hi, and leave when I need to leave. Distance is okay.
47:35
>> Yeah, distance is okay if that's what's required for you.
47:37
Certain topics of conversation not going to be in the cards for you, and that's okay.
47:42
Second is at least if you can acknowledge that for parents now that I am one, judgment is a poor way of showing love and care.
47:56
That's That's the deeper rooted feeling is I I desperately want to make sure you're okay.
48:01
I desperately >> Say that again cuz that is so good.
48:05
The judgment is a very poor substitute for love and care because that's the deeper need.
48:13
Well, shouldn't you you know, you you really should do this. You really should do it.
48:15
Haven't you seen what so-and-so is doing?
48:17
It's it's deep care for you and how you are even though it's it's what they would want.
48:25
It doesn't mean that matches what you want.
48:26
That's that's the major riff right there is if you can set aside what they're saying and instead hear the value.
48:35
So, let's apply this to the same framework.
48:37
Rather than responding to what we are interpreting as the judgment and instead we respond to the value, the need, the care, the love for you.
48:52
All of a sudden our response becomes different.
48:56
So, if let's say somebody brings something up at a family dinner that [snorts] you know is just it's it's a time bomb.
49:05
They just they've now exposed us.
49:06
Okay, I guess we're having this conversation.
49:08
Okay, everybody I guess we're having this conversation now. Right?
49:10
Instead of that you use the framework of I can tell blank is important to you.
49:17
And insert that blank into whatever category you talk about.
49:20
I can tell that my well-being is very important to you.
49:22
I can tell that the kids and how I raise the kids is really important to you.
49:28
Yeah, I I can tell that the kids are important to you.
49:30
I I can tell that my financial my security, my is important to you.
49:38
And all of a sudden what they were judging about kind of goes away.
49:42
I mean, mothers will worry you to death.
49:45
They wouldn't be a mother if they didn't.
49:48
Yeah, I mean, they wouldn't be doing their job so to speak, right?
49:51
They They say that the hardest thing about parents is is that they had parents.
49:59
And maybe wish Maybe they wish deep down that their parents cared.
50:04
They wish their mom or dad had been as invested as they are.
50:07
Now, what What is different is when that judgment turns to demands and turns It sours the relationship.
50:16
Instead of them giving you the grace to make decisions, I think part of love of a parent is you have to allow them to make mistakes.
50:24
And then then then you do everything else for them.
50:26
And maybe with parents it's it's the fear of not being relied upon anymore.
50:33
I know I have to just let this thing float in the water and I I can't ever control it.
50:37
Again, that's very scary.
50:40
Maybe instead of being so upset about their judgment, you see it as something of Well, maybe they're feeling They don't know who they are anymore without having somebody to take care of.
50:50
And maybe I just need to speak to that.
50:52
Mom, Dad, hey, thank you for everything that you've poured into me.
50:58
And you when you speak to you've done everything that you can And I know that you've done the best that you that you can.
51:04
Imagine the kind of conversations that can happen because most of the time when they in my experience, when parents are nitpicking, really what they're asking for is for you to fulfill the touch, that deeper connection of I'm not doing enough for my child. >> Mhm.
51:22
And so, when you can say, "You're a good mom.
51:25
Hey, you're a great dad."
51:27
And remind them of that, I think the conversation's always going to go better.
51:31
I love that, and I hear people feeling like it can just be so exhausting to have to translate whatever one is saying >> Yeah.
51:40
in an emotionally mature way, and then respond to them, almost parenting them. Oh, no doubt. >> But Yeah.
51:47
what you're saying is true that yes, it's exhausting. Yes, it takes time. Yes, it takes effort.
51:53
But what's on the other side is so much more worthy than continuing to do what we're all doing right now, which isn't getting anywhere and isn't going anywhere.
52:04
Yeah, I I I definitely subscribe to the mindset of what is good is worth whatever it takes. >> Mhm.
52:11
And if it if it's not, then it's then it's not.
52:13
You might hear what I said and go look Jefferson and yeah, more power to you, man. That sounds exhausting.
52:19
I always have to do this with my parents.
52:20
I'm not saying every time.
52:22
There are certain times where no, you need to get in get out. >> Yeah.
52:26
>> They they bring up that topic and my favorite to use is maybe so. Yeah.
52:31
>> I use the phrase maybe so all the time.
52:33
You they give me a piece of advice or something or you maybe it's a stranger, whoever it's yeah, maybe so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:39
It has a way of just diffusing everything.
52:41
You you've acknowledged what they said. You heard it. I didn't argue with it. >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, maybe so. Maybe maybe so. Yeah.
52:51
>> It has a way of just uh it diffusing it and now they feel like oh, okay, well, I said what I needed to say and then I'm I'm good. Yeah.
52:58
Yeah, I wish I had that one back in the day.
52:59
I remember with my extended family, they'd always be telling me that I told them I decided to become a monk and I'd always hear this.
53:05
It's the worst decision you're ever going to make.
53:07
It's the you know, and I and I'd always just say, you're right. Yeah, probably.
53:11
>> Yeah, preface it with >> But I wish I said maybe so. It's a good one.
53:13
Because I didn't want to agree with them, but that's all I had in my vocabulary then. >> Yeah, yeah.
53:19
I'd be like, yeah, you're right. Maybe you're right.
53:20
Like, you know, but I like maybe so a lot. That's good.
53:22
>> Yeah, maybe so always works.
53:22
I I also like I'd rather I'd rather hear about you. Yeah.
53:27
>> [laughter] >> That's good, too.
53:28
>> I use that one a lot and uh anytime the dinner table might turn a little bit more political, I say, you know, I'd rather hear about you. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:35
Nobody ever shies away from talking about themselves.
53:38
>> Yeah, yeah, [laughter] yeah. Yeah.
53:38
How do you you talked about sometimes distance, sometimes not engaging.
53:41
How do you say no without feeling guilty?
53:46
Because I think the challenge we have is a lot of us want to say no, but then we feel bad for saying no.
53:50
We think this person gave me so much.
53:52
They are trying, they're caring, and then we talk ourselves out of it, but then we just walk into a trap almost or walk into a and then we go, "Oh, I knew that was going to happen. I should have said no."
54:03
So, how do you say no without feeling guilty?
54:05
If you believe that the person truly cares about your well-being in your life, then they'd want you to say no if you need to say no.
54:15
Imagine if that's the relationship you thought you had, that they were always worried about your feelings, that they actually [clears throat] weren't being real with you.
54:25
And now what kind of relationship is it if you can't be authentic enough actually share your your mind.
54:28
Saying no is is very difficult depending on the context, no doubt.
54:34
What I strive for when it comes to telling people no is to lead with the no first.
54:43
Like let's say I needed to invite you to >> [snorts] >> something or let's say you needed to invite me to something.
54:46
And what do most people say?
54:49
"Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I appreciate it.
54:51
I'd love to, um, but I can't.
54:53
You know, I have all this stuff. I'm so busy. I have work."
54:59
And now it's it's almost like, "Hey look, if you couldn't go, just say you couldn't go.
55:03
I don't need all this extra."
55:03
Now it just sounds inauthentic that you've given me so much. Because why?
55:06
They're afraid that you're going to be disappointed by that. Start with the no first. "I can't make it.
55:15
Thank you for inviting me. I can't make it. Thank you so much."
55:16
And rather than I'd love to, but I can't.
55:18
But has a way of just deleting everything that has come before it.
55:23
And I feel that if I need to say no to something, in my mind it's you want me to say no to this because I won't I'm not going to be my I'm not going to be my best.
55:35
If you really feel uncomfortable about it, then say, "I've made a promise to myself of X.
55:41
I've made a promise to myself that I'm going to be home more often."
55:43
Made a promise to myself that I'm going to use this hour to do X, Y, and Z.
55:47
People don't argue with promises.
55:49
They don't want you to break promises, including promises that you've kept to yourself.
55:55
And saying no is as easy as just saying no.
55:56
It's the no because that gets you in trouble.
55:59
No, it's just you know, it's because I have to go.
56:05
I feed my cat and you know, I have this plant that I water and it's you you you give up all these excuses that end up diminishing your your credibility rather than just saying, "I I can't make it." No. No, thank you. Not for me. Can't do it.
56:23
Sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be.
56:25
I agree with you and I did I had to do that recently as well and you always just want to let someone down and you don't want to you know make them feel bad and you and you're so right.
56:38
I I always turn to just commitments I've made to myself. >> Yeah.
56:42
Because I think because it's true and I think you're right that when you say but it feels like well, I love that but this is more important.
56:47
It's and >> Yeah, and yeah and and when it's a promise to yourself, it's I'm trying to keep this promise to myself and everyone knows how hard it is to keep promises to yourself.
56:58
They'll look they'll encourage you.
57:00
>> It's a real commitment.
57:00
Yeah, it's a real commitment and it's and when it's genuine, it really lands.
57:05
What do you do when the scenario is you say no and you do it in the best way possible and someone's upset with you?
57:13
And now you're towing this line between enabling them to make you say sorry and all this kind of stuff versus holding your standards.
57:21
So, someone asks you to come to a party or to help them out with something, you say, "No, I can't.
57:25
I kept a promise for myself that trying to spend more time at home. Can't travel."
57:31
Now, they try and make you feel bad about it.
57:34
And there's someone that you consider a real friend and they're not even trying to make you feel bad about it.
57:37
They are just upset and they're kind of reflecting that back on you. Do you do anything? What do you do? I'd give it a rest.
57:46
Sometimes fires have to burn out and if there's if it's a true friend, let's say and they just send this text of it's this is just like you.
57:53
Never to a comment and you just I always invite you and you're always late and it's let that die out because when they're dysregulated, you become dysregulated and then that's when you start saying things that you don't mean and saying things that are not going to help the situation.
58:09
So, give it 5 minutes before you choose to respond.
58:13
In fact, if you can, wait until the very next day cuz time has a way of sifting things out of what you need to respond to and you're also giving them some a little bit of grace of saying, "I know they're upset."
58:25
Imagine if I, instead of getting upset with you with everything you said, I looked at it and go, "Man, Jay's stressed out. They're a true friend.
58:32
Hey, I I know you didn't mean that.
58:34
I know you just you're overwhelmed. You're overwhelmed.
58:37
Later on, let's say a day passes, 2 day passes, that's when you need to say, "Your words are not okay with me.
58:45
What you just sent is below my standard for a response."
58:51
You need to be able to to tow that line of saying that, "No, I'm not going to I'm not going to accept that kind of behavior.
58:59
It's okay to be disappointed and it's not okay to talk to me like that."
59:03
Like you have to be able to to choose in conversation, same with boundaries, what am I going to accept?
59:08
What am I going to say absolutely not? Absolutely not.
59:12
It's It's the difference of if you were to yell at me or raise your voice at me, if I had no boundary, it would sound like, "You can't yell at me. Really?
59:20
You think you can yell at you Do you Do you think you know who you're talking to? You can't yell at me."
59:26
versus if I have boundaries, I say, "I don't accept people to speak to me that way.
59:32
I don't respond to that volume."
59:32
Now it's become a me thing. Nothing that you can do.
59:36
And now I've I've controlled I'm controlling the conversation. Now I'm taking it back.
59:40
So if it's a friend, if it's a true friend, they ought to know what you really meant at that moment.
59:46
And again this talks about the capacity for letting somebody show you they're messy. Yeah.
59:51
I know for a fact that as soon as I started living by some of this, my life just totally transformed.
59:57
You just And people actually started to respect, at least the ones that love you and are actually close to you, started to really respect that honesty.
1:00:05
And started to really engage with it in a much more meaningful way where they weren't upset when you were honest because they saw you were always honest. Right.
1:00:14
And you were always real.
1:00:18
And all of a sudden it wasn't surprising anymore, whereas in the beginning when you first start Yeah.
1:00:23
setting boundaries, people will be like, "Oh, wait a minute.
1:00:24
You used to always be available.
1:00:25
Now you're not available." Absolutely.
1:00:27
And and people have this reaction where like, "Hey, wait a minute.
1:00:30
What How do you have plans on a Saturday night?
1:00:31
I'm the one who makes plans for us on a Saturday night."
1:00:35
And then over time people go, "Oh, yeah.
1:00:36
That's just who you are now."
1:00:36
And I think a lot of us go through these transitionary moments in our life where we go from having no boundaries to having boundaries.
1:00:44
We go from having no standards to having standards. >> Yeah.
1:00:48
And when you get caught in the middle, people always point it out and it feels really painful because you are going from someone who was never organized to being organized. >> Right.
1:00:55
But now over time people tend to respect and forget.
1:00:58
If someone is upset at your boundary, it doesn't mean that it's wrong.
1:01:06
It means that it's working.
1:01:06
It's doing the very thing that you have the boundary in place to do.
1:01:09
That that discomfort that you feel, welcome.
1:01:13
Welcome it because that's you choosing to do something different.
1:01:15
And always that moment will pass.
1:01:17
Discomfort, temporary discomfort for long-term peace, sign me up.
1:01:23
>> [laughter] >> Yeah, where where can I sign up? >> Yeah.
1:01:25
And and if you can understand that those moments of discomfort get quicker and get quicker.
1:01:32
And they and all of a sudden they become expected.
1:01:33
And it's not a bad thing.
1:01:36
You have You know how many times as an attorney I've heard arguments between two people or I've made arguments and it's nothing where it's these huge knockdown drag-outs because I've seen a lot of it.
1:01:48
It's not like I'm going to be Oh my gosh, they're yelling.
1:01:50
Oh my god, I you know, I'm we're in this argument.
1:01:54
Because you've seen a lot of it.
1:01:54
ER doctors, you know how many things they've seen?
1:01:58
And then if you were to come with a scrape for them you'd be like, oh, okay, this is this is nothing.
1:02:01
The the small things become nothing.
1:02:03
And that's what you have to remember.
1:02:06
It's it's it's working a different muscle.
1:02:07
And so whenever you feel that angst, take it as a sign for good that you're choosing to do something different. What?
1:02:15
When you work out and you feel sore, oh, I'm okay, I'm growing. That's the sore.
1:02:18
It's it's you using a different muscle that's going to better your life. Yeah.
1:02:26
Jefferson, I want to switch to the workplace because I know your expertise and in the book also goes into that space and I think that's an area where communication is so challenging on so many different levels because now the incentive structure is different, the hierarchy is different. Yeah.
1:02:41
There's all these rules in place that in one sense you don't have in friendships and romantic relationships.
1:02:49
If a coworker keeps interrupting you, how do you shut that down without sounding petty?
1:02:53
I'll let them interrupt the first time. Just the first.
1:02:57
Because we've all seen the people who they interrupt once and they say, "Excuse me, I was I was talking." "Excuse me."
1:03:06
"You know, I'm sorry, where Did you not hear I was talking?"
1:03:07
And everybody in the room goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, okay.
1:03:10
Excuse me, I guess you have what?"
1:03:12
And all of a sudden you become like the diva, all right?
1:03:15
You become the person like, "Oh, I cannot be interrupted."
1:03:17
And sometimes, more often than not, the person who interrupted didn't even realize that they were doing it.
1:03:24
And meant no intention whatsoever.
1:03:26
And some of these people are neurodivergent.
1:03:28
Some people have ADHD where they they it's going to happen.
1:03:34
No bad intention behind it.
1:03:34
And if I just let it happen and let them go on, let anybody who interrupted, no matter what, be able to say what they need to say, then I start again. Why?
1:03:43
Because if they were interrupting me just they weren't going to listen to me anyway. >> Yeah.
1:03:50
They weren't listening anyway.
1:03:51
They were only thinking about what they had to say.
1:03:53
Now, let them get it out and get it all out and show that I have some maturity, that I don't have to be first.
1:03:58
I don't have to have the spotlight right in that moment.
1:04:02
So, after that first interruption, then I start over again exactly where I left off. >> Mhm.
1:04:08
It's not like a okay, I guess, thank you, like that dismissive passive-aggressive.
1:04:12
It's start exactly where you were.
1:04:14
And if they interrupt again, if they interrupt again, that's where I say, "I can't hear you when you interrupt me.
1:04:22
I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
1:04:25
I do the same thing with my kids.
1:04:25
"I can't hear you when you're whining."
1:04:29
All of a sudden, their voice changes.
1:04:31
>> [laughter] >> Every time, you know, it's every time it's if it sends the signal if you want me to listen, there has to be some rules in place.
1:04:40
And so, the I can't hear you when you interrupt me, the I've also used, "I will listen to you when I'm finished."
1:04:47
"If you want me to hear you, you need to let me finish."
1:04:51
It's it's me putting a an if-then, it's a condition. It's logic.
1:04:53
If you want me to listen to you, then you need to let me finish.
1:04:58
And so, in order to get to what they want, they have to abide by the rules. Yeah.
1:05:03
What are the mistakes we make in the workplace that in our communication that make people respect us less? Over-explaining. We say way too much. We say everything.
1:05:15
We say the things you never asked for.
1:05:17
We just keep going and we can't we we can't stop. We don't know why.
1:05:19
You might have asked a simple question and all of a sudden next thing you know they're telling you everything.
1:05:26
Probably sometimes way too personal.
1:05:30
And they realize I can't stop.
1:05:30
Over explaining has a way of diminishing not only your control but also your confidence. Mhm.
1:05:37
When you've got out that conversation you go oh my gosh I just said way too much. Why did I say so much?
1:05:44
It's because it's a it's a deeply rooted fear that you're not enough to be believed.
1:05:48
So I have to over explain.
1:05:48
I have to say more so that you believe me more.
1:05:52
So that you see how smart I am that I do know what I'm talking about.
1:05:56
That's why some people name drop so that you know that I'm important and I'm special and I and I'm worth this this job.
1:06:04
Versus only saying what you need to say.
1:06:07
Over explaining kills the confidence.
1:06:09
What I say is rather than being a waterfall be a well.
1:06:15
Rather than trying to over explain and say all the things at all the time you just hold the knowledge and confidence of your own information and people will come to you and ask questions when they're ready.
1:06:24
The over explaining is a sure way of showing that you're not somebody that can really be relied on in that [clears throat] moment especially when quick decisions hard decisions need to be made. Well said.
1:06:38
I like how when you're sharing these examples there's a layering process almost like there's a step one. Mhm.
1:06:46
And if that doesn't work then there's a step two and if that doesn't work then there's a step three.
1:06:48
It's like there's degrees rather than like this is the right way and this is the wrong way.
1:06:53
It's almost like it feels like there's an escalation. Right.
1:06:56
>> And that's important because I think not everyone who looks like they're against you is truly against you.
1:07:05
And you know in our mind we can often portray people in a certain way.
1:07:08
I read something recently which I loved.
1:07:09
It's called Hanlon's razor, where he said that don't attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity. Mhm. And and I love it. It's so good. It's so good. Yeah.
1:07:22
And it's like, yeah, like sometimes it's um you know, I was thinking about it as like, you know, all the people that you think are stabbing you in the back, they're just clumsy elbows. Yeah.
1:07:30
Like it's just the idea of Yeah, it's most of the time. Yeah.
1:07:34
There of course there are certain cases. Some mosh pit. Yeah, that's right.
1:07:39
And it's like when you start giving when you stop thinking that everyone's against you and trying to stab you in the back, >> Yeah.
1:07:44
then you actually operate better as well.
1:07:46
You can actually respond better as well.
1:07:48
You can actually You can control the situation better because now you're not coming at a reaction.
1:07:52
Two sides of this question.
1:07:55
How do people advocate for themselves in the workplace confidently?
1:08:00
How do you communicate in a way that you can do that?
1:08:04
And on the other side, how do leaders communicate standards and feedback effectively so that people know what how they should grow?
1:08:12
First would be to understand that most likely the person that you're talking that you're talking to has been where you've been.
1:08:17
And we turn it into an us versus them.
1:08:21
When I was a a young associate at the law firm that I was at, we would complain about the partners.
1:08:29
We'd say, "And these partners don't appreciate the uh us. They don't care. They don't understand."
1:08:33
And when I became a partner, the first email I got from an associate, I was like, "These associates.
1:08:39
They don't under- They don't get the problems of a partner."
1:08:42
We turn it into a us versus them.
1:08:44
The employer says, "These employees don't understand."
1:08:47
Employees say, "Management doesn't understand."
1:08:49
When we don't stop to think that they have the same concerns.
1:08:53
They're just as human infallible as us.
1:08:57
So, if you need to advocate for yourself, it helps to be a student.
1:08:59
To have a a learner's mindset.
1:09:03
So, if I have to bring something to you, rather than me sitting down and go, "Okay, listen, I I'm not being paid near enough to be around here and deal with all this."
1:09:14
Instead of that, because from the management perspective, all they're thinking is, "Okay, I Are they leaving? They're out the door?
1:09:21
Okay, what does that cost?
1:09:22
What does that do to overhead?
1:09:22
What does that How is that going to affect >> Mhm.
1:09:24
my business, my all the fears that they have deep within them of what that's going to do to their to their life."
1:09:31
Same thing with the employee, they're feeling Mhm.
1:09:33
Everybody's saying, "I want my ball and I'm I'm protecting me and mine."
1:09:37
In those kind of moments.
1:09:39
But, if I were to sit down and say, "When you were in my shoes, uh what did you find to be the best way of getting a higher salary or getting to your position or finding the How did you find that you'd be more respected in this?"
1:09:55
People love to be asked for advice. Mhm.
1:09:58
Some people make podcasts about them.
1:10:00
>> [laughter] >> You know, like it's it's it but it's true.
1:10:04
If you can go to your superior and say, "I need your advice."
1:10:09
And then talk about the very thing without using your name.
1:10:11
Or use your name, that's fine.
1:10:14
Of the what you're dealing with, all of a sudden it removes the sense of, "Oh no, what is this going to do?"
1:10:19
And they're going to start thinking a thousand miles away. Now, the fear is on.
1:10:23
But, if I were to ask, "You know, what did you find to be the best way to do X, Y, and Z?
1:10:27
When somebody You know, when somebody sent you a rude email, how did you handle that?"
1:10:32
And what it does is actually create bond between you two in remembering hey, both of you are human.
1:10:39
When it comes to leadership, what I like to say is, "Good leaders respond to conversation.
1:10:45
Great leaders make room for it." Mhm.
1:10:48
When I can encourage the difficult conversation in any organization that I go and talk to, I go and touch, I go and teach, and train, the better that organization is going to be.
1:10:59
Most of the time, communication is they have no goal, no system, no values in terms of how do we want to communicate to each other?
1:11:08
You know, there's there's a difference between one restaurant that might just say, "Thank you."
1:11:14
when they give you your food and the other says, "My pleasure." Right?
1:11:18
There's there's a difference.
1:11:18
And and every little word, nuance that you have.
1:11:23
When you can say, "What's our shared vocabulary?"
1:11:27
And that that's leadership and how we're going to communicate. Why?
1:11:28
Because we've set the value and standard of how we want to be not only to the world and the outside, but also within ourselves.
1:11:35
So, am I really caring about you, or am I just hey, thanks for the email con- Like, that's ultimately why I left my first law firm is I I was helping clients that were nice and great, but there was really no connection.
1:11:52
It was just a file to them.
1:11:55
And that that became where eventually the bill comes due.
1:11:57
And it's just yeah, you just you're left empty-handed.
1:11:59
So, it's creating the atmosphere to have difficult conversations and realizing that every opportunity to have a difficult conversation, everybody should be cheering.
1:12:11
Everybody there should be some celebration and some confetti.
1:12:12
When you say, "This is a chance for us to grow.
1:12:17
This is a chance for us to to better it."
1:12:19
because we're okay with if And [snorts] like in sports or in business, they they great leaders will say, "Em- Embrace your failures because it's the failures are the things that are going to ultimately lead you to success."
1:12:32
But we don't we don't do that with communication and difficult conversations.
1:12:36
But that's exactly that's exactly what it is.
1:12:40
Jefferson, I was already a fan and I'm a bigger fan after today. Truly I like you. Absolutely brilliant. Such great advice.
1:12:47
Just truly so practical and real and grounded.
1:12:50
And I truly can't wait for people to get the book the next conversation argue less talk more.
1:12:53
I really feel that this is like right at the core of so many of life's challenges like you could potentially you could argue that every challenge we go through on a daily basis is a communication issue.
1:13:08
And I really believe that this is the book that has the answers and so grateful that you showed up today and just shared so much amazing insight.
1:13:14
We end every episode with a final five. Okay.
1:13:18
These have to be questions that are answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
1:13:22
So most people take one sentence.
1:13:24
No one ever does it in one word.
1:13:27
So Jeff Sandefer these are your final five. Okay.
1:13:29
The first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
1:13:34
You can't look back and hold a straight row.
1:13:37
>> [laughter] >> So like if you're gardening or you can't you can't look back and also Yeah.
1:13:43
create a it's it's like saying you you can't drive a boat by staring at the wake. You can't look back. Yeah. Well said.
1:13:50
Second question what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
1:13:54
Saying nice things will serve you well. Mhm.
1:13:57
Being playing nice will serve you well.
1:14:02
Because if you say that nice serves you well what ends up happening is that you eventually end up serving it. Mhm. You people please.
1:14:11
You say the nice thing at the expense of of being real. Yeah. Question number three.
1:14:18
What is the difference between being real and being harsh?
1:14:22
My intention for your ultimate good. Mhm.
1:14:27
If I truly want the best for you, then I'm going to be okay with saying the harsh things. I won't regret it. Mhm.
1:14:34
But I will regret saying the thing that isn't as real as it should be.
1:14:38
Yeah and it all comes down to intention. Yes.
1:14:39
Sometimes we say we're being real but really we're just being harsh.
1:14:43
Like we just don't really care. Yeah.
1:14:45
And it comes across harsh and someone's like that's a bit harsh."
1:14:48
And you're like, "Well, I'm just being real."
1:14:49
>> Yes, they can use it as a mask. >> Yes, exactly.
1:14:51
>> Yeah, they use it as a mask of when This is just who I am.
1:14:53
I'm just, you know, you can take it or or leave it.
1:14:55
But really, it's when you're harsh, it's most of the time you're just being lazy with your words. >> Yeah.
1:15:01
You know, you're being lazy with other people's feelings, including your own.
1:15:04
Like you should have enough intention behind it of caring about how you package it.
1:15:08
If I were to give you a gift and it still has the receipt and I just hear, "You have it."
1:15:13
versus me actually caring about the package.
1:15:15
I'm putting intention that I I really care about you and how things are delivered. Yeah, absolutely.
1:15:21
Question number four, I'm intrigued.
1:15:24
What's your favorite word in the English language?
1:15:28
>> [sighs and gasps] >> Genuine.
1:15:30
It's to me it brings up just playing baseball and it says genuine leather in the palm of like, it's real. This is what I have. This is who I am.
1:15:37
There's a There's a sense of soul and earthiness to it.
1:15:43
Of when I know when somebody's being genuine and and real with me.
1:15:49
And that somebody It's like a good pair of jeans, you know, it just know I can rely on and depend on it. It's a great answer.
1:15:55
Uh fifth and final question we ask to every guest who's ever been on the show.
1:15:59
If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Talk more. Or you less. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
1:16:08
Yeah, I I I stand by this very real understanding that one day we're going to have a conversation.
1:16:21
You're going to have a conversation.
1:16:21
I'm going to have a conversation with somebody that we love and it'll be the last one we ever get with them and we won't know it.
1:16:30
So, you need to say the thing.
1:16:32
Talk like today matters because it does.
1:16:35
So, you need to talk more.
1:16:37
Relationships don't fall apart usually over what was said.
1:16:41
It's over what was not said.
1:16:44
Same thing with businesses.
1:16:46
It's misalignment doesn't happen because of one big moment.
1:16:48
It happens in a thousand conversations that didn't.
1:16:50
And so when you can talk more and reach more and understand more, the better it's going to be. It's a great answer.
1:17:00
Jefferson Fisher, the book is called The Next Conversation.
1:17:01
Everyone who's been listening and watching, please tag me and Jefferson with the communication tip inside that you're going to use this week.
1:17:09
I want you to actually try and practice this, whether it's at work, whether it's with your partner, whether it's with a parent, whether it's with a friend.
1:17:17
Try and start practicing these tools this week because you'll actually see the difference and then you'll be focused and engaged to learn more.
1:17:26
Follow Jefferson on Instagram and TikTok if you don't already.
1:17:28
And Jefferson, I hope this is the first of many times you come on the show. Same here.
1:17:32
Uh truly so grateful to get to know you today and congrats on everything and truly your your insight's going to change a lot of lives. So thank you so much. I appreciate that, Jay.
1:17:41
It's been It's been a blessing to get to talk to you, man. Thank you, man.
1:17:43
If you enjoyed this conversation, you'll love my episode with the world's leading relationship therapist Esther Perel, where we talk about why your ego is ruining your relationships and how to date more effectively.
1:17:58
>> I think we need to differentiate.
1:17:58
Are you looking for chemistry for a love story or are you looking for chemistry for a life story?